Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hey, everybody,
Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
Speaker 1: name is not you, argue, and I am Ben, which
Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. And
Speaker 1: before we get into it, you guys, we've had we've
Speaker 1: had a lot of people asking for shoutouts shot at corners.
Speaker 1: That's right. We are returning yet again for an episode
Speaker 1: of shout Out Corner where we just have listeners introduced themselves,
Speaker 1: say something nice. You know, we had we had a
Speaker 1: really cool thing. Jeremy wrote in about his anniversary that
Speaker 1: was pretty cool. And uh, we're gonna we're gonna keep
Speaker 1: it brief, but if you wrote to us, keep writing
Speaker 1: in who are we shouting out today? The first one
Speaker 1: is Jimmy James Kramer. He wrote to us with a
Speaker 1: really cool story. Well, it's a disturbing story about these
Speaker 1: specific endoscopes that maybe leading to U superbug infections because
Speaker 1: they're very difficult to clean. Apparently, endoscopes specifically things that
Speaker 1: let's say, enter orifices in order to check out what's
Speaker 1: going on inside of them in the human body. And
Speaker 1: the problem with these in particulars because once he goes
Speaker 1: in there and it gets the equal ied other bacteria
Speaker 1: that might be living inside of one human, then you
Speaker 1: take it out, remove it, try to sterilize it as
Speaker 1: much as possible. But perhaps there are a couple places
Speaker 1: within the scope, a little small nooks and crannies that
Speaker 1: can't be cleaned well enough to be completely sterile, just
Speaker 1: a little scary. And I think there were a couple
Speaker 1: of recalls at least according to drug watch dot com.
Speaker 1: And I cannot uh. I don't know how reputable this
Speaker 1: site is, unfortunately, but the thing that he did send
Speaker 1: us is pretty creepy. So thanks Jimmy. So is a
Speaker 1: nook and cranny? Is that metric system or something? And
Speaker 1: I think who's next? Well, next, we have a delicious
Speaker 1: shout out to Goustaf von Essen from Sweden with love.
Speaker 1: He suggested doing an episode on the IB affair. IB
Speaker 1: was a secret Swedish intelligence agency that is a mouthful
Speaker 1: that worked with the CIA and the Israel security agency.
Speaker 1: So Gustaf on Essen, consider yourself out shouted or shouted out,
Speaker 1: and our last one for today goes to uh Lynn, Now,
Speaker 1: H may be mispronouncing your name. Lynn. M I a
Speaker 1: o uh there on Twitter? Who said and I quote
Speaker 1: uh conspiracy stuff. Could I please have a shout out
Speaker 1: for good luck? It could really help on college mid terms? So, uh, Lynn,
Speaker 1: we wish you the best of luck on your mid terms.
Speaker 1: I hope your studies well, absolutely, I think we've been there.
Speaker 1: I haven't off the books shout out real quick? Were
Speaker 1: you about to say something? I'm sorry, Oh no, just
Speaker 1: continuing to talk to Lynn. But you know it's cool nol. No, No,
Speaker 1: I didn't know if you had something substantial to say.
Speaker 1: That's not true. Guys, you talk about my mat like that.
Speaker 1: Guys were live. Okay, what is it? Okay? No? I
Speaker 1: just my dear friend Lee Albert Lee Landers of Augusta,
Speaker 1: Georgia town. UM just sent me a text that said,
Speaker 1: quote shout out corners skadooche and he was referencing my
Speaker 1: off the cuff shout out corner theme that we have
Speaker 1: now you know it's cannon now and yeah and so um.
Speaker 1: You know, he asked if I would give him a
Speaker 1: shout out because this is the first episode he'd ever
Speaker 1: listened to and so Lee shout out to you. Hey, Lee,
Speaker 1: you're in You're in trouble because we just violated one
Speaker 1: of the rules of shout Out Corner, which is it's
Speaker 1: around three because it's not a shout out room. So well,
Speaker 1: actually though, if it was only a corner, it should
Speaker 1: just be one. Well no, because then it would room
Speaker 1: has four corners, but a corner like one one on
Speaker 1: that side. And then I love that we're talking and
Speaker 1: spatial reason because this is perfect. Okay, So before we
Speaker 1: before we get lost in that, I I do, uh,
Speaker 1: I do, I do have to admit that I love
Speaker 1: the theme. And if you enjoy shout Out Corner, then
Speaker 1: right to us. We have a little bit of a
Speaker 1: list and who knows, maybe you can also meet the
Speaker 1: rest of the listeners. Gosh, less time on stuff they
Speaker 1: don't want you to know. No, you were on a
Speaker 1: bit of an adventure and we couldn't really talk about it.
Speaker 1: It was a bit of a secret a secret mission.
Speaker 1: It was a bit of a secret mission. But the
Speaker 1: cat is now out of the bag, or should I
Speaker 1: say the clippy. The clipp is out of the bag,
Speaker 1: badger is out of the No listeners, I'm referring to
Speaker 1: the beloved uh Microsoft widget pre widget precursor to the
Speaker 1: widget up right. And there's a name for it now
Speaker 1: that I can't remember of that type of of digital assistant.
Speaker 1: What I'm getting at is, Guys, over the weekend, I
Speaker 1: took a last minute trip to New York with Josh
Speaker 1: and Chuck from our brother podcast Sister podcast. We would
Speaker 1: have to be gendered about this peer podcast, Keep pure podcast.
Speaker 1: That's good stuff you should know to interview one Mr
Speaker 1: Bill Gates, creator of The Clippy and also couple of Microsoft. Yah,
Speaker 1: something about being one of the most wealthy men alive
Speaker 1: in the free world. Um, but yeah, we talked to
Speaker 1: him a out renewable energy. He launched a really big
Speaker 1: renewable energy initiative and all that was embargo. We went
Speaker 1: to a fancy hotel and talked to him, um, and
Speaker 1: then all that stuff hit the news. What I think
Speaker 1: is sort of a little bit of a bummer I
Speaker 1: think for his folks is the comment that he made
Speaker 1: about that Apple should crack that phone of the San
Speaker 1: Berndino shooter has overshadowed largely, uh, the the stuff that
Speaker 1: he was really trying to promote, which I think is
Speaker 1: a shame. Now you said he was a cool guy.
