Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
Speaker 1: those of the authors and participants and do not necessarily
Speaker 1: represent those of iHeart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees.
Speaker 1: This series contains discussions of violence and sexual violence. Listener
Speaker 1: discretion is advised previously an algorithm. After Vaughan's release from
Speaker 1: prison in August, he returned to Gary and his confirmed
Speaker 1: murders appeared to begin early in fourteen with the disappearance
Speaker 1: of Tierra Baty as way nor call it never happened,
Speaker 1: and although her fiance, Marvin Clinton, uncovered that a man
Speaker 1: was using her cell phone and provided cell records to police,
Speaker 1: it appears police didn't investigate this lead. They looked at
Speaker 1: about they didn't have it, so we don't know what
Speaker 1: the other detective dea where did it? Blew it away?
Speaker 1: On what abblicate may be. And when Vaughan kidnapped and
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted a sex worker, her rape kit went untested
Speaker 1: and that left bond free to continue to kill. No
Speaker 1: sexual assaults in particular, the departments are under resource, they're
Speaker 1: not followed up on, and this is what happens when
Speaker 1: you don't follow up on them. Sexual offenders continue to offend,
Speaker 1: but could Vaughan have been stopped even earlier? The police
Speaker 1: had just heated hard Groups warnings from my Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Tenderfoot TV. This is Algorithm. I'm benk kee Brick.
Speaker 1: After I'd gone through Vond's interrogations, I reached back out
Speaker 1: to Hargrove. I'm not sure if he remembered who I was,
Speaker 1: so I'm sorry. I've forgotten which podcast is this. I
Speaker 1: tried not to take it personally. It had been almost
Speaker 1: a year since I first contacted him, and while I've
Speaker 1: been going back and listening to my interviews with him
Speaker 1: over and over as they worked on the early episodes.
Speaker 1: To him, I was just some random guy who reached
Speaker 1: out to him with the vague idea that I was
Speaker 1: going to make a pie cast. But when I let
Speaker 1: him know I'd managed to get my hands on Von's confessions,
Speaker 1: he lit up. You did. Yeah, that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that I was really excited about and wanted to
Speaker 1: share with you. You you're making news. Yeah, So it
Speaker 1: got a lot of audio. It's almost all of his confessions.
Speaker 1: I told hard Growth that had gone through Von's confessions
Speaker 1: looking for some sort of smoking gun that would clearly
Speaker 1: connect him to one of the crimes hard Grove had identified,
Speaker 1: but it was Hard bonded confession erically to committing many murders.
Speaker 1: How many people are you responsible for killing? Is a
Speaker 1: lifetime are couldn't need the two. But Von hadn't provided
Speaker 1: many details about these crimes, and when it came to
Speaker 1: cold cases in Indiana, he'd only provided specifics about two incidents,
Speaker 1: the two murders he said he was responsible for in
Speaker 1: Hammond when Detective Ford had pressed him. And these two
Speaker 1: crimes that Von described didn't match the ones from Hargrove's algorithm,
Speaker 1: but were cheatings and not strangulations. But I did now
Speaker 1: have a much better sense of Vaughan and his m O,
Speaker 1: so I decided to go back through the crimes hard
Speaker 1: Grove had identified and researched them to see if any
Speaker 1: stood out. I was looking for crimes from when Von
Speaker 1: was living in Gary, especially where the victim might have
Speaker 1: had a history of sex work or drug abuse, or
Speaker 1: crimes where it appeared the victim had been discovered in
Speaker 1: an abandoned building long after they've been killed. Hard Grove's
Speaker 1: algorithm had identified fifteen women who had been strangled between
Speaker 1: and two thousand seven, and he had identified what he
Speaker 1: saw as two rough patterns. In recent years, several women
Speaker 1: have been strangled in their homes. In at least two cases,
Speaker 1: of fire was set after the women were killed. Also,
Speaker 1: starting in the nineteen nineties, we've seen several women who
Speaker 1: were found strangled in or near abandoned buildings. I decided
Speaker 1: to start with one of the more recent cases on
Speaker 1: hard Groves list. Her Grove's letter stated that an unidentified
Speaker 1: female victim had been found in an abandoned garage on
Speaker 1: February two thousand seven, and her body had been set
Speaker 1: on fire. This would have been a couple of years
Speaker 1: after Vaughan's incident with Sharita and the gasoline, so I
Speaker 1: wondered if Vaughn might have a fixation with fire. Plus,
Speaker 1: he had mentioned in the interrogations that the incident with
Speaker 1: Sharita had made him go back out of control, it
Speaker 1: had awakened his murder rages, so I thought that might
Speaker 1: be an indication that he'd started killing soon after that.
