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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: So you know, there's always something interesting at Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast AM dot com. One of those things I want

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Speaker 1: to point out too, along with that dogman video, is

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Speaker 1: this really interesting article about the increase of nightmares around

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Speaker 1: this time of year, and maybe that plays into our

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Speaker 1: greater conversation about witches. That a lot of ways, the

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Speaker 1: stories of witches and the pursuit of witches was really

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Speaker 1: born out of a out of puritanical nightmares, kind of

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Speaker 1: a carryover from the from the witch trials of Europe

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Speaker 1: into Salem, Massachusetts. Paul Deboli is an assistant professor of

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Speaker 1: political science and has a BA in history from Suffolk

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Speaker 1: University at j D from the New England School of Law.

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Speaker 1: He taught at Lacelle University and many other places. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining us here on Coast to Coast again.

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Speaker 1: I think twice in one year, Paul, twice in one

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Speaker 1: year for you and I I more recently did. Back

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Speaker 1: at the end of August, I was lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: be able to sit in on Sir Hans, Sir Hans parole.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's right, Oh, that's George had me on. We

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Speaker 1: had a really fun discussion that night about you know,

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Speaker 1: the tragic events in June of nineteen sixty eight. But

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Speaker 1: this is the second time for you and I. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about Dabraham Lincoln last spring. I think right,

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Speaker 1: nobody times of that topic believing, yeah, it's fascinating and

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Speaker 1: yet the same kind of intricacies. And I think this

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Speaker 1: conversation about having you back on started back then because

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Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, well, we'll have you back in

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Speaker 1: the fall. So I'm so glad that you made it

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Speaker 1: onto the schedule and and the just in time too.

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Speaker 1: So I said something which is kind of a generalization,

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Speaker 1: there are two kinds of witches, dead ones and live ones.

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Speaker 1: You know, in Salem, Massachusetts, that's not entirely true. Some

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Speaker 1: self professed witches survived the hysteria around witches, and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk more about that, but let's set the table for

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Speaker 1: that for that conversation, because I think I think it's

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Speaker 1: important to point out that long before Salem, Massachusetts, there

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Speaker 1: had been a religious fervor that had started earlier than

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Speaker 1: sixteen ninety two, going back into Europe for several decades

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Speaker 1: where people were convinced that they could just tell a

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Speaker 1: witch just by looking at somebody, that some people felt

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Speaker 1: like they had the divine ability to ascertain who was

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Speaker 1: a witch. And that's in some respects about as credible

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Speaker 1: as that type of testimony. God. But what do you

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Speaker 1: see as being the building blocks for what ended up

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Speaker 1: being the horrible events between sixteen ninety two and sixteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three, You know, I mean the history of of

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Speaker 1: of fear of witches or people that practice quote unquote

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Speaker 1: the black arts, you know, probably has its its roots

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Speaker 1: in the ancient world. And then work sure as we saw,

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Speaker 1: you know, the fervor of religion, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: running through europe um a lot of times it appears

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Speaker 1: as though um accusations of witchcraft were a way to

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to put this mildly, m getting rid of

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Speaker 1: or no, I think you're isolate, you know, marginalize or

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Speaker 1: murder women that had very you know, strong views, whether

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Speaker 1: it's about religion, whether it's about politics, whether it's about

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, burgeoning sciences, et cetera. And

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Speaker 1: I think there was just too there was there was

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Speaker 1: just too much of a of a habit of when

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Speaker 1: they encountered something they couldn't explain you know, it was

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Speaker 1: which is it was the gods striking us angrily. So

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Speaker 1: it seems like a natural, you know, kind of progression.

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Speaker 1: But when we talk about what was happening here, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've read a couple of studies, for example,

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Speaker 1: that theorized that that uh, certain spores and molds working

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Speaker 1: its way into the grain supply would also hallucinogenic effects.

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Speaker 1: So if we're kind of going from this general position

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Speaker 1: of of this this superstitious belief, um, you know, in witchcraft,

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Speaker 1: and you know, kind of try to look at it

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Speaker 1: with a scientific eye, so to speak, in so much

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Speaker 1: as you can. I mean, there could be reasons, for

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Speaker 1: valid medical reasons for people acting out. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: it could be the grain equivalent of magic mushrooms. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But when we say acting out, this is interesting because

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Speaker 1: it could have been that the people who lived out

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Speaker 1: in the woods or lived outside of the main streets

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Speaker 1: of the town of Salem were the ones who were

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Speaker 1: least affected by that communal grain or that sort of

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Speaker 1: mold that might have created on a hallucinogenic effect, Which

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Speaker 1: is interesting because, as you point out that the attack

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Speaker 1: was on the marginalized and this might be just people