Speaker 1: Though he was super good. He was chilled in and
Speaker 1: he was really surprised that there was so few handlers
Speaker 1: and um security, I mean it was very low key.
Speaker 1: He probably keeps a close cerca Yeah, oh for sure.
Speaker 1: But just as about security protocol though there was none
Speaker 1: really yeah, we just I mean I got no pat down?
Speaker 1: Did you? Did you request one? Well? Well, I got
Speaker 1: there early because I'm a little O c D about
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff and I just want to make
Speaker 1: sure the WiFi was fasten so that I could upload
Speaker 1: the files real quick. It's really fast turnaround for the
Speaker 1: for the recording. It was for the episode that came
Speaker 1: out yesterday and the interview took place on Monday. Um,
Speaker 1: so I uploaded them and our dear friend Jerry, who
Speaker 1: is the producer and stuff you should know, received the
Speaker 1: files and edited the interview into the episode and we
Speaker 1: made the publish deadline, which was yesterday morning. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: quick turnaround, And ladies and gentleman, you can check out
Speaker 1: that episode on iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you like to
Speaker 1: listen to a podcast, and you can hear every Buddy's
Speaker 1: Chuck and Josh as they chop it up with Bill Gates.
Speaker 1: How weird is it that because you were in the
Speaker 1: same room with Bill Gates And I don't know exactly
Speaker 1: how the degrees of separation work necessarily because I think
Speaker 1: the originally you had to send a letter I guess
Speaker 1: to someone that you knew when you were gonna establish
Speaker 1: the six degrees. But that connects you up to some
Speaker 1: very powerful people, not that he isn't perhaps one of
Speaker 1: the most powerful. It was just like the Kevin Bacon game. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'm scared. One thing that Josh commented on his bill
Speaker 1: was drinking a diet coke um and he left it
Speaker 1: behind and we could have taken it and harvested his DNA.
Speaker 1: I don't know how much effective DNA would get, uh,
Speaker 1: not that I've tried, but from someone's uh not all
Speaker 1: the way consumed soda can. I mean there there's some
Speaker 1: pretty hard you know what, let's see if let's see
Speaker 1: if we keep that one. But let's also move on. Uh.
Speaker 1: This week, we are covering an update series on the
Speaker 1: flat Earth theory. Now, our video for this is going
Speaker 1: to come out probably around Sunday night, maybe Monday, and
Speaker 1: what we do in the video is walk through some
Speaker 1: of the recent ideas, some of the longstanding misconceptions, and
Speaker 1: the reason we wanted to do an update is uh
Speaker 1: pretty pretty important, right Matt. Yeah, we okay, so a
Speaker 1: long time ago. Take take yourselves back now a few years, yes, Ben,
Speaker 1: because we find ourselves here at how stuff works and
Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know intertwined into perhaps
Speaker 1: the story of the modern flat earth theory simply because
Speaker 1: we You and I specifically produced a video back in
Speaker 1: two thousand nine which then got on YouTube in two
Speaker 1: thousand ten about the theories behind the flat Earth in
Speaker 1: the Flat Earth Society, and it was then posted on
Speaker 1: various forums around the Internet. There's one in particular on
Speaker 1: the Flat Earth Society dot org, I believe, where a
Speaker 1: gentleman named Tom Bishop wrote that specifically, quote how stuff
Speaker 1: works dot com endorses flat earth theory unquote, And it
Speaker 1: kind of became a thing that perhaps our video is
Speaker 1: being used to promote the flat earth theory, which is
Speaker 1: an interesting idea because if you watch the video, uh,
Speaker 1: that is clearly not occurring within it. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's the same formula you guys apply to any video
Speaker 1: you make where you take an idea, you talk about
Speaker 1: its background, and you describe the people that espouses set idea,
Speaker 1: but that does not make you said espousers. And that's
Speaker 1: the great thing about that forum, because if you scroll
Speaker 1: a little bit further down and watch the video, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's at least there are at least three people who
Speaker 1: are commenting endorses a really strong word, or maybe you
Speaker 1: didn't watch the whole video, and uh, it's pretty funny.
Speaker 1: They're even using the hero of the facts and here's
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy lines in their commenting back and forth.
Speaker 1: So it was quite amusing. I think the more appropriate
Speaker 1: headline would be how stuff works makes video about flat Earth. Sure. Sure,
Speaker 1: but this is also a surprising thing. As you may
Speaker 1: have heard in recent months. Uh, the concept of a
Speaker 1: flat earth, which is a very ancient concept, gained national
Speaker 1: media attention and more people are talking about it on Twitter,
Speaker 1: on Facebook, on Tumbler, probably on Snapchat. Uh. I don't
Speaker 1: think it can quite compete with some of the other
Speaker 1: pictures on Snapchat, but there's probably a few things. So
Speaker 1: while we're there, back in two thousand ten, two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: let's not stop there. Let's travel further back in time
Speaker 1: to the Iron Age. Okay, here we are, so listeners,
Speaker 1: imagine that you're living in the Iron Age, and imagine
Speaker 1: that you're an average person, pretty successful in your community
Speaker 1: by the standards of the time. Now, you're not extraordinarily
Speaker 1: successful like a warlord or religious figure or a blacksmith.