Speaker 1: It turned out that there had been a breakthroughing the
Speaker 1: case after Hargrove had sent the letter to Gary police.
Speaker 1: She has been dead for seven years. Her name remains
Speaker 1: a mystery, but the Lake County, Indiana Corners Office it's
Speaker 1: hopeful that new forensic artwork will give a real name
Speaker 1: to Jane Gary Dough. The National Center for Missing and
Speaker 1: Exploited Children put out a new facial reconstruction of the victim.
Speaker 1: They were hoping that a member of the public could
Speaker 1: identify her. The new picture was published in the local paper,
Speaker 1: which also mentioned that she was thought to be somewhere
Speaker 1: between sixteen and twenty, and that she had scars in
Speaker 1: various stages of healing on her face and torso. She
Speaker 1: was thought to have been killed about a day before
Speaker 1: the body was discovered. Over a year past with no
Speaker 1: leads until August, when a woman named Kira Hill recognized
Speaker 1: the girl in the sketch as her cousin and reported
Speaker 1: it to the Gary police. She said the girl was
Speaker 1: fifteen year old Erika Hill from Fitchburg, Wisconsin, and d
Speaker 1: n A confirmed Kars identification. That family member who identified
Speaker 1: Erica Hill had been holding onto a terrible secret, and
Speaker 1: it turned out Kira didn't just know the victim, she
Speaker 1: knew the murderer as well. Investigators say the relative, who
Speaker 1: does not face charges, had been fearful all of these
Speaker 1: years of retaliation if she told, but decided she wanted
Speaker 1: to end the pattern of abuse. Cira's mother, Taylor, adopt
Speaker 1: did Erica in two thousand one, after Erica's grandmother, who
Speaker 1: had been caring for Erica, passed away. Talan was a
Speaker 1: special education teacher who had three kids of her own.
Speaker 1: She had a good reputation in her neighborhood, but Kiara
Speaker 1: said that behind closed doors, Talan was cruel. Kira said
Speaker 1: her mother beat all of her children, but Erica was
Speaker 1: abused more than the rest, and as the abuse escalated,
Speaker 1: Talan withdrew her children from school, worried that teachers would
Speaker 1: notice the signs of abuse. One night in February two
Speaker 1: thousand seven, Tlan called kar at work and told her
Speaker 1: to come home because of a family emergency. When Kiara
Speaker 1: came home, her mother told her to go into the bathroom,
Speaker 1: but wouldn't tell her why. Kiarra saw Erica lying on
Speaker 1: the floor. Her skin looked gray. Talan had shoved a
Speaker 1: rag deep into Erica's mouth, and she'd ended up making
Speaker 1: Erica choked to death. According to Kiara, her mother told
Speaker 1: the kid to put Erica into a black garbage bag
Speaker 1: and take her to the garage. Kia said that she
Speaker 1: and the other siblings were terrified of their mother, so
Speaker 1: they complied out of fear. They left Erica's body in
Speaker 1: the garage until it started to smell A few days later.
