1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Courts, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's crash course Sandy Hook and a Reckoning 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: for gun Makers. Early in twenty twenty two, a multi 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: year ordeal ended for the families of nine victims killed 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: in the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut. 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: Ten years before, one of the country's biggest gun makers, 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: Remington Arms, the manufacturer of the assault weapon used in 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: the murders, agreed to pay seventy three million dollars to 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: settle a lawsuit the families filed against it. It was 11 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: a landmark victory that opened a gap in the formidable 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: legal and financial armour that had long allowed gun makers 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: to avoid accountability for gun deaths. The Remington settlement also 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: offered a road map. If federal and state legislators weren't 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: going to do something about gun violence, well then maybe 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: the courts could. And maybe the courts could if someone 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: came along who was shrewd enough to figure out where 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: gun makers legal vulnerabilities resided. My guest today is Josh Coskoff, 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: the attorney who represented the Sandy Hook families. He's also 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: part of a team of lawyers representing sixteen victims and 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: their parents who suffered because of the shooting in Uvalde, 22 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: Texas in twenty twenty two. The gun used in that 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: school massacre was made by a small Georgia gun manufacturer, 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: Daniel Defense. Josh, Welcome to cross Course. 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Tim. 26 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: Let's start with a little bit of context before we 27 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: get into the meat of the case. Sure, how come 28 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: it's taken so long for gun makers to be held 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,639 Speaker 1: accountable in a court of law? Give us some history 30 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: and context around that. 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: Sure, And it's probably important for your listeners to understand 32 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: that I could not have begun to answer this question 33 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: ten years ago, since I didn't know anything about guns 34 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: or gun litigation. But over the last ten years I've 35 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: accumulated quite a bit of information that I never had previously. 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: The basic problem with getting to gun manufactures has been 37 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: in the age of the mass shooting, at least has 38 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: been the passage of a gun quote unquote immunity or 39 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: shield law called the Protection of Lawful Commerce in ARMSAC 40 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: and that occurred in two thousand and five. 41 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: Shorthand for that is PLACA. If we prefer to right. 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: Placae placa, like the stuff that gets stuck in your teeth, 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: that sour. 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: Second, the legal system, Yeah, it. 45 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: Comes up the works for sure. And you know that 46 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: sort of coincided to him with the advent of the 47 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: mass shootings of what we're seeing today. You know, when 48 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: I was growing up, there were no real mass shootings 49 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: of the nature that happened seemingly with increasing velocity as 50 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: time goes on. But you know, it was unheard of 51 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: really back when I was growing up. And so the 52 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: passage of this law really coincided with sort of the 53 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: dawn of a new age of mass shootings. Well, the 54 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: momentum really occurred ten years before, in nineteen ninety four, 55 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: when the assault weapons ban was passed under Clinton with 56 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: a great help from former President Reagan, who was very 57 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 2: concerned about the proliferation of assault rifles on our streets 58 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: and really got that bill over the finish line. That 59 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: bill was a little bit was flawed in my view, 60 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: and imperfect, but it was some momentum towards sanity. I 61 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: would say that lapsed tim in two thousand and four, 62 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: and then in two thousand and four there was no 63 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: appetite to renew the law. It had a ten year 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: sunset provision, and Congress had flipped and the Iraq War 65 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: was going on, and so we were on a war footing, 66 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: and I think that there was just no political or 67 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: even public appetite for renewing the assault weapons ban at 68 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: that time. People say it wasn't successful, but the truth is, well, 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: we don't really know. You don't know what's been prevented 70 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: from a law. But what we can say is that 71 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: there were no rampant mass shootings occurring on a practically 72 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: daily basis in America at the time. So that's some 73 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: evidence that it was working. And without that rampant evidence, 74 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: you know, people get a feeling of immune to the threat. 75 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: Then you take away the protection and then the threat reoccurs. 76 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: So in that environment, in two thousand and five, Placa 77 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: is passed. Yeah, what did Placa do. 78 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 2: What Placa did was it put a stop to all 79 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: pending lawsuits brought by cities that were dealing with daily crime, 80 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: crime caused by handgun use and abuse and scrupulous gun 81 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: dealers and gun trafficking and things like that. Congress basically 82 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: said miss Palis can no longer sue people can no 83 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: longer sue for harm or death caused by gun violence 84 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: unless you meet these certain criteria which are very strict. 