WEBVTT - COVID-19 Chapter 4: Epidemiology

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm Katie Berson. I live in Japan with my

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<v Speaker 1>husband and two daughters, Louisa and Zuzu. They're five and three.

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<v Speaker 1>And we had heard about the coronavirus, which is what

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<v Speaker 1>we were calling it at that point, maybe just a

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<v Speaker 1>few weeks before we were scheduled to go on our cruise.

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<v Speaker 1>The cruise was leaving out of Yokohama coming back to Yokohama.

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<v Speaker 1>It was really ideal because we didn't have to fly anywhere,

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<v Speaker 1>which we thought would be safer. But you know, my mom,

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<v Speaker 1>who is actually a manager at a hospital laboratory, was

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<v Speaker 1>all up in arms. She's like, please see if you

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<v Speaker 1>can cancel. I'm really worried about it. And we were like, oh, mom,

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<v Speaker 1>it's fine, and so, you know, we we actually had

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<v Speaker 1>to meet with the Preventive Medicine Officer BECA because we're

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<v Speaker 1>in the service, prior to leaving, just to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>our vaccinations were up to date, and we were, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>aware of what the risks were, it didn't really come

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<v Speaker 1>into play. We met with her two weeks prior than

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<v Speaker 1>the week prior to our departure, and it wasn't a concern.

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<v Speaker 1>It was just wash your hands, you know, like, don't

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<v Speaker 1>be stupid. So my husband and my daughters decided not

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<v Speaker 1>to get off the ship in Hong Kong because we

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<v Speaker 1>didn't want to risk it with the girls. We didn't

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<v Speaker 1>really know what we were dealing with, but I went ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>I wore that was our second stop on the cruise,

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<v Speaker 1>so we're like five days into the cruise. I carried

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<v Speaker 1>my hand sanitizer. We exercised what we thought was you know,

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<v Speaker 1>extreme caution, which at this point now we actually know

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<v Speaker 1>what extreme caution is. But anyway, I came directly back

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<v Speaker 1>onto the boat, got in a shower, washed the clothes.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we were trying to be as careful as

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<v Speaker 1>we could. I didn't say hello to the girls. They

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<v Speaker 1>were in their kid camp for the day until I

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<v Speaker 1>had like thoroughly dejermed. But then, you know, we carried on.

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<v Speaker 1>We didn't have any other real concerns or red flags

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<v Speaker 1>with the virus until we got to Okinelwa, which was

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<v Speaker 1>our last stop of the cruise, and they said that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the Japanese Ministry of Health is exercising caution

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<v Speaker 1>and needs to scan each individual passenger prior to them deboarding.

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<v Speaker 1>So we were delayed somewhere between three and five hours

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<v Speaker 1>getting off the boat, because they were scanning everyone, and

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<v Speaker 1>so we thought, man, you know, I guess things are

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<v Speaker 1>ramping up. It must be, you know, more of a concern.

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<v Speaker 1>But we still didn't think, or we didn't know, and

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think anyone did know what it really was,

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<v Speaker 1>like an animal that we were dealing with until two

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<v Speaker 1>days later when we arrived in Yokohama. And Aaron's this

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<v Speaker 1>part was like so surreal. We're sitting there at our

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<v Speaker 1>last dinner and the white stuff must have known what

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<v Speaker 1>was up. They must have been briefs because they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>miss a beat. They can continued serving, they didn't pause

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<v Speaker 1>to listen. There wasn't a reaction. But the captain came

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<v Speaker 1>on and he spoken English first, and of course the

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<v Speaker 1>dining room is primarily English passengers Japanese passengers, so he

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<v Speaker 1>spoke in English first. He explained that there was a

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<v Speaker 1>passenger who had boarded at Yokohama, stayed on only until

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<v Speaker 1>Hong Kong and then deboarded because he wasn't feeling well

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<v Speaker 1>and Hong Kong was his home and he had tested

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<v Speaker 1>positive for the coronavirus, and so you know, my husband

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<v Speaker 1>and I just kind of look at each other. We

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to react because we don't want to alarm

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<v Speaker 1>the kids, so and also we didn't really know what

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<v Speaker 1>that meant for us. So we sat and we listened.

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<v Speaker 1>And then because we knew what was being said, once

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<v Speaker 1>the announcement was being made in Japanese, it was really

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<v Speaker 1>kind of eerie because I'm looking at the Japanese passengers

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<v Speaker 1>as they're receiving this information, and I could see the

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<v Speaker 1>colors draining from their face like they were right, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was very somber in the dining room. We

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<v Speaker 1>finished our meals and and we went back to our

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<v Speaker 1>room and we had to call, you know, a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of people that my husband worked with and say, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>here's the situation, and we passed. You know, we were

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<v Speaker 1>ready to get off the boat the next morning at

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<v Speaker 1>seven in the morning. And of course seven o'clock rolls around,

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<v Speaker 1>there's no announcements. Eight o'clock rolls around, there's no announcements.

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<v Speaker 1>Nine o'clock rolls around. The ship is being quarantined for

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<v Speaker 1>full fourteen days, and so we just, you know, we

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<v Speaker 1>took it as that, you know, it looks like we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be here for a while. We explained to

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<v Speaker 1>our girls there are bad germs. We don't think we

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<v Speaker 1>have any, but we have to keep them away. We're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be washing our hands. You may not leave

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<v Speaker 1>the room. And every day was different as far as

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<v Speaker 1>the information that we received. Obviously, the ship was in

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<v Speaker 1>reaction mode, so we didn't receive our meals that first

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<v Speaker 1>day until like three o'clock in the afternoon, which is

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<v Speaker 1>really hard with kids, but we never blame them. There

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<v Speaker 1>was never any anger. It was just everybody's trying to

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<v Speaker 1>do their best to keep this thing contained. Really, the

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<v Speaker 1>staff and crew on the ship really rallied to keep

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<v Speaker 1>the kids entertained. I mean, gosh, they ate so many

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<v Speaker 1>kids meals and they had so many toys delivered. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we just exercised extreme caution and it paid off. We

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<v Speaker 1>all came off healthy and well. And then we went

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<v Speaker 1>straight from the boat to another fourteen day quarantine. Because

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<v Speaker 1>we live on a military base, people look at me

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<v Speaker 1>and they're like, God, you've been through something, and it

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<v Speaker 1>must have been so hard. But really, like truly, I

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<v Speaker 1>got to wake up with my babies snuggled next to

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<v Speaker 1>me every day. I didn't have to cook. Like I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have to cook, I didn't have to clean. All

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<v Speaker 1>we had to do was play and be together and

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<v Speaker 1>hope for the best, you know, like you just control

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<v Speaker 1>what you can. And as a military family, I have

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<v Speaker 1>never in my entire marriage or since my kids have

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<v Speaker 1>been born, had six weeks of my husband all to myself.

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<v Speaker 1>And really the outcome of it it was kind of

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<v Speaker 1>just this like beautiful moment in humanity, Like so many

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<v Speaker 1>people cared. I mean, I was hearing from people that

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't spoken to in probably twenty years. And it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't just like a little message on Facebook. It was

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<v Speaker 1>like this like in depth message, like I'm praying for

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<v Speaker 1>you. You know, we can send you things, what do you need?

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<v Speaker 1>It was just really beautiful. People were delivering breakfast, lunch,

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<v Speaker 1>and dinner as if I couldn't cook, Like they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to do nice things. They wanted to reach out and help,

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<v Speaker 1>and it just made me feel like so loved and

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<v Speaker 1>so supported. And I think that would be like a

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<v Speaker 1>really great takeaway from this tragedy is you know, like

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<v Speaker 1>when we can work together and support each other, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a beautiful thing. And we should also value our older generations.

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<v Speaker 2>So you just heard from Katie Berson, who we were

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<v Speaker 2>so excited to connect with and talk about her experience

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<v Speaker 2>on the Diamond Princess. She was on the Diamond Princess, y'all. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>like that's about it. Yeah, famous, So thank you so much, Katie.

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<v Speaker 3>Also, I just Katie what an incredible human. She had

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<v Speaker 3>the most positive outlook I have ever heard from someone

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<v Speaker 3>who went through something like that and really helped me

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<v Speaker 3>try and see silver linings in things as well. So

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<v Speaker 3>I just really appreciated getting to speak with her too.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and I'm Aaron Alman Updike.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is this podcast will Kill You. Hello, Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>to chapter four of our Anatomy of a Pandemic series

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<v Speaker 2>on COVID nineteen. So far, we've discussed the biology of

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<v Speaker 2>the virus, how the disease progresses, and the control strategies

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<v Speaker 2>that we're using to slow its transmission, and in this

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<v Speaker 2>episode we dive into the epidemiological characteristics of this pandemic.

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<v Speaker 3>We brought back the amazing doctor Carlos del Rio, who

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<v Speaker 3>chatted with us in our first coronavirus episode back in

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<v Speaker 3>February about the importance of investing in global health. You

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<v Speaker 3>might remember his excellent Dolly Parton quote to.

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<v Speaker 2>Go along with that, I sure do so.

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<v Speaker 3>In this minisode, we ask him all about the ar

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<v Speaker 3>not of the virus, that reproductive rate of the virus,

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<v Speaker 3>and how to bring it down, what flattening the curve means,

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<v Speaker 3>and why we see different case fatality rates in different

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<v Speaker 3>regions of the world, and the absolute necessity of acting

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<v Speaker 3>now to help slow the spread of this disease. But

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<v Speaker 3>before we get into that, we have some business to

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<v Speaker 3>take care of. It's quarantiny time.

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<v Speaker 2>What are we drinking for this one?

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<v Speaker 3>A pickle Martini? Is that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>That's the one, A pickle martini.

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<v Speaker 2>Quarantini four, our first ever martini.

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<v Speaker 3>No boobo bavida.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, you're right, that was so long ago. Does

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<v Speaker 2>it ease steel trap? Aaron steel cap? Do you know

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<v Speaker 2>how difficult it is to like think of I'll be like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a great recipe, and then then I have

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<v Speaker 2>just through all of the old ones.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, if you also didn't know, we have a great

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<v Speaker 3>resource of all of our quarantinis on our website.