Speaker 1: Then Taylan had her children load Erica's body into their
Speaker 1: van and they drove from Wisconsin down to Chicago. Taylan
Speaker 1: left Erica's body under a highway overpass. She set fire
Speaker 1: to the body and pulled out some of Erica's teeth
Speaker 1: to try to make the body harder to identify, and
Speaker 1: then the family returned to Wisconsin, but Taylan started having
Speaker 1: second thoughts. Allegedly, Taylan began worrying that an elderly person
Speaker 1: might stumble upon Erica's remains and have a heart attack,
Speaker 1: so they drove back to Chicago, picked up Erica's charred body,
Speaker 1: and took it to Gary, where they left the body
Speaker 1: inside an abandoned garage. Kara said that if any and
Speaker 1: asked about Erica, their mother would say Erica had moved
Speaker 1: to live with another family member in Illinois. She was
Speaker 1: never reported missing. The incident haunted Chiara, and years later,
Speaker 1: after she'd moved out of her abusive mother's house and
Speaker 1: begun going to therapy. She finally gained the courage to
Speaker 1: confront what had happened, and in she came across the
Speaker 1: newly commissioned facial reconstructions of Erica, and she reached out
Speaker 1: to the Gary police. The new details led investigators to
Speaker 1: charge Hill with multiple counts of abuse and first degree murder.
Speaker 1: The police were able to verify much of Kira's story,
Speaker 1: and Taylor ended up being convicted for the murder and
Speaker 1: sentenced to twenty years in prison. I told Hargrove about
Speaker 1: Erica and how she was killed. To me that that's
Speaker 1: an example of the challenge of this, right, some of
Speaker 1: the data is just going to be stuff like that
Speaker 1: that an algorithm can never make that connection. No algorithm
Speaker 1: is going to be perfect, and no computer is really
Speaker 1: going to do the work of of police. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's in the end, it's hard work to solve these Boy,
Speaker 1: this is a strange case. So in two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: Gary was famous enough that if you have to get
Speaker 1: rid of a body, you know to go there, even
Speaker 1: if you're two states away. That's crazy, Like they don't
Speaker 1: have enough trouble. But this is the place to drop
Speaker 1: your bodies. Erica clearly wasn't a victim of Darren Vaughan
Speaker 1: or another Gary serial killer, but her case shows how
Speaker 1: hard it can be to solve these cold cases. Even
Speaker 1: once a body is discovered, it can be almost impossible
Speaker 1: to know when and where a victim was killed. As
Speaker 1: I continue you going through Hargrove's list and reading old
Speaker 1: newspaper articles, it felt to me like the murders fell
Speaker 1: into two categories. There were murders where the information was
Speaker 1: extremely scarce, where he sometimes couldn't find a single article
Speaker 1: about the homicide. And then there were others with more details,
Speaker 1: details that have been published because police had eventually identified
Speaker 1: a suspect and information about the murderer had come out
Speaker 1: in court. For example, the very first murder on Hargrove's list,
Speaker 1: Suzanne Router, Hargrove's letter said that Suzanne Router was found
Speaker 1: on November. She was found stuffed into bags on a
Speaker 1: back porch and she'd been strangled. Darren Vaughan would have
Speaker 1: been about twenty years old when this took place, and
Speaker 1: this would have been before he joined the Marines and
Speaker 1: left the area. I found a newspaper article about Router's death.
Speaker 1: She was a secretary who disappeared just before Thanksgiving in
Speaker 1: She was later found dismember bird in a trash bag
Speaker 1: outside an apartment building. But from the article, it seemed
Speaker 1: like she wasn't found in Lake County, Indiana, but rather
Speaker 1: in Chicago, and that she lived in Chicago as well,
Speaker 1: And it looked like well the case had never been solved.