Speaker 1: In fact, you're overwhelmingly likely to be a farmer. And
Speaker 1: you measure days not necessarily in hours, but in terms
Speaker 1: of the world's natural rhythm day tonight, the position of
Speaker 1: the sun, phase of the moon, winter to spring and
Speaker 1: back again. And you do not travel widely because this
Speaker 1: would make it difficult to take care of the vital
Speaker 1: crops upon which you and your family depend. Not to mention,
Speaker 1: it would take a long time to get very far
Speaker 1: at all. Right, that's exactly right. And there's I also
Speaker 1: have a video about how long it will take to
Speaker 1: walk around the world for brain stuff. And even today
Speaker 1: it's very, very difficult and pretty dangerous. So forget about
Speaker 1: it in the Iron Age. And you know, let's say
Speaker 1: you're content despite the high rates of child mortality. You
Speaker 1: and your partner have had some kids and they're farming too,
Speaker 1: and you know, you you feel like life is good
Speaker 1: until imagine one day a stranger comes to your community.
Speaker 1: This is a person so different to that at first
Speaker 1: you think maybe they're not human at all, perhaps they're
Speaker 1: some sort of divine creature, an angel, a demon. This
Speaker 1: creature turns out to be a time traveler from uh
Speaker 1: in this example, specifically, Matt Frederick. And Matt tells you
Speaker 1: that the world beyond your flat plane and crops and
Speaker 1: adjacent villages extends beyond the horizon farther further. We're talking philosophically.
Speaker 1: Then you might imagine. And if you start walking today,
Speaker 1: says the time traveling Matt Frederick, and you always head west,
Speaker 1: you will end up not off the edge of the earth,
Speaker 1: but back here in this very spot you are standing.
Speaker 1: Horsewah And why is that? You ask? And the time
Speaker 1: traveler says, because, of course the earth is round. You
Speaker 1: forget the time traveler as you so you don't have
Speaker 1: to do a voice because the world is round. Now,
Speaker 1: you might not believe this guy at first, and even
Speaker 1: if you did, your community might kill him anyway, because
Speaker 1: that's how people are. Which here's the other thing. You're
Speaker 1: going to need a swimsuit because there will be some
Speaker 1: swimming involved. But however, you can do this, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's the end of the world, or at least
Speaker 1: the the end of the edge of the world as
Speaker 1: we know it. So let's talk about ancient civilizations. It
Speaker 1: is true that in the Iron Age people did believe
Speaker 1: that the Earth was flat. Numerous ancient civilizations did think
Speaker 1: that right all over the world. Yeah, that includes parts
Speaker 1: of India before the Gupta period, Grease up to the
Speaker 1: Classical period, parts of China, Native American cultures, and on
Speaker 1: and on. People actually also believe Earth was covered by
Speaker 1: a solid dome called the firmament, which is you term
Speaker 1: me seeing the Bible a lot, right, like if you
Speaker 1: got high enough into the heavens, you would eventually hit
Speaker 1: just yeah, it's almost like a glass ceiling of sorts
Speaker 1: the way it's described. Sometimes I see it as a
Speaker 1: snow globe almost just above. There's a picture on the
Speaker 1: House Stuff Works website that kind of gives you a
Speaker 1: great idea, and that is on the article how creationism works.
Speaker 1: And it's just it's a cool illustration of the concept
Speaker 1: of yeah, exactly. And most of China pretty much accepted
Speaker 1: the idea of a flat earth until apparently meeting missionaries
Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century, who are like, guys, we're gonna
Speaker 1: blow your minds and double checked with myself. Just just
Speaker 1: wanted to put this out there. The Bible does mention
Speaker 1: the firmament seventeen times, but it actually is referring to
Speaker 1: a expanse beyond the sky, So the expanse of the
Speaker 1: heaven above the earth. Okay, they almost wore a little
Speaker 1: head of the curve. Yeah, if you think about it.
Speaker 1: And we'll find out more about that too. So there
Speaker 1: are some myths we need to bust about belief in
Speaker 1: the flat earth in the ancient world. Okay, we'll talk
Speaker 1: about where this argument for a spherical world came from.
Speaker 1: But first one of us that one of the biggest myths.
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, If you were already listening to the show,
Speaker 1: then we imagine that you know this is a fact.
Speaker 1: But just in case you are still in a situation
Speaker 1: where your history teachers are misleading you, probably with the
Speaker 1: best of intentions, let's let's get it out of the
Speaker 1: way now. Crystal ball Cologne Street named Christopher Columbus was
Speaker 1: a gigantic jerk. As a monster, he was like, uh,
Speaker 1: the noid, if the noid was a genocidal slaver. That's
Speaker 1: a deep cut, my friend, that's a deep cut. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was just I was thinking about the noise. Remember
Speaker 1: the video game was Second Genesis. I played it on
Speaker 1: a different console. Thennoid was big dominoes. Look up Nooid.
Speaker 1: Maybe a better thing would be she was the Martin
Speaker 1: Scully of his day. Is that better? Okay? But despite
Speaker 1: all the terrible things he did, all the just monstrous
Speaker 1: atrocities he committed or helped commit, he was not a
Speaker 1: stupid man. He was not like the dullest crayon in
Speaker 1: the box. He, like most of the people at the time,
Speaker 1: knew the Earth was round. It was common knowledge. He
Speaker 1: did not prove it. He uh. But if anything, the
Speaker 1: big argument was about how big or small the Earth was,
Speaker 1: It was not about the shape. Sure seems to me
Speaker 1: if anyone was going to know first that the Earth
Speaker 1: was round, it would be somebody in the nautical profession,
Speaker 1: you know, like like a captain and someone that spends
Speaker 1: time out on the sea right where you could see
Speaker 1: the actual curvature. Also was a big thing, A big
Speaker 1: superstition among um seafaring types was that you would reach
Speaker 1: the end of the Earth right and they fall off,
Speaker 1: and that they were like there be monsters, kind of incognita.
Speaker 1: It's true, but so why did this myth come about?