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Speaker 1: who held non majoritarian beliefs, which is the whole reason

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Speaker 1: why the United States was originally formed. It was formed

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Speaker 1: by dissidents who were leaving one religious group or another

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Speaker 1: or wanting to establish religious freedom and then in themselves

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Speaker 1: because in a way, because the margin between life and

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Speaker 1: death was so thin when you're living out and trying

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Speaker 1: to carve a life in the middle of the wilderness,

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Speaker 1: or you know, whether you don't really have any safety

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Speaker 1: net underneath you. That threat that loomed from the outsider,

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Speaker 1: that that seems to me to be the cause of

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Speaker 1: many of the fears around witches and might have had

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Speaker 1: something to do too with a perception about Native Americans.

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Speaker 1: How comfortable are you talking about both the original accuser

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Speaker 1: in the Salem witch Trials being a Native American and

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Speaker 1: a fear that that this foothold they had on the

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Speaker 1: New World was was a tenuous grip on an otherwise

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Speaker 1: bedeviled land. Do you know? We all like to form

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Speaker 1: theories and right, and your theory is based on you know,

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Speaker 1: current sociological thought. So I'm not I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: pooh poo that. Um. I think the Salem which trials

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Speaker 1: um uh had its roots. It's kind of funny too,

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Speaker 1: because when we talk about, you know, the Pilgrim's coming here,

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Speaker 1: the period at the center of the question of religious freedom,

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Speaker 1: as soon as they got here, they became a religious suppressors, right,

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Speaker 1: so the very thing they sought to create, um, which

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Speaker 1: which is so human nature. Isn't it that we become

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Speaker 1: what we mock, We become what we stand against too often.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because you know, like I said,

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Speaker 1: I live here in Massachusetts, of in Essex County. I'm

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Speaker 1: literally ten miles from the site of the Salem which

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Speaker 1: trials which actually occurred in Danverus not not not Salem

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Speaker 1: properly um. And so that that kind of overwhelms you know,

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Speaker 1: our our society at least in October UM. But we

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Speaker 1: all seek to try to explain the unexplainable. And and

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Speaker 1: when you when you start to gelvan to some of

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Speaker 1: the records, when you look at the transcript the trial

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Speaker 1: transcripts that are available, when you look at some of

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Speaker 1: literature of the time. I mean, and again, I teach

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Speaker 1: political science. So one of the things that I that

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Speaker 1: that that I enjoy doing is looking at a political

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Speaker 1: system applying stress to the system and then see how

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Speaker 1: the system reacts. Right, Right, That's really an interesting way

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Speaker 1: of looking at it. It is, and you can do that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and at the point of making a

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Speaker 1: shameless plug my book Conspiracy, what I want is do

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Speaker 1: out next to August and we pretty much do that,

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Speaker 1: um in terms of whether we're talking about the Salem

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Speaker 1: Which trials, whether we're talking about the Link and assassination,

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Speaker 1: whether we're talking about JFK, RFK, even Watergate. You you

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Speaker 1: look at stresses applied to the system and see how

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Speaker 1: they respond. And you know, I'm sitting here in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one looking back on what and trying to make

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Speaker 1: some sense out of what these people were thinking in

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Speaker 1: sixteen ninety two, in sixteen ninety three, and I'm just

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Speaker 1: amazed at the blind you know, faith and the blind

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Speaker 1: justification for this, you know, basically this travesty where you know,

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Speaker 1: a number of people were arrested h towards two hundred

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Speaker 1: two hundred right over the course over the course of

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Speaker 1: that period of time. Yeah, it might even be more

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Speaker 1: than that. The records were so interesting. Yeah, and again

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Speaker 1: you look back on your try and make some sense

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Speaker 1: of it. And yes, there was this this this ability

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Speaker 1: when you you know, this this propensity when you're accused

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Speaker 1: of a crime to try to implicate others in it

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Speaker 1: as a way to deflect, right, you know, attention from yourself. Um.

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Speaker 1: But we're kind of blessed here too because in Massachusetts

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Speaker 1: we have we have a county based system for tracking

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Speaker 1: land transactions. And when you start looking at some of

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Speaker 1: the land transactions that were occurring at the time of

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Speaker 1: the you know, in the summer of sixteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: there was this further building and people were concerned that

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Speaker 1: they may be accused and actually transferred property out of

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Speaker 1: their name or disputing the property just prior to the

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Speaker 1: first trials beginning because they were what considered too prosperous. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a propensity to kind of I'll be blunt,

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Speaker 1: screw your neighbor. Right, it's kind of a tall poppy thing.

