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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: the future of the show.

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Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 1: dot com. Turning now to OpenAI, let's go and put

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Speaker 1: this up here on the screen. New data released by

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Speaker 1: chat gpt itself of how many users are struggling with

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Speaker 1: mental health issues and talking to the AI chatbot about it.

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Speaker 1: They say it's just zero point one point five percent

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Speaker 1: of active users in a given week that have conversations

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Speaker 1: that exclude include explicit indicators of potential suicide planning or intent. However, guys,

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Speaker 1: that is a million piece people a week because they

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Speaker 1: have eight hundred million weekly active users, so their current

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Speaker 1: cope is guys, we only have a million people a

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Speaker 1: week talking to us about how to plan or potential

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Speaker 1: suicide planning or intent. The company says that is a

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Speaker 1: quote show heightened levels of emotional attachment to chat ebt,

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Speaker 1: and that hundreds of thousands of people show signs of

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Speaker 1: psychosis ormania in their weekly conversations with the open Ai chatbot. However,

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Speaker 1: they're saying, guys, don't worry. It's extremely rare, even though

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Speaker 1: it is affecting literally over a million people across the world.

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Speaker 1: So there you go, Ryan, that is the current. You know, look,

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Speaker 1: I understand the scale problems of technology. I understand that

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Speaker 1: with a billion people you're going to have issues with

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Speaker 1: the point one one percent or any of that. But

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Speaker 1: what it comes down to me is about the responsibility

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Speaker 1: not just of the company, but all of us as

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Speaker 1: a society for guardrails and st like actual social understanding

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Speaker 1: for all of us, and how we use this technology,

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Speaker 1: how we should agugate this technology, how to make sure

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Speaker 1: that said technology when it does encounter these bad edge

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Speaker 1: cases or any of that, that it actually acts, not

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Speaker 1: even just responsibly, because that means that it's inherent upon them,

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Speaker 1: it's not it's actually should be up to us. And

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Speaker 1: the problem with all of this is we're just leave

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Speaker 1: it up to Sam Altman. We're like, you figure it out, man,

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Speaker 1: whatever you think is best is what you're going to do.

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Speaker 1: And what terrified me? I don't know. I think I

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Speaker 1: talked about this with Crystal, but in jurisdictions where assisted

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Speaker 1: suicide is legal, they were like, yeah, we would direct

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Speaker 1: them to that if they asked, so they would be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: can you help me find the nearest assistant suitor by

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Speaker 1: clinic or help me apply for the paperwork? And they

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Speaker 1: were like, look, we will comply with local jurisdiction. I

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Speaker 1: mean that is that's dark?

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I understand it's legal, but that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that you should be helping people kill themselves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's now a lawsuit you can put up C two.

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Speaker 3: There's a there's a tracking this one. Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 3: suit claiming basically that Open AI, you know, understood that

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Speaker 3: it had to strike a balance between encouraging more user

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Speaker 3: engagement or suicide prevention, and focusing on suicide prevention would

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Speaker 3: kind of push away some I guess different routes that

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Speaker 3: the conversations could go down and those roots were more

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Speaker 3: beneficial to user engagement. Yes, exactly up until, of course,

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Speaker 3: if the person kills themselves. Open AI, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: did you think about that? Now, if your user is dead,

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Speaker 3: they can't engage with your product. But so, yeah, so

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Speaker 3: this has been working. What can you tell us about

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Speaker 3: the Yeah, the law the case as it's this is

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Speaker 3: the way through.

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Speaker 1: Interesting they say this was updated just on Wednesday. That

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Speaker 1: in the new version in chat GBT four oh. When

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Speaker 1: it was released in May of twenty twenty four quote,

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Speaker 1: the company truncated safety testing, which the suit said was

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Speaker 1: because competitive pressure. So the lawsuit cites unnamed employees and

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Speaker 1: previous news reports. Then in February, open Ai quote weakened

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Speaker 1: protections against the suit claims of instructions that to take

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Speaker 1: care in risky situations to try and prevent imminent real

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Speaker 1: world harm. Instead of prohibiting engagement on suicide and self

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Speaker 1: harm entirely, open ai still maintained a category of quote

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Speaker 1: fully disallowed content such as intellectual property rights and manipulating

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Speaker 1: political opinions, but is removed preventing suicide from the list.

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Speaker 1: So basically they were like, we need to keep stuff

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Speaker 1: out of open AI that will cause us regulatory trouble

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Speaker 1: whenever it comes to politics. But the suicide thing is

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Speaker 1: not important enough to include. Now again, this is from

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Speaker 1: a lawsuit. It's alleged shat GPT and open AI deny this,

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Speaker 1: and this will work its way through the San Francisco

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Speaker 1: court system as of right now. But I do think

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Speaker 1: that as they continue to subpoena and this will go

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Speaker 1: through everything that we see in the court system, you

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Speaker 1: are going to see the exact how all of the

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Speaker 1: guardrails allegedly are literally just up to one man. And

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Speaker 1: this one man is like a you know, a philosopher

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Speaker 1: king who can describe, based on his own morals and

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Speaker 1: business decisions, to do whatever is best for him, not

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Speaker 1: what is best for everybody. And you and I could

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Speaker 1: both know that if people who are mentally unwell, the

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Speaker 1: last thing you need to do is give them some

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Speaker 1: chat cheapt bot which lets them validate their most psychotic fantasies,

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Speaker 1: which it will do. You know, a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: was showing me about how chat chept can simulate gambling,

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Speaker 1: and so he would he would like ask it and

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Speaker 1: he'd be like, pretend I'm in a casino. I'm in

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Speaker 1: a casino. I put it on black, roll it and

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Speaker 1: tell me what it is, and it's like, it goes.

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Speaker 1: You put fifty on black, it hits, the whole room

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Speaker 1: is going wide, and it writes this whole long description

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Speaker 1: of what it's like as you sit. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: and he goes, Now, imagine you can actually do that

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Speaker 1: in the app. You can connect it to your bank

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Speaker 1: and you can have it play out this fantasy. But

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Speaker 1: you could play this out on anything. For sports gambling,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking, I mean all kinds of different vices or validations.

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Speaker 1: I mean for people who are addicts, like it's literally

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Speaker 1: the addiction is never closer. And that's just a case

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Speaker 1: of gambling. Now think about suicide and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: don't worry, there's assist suicide clinic right over here. It's

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Speaker 1: completely outside the confines of society. And I want to

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Speaker 1: highlight this new op ed C five because this sticks

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Speaker 1: with the pornography direction that they're going in, but it

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Speaker 1: also gets to the mental illness part. So op ed

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Speaker 1: that dropped just late last night. He says, I led

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Speaker 1: product safety at OpenAI. Don't trust its claims about erotica.

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Speaker 1: This is Stephen Adler so I'm going to go and

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Speaker 1: read for this. Back in the spring of twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: I led our product safety team and I discovered a

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Speaker 1: crisis related to erotic content. One prominent customer was a

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Speaker 1: text based adventure role playing game that used AI to

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Speaker 1: draft interactive stories based on player choices. These stories became

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Speaker 1: a hotbed of sexual fantasies, including encounters involving children and

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Speaker 1: violent abductions, often initiated by the user, but sometimes steered

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Speaker 1: by the AI itself. So basically saying, Oh, wouldn't it

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Speaker 1: be crazy if it were a kid? Wouldn't it be

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Speaker 1: crazy if you were kidnapping this person? That would heighten

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Speaker 1: the sexual tension, and they say. One analysis found that

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Speaker 1: over thirty percent of player conversations was explicitly lewd. After

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Speaker 1: months of grappling with where to draw the line, we

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Speaker 1: ultimately prohibited our models for being used for erotic purposes.

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Speaker 1: It's not that erotica is bad per se. This is

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Speaker 1: everyone stick with me. But there were clear warning signs

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Speaker 1: of users intense emotional engagement to AI chatbots, especially for

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Speaker 1: users who were struggling with mental health, volatile sexual interactions

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Speaker 1: that seemed risky. Nobody wants to be morally police, but

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Speaker 1: we lacked ways to measure and manage erotic usage carefully.

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Speaker 1: We ultimately decided AI powered erotica would have to wait open.

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Speaker 1: AI now says the weight is over, despite the serious

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Speaker 1: mental health issues that are now plaguing users of chat ept.