Speaker 1: Where As a guy named James Hannum who wrote piece
Speaker 1: called science versus Christianity, and we have a quote for
Speaker 1: you directly from him. The myth that people in the
Speaker 1: Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat appears to date
Speaker 1: from the seventeenth century as part of the campaign by
Speaker 1: Protestants against Catholic teaching, but it gained currency in the
Speaker 1: nineteenth century thanks to inaccurate history such as John William
Speaker 1: Draper's History of the Conflict between Religion and Science in
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy four and Andrew Dixon whites a History of
Speaker 1: the Warfare of Science with Theology and Christendom in eighteen
Speaker 1: ninety six. Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis of
Speaker 1: their own purposes, but history racal research gradually demonstrated that
Speaker 1: Draper and White had propagated more fantasy than fact in
Speaker 1: their efforts to prove that science and religion are locked
Speaker 1: in internal conflict. The myth that people in the Middle
Speaker 1: Ages thought the Earth was flat appears to date from
Speaker 1: the seventeenth century, as part of the campaign by Protestants
Speaker 1: against Catholic teaching, but it gained currency in the nineteenth
Speaker 1: century thanks to inaccurate history such as John William Draper's
Speaker 1: History of the Conflict between Religion and Science and Andrew
Speaker 1: Dixon White's A History of the Warfare of Science with
Speaker 1: Theology in Christendom. Atheist and agnostics championed the conflict thesis
Speaker 1: for their own purposes, but historical research gradually demonstrated that
Speaker 1: Draper and White had propagated more fantasy than fiction in
Speaker 1: their efforts to prove that science and religion are locked
Speaker 1: in eternal conflict. So essentially, what happened here The reason
Speaker 1: that we have this longstanding stereotype about people in the
Speaker 1: ancient world is because two guys with an agenda popularize
Speaker 1: something to make it look as though science and faith
Speaker 1: are always at loggerheads. And you know, if you go
Speaker 1: back even further, it was a religious insult that the
Speaker 1: Protestants channeled against the Catholics. So let's talk about the truth.
Speaker 1: The concept of a round Earth dates all the way
Speaker 1: back to at least Pythagoras and Aristotle, so you could
Speaker 1: argue that in the eighth century BC, the biblical writer
Speaker 1: Isaiah alluded to a spherical Earth. In Isaiah quote, he
Speaker 1: sits enthroned upon the circle of the Earth. Then in
Speaker 1: the third century BC, Hellenistic astronomy established without a doubt,
Speaker 1: factual proof of Earth's spherical shape. So this comes to
Speaker 1: us from astronomy. And we had talked about whether this
Speaker 1: came from people in a nautical profession. But keeping my
Speaker 1: at this point in time, astronomers and those in maritime
Speaker 1: occupations were were intertwined in terms of skill sets. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean astronomy or rather the nautical mapping and you know,
Speaker 1: making the charts is essentially functional astronomy. I mean it's
Speaker 1: using the stars to you know, plot your course. Did
Speaker 1: you guys know that? Did you hear the NPR story
Speaker 1: about this recently where the Navy is going back to teaching, uh,
Speaker 1: teaching the students like where I'm actually well we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that later, but they're teaching people how to use
Speaker 1: the stars and navigate again. Right, Yeah, Then that's a
Speaker 1: that's a valuable skill once once you know it, you
Speaker 1: can keep an eye on it. Because it's true that
Speaker 1: constellations do change over time, but the scale of that
Speaker 1: change is so vast in comparison to you know, human
Speaker 1: lives that you can pretty much count on these as
Speaker 1: a fixed point. I think it's great. I think they
Speaker 1: never should have stopped teaching. Right from there, the belief
Speaker 1: and around Earth's spread gradually throughout the world. People knew, yeah,
Speaker 1: but Ben, is it really a sphere? Yeah? I guess
Speaker 1: you're right. I guess it's better to call it an ellipsoid.
Speaker 1: But still we knew, yeah, it's kind of squashed, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so case closed? Right? Or is it? Here's where it
Speaker 1: gets crazy, the flat earth theory. Okay, yes, we said
Speaker 1: earlier Mesopotamian cultures believed that Earth was a disk. We
Speaker 1: have had as a species, so many different shapes for Earth.
Speaker 1: But obviously, if you're standing in one spot, you see
Speaker 1: a mountain, you see an ocean. What's that old poem?
Speaker 1: I looked around from where I stood and saw three
Speaker 1: mountains and a wood. Um, it's a great poem. But
Speaker 1: the the ideas that we were limited for a long
Speaker 1: time because the signs that could prove to us the
Speaker 1: position of the Sun and the and the moon and
Speaker 1: Earth and the shape of those things were difficult to interpret.
Speaker 1: So of course we thought it was flat for a while.
Speaker 1: But well, let alone, what is the sun? What is
Speaker 1: the moon? You know? What are what are these things
Speaker 1: made of? What am I seeing far out there? We
Speaker 1: know that something is there? But what is it? Is
Speaker 1: it angry at me? I mean, that's the kind of
Speaker 1: world people lived in. So gradually as the at least
Speaker 1: in the West, the Hellenistic realization of earth as a
Speaker 1: ellipsoid spread across the world. Some people even today apparently
Speaker 1: didn't buy it. And he said, that's a bunch of
Speaker 1: horse wash, uh, And so so let's look at some
Speaker 1: of the modern day stuff. In ninety six, Samuel Shelton
Speaker 1: founded a society that had a theory about the shape
Speaker 1: of the Earth, namely, it's flat. We're a pancake. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and he based these ideas just on walking around
Speaker 1: observing things and going, hey, al right, well everything's looking
Speaker 1: pretty flat around here. Common sense, yeah, personal observation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a tetic method, the idea that we can only
Speaker 1: encounter things through our own senses. Yes, my, my, this
Speaker 1: one uh, focal point of consciousness understands it in this way.
Speaker 1: And he called scientific evidence for a globe shaped earth dogmatic.
Speaker 1: So he said scientists were making this claim without adequate evidence.
