1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,479 Speaker 1: those of the authors and participants and do not necessarily 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: represent those of iHeart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: This series contains discussions of violence and sexual violence. Listener 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: discretion is advised previously an algorithm. After Vaughan's release from 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: prison in August, he returned to Gary and his confirmed 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: murders appeared to begin early in fourteen with the disappearance 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: of Tierra Baty as way nor call it never happened, 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: and although her fiance, Marvin Clinton, uncovered that a man 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: was using her cell phone and provided cell records to police, 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: it appears police didn't investigate this lead. They looked at 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: about they didn't have it, so we don't know what 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: the other detective dea where did it? Blew it away? 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: On what abblicate may be. And when Vaughan kidnapped and 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted a sex worker, her rape kit went untested 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: and that left bond free to continue to kill. No 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: sexual assaults in particular, the departments are under resource, they're 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: not followed up on, and this is what happens when 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: you don't follow up on them. Sexual offenders continue to offend, 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: but could Vaughan have been stopped even earlier? The police 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: had just heated hard Groups warnings from my Heart Radio 22 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: and Tenderfoot TV. This is Algorithm. I'm benk kee Brick. 23 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: After I'd gone through Vond's interrogations, I reached back out 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: to Hargrove. I'm not sure if he remembered who I was, 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: so I'm sorry. I've forgotten which podcast is this. I 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: tried not to take it personally. It had been almost 27 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: a year since I first contacted him, and while I've 28 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: been going back and listening to my interviews with him 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: over and over as they worked on the early episodes. 30 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: To him, I was just some random guy who reached 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: out to him with the vague idea that I was 32 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: going to make a pie cast. But when I let 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: him know I'd managed to get my hands on Von's confessions, 34 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: he lit up. You did. Yeah, that's one of the 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: things that I was really excited about and wanted to 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: share with you. You you're making news. Yeah, So it 37 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: got a lot of audio. It's almost all of his confessions. 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: I told hard Growth that had gone through Von's confessions 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: looking for some sort of smoking gun that would clearly 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: connect him to one of the crimes hard Grove had identified, 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: but it was Hard bonded confession erically to committing many murders. 42 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: How many people are you responsible for killing? Is a 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: lifetime are couldn't need the two. But Von hadn't provided 44 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: many details about these crimes, and when it came to 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: cold cases in Indiana, he'd only provided specifics about two incidents, 46 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: the two murders he said he was responsible for in 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: Hammond when Detective Ford had pressed him. And these two 48 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 1: crimes that Von described didn't match the ones from Hargrove's algorithm, 49 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: but were cheatings and not strangulations. But I did now 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: have a much better sense of Vaughan and his m O, 51 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: so I decided to go back through the crimes hard 52 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: Grove had identified and researched them to see if any 53 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: stood out. I was looking for crimes from when Von 54 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: was living in Gary, especially where the victim might have 55 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: had a history of sex work or drug abuse, or 56 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: crimes where it appeared the victim had been discovered in 57 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: an abandoned building long after they've been killed. Hard Grove's 58 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: algorithm had identified fifteen women who had been strangled between 59 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: and two thousand seven, and he had identified what he 60 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: saw as two rough patterns. In recent years, several women 61 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: have been strangled in their homes. In at least two cases, 62 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: of fire was set after the women were killed. Also, 63 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: starting in the nineteen nineties, we've seen several women who 64 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: were found strangled in or near abandoned buildings. I decided 65 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: to start with one of the more recent cases on 66 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: hard Groves list. Her Grove's letter stated that an unidentified 67 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: female victim had been found in an abandoned garage on 68 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: February two thousand seven, and her body had been set 69 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: on fire. This would have been a couple of years 70 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: after Vaughan's incident with Sharita and the gasoline, so I 71 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: wondered if Vaughn might have a fixation with fire. Plus, 72 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: he had mentioned in the interrogations that the incident with 73 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: Sharita had made him go back out of control, it 74 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: had awakened his murder rages, so I thought that might 75 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: be an indication that he'd started killing soon after that. 76 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: It turned out that there had been a breakthroughing the 77 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: case after Hargrove had sent the letter to Gary police. 