1 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:47,921 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:49,241 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold case murders in 3 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: an effort to raise public awareness invite witnesses to come 4 00:00:56,241 --> 00:01:00,121 Speaker 2: forward and present evidence that could potentially be further investigated 5 00:01:00,121 --> 00:01:03,761 Speaker 2: by law enforcement. While we value insights from family and 6 00:01:03,801 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: community members, their statements should not be considered evidence and 7 00:01:07,761 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: point to the challenges of verifying facts inherent in cold cases. 8 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: We remind listeners that everyone has presumed innocent until proven 9 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: guilty in a court of law. Nothing in the podcast 10 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: is intended to state or imply that anyone who has 11 00:01:22,161 --> 00:01:25,601 Speaker 2: not been convicted of a crime is guilty of any wrongdoing. 12 00:01:26,241 --> 00:01:27,121 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. 13 00:01:29,561 --> 00:01:33,521 Speaker 3: On Friday, December twelfth, nineteen eighty, at approximately six forty 14 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: five in the morning, the Mississippi County Sheriff's Department got 15 00:01:36,721 --> 00:01:39,521 Speaker 3: a call about a female body lying on the side 16 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,201 Speaker 3: of the road. The location of the body was on 17 00:01:43,281 --> 00:01:45,841 Speaker 3: Highway J one eight one, just south of Highway one 18 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: fifty eight. The caller was a man named Arbora dal 19 00:01:50,041 --> 00:01:54,721 Speaker 3: Watkins who lived nearby in Manila, Arkansas. He told police 20 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,441 Speaker 3: he had been en route to his job at the 21 00:01:56,441 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: brown shoe factory in Osceola when he turned south on 22 00:01:59,641 --> 00:02:02,441 Speaker 3: the highway and saw the body lying in the edge 23 00:02:02,441 --> 00:02:05,161 Speaker 3: of a ditch. He went to a nearby business, the 24 00:02:05,281 --> 00:02:09,001 Speaker 3: Reese Wholesale Furniture Outlet, in contacted the Arkansas State Police 25 00:02:09,001 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 3: in Jonesborough, who then called the Mississippi County Sheriff's Office 26 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,241 Speaker 3: because the body was in their jurisdiction. Officer Richard Nash 27 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,921 Speaker 3: from the Mississippi County Sheriff's Department arrived at the scene 28 00:02:20,001 --> 00:02:23,441 Speaker 3: at six fifty six am. He came to meet the 29 00:02:23,481 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 3: guy who had called police and to start processing the 30 00:02:26,601 --> 00:02:30,041 Speaker 3: crime scene. The woman was dressed in a striped red 31 00:02:30,081 --> 00:02:33,481 Speaker 3: colored dress and velveteen jacket. She was five foot five. 32 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,281 Speaker 3: She weighed around one hundred and fifteen pounds. The woman 33 00:02:37,441 --> 00:02:40,401 Speaker 3: was carrying a reddish brown clutch bag under her right arm. 34 00:02:40,761 --> 00:02:43,281 Speaker 3: Detectives were able to go into that bag and find 35 00:02:43,281 --> 00:02:47,081 Speaker 3: her ID. That's when they knew who this woman was. 36 00:02:48,441 --> 00:02:51,441 Speaker 3: Barbara and Bryan, a thirty year old mother of two 37 00:02:51,641 --> 00:02:55,641 Speaker 3: from a Pontou, Arkansas. It was not hard to figure 38 00:02:55,681 --> 00:02:59,281 Speaker 3: out the cause of death. Barbara had massive holes blown 39 00:02:59,321 --> 00:03:02,921 Speaker 3: into her body by a shotgun. The shots were so 40 00:03:03,121 --> 00:03:06,641 Speaker 3: violent that pieces of her hair and skull were found 41 00:03:06,801 --> 00:03:12,761 Speaker 3: twenty feet away. So once again in rural Arkansas, we 42 00:03:12,841 --> 00:03:15,001 Speaker 3: have a woman whose body was found in a ditch 43 00:03:15,041 --> 00:03:18,121 Speaker 3: near a highway and her car was found several miles 44 00:03:18,161 --> 00:03:22,201 Speaker 3: down the road. And just like in Amanda Tussing's case, 45 00:03:22,761 --> 00:03:26,121 Speaker 3: which we discussed last week, there were suspicions that a 46 00:03:26,161 --> 00:03:31,441 Speaker 3: police officer may have been involved, and Barbara's murder is 47 00:03:31,521 --> 00:03:37,561 Speaker 3: also still unsolved. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past five 48 00:03:37,641 --> 00:03:40,681 Speaker 3: years of making my true crime podcast, Helling Gone, I 49 00:03:40,721 --> 00:03:42,761 Speaker 3: have learned that there is no such thing as a 50 00:03:42,801 --> 00:03:46,681 Speaker 3: small town where never happens. I have received hundreds of 51 00:03:46,721 --> 00:03:50,241 Speaker 3: messages from people all around the country asking for help 52 00:03:50,281 --> 00:03:53,641 Speaker 3: with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and 53 00:03:53,681 --> 00:03:56,481 Speaker 3: their communities. If you have a case you'd like me 54 00:03:56,521 --> 00:03:58,721 Speaker 3: and my team to look into, you can reach out 55 00:03:58,761 --> 00:04:01,121 Speaker 3: to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six 56 00:04:01,161 --> 00:04:05,201 Speaker 3: seven eight seven four four six one four five. That's 57 00:04:05,281 --> 00:04:08,961 Speaker 3: six seven eight seven four four, six one four or five. 58 00:04:09,961 --> 00:05:01,401 Speaker 3: This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Police had responded to 59 00:05:01,401 --> 00:05:04,121 Speaker 3: a murder scene along the shoulder of the road. From 60 00:05:04,201 --> 00:05:08,201 Speaker 3: there things happened fast. The county corner was contacted at 61 00:05:08,201 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 3: seven fifteen am arrangements were made to move Barber's body 62 00:05:12,121 --> 00:05:15,321 Speaker 3: so that it could be tested. At seven twenty one am, 63 00:05:15,521 --> 00:05:18,961 Speaker 3: Sergeant J. C. Brewer arrived on the scene. He noted 64 00:05:18,961 --> 00:05:22,281 Speaker 3: the position of Barber's body. It was facing the west 65 00:05:22,361 --> 00:05:27,361 Speaker 3: side of the road shoulder, her feet were facing the highway. 66 00:05:27,481 --> 00:05:30,601 Speaker 3: She had what appeared to be a large shotgun wound 67 00:05:30,641 --> 00:05:33,601 Speaker 3: to the chest and part of her left hand had 68 00:05:33,601 --> 00:05:38,401 Speaker 3: been shot off. They found casings and shotgun shells scattered around. 69 00:05:38,801 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: They also found buckshot, the casing from Barbara's watch and 70 00:05:43,361 --> 00:05:45,681 Speaker 3: some in her Parts of the watch were found several 71 00:05:45,681 --> 00:05:49,241 Speaker 3: feet away from the body as well. In all, police 72 00:05:49,281 --> 00:05:53,201 Speaker 3: found five shotgun shells and powder dividers, and two separate 73 00:05:53,241 --> 00:05:56,561 Speaker 3: locks of blonde hair. All of the hairs they found 74 00:05:57,001 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 3: were positively identified as Barbara's. Barbara had a large bloodstain 75 00:06:01,801 --> 00:06:05,401 Speaker 3: and brain material under her head. It was obvious that 76 00:06:05,441 --> 00:06:09,641 Speaker 3: these were catastrophic injuries. Police also noticed something else. They 77 00:06:09,761 --> 00:06:12,921 Speaker 3: noticed a ring. It had a black center mounting with 78 00:06:13,041 --> 00:06:17,041 Speaker 3: eight surrounding clear settings. The interesting thing about the ring 79 00:06:17,521 --> 00:06:19,761 Speaker 3: was that it appeared to investigators that it had been 80 00:06:19,801 --> 00:06:23,841 Speaker 3: cut into and peeled open. From the way they describe it, 81 00:06:23,841 --> 00:06:26,801 Speaker 3: it's not totally clear, but it seems like someone used 82 00:06:26,841 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 3: a tool or something to try and remove the ring 83 00:06:29,401 --> 00:06:32,321 Speaker 3: from Barbara's finger, and in the end they couldn't do it. 84 00:06:33,081 --> 00:06:35,241 Speaker 3: I can't be sure because the way the report is 85 00:06:35,281 --> 00:06:38,561 Speaker 3: worded is slightly odd. In my opinion, it makes it 86 00:06:38,601 --> 00:06:41,801 Speaker 3: sound like the center stone may have been missing. Now, 87 00:06:41,841 --> 00:06:45,161 Speaker 3: this would be very interesting because that ring was on 88 00:06:45,561 --> 00:06:48,721 Speaker 3: Barbara's ring finger, the fourth finger of her left hand, 89 00:06:49,161 --> 00:06:52,561 Speaker 3: the finger that's traditionally used for engagement rings and wedding bands. 