85 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 2: So they had some exceptions, but most of the exceptions 86 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: to the so called immunity were exceptions in name only. 87 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: There were a couple of exceptions that had some teeth 88 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: to them, though, and those were sort of unexplored at 89 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: the time of our Sandy Hook case. 90 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: Let's get to the exceptions later, because you're the one 91 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: who actually ended up exploiting some of the exceptions. But 92 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: while we're talking about PLACA and the enactment of PLACA, 93 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: it's an interesting thing to me because basically, you have 94 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: an entire industry that is getting legal protection from being 95 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: held liable for the consequences of social fallout and deaths 96 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: in this case related to the products they're selling in 97 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: the United States, and it's very rare, almost i would 98 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: say non existent, for an industry in the United States 99 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: to get that kind of protection. Big Tobacco built a 100 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: motor around itself that was eventually breached, but they were 101 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: never specifically guarded from liability lawsuits and the way the 102 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: gun industry was, and few industries are. And I wanted 103 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: you to sort of explain why you think the gun 104 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: industry got that special dispensation. 105 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think that the perception of the gun industry 106 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: is that it's influential and leads to political success. If 107 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: you make the gun industry happy, you make their rank 108 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: and file happy, and you win elections. I just think 109 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: that it's that simple. 110 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: It's just it's a reflection of the incredible political power 111 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: it wheels as an industry it is. 112 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: And you know, I think it's important to understand, like 113 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: with the gun industry, there's perception and reality. The gun 114 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: industry is actually really small industry, and so it was 115 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: not just concerned about losing lawsuits and having to pay 116 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 2: for all the harm it caused. It was also just 117 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: concerned about having to defend them and the costs of defense. 118 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: It's a paltry industry, it really is. 119 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: One other contextual thing I wanted to explore with you 120 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: was the idea of mass shootings and a definition of 121 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: a mass shooting. It's open to interpretation, but one working 122 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: definition says a mass shooting involves four victims killed by 123 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: a firearm in a public space, and some studies have 124 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: indicated that about one third of the world the entire 125 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: world's public mass shootings between nineteen sixty six and twenty 126 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: twelve occurred in the US alone, and it got me thinking, 127 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: in the context of the Sandy Hook case, that every 128 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: time during those many decades there was a mass shooting, 129 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: victims had no recourse really at all, like none at all. 130 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: How do you see that? You know, what was that 131 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: world before Sandy Hook and where are we now? 132 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think you have to think about as the 133 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: world before the immunity first, and then the world between 134 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: the immunity and the Sandy Hook shooting and in pre 135 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: two thousand and five America. First of all, I haven't 136 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: seen that study, but I would guess that there's a 137 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: disproportionate amount of those shootings occurred later as time went on. 138 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: But I will say that there are natural hurdles within 139 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: the existing law forget about the immunity, that make it 140 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: challenging to sue any industry for starters, but more specifically 141 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: to what we're talking about the gun industry, because typically 142 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: people are harmed or injured or killed by guns through 143 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: the intermediate actions of another actor, shooter or a negligent 144 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: actor somebody who just sort of recklessly is shooting a 145 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: firearm or drops a fire and whatever, So there's usually 146 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: an intervening actor, and whenever there's an intervening actor in 147 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: a legal case, it adds a level of complexity because 148 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: you have to reach a third party, so to speak. 149 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: So there were natural impediments to suing gun manufacturer. So 150 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: you ask where were all the lawsuits? First of all, 151 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: there were some, but typically they were lawsuits brought under 152 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: conventional theories of products liability, where guns were accidentally discharging 153 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: or had a defective trigger lock or things like that. 154 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: Handguns is an exception because handguns were used primarily for 155 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: most of the deaths in crime and suicides for that matter. 156 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 2: But it's just there are natural hurdles to overcome to 157 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: sue a gun industry, irrespective of the immunity, and so 158 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: I don't think that it would have been easy for 159 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: us to bring our lawsuit even without PLACA. I think 160 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: it was extra hard with PLACA, but it still would 161 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: have had to overcome natural legal hurdles. 162 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier you had never tried a gun case 163 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: before coming into contact around the Sandy Hook families. How 164 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: did you first intersect with the Sandy Hook families and 165 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: then decide to sue Remington tell me a little bit 166 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: about that progression. 167 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we're talking about progression that took place 168 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: over two years, the decision to sue and how to sue. 169 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: But it was really tim a real chance encounter. I 170 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: was getting a ride to the airport about a week 171 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: after the shooting by a guy who had a friend 172 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: whose daughter was killed at Sandy Hook. And you know, 173 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: you asked me what I did for a living. And 174 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: this is always a question I dread because when you're 175 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: a lawyer and a person asks you what you do, 176 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: you don't know what's going to come next. After you 177 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 2: tell them you're a lawyer. You could be dragged into 178 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: any kind of problem that runs the gamut. You know, 179 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 2: in this case, somebody who lost their daughter at a 180 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: shooting at an elementary school. So it was a really 181 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: it was not a typical discussion. And of course, in 182 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: the aftermath of Sandy Hook, I'm about twenty minutes from 183 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: Sandy Hook and I had young kids at the time, 184 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: so this had already reached me and grabbed me. And 185 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 2: I was thinking, I would love to just help these 186 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: people do whatever I can. I wasn't even thinking about 187 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: a lossit I was just thinking about could we help 188 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 2: them do the probate, Could we help them manage the press, 189 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: could we help them distribute this funds, you know, get 190 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: people off their back, those kinds of things. 