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<v Speaker 2>But yes, you can click the quarantini tab.

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<v Speaker 3>And all of our plusy burrita is the non alcoholic version,

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<v Speaker 3>which we'll post the recipe for this pickle pickled jalapeno martini.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you could also just use a pickle if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't have pickled klopenias. I didn't have a pickle, so

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<v Speaker 2>I had to use pickled hellipenions desperate times, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>desperate times. I wasn't going to go to the store

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<v Speaker 2>for a jar of pickles.

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<v Speaker 3>No, of course, not. Shelter in placed Aaron Shelter.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>Before diving into the interview, we also wanted to talk

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<v Speaker 3>a bit about the disease ecology since that's kind of

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<v Speaker 3>our forte of spillover events in general, and then go

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<v Speaker 3>through a timeline of events to give us an idea

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<v Speaker 3>of the spread of this virus. This timeline is it's intense.

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<v Speaker 3>It's intense, but it really gives us a good picture

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<v Speaker 3>of what exponential growth really looks like and.

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<v Speaker 2>How fast a disease like this can spread across the

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<v Speaker 2>entire world.

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<v Speaker 3>Math Man who knew?

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<v Speaker 2>Who knew? Mathematicians that's who, model or statisticians, good point epidemologists.

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<v Speaker 2>Any Ways, Anyways, the ecology of COVID nineteen and its emergence,

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<v Speaker 2>it deserves a more nuanced discussion. Then I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>give it here because we want to get to the

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<v Speaker 2>meat of this episode quickly, right, but we wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>touch on a few things. As has been reported in

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<v Speaker 2>peer reviewed articles as well as from experts on these episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>this virus likely emerged from a bat, which is also

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<v Speaker 2>where stars originated from bats. The COVID nineteen virus was

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<v Speaker 2>probably passed to another host before infecting humans. This sequence

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<v Speaker 2>of events a virus spread from bats to other animal species,

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<v Speaker 2>and then to humans. It's not unprecedented. In fact, this

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<v Speaker 2>has happened in many other disease outbreaks. And it does

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<v Speaker 2>not mean in bold underline, it does not mean that

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<v Speaker 2>killing bats or destroying their habitat will prevent spillover events.

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<v Speaker 2>So don't get your pitchforks out and start to try

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<v Speaker 2>to kill all the bats.

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<v Speaker 3>No, we're not blaming bats quote unquote blame.

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<v Speaker 2>This is how ecology works. It's just it doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>that bats are malicious or that we should kill the bats.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, doing those things like culling bat populations or

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<v Speaker 2>destroying their habitat that has been shown to actually lead

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<v Speaker 2>to an increase in disease outbreaks from bats. And spillover

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<v Speaker 2>events from bats. So bat conservation and the preservation of

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<v Speaker 2>habitats is actually one of the most important ways that

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<v Speaker 2>we can reduce over events and funding back conservation, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in regions that may not have the resources to do so.

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<v Speaker 2>That is crucial in this fight against emerging infectious diseases.

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<v Speaker 3>Also, bats provide really important ecosystem services. They're pollinators, they're

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<v Speaker 3>seed dispersers, they eat insects ones that annoy us, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>and they're also one of the most amazing and fascinating

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<v Speaker 3>groups of animals on this planet. This is our personal

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<v Speaker 3>opinion and the role that some bat species play in

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<v Speaker 3>some spillover events from wildlife to humans cannot and should

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<v Speaker 3>not be ignored. This is a multifaceted problem. Ignoring it

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<v Speaker 3>prevents a complete understanding of the ecology of these events

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<v Speaker 3>and how they happen, and it can ultimately be more

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<v Speaker 3>damaging to back conservation. If we want to prevent spillover

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<v Speaker 3>we need the complete picture. If you would like to

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<v Speaker 3>read more about the ecology of bat virus spillover events,

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<v Speaker 3>there are a couple of great papers by doctor RAINA.

0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.000
<v Speaker 3>Plowwright Boop Boop. She's awesome and we'll link to those

0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.599
<v Speaker 3>on our website. We're also going to put up a

0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 3>paper that discusses a lot of the ecosystem services that

0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.760
<v Speaker 3>bats provide. That's by koons at All on our website

0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.520
<v Speaker 3>as well. Cool Cool, don't hate the bats.

0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:24.000
<v Speaker 2>Don't hate the bats.

0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.000
<v Speaker 3>But also don't ignore the role that they play in

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:27.240
<v Speaker 3>these spillover events.

0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, Okay, Now onto the timeline. It's a big one.

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Let's start at the beginning.

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.000
<v Speaker 3>It's like eight pages of timeline.

0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.680
<v Speaker 2>I know, but you know, we're just going to work

0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.880
<v Speaker 2>through it. But I will say that you know, this

0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 2>is not even a complete timeline, Like, we cut a

0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of this out. And so what I have one

0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.040
<v Speaker 2>of the great resources I have found is and so

0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.280
<v Speaker 2>this is where we got all of this timeline information

0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 2>basically is from Al Jazeera. They have they're continually updating

0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.680
<v Speaker 2>a timeline about COVID nineteen across the entire globe, and

0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 2>so if you want really detailed information, that's the place

0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:07.640
<v Speaker 2>to go.

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:09.960
<v Speaker 3>Awesome, Okay, So.

0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Chinese officials are still looking for the patient zero quote

0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.040
<v Speaker 2>unquote of COVID nineteen, but it's possible that they will

0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.720
<v Speaker 2>never be identified. But what is clear is that the

0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.360
<v Speaker 2>disease had been spreading for a while before it was

0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:30.120
<v Speaker 2>recognized as a novel infection and one of concern. So

0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 2>what might be the earliest case of COVID nineteen was

0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.920
<v Speaker 2>traced to November seventeenth, twenty nineteen, in a fifty five

0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.960
<v Speaker 2>year old person, but that hasn't been confirmed. If it is, though,

0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.120
<v Speaker 2>that predates the wet market where the first apparent cluster

0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.520
<v Speaker 2>of COVID nineteen emerged, so community transmission might have been

0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.640
<v Speaker 2>going on for a while before it was recognized, or

0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.640
<v Speaker 2>it could have been amplified at that wet market, But

0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.200
<v Speaker 2>the market may not have necessarily been the site of

0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.280
<v Speaker 2>the spillover event, which I.

0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.640
<v Speaker 3>Feel like kind of makes sense to me in some cases,

0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.840
<v Speaker 3>because I know early on they were trying to identify,

0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 3>like what animal at the wet market, and we couldn't

0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:09.320
<v Speaker 3>really find a good one.

0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:10.400
<v Speaker 2>So if it was.

0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:14.000
<v Speaker 3>A person at the market who just happened to be

0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:18.560
<v Speaker 3>there infected that ended up causing sort of this spread,

0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:19.840
<v Speaker 3>that kind of makes sense.

0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:20.560
<v Speaker 4>Hmm.

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:22.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.640
<v Speaker 3>And honestly, a delay in recognizing a novel disease, especially

0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.560
<v Speaker 3>a respiratory infection whose symptoms can pretty easily be mistaken

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.440
<v Speaker 3>for diseases caused by a number of other respiratory viruses.

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.880
<v Speaker 3>It's not that unusual. It might take a while before

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.360
<v Speaker 3>you realize a that there is an unusual number of

0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:44.040
<v Speaker 3>pneumonia cases outside of the norm, and b that these

0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.200
<v Speaker 3>cases are caused by a new virus that you haven't

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.120
<v Speaker 3>seen before. So by late December, there were several cases

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 3>of unusual pneumonia caused by an unknown virus in Wuhan,

0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 3>and Chinese health officials notified the WHO of this on

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.240
<v Speaker 3>December thirty five.

0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:05.600
<v Speaker 2>First YEP. The next day, January first, the wet market

0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.800
<v Speaker 2>where this first cluster I mentioned was apparent. The Huanan

0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.080
<v Speaker 2>seafood wholesale market was shut down. At this point, there

0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:14.760
<v Speaker 2>were more than forty people infected.

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 3>On January seventh, officials announced they had identified a new virus.

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.320
<v Speaker 3>According to the World Health Organization, the novel virus at

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.399
<v Speaker 3>that time was named twenty nineteen n CoV and was

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.159
<v Speaker 3>identified as belonging to the coronavirus family.

0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.639
<v Speaker 2>January ninth, the first death from the virus occurs in China.

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.359
<v Speaker 3>January thirteenth, the World Health Organization reported a case in Thailand,

0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.359
<v Speaker 3>the first outside China, and a woman who had arrived

0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:41.280
<v Speaker 3>there from Wuhan.

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.200
<v Speaker 2>January sixteenth, Japan reports a confirmed case again from someone

0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>who had visited Wuhan.

0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:55.960
<v Speaker 3>Between January seventeenth and January twentieth. The US, Nepal, France, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore,

0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.280
<v Speaker 3>South Korea, Vietnam, and Taiwan all confirmed cases of this

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:01.960
<v Speaker 3>novel coronavirus.

0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:07.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's a matter of weeks, yep okay. January

0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.280
<v Speaker 2>twenty second, the death toll in China jumped to seventeen

0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.960
<v Speaker 2>with more than five hundred and fifty infections. Airports in

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Europe and Asia increased screenings of passengers traveling from China. Wow.

0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.679
<v Speaker 3>Five hundred and fifty by January twenty second.

0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:22.760
<v Speaker 2>I know, I keep getting chills when I read this

0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:23.760
<v Speaker 2>timeline me two.

0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:29.640
<v Speaker 3>January twenty third, Wuhan was placed under effective quarantine. At

0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.520
<v Speaker 3>this point, the WHO said there was no evidence of

0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.840
<v Speaker 3>the virus spreading between humans outside of China, and the

0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.560
<v Speaker 3>outbreak did not yet constitute a public emergency of international

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:40.240
<v Speaker 3>health concern.

0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>January twenty six, new cases were confirmed in the US, Taiwan, Thailand, Japan,

0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:47.720
<v Speaker 2>and South Korea.

0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.119
<v Speaker 3>January twenty seventh, the death toll in China rose to

0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 3>one hundred and six, with one hundred in Hubei Province.