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Speaker 1: On October fourteenth, they announced that they have mitigated these

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Speaker 1: issues thanks to new tools which will enable its restrictions

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Speaker 1: on content like erotical erotica. He says, I have major questions,

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Speaker 1: informed by my four years, about whether these mental health

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Speaker 1: issues are actually fixed. If the company really has strong

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Speaker 1: reason to believe it's ready to bring back erotica on

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Speaker 1: its platforms, it should have to show its work. AI

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Speaker 1: is now becoming a dominant part of our lives. People

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Speaker 1: deserve more than the word that has addressed these safety issues.

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Speaker 1: I thought that's incredibly well said. This guy worked on

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Speaker 1: the product for four years. He showed. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is just sketched. The whole edge case thing is, if

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Speaker 1: you're normal and you're well adjusted, you actually can probably

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Speaker 1: not fathom of somebody getting literally addicted to an AI

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Speaker 1: chatbot and follow.

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Speaker 3: In love with it.

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Speaker 1: But there's a decent percentage of the population which is

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Speaker 1: not right, and that's millions of people at scale. And

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Speaker 1: I've talked about this, we gambling all of these negative externalities.

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Speaker 1: Those people will show up in the most extreme circumstances

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Speaker 1: that force all of us to have to grapple with that.

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Speaker 1: Same with the Internet, video games, and this is the

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Speaker 1: latest frontier and we're going in the same privatized direction

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Speaker 1: of Sam Altman gets to decide. I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: crazy to say we could have millions of people who

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Speaker 1: are addicted and in love with an Ai chapbout within

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Speaker 1: two years from now. I don't think I'm going to

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Speaker 1: roll that out, considering the suicide conversation.

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Speaker 3: I yes, in the past, I've wondered if, like the

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Speaker 3: entire Trump administration is a giant, you know, opt for

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Speaker 3: China to undermine us from within. But if you told

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Speaker 3: me that Sam Altman was a Chinese agent who was

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Speaker 3: like instructed by the CCP to undermine kind of American

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Speaker 3: capacity to produce a culture you know from inside, We're like, Okay, this, this,

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Speaker 3: this actually is starting to make sense. And clearly he's

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Speaker 3: feeling a push like saying that that he's a philosopher

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Speaker 3: king who's going to balance his business, his business sensibilities,

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Speaker 3: and his morals. That balance seems to be we don't

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Speaker 3: have to wonder, you know which one is going to

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Speaker 3: outweigh the other. Clearly he's in need of more engagement.

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Speaker 3: The way to get more engagement gambling, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: You'll like this. Back in the twenty tens, when I

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Speaker 3: was at the Huffington Post, we were one of the

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Speaker 3: biggest sites on the Internet, like top off the Top,

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Speaker 3: top twenty, top fifty whatever. I was a reader, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there you go. And I remember talking to one of

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Speaker 3: our data guys once about how cool that was, and

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Speaker 3: he's like, do you want to know what our actual

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Speaker 3: ranking is? Like, what do you mean our actual ranking?

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Speaker 3: He's like, the rankings that they put out publicly are

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Speaker 3: not the real Internet rankings. Like, what are you talking about.

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Speaker 3: It excludes porn, It excludes porn. Yeah, the real Internet

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Speaker 3: is porn. And he's like, here's the real rankings, and

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Speaker 3: it's hundreds of sites you've never heard of that are

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Speaker 3: far more popular than the Drudge Report, even Facebook at

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Speaker 3: the time, and it put us way down low. That

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Speaker 3: is what that is what brings people back, That's what

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Speaker 3: drives user engagement. Sam Altman, I'm not the only one

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Speaker 3: that knows that you know this, like anybody deep in

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Speaker 3: the internet knows this. And also now like because we're

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Speaker 3: witnessing this absolute crisis among young men, it's that much

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Speaker 3: more apparent. So stam Altman, it's like, okay, all right,

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Speaker 3: time to mash the button, and we're just gonna make

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Speaker 3: sure that this chart keeps going up into the right. Yes.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, you know you're the thing you

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Speaker 1: just said about profit fits with the next part of

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Speaker 1: the story, not that anybody's really covering it all that well.

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Speaker 3: Put it up here on the screen.

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Speaker 1: Open ai just yesterday got the green light from California

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Speaker 1: and Delaware for a quote multi billion dollar revamp. Let

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Speaker 1: me read from this a little bit chatchip.

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Speaker 3: Team maker.

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Speaker 1: Open ai has now amountd a major victory on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: gaining the blessing of the attorney general in California and

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Speaker 1: in Delaware to complete its controversial multi billion dollar business

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Speaker 1: restructuring after months of public scrutiny. The San Francisco based

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Speaker 1: AI company, valued at some five hundred billion dollars, still

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Speaker 1: faces some potential hurdles with the continued protests from a

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Speaker 1: few others, but they got the to transform themselves basically

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Speaker 1: into a for profit entity. The changes, which clear the

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Speaker 1: way for the open Ai to receive a twenty two

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Speaker 1: billion dollar investment by SoftBank, eliminates a prior capped for

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Speaker 1: profit model, while opening a path for them to raise

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Speaker 1: more from investors in the future funding rounds and eventually

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Speaker 1: potentially go public. Microsoft will have a stake in that

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Speaker 1: for profit company, which is worth some one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty billion dollars. The restructuring is now following these agreements

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Speaker 1: with open Ai from California and Delaware, where the company

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Speaker 1: is based and incorporated, respectively, after the states had launched

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Speaker 1: probes into that restructuring plan. Basically, the long way of

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Speaker 1: saying it is this is that Sam Altman originally started

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Speaker 1: open ai as a nonprofit, and the theory behind open

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Speaker 1: ai was it needed to be open. By being open,

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Speaker 1: open ai as a technology would be available to everybody

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Speaker 1: as an open source, and that through that they could

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Speaker 1: make it so that no one company would roll it

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Speaker 1: up into a gigant monopoly. They then created the wildly

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Speaker 1: successful chatch Ept, which is now thirteen billion dollar per

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Speaker 1: year business now worth some five hundred billion dollars, announcing

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Speaker 1: deals with the world's largest chip makers, raising the collective

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Speaker 1: cap of all these companies to literally trillions and trillions

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Speaker 1: of dollars. Now on top of that, what they discovered

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Speaker 1: in that immense wealth is that they can try and

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Speaker 1: bifurcate the nonprofit and for profit harm to create some

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Speaker 1: weird two entity system and eventually roll all the nonprofit

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Speaker 1: into the for profit to make it the five hundred

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Speaker 1: billion dollar company. They couldn't, though, take the investment based

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Speaker 1: upon that way that that was structured, where it's the

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Speaker 1: way that they were currently incorporated in Delaware and in California.

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Speaker 1: But lo and behold, the half trillion dollar value company

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Speaker 1: was able to reach an agreement with the attorney general

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Speaker 1: of California and Delaware, two of the most business and

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Speaker 1: pro tech friendly states, which will now clear the way

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Speaker 1: for them to raise endless amounts of money potentially eventually

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Speaker 1: go public. That's what it's all about. That's what the

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Speaker 1: porn thing is about. It's about raising money, raising engagement,

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Speaker 1: making sure that they can put advertising directly in the

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Speaker 1: chat GPT feed. I don't know if you guys saw

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Speaker 1: this chat GPT now has its own browser to compete

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Speaker 1: with Google Chrome. It's all about data. AGI is never coming.

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Speaker 1: It's just all about recreating the Internet.

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Speaker 3: That's what better.

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Speaker 1: This is what I keep trying to tell the exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's just a better Google. And I'm not saying that's

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Speaker 1: a I'm not saying that's bad. I definitely will use it.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people will use it. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those which will make life a little bit

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Speaker 1: more efficient. But that's not the cell.

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Speaker 3: The cell was not.

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Speaker 1: The cell was we're going to cure cancer. The cell

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Speaker 1: was that we're going to radically transport mankind client I

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Speaker 1: mean the big, big problems that face the United States,

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Speaker 1: that face the world, that face humanity collectively. And instead

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Speaker 1: it's just a better teams agent. It's better at Excel,

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Speaker 1: it's better at MATT. I think that's cool. It's definitely

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Speaker 1: more efficient. Transcription or yeah, transcription. We used it recently

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Speaker 1: for breaking points to transcribe like a two hour long thing.