191 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: So you rang up some of the family members or 192 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: began finding family members you could speak to. 193 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they sort of you know, I didn't 194 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 2: pursue the family members, that's not how it works here 195 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: in Connecticut. But this guy asked me if he could 196 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: give his friend my number, and his friend contacted me. 197 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: It turned out to be the father of actually one 198 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: of the adult victims, Victoria Sota, who was a first 199 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: grade classroom And you know, from there, I think because 200 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: the families talked and they were in communication, the word 201 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: got out that, hey, there's this lawyer who's just ignorant 202 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: or ignorant enough, but you know, willing to naive enough, 203 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: naive enough there you go to look into our case 204 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: and help us. And they were right about that. 205 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: And so you had to sort of gain their trust, 206 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: talk strategically about the goals, and over time a little 207 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: team sort of coalesced around us. Is that how it happened. 208 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the people that were hard to convince 209 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: were my colleagues here at the office. The families had 210 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: a lot going on, and it was my promise to 211 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: them that I would do all the work and that 212 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: I would not add aggravation to their lives, and that 213 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: they should go about their lives and pretend there's nothing 214 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 2: going on here. In part, I was very leery about 215 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: over promising and leading more disappointment to these families who 216 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 2: had just been shattered by this horrific loss. So it 217 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 2: was not a case where you have a lot of 218 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: interaction with the families in terms of what's going on. 219 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 2: You want to be there for them emotionally, but the 220 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: explanation was really occurring within the confines of our office. 221 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: I had assembled a very small team here, principally a 222 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: fellow we call her, out of yl law school named 223 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: Katie messner Age, and Katie and I sort of were 224 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 2: a two man crew there for about two years, and 225 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: we learned everything we could about the law and everything 226 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: we could about guns. We shot guns, we met with cops, 227 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: we ran the gamut. We really needed to know that 228 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: if we had to sit down with the families and 229 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: tell them there was no case, that we did everything 230 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 2: we could before reaching that conclusion. 231 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: Well, now that we have some of this background. I 232 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: want to take a brief break to hear from one 233 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: of our sponsors, and then we'll be right back to 234 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: talk about the legal strategy then deployed to take on Remington. 235 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: We're back with Josh Koskoff, the attorney who successfully sued 236 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: Remington for its role in the twenty twelve Sandy Hook 237 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: School shootings. Josh, let's talk tactics Earlier. You told me 238 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: about how you met some of the Sandy Hook families 239 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: and then decided to go to court. Start at the beginning. 240 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: When did you first file against Remington? And did you 241 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: know what your strategy was going to be from the 242 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: get go. 243 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, well, it took us two years to build 244 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 2: the case and to get to a point where we 245 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: narrowed down our legal strategies, and we filed effectively on 246 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 2: the eve of this second anniversary. In Connecticut, you have 247 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: two years to file in a wrongful death case, two 248 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: years from the day to death. So we brought it 249 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: up to the wire. And I thought that was important 250 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 2: because when we filed, we wanted to make sure that 251 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: we had assembled the most information and had thought about 252 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: this the most carefully, and had sort of trouble, shot 253 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: our theories and really to take the time. And so 254 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: that's what we did and we got the lawsuit in 255 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 2: under the wire. After that, I mean, the motions started 256 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: to come. There was one motion after another to try 257 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: to derail the case. And that motion practice really ate 258 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 2: up about five years of time. You know. One it 259 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: was removing it to federal court. It was trying to 260 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: get it back to state court. It was filing the 261 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: motions to dismiss our case. It was going up to 262 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: the Connecticuts Supreme Court, and then having to deal with 263 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: the other side's petitioned to the United States Supreme Court. 264 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: Well, and what you call motion practice in the legal 265 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: field is basically like jiu jitsu, right. It's the person 266 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: that you're suing is finding every possible way to change 267 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: the venue, slow things down, get actions dismissed, get file 268 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: counter charges against you, or whatever it might be in 269 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: their responses, and on and on and on. So motion 270 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: practice is a polite, legalistic way of sort of saying 271 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: hand to hand combat. 272 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, or I would say shit storm, you know, 273 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: and you know this shit storm playbook, if you will, 274 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,239 Speaker 2: was developed by other industries have unleashed the same sequential playbook. 