0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 3>Another four thousand, five hundred and fifteen people in China

0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.800
<v Speaker 3>were reported to be infected. There were two thousand, seven

0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.879
<v Speaker 3>hundred confirmed cases in Hubei Province, up from fourteen hundred

0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:09.439
<v Speaker 3>twenty three the day before.

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.560
<v Speaker 2>It's like a doubling, essentially m HM. On January thirtieth,

0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:19.480
<v Speaker 2>the WHO declared COVID nineteen a global emergency, as the

0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 2>death toll in China jumped to one hundred and seventy

0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.320
<v Speaker 2>with seven thousand, seven hundred and eleven cases reported. On

0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.280
<v Speaker 2>this same date, India and the Philippines confirmed their first

0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:33.120
<v Speaker 2>cases of the virus, with one infected patient in each country.

0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.760
<v Speaker 3>January thirty first. The next day, the number of confirmed

0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:44.040
<v Speaker 3>cases in China jumped to nine thousand, eight hundred nine. Russia, Spain, Sweden,

0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.000
<v Speaker 3>and the UK all confirmed their first cases of the virus, and.

0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.040
<v Speaker 2>On February second, the first death outside China was reported

0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 2>in the Philippines.

0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.639
<v Speaker 3>On February sixth, the death toll in mainland China rose

0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.840
<v Speaker 3>to at least five hundred sixty three, with more than

0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:06.480
<v Speaker 3>twenty eight thousand cases confirmed Meanwhile, authorities in Malaysia reported

0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.760
<v Speaker 3>the country's first known human to human transmission, and the

0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.920
<v Speaker 3>number of people reported infected in Europe.

0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Reached thirty thirty thirty thirty February sixth. On February seventh,

0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Lee Wen Lang, a doctor who was among the first

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.960
<v Speaker 2>to sound the alarm over the coronavirus, died, and Hong

0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Kong introduced prison sentences for anyone breaching quarantine rules.

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.280
<v Speaker 3>On February ninth, the death toll in China surpassed that

0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.000
<v Speaker 3>of the two thousand and two two thousand and three

0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.480
<v Speaker 3>SARS epidemic, with eight hundred eleven deaths recorded and thirty

0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.959
<v Speaker 3>seven thousand, one hundred ninety eight infections. It's worth noting

0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:53.080
<v Speaker 3>the SARS epidemic infected around eight thousand people.

0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes On February eleventh, the WHO announced that the new

0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.840
<v Speaker 2>coronavirus would be called nineteen.

0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.119
<v Speaker 3>As of February twelfth, one hundred and seventy five people

0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.639
<v Speaker 3>were infected on board the Diamond Princess cruise ship.

0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.439
<v Speaker 2>February fourteenth, Egypt became the first country in Africa to

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.479
<v Speaker 2>report a case, and France reported Europe's first death from

0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:16.120
<v Speaker 2>the virus.

0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.359
<v Speaker 3>As of February seventeenth, there were one thousand, seven hundred

0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:24.880
<v Speaker 3>seventy deaths reported in mainland China and seventy thousand, five

0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:29.640
<v Speaker 3>hundred forty eight cases. Japan also confirmed ninety nine new

0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.120
<v Speaker 3>cases of the virus on board the quarantined Diamond Princess

0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:33.640
<v Speaker 3>cruise ship.

0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:38.800
<v Speaker 2>February eighteenth saw China's daily infection figures drop below two

0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.399
<v Speaker 2>thousand for the first time since January, with the country's

0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Health Commission reporting seventy two thousand, four hundred and thirty

0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.160
<v Speaker 2>six infections on the mainland and one thousand, eight hundred

0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:50.320
<v Speaker 2>and sixty eight deaths.

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:55.119
<v Speaker 3>On February nineteenth, Iran reported two deaths from the coronavirus

0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:57.520
<v Speaker 3>hours after confirming its first cases.

0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:00.960
<v Speaker 2>February twentieth, South Korea report or it's its first death

0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:02.080
<v Speaker 2>from the coronavirus.

0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.800
<v Speaker 3>February twenty second, South Korea saw its largest spike in

0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.160
<v Speaker 3>a single day, with two hundred and twenty nine new

0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.880
<v Speaker 3>cases of the virus. On that same day, Italy reported

0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:15.720
<v Speaker 3>its first two deaths, while Iran confirmed a fifth death

0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 3>among ten new infections. A sixth death was later confirmed,

0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.399
<v Speaker 3>though it wasn't clear whether this case was included in

0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:25.600
<v Speaker 3>the country's twenty eight confirmed cases.

0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.959
<v Speaker 2>February twenty six, the global death toll neared twenty eight hundred,

0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.960
<v Speaker 2>with a total of around eighty thousand confirmed cases reported globally.

0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:39.320
<v Speaker 2>On the same day, Norway, Romania, Greece, Georgia, Pakistan, North

0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Macedonia and Brazil all detected their first cases of the coronavirus.

0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:48.960
<v Speaker 3>On February twenty seventh, Estonia, Denmark, Northern Ireland and the

0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:53.360
<v Speaker 3>Netherlands reported their first coronavirus cases. The number of infections

0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:57.560
<v Speaker 3>globally passed eighty two thousand, including more than two thousand,

0:22:57.640 --> 0:22:58.639
<v Speaker 3>eight hundred deaths.

0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:02.720
<v Speaker 2>On March third, Italy announced the death toll in the

0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:06.560
<v Speaker 2>country reached seventy seven, equalling the total deaths in Iran,

0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:07.920
<v Speaker 2>which stood at seventy seven.

0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.840
<v Speaker 3>On March seventh, the coronavirus had killed nearly thirty five

0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.919
<v Speaker 3>hundred people and infected another one hundred and two thousand

0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:18.560
<v Speaker 3>people across more than ninety countries.

0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:23.439
<v Speaker 2>On March tenth, both Iran and Italy recorded their highest

0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.520
<v Speaker 2>death tolls in a single day. A total of fifty

0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.639
<v Speaker 2>four people died in Iran over a twenty four hour period,

0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:32.680
<v Speaker 2>while in Italy one hundred and sixty eight new fatalities

0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:36.440
<v Speaker 2>were recorded from the coronavirus. On the same day, Lebanon

0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:39.680
<v Speaker 2>and Morocco reported their first deaths from the virus, while

0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Democratic Republic of the Congo, Panama, and Mongolia confirmed their

0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:44.600
<v Speaker 2>first cases of infection.

0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:49.560
<v Speaker 3>On March eleventh, World Health Organization declared the coronavirus outbreak

0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 3>a pandemic as Turkey Ivory Coast, Honduras and Bolivia confirmed

0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:59.439
<v Speaker 3>their first cases. In Cutter, infections jumped drastically from twenty

0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.320
<v Speaker 3>four to two hundred sixty two in a single day.

0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:07.480
<v Speaker 2>On March sixteenth, New York City's bars, theaters, and cinemas

0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:10.440
<v Speaker 2>are closed down as the number of cases continued to

0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:11.399
<v Speaker 2>rise in the US.

0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.359
<v Speaker 3>On March nineteenth, Italy overtook China as the country with

0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 3>the most coronavirus related deaths, registering three thousand, four hundred

0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.240
<v Speaker 3>five deaths compared to three thousand, two hundred forty five

0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:26.840
<v Speaker 3>in China. The death toll in Spain soared by two

0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:30.000
<v Speaker 3>hundred and nine to a total of seven hundred sixty

0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:33.880
<v Speaker 3>seven fatalities from the previous day. A roughly twenty five

0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.439
<v Speaker 3>percent increase in infections was recorded in Spain, taking the

0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 3>country's total to seventeen thousand, one hundred forty seven.

0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 2>On March twentieth, which is just a couple of days ago.

0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 2>Coronavirus related deaths surged past ten thousand globally, which is

0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:55.200
<v Speaker 2>more than the number of people infected with STARS during

0:24:55.200 --> 0:24:59.600
<v Speaker 2>the entire course of the epidemic. The number of cases

0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:02.280
<v Speaker 2>in jerman Many rose by two thousand, nine hundred and

0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.719
<v Speaker 2>fifty eight overnight to a total of thirteen thousand, nine

0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.680
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty seven. Spain meanwhile had a death toll

0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:12.760
<v Speaker 2>of one thousand and two on the same day. Though

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:16.560
<v Speaker 2>March twentieth. In China, however, no new domestic cases were

0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:18.640
<v Speaker 2>reported for a second consecutive day.

0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:23.199
<v Speaker 3>That's a big deal. On March twenty first. Europe remains

0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.760
<v Speaker 3>the epicenter of the coronavirus, with Italy reporting six hundred

0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:30.919
<v Speaker 3>and twenty seven new fatalities, its biggest daily increase, bringing

0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:33.920
<v Speaker 3>the total number of deaths to four thousand, thirty two

0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:38.679
<v Speaker 3>amid forty seven thousand, twenty one cases. Spain is the

0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:41.399
<v Speaker 3>second worst hit country in Europe, with more than twenty

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:44.320
<v Speaker 3>one thousand infections and at least one thousand.

0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Deaths on March twenty second, which is the day that

0:25:47.560 --> 0:25:51.359
<v Speaker 2>we're recording this episode, the global death toll rose above

0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:55.680
<v Speaker 2>thirteen thousand, while infection counts surpassed three hundred and eleven thousand.

0:25:56.240 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 2>So right now it is eleven four one Central time,

0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:05.560
<v Speaker 2>US Central time, and there are three hundred and eighteen thousand,

0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:09.760
<v Speaker 2>two hundred and nine confirmed cases and the globe and

0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:14.800
<v Speaker 2>thirteen thousand, six hundred and sixty four deaths ninety four thousand,

0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:21.880
<v Speaker 2>seven hundred total recovered. Wow, it's a very chilling timeline.

0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:26.600
<v Speaker 3>That is a very chilling timeline that was really helpful

0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:29.720
<v Speaker 3>I think to go through though, Yeah, because even if

0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:33.280
<v Speaker 3>you didn't catch every single number and every single date,

0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 3>I think it's very clear from going through that that

0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:44.640
<v Speaker 3>this is a rising and spreading very rapidly exponentially exponentially,

0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:48.280
<v Speaker 3>and b that we're still in that exponential growth right

0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:50.359
<v Speaker 3>now today, March twenty second.