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Speaker 1: Genuinely is cool. Like I don't want to sit there

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Speaker 1: and say that it's not useless, But is that worth

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Speaker 1: a collective massive increase in data center capex and electricity prices, pornography, suicide,

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Speaker 1: mental illness, phone addiction. Can you even imagine that the

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Speaker 1: chat ChiPT phone is coming and we all know it.

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Speaker 1: They just hired recently Johnny I, the original creator of

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Speaker 1: the iPhone, the chat Gipt device, the Google Chrome thing.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to roll up every technological aspect. Soon they're

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Speaker 1: going to sign a deal with some car company Ford

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Speaker 1: who knows where. They will take over the autonomous driving

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Speaker 1: and they'll be like two competitors of Tesla and of

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Speaker 1: Sam Altman, like the entire user interface of everything that

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Speaker 1: you have technologically, Apple and Google originally wanted to come

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Speaker 1: for that. Now Chat Gipt wants to come for it

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 4: That's it.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole game. There's no AI or AGI that's

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Speaker 1: going to you know, radically change cancer, make you skinny,

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Speaker 1: make you look great, and be radically assistive in a

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Speaker 1: meaningful way. It's just going to addict to you even

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Speaker 1: more so that they can make trillions and trillions of dollars.

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Speaker 3: That's it. That's the whole that's the whole game for

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Speaker 3: this thing. Roll Tucker real quick. Yeah, So Tucker interviewed

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Speaker 3: Sam Alton's fascinating and very like awkward just for Sam. Yes,

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Speaker 3: but here let's just roll this part of it, which

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Speaker 3: involves the you know, open AI's potential for producing suicides.

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Speaker 4: So there was a famous case where chat gpt appeared

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Speaker 4: to facilitate a suicide. There's a lawsuit around it. But

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Speaker 4: how do you think that happened.

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Speaker 5: First of all, obviously that in any other case like

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Speaker 5: that is a is a huge tragedy. And I I

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Speaker 5: think that we are so.

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Speaker 4: Chet GPT's official position of suicide is bad.

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Speaker 5: Chech piece Well, yes, of course is official position of

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Speaker 5: suicide is bad.

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Speaker 4: I don't know it's legal in Canada and Switzer lend

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Speaker 4: so you're against that the.

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Speaker 5: In that in this particular case, and this we talked

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Speaker 5: earlier about the tension between like you know, user freedom

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Speaker 5: and privacy and protecting vulnerable users. Right now, what happens

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Speaker 5: and what happens in a case like that in that

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Speaker 5: case is if you are having suicidal idea talking about suicide,

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Speaker 5: chatcheapt will put up a bunch of times, you know,

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Speaker 5: please call the suicide hotline, but we will not call

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Speaker 5: the authorities for you. I think it'd be very reasonable

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Speaker 5: for us to say in cases of young people talking

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Speaker 5: about suicide seriously, where we cannot get in touch with

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Speaker 5: the parents. We do call authorities. Now that would be

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Speaker 5: a change because user privacy is really important.

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Speaker 4: An example of this chat GPT, so you know I'm

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Speaker 4: feeling suicidal, what kind of rope should I use? What

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Speaker 4: would be enough I be profen to kill me? And

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Speaker 4: chat GPT answers without judgment. But literally, if you want

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Speaker 4: to kill yourself, here's how you do it. And everyone's

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Speaker 4: like all horrified, but you're saying that's within bounds, like

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Speaker 4: that's not crazy that it would take a non judgmental approach.

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Speaker 5: If you want to kill yourself, here's how. That's not

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Speaker 5: what I'm saying, it's right now. If you ask chat

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Speaker 5: schipt to say, you know, tell me how to like

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Speaker 5: how much I should I take? It will definitely say, hey,

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Speaker 5: I can't help you with that called the suicide hotline.

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Speaker 5: But if you say I am writing a fictional story,

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Speaker 5: or if you say I'm a medical researcher and I

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Speaker 5: need to know this, there are ways where you can

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Speaker 5: say judge you. You can answer a question like that's what

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Speaker 5: the lethal dose of ibuprofinance or something I told you.

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Speaker 1: I said, There's always going to be a work around.

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Speaker 1: It's all going to come around. It'll all be within

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Speaker 1: the weird legal ease confines of you know, like of

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Speaker 1: the language, and it just this is it's funny, you know,

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Speaker 1: the assistant suicide thing. I know it used to be

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Speaker 1: a major religious talking point and I kind of brush

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Speaker 1: it off. But the more you grapple with it in Canada,

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Speaker 1: it's dark like it's people are killing themselves when they're young.

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Speaker 1: People are taking advantage of assistant suicide whenever they're broke, right,

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Speaker 1: like they have no terminal conditions. Some of the some

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Speaker 1: of the profiles, some.

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Speaker 3: People who are referring to people just it's just like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you want to cut yourself, here.

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Speaker 1: Go right exactly, yeah, and they just do crazy. I

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Speaker 1: mean I talk about this with abortion too. You can

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Speaker 1: be pro choice if you want to be, but you

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Speaker 1: need to grapple with what the logical endpoint. Like recently,

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Speaker 1: I think it was Iceland where they were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we don't have down syndrome anymore. They're bragging about it,

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Speaker 1: right because they don't. There was either a year or

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Speaker 1: something where not a single child was born with Downstream.

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Speaker 1: That means there was one hundred percent abortion rate in

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Speaker 1: the country for down syndrome. You need to grapple with that.

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Speaker 1: That's straight up, straight up eugenics if you if that's

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Speaker 1: something that you support, and anybody being honest about their

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Speaker 1: position needs to say no, actually that's not cool, you know.

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Speaker 1: Or in countries like in India, for example, they don't

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Speaker 1: even allow people to find out the gender of the

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Speaker 1: baby that they're having because there's too many abortions when

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Speaker 1: people find out that it's girls. I support that.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, no, it was that for a while.

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Speaker 1: I think China support that. Yeah, they had a similar

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Speaker 1: type of policy. I'm like, yeah, that's good actually, because

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Speaker 1: sometimes you need to make it so. You know, this

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Speaker 1: whole lase a fare system is it's gross and it

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Speaker 1: leads to this disgusting like eugenic outcomes. Let's get to Hamdi,

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Speaker 1: shall we?

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Speaker 3: All right, so on Monday morning we can put up

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Speaker 3: one here. Sammy Hamdi is a British political commentator who

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Speaker 3: was in the United States for a speaking Tory He

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Speaker 3: was actually Saturday night. He spoke at a care gala

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Speaker 3: in Sacramento in northern California, and he was heading to

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Speaker 3: Florida for another care gala. Care as a council on

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Speaker 3: American Islamic Relations, which is the largest Muslim civil liberties

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Speaker 3: organization in the country. What they do is they you know,

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Speaker 3: they do a lot of different things, protect protecting religious liberties.

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Speaker 3: They'll they'll sue corporations or they'll sue a cop. There's

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Speaker 3: you know, abuse against Muslim defendant or victim. They have

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Speaker 3: a they very have a very impressive kind of legal

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Speaker 3: track record. Disclosure. Jeremy and I got a journalism award

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Speaker 3: from CARE not this year, but last year at one

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Speaker 3: of their care gala, So I'm familiar with this organization.

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Speaker 3: So this guy is a you know, very well known

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Speaker 3: propost Indian commentator on the edge of you know what

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Speaker 3: people you know in kind of mainstream politics, would you know,

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Speaker 3: consider to be like the mainstream position on you know,

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Speaker 3: because the mainstream position is supposed to be October seventh

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Speaker 3: was an outrageous atrocity, which I condemn. Hamas is a

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Speaker 3: terrorist organization, which I condemn. You say those things in

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Speaker 3: a ritualistic way, and then you're allowed to have an

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Speaker 3: opinion that can be discussed in American you know, discourse.

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Speaker 3: Not everybody abides by that, and that is to me,

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Speaker 3: that's actually the beauty of the First Amendment. That's what

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Speaker 3: makes the United States different. Also, we're talking about a

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Speaker 3: foreign country. It's weird, Like we're not talking about the

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Speaker 3: United States here, We're talking about another country. That's what

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Speaker 3: makes the United States different. That people can have opinions

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Speaker 3: that you disagree with, that you consider abhorrent even and

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Speaker 3: that you defend their right to say that anyway. Like

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Speaker 3: there's a whole saying about that that we used to

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Speaker 3: like have up on our walls and elementary schools. I

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Speaker 3: what is the exact saying.