275 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: So I wasn't totally shocked. But it's what big influential 276 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: industry does to try to squash lawsuits and to make 277 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: it really difficult, if not impossible, for the little guy 278 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: to take them on for their wrongdoing. 279 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: But had you talked to them before you filed, Like, 280 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: had you thought about just sort of talking reason to 281 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: them and encouraging them to find a settlement or do 282 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: you right by the families to persuade them from going 283 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: to court altogether? Was that not ever going to be 284 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: a route to go? 285 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: Well, I'm laughing because I'm thinking, boy, I was really 286 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: naive when I filed this case. But I don't think 287 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: tim I was that nive that Yeah, yeah, I didn't 288 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: think that if I picked up the phone and talked 289 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: to the CEO of Remington that he would all of 290 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: a sudden fall on the sword and. 291 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: I should just pay them a lot of money. 292 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: Yes, Oh what's your name again? Oh? Yeah, I think yeah, 293 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: sounds good to me, you know. But in a more 294 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 2: serious note, the gun industry is very good at closing ranks. 295 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: They are a very petty with each other, so they 296 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: will sue each other over the drop of a hat. 297 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: In terms of a trademark infringement, since they're all selling, 298 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: you know, the same things, they all work the same, 299 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: and they look the same under the hood and under 300 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: the paint. They will see each other at the drop 301 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: of a hat. But when it comes to closing ranks 302 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: and yielding or giving an inch, the gun industry is 303 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: right there. That's the NRA's playbook, you know, that's the 304 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: National Sports Shooting Foundation's playbook, or the NSSF, which is 305 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: the gun industry's marketing arm. You know, they really have 306 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: They move in lockstep when it comes to lawsuits, and 307 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: it's a give no quarter policy. 308 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: And were you dealing with in house council, outside council, 309 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: both outside council. 310 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: There aren't a lot of people who work in house 311 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: at gun companies. That's one of the things we found out. 312 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: It was really sobering, actually, is that I think Remington, 313 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: which was, by the time we brought the lawsuit, the 314 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: largest gun conglomerate effectively it had ever been built. It 315 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: wasn't a brand Remington, it was a conglomerate, and they 316 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: had one lawyer effectively running the show. Which shows you 317 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: that all that crying about how many gun laws there 318 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: are by the gun industry. Yeah, maybe there's a lot numerically, 319 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: but they don't put a lot of pressure on the 320 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: industry such that, you know, a billion dollar revenue a year. 321 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: Conglomerate like Remington was can have a staff of all 322 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: of one full time lawyer. 323 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: So did you feel outmatched? You know, as you mentioned earlier, 324 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: you'd never litigated a gun case before. Did you feel 325 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: nervous or overwhelmed by any of this? 326 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: No. I. First of all, by the time we filed 327 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 2: the lawsuit, I was convinced we had a winner. And 328 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: that's probably a subject for another podcast, but. 329 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: I podcast about why does Josh Costcoff have such conviction 330 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: about certain things in the face of possible doom in gloom? 331 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm not sure I would be comfortable with 332 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 2: signing my name to that one. But anyway, by the 333 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: time we filed the lawsuit, I was convinced we had 334 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: a strong case, and I knew that we would out 335 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: lawyer then because we are in the soil of bringing 336 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: hard cases in all types of circumstances, and I'm basically 337 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: cut my teeth as a medical malpractice lawyer, and you know, 338 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: medicine and is very fuzzy and you have to make inferences, 339 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: and it's one hundred percent gray air. So I was 340 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: used to making these connections, these causal relationships between a 341 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: wrongdoing and a result. So I felt comfortable with the 342 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: narrative that we were going to tell. I thought it 343 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: was powerful and it was interesting because it came about 344 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: very naturally since I didn't know anything about guns or 345 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: gun laws. I was just receiving information and I was 346 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: collaborating with my team here. You know, we would talk 347 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: about and we say, see, this really doesn't make any sense, 348 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 2: and why is it that these weapons are marketed to 349 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: civilians when they were made for the military, and in 350 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 2: the military you can't get your hands on one of 351 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 2: these things until you've trained for one hundred hours. It 352 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 2: was just a series of connections. So I thought we 353 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 2: had certainly had the just case, We certainly had the 354 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 2: right side of the case, and we had a story 355 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: that really resonated. And the other thing is that because 356 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: they never get to trial. I wasn't worried at all 357 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: about getting to trial against lawyers who have no experience. 358 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: I know what it's like to have no experience trying cases. 359 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 2: It's terrible. You go in there and you get humiliated. 360 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: I got humiliated for the first ten years I practiced law, 361 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: and I still get you routinely humiliated. 362 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: It's hard, well, and this was a long case. How 363 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: did you fund this case? It lasted eight years twenty 364 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: fourteen to twenty twenty two. That's a long time to 365 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: wait for justice and a paycheck, isn't it. 366 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean nobody. We were under no illusions this 367 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: was gonna cost the firm a fair amount of money. 