0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:55.320
<v Speaker 2>So how do we slow that down? Well, to answer

0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:58.600
<v Speaker 2>that question and to talk about the characteristics of this disease,

0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:02.399
<v Speaker 2>we brought back doctor Carlos del Rio, so let's let

0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:05.200
<v Speaker 2>him take it away right after this break.

0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:31.919
<v Speaker 4>So my name is Carlos del Rio. I'm an intense

0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:36.120
<v Speaker 4>least decician and a public health also expert, And I'm

0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:38.920
<v Speaker 4>a professor of medicine and Global health here at Emory University,

0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:42.760
<v Speaker 4>where I'm also the executive Associate Dean of EMRI at Grady.

0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:46.520
<v Speaker 2>So at this point in the epidemic, we've seen a

0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 2>lot more about how the virus has spread in different

0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:52.639
<v Speaker 2>places and in different populations. Do we have a better

0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:55.359
<v Speaker 2>sense of what the r not is for the virus?

0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.760
<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, I think we're beginning to know better

0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:02.360
<v Speaker 4>what again we should define what are not is? You though,

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:04.840
<v Speaker 4>people are probably now hearing this term and a term

0:28:04.840 --> 0:28:08.080
<v Speaker 4>that was a sort of a epidemology lingo is now

0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 4>becoming like household dinner conversation term. But you know, I've

0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:14.720
<v Speaker 4>been talking to I've been talking to ceo so companies

0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:16.679
<v Speaker 4>and others who now now call me. And I had

0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:18.359
<v Speaker 4>a COEO of a company today call me, what do

0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:19.199
<v Speaker 4>you think about the are not?

0:28:19.600 --> 0:28:21.080
<v Speaker 5>You know? Today?

0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:24.480
<v Speaker 4>So it's interesting to see that are not has become

0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:26.200
<v Speaker 4>sort of a lingo that we all talk about. But

0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:29.479
<v Speaker 4>basically what this means is is a reproductive number. Right,

0:28:29.520 --> 0:28:32.320
<v Speaker 4>It's the number of infections that of virus causes. So

0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:35.360
<v Speaker 4>one first infected person leads to other people being infected.

0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.520
<v Speaker 4>And there are diseases like measles, for example, that may

0:28:38.560 --> 0:28:40.960
<v Speaker 4>have an are not out fifteen, So one infection leads

0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 4>to fifteen, and if an are not is below one,

0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:46.440
<v Speaker 4>then the disease dies.

0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:46.880
<v Speaker 5>It disappears.

0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:49.760
<v Speaker 4>So so mers has typically had an are not below one,

0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 4>so we rarely see epidemic. We have not seen an

0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:54.920
<v Speaker 4>epidemic from merce, but this disease has a are not

0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:57.120
<v Speaker 4>about two and a half to three, which means that

0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:00.000
<v Speaker 4>somewhere between two and a half and three individuals getting

0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:02.880
<v Speaker 4>effect that after a person has been infected, and that's

0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:05.920
<v Speaker 4>what causes what we call an exponential growth in this

0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:09.280
<v Speaker 4>epidemic because and I try to explain this to people

0:29:09.360 --> 0:29:14.160
<v Speaker 4>in simple terms, if you have one infected person, that

0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:16.479
<v Speaker 4>person impacts let's say two and a half person, So

0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:18.800
<v Speaker 4>let's go with the lower limit. So that means that

0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:20.920
<v Speaker 4>after five days you're going to have two and a

0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:23.560
<v Speaker 4>half infected persons. So now you have that person plus

0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:26.400
<v Speaker 4>two and a half, but then in thirty days you're

0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:27.720
<v Speaker 4>going to have four hundred.

0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:28.440
<v Speaker 5>And six infected people.

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:30.240
<v Speaker 4>That's what we call exponential growth.

0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Can you talk a little bit about the progression of

0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.720
<v Speaker 2>the epidemic in China and in some other places where

0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:40.240
<v Speaker 2>the disease seems to be slowing down in those places,

0:29:40.440 --> 0:29:44.040
<v Speaker 2>is there a risk of a second wave of infections?

0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:46.280
<v Speaker 4>You know, I think there's always a risk. So let's

0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:48.440
<v Speaker 4>suppose we can decrease I told you, you know, one

0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:50.240
<v Speaker 4>to two and a half to four hundred at the

0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:53.360
<v Speaker 4>other thirty days. If you can decrease exposure, you can

0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:57.480
<v Speaker 4>decrease transmission by fifty percent, So you can bring the

0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:00.200
<v Speaker 4>are not from two and a half to let's say

0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:04.320
<v Speaker 4>one point two one point two five. Now at the

0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 4>end of five days, you'll have one point five infected

0:30:06.440 --> 0:30:08.120
<v Speaker 4>people instead of two point five. And at the end

0:30:08.160 --> 0:30:10.880
<v Speaker 4>of thirty days, you'll have fifteen infected people instead.

0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:13.080
<v Speaker 5>Of four hundred. Now, if you can bring that are

0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:15.800
<v Speaker 5>not below one.

0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:19.720
<v Speaker 4>Now at the end of five days, you'll have let's

0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:22.560
<v Speaker 4>say zero point seven of a person infected, so not

0:30:22.600 --> 0:30:25.080
<v Speaker 4>even one. And then at the end of thirty days

0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.000
<v Speaker 4>you'll have maybe two people infected. So you will probably

0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:30.600
<v Speaker 4>still see some cases. But as long as you can

0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:33.479
<v Speaker 4>really decrease exposure, and that happens by two mechanisms Number one,

0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:38.120
<v Speaker 4>Initially China has done it by by social distancing, right,

0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:41.720
<v Speaker 4>by quarantining, by isolating people, by really going to a

0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:44.840
<v Speaker 4>national shutdown. But something that's going to happen eventually. As

0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:49.479
<v Speaker 4>you get more people infected, you essentially have a you know,

0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:52.120
<v Speaker 4>a herd immunity, and there's not enough people to infect

0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:54.480
<v Speaker 4>out there, so a number of transmissions also goes down.

0:30:54.680 --> 0:30:57.240
<v Speaker 4>So I suspect there will be little clusters here and there,

0:30:57.320 --> 0:30:58.760
<v Speaker 4>but I don't think there's going to be a huge

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:01.520
<v Speaker 4>wave again, assuming that there's immunity to this virus.

0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:06.360
<v Speaker 3>And so kind of along those lines that you mentioned

0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:09.600
<v Speaker 3>about trying to decrease that are not overall. Can you

0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:12.280
<v Speaker 3>talk us through what the stages of an epidemic are

0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:17.120
<v Speaker 3>and what it means to try and flatten that epidemic curve.

0:31:17.400 --> 0:31:20.080
<v Speaker 3>How do we know when that actually happens.

0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:23.720
<v Speaker 4>Well, we know when that actually happens. I mean, this

0:31:23.840 --> 0:31:26.719
<v Speaker 4>is a complicated phenomenon, but you know, the epidemic starts,

0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:28.760
<v Speaker 4>it starts growing. It's really when you get that a

0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:32.400
<v Speaker 4>reflection point where the number when cases are not growing

0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:34.959
<v Speaker 4>by a factor of one, when you get two cases

0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:37.960
<v Speaker 4>growing by a factor of only one, then you start

0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:40.360
<v Speaker 4>seeing that that planning of the curve. Then you start

0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:42.920
<v Speaker 4>seeing but that by that point it's a little too late.

0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:45.520
<v Speaker 5>And I think about it like a plane taken off. Right.

0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:49.240
<v Speaker 4>Initially you were seeing you know, ten, twenty, fifteen, forty

0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:51.600
<v Speaker 4>one hundred cases. You know, the plane was just still

0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:54.280
<v Speaker 4>running down the runway very quickly. Then the those goes up,

0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:56.160
<v Speaker 4>and then you know, we start seeing in the US

0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 4>one hundred cases and now we're, you know, whatever a

0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:01.120
<v Speaker 4>number of cases. We're up to where like sixteen or

0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:04.000
<v Speaker 4>eighteen thousand, right, So now the plane's at eighteen thousand feet.

0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:06.040
<v Speaker 4>At some point in time, you're going to see it

0:32:06.040 --> 0:32:08.120
<v Speaker 4>get to thirty thousand, and it's going to start leveling off.

0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:10.760
<v Speaker 5>So, just like a plane, you get to a point.

0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:13.560
<v Speaker 4>Where you have enough people infected out there and you

0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:16.640
<v Speaker 4>have enough transmission, then the number of susceptibles is going down.

0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:19.440
<v Speaker 4>So I don't like to talk about phases of an

0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:22.640
<v Speaker 4>epidemic because there's really no pass. The natural history of

0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:26.000
<v Speaker 4>an epidemic is to continue until you infect it or

0:32:26.320 --> 0:32:29.720
<v Speaker 4>or you cause all susceptibles to be either infected or death. Right,

0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:32.440
<v Speaker 4>But what you want to be sure is that you

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:35.200
<v Speaker 4>prevent that. And what we need to do is do

0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 4>everything we can to shut down that are not to decrease,

0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:40.640
<v Speaker 4>the are not to below one. If we can bring

0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:43.880
<v Speaker 4>the are not below one, we all control transmission.

0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Right and so that needs people to stay at home

0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:51.840
<v Speaker 2>and practice social distancing and so on. But I'd like

0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:55.360
<v Speaker 2>to revisit something you mentioned in talking about how the

0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:57.480
<v Speaker 2>epidemic has progressed in China and so one of the

0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:00.960
<v Speaker 2>things that you talked about was herd immunity, which would

0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:05.800
<v Speaker 2>require that this infection with this virus leads to immunity.

0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:09.040
<v Speaker 2>Is that something that we have seen do. Are people

0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:11.280
<v Speaker 2>who are infected with this virus and then they recover,

0:33:11.400 --> 0:33:15.000
<v Speaker 2>are they immune and resistant to future infections?