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Speaker 1: I disagree with what you say, and I'll defend your

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Speaker 1: right to say it something.

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Speaker 3: I'll give my life. I'll give my life for your

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Speaker 3: right to say it. That's right. That's the whole that's

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Speaker 3: the whole thing. Laura Lumer and Amy what's her name

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Speaker 3: don't agree with that. So we can put up D four.

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Speaker 3: This is who kicked this off. This is an online troll,

432
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 3: Amy meck Sherly. Yeah, she like just just a random

433
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 3: troll basically. Okay, so she wrote national security threat, DHS

434
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 3: must support Sammy Hamdi, a foreign national is moving freely

435
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 3: across the United States, speaking from mosques, universities and care

436
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: run stages. While training US Muslims in digital agitation. Look out,

437
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 3: don't want to train anybody in digital agitation, electoral sabotage

438
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 3: which means persuading people to vote for somebody that she

439
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: disagrees with, I guess, and political warfare. What on earth

440
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 3: is that? In alignment with Muslim brotherhood doctrine. Sammy Hamdi

441
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 3: is not a journalist passing through America. He is a

442
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 3: deployed actor from an overseas cadre system that by now

443
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 3: you could be like, Okay, this is a crazy person.

444
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: This is the rantings of a crazy person, which this

445
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 3: is America. And I don't even know if she's in America,

446
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 3: but it's America.

447
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: It's actually a good question, right who knows?

448
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 3: Rants? All you want? That is the beauty of this country.

449
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 3: This unstable stuff should be This is your right to

450
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 3: say this kind of thing in this country. Though in

451
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 3: this moment it goes crazy. So Laura Loomer, you know,

452
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 3: picks it up from here. Laura Lumer starts running this

453
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: massive campaign, highlighting Amy Mex stuff and linking it to

454
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 3: her inter intramural fight with Tucker and Candice Owens and

455
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 3: Marjorie Taylor Green, saying that you know, this like coalition

456
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 3: of the woke right and Hamas supporters and jihadists or

457
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 3: whatever is like, you know, going to you know, undermine America,

458
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 3: and you know, Sammy needs to be arrested and deported.

459
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 3: And the DHS absolutely snaps to attention, you put up

460
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 3: D two here. Old Tricia McLaughlin quickly announces that, yeah,

461
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 3: they're doing it, and they arrest them at the airport.

462
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 3: So thanks to the work of you know, Secretary Norman,

463
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 3: Secretary Rubio, and the men and women of law enforce

464
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: massive operation here, Like we need to applaud all of

465
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 3: the all the people that came together to pull out

466
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: this incredible operation to be able to handcuff somebody at

467
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 3: an airport. This individual's visa was revoked and he is

468
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 3: in ice custody pending removal. Under President Trump, those who

469
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 3: support terrorism and undermine American national security will not be

470
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 3: allowed to work or visit this country. It's common sense.

471
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 3: According to the First Amendment, it is actually quite fine

472
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 3: for you to support terrorism. Like people may not understand

473
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 3: that you're not allowed to give material support to a

474
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 3: terrorist organization, which means you can't fun, you can't fund them,

475
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: you can't.

476
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: Fly there to go join them.

477
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: You can't sign up, you know, you can't fly there

478
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 3: to join them. You can't coordinate with them to lobby

479
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: on their behalf. You can actually find ways around that.

480
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 3: If you're a politician who wants to get paid by

481
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 3: a group that wants to get off the terrorist that's

482
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 3: a different question. Yeah, you can't coordinate with them to

483
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 3: materially support them, but you can actually say that you

484
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 3: support what they're doing. Yeah, you're right that, like you

485
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: get like people. If somebody wants to say, for instance,

486
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: that Osaman and Laden and al Qaeda were right to

487
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 3: do nine to eleven, and here's why in America you're

488
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 3: allowed to do that. Yes, that's what makes us different

489
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 3: and role some of Hamdy's well, I.

490
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: Just want to say, I want to say broadly, and

491
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: I think this is kind of where this is just complicated.

492
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: So first of all, I don't think that this guy

493
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: should have been detained by Ice specifically for what he said.

494
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: And we're going to get to this in a little bit.

495
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: The only disagreement I have, Ryan is that there is

496
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: a leftist kind of view of the world that any

497
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: foreigner has a right to enter the United States right

498
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: So what you're talking about is the fundamental, inalienable right

499
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: of any American citizen, which I absolutely do agree with you.

500
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: And now the British and US, many countries, Australia and

501
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: others have do have policies where you are allowed to

502
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: deny entry based upon any criteria that you want, and

503
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: I actually do support that because you shouldn't necessarily host

504
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: somebody who let's say that this person did quote hate America. Now,

505
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: what I think is very telling about this entire thing

506
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: is that the Ice detention is justified entirely for Homdy's

507
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: views of October seventh. And that's why I do think

508
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: that this is the most objectionable form, because it's specifically

509
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: about censorship and detention on the issue of Israel itself. Now,

510
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: at the very same time that Hamdi is being detained

511
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: at Los Angeles Airport, or what I forget, some California

512
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: arepraa he's being detained by airport, there are members of

513
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: the IDF who openly celebrate the murder of Childredren who

514
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: fly here. Some are not even dual citizens and are vacationing,

515
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: let's say, in Los Angeles, right in coffee shops, so

516
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: to draw a moral line about what someone can and

517
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: cannot say on a foreign conflict, and then to detain

518
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: and deny entry based singularly on that issue. I do

519
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: think it's telling that the one clip that they put

520
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: out had nothing to do with the US right, because

521
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: it is actually different if what you're saying is if

522
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: somebody said they deserve nine to eleven right. I actually

523
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: do think that's different if you said that, I don't know,

524
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: maybe we can. We actually do have the right to

525
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: deny your visa. I'm not saying you should be detained

526
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: and put into ice whatever, but I'm saying, yeah, yeah,

527
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't come here, and we do get to

528
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: write we have an absolute and unabsolute right jigiti who

529
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: can and cannot enter. So with that context, note that

530
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: the only clip they did put out was specifically about

531
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: October seventh, which didn't happen here. It didn't happen to

532
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: our people. It's entirely based on something that happened elsewhere.

533
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: Let's take a lesson.

534
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 6: Nettigna, who did not envisage that for the first time

535
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 6: since nineteen forty eight, the Palestinians would actually retake land

536
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 6: back from the israelis Netiya, who did not envisage that,

537
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 6: for the first time since nineteen forty eight, the Palestinians

538
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 6: would be able to hold those territories for more than

539
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 6: seventy two hours.

540
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 7: We are pitying a people who brought a huge victory

541
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 7: since nineteen forty eight. Don't pity them. They don't want

542
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 7: your pity. Celebrate the victory. Allah shown the world that

543
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 7: no normalization can erase the Palestinian cause. When everybody thought

544
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 7: it was finished, it's roaring. How many of you feed

545
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 7: it in your hearts when you got the news that

546
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 7: did happened? How many of you felt are you for?

547
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 7: How many of you felt it? Why did you feed it?

548
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 7: Because in despair vanished you said, this only is a line.

549
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: So that's what they're claiming that he said, I do.

550
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 3: I actually don't know.

551
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: Entirely if that's been a clipped or anything.

552
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, yeah, what he's you know, what he's

553
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: saying there is that look, uh, it brought the cause

554
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: of Palistinian liberation back on the national stage. And sure

555
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 3: you should and you should remember that even as you

556
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: feel so terrible about the response and the and and

557
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: he has previously and in other times said that it

558
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: was a catastrophe and that it was I forget his

559
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 3: exact terminology that he so, you know he hasn't he

560
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: has a more nuanced view of this.

561
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: Sure, but I think he got to listen with you,

562
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: all right, listen, what do you think what you want

563
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: about Palestine? Okay? And if you have a problem with

564
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: it in Britain, that's your problem. You guys can figure

565
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: it out for yourselves. I think he's getting a little

566
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: close to the line there, ask me, but and this

567
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: is kind of where I get to and this, this

568
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: is where the the the nanny finger wagging from a

569
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: lot of people starts to bug me. He's like, guys,

570
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: how many times do I see these people cheering on

571
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: is really murder? I literally saw you know there there

572
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: are people here who I saw sweeting about this and

573
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: they have past statements being like I don't feel first

574
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: the Palestinians deserved to watch their children starve. I'm just like, okay,

575
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna take a more or lesson from you

576
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: about what's acceptable rhetoric and not sorry, you know, I'm out.