Speaker 1: Basically they were following a party line, right, Which is
Speaker 1: very interesting right when it when you're thinking about some
Speaker 1: of these criticisms that came from the religious angles back
Speaker 1: when the Protestants were criticizing Catholic beliefs, it's just interesting
Speaker 1: to then throw it right onto science. But this was
Speaker 1: also a nineteen like this nineteen fifty six, So keep
Speaker 1: in mind, Shelton lived long enough to see pictures of
Speaker 1: Earth taken by satellites and what do you do then, Well,
Speaker 1: of course he claimed that they were fake. I mean,
Speaker 1: of course they were fake. Right, He and the members
Speaker 1: of a Society continue to support the idea that Earth
Speaker 1: is flat, and the people who disagreed are just part
Speaker 1: of a vast conspiracy to hide the truth about Earth's
Speaker 1: inherent flatness. Right, everybody's in the pockets a big globe manufacturers.
Speaker 1: Uh So, Shelton passed away in nine A guy named
Speaker 1: Charles Johnson took over leadership and led the society until
Speaker 1: two thousand and one. Critics of the Flatter Society say
Speaker 1: that it's members just deny any evidence that conflicts with
Speaker 1: their worldview, and they, you know, members who are in
Speaker 1: the Flatter Society and genuinely believe this would probably say
Speaker 1: the same thing about their opponents. That's how these kind
Speaker 1: of arguments typically go. It sounds like a bunch of
Speaker 1: contrarians if you ask me, yes, yeah, I mean who
Speaker 1: who isn't? Wait? Did you guys just both agree? Uh uh?
Speaker 1: And by the way, right now, a gentleman named Daniel
Speaker 1: Enton is running the Flat Earth Society. He brought it
Speaker 1: back up in two thousand nine. And if you go
Speaker 1: to the Flat Earth Society dot org you can find
Speaker 1: the forums that are active there. I think in the
Speaker 1: the Guardian article that I read there he said there
Speaker 1: were only there are only a few active members. They
Speaker 1: are non ironic, and I you know, in this case,
Speaker 1: of course, I'm not gonna cast dispersion on someone for
Speaker 1: their personal beliefs. You know what I mean. You believe
Speaker 1: what you want. No one should control your mind. However,
Speaker 1: he goes all the way back to ancient Greeks, and
Speaker 1: even that's a little um western centric, because the odds
Speaker 1: are that there were other ancient civilizations that figured this
Speaker 1: out before the Greeks. Just it's possible, and it's possible
Speaker 1: that we wouldn't know because there's a dearth of evidence.
Speaker 1: But they learned by measuring shadows, and that's that's what
Speaker 1: led them say, oh, the planet's surface must be curved.
Speaker 1: And and the astronomers, as Noel mentioned, figured out the
Speaker 1: world was round. And then we have to look at
Speaker 1: the idea of creationism. Listeners, if you are creationists, that
Speaker 1: is your belief system, and you subscribe to that, then
Speaker 1: of course I'm not going to um. As I said,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to cast dispersion on someone's personal faith,
Speaker 1: but I'm willing to wage your odds are that if
Speaker 1: you're listening to this show right now or any podcast,
Speaker 1: you also know that the Earth is round modern um. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: so back when the idea of a flat earth was
Speaker 1: more common, when most people in the West where some
Speaker 1: form of creationists, uh, they believed that the Earth was flat,
Speaker 1: it was a mobile and it was at the very
Speaker 1: center of the universe. It was the bull's eye on
Speaker 1: the great cosmic dartboard, and it was covered by the
Speaker 1: solid dome like sky. And and this goes to that
Speaker 1: firmament that Noel mentioned earlier, and you see it mentioned
Speaker 1: in Genesis. Uh, the sun, stars and moon or embedded
Speaker 1: in this dome. But that turns out not to be
Speaker 1: the case. We've actually sent somebody. We've actually sent some
Speaker 1: nifty robots and rockets out into space. We've had people
Speaker 1: in orbit who have had life changing experiences by looking
Speaker 1: at the Earth all at once, allegedly allegedly, do you
Speaker 1: know any astronauts? Well, it's so funny to me that
Speaker 1: that point of logic, and it goes back to how
Speaker 1: we were discussing. If you can if you can argue
Speaker 1: something well enough, then perhaps you can be right even
Speaker 1: if you are completely wrong. You can win the argument
Speaker 1: whether you are the substance of your argument. Isn't that
Speaker 1: the whole point of debate? Like the debate Club? I mean,
Speaker 1: aren't there exercises where you just take on a completely
Speaker 1: absurd position and your job is to just defended victorious.
Speaker 1: If I could have a rebuttal. Another interesting thing to
Speaker 1: know about the beliefs of how the flat Earth would
Speaker 1: function physically is how gravity would work in this scenario.
Speaker 1: So I I never really understood it until we began
Speaker 1: researching again. And so the idea on this flat plane
Speaker 1: as it's moving upwards, so the idea on this flat
Speaker 1: plane is that there is no gravity per se, because
Speaker 1: there's not one central location as there would be on
Speaker 1: a spherical or a planet shaped the way that Earth
Speaker 1: is shaped, where it's pulling everything in and spinning to
Speaker 1: hold everything to the surface. In this scenario, the flat
Speaker 1: plane is moving upwards at a speed that would when
Speaker 1: you jump up in the air and you come back down.
Speaker 1: The reason that that's happening is because the Earth is
Speaker 1: coming up to meet you essentially, which is interesting. The
Speaker 1: Earth is moving and you are not, so it's a
Speaker 1: force of acceleration. Yes, I see. And and then we've
Speaker 1: we've seen other computing beliefs. I guess we should talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about the different cons ups of the
Speaker 1: outlay or the geography of the flat Earth. Right, how
Speaker 1: the there's the common belief that the north poles at
Speaker 1: the very center, which of Earth is at the very
Speaker 1: center of the universe, makes the North pole place the
Speaker 1: most important place. And then it's uh, it's ringed around.
Speaker 1: The edges of the world are ringed around by what
Speaker 1: we mistake as the South Pole, and it's really a
Speaker 1: wall of ice. And our colleague Christian Seger wrote a
Speaker 1: great piece and now about this where he said, picture
Speaker 1: picture the wall from the night's watch, but just lit out.