90 00:06:53,681 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: The body was taken to the Chickisawbu Morgue at the 91 00:06:56,121 --> 00:07:01,241 Speaker 3: request of a coroner, and then the investigation continued. Investigators 92 00:07:01,241 --> 00:07:04,601 Speaker 3: figured out Barbara had been shot at least twice, possibly 93 00:07:04,641 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 3: with a twelve or sixteen gage shotgun, the type of 94 00:07:07,921 --> 00:07:12,561 Speaker 3: shotguns that are used for hunting. Both of these gun sizes, 95 00:07:12,561 --> 00:07:15,081 Speaker 3: by the way, are used for hunting deer and for 96 00:07:15,161 --> 00:07:18,521 Speaker 3: hunting other types of game. The twelve gage is slightly larger, 97 00:07:18,921 --> 00:07:23,721 Speaker 3: but both of these weapons packed serious firepower. Barbara was 98 00:07:23,761 --> 00:07:27,081 Speaker 3: shot at least twice at very close range. From the 99 00:07:27,121 --> 00:07:29,961 Speaker 3: position that she was in. It seemed as though she 100 00:07:30,041 --> 00:07:33,081 Speaker 3: was shot in the chest from behind on the left side. 101 00:07:33,641 --> 00:07:36,881 Speaker 3: This severely damaged her lungs and would have been fatal. 102 00:07:37,601 --> 00:07:40,801 Speaker 3: Then she was shot again. From the description of the 103 00:07:40,801 --> 00:07:44,361 Speaker 3: autopsy report of the powder burns on Barbara's hands and 104 00:07:44,521 --> 00:07:46,601 Speaker 3: the fact that part of her left hand was missing, 105 00:07:47,161 --> 00:07:49,241 Speaker 3: it seems as though she may have had her hand 106 00:07:49,441 --> 00:07:54,001 Speaker 3: near her neck when she was shot. The state medical examiner, 107 00:07:54,081 --> 00:07:57,641 Speaker 3: Dan Cook did find more wounds on Barber's head, but 108 00:07:57,721 --> 00:08:00,121 Speaker 3: he said that they were most likely the result of 109 00:08:00,121 --> 00:08:05,361 Speaker 3: the shotgun pellets rather than direct shots. So when people 110 00:08:05,401 --> 00:08:08,321 Speaker 3: go hunting deer or other animals, they often do it 111 00:08:08,361 --> 00:08:11,401 Speaker 3: with buckshot. That's literally what the ammunition is named for. 112 00:08:11,641 --> 00:08:14,801 Speaker 3: The male deer, the buck. There are several large pellets 113 00:08:14,841 --> 00:08:16,401 Speaker 3: that are packed into a shotgun shell. 114 00:08:16,961 --> 00:08:17,041 Speaker 2: Now. 115 00:08:17,121 --> 00:08:21,841 Speaker 3: According to Field and Stream, buckshot is ideal for quote, 116 00:08:22,161 --> 00:08:26,521 Speaker 3: close ranges inside fifty yards. Buckshot is lethal on thin 117 00:08:26,601 --> 00:08:30,721 Speaker 3: skin targets from bobcats to coyotes, to leopards to people 118 00:08:31,201 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 3: end quote. When you use a shotgun and buckshot, it 119 00:08:37,201 --> 00:08:40,001 Speaker 3: comes out in a burst rather than a single shot. 120 00:08:40,881 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 3: Forensic testing determined that the bullets had entered Barbara's left 121 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,081 Speaker 3: shoulder at a forty five degree angle, so it would 122 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:53,041 Speaker 3: be reasonable for police to consider the possibility Barbara knew 123 00:08:53,081 --> 00:08:56,281 Speaker 3: her killer she was standing there talking to them, then 124 00:08:56,721 --> 00:08:59,761 Speaker 3: she might have turned around to walk away before her 125 00:08:59,841 --> 00:09:04,521 Speaker 3: killer shot her. Remember, she had her purse under her 126 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:09,561 Speaker 3: right arm. Police found a chalky white substance on the 127 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:12,881 Speaker 3: front of Barber's dress, just below her breast. They never 128 00:09:12,961 --> 00:09:15,961 Speaker 3: really explained what that was. Now this is just a 129 00:09:16,001 --> 00:09:18,761 Speaker 3: guest since I'm not a gun expert. I do know 130 00:09:18,841 --> 00:09:22,721 Speaker 3: they use buffering powder inside shotgun shells made of polyethylene, 131 00:09:22,881 --> 00:09:25,281 Speaker 3: so that might have been what it was. It could 132 00:09:25,321 --> 00:09:28,401 Speaker 3: have been something totally different, like a deodorant stain, for example, 133 00:09:28,721 --> 00:09:32,161 Speaker 3: So I can't say for sure, but a buffer powder 134 00:09:32,241 --> 00:09:34,641 Speaker 3: is more likely in my opinion, because the medical report 135 00:09:34,721 --> 00:09:38,561 Speaker 3: did point out one of Barbara's wounds had powder burn. 136 00:09:39,121 --> 00:09:42,321 Speaker 3: What this means is that Barbara's killer shot her at 137 00:09:42,521 --> 00:09:46,801 Speaker 3: very close range. The autopsy also mentioned Barbara was not 138 00:09:46,881 --> 00:09:50,081 Speaker 3: wearing underwear. Now, this could have been a fashion choice, 139 00:09:50,441 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: but we also have to consider the possibility that it 140 00:09:53,161 --> 00:09:56,961 Speaker 3: might have been