Speaker 1: Police had made an arrest and charged someone for the crime,
Speaker 1: a man named Anthony Pressley. Pressley lived in the apartment
Speaker 1: building where Suzanne was found, and it turned out that
Speaker 1: he knew her. According to some they were dating. Others
Speaker 1: said he was her drug dealer. Regardless, he became the
Speaker 1: prime suspect in the case, and he was eventually charged
Speaker 1: with the crime. But I was confused, why was this
Speaker 1: case on Hargrow's list in the first place if her
Speaker 1: body wasn't found in Lake County, Indiana. I reached out
Speaker 1: to Pressley's lawyer, Richard Kling, to see if the case
Speaker 1: was somehow connected to Lake County. When I emailed you,
Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't sure if you'd remember the case
Speaker 1: at all. It's almost thirty years old at this point,
Speaker 1: what what makes this case stand out to you? You know,
Speaker 1: I have tried over five cases. Um, there are some
Speaker 1: cases that stick in your mind, and this was a
Speaker 1: case that stuck in my mind because Number one, we
Speaker 1: had we had a good defense to the forensic evidence,
Speaker 1: if you can call it forensic evidence. And first of all,
Speaker 1: let me tell you that what we will talk about
Speaker 1: is not at all based on attorney client privileged issue.
Speaker 1: It's all based on my observations and what I know
Speaker 1: about the case from from the case, not from words
Speaker 1: of Mr Presley. I was appointed to represent him. He
Speaker 1: was charged with murder of his girlfriend who was found
Speaker 1: on the back porch and a body back, and his
Speaker 1: defense was that he had been dealing drugs and that
Speaker 1: he owed the person he was dealing with a lot
Speaker 1: of money. The person came and essentially told him, if
Speaker 1: you don't pay up, something's going to happen. And the
Speaker 1: next day is when his girlfriend was found in a
Speaker 1: body back. So I don't think it has anything to
Speaker 1: do with in the serial killer. It was once in
Speaker 1: a lifetime thing. The Chicago Police Department aim that they've
Speaker 1: done a hair analysis that linked Pressley to the murder.
Speaker 1: There was a hair which was found in the body bag,
Speaker 1: or a couple of hairs on the back of the
Speaker 1: body begs under the tape, and they were examined by
Speaker 1: the Chicago Police Department, and in the opinion of the
Speaker 1: Chicago Police Departments here analysis he came to the conclusion
Speaker 1: that the hair on the body bag was morphologically similar
Speaker 1: to the hair of the defendant. At the time, DNA
Speaker 1: didn't exist. The only benefit of the hair evidence was
Speaker 1: that under a microscope you can morphologically tell the difference
Speaker 1: between Caucasian had hair, Nigroid head hair, and mono head hair.
Speaker 1: They have different textures, different components inside, and you can
Speaker 1: definitely tell the difference. Today, the follicles from those hairs
Speaker 1: might be tested for DNA that could either conclusively link
Speaker 1: the hair suppressley or show that they belonged to someone else.
Speaker 1: But at the time the hairs were just examined under
Speaker 1: a microscope, and this hair analysis could only reliably determine
Speaker 1: the ray of the person the hairs had come from.
Speaker 1: My cross was very simple. My cross to the hair
Speaker 1: examiner was, when you say it's morphologically similar, that's because
Speaker 1: you know it came from an African American. Is that right? Yes?
Speaker 1: It is. In fact, the head hair is morphologically similar
Speaker 1: to the two front jurors, is it not, Yes, it is,
Speaker 1: And it was morphologically similar to the head hair of
Speaker 1: the judge, isn't it? Yes, it is, no further question,
Speaker 1: and that that was essentially the case that that blew
Speaker 1: apart their case. The only thing they had really was
Speaker 1: the head hair and the body on the back of
Speaker 1: his porch. It's not good to find your girlfriend's body
Speaker 1: on the back of your porch. But he had an
Speaker 1: explanation as to why she was there, and it was
Speaker 1: assigned by the person to go old money too that
Speaker 1: you don't pay up, this is what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: I think that was a good summary of the whole story.