0:33:15.760 --> 0:33:17.240
<v Speaker 4>There's been a lot of talk of whether you can

0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:20.640
<v Speaker 4>reinfect it or not. I think from what I can

0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:25.960
<v Speaker 4>tell that people going to develop community and are going

0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:28.800
<v Speaker 4>to not get infected. So I think immunity is going

0:33:28.840 --> 0:33:30.520
<v Speaker 4>to help us going forward.

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Gotcha, I guess, like, what is the relative effect that

0:33:35.840 --> 0:33:39.000
<v Speaker 2>social distancing has had versus herd immunity has had?

0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:43.840
<v Speaker 4>You know, it's really hard to tease that apart, but

0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:46.520
<v Speaker 4>I will tell you that if they hadn't done what

0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:51.600
<v Speaker 4>they've done, the massive shutdown that they did, I think

0:33:51.640 --> 0:33:54.920
<v Speaker 4>social distancing player probably may played a huge role there.

0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:57.680
<v Speaker 4>And the reason I say that is because if they

0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:01.000
<v Speaker 4>had not done this, I think the numbers would have

0:34:01.000 --> 0:34:04.400
<v Speaker 4>been staggerantly higher. And you know, just I look at

0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:06.840
<v Speaker 4>it today, you know, I mean I was just in

0:34:06.920 --> 0:34:10.879
<v Speaker 4>shock today when I saw that. You know, China as

0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:14.840
<v Speaker 4>of today has about eighty thousand cases with three thousand

0:34:14.880 --> 0:34:17.719
<v Speaker 4>and two hundred of deaths, really has half the number

0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:21.160
<v Speaker 4>of cases forty thousand cases, but has more death than

0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:25.120
<v Speaker 4>anywhere else. Italy has not surpassed China and death, but

0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:30.680
<v Speaker 4>I think China really emphasized the social distancing and that's

0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:32.960
<v Speaker 4>why their number of deaths compared to the number of

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:35.880
<v Speaker 4>cases is so much lower. It's four percent versus Italy,

0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:38.200
<v Speaker 4>which is eight percent, right right.

0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:40.640
<v Speaker 2>Right, And I think that's one of the things that

0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:44.560
<v Speaker 2>this outbreak has revealed, particularly here or looking at the US,

0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:47.280
<v Speaker 2>is that, you know, we have to slow the spread

0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:50.000
<v Speaker 2>of disease. People need to stay at home, they need

0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 2>to practice social distancing. But I feel like, at least anecdotally,

0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:57.680
<v Speaker 2>this message and also from what I've seen on Twitter

0:34:57.719 --> 0:35:00.319
<v Speaker 2>and on some other news reports, I feel like this

0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:05.480
<v Speaker 2>message doesn't seem to have properly sunk in, especially in

0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:09.040
<v Speaker 2>areas that may not be currently experiencing the same number

0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:13.640
<v Speaker 2>of confirmed positive cases as other regions, or in populations

0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:16.799
<v Speaker 2>that have been said to be at lower risk. So

0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:19.759
<v Speaker 2>how can we convince people just how important it is

0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:21.440
<v Speaker 2>to stay home when they can.

0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:25.840
<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, again, it's in your hands to become

0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:30.040
<v Speaker 4>infected or not right. If you become infected, you will

0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 4>then lead to other infections. So the best thing that,

0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.200
<v Speaker 4>I mean, the best vaccine we have for this is

0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:38.719
<v Speaker 4>to not get infected, because if you don't get infected,

0:35:39.000 --> 0:35:41.319
<v Speaker 4>then other people won't get infected. And if other people

0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 4>don't get infected, then you'll stop the channel transmission. And that,

0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:46.880
<v Speaker 4>to me is what we need to do right now.

0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:49.880
<v Speaker 4>So I mean the term planning the curve, or the

0:35:49.880 --> 0:35:53.040
<v Speaker 4>way I explain it is by saying, look, if I'm

0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:56.440
<v Speaker 4>at the hospital and three hundred people coming sick today,

0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:58.200
<v Speaker 4>I can't take care of them. But if three hundred

0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:00.400
<v Speaker 4>people come in sick over a month and take care

0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:04.000
<v Speaker 4>of them, it's easy. It's easier, right, So we want

0:36:04.040 --> 0:36:07.080
<v Speaker 4>to spread out the number of cases. But more importantly,

0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:09.240
<v Speaker 4>for the general individual, it's in your.

0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:11.400
<v Speaker 5>Hands to prevent transmission.

0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:14.439
<v Speaker 4>If you don't get infected, you're not going to pass

0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:17.400
<v Speaker 4>it to others, And if you don't pass it to others,

0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:20.680
<v Speaker 4>you're cutting down that transmission chain. So cutting down that

0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:24.360
<v Speaker 4>transmission chain is something that we all have the ability

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:25.400
<v Speaker 4>to do. Yeah.

0:36:25.440 --> 0:36:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, Yeah.

0:36:29.000 --> 0:36:32.840
<v Speaker 3>And so I have another question for you actually about

0:36:32.920 --> 0:36:36.120
<v Speaker 3>in looking at the differences in fatality rates between like

0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:39.600
<v Speaker 3>in China versus in Italy, how do you feel like

0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:43.440
<v Speaker 3>that compares to something like South Korea where they tested

0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:45.600
<v Speaker 3>very large numbers of people and the death rate there

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:47.680
<v Speaker 3>was as low as I think, like less than two percent.

0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:52.200
<v Speaker 3>Is that because of better identification of cases in your opinion,

0:36:52.440 --> 0:36:55.839
<v Speaker 3>or because of better social distancing and treatment methods or

0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:57.480
<v Speaker 3>what do you think some of those differences are.

0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:01.480
<v Speaker 4>I think that two things up, and I think that

0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:04.080
<v Speaker 4>you know, every countrys had a little different and there's

0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:06.719
<v Speaker 4>some issues Italy. Clearly, if you look at who got

0:37:06.760 --> 0:37:11.480
<v Speaker 4>infected in Italy, clearly Italy had a much older population,

0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:15.640
<v Speaker 4>and I think that clearly was playing a role. If

0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:18.320
<v Speaker 4>you look at the distribution of Italy versus South Korea.

0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:21.480
<v Speaker 4>In South Korea almost thirty percent of their cases were

0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:25.040
<v Speaker 4>between the ages of twenty and twenty nine and almost

0:37:25.480 --> 0:37:27.680
<v Speaker 4>twenty percent between the ages of fifty and fifty nine

0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:31.600
<v Speaker 4>in Italy. In the country, I would say almost forty

0:37:31.600 --> 0:37:34.720
<v Speaker 4>percent of cases we're between the ages of seventy and above.

0:37:35.280 --> 0:37:38.160
<v Speaker 4>So you have a very different distribution of cases in

0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:42.080
<v Speaker 4>a population. You will also have very different distribution of

0:37:42.080 --> 0:37:43.520
<v Speaker 4>comorbidities in a population.

0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:48.000
<v Speaker 5>So it's not simple. We're learning very clearly.

0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:52.080
<v Speaker 4>That mortalities are very different in different populations, right right,

0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:56.719
<v Speaker 4>and that to me is is very important because our

0:37:56.760 --> 0:37:58.200
<v Speaker 4>populations look very different.

0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:02.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, recently, earlier this week, there was that

0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:04.760
<v Speaker 2>report that came out from the Imperial College of London

0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:09.680
<v Speaker 2>that had these, you know, variety of modeling predictions based

0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:14.480
<v Speaker 2>on you know, no control strategies, mitigation strategies, suppression strategies.

0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:18.160
<v Speaker 2>But all of the numbers were fairly alarming. And so

0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:22.239
<v Speaker 2>can we make any guesses at this point to what

0:38:22.280 --> 0:38:25.640
<v Speaker 2>we might see in terms of numbers infected or just

0:38:25.719 --> 0:38:27.840
<v Speaker 2>how long the outbreak will last? Like what is the

0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:28.759
<v Speaker 2>end game on this?

0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:31.719
<v Speaker 5>Well, the endgame is to stop it.

0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:35.200
<v Speaker 4>And uh, I worry that you know here in the

0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:38.760
<v Speaker 4>United States, we don't have we have we have several problems.

0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:43.360
<v Speaker 4>Number one, we don't have wohan. We have multiple wu hunts.

0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:45.880
<v Speaker 4>We have a wool hunt in Washington State, we have

0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:48.440
<v Speaker 4>a wool hunt in New York State. We have a

0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:52.640
<v Speaker 4>Woohan now happening in the South. So we have multiple wuhants.

0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:54.640
<v Speaker 4>And I think that to me is one issue that

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:57.200
<v Speaker 4>you know, we don't have one wuhan. And the other

0:38:57.280 --> 0:39:00.400
<v Speaker 4>thing we have our public health is is the sameralized

0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:03.439
<v Speaker 4>not centralized. Right in China, the central government can say

0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:06.760
<v Speaker 4>do this and it will happen. Here in the US,

0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:09.520
<v Speaker 4>the federal government doesn't have that authority. The federal government

0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:13.719
<v Speaker 4>makes recommendations, and then after the federal government's recommendations, then

0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:15.840
<v Speaker 4>the states really public health is run up state and

0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:20.120
<v Speaker 4>local health department level. So you have states saying, oh,

0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:22.560
<v Speaker 4>you know, California saying we're going to shut down the state,

0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:26.240
<v Speaker 4>and state of Florida saying, oh, you know, we're okay,

0:39:26.440 --> 0:39:28.280
<v Speaker 4>you know, we don't want to. Yesterday, I was hearing

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:30.440
<v Speaker 4>the governor being interviewed and saying, you know, we don't

0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:33.279
<v Speaker 4>really don't want to impinge in individual liberties. And the

0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:34.880
<v Speaker 4>college students want to be parting.

0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:36.239
<v Speaker 5>Out there is their right.

0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 4>So you have a very different approach. And if you

0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:43.000
<v Speaker 4>put in the middle of this the economy, and there's

0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:46.399
<v Speaker 4>no doubt that epidemics have huge economic consequences. I mean,

0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:50.040
<v Speaker 4>the epidemics hurt business, and epidemics hurt consumption, and epidemics

0:39:50.040 --> 0:39:52.200
<v Speaker 4>court has heard a lot of things that we've seed already,

0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:54.640
<v Speaker 4>what the stock market has done, and what you know

0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:56.080
<v Speaker 4>is going to happen to small.