removed, possibly by the killer, maybe in 141 00:09:57,001 --> 00:10:00,001 Speaker 3: an attempt to camouflage DNA. If the killer had any 142 00:10:00,041 --> 00:10:03,401 Speaker 3: type of sexual encounter with her, either consensual or not, 143 00:10:03,601 --> 00:10:08,281 Speaker 3: before her murder. There were two shots fired, so it 144 00:10:08,321 --> 00:10:10,681 Speaker 3: seems as though either Barbara's killer shot her in the 145 00:10:10,761 --> 00:10:13,801 Speaker 3: back and then turned her over and shot her, or 146 00:10:14,521 --> 00:10:17,121 Speaker 3: shot her and then fired the fatal shot as she 147 00:10:17,161 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 3: tried to run away. Either way, this was an execution 148 00:10:20,921 --> 00:10:23,561 Speaker 3: and it was brutal and judging by the way that 149 00:10:23,601 --> 00:10:25,881 Speaker 3: her killer tried to wrench the ring from her finger, 150 00:10:26,441 --> 00:10:36,281 Speaker 3: this was very personal. Barbara Brian's murder happened in the 151 00:10:36,321 --> 00:10:39,641 Speaker 3: same general area as the murder of Amanda Tussing, the 152 00:10:39,721 --> 00:10:44,001 Speaker 3: case that we discussed in a previous episode. As we mentioned, 153 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: Amanda Tussing was making a forty mile drive from her fiance, 154 00:10:47,321 --> 00:10:51,321 Speaker 3: Matt Irvin's home in Jonesboro to her parents house in Dell, Arkansas. 155 00:10:51,961 --> 00:10:54,641 Speaker 3: It was raining hard that night and Amanda never made 156 00:10:54,681 --> 00:10:58,321 Speaker 3: it home. Her car was found part just off Highway 157 00:10:58,321 --> 00:11:02,161 Speaker 3: eighteen near Monette. Her body was found days later in 158 00:11:02,201 --> 00:11:06,201 Speaker 3: a ditch near Lake City. Like Barbara's, Amanda's murder is 159 00:11:06,201 --> 00:11:09,681 Speaker 3: still unsolved, and even though the causes of death are different, 160 00:11:10,041 --> 00:11:13,361 Speaker 3: Amanda may have been strangled and there were no gunshots involved, 161 00:11:13,641 --> 00:11:18,121 Speaker 3: while Barbara was very obviously fatally shot. There are some similarities. 162 00:11:18,721 --> 00:11:21,721 Speaker 3: Both women were petite, both of their bodies were recovered 163 00:11:21,761 --> 00:11:25,521 Speaker 3: miles away from their cars, and both bodies were found 164 00:11:25,521 --> 00:11:28,841 Speaker 3: in locations that made investigators believe the killer had to 165 00:11:28,921 --> 00:11:31,761 Speaker 3: have a lot of local knowledge. A lot of people 166 00:11:31,761 --> 00:11:33,641 Speaker 3: in this neck of the woods have connected Barbara and 167 00:11:33,681 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 3: Amanda's cases over the years. One of the reasons why 168 00:11:36,801 --> 00:11:39,921 Speaker 3: I was so fascinated by this case is because while 169 00:11:39,921 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: there is a ton of information about Amanda Tossing, there 170 00:11:43,121 --> 00:11:45,801 Speaker 3: is very little information out there about the life of 171 00:11:45,921 --> 00:11:49,881 Speaker 3: Barbara and Armstrong Brian. What we do know is that 172 00:11:49,921 --> 00:11:53,761 Speaker 3: she was born in Caraway, Arkansas, in Craighead County, to 173 00:11:53,921 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 3: Flemen's Skinny Armstrong and Agnes Armstrong. Barbara's dad, Skinny, was 174 00:11:58,681 --> 00:12:01,761 Speaker 3: a farmer. She grew up in a Baptist's household, like 175 00:12:01,801 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 3: a lot of other kids in that region. She had 176 00:12:04,921 --> 00:12:08,401 Speaker 3: a brother named Gary, and again, very much like in 177 00:12:08,441 --> 00:12:12,401 Speaker 3: Amanda Tussing's case, when police found Barbara's purse, it had 178 00:12:12,441 --> 00:12:14,801 Speaker 3: her car, keys and all of her belongings inside it. 179 00:12:15,481 --> 00:12:19,241 Speaker 3: Barbara's nineteen seventy four brown Chevy Nova was parked five 180 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,601 Speaker 3: miles from where her body was found. All of the 181 00:12:21,681 --> 00:12:25,201 Speaker 3: doors were locked. There was no sign of foul play 182 00:12:25,321 --> 00:12:29,841 Speaker 3: inside the vehicle. Police found items inside the car personal 183 00:12:29,881 --> 00:12:33,361 Speaker 3: items of Barbara's that did give investigators a clue about 184 00:12:33,401 --> 00:12:37,601 Speaker 3: her movements right before she went missing. Inside the car, 185 00:12:37,721 --> 00:12:40,201 Speaker 3: on the middle of the front seat, they found a 186 00:12:40,201 --> 00:12:43,521 Speaker 3: white cloth jacket lying on top of a green overnight case. 187 00:12:44,041 --> 00:12:46,281 Speaker 3: Next to the overnight bag, there was an envelope that 188 00:12:46,321 --> 00:12:50,561 Speaker 3: was addressed to Barbara. So the investigator on the case, J. C. Brewer, 189 00:12:50,921 --> 00:12:54,441 Speaker 3: talked to Barbara's closest girlfriend, a woman named Joyce Langston. 