78 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: She has been dead for seven years. Her name remains 79 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: a mystery, but the Lake County, Indiana Corners Office it's 80 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: hopeful that new forensic artwork will give a real name 81 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: to Jane Gary Dough. The National Center for Missing and 82 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: Exploited Children put out a new facial reconstruction of the victim. 83 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: They were hoping that a member of the public could 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: identify her. The new picture was published in the local paper, 85 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: which also mentioned that she was thought to be somewhere 86 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: between sixteen and twenty, and that she had scars in 87 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: various stages of healing on her face and torso. She 88 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: was thought to have been killed about a day before 89 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: the body was discovered. Over a year past with no 90 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: leads until August, when a woman named Kira Hill recognized 91 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: the girl in the sketch as her cousin and reported 92 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: it to the Gary police. She said the girl was 93 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: fifteen year old Erika Hill from Fitchburg, Wisconsin, and d 94 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: n A confirmed Kars identification. That family member who identified 95 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: Erica Hill had been holding onto a terrible secret, and 96 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: it turned out Kira didn't just know the victim, she 97 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: knew the murderer as well. Investigators say the relative, who 98 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: does not face charges, had been fearful all of these 99 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: years of retaliation if she told, but decided she wanted 100 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: to end the pattern of abuse. Cira's mother, Taylor, adopt 101 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: did Erica in two thousand one, after Erica's grandmother, who 102 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: had been caring for Erica, passed away. Talan was a 103 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: special education teacher who had three kids of her own. 104 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: She had a good reputation in her neighborhood, but Kiara 105 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: said that behind closed doors, Talan was cruel. Kira said 106 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: her mother beat all of her children, but Erica was 107 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: abused more than the rest, and as the abuse escalated, 108 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: Talan withdrew her children from school, worried that teachers would 109 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: notice the signs of abuse. One night in February two 110 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: thousand seven, Tlan called kar at work and told her 111 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: to come home because of a family emergency. When Kiara 112 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: came home, her mother told her to go into the bathroom, 113 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: but wouldn't tell her why. Kiarra saw Erica lying on 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: the floor. Her skin looked gray. Talan had shoved a 115 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: rag deep into Erica's mouth, and she'd ended up making 116 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: Erica choked to death. According to Kiara, her mother told 117 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: the kid to put Erica into a black garbage bag 118 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: and take her to the garage. Kia said that she 119 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: and the other siblings were terrified of their mother, so 120 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: they complied out of fear. They left Erica's body in 121 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: the garage until it started to smell A few days later. 122 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: Then Taylan had her children load Erica's body into their 123 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: van and they drove from Wisconsin down to Chicago. Taylan 124 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: left Erica's body under a highway overpass. She set fire 125 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: to the body and pulled out some of Erica's teeth 126 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: to try to make the body harder to identify, and 127 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: then the family returned to Wisconsin, but Taylan started having 128 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: second thoughts. Allegedly, Taylan began worrying that an elderly person 129 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: might stumble upon Erica's remains and have a heart attack, 130 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: so they drove back to Chicago, picked up Erica's charred body, 131 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: and took it to Gary, where they left the body 132 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: inside an abandoned garage. Kara said that if any and 133 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: asked about Erica, their mother would say Erica had moved 134 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: to live with another family member in Illinois. She was 135 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: never reported missing. The incident haunted Chiara, and years later, 136 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: after she'd moved out of her abusive mother's house and 137 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: begun going to therapy. She finally gained the courage to 138 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: confront what had happened, and in she came across the 139 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: newly commissioned facial reconstructions of Erica, and she reached out 140 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: to the Gary police. The new details led investigators to 141 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: charge Hill with multiple counts of abuse and first degree murder. 