0:39:55.840 --> 0:39:57.080
<v Speaker 5>Business and to other businesses.

0:39:57.120 --> 0:40:00.880
<v Speaker 4>So so I can see a politician being reluctant to

0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:04.000
<v Speaker 4>take the top measures that are needed. And that's when

0:40:04.000 --> 0:40:06.799
<v Speaker 4>you say, we need an independent body that can help

0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:10.839
<v Speaker 4>and make those recommendations. But unfortunately we don't have such

0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:13.560
<v Speaker 4>independent body in this country. It's all based on you know,

0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:16.879
<v Speaker 4>it's all based on political decisions, and unfortunately it's.

0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:16.960
<v Speaker 5>Not going well.

0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:18.920
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I think you and I will agree that

0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:23.000
<v Speaker 4>the response in the US has been haphazard at best.

0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:40:25.440 --> 0:40:27.080
<v Speaker 2>In one of the things that I think a lot

0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:29.359
<v Speaker 2>of people are wondering is that at the beginning, we

0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:31.680
<v Speaker 2>were looking at this as a matter of weeks and

0:40:32.000 --> 0:40:35.320
<v Speaker 2>as the epidemic. As the pandemic has progressed, it seems

0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:38.320
<v Speaker 2>like now we're looking at this on the scale of months.

0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.560
<v Speaker 4>I think the more you delay the response, the more

0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:44.120
<v Speaker 4>the time is right. And I think that's something that

0:40:44.760 --> 0:40:47.840
<v Speaker 4>people need to understand that as you take more time,

0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:52.920
<v Speaker 4>more time takes you, you know, basically, it becomes harder

0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:54.240
<v Speaker 4>to do the right things.

0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:57.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, that's what it seems like, is that

0:40:57.080 --> 0:41:00.719
<v Speaker 2>even in places that have been relatively low impact by

0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:03.560
<v Speaker 2>the virus, it seems like not even the tip of

0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the iceberg, but the tip of the tip of the iceberg,

0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:09.080
<v Speaker 2>where we don't even know the extent of the community

0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:11.439
<v Speaker 2>transmission that's going on. And so you know, we see

0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:15.080
<v Speaker 2>these actions like shelter in place that have been happening

0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:18.280
<v Speaker 2>in California and in parts of New York and maybe

0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:21.200
<v Speaker 2>going into effect elsewhere. But is that, like, should that

0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:24.880
<v Speaker 2>be happening now in places that haven't seen the number

0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:27.319
<v Speaker 2>of cases that those states have seen.

0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:28.719
<v Speaker 5>The answer is yes.

0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:31.080
<v Speaker 4>When somebody says to me, oh, we only have twenty cases,

0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:34.439
<v Speaker 4>we got live under control, I said, if you only

0:41:34.480 --> 0:41:36.560
<v Speaker 4>knew right by the time you have twenty cases, you're

0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:40.640
<v Speaker 4>already you know, twenty cases too late. So I would

0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:45.920
<v Speaker 4>emphasize and say over and over, no, you cannot do that.

0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:48.879
<v Speaker 4>I mean, that is a mistake that everybody has made

0:41:49.320 --> 0:41:51.000
<v Speaker 4>and I don't want to get political or anything, but

0:41:51.080 --> 0:41:54.600
<v Speaker 4>you know, you know, I look at different Trump quotes

0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:59.280
<v Speaker 4>through the epidemic, right, and his first press conference about

0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.319
<v Speaker 4>this was we got in February twenty eighth, we sart

0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:04.839
<v Speaker 4>fourteen cases. We got this under control. Next week there's

0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:07.600
<v Speaker 4>gonna be no cases, and now we have a national emergency.

0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:12.040
<v Speaker 4>You know, so you get distracted and this comes back

0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:13.640
<v Speaker 4>to hunt you, right, m.

0:42:13.800 --> 0:42:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Hm, yeah. Absolutely.

0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:20.080
<v Speaker 3>There's been a lot of talk about this virus potentially

0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:25.160
<v Speaker 3>becoming another seasonal influenza type virus. What do you think

0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:27.839
<v Speaker 3>about is that something that we think is likely at

0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:30.200
<v Speaker 3>this point that this is now so well established that

0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:32.680
<v Speaker 3>this is going to be kind of a recurrent seasonal thing.

0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:36.480
<v Speaker 5>You know, I can't. I can't. I don't. It's possible.

0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:38.160
<v Speaker 4>I'm going to I think at this point in time,

0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:40.839
<v Speaker 4>it's speculative to say that I don't want to worry

0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.360
<v Speaker 4>about the future. I want to worry about the president

0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:46.399
<v Speaker 4>and the president we have the house is burning, right,

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:48.240
<v Speaker 4>We have a fire in the house. And I almost

0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:50.759
<v Speaker 4>sound here like somebody's asking me, well, you know, once

0:42:50.760 --> 0:42:52.520
<v Speaker 4>you rebuild a house, you think it'll be another fire.

0:42:52.520 --> 0:42:53.640
<v Speaker 5>Again. I said, let's put this.

0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:56.439
<v Speaker 4>Fire out again first, you know, let's worry about that later.

0:42:57.680 --> 0:43:00.360
<v Speaker 4>So let's take care of the current problem. And the

0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:02.799
<v Speaker 4>current problem is let's stop this, and then we'll figure

0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:04.640
<v Speaker 4>out about the rest. You know, there's a lot of

0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:07.480
<v Speaker 4>really good work happening in vaccines and other things. So

0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:09.480
<v Speaker 4>depends whether we have a vaccine.

0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:10.760
<v Speaker 5>That's I think there's the answer.

0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I think one of the

0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:17.560
<v Speaker 2>things in particular that I'm still trying to get a

0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:22.200
<v Speaker 2>grasp on the entire timeline or an understanding of it,

0:43:22.280 --> 0:43:25.640
<v Speaker 2>is the testing and the controversy around the testing. Can

0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:27.799
<v Speaker 2>you walk us through a little bit of that and

0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:30.160
<v Speaker 2>why there were why it was slow at the beginning,

0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:33.080
<v Speaker 2>what's going on now? Just sort of a brief on

0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:34.640
<v Speaker 2>the testing aspect.

0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:37.279
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think in a testing aspect, we have we

0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:38.120
<v Speaker 4>have three things.

0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:38.319
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:42.200
<v Speaker 4>Number one, we have pant on you virus and the

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:45.480
<v Speaker 4>virus sequences were put on the internet and the CDC

0:43:45.800 --> 0:43:46.880
<v Speaker 4>developed a test.

0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:50.000
<v Speaker 5>And then of course this is not you know, people

0:43:50.040 --> 0:43:52.200
<v Speaker 5>came on talking about a kit. This is not a kit.

0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:54.799
<v Speaker 4>You know, this is not a something that you go

0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:56.800
<v Speaker 4>to a store and you buy, right, This is something

0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:57.520
<v Speaker 4>that they developed.

0:43:57.560 --> 0:43:59.959
<v Speaker 5>This was a home group. You know, this is best

0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:03.040
<v Speaker 5>I can describe it. This was a laboratory developed test.

0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:05.080
<v Speaker 5>They did it in house, and of.

0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:08.239
<v Speaker 4>Course because of a laboratory developed tests, and they had

0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:11.960
<v Speaker 4>some challenges, and during those challenges because of some regulations

0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:15.360
<v Speaker 4>that existed, you know, unfortunately, when the president activated or

0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:19.160
<v Speaker 4>said this national emergency, that's activated a ferioce of rules

0:44:19.160 --> 0:44:21.480
<v Speaker 4>that blocked others from developing a test at this point

0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:23.879
<v Speaker 4>in time. At that point in time, so most people

0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:26.200
<v Speaker 4>were not developing I said, some people a weren't developing tests,

0:44:26.200 --> 0:44:28.200
<v Speaker 4>but others were not. So there was a lot of

0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:32.959
<v Speaker 4>I would say things that I would describe between bureaucracy,

0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:37.560
<v Speaker 4>unfortunate mistakes, and just dealing.

0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:39.359
<v Speaker 5>With something new that prevented us from.

0:44:39.320 --> 0:44:42.440
<v Speaker 4>Developing what I would have been a robust test. And

0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:45.080
<v Speaker 4>then now a lot of tests are being developed and

0:44:45.440 --> 0:44:48.760
<v Speaker 4>companies are getting involved. But also, you know, initially CDC

0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:51.560
<v Speaker 4>started getting tests out to health departments. And we know,

0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:53.920
<v Speaker 4>you and I know that health departments are there to

0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:56.080
<v Speaker 4>do public health, but not to do clinical care. But

0:44:56.080 --> 0:44:58.359
<v Speaker 4>if clinical patients were coming, then all of a sudden,

0:44:58.360 --> 0:45:02.160
<v Speaker 4>the health departments are supposed to be providing clinical testing, right,

0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:05.160
<v Speaker 4>which is not what they're designed to do. So now

0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:07.799
<v Speaker 4>I think things are a little better because now you

0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:11.680
<v Speaker 4>have companies out there working and doing and all this stuff,

0:45:11.680 --> 0:45:14.160
<v Speaker 4>and that makes a huge difference. And I think we're seeing,

0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:16.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, the FDA is approving tests less than right,

0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:18.360
<v Speaker 4>so I think they're going to be more testing, and

0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:20.600
<v Speaker 4>I think we need a lot more testing, and as

0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:21.920
<v Speaker 4>you've seen, the US.

0:45:21.760 --> 0:45:22.839
<v Speaker 5>Is way behind.

0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:26.080
<v Speaker 4>The problem is is that we would like to offer

0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:28.719
<v Speaker 4>the test to more people, but we still have our

0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:33.040
<v Speaker 4>point that we need to ration our testing. And we're

0:45:33.040 --> 0:45:35.080
<v Speaker 4>in a situation right now in this country that we've

0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:38.960
<v Speaker 4>never been before. We are rationing testing, we're rationing ppe.