190 00:12:55,241 --> 00:12:58,241 Speaker 3: Joyce told police she had been super close to Barbara 191 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,441 Speaker 3: for a long time, but she said she had stopped 192 00:13:01,481 --> 00:13:04,641 Speaker 3: running around with Barbara lately and these are her words 193 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:11,241 Speaker 3: because Barbara was dating married men. Police continued to process 194 00:13:11,321 --> 00:13:14,841 Speaker 3: Barbara Brian's in nineteen seventy four Chevy Nova. They wondered 195 00:13:14,921 --> 00:13:17,401 Speaker 3: about the location of the car versus the location of 196 00:13:17,441 --> 00:13:20,961 Speaker 3: her body. Why, if it was in fact Barbara driving, 197 00:13:21,601 --> 00:13:24,081 Speaker 3: would Barbara park her car and stop there on that 198 00:13:24,121 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 3: deserted strip of road. They took the car to the 199 00:13:26,721 --> 00:13:30,201 Speaker 3: Sheriff's department. Investigators wanted to check out the vehicle's condition. 200 00:13:30,441 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 3: They were thinking, maybe the car broke down, Maybe Barbara 201 00:13:33,841 --> 00:13:36,801 Speaker 3: encountered a stranger, Maybe she stopped to pick someone up 202 00:13:36,841 --> 00:13:39,121 Speaker 3: and he pulled a gun on her, or maybe she 203 00:13:39,161 --> 00:13:41,881 Speaker 3: had someone with her in the car. The car broke down, 204 00:13:41,961 --> 00:13:44,321 Speaker 3: something went wrong and they got into an argument. They 205 00:13:44,321 --> 00:13:47,721 Speaker 3: had to consider all different types of scenarios. They saw 206 00:13:47,841 --> 00:13:50,401 Speaker 3: that the gas gauge showed that the car was empty, 207 00:13:51,201 --> 00:13:53,441 Speaker 3: but that was kind of a red herring because when 208 00:13:53,681 --> 00:13:57,721 Speaker 3: police started the car up, it ran fine. Later they 209 00:13:57,761 --> 00:14:00,401 Speaker 3: figured out the gas gauge itself was broken, but the 210 00:14:00,441 --> 00:14:03,641 Speaker 3: car had plenty of gas in it. In the police 211 00:14:03,681 --> 00:14:07,081 Speaker 3: report noted the vehicle exterior had dew on it, so 212 00:14:07,241 --> 00:14:10,361 Speaker 3: they weren't able to lift latent prints. The vehicle was 213 00:14:10,361 --> 00:14:13,681 Speaker 3: impounded to the Sheriff's department for further processing. But then 214 00:14:14,561 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: I can't find anything more in this report about what 215 00:14:17,081 --> 00:14:21,401 Speaker 3: happened to the car, whether they did take fingerprints. They 216 00:14:21,441 --> 00:14:23,961 Speaker 3: got into her bag. They unzipped the carrier and found 217 00:14:24,001 --> 00:14:26,841 Speaker 3: Barbara's stuff inside. They found a white pair of pants 218 00:14:26,841 --> 00:14:29,841 Speaker 3: and maroon blouse, her makeup, her curling iron, all of 219 00:14:29,841 --> 00:14:31,921 Speaker 3: the stuff that she would need to get ready, as 220 00:14:32,001 --> 00:14:35,561 Speaker 3: well as two small plaster statues and an ankle bracelet. 221 00:14:36,001 --> 00:14:40,681 Speaker 3: They also found photographs of two white men, so police 222 00:14:40,721 --> 00:14:44,681 Speaker 3: got more information from Barbara's girlfriend, Joyce. She looked at 223 00:14:44,681 --> 00:14:47,241 Speaker 3: the photos in Barbara's bag and said that one of 224 00:14:47,281 --> 00:14:50,881 Speaker 3: them was Jerry Shaw. She said that Jerry Shaw and 225 00:14:50,921 --> 00:14:53,201 Speaker 3: Barbara had been dating for several months and that things 226 00:14:53,201 --> 00:14:56,201 Speaker 3: were going well. They found a greeting card inside and 227 00:14:56,241 --> 00:15:00,441 Speaker 3: it was also written by Jerry Shaw. But then Joyce 228 00:15:00,521 --> 00:15:04,321 Speaker 3: told them something shocking. Joyce said that for the past 229 00:15:04,361 --> 00:15:08,281 Speaker 3: several years, Barbara had been dating someone else, a police 230 00:15:08,321 --> 00:15:13,361 Speaker 3: officer named Johnny Williams. Johnny Williams lived in black Oak, 231 00:15:13,921 --> 00:15:17,281 Speaker 3: which was a small town nearby by the way. This 232 00:15:17,481 --> 00:15:20,681 Speaker 3: was very close to the area where Amanda Tussing's body 233 00:15:20,721 --> 00:15:24,361 Speaker 3: was found. Johnny was born in nineteen forty six, so 234 00:15:24,601 --> 00:15:27,641 Speaker 3: by two thousand, when Amanda Tussing was murdered, Johnny would 235 00:15:27,641 --> 00:15:30,161 Speaker 3: have been fifty four years old. He served in the 236 00:15:30,241 --> 00:15:33,161 Speaker 3: Navy in Vietnam and then after that was a police 237 00:15:33,161 --> 00:15:35,921 Speaker 3: officer in black Oak, and he also worked in the 238 00:15:35,921 --> 00:15:39,041 Speaker 3: neighboring county at the Craighead County Sheriff's office. At one 239 00:15:39,121 --> 00:15:42,801 Speaker 3: point he was an Arkansas State trooper. We mentioned that 240 00:15:42,841 --> 00:15:45,921 Speaker 3: he became a suspect and Amanda Tussing's death because of 241 00:15:45,921 --> 00:15:49,321 Speaker 3: his alleged behavior. Apparently he had a habit of following 242 00:15:49,361 --> 00:15:53,961 Speaker 3: single women around in his police cruiser. But in nineteen eighty, 243 00:15:54,161 --> 00:15:57,281 Speaker 3: Johnny Williams would have been thirty four, and now we 244 00:15:57,401 --> 00:16:01,921 Speaker 3: find out that he was dating Barbara. Brian Joyce told 245 00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:05,321 Speaker 3: police that Johnny was not happy about the fact Barbara 246 00:16:05,361 --> 00:16:09,161 Speaker 3: wanted to end things. Joyce told police Barbara had told 247 00:16:09,241 --> 00:16:13,641 Speaker 3: her that Johnny Williams flew into jealous rages. On the 248 00:16:13,721 --> 00:16:16,241 Speaker 3: night Barbara was shot, she had a date with Jerry Shaw. 249 00:16:16,961 --> 00:16:21,081 Speaker 3: Jerry lived in Blible. That's why Barbara had her overnight bag. 250 00:16:21,481 --> 00:16:24,121 Speaker 3: She had her stuff ready for a weekend with her boyfriend. 251 00:16:25,201 --> 00:16:28,841 Speaker 3: Joyce said. Two weeks before Barbara was murdered, Barbara called 252 00:16:28,881 --> 00:16:32,081 Speaker 3: her and told her she had a violent confrontation with Johnny. 253 00:16:32,761 --> 00:16:35,361 Speaker 3: She said she had told Johnny she was dating another man, 254 00:16:35,921 --> 00:16:39,081 Speaker 3: and that Johnny got extremely upset and beat on the 255 00:16:39,161 --> 00:16:42,681 Speaker 3: dash of his car. Barbara told Joyce, according to the 256 00:16:42,681 --> 00:16:47,041 Speaker 3: incident report, that Joe was extremely jealous. Last week, when 257 00:16:47,041 --> 00:16:49,321 Speaker 3: we talked about Amanda Tussing's case, we talked about the 258 00:16:49,321 --> 00:16:53,041 Speaker 3: blue light rapist. The blue light rapist impersonated a police 259 00:16:53,081 --> 00:16:55,761 Speaker 3: officer and committed a string of sexual assaults in this area, 260 00:16:56,241 --> 00:16:58,361 Speaker 3: but of course he had already been arrested and sent 261 00:16:58,401 --> 00:17:02,161 Speaker 3: to prison by the time Amanda disappeared. A lot of 262 00:17:02,161 --> 00:17:06,761 Speaker 3: people at that time talked about the possibility that Amanda 263 00:17:06,801 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: Tussing might have pulled over for a real police officer, 264 00:17:10,041 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 3: and that perhaps a real police officer had been the killer. 265 00:17:14,201 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 3: Johnny Williams worked for the Tyronza Sheriff's Department. Tyron's is 266 00:17:18,201 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: a small town in the northeast part of the state. 267 00:17:20,561 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 3: The population is only around seven hundred people, and there 268 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 3: are not a ton of jobs. A lot of people 269 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 3: who live there commute to larger cities nearby, including Memphis 270 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,761 Speaker 3: and Jonesboro. George Jared, who he worked with on the 271 00:17:32,801 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: Rebecca Gould case from season one of heleng Gon, wrote 272 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,921 Speaker 3: about Amanda Tussing's murder in his book Whispers in the Willows, 273 00:17:39,521 --> 00:17:41,801 Speaker 3: and as part of that we mentioned the theories that 274 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,801 Speaker 3: Johnny Williams might have been involved in Barbara and in 275 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 3: Amanda's murders. It seemed clear from what's out there in 276 00:17:48,121 --> 00:17:52,281 Speaker 3: the public that the police suspected Johnny certainly in Barbara's death, 277 00:17:52,681 --> 00:17:55,881 Speaker 3: but I had a lot of questions. It wasn't clear 278 00:17:55,881 --> 00:17:57,881 Speaker 3: to me how much investigating they did, whether they