142 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: The police were able to verify much of Kira's story, 143 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: and Taylor ended up being convicted for the murder and 144 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: sentenced to twenty years in prison. I told Hargrove about 145 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: Erica and how she was killed. To me that that's 146 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: an example of the challenge of this, right, some of 147 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: the data is just going to be stuff like that 148 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: that an algorithm can never make that connection. No algorithm 149 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: is going to be perfect, and no computer is really 150 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: going to do the work of of police. I mean, 151 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: it's in the end, it's hard work to solve these Boy, 152 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: this is a strange case. So in two thousand seven, 153 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: Gary was famous enough that if you have to get 154 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: rid of a body, you know to go there, even 155 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: if you're two states away. That's crazy, Like they don't 156 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: have enough trouble. But this is the place to drop 157 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: your bodies. Erica clearly wasn't a victim of Darren Vaughan 158 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: or another Gary serial killer, but her case shows how 159 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: hard it can be to solve these cold cases. Even 160 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: once a body is discovered, it can be almost impossible 161 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: to know when and where a victim was killed. As 162 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: I continue you going through Hargrove's list and reading old 163 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: newspaper articles, it felt to me like the murders fell 164 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: into two categories. There were murders where the information was 165 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: extremely scarce, where he sometimes couldn't find a single article 166 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: about the homicide. And then there were others with more details, 167 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: details that have been published because police had eventually identified 168 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: a suspect and information about the murderer had come out 169 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: in court. For example, the very first murder on Hargrove's list, 170 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: Suzanne Router, Hargrove's letter said that Suzanne Router was found 171 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: on November. She was found stuffed into bags on a 172 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: back porch and she'd been strangled. Darren Vaughan would have 173 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: been about twenty years old when this took place, and 174 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: this would have been before he joined the Marines and 175 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: left the area. I found a newspaper article about Router's death. 176 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: She was a secretary who disappeared just before Thanksgiving in 177 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: She was later found dismember bird in a trash bag 178 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: outside an apartment building. But from the article, it seemed 179 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: like she wasn't found in Lake County, Indiana, but rather 180 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: in Chicago, and that she lived in Chicago as well, 181 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: And it looked like well the case had never been solved. 182 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: Police had made an arrest and charged someone for the crime, 183 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: a man named Anthony Pressley. Pressley lived in the apartment 184 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: building where Suzanne was found, and it turned out that 185 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: he knew her. According to some they were dating. Others 186 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: said he was her drug dealer. Regardless, he became the 187 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: prime suspect in the case, and he was eventually charged 188 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: with the crime. But I was confused, why was this 189 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: case on Hargrow's list in the first place if her 190 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: body wasn't found in Lake County, Indiana. I reached out 191 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: to Pressley's lawyer, Richard Kling, to see if the case 192 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: was somehow connected to Lake County. When I emailed you, 193 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't sure if you'd remember the case 194 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: at all. It's almost thirty years old at this point, 195 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: what what makes this case stand out to you? You know, 196 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: I have tried over five cases. Um, there are some 197 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: cases that stick in your mind, and this was a 198 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: case that stuck in my mind because Number one, we 199 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: had we had a good defense to the forensic evidence, 200 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: if you can call it forensic evidence. And first of all, 201 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: let me tell you that what we will talk about 202 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: is not at all based on attorney client privileged issue. 203 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: It's all based on my observations and what I know 204 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: about the case from from the case, not from words 205 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: of Mr Presley. I was appointed to represent him. He 206 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: was charged with murder of his girlfriend who was found 207 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: on the back porch and a body back, and his 208 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: defense was that he had been dealing drugs and that 209 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: he owed the person he was dealing with a lot 210 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: of money. The person came and essentially told him, if 211 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: you don't pay up, something's going to happen. And the 212 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: next day is when his girlfriend was found in a 213 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: body back. So I don't think it has anything to 214 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: do with in the serial killer. It was once in 215 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: a lifetime thing. The Chicago Police Department aim that they've 216 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: done a hair analysis that linked Pressley to the murder. 