0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:40.920
<v Speaker 4>So I tell people, now, you know what it feels

0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:43.720
<v Speaker 4>to be in a developing country, right because we're rationing

0:45:43.800 --> 0:45:49.319
<v Speaker 4>things and that's something that we don't necessarily feel comfortable doing.

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:51.759
<v Speaker 4>But that's the reality, right is we are in a

0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:55.520
<v Speaker 4>rationing environment and rationing is very hard.

0:45:56.360 --> 0:46:00.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely so at this point, I know, I know

0:46:00.400 --> 0:46:02.440
<v Speaker 3>some of this it kind of varies state to state

0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:05.520
<v Speaker 3>or even maybe county to county as well, but are

0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:09.080
<v Speaker 3>there general recommendations At what point a person if they

0:46:09.080 --> 0:46:12.040
<v Speaker 3>suspect that they're infected, should go and try and get tested,

0:46:12.520 --> 0:46:14.120
<v Speaker 3>even in spite of these shortages.

0:46:14.760 --> 0:46:17.080
<v Speaker 4>If you have symptoms, if you are things you have

0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:19.360
<v Speaker 4>the disease, you need to go to your doctor or

0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:21.239
<v Speaker 4>you need to call your doctor and then you'll be

0:46:21.280 --> 0:46:22.759
<v Speaker 4>told whether you need to be tested or not. But

0:46:22.800 --> 0:46:25.840
<v Speaker 4>I want people to know is that if you're asymptomatic

0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:27.680
<v Speaker 4>and just I don't want to worry it, well, to

0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:30.600
<v Speaker 4>go get tested right now because their reality is just

0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:33.239
<v Speaker 4>going to overwhelm the system and is going to take

0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:35.400
<v Speaker 4>care of tests that we need for people who actually

0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:36.240
<v Speaker 4>need it right now.

0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:40.799
<v Speaker 3>So you've touched a bit already on that we're kind

0:46:40.800 --> 0:46:43.880
<v Speaker 3>of learning as we go with this whole pandemic. But

0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:46.080
<v Speaker 3>what do you think that this outbreak so far has

0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:50.960
<v Speaker 3>taught us how to prepare for what we're experiencing right now?

0:46:51.320 --> 0:46:54.600
<v Speaker 3>How can we do better kind of moving forward?

0:46:57.080 --> 0:46:59.000
<v Speaker 4>I think right now it's really hard to know. But

0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:00.840
<v Speaker 4>when we're done with this, I think we have to

0:47:00.880 --> 0:47:03.440
<v Speaker 4>sit down and do the do the post boarded right,

0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:05.440
<v Speaker 4>We need to do the let's go over this and

0:47:05.480 --> 0:47:08.400
<v Speaker 4>find out where where were the mistakes, you know, and

0:47:08.480 --> 0:47:10.279
<v Speaker 4>what got us in the trouble we're in because we

0:47:10.280 --> 0:47:12.040
<v Speaker 4>should have never been in this kind of trouble. And

0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:15.120
<v Speaker 4>you know, I would start with one thing. I think

0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:19.600
<v Speaker 4>we have underinvested in public health for years, right, and

0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:23.160
<v Speaker 4>many administration, not just the current but I started with

0:47:23.200 --> 0:47:26.600
<v Speaker 4>Obama have really underinvested in public health. And you know,

0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:30.640
<v Speaker 4>CDC has I think over seven hundred vacancies. And now

0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:33.960
<v Speaker 4>because we are underinvested in public health for years now,

0:47:33.960 --> 0:47:37.320
<v Speaker 4>we're having spent billions and in taking care of the problem.

0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:39.520
<v Speaker 4>If we had invested in public health to begin with

0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:42.000
<v Speaker 4>and had the surveillance equipment and other things. And I'll

0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:45.200
<v Speaker 4>tell you an example of underinvestment. The state health departments

0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:48.000
<v Speaker 4>are having trouble scaling up testing the way they should.

0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:51.600
<v Speaker 4>Why because they don't have enough machines, they don't have

0:47:51.760 --> 0:47:56.000
<v Speaker 4>enough personnel because they've we're underinvesting. So I would I

0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:59.040
<v Speaker 4>would really want to see people rethink public health and

0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:01.520
<v Speaker 4>whether we we have to put our priorities there. If

0:48:01.520 --> 0:48:04.200
<v Speaker 4>we don't invest in public health, then we are going

0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:07.359
<v Speaker 4>to be having another pandemic. And you know, and I

0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:09.120
<v Speaker 4>think about you know, two thousand and nine we have

0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:11.720
<v Speaker 4>pandemic influence and now we have this ten years later,

0:48:12.160 --> 0:48:14.520
<v Speaker 4>So let's let's rethink this so we don't have the

0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:15.879
<v Speaker 4>pandemic of twenty twenty nine.

0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely. So I'll end with asking you a question

0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:24.960
<v Speaker 2>that I asked in our first episode on coronaviruses, and

0:48:25.160 --> 0:48:28.080
<v Speaker 2>I asked, what about this disease concerns you? And what

0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:31.600
<v Speaker 2>about the response or how the epidemic has been handled

0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:35.440
<v Speaker 2>so far? Is there anything about that that is cause

0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:36.399
<v Speaker 2>for optimism.

0:48:37.600 --> 0:48:38.640
<v Speaker 5>What concerns me.

0:48:38.640 --> 0:48:43.680
<v Speaker 4>The most about this disease right now is a transmission

0:48:43.719 --> 0:48:49.160
<v Speaker 4>in healthcare settings because I tell people are healthcare workers, doctors, nurses,

0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:52.239
<v Speaker 4>you know, advanced practice providers, et cetera, you know, a

0:48:52.320 --> 0:48:55.839
<v Speaker 4>rest story, therapists, you name it are in the front lines.

0:48:55.840 --> 0:49:00.799
<v Speaker 4>They're finding this virus in the battlefield, and we have

0:49:00.920 --> 0:49:03.600
<v Speaker 4>been unable to give them all the necessary personal protection

0:49:03.640 --> 0:49:06.759
<v Speaker 4>of equipment. So there's not enough personal partecular equipment, and

0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:10.760
<v Speaker 4>therefore we are they begin to battle without enough protection,

0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:13.120
<v Speaker 4>and that to me, we're doing the best we can,

0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:15.000
<v Speaker 4>but we're still not where we would like to meet.

0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:17.200
<v Speaker 4>And you know, we're having meetings to talk about, well,

0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:19.439
<v Speaker 4>you know, how do we how do we use PP

0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:22.040
<v Speaker 4>more appropriately? I mean, if we had enough VP, I

0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:25.120
<v Speaker 4>would feel so much comfortable, so so not having enough

0:49:25.360 --> 0:49:28.920
<v Speaker 4>material to provide our our doctors, our nurses, our healthcare

0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:31.680
<v Speaker 4>workers the necessary protections. That that worries me a lot,

0:49:31.920 --> 0:49:34.279
<v Speaker 4>because I think we're going to see a lot of

0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:37.200
<v Speaker 4>infections among healthcare workers in this country and that is

0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:40.719
<v Speaker 4>bad and that is something that this should be unacceptable

0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:43.880
<v Speaker 4>and we need to make a big cry about that.

0:49:44.719 --> 0:49:47.960
<v Speaker 4>But number two is I also worry that people are

0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:51.160
<v Speaker 4>not taking it seriously and that people are still you know, partying,

0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:54.160
<v Speaker 4>And I saw the videos of the college kids in

0:49:54.200 --> 0:49:56.359
<v Speaker 4>the beach and Florida saying, Oh, this is no big deal.

0:49:57.120 --> 0:50:02.200
<v Speaker 4>And what gives me hope is is science. And I think,

0:50:02.400 --> 0:50:08.680
<v Speaker 4>you know what I've seen come together, how science, how industry,

0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:11.680
<v Speaker 4>how the community is coming together, gives me hope because

0:50:12.040 --> 0:50:14.040
<v Speaker 4>where I come from, where my research has been, with

0:50:14.200 --> 0:50:15.960
<v Speaker 4>my work has been, which is an HIV.

0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:18.520
<v Speaker 5>That's what's the solution.

0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:22.120
<v Speaker 4>We are where we are in HIV because the community,

0:50:23.160 --> 0:50:27.759
<v Speaker 4>the scientists, industry, and governments came together and got us

0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:30.160
<v Speaker 4>where we are. To me, it's unimaginable to see where

0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:32.239
<v Speaker 4>we are. I could have never predicted that it will

0:50:32.280 --> 0:50:35.520
<v Speaker 4>be where we are in HIV and it's because because

0:50:35.560 --> 0:50:39.000
<v Speaker 4>of that that coalition that made us better and made

0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:43.080
<v Speaker 4>us stronger. So I have hope that between science community

0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:45.320
<v Speaker 4>and everybody coming together will be in a better place.

0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:14.280
<v Speaker 3>Doctor del Rio, he said we could call him Carlos,

0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:15.400
<v Speaker 3>but it just feels wrong.

0:51:17.200 --> 0:51:22.359
<v Speaker 2>Carlos, thank you so much. We really appreciate I mean,

0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:24.360
<v Speaker 2>all of the people that we have talked to. I

0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:26.160
<v Speaker 2>know we keep saying this, but all of the people

0:51:26.200 --> 0:51:30.040
<v Speaker 2>that we've talked to took time, precious time out of

0:51:30.080 --> 0:51:33.680
<v Speaker 2>their incredibly busy schedules to talk with us and to

0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:38.560
<v Speaker 2>help spread some factual information about this disease. And for that,

0:51:38.840 --> 0:51:40.680
<v Speaker 2>we thank you so so much.

0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:44.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, really, thank you so much. So what have we learned?