Speaker 1: So I came across this case in you know, what
Speaker 1: I thought was a list of all crimes that had
Speaker 1: happened in Wake County, Indiana, and then this is actually
Speaker 1: like a case in Chicago. Do you know if any
Speaker 1: police from Wake County, Indiana or something like that would
Speaker 1: have been involved, or if there's some connection where it
Speaker 1: would have ended up in a database. No, they would
Speaker 1: not have, and to my knowledge they were not. To
Speaker 1: my knowledge, it was strictly a body phone on the
Speaker 1: back of a Portugal County They had the guy who
Speaker 1: they believed was responsible, and that was the end of
Speaker 1: the investigation. You know, whether it was tunnel vision. On
Speaker 1: the other hand, it's a it's a pretty clear tunnel
Speaker 1: when a dead body is fumed on your back porch
Speaker 1: and there's a relationship between the defendant and the Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't think Indiana was ever involved. I asked
Speaker 1: Hargrove if he knew how a Chicago case had ended
Speaker 1: up on the list. I started looking into Susanne Router.
Speaker 1: It looks like she was actually murdered in Chicago, Illinois. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: just over the line. Okay, And so is that you
Speaker 1: know it was a case when you're looking at this
Speaker 1: Chicago metropolitan area, you identified that one and felt like
Speaker 1: it fit in with the other cluster. Oh. In fact,
Speaker 1: I think she was originally coded in Lake County and
Speaker 1: it was a mistake. Okay. Um, so no, I think
Speaker 1: it was a miscoding originally, although um, she does look
Speaker 1: like part of the pattern. I was surprised to hear
Speaker 1: Hargrove say that, because from what I've learned to me,
Speaker 1: it didn't seem like she was part of the pattern.
Speaker 1: Then that's one where when you look into it, her
Speaker 1: body was found in the trash can of this guy
Speaker 1: who was either her boyfriend or her drug dealer, or
Speaker 1: maybe both. I think the fact that Router's body had
Speaker 1: shown up in the trash can of one of her acquaintances,
Speaker 1: it was just too much of a coincidence for it
Speaker 1: to have been a random murder conducted by a serial killer.
Speaker 1: And as they looked into it more, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: about hargroves explanation for how she showed up on his list.
Speaker 1: I don't think an error was made in the coding
Speaker 1: of Router's death because there's another unsolved strangulation case and
Speaker 1: Gary for the same year, Santina Williams, a thirty one
Speaker 1: year old black woman who has found hung in the
Speaker 1: bathroom at Gary Street and Gary. I can see how
Speaker 1: police investigating Hargrove's list might have dismissed it when the
Speaker 1: very first murderer is actually in Chicago and police had
Speaker 1: identified a strong suspect in the case. But you have
Speaker 1: to remember Hargreave was working with anonymized data. He was
Speaker 1: trying to link cases from newspaper articles to the cases
Speaker 1: from the algorithm himself from halfway across the country because
Speaker 1: the police refused to talk to him. Also, Hargrove had
Speaker 1: never claimed that every murder identified with the algorithm was
Speaker 1: the work of a serial killer, just that he'd identified
Speaker 1: a type of murder where an unusual number of killings
Speaker 1: had gone unsolved, and that therefore these murders were more
Speaker 1: likely to have been done by a serial killer and
Speaker 1: should be given extra scrutiny. But while routers killing in
Speaker 1: Chicago was likely unconnected to Van, Interestingly, Chicago has his
Speaker 1: own cluster of strangulations that the algorithm identified, and in
Speaker 1: his interrogation, Von claimed Chicago was where he went to kill.
Speaker 1: Illinois probably had a whole lot of They had more
Speaker 1: in India. They have way more in India. The first
Speaker 1: time I spoke to Hargrove, I mentioned that police had
Speaker 1: monitored Von's cell phone shortly after he'd murdered Africa and
Speaker 1: they saw he traveled into South Chicago. Well, there are
Speaker 1: plenty of unsolved maybe he had something to do with
Speaker 1: some of those. Sources told the Chicago Sometimes that after
Speaker 1: murdering Africa, Von had spent more than twelve hours driving
Speaker 1: through the South suburbs of Chicago, and police in the
Speaker 1: neighborhoods of Harvey, Markham and Hazel Crest searched twenty six
Speaker 1: abandoned homes with a cadaver dog. Hargrove hadn't heard about
Speaker 1: Bond's connection to Chicago, but he said he was interested
Speaker 1: in a cluster of over fifty strangulations there. We are
Speaker 1: convinced that there's a there are active, more than one
Speaker 1: serial killers working the South and West sides of Chicago.