368 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: But it was a case we could not in good 369 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: conscience turn down, especially after we had developed these theories. 370 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: So we thought we would, you know, be an investment 371 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: of a certain amount of money, but it mostly would 372 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: be an investment of time. And so really, well, we 373 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: spent a small fortune. I'm sure what we really spent 374 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: was thousands and thousands of hours of time, and I 375 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 2: always thought that was time well spent. And I wouldn't 376 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: have regretted any of this had we gone down. My 377 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: wife close to the even when we filed the case. 378 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: Apparently I was getting cold feet despite what I'm telling you, 379 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: because I think my wife said, well, you were looking 380 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 2: for a way me to talk you out of it, 381 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: and I'm like, here she goes with revisionist history. But 382 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: she said that she asked me a question. She said, 383 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: if I'm on my deathbed, would I rather look back 384 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: and say, I'm glad we didn't take that case, or 385 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 2: I'm glad we took that case even though we lost. 386 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: And I woke up the next morning and I said, 387 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 2: I knew exactly what we had to do. 388 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: See, the wives always knew. They always say. 389 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: No, not always but because she might be listening to 390 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: this podcast, but most of the time. 391 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: And how would you describe the state of mind of 392 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: the families? There were twenty six victims. Families representing nine 393 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: of those victims ended up with you in your suit. 394 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: Were some too traumatized? Do you want to take this on? 395 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean you have to go back ten years, 396 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 2: and we're staring into like a dark space, like a 397 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: tunnel that's never been explored. And unlike other cases that 398 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: have been tried in true cases, car accidents, airplane crashes, 399 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 2: things that sort of shatter people's lives out of nowhere, 400 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: this is uncharted terror. So it's really hard to make 401 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 2: a fully strong recommendation to families that you're talking to 402 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: at this stage. I was very clear that the odds 403 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 2: were still stacked against us as strongly as I felt 404 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: about the case, and I didn't know what the repercussions 405 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 2: would be for the families. You know, whenever you take 406 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 2: on the gun industry, even if it's for something that 407 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 2: I think gun owners would also find revolting. Like corporate read, 408 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: you do tend to attract people who are hostile. So 409 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: there was a part of it that because the perspective 410 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: payoff of being successful was daunting and the unknown was 411 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: daunting in a bad way, it was hard to make 412 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: a strong recommendation. A lot of people decided they didn't 413 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: want to do it because of that, and I didn't 414 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: want anybody that was sheepish about it to feel pressure 415 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: to be part of the case. And then there were 416 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: people just didn't believe in ensuing a gun industry. You know, 417 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: just because you're a parent of a child that was 418 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 2: shot in a mass shooting doesn't make you politically aligned 419 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: with all the other parents. So there was a lot 420 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: of factors. 421 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: All Right, we're going to pick up with that again 422 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: in a minute. I'm going to take another brief break, 423 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: Josh to hear from a sponsor, and then we'll be 424 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: right back. We're back with Josh Coskoff, the attorney who 425 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: represented Sandy Hook families who sued Remington. Josh, take me 426 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: through the pivotal moments in the court case, say, the 427 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: three or four moments in the case that for your 428 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: definitive or set the course for the outcome, including I 429 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: think your decision to essentially go after them for their 430 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: marketing practices. 431 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: Well. Sure, one of the core pivots occurred early on, 432 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: actually before we filed, when I got an answer to 433 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: the biggest hurdle that I thought we had, which is 434 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: drawing a connection between the wrongdoing of this conglomerate, this 435 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 2: gun conglomerate, and the shooting itself. The marketing itself was 436 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 2: so awful that if I hold it up and showed 437 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: it to you, basically anybody, you would say, that's just irresponsible, reckless, sick. 438 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: And a lot of that started interrupt Josh. But a 439 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: lot of that marketing sort of hinged on appealing to 440 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: the machismo and insecurities of young male gun buyers, right like, 441 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: you will be a real man if you have this 442 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: high powered weapon in your hands, right Yeah. 443 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 2: I mean I described the marketing as really a courtship 444 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: and the suitor was the Gun conglomerate, and they were 445 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: trying to court these young kids because the market had 446 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: become flooded with competition. And so what was known at 447 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: the time is freedom Group Conglomerate had to do was 448 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 2: they had to expand the market because they made a 449 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: big bet on AR fifteens, so they had to start 450 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: pushing AR fifteens on an increasingly younger demographic of user, 451 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: and in doing so, younger demographic in today's America or 452 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 2: millennials at the time were not interested in hunting, so 453 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 2: they weren't going to go out and buy a hunting rifle. 