Speaker 1: You know, trolls, monsters, they're called white walkers. Oh, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: there is a map that you can find of the
Speaker 1: way the Earth looks in the flat Earth view, and
Speaker 1: that if you superimpose that map in particular with the
Speaker 1: U N map, it is pretty much the same thing.
Speaker 1: But when if you look at it, it's just a
Speaker 1: version of a projection from the top down, from the
Speaker 1: North pole down. Now, we also found uh, we also
Speaker 1: learned about a group of people called geocentrists who believe
Speaker 1: that Earth may not be flat, but it's definitely the
Speaker 1: center of everything, and it is immobile, and that the
Speaker 1: Sun rotates around the Earth in twenty four hour periods,
Speaker 1: and all other planets rotate around the Sun. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a complex thing. Um. This is this is also
Speaker 1: generally a religious based belief. Uh. They're the people, I
Speaker 1: guess you would call radical geocentrist, Uh, refer to a
Speaker 1: religious text alone and reject all modern astronomy, physics, and cosmology. Um.
Speaker 1: And also some believe that the sky is still a
Speaker 1: solid dome. Yeah, which takes us to modern believers. Listeners.
Speaker 1: We received so many, so many questions on YouTube, on Facebook,
Speaker 1: on Twitter, where conspiracy stuff at all of those? By
Speaker 1: the way, if you want to, uh, you wanna give
Speaker 1: us a little bit of Internet love, like comments, subscribe, etcetera.
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. We read a lot
Speaker 1: from B O B A Tila Tequila. Who are the
Speaker 1: reason this became a mainstream thing? Again? Well, the whole
Speaker 1: thing kind of started when a MS Tequila angel Tila
Speaker 1: love is her Twitter handle, She said, it's and nobody
Speaker 1: has been able to prove to me that the Earth
Speaker 1: is around. Where's the curvature in the horizon? Hashtag flat earth?
Speaker 1: Proved me wrong? Dang it? And this continued, said not
Speaker 1: gonna get over this. Why are all the buildings in
Speaker 1: New York standing straight up? If Earth was round, some
Speaker 1: of the buildings would have a slight tilt. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then if Earth is a spinning globe, how come airplanes
Speaker 1: can still land without crashing because the face of the
Speaker 1: Earth is flat, not a globe. And yeah, I I
Speaker 1: don't you know, I know it's it's such a safe
Speaker 1: pitchforky thing for people to uh dogpile on someone. But
Speaker 1: how sincere is this? I wonder if you have been
Speaker 1: following Tia Tequila at all. She has been She's been
Speaker 1: going down this interesting little I let's call it a
Speaker 1: rabbit hole of looking into some of the things that
Speaker 1: we have looked into in the past and covered and discussed,
Speaker 1: um that seemingly internalizing them quite a bit per perhaps
Speaker 1: I know that she. I can't speak for her, but
Speaker 1: she seems to be very um invested in believing some
Speaker 1: of these things and taking them at face value. And
Speaker 1: there's another player in the game, another celebrity who mentioned this,
Speaker 1: who is an MC that I have quite a high
Speaker 1: opinion of the rapper b o B. Yes, yes, and
Speaker 1: you have actually a verse on that, right or a
Speaker 1: verse from that. No, it's not a bo b ver
Speaker 1: so I had mentioned. There's a there's a group I
Speaker 1: really enjoy from Chicago called the Anti Pop Consortium and
Speaker 1: they have a line that's your world is flat. Haha.
Speaker 1: You fell off hoping that the laws of gravity will
Speaker 1: bring you back to Earth. If not, okay, your words
Speaker 1: fall lighter than air, so float away and disappear into
Speaker 1: a black hole sun Ah. So someone falls off the
Speaker 1: edge of the planet and into a black hole. That's
Speaker 1: that's terrible. That's a black hole disturbingly close to Earth,
Speaker 1: ardless of what shape it is. Well, okay, so Bob
Speaker 1: began also um tweeting about a flat Earth. What what
Speaker 1: kind of stuff was he saying? Uh, there was a
Speaker 1: picture that he posted and I don't know exactly where
Speaker 1: it is. I'm assuming it's in Atlanta. I can't that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I thought that's what it might be, but
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure. But someone standing out top of the
Speaker 1: mountain and then way in the distance you can see
Speaker 1: I guess this said like a city, which would presumably
Speaker 1: be Atlanta or another small, uh suburb somewhere in there,
Speaker 1: and it says the city is in the background, are
Speaker 1: approximately sixteen miles apart. Where's the curve? Please explain this? In?
Speaker 1: My favorite response was I don't think he was legit
Speaker 1: saying the Earth is flat. He's been on planes. I
Speaker 1: think he was just asking, and so responded Tom foolery.
Speaker 1: Even in a plane, you can't see a curve. That's true,
Speaker 1: but it's like, what's the what's the deal, Ben, give
Speaker 1: us the skinny? Uh, so there is. It's it's in
Speaker 1: some ways a matter of perception again, sort of that
Speaker 1: zetetic method that that says, well, who made this map,
Speaker 1: who made this globe? Who is telling me what to believed?
Speaker 1: And on a personal level, I identify with that kind
Speaker 1: of instinct wholeheartedly. However, the problem is that the science
Speaker 1: is fairly conclusive, and by fairly I am woefully understating it. Uh.
Speaker 1: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the famous science science communicator I guess
Speaker 1: would be the technical term or science popularizer, UH, went
Speaker 1: on national television recently to UH speak about this. He
Speaker 1: also had a Twitter conversation with b O b about it.
Speaker 1: He did something of a virtual mic drop. I heard
Speaker 1: about that in a real one on the nightly show. Right,
Speaker 1: so it became it became a matter of public debate.
Speaker 1: But a question posed in the video here, that's that's
Speaker 1: the state of affairs right now, folks. A question posed
Speaker 1: in the video coming out next week. UH really stuck
Speaker 1: with me and I'm still wondering, because, yes, is this genuine?