Speaker 1: They've all been strangled, almost always sexually disrobed in some way,
Speaker 1: and a great many of them put into trash cans.
Speaker 1: I don't think we're done knowing all of the people
Speaker 1: that Mr. Van killed. You're the first to tell me
Speaker 1: that he had been hanging around Chicago. Do you know
Speaker 1: what parts of Chicago? Because if you go to the
Speaker 1: map we've done of the Chicago murders, there's a very
Speaker 1: odd element. There is a linear pattern on many of
Speaker 1: the South Side murders which happens to exactly conform to
Speaker 1: the Chicago Transit green line. Um. We've told the Chicago
Speaker 1: police that We've told them we're sure it's not a coincidence,
Speaker 1: but we don't know what it means it could be
Speaker 1: that the killer is using mass transit. It could also
Speaker 1: mean that, um, it's a hooker walk under the elevated trains.
Speaker 1: That's that's possible too. So we don't know if it's
Speaker 1: an indicator of the m O of the killer or
Speaker 1: just where the targets are easily available. We don't know,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it ain't a coincidence. The linearity
Speaker 1: of the pattern is striking. When I talk to Hargrove
Speaker 1: again about Vond's confessions, I wanted to tell him specifically
Speaker 1: about what von had mentioned about murders in Illinois. I
Speaker 1: call it the states your rageous they are still don't
Speaker 1: go right. I'll look, we're out. Are you try to
Speaker 1: go to Illinoise where I have my guns? But if
Speaker 1: I don't have a way to get there or like
Speaker 1: right now and watching my soups the kids. So if
Speaker 1: I get upset, I can't just leave up on sketching.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, and the schedule compressed, that's
Speaker 1: how to do that. What does that calls you go
Speaker 1: into a range flash year is brutly pan. I can't work.
Speaker 1: I'm going to get my idea. Wont to give my
Speaker 1: idea just so much. I'm just like I'm tired. Doesn't
Speaker 1: do anything for you. I want to say release is pressure,
Speaker 1: because really I just rather tell me how crazy got
Speaker 1: time all the times? Just want to walk and something
Speaker 1: to blow everything up. I guess what I'm asking, how
Speaker 1: do you connect the rage with these people that they're right? All?
Speaker 1: It does take your wrong person to say something or
Speaker 1: triggers something from my past. That's why I really can't
Speaker 1: give the Illinoise because Illinois probably has a whole lot
Speaker 1: of they have more in the Indian Let's say that
Speaker 1: they away more in India. Vaughn said that he killed
Speaker 1: more in Illinois than he had in Indiana. And remember
Speaker 1: what her Grove had said about the murderers along the
Speaker 1: train line. Here's what Von told detectives when they asked
Speaker 1: him where he'd stay in Chicago. What were you saying
Speaker 1: that over there? I don't have the stage where he
Speaker 1: was just I just I get on the train. But
Speaker 1: I was like, I know a move. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: get far away from my family, myself, myself living. Yes,
Speaker 1: he said there that when he felt himself slipping into
Speaker 1: a murder rage, he'd go to Chicago. Because he liked
Speaker 1: to keep his murders far away from his family. But
Speaker 1: a few days later, in another interrogation, Vaughn changed his story.
Speaker 1: He repeated that he killed many how many in Chicago?