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Speaker 1: It cut down to anybody who's shining out past the group. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and and again prosperity, you know, it was looked

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Speaker 1: upon as you know, as God's will. But people were

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Speaker 1: there's there's natural jealousy and envy are covening involved right

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Speaker 1: in that, And you know sometimes you know, and some

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Speaker 1: of the evidence indicates that they were boundary disputes between neighbors,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in in living in close proximity or

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Speaker 1: at least relatively close proximity, may try to create an

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Speaker 1: advantage for themselves. And this this, you know, this crime,

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Speaker 1: this activity out there. They'll say, well, you know, the

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Speaker 1: reason why he's doing it is because there their witches.

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Speaker 1: And it's kind of funny because you know, I actually

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Speaker 1: have right in front of me right now, Chapter forty

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Speaker 1: of the Colonial Legislature, and it's entitled an Act against Conjugation,

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Speaker 1: Witchcraft and dealing with Evil and Wicked Spirits. So as

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Speaker 1: a government, as a political science professor, I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: this and you know, they're actually institutionalizing within the halls

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Speaker 1: of government, you know, this this problem or issue, and

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Speaker 1: I can't help but chuckle over, you know, the naive

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Speaker 1: k of of people and being so willing to accept

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Speaker 1: you know, other worldly you know reasoning for this that

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Speaker 1: the that the Colonial Legislature. And again we're talking sixteen

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Speaker 1: ninety two. We're talking long before the Declaration. We're talking

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Speaker 1: long before the Article's Confederation. We're talking long before um

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Speaker 1: state constitutions. The Massachuset Constitution wasn't until seventeen eighty, and

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Speaker 1: they were out of these protections that were built in. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the accusations became even more powerful because the

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Speaker 1: legal system at that time was based on guilt until

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Speaker 1: proven innocent rather than innocent until proven guilty, which we

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Speaker 1: know today. But you know, but Paula, this is where,

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Speaker 1: like at the beginning, what I mentioned about the Native

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Speaker 1: American piece, I mean, I think this is sort of

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Speaker 1: a convergence of all of these factors. But the reason

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Speaker 1: why I brought that up is, just as you are

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Speaker 1: saying there, there was a term that sociologists would use

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Speaker 1: today is monomania, that there was such a fervent adhesion

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Speaker 1: to one idea that it would often turn against people

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Speaker 1: who would otherwise be allies. That if you can't reach

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Speaker 1: the people who are the perceived enemies, if they're outside

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Speaker 1: of your power base, you end up going after the

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Speaker 1: people who are closest to you, and monomania, we can see,

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Speaker 1: get lived out. There was an interesting article this week

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Speaker 1: about even at university campuses, where you know, suddenly where

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Speaker 1: had what had once been like an open place where

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Speaker 1: lots of ideas are discussed Now, some ideas are considered

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Speaker 1: too dangerous to be discussed, and this is, in some

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Speaker 1: people's estimation, an example of monomania. And I think that

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Speaker 1: there was there was this was in play too, And

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Speaker 1: that's why I brought up the Native American piece, because,

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Speaker 1: as you say, the community was growing, but where was

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Speaker 1: it growing. It was growing into the woods, it was

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Speaker 1: growing into the wilderness. And who lived into the wilderness.

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Speaker 1: But the other and the other that perceived other is

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Speaker 1: what I think is at least a piece in this.

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Speaker 1: It's a flavor to a concern that only we amongst ourselves,

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Speaker 1: us Christians, who were the right clothes and put buckles

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Speaker 1: on our shoes, and we, you know, all the people

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Speaker 1: that live in this tight group, we're the only ones

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Speaker 1: we can trust. Everybody else be devils. I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of that at play here. I think you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right in your analysis. Um, and we all tend

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Speaker 1: to you know, we all tend to fear what we

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Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, go back to the original War

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Speaker 1: of the World's broadcast, whether about you know, aliens, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, you know, with regard to identified

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Speaker 1: aerial phenomena, I'm a hindred percent behind that. I mean, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm with you too. I mean, I mean, only human

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Speaker 1: arrogance would lead us to believe that we're the only

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Speaker 1: ones out there so far. Yeah, I agree completely. So

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Speaker 1: and again we're seeing traces of microbes, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, nasis finding in different locations, meteorites, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: You know, again, I'm not so willing to write that off. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I can look at witchcraft and and and

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Speaker 1: kind of do a you know, kind of a chuckle

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Speaker 1: to myself. And maybe that's just me being you know,

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Speaker 1: narrow minded. Um, but I but I can't. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if people really believe this or if they were just

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Speaker 1: cowtowing to the religious orthodoxy of the time. Listen to

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Speaker 1: more Coast to Coast a m every weeknight at one

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Speaker 1: a m. Eastern, and go to Coast to Coast am

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Speaker 1: dot com for more