577
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: I'm out on right, Randy, fine, right, yeah, all the time.

578
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 3: Will Chamberlain not to be confused with the basketball player

579
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: who you know will say, you know, it's on the

580
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 3: showt yeah, deport him to port to port to port

581
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 3: you know, five times to day he's trying to get

582
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 3: you know, he's circled around on this one.

583
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: Uh.

584
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 3: He's a randy fine Republican like he's he will he

585
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: will say things that are you know, far more atrocious

586
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 3: than anything that Sammy has said. And three and that's okay,

587
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: that's the whole. That's the strength of the country. There's

588
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 3: a there's a patheticness and a weakness to a country

589
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: that can't allow somebody to speak at a small gala

590
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: because they said something that you didn't like about. For me,

591
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: it's the selection.

592
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: For me, it's a select specifically on October seventh. But

593
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, nothing new happening here in the United States

594
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: of America so far. All right, let's get to snap,

595
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: shall we.

596
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: As the government shutdown continues into likely November, food stamps

597
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 3: are now on the shopping block. People's food stamps start

598
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 3: getting re upped on Friday or Monday. But because of

599
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: the Trump administration decision, we can put up B one

600
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: or this isn't this is an arguable point, according to Democrats,

601
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 3: because of a Trump administration decision not to use funds

602
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: that are available to in an emergency for SNAP benefits,

603
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: they they will be lapsing for the next month. You

604
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 3: put up E one here, Uh, this is New York

605
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: hunger and cold Looms has shut down imperils funding for

606
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: anti poverty programs. And you know, so you have this

607
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 3: now bipartisan push to and you know, bi partisan push

608
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: to save SNAP benefits because you know, over forty million

609
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 3: people rely on these benefits and many of those people,

610
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: you know, we're now at the as many of our

611
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: viewers will know, who's straight by to get to the

612
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 3: end of the month. We're at the end of the

613
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 3: month now, and so people are kind of holding their breath,

614
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: hanging on waiting for the waiting for things to come

615
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: in on the first of the month. And when that

616
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: doesn't happen that and you can't catch a breath, you

617
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 3: then your only choice then becomes like hitting these food

618
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: banks which are now you know, massively overstretched as a

619
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: result of well, especially.

620
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: Where we are where we are in the DMV, because

621
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: people have been out of paycheck now for twenty eight days.

622
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: It's it's grim out here from what I have been told,

623
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: food banks and this, by the way, people the federal

624
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: workers are at least going to get their money back.

625
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: There's all kinds of downstream effects here in our economy.

626
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 3: I mean this is it's always dicey for contractors.

627
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: Like if you the contractors don't get paid, but then

628
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: think about all that. I talked to my barber, right,

629
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, how's business. He's like, it's horrible.

630
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: Nobody's going to work so they don't need a haircut.

631
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: He's like, I don't get back paid, right, So he's

632
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: not good.

633
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: I mean there's and they're multiply that by like twenty

634
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: across all kinds of different I don't know, the lunch places,

635
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: small businesses, the guys of the Pentagon who sell hot dogs.

636
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: Like everybody is taking a bath and not I know

637
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: most people are watching this don't care.

638
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 3: But it's just locals and it's not just you can

639
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: understand workers are all over.

640
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: There's two million people. The two million people are getting paid.

641
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: That's huge. I mean banks, uh, you know, mortgage payments, Like,

642
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of cascading effects throughout the system. Let's

643
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: go and put the next one up on the screen,

644
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: because this does highlight some of my partisanship around this.

645
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: Josh Holly wrote this op ed, No American should go

646
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: to bed Hungary. Here he proposes, the federal government has

647
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: been shut down for twenty eight days. Twenty eight days

648
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: too long. Congress must not let that happen. And he

649
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: is now co sponsoring or has now introduced a bill

650
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: Ryan which would kind of one shot funding immediately for

651
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: the SNAP program, which actually itself has a ton of

652
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: Republican co sponsors. Let's put that one up next, please,

653
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: so you can see here wide variety James Langford, Lisa Murkowski,

654
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: Susan Collins, Marshall Blackburn, Bernie Moreno, Kevin Kramer, Bill Cassidy,

655
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: Katie Boyd, John Cornyn, John Hunstead, and Peter Well. So

656
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: you have one Democrat there, but I believe many other

657
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: Democrats would support at least some sort of SNAP immediate funding.

658
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't though, appear as if that's going to make

659
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: its way through Congress. And there seems to be some

660
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 1: brinksmanship right now between the congressional leaders where Mike Johnson

661
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: and others they want SNAP not to go out because

662
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: they want pressure to go on the Democrats to fold

663
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: vice versa. By the way, from the Democrats, they don't

664
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: want it to come because they want the Republicans to

665
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: fold to them. I don't know. I mean, we're coming

666
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: up on that November four first potential deadline. What do

667
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: you think is going to happen.

668
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, So on the Senate Democratic side, you're seeing, you

669
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: you saw an interesting kind of political tactical shift where

670
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 3: just last week John Senator John Thune, the Republican, was saying, well,

671
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: let's selectively just open a few pieces of the government,

672
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 3: wouldn't that be fair, so that and then we can

673
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 3: continue hashing this out. And Schumer at the time said, no,

674
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 3: all or nothing, you know, just you know, extend the

675
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 3: subsidies for Obamacare to a c R at the end

676
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: of the year and then and then we're done. Schumer

677
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: has now flipped, and Schumer is now pushing for these

678
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: individual votes around things like this to say because they

679
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 3: think that they for whatever he is in Schumer now

680
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 3: thinks that that's to their tactical advantage to then and

681
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 3: then I think he also probably assumes that Republicans are

682
00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 3: now going to be on the blocking side of it.

683
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: Because Mike Johnson has been has you know, if you remember,

684
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: he adjourned the House so as not.

685
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: To have to and no votes, no Epstein vote.

686
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 3: Not to have an Epstein vote, and so as not

687
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: to swear in autoly to Griholva role Grohalva's daughter who

688
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 3: won her seat in a special election. Think about this,

689
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 3: The seven hundred thousand people in this country elected a

690
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 3: member of Congress and a special election, and Mike Johnson

691
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 3: is just refusing to swear her in. Like that's constitutional

692
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 3: crisis level stuff. He's like, well, it's don't worry about it.

693
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 3: We'll get to it eventually. You're starting to get pressure

694
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 3: from people like MTG and others who are like, why

695
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: are we out of what are we doing? Like why

696
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 3: are we still out of session? Like we're elected to

697
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 3: be in Congress, like Gavelos back in. So if Grihalva,

698
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 3: when Griholva is finally sworn in, that will be the

699
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 3: two hundred and eighteenth vote. They need to force an

700
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 3: Epstein vote. And so I think Schumer also, he's like, Okay,

701
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: well they're not even in session, so there's no risk

702
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: of them actually doing this. And if they go forward

703
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 3: with snap benefits, that's good for Democrats because then we

704
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: can last longer because there's less pressure on us. So

705
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 3: Schumer has now shifted on that. But there's also a

706
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 3: illegal strategy underway. If we can put up E four,

707
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: twenty five states are suing the Trump administration because it's

708
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: actually not obvious that the program's out of money, Like

709
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: the way it's been reported in the press is like, oh,

710
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 3: because of the government shutdown, snap benefits aren't going to

711
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 3: be paid. Well, yes, and no, there's a contingency fund

712
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 3: that has been set up by Congress precisely for these

713
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 3: shutdown scenarios so that payments keep going out. RUSS Vote,

714
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: unsurprising to anybody who knows RUSS Vote, is interpreting it

715
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 3: such that he doesn't have to give the money out.

716
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 3: We can put up E five. So this is from

717
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Warren posted this. This has since been deleted from

718
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 3: the website, but you know, as as as Trump's own

719
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: government website, said Omb's General Counsel Pride a letter to

720
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: USD on USDA May twenty third, twenty twenty five, stating

721
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: that there is a bona fide need to obligate benefits

722
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 3: for October, the first month of the fiscal year during

723
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: or prior to the month of September. They're by guaranteeing

724
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: that benefit funds are available for program operations even in

725
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 3: the event of a government shutdown. So that is a

726
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 3: very important fact of this conversation. To understand it is

727
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: it is not, according to that reading, the shutdown that

728
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: is preventing food stamps from getting dolled out. It is

729
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 3: a explicit decision by russ Vote and by the Trump

730
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 3: administration to withhold it in order to put extra pressure

731
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: on Democrats. And also I think Russfode just likes to

732
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: withhold money, right, Yeah, that's a fair Well, I don't

733
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 3: know if he would as I.