454 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: But what they liked were, you know, military video games, 455 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: and so they used video games and imagery of tactical gear, 456 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: the gear surrounding it to really promote a loan gunman 457 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: sort of violent manliness, if you will, in the possession 458 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: and use of an AR fifteen. And the iconic ad 459 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: that people saw shortly after the shooting, at least it 460 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: said your man card has been reissued with a picture 461 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 2: of an AR fifteen. Very simple, very bold, very salacious marketing. 462 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: So I was pretty clear that you know, in front 463 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: of a Kinnecticut jury, they weren't going to find that 464 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 2: to be reasonable marketing. And another thing that was important 465 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 2: was that Freedom Group was trying to go public back 466 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,239 Speaker 2: in twenty ten, and they issued a report to the 467 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: SEC where they extolled the virtues of the younger demographic 468 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: of user that can accessorize effectively the AIRAR fifteen. So 469 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 2: they saw this market as very promising for their bottom 470 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: line trying to go pug So I thought that was 471 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: also like a sick component to this whole thing, that 472 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: it was purely profit driven. This wasn't driven by some 473 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 2: ideal Second Amendment thing, or these guys could have cared 474 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: less about the Second Amendment. 475 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: And in the state of Connecticut, there wasn't opening legally 476 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: to take a gun maker to court if they either 477 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: had a defective product or they were making false claims 478 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: for their product. Right or am I oversimplifying? 479 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: I mean, are you doing way better than I would 480 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 2: have done interviewing me. It's very similar the conceit was 481 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: of our case. You could sue for unethical, immoral, or 482 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: unscrupulous marketing. And so what they were doing I wouldn't 483 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: necessarily describe it as false advertising, but it was outrageous 484 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: conduct in advertising. And marketing, and in every state is 485 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: concerned about corporate wrongdoing to an extent in their way 486 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: they do business. Connecticut had a bigger opening than many 487 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: and so that gave us the route through this immunity. 488 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: Because PLAQUE is a federal law. LACO was federal law, right, 489 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: so finding a state an opening through state law gave 490 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: you a leg up. 491 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, and PLACA on its own terms. And this is 492 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 2: the one thing about the PLACA immunity. You should know 493 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: that the exception that has the most purchase or teeth 494 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 2: is called the predicate exception. And this is an exception 495 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: that says that you can still sue a gun manufacturer 496 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 2: or seller that engages in conduct that violates a state 497 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: or federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of firearms. 498 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 2: So you can still sue where they violate a state 499 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: or federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of firearms. 500 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: What does that mean? The way I put it is 501 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: that Congress was willing to do the biding of the 502 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 2: gun industry in twenty oh five, but they weren't willing 503 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 2: to go the full distance. They weren't willing to immunize 504 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: the gun industry from engaging in unlawful conduct. So they 505 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 2: carved out this exception for unlawful conduct in the sale 506 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 2: or marketing that's applicable to the saler marketing of fire arm. 507 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: So bottom line, where a gun company breaks a state 508 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 2: or federal law applicable to the sale of marketing with firearm, 509 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 2: you can bring a lawsuit against them. And that's what 510 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 2: we said that Connecticut's unfair trade practice marketing statute was. 511 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to reach a settlement? 512 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: No? I didn't. I didn't think this industry would ever settle, 513 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: and I don't think they would have settled, but it 514 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: had taken so many years, and during this time they 515 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: went bankrupt not once, but twice during our case. So 516 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 2: what that did was then it left an insurance tower 517 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: that was responsible. So just because an insured goes bankrupt 518 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that the litigation ends because they're solvent. Insurance 519 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 2: companies still carry the burden of their obligations. They're not bankrupt. 520 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 2: So we had four insurance companies now defending the case. Effectively. 521 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: They were represented by very smart lawyers, and initially they thought, 522 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 2: I think they could beat us, but the more discovery 523 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: and depositions that we did. I think they realized that 524 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 2: we had a strong case and agreed with us effectively 525 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: that we had a strong case that was going to 526 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: expose them to not just seventy three million, but probably 527 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 2: over a billion dollars worth of harm. But the families 528 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 2: were steadfast. They were not going to take money and 529 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 2: go away. The only thing that they would agreed to 530 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: settle for would be all the available money, but more importantly, 531 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 2: the ability to use and disclose the documents that we 532 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: obtained during discovery to the American people. That was the 533 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: sine quan own of the settlement. And when the other 534 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: side expressed a willingness to do that, even though I 535 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 2: had sort of thought all along that the best place 536 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: to have this argument and to expose this industry would 537 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: be in a trial, people were just saying, Josh, you 538 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 2: got to fold it up. You can't get a better 539 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: deal than this. 540 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: So that's why did the fact that you know, Remington 541 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: went bankrupt twice during the course of your litigation, and 542 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: ultimately it was the insurers that paid, not Remington, Did 543 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: that take any teeth or satisfaction out of the settlement 544 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: for you? 545 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: No, I think a settlement often