217 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: There was a hair which was found in the body bag, 218 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: or a couple of hairs on the back of the 219 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: body begs under the tape, and they were examined by 220 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: the Chicago Police Department, and in the opinion of the 221 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: Chicago Police Departments here analysis he came to the conclusion 222 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: that the hair on the body bag was morphologically similar 223 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: to the hair of the defendant. At the time, DNA 224 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: didn't exist. The only benefit of the hair evidence was 225 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: that under a microscope you can morphologically tell the difference 226 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 1: between Caucasian had hair, Nigroid head hair, and mono head hair. 227 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: They have different textures, different components inside, and you can 228 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: definitely tell the difference. Today, the follicles from those hairs 229 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: might be tested for DNA that could either conclusively link 230 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: the hair suppressley or show that they belonged to someone else. 231 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: But at the time the hairs were just examined under 232 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: a microscope, and this hair analysis could only reliably determine 233 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: the ray of the person the hairs had come from. 234 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: My cross was very simple. My cross to the hair 235 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: examiner was, when you say it's morphologically similar, that's because 236 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: you know it came from an African American. Is that right? Yes? 237 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: It is. In fact, the head hair is morphologically similar 238 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: to the two front jurors, is it not, Yes, it is, 239 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: And it was morphologically similar to the head hair of 240 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: the judge, isn't it? Yes, it is, no further question, 241 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: and that that was essentially the case that that blew 242 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: apart their case. The only thing they had really was 243 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: the head hair and the body on the back of 244 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: his porch. It's not good to find your girlfriend's body 245 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: on the back of your porch. But he had an 246 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: explanation as to why she was there, and it was 247 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: assigned by the person to go old money too that 248 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: you don't pay up, this is what's going to happen. 249 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: I think that was a good summary of the whole story. 250 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: So I came across this case in you know, what 251 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: I thought was a list of all crimes that had 252 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: happened in Wake County, Indiana, and then this is actually 253 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: like a case in Chicago. Do you know if any 254 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: police from Wake County, Indiana or something like that would 255 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: have been involved, or if there's some connection where it 256 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: would have ended up in a database. No, they would 257 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: not have, and to my knowledge they were not. To 258 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: my knowledge, it was strictly a body phone on the 259 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: back of a Portugal County They had the guy who 260 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: they believed was responsible, and that was the end of 261 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: the investigation. You know, whether it was tunnel vision. On 262 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: the other hand, it's a it's a pretty clear tunnel 263 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: when a dead body is fumed on your back porch 264 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: and there's a relationship between the defendant and the Yeah, 265 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: so I don't think Indiana was ever involved. I asked 266 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: Hargrove if he knew how a Chicago case had ended 267 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: up on the list. I started looking into Susanne Router. 268 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: It looks like she was actually murdered in Chicago, Illinois. Yes, yes, 269 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: just over the line. Okay, And so is that you 270 00:15:58,200 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: know it was a case when you're looking at this 271 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: Chicago metropolitan area, you identified that one and felt like 272 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: it fit in with the other cluster. Oh. In fact, 273 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: I think she was originally coded in Lake County and 274 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: it was a mistake. Okay. Um, so no, I think 275 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: it was a miscoding originally, although um, she does look 276 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: like part of the pattern. I was surprised to hear 277 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: Hargrove say that, because from what I've learned to me, 278 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: it didn't seem like she was part of the pattern. 279 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: Then that's one where when you look into it, her 280 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: body was found in the trash can of this guy 281 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: who was either her boyfriend or her drug dealer, or 282 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: maybe both. I think the fact that Router's body had 283 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: shown up in the trash can of one of her acquaintances, 284 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: it was just too much of a coincidence for it 285 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: to have been a random murder conducted by a serial killer. 