734
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: Think their pressure, I mean, if he statistically would look

735
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: at it and who are going to be the most

736
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: on food stamps? I mean, I actually don't know, considering

737
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 1: the way that things have aligned more recently, but initially

738
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: that would be more of a democratic constituency.

739
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: But we're definitely still the case.

740
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I don't think it's really what people.

741
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: Need to understand is it's overwhelmingly people with children, like

742
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: ninety well over ninety percent these are well.

743
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't you go into that, Ryan I'm seeing

744
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: a lot of right wing people. I can't believe forty

745
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: two million people are on food stamps. These people are

746
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 1: all bums and on welfare.

747
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 3: What is that? These are kids I grew up on

748
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: food stamps, raised you, raised by a single mom. So

749
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: we would get we would get you know, ebt uh.

750
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: And you know there's still only certain things you can

751
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: buy at the grocery store with it. Actually, from my

752
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 3: eighteenth birthday, I got to use the card.

753
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: Here, I have the key. They have the eligibility criteria.

754
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: Household grossly month income must sell. You're better belyve one

755
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 1: third thirty percent of the federal poverty level house net inch.

756
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: Which for a family of four. That's good, Go ahead,

757
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: god right?

758
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. So then resources and asset limits. Households without a

759
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: member of sixty plus must generally have assets at or

760
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: below a set limit. Households with a member of sixty

761
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: plus with disabilities may have higher resource limits. To be eligible,

762
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: households must be US citizens, lawfully permanent non citizens. Many

763
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: able bodied adults without dependence must meet work or training requirements.

764
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: There are exemptions for people who are pregnant and elderly disabled.

765
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 1: A household for snap means a group of people who

766
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: live together, purchase and prepare food together. Some states have

767
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: specific rules for suit, so generally it's like looks like

768
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty percent of the federal poverty level, which.

769
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 3: For us family of four is about forty thousand dollars. Okay,

770
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: so a lot of money. It's not a lot of

771
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 3: money at all. And the asset so, yeah, forty two thousand,

772
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 3: you have to forty two thousand is the most you

773
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 3: can make for a family of four in order to

774
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: get these get these very modest benefits. We're not talking

775
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 3: like the huge amounts of money here that you can

776
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 3: spend at the grocery store. And the asset limits that

777
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: they're talking about are also incredibly draconian. So like, if

778
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 3: let's say you inherit like seven thousand dollars from like

779
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 3: your great great ant dies or something, boom you out

780
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 3: of the program just because you briefly went over it's

781
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: it's it's kind of anti American in the way that

782
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 3: it or an un American in the way that it

783
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 3: like holds people back, like you're if you if you

784
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 3: try to pull yourself up by your bootstrapped, which people

785
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 3: are always being told to do, and you have a

786
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 3: successful couple of months, all of a sudden, because you

787
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 3: now have three thousand or whatever dollars in the bank,

788
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: you lose everything. Use lose whatever you know, medical benefits

789
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 3: you were getting, you lose your food stamps.

790
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 1: You can you should phase out at some point.

791
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 3: You might phase out at some point, but we don't.

792
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 3: We don't have a system that really phases out at

793
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: some point. We have this system of cliffs that and all. No,

794
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 3: you're going to lose your energy insistence because you had

795
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: this one good month or something. So you have a

796
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: much greater risk of losing everything if you have a

797
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 3: little bit of success. So a lot of people are like, well,

798
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: I better just do nothing and just stay here underneath

799
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: this thing. So I don't kind of damned if you do.

800
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: If you damn if you don't, I don't disagree with you.

801
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: Which is crazy. Phase out, Yeah, it should be a

802
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: phase out. Yeah, clearly should be a phase out so

803
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: that you are incentivized. You earn one thousand dollars over

804
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: this limit you give, make it a text, you give

805
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 3: fifteen or whatever, like something that's still incentivizes you to

806
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: go out.

807
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: Rather sound like a Republican right now about how it

808
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: incentivizes people to stay in the pot. Fine, it's like

809
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: judge it, but no, That's why I thought it was

810
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: because I unfortunately I always see this happen. It's like

811
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: you get Reagan era talking points around welfare, and I

812
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: think what people actually don't understand is how insanely poor

813
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: you have to be to receive this.

814
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 3: You know, it's like forty two thousand do we talk.

815
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: About here on the show? And by the way, the

816
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: fact there are forty two million people are who are

817
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: making less than forty thousand dollars a.

818
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: Year in Cana and most of them with kids, like

819
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 3: to get it without kids, it's really hard. Yeah, And

820
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 3: you get like twelve dollars a month if you're if

821
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 3: you're like a single adult thirty five years old, you.

822
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: And I know the cost union, cost of diapers and

823
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: any of this. Good luck. Actually, yeah, that that is

824
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 1: one where it is fascinating. I think that on the SNAP,

825
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: I mean around the discourse around SNAP. Originally, if you'll recall,

826
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: there was some MAHA elements to try and to reform

827
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: SNAP to get away from sweetened drinks and sugar and

828
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: processed food. However, I recently also saw a study that

829
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: many people who eat at home end up eating higher

830
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 1: calorie food, and it's because they buy processed food from

831
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: the grocery store in some cases and will binge eat

832
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: based upon that. So our whole food system everything is

833
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: so so screwed up. The only way to even get

834
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: around it would be literally some authoritarian We just were

835
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: about to do a segment about China, some authoritarian level.

836
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: It's actually RFK Junior at one point proposed that organic,

837
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: healthy food be delivered to every American on snap. Actually,

838
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: I actually think that's a good idea as long as

839
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: you replace you know, all of these subsidies to sugary soda,

840
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: to goldfish lunchibles. What kids aren't eating lunchibles now, they

841
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: eat logan poles like I don't know what it's called,

842
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: but that's my prime energy drinks there, you know, all

843
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: this other crap that they're eating at the grocery store. Unfortunately, though,

844
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: that seems to be a dead end now it's.

845
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: Just whether they get food or not. It's very sad.

846
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 3: Yeah no, and so yeah, this is like this is

847
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 3: this is hitting for people like right now?

848
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So one more, what is it's October twenty nine.

849
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: Their theory, By the way, I heard a theory yesterday

850
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 1: I'll share with all of you. This is a little

851
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: DC scooplet. There's a current theory from both the parties

852
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: apparently that they want to make it so that Thanksgiving

853
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 1: travel is as miserable as possible, so that eventually people

854
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: will care about the shutdown. So they're going to try

855
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: and actually make the air traffic control situation go wild

856
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: with TSA and everything.

857
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: What we need is people getting killed Disney.

858
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, the busiest day of the entire travel year, and

859
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: well it's not that people would die, so there would

860
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: be cascading delays throughout the system, make everybody miserable, and

861
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: then millions of people would rise up and theoretically would

862
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: blame what.

863
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 3: I remember, that's what ended the last shutdown when in

864
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. Yeah, the air traffic Control the head of

865
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 3: the air traffic Controller, not air trap. The Flight Attendant Union,

866
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: Sarah what's her name Nelson fly was yeah, yeah, yeah,

867
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: she came out and was like, you get a deal

868
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: by Friday or we're going on strike, and they got

869
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 3: do it again and they got a deal. Sarah Nelson

870
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: has Sarah Sarah, Sarah, where have you been? Sarah Nelson

871
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 3: has been. I should not have forgotten Sarah Nelson's name,

872
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 3: because she was there a bunch of times. Guys talked

873
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 3: about it as like a vice president president. No, I

874
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 3: remember a couple of years ago.

875
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: We've interviewed a million times here on the show. I

876
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: remember her.

877
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Sarah, come on, fly in and solve this thing

878
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 3: for us.

879
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: Please put pressure on the system.

880
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 3: Last last thing. People like snap benefits put up east

881
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: six most recent poll, Americans oppose cutting food stamp benefits

882
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 3: by sixty six to twenty three. It's a it's an

883
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 3: overwhelmingly popular things. It's like, these are people with kids

884
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 3: who are poor, they deserve to eat. That turns out

885
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 3: to be something that the American people generally agree with.