ever 279 00:17:58,001 --> 00:18:00,721 Speaker 3: questioned him. There was just nothing written in the media 280 00:18:00,761 --> 00:18:04,561 Speaker 3: about it at all. Since Amanda's case is still open, 281 00:18:05,161 --> 00:18:08,601 Speaker 3: police will not release the case file. But I hoped 282 00:18:08,641 --> 00:18:11,481 Speaker 3: if we could get some information on Barber's case, maybe 283 00:18:11,481 --> 00:18:13,961 Speaker 3: we could figure out whether Johnny Williams was a viable 284 00:18:14,001 --> 00:18:18,441 Speaker 3: suspect in her murder or possibly in others. We did 285 00:18:18,481 --> 00:18:20,521 Speaker 3: a Foyer request and we were able to get a 286 00:18:20,521 --> 00:18:23,841 Speaker 3: copy of the incident report on Barbara's death. We got 287 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,761 Speaker 3: that from Mississippi County, Arkansas, and it turns out there 288 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,881 Speaker 3: was a lot more detail on record about Barbara Brin's death, 289 00:18:31,641 --> 00:18:34,721 Speaker 3: enough to make me really question why Johnny Williams was 290 00:18:34,721 --> 00:18:37,801 Speaker 3: never arrested. I'll get back to that in a minute. 291 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,561 Speaker 3: Let's go back to the crime scene. Police were trying 292 00:18:41,561 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: to figure out what Barbara was doing out there on 293 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,401 Speaker 3: that stretch of highway. They were looking for witnesses. Now 294 00:18:47,441 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 3: they knew from Barbara's friend Joyce, that Johnny Williams had 295 00:18:50,441 --> 00:18:53,201 Speaker 3: been dating Barbara. They wanted to find out about his 296 00:18:53,321 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 3: movements on December eleventh and December twelfth, nineteen eighty and 297 00:18:56,681 --> 00:18:59,721 Speaker 3: they pretty quickly found a lead. I have actually never 298 00:18:59,761 --> 00:19:01,961 Speaker 3: seen this happen before in a case that I can remember. 299 00:19:02,521 --> 00:19:04,961 Speaker 3: They got a lot of information from a man named 300 00:19:04,961 --> 00:19:09,081 Speaker 3: Clyde Eldridge. He told police that he would often sleep 301 00:19:09,121 --> 00:19:13,761 Speaker 3: overnight at the Tyronsa Police Department. Now, Johnny Williams also 302 00:19:13,961 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 3: had an office in the Tyrone'sa PD at that time. 303 00:19:17,641 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 3: According to what I've been able to find, he was 304 00:19:20,121 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 3: an Arkansas State Police trooper. Tyronza was in Poinsett County, 305 00:19:24,601 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: not in Mississippi County. So once again we have a 306 00:19:28,601 --> 00:19:32,401 Speaker 3: case that crossed county lines and all the potential complications 307 00:19:32,401 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 3: that that entails. Police were trying to piece together where 308 00:19:36,641 --> 00:19:40,481 Speaker 3: everyone was on the night of December eleventh. Apparently, on 309 00:19:40,641 --> 00:19:44,201 Speaker 3: that night, Clyde Eldridge was sleeping in the iron's A 310 00:19:44,201 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 3: Police station. He told investigators he got to the police 311 00:19:47,921 --> 00:19:51,881 Speaker 3: station at twelve fifteen am. Clyde said that Johnny Williams 312 00:19:51,921 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 3: was there, that Johnny was sitting at his desk at 313 00:19:54,641 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 3: the police department watching TV. Clyde said he sat around 314 00:19:59,161 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 3: and talked to Johnny for a few minutes. Then he 315 00:20:02,121 --> 00:20:05,521 Speaker 3: said he noticed a two tone leather gun case lying 316 00:20:05,561 --> 00:20:08,961 Speaker 3: across Johnny's desk, but Clyde said he didn't really think 317 00:20:09,001 --> 00:20:12,041 Speaker 3: anything about it, and I'm not surprised because it was 318 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,521 Speaker 3: super common to have guns in that neck of the woods. 319 00:20:14,961 --> 00:20:18,201 Speaker 3: Johnny was a hunter like a lot of people. The 320 00:20:18,281 --> 00:20:21,041 Speaker 3: report read quote Clyde had asked Johnny if he had 321 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,441 Speaker 3: been hunting. Johnny stated to Clyde that he had been 322 00:20:23,481 --> 00:20:27,721 Speaker 3: to Brandywine Island. Clyde advised he thought Brandywine Island was closed. 