0:51:45.040 --> 0:51:48.560
<v Speaker 2>What have we learned? I think one of the things

0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Number one that we've learned is that there does appear

0:51:52.120 --> 0:51:56.400
<v Speaker 2>to be immunity to this virus, and that this immunity

0:51:56.560 --> 0:52:00.560
<v Speaker 2>could substantially contribute to what slows this pandemic. So, even

0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:05.480
<v Speaker 2>though we have talked about the horrible concept of using

0:52:05.960 --> 0:52:09.719
<v Speaker 2>herd immunity as a strategy, it could be what happens

0:52:09.840 --> 0:52:13.080
<v Speaker 2>naturally as people do get infected, especially since we're seeing

0:52:13.080 --> 0:52:16.719
<v Speaker 2>this exponential growth. Now that might be what helped to

0:52:16.719 --> 0:52:21.279
<v Speaker 2>contribute to the decline of cases in China, But more

0:52:21.320 --> 0:52:25.320
<v Speaker 2>importantly is the social distancing measures, and we'll talk about

0:52:25.320 --> 0:52:25.839
<v Speaker 2>that as well.

0:52:26.120 --> 0:52:31.799
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely. Number two, an important thing that we learned from

0:52:31.800 --> 0:52:35.680
<v Speaker 3>this episode is that we have to consider characteristics of

0:52:35.719 --> 0:52:38.880
<v Speaker 3>this disease and this epidemic in the context of the

0:52:38.880 --> 0:52:43.080
<v Speaker 3>places that are being affected. So we're seeing different infection

0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:47.799
<v Speaker 3>rates and different case fatality rates in different regions, in

0:52:47.880 --> 0:52:51.080
<v Speaker 3>part because the populations that are affected in those regions

0:52:51.120 --> 0:52:54.719
<v Speaker 3>are different, and we don't at this point necessarily know

0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:58.480
<v Speaker 3>exactly what all those differences are that are driving the

0:52:58.520 --> 0:53:02.400
<v Speaker 3>differences in case fasevitality and in infection rates. That's something

0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:05.200
<v Speaker 3>that we might only be able to recognize in retrospect

0:53:05.280 --> 0:53:08.280
<v Speaker 3>once we make it through the other side of this outbreak.

0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:10.839
<v Speaker 3>And I think that's really important because you know, there's

0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:12.920
<v Speaker 3>been a lot of talk about, well, the case metality

0:53:13.000 --> 0:53:16.240
<v Speaker 3>rate is this in Italy versus this in South Korea,

0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:20.239
<v Speaker 3>And we don't fully understand exactly what those differences mean

0:53:20.400 --> 0:53:21.600
<v Speaker 3>in this context.

0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:24.359
<v Speaker 2>Yet, right and how much they're going to change as

0:53:24.400 --> 0:53:27.200
<v Speaker 2>we test more people, as the number of cases grow,

0:53:27.320 --> 0:53:30.600
<v Speaker 2>as our knowledge about this disease grows exactly.

0:53:31.239 --> 0:53:32.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:53:32.600 --> 0:53:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Number three, we have underinvested in global health security and

0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:44.680
<v Speaker 2>in international public health and pandemic preparedness on national scales,

0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:49.760
<v Speaker 2>international scales, regional scales, local scales, state scales, whatever, every

0:53:49.880 --> 0:53:55.799
<v Speaker 2>single scale, on every single conceivable scale, for years and

0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:59.960
<v Speaker 2>years and years. This lack of investment in global health

0:54:00.040 --> 0:54:03.400
<v Speaker 2>security and pandemic preparedness, it is coming back now to

0:54:03.560 --> 0:54:06.400
<v Speaker 2>haunt us. And so the amount of money that you know,

0:54:06.480 --> 0:54:08.279
<v Speaker 2>speaking for the US, the amount of money that we

0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:11.719
<v Speaker 2>have saved by cutting programs such as the CDC and

0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:19.120
<v Speaker 2>pandemic preparedness initiatives, that number is infinitesimly small compared to

0:54:19.320 --> 0:54:23.200
<v Speaker 2>the bill that this is going to lead to. And

0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:28.800
<v Speaker 2>that's just the economic bill. The psychological impacts, the social impacts.

0:54:29.000 --> 0:54:33.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is going to have repercussions for every

0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:37.000
<v Speaker 2>aspect of our lives, and I think it is going

0:54:37.040 --> 0:54:40.080
<v Speaker 2>to fundamentally change the way that we live, the way

0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:42.560
<v Speaker 2>that we work, the way that we communicate, and the

0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:45.120
<v Speaker 2>way that we think about our own health and safety.

0:54:47.040 --> 0:54:52.760
<v Speaker 3>Say it, Aaron. Number four, We learned from this interview,

0:54:53.040 --> 0:54:56.760
<v Speaker 3>but there were a lot of different factors that contributed

0:54:56.800 --> 0:54:59.680
<v Speaker 3>to the slow rollout of tests that we've seen in

0:54:59.719 --> 0:55:03.960
<v Speaker 3>the U. We are doing better now, for sure. There's

0:55:04.000 --> 0:55:08.480
<v Speaker 3>a lot of different private labs and private hospitals and

0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:11.759
<v Speaker 3>public hospitals that are developing their own tests, and people

0:55:11.800 --> 0:55:14.600
<v Speaker 3>are working really hard to try and roll out more

0:55:14.640 --> 0:55:18.879
<v Speaker 3>and more tests. But that delay has really prevented us

0:55:18.880 --> 0:55:21.880
<v Speaker 3>from getting the precious knowledge that could have helped to

0:55:21.960 --> 0:55:26.880
<v Speaker 3>slow this disease. And I think you can't really underestimate

0:55:27.040 --> 0:55:30.080
<v Speaker 3>just how important that was. Like, this is a thing

0:55:30.120 --> 0:55:34.120
<v Speaker 3>we've kind of botched, and like doctor Kraft mentioned in

0:55:34.160 --> 0:55:35.960
<v Speaker 3>one of our episodes, it's not like we could have

0:55:36.040 --> 0:55:40.600
<v Speaker 3>made this overnight, right, but it was kind of months

0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:44.319
<v Speaker 3>of not not ramping up production on something like this

0:55:44.440 --> 0:55:46.600
<v Speaker 3>to be able to start rolling out these tests well.

0:55:46.600 --> 0:55:49.440
<v Speaker 3>And now we're running into further issues of running out

0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:53.240
<v Speaker 3>of protective equipment, of running out of swabs to actually

0:55:53.320 --> 0:55:55.880
<v Speaker 3>run these tests, Like we have a lot of issues

0:55:55.920 --> 0:56:01.640
<v Speaker 3>in the actual supply chain of tests for this virus.

0:56:01.680 --> 0:56:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, you know, And I think that if we want

0:56:04.680 --> 0:56:10.319
<v Speaker 2>a silver lining this, then this is hopefully something that

0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:14.279
<v Speaker 2>we can take and learn from. We've talked about this

0:56:14.320 --> 0:56:18.600
<v Speaker 2>before in in terms of epidemiologists either always being viewed

0:56:18.640 --> 0:56:24.359
<v Speaker 2>as over prepared or underprepared, or overreactive or underreactive, and

0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:29.759
<v Speaker 2>it's a huge challenge. It is zero point five. I

0:56:29.760 --> 0:56:31.680
<v Speaker 2>think this is a really important one, and this is

0:56:31.719 --> 0:56:36.120
<v Speaker 2>something that we have hammered on in other episodes in

0:56:36.120 --> 0:56:39.840
<v Speaker 2>this series so far. We can bring down the r

0:56:40.000 --> 0:56:44.960
<v Speaker 2>not of this virus through control measures and personal decisions,

0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:49.440
<v Speaker 2>our individual actions. Each one of us has the power

0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:55.760
<v Speaker 2>to help slow the spread of this disease. We really

0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:59.759
<v Speaker 2>need to take this seriously. So there was a really.

0:56:59.520 --> 0:57:04.360
<v Speaker 3>Great modeling study that looked at the data from Wuhan

0:57:04.840 --> 0:57:10.040
<v Speaker 3>like retrospectively after the fact, and they suggested from this

0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:14.640
<v Speaker 3>that the restrictions that were implemented and people actually by

0:57:14.680 --> 0:57:19.400
<v Speaker 3>people actually changing their behaviors, they were able to decrease

0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:22.960
<v Speaker 3>the art not in that infection from around two point

0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:26.280
<v Speaker 3>four to one point four. So they cut it by

0:57:26.320 --> 0:57:29.800
<v Speaker 3>one hundred percent, which is massive, massively important.

0:57:30.320 --> 0:57:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it can be done. It can be done. It

0:57:32.560 --> 0:57:35.400
<v Speaker 2>has been shown to be done. So let's do it.

0:57:36.080 --> 0:57:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Let's do it.

0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:37.560
<v Speaker 3>Let's do it.

0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:41.919
<v Speaker 2>So okay sources.

0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:45.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So that paper that I just mentioned, that was

0:57:45.480 --> 0:57:48.880
<v Speaker 3>a paper by Lee at All in Science published in

0:57:48.960 --> 0:57:54.360
<v Speaker 3>Science on March sixteenth, entitled Substantial Undocumented Infection facilitates the

0:57:54.440 --> 0:57:56.960
<v Speaker 3>rapid dissemination of novel coronavirus.

0:57:57.520 --> 0:58:00.880
<v Speaker 2>And then there's those papers that we mention earlier by

0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:05.960
<v Speaker 2>plow Right at All and Coton's at All. We'll post

0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:08.720
<v Speaker 2>those papers on our website.

0:58:08.400 --> 0:58:12.240
<v Speaker 3>And for more details on the timeline as well as

0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:14.600
<v Speaker 3>for updates on it that we'll post the link to

0:58:14.640 --> 0:58:16.640
<v Speaker 3>that Al Jazeera article as well.

0:58:16.920 --> 0:58:21.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's awesome. Thank you again so much to Carlos.

0:58:22.640 --> 0:58:24.320
<v Speaker 2>We really appreciate it. We do.

0:58:24.440 --> 0:58:26.720
<v Speaker 3>And thank you to Bloodmobile for providing the music for

0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:29.080
<v Speaker 3>this episode in all of our episodes.

0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:32.760
<v Speaker 2>And thank you to you listeners for sticking through one

0:58:32.760 --> 0:58:36.080
<v Speaker 2>more episode of this. There's more coming your way until

0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:36.600
<v Speaker 2>next time.

0:58:36.920 --> 0:59:05.960
<v Speaker 3>Wash your hands, you filthy animals, um