Speaker 1: At how many do you recall in Chicago? I ain't
Speaker 1: know for a fact, at least killed maybe over a dozen,
Speaker 1: over a dozen of Chicago right. But this time he
Speaker 1: says that these Chicago killings weren't part of his murder rages. Instead,
Speaker 1: he says that all of the Chicago killings were gang
Speaker 1: related and that they've taken place in the nineties, in
Speaker 1: early two thousand's. Chicago has a lot because that's where
Speaker 1: of gangs. Vain Chica the first time we Chica about
Speaker 1: you know, lamon with the deed so obvious. In fact,
Speaker 1: I love my virginity in Chicago. So as a long
Speaker 1: time how many of Marko I'm kills more army rue
Speaker 1: children hart China City? One? How long ago? If it
Speaker 1: was more our early nineties? So I stayed too long?
Speaker 1: After I go now into the service, I'm sorry traveling okay?
Speaker 1: And these would be uh, males and females all e mails,
Speaker 1: all these are all males, all just all gang relates.
Speaker 1: They were all these demos between one years eighty nine
Speaker 1: two thousand, in or towards the end of the final
Speaker 1: interrogation Forda spawn if he'd ever confess to murders in
Speaker 1: other states? Did you think that will ever find any
Speaker 1: of the murders you did in other states? I doubt it.
Speaker 1: I know what I'm gonna say, y'all won't find and
Speaker 1: say y'all already found them. I know for a fact
Speaker 1: the one in California, one of ones California know y'all found.
Speaker 1: Why do you say that? Because it was everywhere if
Speaker 1: you need it was, there was everywhere for they know area.
Speaker 1: It was like they were having the field. They're like,
Speaker 1: we have murder over here. Know what I'm saying. But
Speaker 1: I won't worried about it was because all stuff of
Speaker 1: those trason I didn't go in the house. I didn't
Speaker 1: load the gun. I just checked to make sure we're fired.
Speaker 1: And if y'all find a person killed, it ain't gonna
Speaker 1: be my fingerprints on it. Then like the gun came
Speaker 1: back the Indiana good old U s steel meal stripped down,
Speaker 1: dropped in the furnace. I don't have to worry about
Speaker 1: you all but it's sold out to whoever you want
Speaker 1: take them. Y'all gonna have them. So y'all have found
Speaker 1: some of my merriers. I know this for a fact,
Speaker 1: having and found something. Basically, yeah, Texas and found something.
Speaker 1: What about girls? Yeah, you'll no found him? No women
Speaker 1: in Texas. No, I don't do That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: This is a new thing. This is more of my
Speaker 1: anger to it. Like I got locked up for a
Speaker 1: processitude I paid. I see in my mind, why was
Speaker 1: our called five years? I should have just killed her,
Speaker 1: that was my thing. I was upset. I should have
Speaker 1: just killed her because supposing the bodies are easy, We're
Speaker 1: in Texas. Y'all got an ocean. I know that sounds weird,
Speaker 1: but y'all have an ocean, and the ocean is probably
Speaker 1: the best. Like like Michigan Lake Michigan probably have so
Speaker 1: many bodies in it's not funny. They're they wash up
Speaker 1: every now and that, right, But by telling y'all get them,
Speaker 1: it's useless if I find a way, because I can
Speaker 1: be resourceful here and there, say we discover one that's
Speaker 1: out of state, I won't get you nothing. Now, we'll
Speaker 1: just foll on the and I can keep you in Indiana,
Speaker 1: even if it's written out, I can keep you in Indiana.
Speaker 1: I'm not going on how to say this. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to open any other jurdictions like I gave you
Speaker 1: one and Gary because I felt they needed to get
Speaker 1: and then pretty much you and Zego who all right, guys, Gary, Gary'
Speaker 1: is a sesspool. I have no respect for nothing in Gary.
Speaker 1: So if you was a fine thirteen of my murders,
Speaker 1: dig up with building, or they knock it down and
Speaker 1: building and find Gary can. I don't wanna be disful.
Speaker 1: They can kiss me with a sun don't shine. They'll
Speaker 1: just have unsolved on their books because they got a
Speaker 1: couple of one songs on the book that's probably mine.