286 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: And as they looked into it more, I'm not sure 287 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: about hargroves explanation for how she showed up on his list. 288 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: I don't think an error was made in the coding 289 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: of Router's death because there's another unsolved strangulation case and 290 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: Gary for the same year, Santina Williams, a thirty one 291 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: year old black woman who has found hung in the 292 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: bathroom at Gary Street and Gary. I can see how 293 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: police investigating Hargrove's list might have dismissed it when the 294 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 1: very first murderer is actually in Chicago and police had 295 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: identified a strong suspect in the case. But you have 296 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: to remember Hargreave was working with anonymized data. He was 297 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: trying to link cases from newspaper articles to the cases 298 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: from the algorithm himself from halfway across the country because 299 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: the police refused to talk to him. Also, Hargrove had 300 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: never claimed that every murder identified with the algorithm was 301 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: the work of a serial killer, just that he'd identified 302 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: a type of murder where an unusual number of killings 303 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: had gone unsolved, and that therefore these murders were more 304 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 1: likely to have been done by a serial killer and 305 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: should be given extra scrutiny. But while routers killing in 306 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: Chicago was likely unconnected to Van, Interestingly, Chicago has his 307 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: own cluster of strangulations that the algorithm identified, and in 308 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: his interrogation, Von claimed Chicago was where he went to kill. 309 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: Illinois probably had a whole lot of They had more 310 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: in India. They have way more in India. The first 311 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: time I spoke to Hargrove, I mentioned that police had 312 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: monitored Von's cell phone shortly after he'd murdered Africa and 313 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: they saw he traveled into South Chicago. Well, there are 314 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,239 Speaker 1: plenty of unsolved maybe he had something to do with 315 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: some of those. Sources told the Chicago Sometimes that after 316 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: murdering Africa, Von had spent more than twelve hours driving 317 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: through the South suburbs of Chicago, and police in the 318 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: neighborhoods of Harvey, Markham and Hazel Crest searched twenty six 319 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: abandoned homes with a cadaver dog. Hargrove hadn't heard about 320 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: Bond's connection to Chicago, but he said he was interested 321 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: in a cluster of over fifty strangulations there. We are 322 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: convinced that there's a there are active, more than one 323 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: serial killers working the South and West sides of Chicago. 324 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: They've all been strangled, almost always sexually disrobed in some way, 325 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: and a great many of them put into trash cans. 326 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: I don't think we're done knowing all of the people 327 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: that Mr. Van killed. You're the first to tell me 328 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: that he had been hanging around Chicago. Do you know 329 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: what parts of Chicago? Because if you go to the 330 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: map we've done of the Chicago murders, there's a very 331 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: odd element. There is a linear pattern on many of 332 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: the South Side murders which happens to exactly conform to 333 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: the Chicago Transit green line. Um. We've told the Chicago 334 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: police that We've told them we're sure it's not a coincidence, 335 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: but we don't know what it means it could be 336 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: that the killer is using mass transit. It could also 337 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: mean that, um, it's a hooker walk under the elevated trains. 338 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: That's that's possible too. So we don't know if it's 339 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 1: an indicator of the m O of the killer or 340 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: just where the targets are easily available. We don't know, 341 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it ain't a coincidence. The linearity 342 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: of the pattern is striking. When I talk to Hargrove 343 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: again about Vond's confessions, I wanted to tell him specifically 344 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: about what von had mentioned about murders in Illinois. I 345 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: call it the states your rageous they are still don't 346 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: go right. I'll look, we're out. Are you try to 347 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: go to Illinoise where I have my guns? But if 348 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't have a way to get there or like 349 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: right now and watching my soups the kids. So if 350 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: I get upset, I can't just leave up on sketching. 351 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, and the schedule compressed, that's 352 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: how to do that. What does that calls you go 353 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: into a range flash year is brutly pan. I can't work. 354 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to get my idea. Wont to give my 355 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: idea just so much. I'm just like I'm tired. Doesn't 356 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: do anything for you. I want to say release is pressure, 357 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: because really I just rather tell me how crazy got 358 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: time all the times? Just want to walk and something 359 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: to blow everything up. I guess what I'm asking, how 360 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: do you connect the rage with these people that they're right? All? 361 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: It does take your wrong person to say something or 362 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: triggers something from my past. That's why I really can't 363 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: give the Illinoise because Illinois probably has a whole lot 364 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: of they have more in the Indian Let's say that 365 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: they away more in India. Vaughn said that he killed 366 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: more in Illinois than he had in Indiana. And remember 367 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: what her Grove had said about the murderers along the 368 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: train line. Here's what Von told detectives when they asked 369 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: him where he'd stay in Chicago. What were you saying 370 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: that over there? I don't have the stage where he 371 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: was just I just I get on the train. But 372 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: I was like, I know a move. I'm trying to 373 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: get far away from my family, myself, myself living. Yes, 374 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: he said there that when he felt himself slipping into 375 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: a murder rage, he'd go to Chicago. Because he liked 376 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: to keep his murders far away from his family. But 377 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: a few days later, in another interrogation, Vaughn changed his story. 