takes some satisfaction away 546 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: because it's a settlement. This one was unique, though, because 547 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: we started a place where all the so called experts 548 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: said we didn't have a chance. And I might have 549 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: said that if I were looking from the outside end. 550 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: We had accomplished so much and won so many important victories. Also, 551 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 2: you never get a settlement tim where you are able 552 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: to continue to talk about the case or disclose documents 553 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 2: on something so important. And I thought, I can't do 554 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: better in court, because if we try the case and 555 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 2: we win it, it's going to get appealed. It's going 556 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: to be another decade, And so I thought the settlement 557 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: was the right time. The fact that it was for 558 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: insurance comings to me. At first. I would have liked 559 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: the gun conglomerate to fall on its knees and beg 560 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: for forgiveness and explain that they were going to change 561 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: their ways. But like we talked about before, you know, 562 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: this is an industry that just puts its head in 563 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: the sand. They see no relationship whatsoever to what they're 564 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: doing and what all of us are experiencing and seeing 565 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 2: every day in America, and take no responsibility for it. 566 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: So it was too naive a thought, but the fact 567 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: that these four insurance companies that were in the business 568 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: of previously underwriting the gun industry all looked at this 569 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: and said, yeah, we are in trouble financially on this. 570 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: I took great satisfaction from that, because the gun industry 571 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 2: is not going to change, but those that underwrite the industry, 572 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: the arteries that support it. It has to become economically 573 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: risky for corporate America to subsidize this industry, even with 574 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: one dollar, And I thought that on that score, we 575 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: achieved as much as we could possibly do. 576 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: Did it provide closure for the families too? 577 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: I thought it provided a moment of sunshine for the families. 578 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: As a way I described it, I can't speak for 579 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: the families because I didn't lose a child in the 580 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: first grade shooting. You know, that's just an unimaginable loss. 581 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: And I don't know. I'm not sure I believe of 582 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: the possibility of closure from that in that way, but 583 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 2: I will say that these families had met with such 584 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: recurring disappointment, frustration, and this feeling of doesn't anybody recognize 585 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: our side? Doesn't and we recognize what we lost, don't 586 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 2: people understand? This could happen to them. I think for 587 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: at least those moments after we reached the settlement, there 588 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: was a moment of reassurance and sunshine, and I think 589 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 2: it's lasted, and I hope it lasts them and provides 590 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: some sunshine as they go on with their lives for 591 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: the rest of their lives. 592 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: So now you're representing more than a dozen victims of 593 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: the Valdi shooting and their parents. What traits does that 594 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: litigation share or not share with the Sandy Hook case. 595 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 2: Well, on the fact, it's not that complicated. I mean, factually, 596 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: you have a young shooter grew up in the age 597 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: of first person shooter games and this push by gun 598 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: manufacturers to arm a younger and younger male consumer or 599 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 2: what they call an end user. And you have a 600 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: kid who was himself money would have said, was a 601 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: victim of adolescence and marginalization, a poor kid, a kid 602 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 2: who had been abused as a child, with a stutter, 603 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: and a perfect target for the message that was being 604 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,479 Speaker 2: sent in that case by Daniel Defense. And I do 605 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 2: think Daniel Defense's marketing takes bush Master and multiplies it. 606 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: Bush Master was the assault weapon used in the Sandy Hook. 607 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: And the Sandy Hook shooting. Yeah, and you know, so 608 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: if anybody was going to get the message being sent 609 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 2: by Daniel Offense, it was going to be the shooter. 610 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: And you know they had accomplices, They had Instagram. Dana 611 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 2: Defense did what Bushmaster did in the in ye Olden 612 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 2: Days of two thousand and nine, which is they manipulated 613 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: social media and used social media to sort of promote 614 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 2: their weaponry in a way that would have reached this 615 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: very marginalized kid who then perpetrated this unthinkable act much 616 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: like the Sandy Hook shooter did. It's strikingly similar and 617 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 2: to some extent, we've seen this story before. When you 618 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: saw Uvalde and your listener saw and heard about Uvalde, 619 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: I'm sure you thought about Sandy Hook, and I'm sure 620 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: you thought about Parkland, and I'm sure you thought about 621 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: every shooting virtually that we see these days. You probably 622 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 2: guessed it was a young kid that was carrying out 623 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: the shooting at the school, and that's always the case. 624 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: So factually it is very very similar to even more extreme, 625 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: I would say, because the kid was eighteen and two 626 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 2: or three days when he acquired the weapon, which means 627 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: that he had been being courted and promoted that weapon 628 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: for years, right, Because it's a twenty five hundred dollars 629 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: piece of metal. He had to work his way up 630 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: to save up for it. So there's no doubt that 631 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 2: they were marketing to this kid when he was a 632 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 2: young teen, and perhaps even before then. So it played 633 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: out factually the same way our case was brought under 634 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: Connecticut state law. Texas has much different laws, not surprisingly, 635 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 2: and so they have additional. 