Speaker 1: Is it? A market employee? Bob was also talking about
Speaker 1: clone factories, which I think is an order of magnitude
Speaker 1: more plausible um that people could For me, it's certainly
Speaker 1: more fascinating imagining organs YEA or clone. You know, the
Speaker 1: parts of the body we need. But this there's a
Speaker 1: third question here and that's the one that really bothers
Speaker 1: me and listeners. Um, when we asked this question. We
Speaker 1: really want to hear from you on this, and I
Speaker 1: want to hear what you guys think to know, Matt,
Speaker 1: is this a distraction move? What? What's not being paid
Speaker 1: attention to? I bring up my roommate Frank a lot um,
Speaker 1: and he tends to think that most public figures that
Speaker 1: say things like this, like let's say Kanye West for example,
Speaker 1: you know, tweeting that Cosby is innocent, whatever your opinions are,
Speaker 1: that it's not a very popular thing to say in
Speaker 1: all caps with no qualifying comments. Um, you know, saying
Speaker 1: Donald Trump some of the inflammatory things that he says. Uh.
Speaker 1: Someone like Frank, my skeptical roommate, would say that all
Speaker 1: of these people are playing on um public outrage um,
Speaker 1: and they are doing what you call garnering earned media,
Speaker 1: because you know, when you say something outlandish like that
Speaker 1: that's very divisive, you know, people are going to chime
Speaker 1: in on one side or the other, and then those
Speaker 1: people are gonna go at each other, you know, and
Speaker 1: it just generates this whole domino effect where you generate
Speaker 1: this media, you know storm, shall we say, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden we're in a room talking about it, right,
Speaker 1: or tweeting about it, or looking at comments or reading
Speaker 1: things on BuzzFeed. And you know, I would never comment
Speaker 1: on any of that stuff, but I sure as hell
Speaker 1: read the comments a lot there, entertaining stuff or chiming
Speaker 1: in with, you know, an opinion that that other people
Speaker 1: are also either reinforcing and supporting. It becomes an echo chamber.
Speaker 1: But again, the thing I ask is, you know know
Speaker 1: that sounds like we're coming on your end, We're coming
Speaker 1: down on the side of UM marketing employ Well what
Speaker 1: I what I didn't get to yet and where Frank
Speaker 1: and I sometimes differ is I think sometimes a combination
Speaker 1: of both UM Like, I think that there is a
Speaker 1: certain point where you can take a belief, take an opinion,
Speaker 1: and kind of balloon it into Okay, I'm gonna really
Speaker 1: like ride this crazy training all the way to Valhalla.
Speaker 1: You know, witnessed me, du witnessed me on my Twitter
Speaker 1: meltdown shining and Chrome. Yeah, that's that's in the Chrome browser,
Speaker 1: in the chromes. I would positive that this is a
Speaker 1: reaction to a blurring line between what we perceive as
Speaker 1: reality and what is possible to create with computers. And
Speaker 1: by that I mean I mean photoshopping is so advanced now,
Speaker 1: video effects are so advanced. When you are handed a
Speaker 1: piece of evidence, physical evidence that is digital, I think
Speaker 1: it is not only right to be skept coal of
Speaker 1: whatever you've just been handed, um, but not necessarily to
Speaker 1: the point of completely disbelieving everything. Then seem like a
Speaker 1: particularly functional conspiracy though, Like if the government and scientists
Speaker 1: are going out of their way, above and beyond to
Speaker 1: fake all this data to what, to what end? That's
Speaker 1: the most important question. Well, I'm glad you asked it.
Speaker 1: That's the most important question. That's the part I can't care.
Speaker 1: If the Earth was flat, Let it be flat. We'd
Speaker 1: we'd figure we'd figure out how to make it work. Right,
Speaker 1: The vast majority of people are not going to it's
Speaker 1: it's not going to matter to the day to day
Speaker 1: life of the vast majority of people whether the Earth
Speaker 1: is round or flat. Let's face it, the majority of
Speaker 1: humanity is not going to attempt to circumnavigate the globe.
Speaker 1: The majority of humanity will never be in danger of saying,
Speaker 1: oh crap, the ancient Mesopotamian cultures were right, and I
Speaker 1: learned too late. Now here I am leding off into
Speaker 1: the universe. So how would someone cover this up? That's
Speaker 1: a big question. How would you be able to keep
Speaker 1: this secret so effectively considering that nations are almost constantly
Speaker 1: a war, and then and you know, not really representing
Speaker 1: each other's interests. And then, more importantly ten dollar questions
Speaker 1: asked today, why why would you do this? You know,
Speaker 1: for frenzies. Okay, because it's you know, it's just sort
Speaker 1: of interesting to have secrets. I could just think of
Speaker 1: better things to keep people in the dark about, and
Speaker 1: this is just not one of them. Don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: There there there are quite a few. There are quite
Speaker 1: a few strange um things about the way the world
Speaker 1: is depicted. You know, no one, no one ever really
Speaker 1: questions in the US why the maps and the globes
Speaker 1: are oriented toward um with with the US dead center
Speaker 1: right and on top of the thing. We call it
Speaker 1: South America or something, when we know that there's no
Speaker 1: up and down in space. So it really makes no
Speaker 1: difference to an alien civilization or to anyone outside of
Speaker 1: this planet. Which continent is on top. But it's psychologically
Speaker 1: that's an important thing, you know. You know what My
Speaker 1: favorite depiction of a flat earth comes from let you
Speaker 1: know it, uh, from Terry Pratchett's Discworld. It's depicted as
Speaker 1: a disc um perched atop the backs of Is it
Speaker 1: two elephants? Is there a third one that I'm not seeing?
Speaker 1: It's either two or three. It would make more sense
Speaker 1: that it would be three because you got to, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of making a star shape and there it has
Speaker 1: let's be logically exactly, And then those elephants are standing
Speaker 1: on the shell of a giant tortoise and all of
Speaker 1: this whole array is floating in space, which is awesome.
Speaker 1: I love it. It's just it's a fabulous image. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's yeah, that's that's what I think. That's what
Speaker 1: this This makes me think of other conspiratorial things regarding maps.