378 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: He repeated that he killed many how many in Chicago? 379 00:22:53,960 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: At how many do you recall in Chicago? I ain't 380 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: know for a fact, at least killed maybe over a dozen, 381 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: over a dozen of Chicago right. But this time he 382 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: says that these Chicago killings weren't part of his murder rages. Instead, 383 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: he says that all of the Chicago killings were gang 384 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: related and that they've taken place in the nineties, in 385 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: early two thousand's. Chicago has a lot because that's where 386 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: of gangs. Vain Chica the first time we Chica about 387 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, lamon with the deed so obvious. In fact, 388 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: I love my virginity in Chicago. So as a long 389 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: time how many of Marko I'm kills more army rue 390 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: children hart China City? One? How long ago? If it 391 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: was more our early nineties? So I stayed too long? 392 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: After I go now into the service, I'm sorry traveling okay? 393 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: And these would be uh, males and females all e mails, 394 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: all these are all males, all just all gang relates. 395 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: They were all these demos between one years eighty nine 396 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: two thousand, in or towards the end of the final 397 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: interrogation Forda spawn if he'd ever confess to murders in 398 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: other states? Did you think that will ever find any 399 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: of the murders you did in other states? I doubt it. 400 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: I know what I'm gonna say, y'all won't find and 401 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: say y'all already found them. I know for a fact 402 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: the one in California, one of ones California know y'all found. 403 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: Why do you say that? Because it was everywhere if 404 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: you need it was, there was everywhere for they know area. 405 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: It was like they were having the field. They're like, 406 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: we have murder over here. Know what I'm saying. But 407 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: I won't worried about it was because all stuff of 408 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: those trason I didn't go in the house. I didn't 409 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: load the gun. I just checked to make sure we're fired. 410 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: And if y'all find a person killed, it ain't gonna 411 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: be my fingerprints on it. Then like the gun came 412 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: back the Indiana good old U s steel meal stripped down, 413 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: dropped in the furnace. I don't have to worry about 414 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: you all but it's sold out to whoever you want 415 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: take them. Y'all gonna have them. So y'all have found 416 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: some of my merriers. I know this for a fact, 417 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: having and found something. Basically, yeah, Texas and found something. 418 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: What about girls? Yeah, you'll no found him? No women 419 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: in Texas. No, I don't do That's what I'm saying. 420 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: This is a new thing. This is more of my 421 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: anger to it. Like I got locked up for a 422 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: processitude I paid. I see in my mind, why was 423 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: our called five years? I should have just killed her, 424 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: that was my thing. I was upset. I should have 425 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: just killed her because supposing the bodies are easy, We're 426 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: in Texas. Y'all got an ocean. I know that sounds weird, 427 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: but y'all have an ocean, and the ocean is probably 428 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: the best. Like like Michigan Lake Michigan probably have so 429 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: many bodies in it's not funny. They're they wash up 430 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: every now and that, right, But by telling y'all get them, 431 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: it's useless if I find a way, because I can 432 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: be resourceful here and there, say we discover one that's 433 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: out of state, I won't get you nothing. Now, we'll 434 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: just foll on the and I can keep you in Indiana, 435 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: even if it's written out, I can keep you in Indiana. 436 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: I'm not going on how to say this. I'm not 437 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: going to open any other jurdictions like I gave you 438 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: one and Gary because I felt they needed to get 439 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: and then pretty much you and Zego who all right, guys, Gary, Gary' 440 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,959 Speaker 1: is a sesspool. I have no respect for nothing in Gary. 441 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: So if you was a fine thirteen of my murders, 442 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: dig up with building, or they knock it down and 443 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: building and find Gary can. I don't wanna be disful. 