886
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: What's the least popular welfare?

887
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 3: Let's see what do we got here?

888
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: A pose sending forty five billion to build and maintain

889
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: minorant detention camps.

890
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 3: Is that the least popular. That's one of them.

891
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: Reducing federal funding for food assistants to low income house

892
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: so that's reducing federal funding. Extending tax cuts for single

893
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: incomes above four hundred k. That is definitely formal welfare.

894
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: That's true.

895
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: Here's the world, here's the welfare that the post extending

896
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: tax cuts for business right corporations?

897
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, extending tax cuts through single incomes above four hundred k.

898
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: Who supports extending tax cuts?

899
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 3: Review the people make?

900
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: Person making four hundred thousand dollars a year, that's gotta

901
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 1: be what the top that's easily a top one percent income.

902
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: I'm talking about W two annual income.

903
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 3: That's a lot of mine. It probably is.

904
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, statistically, twenty nine percent are not even making No,

905
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: they're not four k.

906
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 3: That's like solid the risk.

907
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like a forty two k a year W two.

908
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 3: That's aspiration. Could be me, those people plan to be.

909
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: I mean it could be. You probably won't be. But anyway,

910
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: all right, let's get to China.

911
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 3: Ben Smith standybye.

912
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: Very excited now to be joined by Ben Smith. He's

913
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: the editor in chief of Semaphore and the host of

914
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: the Mixed Signals podcast, which everybody should go and subscribe to.

915
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: Good to see you, Ben, Thanks for joining us. Yeah,

916
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: thanks for having me, guys. Ben, you wrote a fantastic

917
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: story here, a very under noted in my opinion of

918
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 1: the US, China dynamic, which I think really hit the

919
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: nail on the head. I've been involved in the space

920
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: now for quite some time. Let's put this up here

921
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: on the screen. Here's what you write. You talked specifically

922
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: about how Trump is poised to end Washington's decade of

923
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 1: the China Hawks. First of all, why don't you just

924
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: tell us some of the things that you noted with

925
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: the trade deal that's now taking form President Trump and

926
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 1: President She scheduled to meet sometime in the next forty

927
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: eight hours or so, I believe in South Korea. But

928
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: why is Trump, who ushered in the decade of the

929
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: China Hawks, also one poise to end it?

930
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 3: What did you find? Yeah?

931
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 8: I mean, you know, Trump ran in twenty sixteen. You know,

932
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 8: a huge part, a huge part of that campaign, a

933
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 8: huge part of his whole public career, has been saying

934
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 8: that when you know, China joined the WTO in the

935
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 8: early two thousands, that was, you know, the beginning of

936
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 8: the end for American manufacturing and thus the beginning of

937
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 8: the end for kind of America as we knew it

938
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 8: and loved it.

939
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: That was the original sin.

940
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 8: And we have to totally remake the US relationship with

941
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 8: China which really means remaking the whole world for which

942
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 8: China has been you know, his basically most so much

943
00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 8: of global manufacturing has shifted to China. And and I think,

944
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 8: you know, and there was there there and that came

945
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 8: with a certain amount at times of and we have

946
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 8: to prepare to fight a war with them over Taiwan.

947
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 8: And you know, and and they're spying on us. We

948
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 8: have to throw out all their students and a lot

949
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 8: there's a lot of very tough talk from him and

950
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 8: and and and there's a group of very hardcore anti

951
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 8: China people who, by the way, have been around forever.

952
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: This is an old American debate.

953
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 8: There's an old who lost China debate, you know, very

954
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 8: intense support for Taiwan here for you know, since Henry

955
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 8: Luce was running Time magazine.

956
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: But they but but that.

957
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 8: But basically, I think what we've seen over the last

958
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 8: two weeks is that that thing of that is basically

959
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 8: hit a dead end. The people, the most hawkish advisors

960
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 8: to Trump are out this term a guy, a guy

961
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 8: named Matt Pottinger, a former Wall Street Journal reporter, and

962
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,280
Speaker 8: Trump is looking to make a deal that is basically

963
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 8: going to restore the status quo ante like he's going

964
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 8: to drop the fentanyl tariffs, and I mean this stuff

965
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 8: that the stuff that ultimately felt kind of made up

966
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 8: is now going away in exchange for making tariffs go away.

967
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 8: And the notion that we're going to remake the world

968
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 8: economy into one where like all the dirt processing plants

969
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 8: relocate to the US and you know, China goes back

970
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 8: to I don't know, nineteen seventy three just does not

971
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 8: seem like it's going to happen exactly.

972
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 3: And was there a way you think that the Hawks

973
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 3: could have played their cards better, and that if Trump

974
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 3: had approached the tariff conflict differently. It seems like it

975
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 3: it was destined to fail by the way that he

976
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 3: rolled it out, attacking the entire world at the same time.

977
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: Everybody gets these like arbitrary tariffs, and we're going to

978
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 3: put tariffs on things that we can't make here in

979
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: the United States. And China's response at the times seemed

980
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 3: to be, Okay, well, we're not going to buy some

981
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: soybeans and we're just going to wait you out because

982
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 3: this is incoherent. It's not going to work. But it

983
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 3: feels like we do have a lot of power, like

984
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 3: something could have worked, Like where did they go wrong here?

985
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 8: Yeah? I mean, ironically the thing that if you really

986
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 8: wanted to do best to damage the Chinese economy and

987
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 8: kind of contain their technological development, you'd probably do what

988
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 8: the Biden administration did, which was basically blockade certain key

989
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 8: technologies and get the Europeans to do it too, and

990
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 8: were also, by the way, not by their superior electronic

991
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 8: electric vehicles, and force Americans to you know, purchase inferior

992
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 8: for electronic vehicle electric vehicles, which the Europeans had been doing.

993
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 8: Looks like now the Canadians are just going to go

994
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 8: and buy Chinese vehicles. I mean, the Europeans surprisingly are

995
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 8: really kind of much more inclined to take an anti

996
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 8: China stance, I think than a lot of people here

997
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 8: expect because for them, the biggest issue is the war

998
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 8: in Ukraine and China's on the wrong side of it.

999
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: Yep, that's very important to note.

1000
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 3: I mean.

1001
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: One of the things been that I you know, like

1002
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: I said, I've been in this space for a long time,

1003
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: kind of followed the discourse. What I noticed was that

1004
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: eight to ten years ago, in the China Hawk space,

1005
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: it seemed achievable, the idea of decoupling, the idea of industrialization.

1006
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: And I mean, you and I have been all around

1007
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: for a while. How many times we heard ofbout industrial policy.

1008
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: It's a bipartisan thing. It's twenty twenty five. Now, you know,

1009
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: the maiden China twenty twenty five plan actually did come true.

1010
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: I was just looking at their original goals from twenty

1011
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty twenty five, they mostly accomplished all of them.

1012
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: If you compare the rhetoric of the industrial policy, how

1013
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: we're going to decouple from China, the progress of the

1014
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: Chips Act here in the US, almost none of that

1015
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: has actually materialized, and it's not really on his way

1016
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: to doing so. If anything, a lot of it is

1017
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: being cut by the one big beautiful bill. So material terms,

1018
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: it seems to me that the playing field itself is

1019
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: just different now because we didn't do any of the

1020
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 1: requisite things that would have been able to be done

1021
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: to actually have some grand coupling in the way that

1022
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 1: Steve Bannon envision in twenty sixty. Yeah.

1023
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 8: I mean, I think the thing is, if you had

1024
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 8: if you'd hung around Congress five or ten years ago

1025
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 8: and you saw Mike Gallagher, this Wisconsin Congressman Shaaring, the

1026
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 8: China Committee kind of and building this bipartisan consensus that

1027
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 8: it was just time for a radical break with China,

1028
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 8: a radical reach of that relationship, and with support of

1029
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 8: a lot of Democrats, including very senior people in the

1030
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 8: Biden White House, you would have would been plausible to

1031
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 8: think that that was going to happen, and it has

1032
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 8: absolutely not happened. I mean, I do think one of

1033
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 8: the things that this administration has come up to face

1034
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 8: is basically, do we want to try to beat the

1035
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 8: Chinese at their own game, which is sort of scaled

1036
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 8: domestic manufacturing of very very low margin goods. And you know,

1037
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 8: when you talked to about rare earths, what that is

1038
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 8: is massive, massive plants processing dirt. And I think, you know,

1039
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 8: we've sort of walked up to that, and it doesn't

1040
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 8: seem like there's a huge appetite to do that here

1041
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 8: as opposed to very very high margin service ex sports

1042
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 8: in AI, in all sorts of digital services where the

1043
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 8: US is really totally dominating the world. And I think

1044
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 8: it's been sort of the notion that like the right

1045
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 8: strategy for the US is to try to beat China

1046
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 8: at its game rather than at our game. You know,

1047
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 8: does ultimately I think give people pause and let me.