636 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: Which has been the scene of serial school in public 637 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: shootings over the last few years. 638 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we've seen several high profile mass shootings, 639 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 2: but the law that applies to marketing is different. I mean, 640 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 2: there's some laws that are the same, but you have 641 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: to take your facts and you have to let the 642 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: facts guide you in a direction, and then you have 643 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: to test it against existing law and try different pathways. 644 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 2: It's really a process of exploration. So that's what we're 645 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: in right now with Uvalde. 646 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: Do you think that other gun makers, the big ones 647 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: like Storm, Ruger and Smith and Wesson, have been put 648 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: unnoticed by the Sandy Hook settlement or are they shrugging 649 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: it off. 650 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 2: Well, they appear to be shrugging it off, to be honest, 651 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to know. The answer is a tarch. 652 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 2: Certainly outwardly they're shrugging it off. In fact, the day 653 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: the announcement of the settlement at Sandy Hook, the marketing 654 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: arm of the industry, the NSSF, came out with a 655 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 2: statement basically saying, we're about to put our head in 656 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 2: the sand and here we go. You know you were 657 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 2: going to lose the case. And this wasn't settled by us, 658 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: it was settled by insurance companies, and basically we're not 659 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: going to change. And certainly some of the marketing you 660 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: continue to see doesn't seem to have learned the lesson. 661 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 2: It's a classic choice between profit and responsibility. And to 662 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: compete in this ever competitive market for those last few 663 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: consumers who might want an AR fifteen and haven't been 664 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: tapped for their money, they apparently believe they have to 665 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 2: be more extreme. And it makes sense, right. The more 666 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: extreme and outlandish the promotion, the more aggressive it is, 667 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 2: the more shocking it is, the more likely they can 668 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: distinguish themselves from their competitors. That's what we saw with 669 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 2: Bushmaster when they revitalized this gun and brought in competition 670 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: that all of a sudden became a threat to their 671 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 2: world dominance. They try to out extreme them, and you know, 672 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 2: you still have this competition for I think, what's increasingly 673 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: smaller potential consumers that will want to purchase an AAR 674 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 2: fifteen that haven't already. 675 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: You've touched on some of these things, and maybe you've 676 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: actually already answered the question. But I always want to 677 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: conclude by asking people what they've learned when they're part 678 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: of a major collision like this, And what do you 679 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: know now about suing gun makers that you didn't know 680 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: before suing Remington? 681 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 2: Well, I mean the first thing that I know now 682 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: is that the perception of the gun makers being above 683 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 2: the law is just that. I mean, it's very very 684 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 2: hard to sue gun makers. However, it's also very very 685 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: hard to sue pharmaceutical companies. It's very hard to sue 686 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 2: oil companies, it's very hard to sue neurosurgeons. Lots of 687 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: lawsuits against powerful interests or people are challenging. So that's 688 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: something I've learned and I hopefully people get out of this. 689 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,720 Speaker 2: Another thing I've learned, of course, again is the vulnerability 690 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 2: of this industry. It's a small industry, it's a vulnerable industry. 691 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 2: It won't take many of these lawsuits to get them 692 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 2: to change their ways, because they're going to have to. 693 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 2: And I've also learned that this industry can't exist without 694 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 2: insurance companies willing to ensure them, without banks willing to 695 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: loan the money, without delivery companies willing to ship their 696 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: freaking products. Like AR Fifteen's right, Corporate America has a 697 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 2: role to play. If Corporate America and the people that 698 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 2: work in Corporate America are sick and tired of their 699 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: kids having to go through school shootings, drills, and anxiety 700 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: of getting shot, then guess what they can play a 701 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 2: role in helping solve this problem. So those things are 702 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 2: things that I've learned. 703 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: Josh, the clock has on its course and we're out 704 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: of time. Thanks for joining us. 705 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 2: Thank you, Tim. 706 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: Josh Costcoff is an attorney with cost COF and Beater 707 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Here at crash Course, we believe the 708 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. 709 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 1: In today's crash Course, I learned that if legislatures aren't 710 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: going to do something about guns, maybe the court system will, 711 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: especially if a lot of Moneies evolved. What did you learn? 712 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can tweet at 713 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or me at Tim 714 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,879 Speaker 1: O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also 715 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now and 716 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,919 Speaker 1: leave us a review. It helps more people find the show. 717 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,240 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by the indispensable Anamasarakas, the indispensable 718 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: Moses On Dam and Me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson, 719 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: and we had editing help from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, 720 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: Jeff Grocott, Mike Nize, and Christine Vanden Bilart. Blake Maples says. 721 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: Our sound engineering and our original theme song was composed 722 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: by Luis Gara Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week 723 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: with another Crash Course. 724 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 2: M