444 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: They can kiss me with a sun don't shine. They'll 445 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: just have unsolved on their books because they got a 446 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: couple of one songs on the book that's probably mine. 447 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: Bond said that in addition to the out of state 448 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: murders he didn't want to confess to, he had also 449 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: committed additional murders and Gary that he didn't want to 450 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: confess to you because he hated Gary. But the interrogation 451 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: ended rather abruptly after police learned that Bond had met 452 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: with the lawyer. If we found something that that you 453 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: had done, or I know you're not gonna talk against 454 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: somebody else or I already know that. Would you ever 455 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: let us know that we were on the right track 456 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: anything with gang activity, y'all will never get an answer 457 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: from me for him. Okay, if y'all actually coming and 458 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: said we think you killed this person, we know you're 459 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: probably killed them with somebody else, beaud you tell if 460 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: you killed him and I know it was a person 461 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: I killed, that maybe he didn't need to be killed. 462 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: I don't know how to ask gonna work because I'm 463 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: not even supposed to be. Not a lawyer came to 464 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: me that he's a y'all're not supposed to be to him, 465 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: not supposed to be to y'alla. You said you taught 466 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: a lawyer name. Yeah, you can't see you that he 467 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: gave me a lawyer because I don't go to court tomorrow. 468 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: Who who did? Y'all can't be a lawyer? Math In Finch? 469 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: You might if I that's right, because he told me 470 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: I'll speak to y'all. I'm like whatever. Because he wants 471 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: to do with the Mother's ship. I don't want it. 472 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: You could have told us that en up beginning, But 473 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: he's not important to me because I might have to 474 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: fire because he doesn't agree with my apology. He doesn't 475 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: believe the capital punish, which I don't understand how y'all 476 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: gave me a lawyers can cap punish and not toldom 477 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: lawyers and I don't have right. But I mean y'all 478 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: spoke to him. They could have told him he I 479 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: believe the capital punish, probably more than y'all believe in 480 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: capital punished. I'm more a wild West person. We've got 481 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: a problem with you. I rather just call y'all three 482 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: guineas down because it's my way. We're still being overwet. 483 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: I don't like you. That's going out of back. You know. 484 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: At the time, Bund said he didn't want to confess 485 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: to any murders out of state because he wanted to 486 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: get the death penalty and he wanted to get executed 487 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. But somewhere down the line he 488 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: changed his mind. So what exactly happened there and might 489 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: mean that Von would be open to confessing now next 490 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: time on algorithm. There's not easy answer to your question, man, 491 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's from the very beginning and want death. 492 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: I want death. I want death, and all of a sudden, 493 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: about three days, four days before we cut the play, 494 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: he changed his mind. Were the second biggest county in 495 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: the state. I mean, given the numbers that we have 496 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: seen at our agency of reporting people, I cannot imagine 497 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: what it would be like for a law enforcement officer 498 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: with that many cases on their death. They ended up 499 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: stripping him down naked and putting him in a restraint 500 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: chair and they put some kind of vest on him. 501 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: We all him into court and Teresa just went absolutely ship. 502 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: Do you know if he heard about the whole Hardgrove story? It, Yeah, 503 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: I talked to him about This episode was written and 504 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: produced by me ben Key. Brick Algorithm is executive produced 505 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: by Alex Williams, Donald Albright, and Matt Frederick. Production assistance 506 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: and mixing by Eric Quintana. The music is by Makeup 507 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: and Vanity Set and Blue Dot Sessions. Thanks to Christina Dana, 508 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: Miranda Hawkins, Jamie Albright, Rema l k Ali, Trevor Young, 509 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: and Josh Thane for their help and notes. For more 510 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 511 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And Hey, guys, 512 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: I just wanted to say I really enjoyed all the 513 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,239 Speaker 1: messages we got after the Q and a episode. There 514 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: were a lot of great suggestions of cases to look into. 515 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: I haven't gotten a chance to respond to all your 516 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: messages yet, but I will. And thanks to everyone who 517 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: left reviews on Apple Podcasts. I really appreciate that as well.