Speaker 1: Bond said that in addition to the out of state
Speaker 1: murders he didn't want to confess to, he had also
Speaker 1: committed additional murders and Gary that he didn't want to
Speaker 1: confess to you because he hated Gary. But the interrogation
Speaker 1: ended rather abruptly after police learned that Bond had met
Speaker 1: with the lawyer. If we found something that that you
Speaker 1: had done, or I know you're not gonna talk against
Speaker 1: somebody else or I already know that. Would you ever
Speaker 1: let us know that we were on the right track
Speaker 1: anything with gang activity, y'all will never get an answer
Speaker 1: from me for him. Okay, if y'all actually coming and
Speaker 1: said we think you killed this person, we know you're
Speaker 1: probably killed them with somebody else, beaud you tell if
Speaker 1: you killed him and I know it was a person
Speaker 1: I killed, that maybe he didn't need to be killed.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to ask gonna work because I'm
Speaker 1: not even supposed to be. Not a lawyer came to
Speaker 1: me that he's a y'all're not supposed to be to him,
Speaker 1: not supposed to be to y'alla. You said you taught
Speaker 1: a lawyer name. Yeah, you can't see you that he
Speaker 1: gave me a lawyer because I don't go to court tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Who who did? Y'all can't be a lawyer? Math In Finch?
Speaker 1: You might if I that's right, because he told me
Speaker 1: I'll speak to y'all. I'm like whatever. Because he wants
Speaker 1: to do with the Mother's ship. I don't want it.
Speaker 1: You could have told us that en up beginning, But
Speaker 1: he's not important to me because I might have to
Speaker 1: fire because he doesn't agree with my apology. He doesn't
Speaker 1: believe the capital punish, which I don't understand how y'all
Speaker 1: gave me a lawyers can cap punish and not toldom
Speaker 1: lawyers and I don't have right. But I mean y'all
Speaker 1: spoke to him. They could have told him he I
Speaker 1: believe the capital punish, probably more than y'all believe in
Speaker 1: capital punished. I'm more a wild West person. We've got
Speaker 1: a problem with you. I rather just call y'all three
Speaker 1: guineas down because it's my way. We're still being overwet.
Speaker 1: I don't like you. That's going out of back. You know.
Speaker 1: At the time, Bund said he didn't want to confess
Speaker 1: to any murders out of state because he wanted to
Speaker 1: get the death penalty and he wanted to get executed
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. But somewhere down the line he
Speaker 1: changed his mind. So what exactly happened there and might
Speaker 1: mean that Von would be open to confessing now next
Speaker 1: time on algorithm. There's not easy answer to your question, man,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's from the very beginning and want death.
Speaker 1: I want death. I want death, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: about three days, four days before we cut the play,
Speaker 1: he changed his mind. Were the second biggest county in
Speaker 1: the state. I mean, given the numbers that we have
Speaker 1: seen at our agency of reporting people, I cannot imagine
Speaker 1: what it would be like for a law enforcement officer
Speaker 1: with that many cases on their death. They ended up
Speaker 1: stripping him down naked and putting him in a restraint
Speaker 1: chair and they put some kind of vest on him.
Speaker 1: We all him into court and Teresa just went absolutely ship.
Speaker 1: Do you know if he heard about the whole Hardgrove story? It, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I talked to him about This episode was written and
Speaker 1: produced by me ben Key. Brick Algorithm is executive produced
Speaker 1: by Alex Williams, Donald Albright, and Matt Frederick. Production assistance
Speaker 1: and mixing by Eric Quintana. The music is by Makeup
Speaker 1: and Vanity Set and Blue Dot Sessions. Thanks to Christina Dana,
Speaker 1: Miranda Hawkins, Jamie Albright, Rema l k Ali, Trevor Young,
Speaker 1: and Josh Thane for their help and notes. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say I really enjoyed all the
Speaker 1: messages we got after the Q and a episode. There
Speaker 1: were a lot of great suggestions of cases to look into.
Speaker 1: I haven't gotten a chance to respond to all your
Speaker 1: messages yet, but I will. And thanks to everyone who
Speaker 1: left reviews on Apple Podcasts. I really appreciate that as well.