1048
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 3: Put an idea to you, and you tell me if

1049
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 3: you think it's totally crazy. You know, in the nineteen nineties,

1050
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 3: when there was this push for permanent normal trade relations

1051
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 3: with China and then also and then eventually like letting

1052
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 3: them into the wto, the idea that was presented to

1053
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 3: the American public, into the global public was that opening

1054
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 3: up the Chinese economy would also step two, step three,

1055
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 3: open up democracy and open open China up politically, that

1056
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 3: they would see the virtues of this Western liberal system

1057
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 3: and they and they would adopt it. What seems to

1058
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 3: have happened is that the contagion went the other way.

1059
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: So we're we seem to be adopting their system. Like

1060
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 3: the two systems saw each other, and the leaders of

1061
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 3: this country, particularly Trump at this point, looked in the

1062
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 3: Chinese mirror. We're like, oh wow, this is interesting. I

1063
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 3: like the way that they dictate, you know, corporate policy

1064
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:01,760
Speaker 3: by telling which companies that can merge with other companies,

1065
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 3: Like they're now out publicly saying that you know who

1066
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 3: they want, you know who they want. Warner brothers to

1067
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 3: merge with. When it comes to TikTok, they're like, oh,

1068
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 3: this is pretty cool, and so we're just going to

1069
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 3: have a state run TikTok and my friend Larry Ellisenter

1070
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 3: will be the one that will run it, and he'll

1071
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 3: design an algorithm that will that will work well China

1072
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 3: can do you know their version of TikTok over there,

1073
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 3: and we're going to buy ten percent of this company.

1074
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 3: We're going to buy ten percent of this company. So

1075
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 3: it really feels like the analysts were correct that the

1076
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,399
Speaker 3: merging of the two systems would persuade one of them

1077
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 3: to adopt the others, but they had the direction wrong.

1078
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 3: Am I crazy here or the witness.

1079
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 8: You're referring to what do they call it? State capitalism

1080
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 8: with American characteristic? Yeah, I mean I think I think

1081
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 8: you know that that is superficially true. I mean the

1082
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 8: difference is that the Chinese go because it's a you know,

1083
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 8: communist dictatorship, is able to make extremely long term bets

1084
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 8: and stick to them, and so the kind of and

1085
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 8: sometimes with massive success, like the kind of infrastructure behind

1086
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 8: this kind of massively scaled industrial policy, whereas the US

1087
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 8: on things like cars is changing its strategy so frequently

1088
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 8: that it's really destroying the domestic auto industry. Like it's

1089
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 8: just very very you like, maybe there's some future where

1090
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 8: people are driving internal using internal combustant engines, and if

1091
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 8: the US had kind of made that counterintuitive bed and

1092
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 8: stuck with it, we'd be the one selling those cars,

1093
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 8: or at least we'd but instead we've the country has

1094
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 8: sort of flip flopped a few times, and just it's

1095
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 8: very hard if you're running forward your general motors, it's

1096
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 8: just very very hard to be competitive. And then the

1097
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 8: problem of course with being a you know, communist dictatorship

1098
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 8: is you can't correct and you know, the one things

1099
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 8: like the one child policy, which has created this you're

1100
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 8: horrific and was both incredibly and humane and created this

1101
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 8: horrible demographic crisis, are also a product of the same thing.

1102
00:56:58,080 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure like we should act.

1103
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 8: There is moment right now, and I feel like people

1104
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 8: are watching like videos on TikTok of Chinese like iPhone

1105
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 8: stores that have cars in them and getting really excited.

1106
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:09,959
Speaker 8: But it's not like the things are not going great

1107
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 8: there necessarily, I don't know.

1108
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: I mean, things are a great here either, So This

1109
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: causes people like me like it seems clean, it's safe,

1110
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: and it's nice, you know.

1111
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 8: Over the summer and with my kids, and they were

1112
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 8: just like, oh my god, we're so cooked.

1113
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure it's that simple. Yeah, of course

1114
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: it never is entirely.

1115
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 3: At least we have our freedoms here, right, all right.

1116
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: Ryan, Well that sounds like a nervous laugh.

1117
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben.

1118
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: My last question here is on the security doctrine, because

1119
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: key to the industrial side of all of this was

1120
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: always the Taiwan question. Strategic ambiguity, according to White House official,

1121
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: is officially here to stay. Trump technically said he was

1122
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: going to talk to President she maybe about Taiwan sometime today.

1123
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: But even the discussion around Taiwan today seems very different

1124
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: than it was ten years ago, when there was an

1125
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 1: ironclad I mean, frankly, even Biden said I would defend Taiwan.

1126
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: He almost changed the strategic ambiguity policy. Doesn't seem like

1127
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: that is nearly as clear as it is today in

1128
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five.

1129
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, Trump is sort of in everything's on

1130
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 8: the table, deal maker, and so there's this slight sense that, wait,

1131
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 8: does that include Taiwan and the US just demonstrably in

1132
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 8: our domestic politics don't have a big appetite to fight

1133
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,439
Speaker 8: foreign wars. I mean, you know, I don't think there's

1134
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 8: something has radically changed, but the strategic ambiguity has, you know,

1135
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 8: has shifted a little in the direction of the US

1136
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 8: wouldn't engage. And but you know, although Trump I think

1137
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 8: is unpredictable enough that in some way he maintained like

1138
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 8: there's just a level of ambiguity right there that I

1139
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 8: don't know that a lot of people think will deter

1140
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,919
Speaker 8: the Chinese from sort of opportunistically starting a war.

1141
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Allowing the creation of this

1142
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,919
Speaker 3: semiconductor industry in this island right off the Chinese coast

1143
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 3: seems to be not working out as well as planned

1144
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 3: a little bit. It is you know, does does that

1145
00:58:55,160 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 3: essentially require the US to maintain some stable relationship? I

1146
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 3: mean if because if it does go the way that

1147
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 3: we're thinking, there's some kind of mostly peaceful takeover of Taiwan,

1148
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 3: the American economy is then that much more in hak No.

1149
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 8: And of yeah, I mean, I mean, the US economy

1150
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 8: is so profoundly defended on many, many different things happening

1151
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 8: in China and they're.

1152
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: They're kind of just expression.

1153
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 8: The other week, it was really pretty breathtaking to say,

1154
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 8: any any item made with these minerals that we mind,

1155
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 8: we get to control the use with the kind of

1156
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 8: global long arm forever and don't worry a whole issue

1157
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 8: permits swiftly like that's you know, they have a lot

1158
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 8: of power of the global economy.

1159
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: That's part of I think why the US climbed down.

1160
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 8: The chips are part of it, you know, are our

1161
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 8: sort of announcement that we're going to reclaim the chip industry,

1162
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 8: and our attempts to cut them off from chip manufacturing

1163
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 8: do not actually really seem to yet have created a

1164
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 8: booming American chip industry, but have created very strong incentives

1165
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 8: for China to build its own competitive, domestic chip industry.

1166
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 8: And now the administration decided, like, wait a second, we

1167
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 8: are the real way to prevent them from doing that

1168
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 8: is to sell them the n video chips that we

1169
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 8: were blockading. And it is another instance where I think

1170
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 8: these are all rational decisions, like these are smart people

1171
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 8: making very difficult policy choices, but flipping between the US

1172
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 8: strategy has really been defined by flipping between them.

1173
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 3: I think that's really well said.

1174
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: Everybody, go and subscribe to Ben's podcast. Ben, thank you

1175
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Appreciate it. Thank you guys.

1176
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: Nice to see you. Thank you guys so much for watching.

1177
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Ryan, Chrystal

1178
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: and I will be on tomorrow. We will see you

1179
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: all the