Speaker 1: One thing that may interest you if you haven't checked
Speaker 1: it out yet, listeners, please spend some quality time with
Speaker 1: Google Maps, because Google Maps plays nice with all the
Speaker 1: countries of the world that it can if you ask
Speaker 1: them to hide a specific site, secret city, something like that.
Speaker 1: And yes, there's still quite a few of those uh,
Speaker 1: then Google will block it out for you as best
Speaker 1: they can. But Google also shows different borders for countries
Speaker 1: depending upon the origin point of the search, So you
Speaker 1: know there are massive ongoing uh border skirmishes as people
Speaker 1: say no, we own this, no I own this, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And Google is actively participating in something very much like
Speaker 1: a multi national conspiracy. But also you know they don't.
Speaker 1: It seems like the most efficacious way to avoid getting
Speaker 1: in trouble with the government is just tell both of
Speaker 1: them that they're right. That that is. That's some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that this leads me to think about what
Speaker 1: today we've done our flat Earth update. We'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from you guys. Do you mind if I wrap
Speaker 1: up this discussion with a quote? I would love that.
Speaker 1: So this is from a song by the much underappreciated
Speaker 1: artist Thomas Dolby, and it's from his album The Flat Earth,
Speaker 1: which I recommend highly So I've been listening to it
Speaker 1: a lot lately, and it's from the title track hold
Speaker 1: Me Baby. The Earth can be any shape you wanted,
Speaker 1: Love me, Darling, Believe me, Darling, any shape at all.
Speaker 1: Hold me Baby, dark and cold or bright and warm.
Speaker 1: Love me Darling, long or thin or small, Believe me, Darling,
Speaker 1: but it's home home. Maybe hold me, baby and all
Speaker 1: I ever had? Love me, Darling, And maybe why for
Speaker 1: me the leave me? Darling? The earth is flat? Interesting.
Speaker 1: I give a moment of silence out of respect. We
Speaker 1: have a couple of special announcements before we go. First,
Speaker 1: we would like you to check out our our upcoming
Speaker 1: guest host. We're gonna have a personal friend of mine
Speaker 1: that we have mentioned before, Damien Williams. Uh. You can
Speaker 1: find him on Twitter. He's at Wolven. He will be
Speaker 1: joining Nolan I for an episode on alchemy and an
Speaker 1: episode on technology and the occult cult cult Cult Cult
Speaker 1: Cult Cult Cult. But you're wondering, hey Ben, why didn't
Speaker 1: you mention Matt. Well, Matt, you're out a mission. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm on a completely disclosed mission to Charleston, South Carolina,
Speaker 1: or around about that area because I'm gonna head over
Speaker 1: to the to the Naval Nuclear Power Training Command. I'm
Speaker 1: calling it a campus because I don't know the correct terminology.
Speaker 1: It is a base, but they there is a campus
Speaker 1: within the base there. But I'm going to go and
Speaker 1: support my brother in law, who is I guess graduating
Speaker 1: up to the next level. Again, I don't know the terminology.
Speaker 1: It's not an accommodation or anything. He's just moving up
Speaker 1: the ranks in uh in the school. So I guess
Speaker 1: it's a graduation. Is it like getting a yellow belt.
Speaker 1: I think it's a little more significant than that, but yes,
Speaker 1: kind of yellow belts a big deal. I remember when
Speaker 1: I got my yellow belt. It was okay, I never
Speaker 1: got the yellow nice humble bag. But yeah, it's very cool.
Speaker 1: So what I'm going to attempt to do on Friday
Speaker 1: is broadcast live if you know, if it's not against
Speaker 1: too many protocols or if the signal strength is strong enough.
Speaker 1: Uh So, hopefully that will be interesting in some way
Speaker 1: because it's a it's a neat place. It's a place
Speaker 1: where a lot of people go who end up working
Speaker 1: in the nuclear sector in the US. I think you
Speaker 1: mean nuclear, Yes, in the nuclear uh power energy sector.
Speaker 1: So uh stay tuned for that. And Matt, I'm sure
Speaker 1: the rest of the listeners joining Noel and I am
Speaker 1: wishing you the best of luck. And don't push it, man,
Speaker 1: don't don't get don't get jammed up. We will see
Speaker 1: what happens, al right, So we're gonna get out of here.
Speaker 1: Riddle me this. Where can everybody find all of our
Speaker 1: audio podcast? Well, um, you can find them on iTunes.
Speaker 1: And if you get them on iTunes, you guys, leave
Speaker 1: a nice leave a review, you know, leave us a
Speaker 1: little review, a couple of stars, not not a couple?
Speaker 1: Do three at least, you know, four would be great,
Speaker 1: and write something, you know, because it really helps get
Speaker 1: the podcast out where people can see it. You know,
Speaker 1: the more reviews there are, the more the algorithm kind
Speaker 1: of pushes the show out to folks that maybe haven't
Speaker 1: discovered it yet. So that would be a great way
Speaker 1: to help the show. If you don't, if ituns is
Speaker 1: not your jam and you're more of a Stitcher, Spotify,
Speaker 1: Google Play. Um, is that all of them? There's are
Speaker 1: the ones that's coming out every day. But we're pretty
Speaker 1: much available on any platform that you can get podcast
Speaker 1: or you can go directly to our website. You can
Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know dot com. What
Speaker 1: can they find their Matt. You can find everything we've
Speaker 1: ever produced, y'alls, and it's good. Is everything, videos, podcasts, pictures,
Speaker 1: tasty cakes. Oh wait, no, no, you can't get tasty
Speaker 1: cakes there. I'm sorry soon one day hope springs eternal.
Speaker 1: That's correct, and if you don't want to do any
Speaker 1: of that stuff, guys, just shoot us an email. We
Speaker 1: are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com. From one
Speaker 1: on this topic another unexplained phenomenon, visit YouTube dot com
Speaker 1: slash conspiracy. You can also get in touch on Twitter
Speaker 1: at the handle at conspiracy stuff and me