323 00:20:28,121 --> 00:20:30,881 Speaker 3: Johnny Williams stated to him, if you know who to contact, 324 00:20:31,161 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 3: you can go hunting there. End quote. So after they 325 00:20:34,121 --> 00:20:37,881 Speaker 3: discussed Johnny's hunting plans, Clyde said that sometime around one 326 00:20:38,001 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 3: or one fifteen am, Johnny was trying to make a 327 00:20:40,921 --> 00:20:43,761 Speaker 3: phone call from the police department. Clyde said he'd he 328 00:20:43,761 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 3: didn't exactly remember who the call was to, but he 329 00:20:47,001 --> 00:20:49,281 Speaker 3: said that at around one point fifteen am, it did 330 00:20:49,321 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 3: seem like Johnny made contact with the person he was 331 00:20:51,881 --> 00:20:55,161 Speaker 3: trying to call. Clyde said that after that he laid 332 00:20:55,241 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 3: down on the couch in the office. He said he 333 00:20:57,161 --> 00:20:59,721 Speaker 3: went to sleep. Sometime around two or two thirty am, 334 00:21:00,241 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 3: he heard someone leaving the police station. He explained that 335 00:21:03,161 --> 00:21:05,161 Speaker 3: when the front door is unlocked, it wakes him up. 336 00:21:05,561 --> 00:21:07,761 Speaker 3: He stated. He usually wakes up when someone opens the 337 00:21:07,761 --> 00:21:09,401 Speaker 3: door and then gets up to see what they want. 338 00:21:10,241 --> 00:21:12,241 Speaker 3: After he woke up, he walked to the front of 339 00:21:12,281 --> 00:21:15,801 Speaker 3: the police department and looked outside. He noticed Johnny Williams 340 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,481 Speaker 3: was gone. Johnny williams jeep Eagle was not parked in front. 341 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,721 Speaker 3: Clyde said he wasn't exactly sure of the time. He 342 00:21:22,761 --> 00:21:25,001 Speaker 3: went back to sleep, and the next thing he remembered 343 00:21:25,001 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 3: was at four forty five am when the police chief, 344 00:21:27,761 --> 00:21:31,161 Speaker 3: Floyd White, came into the police department and woke him up. 345 00:21:32,721 --> 00:21:36,321 Speaker 3: This is almost like a movie about smalltown police, complete 346 00:21:36,321 --> 00:21:38,801 Speaker 3: with people admitting to sleeping on their jobs at night 347 00:21:39,361 --> 00:21:45,481 Speaker 3: and people crashing in the police station. Evidently, police were 348 00:21:45,601 --> 00:21:49,201 Speaker 3: very suspicious of Johnny Williams, because on the very next day, 349 00:21:49,201 --> 00:21:52,961 Speaker 3: in December thirteenth of nineteen eighty, Johnny Williams was interrogated. 350 00:21:53,721 --> 00:21:56,921 Speaker 3: Investigators gave him a lie detector test. The investigator's name 351 00:21:56,961 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 3: was George Stewart. They administered the polygraph at the Mississippi 352 00:22:00,441 --> 00:22:05,521 Speaker 3: County Sheriff's Department. The lie detector examiner said Johnny Williams 353 00:22:05,561 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 3: had been deceptive which means investigators concluded that Johnny Williams 354 00:22:09,961 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: lied during that test. Again, I think we have to 355 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: be very careful about putting too much faith into light detectors. 356 00:22:16,241 --> 00:22:18,761 Speaker 3: We've talked about that a lot on this podcast. We 357 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,441 Speaker 3: know they're dependent on the skill of the person administering them. Also, 358 00:22:22,801 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 3: there's a good reason why they're not admissible in court. 359 00:22:25,801 --> 00:22:29,201 Speaker 3: But I do think it's really interesting that immediately the police, 360 00:22:29,201 --> 00:22:31,961 Speaker 3: who sometimes people criticized for protecting one of their own, 361 00:22:32,361 --> 00:22:35,721 Speaker 3: were suspicious of another officer, they do not hesitate to 362 00:22:35,761 --> 00:22:40,841 Speaker 3: polygraph him. So this brings us to December fourteenth. Barbara 363 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,401 Speaker 3: Bryan's body has been found. Johnny Williams, she's been dating 364 00:22:44,401 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: on and off for three years, is immediately pretty much 365 00:22:47,201 --> 00:22:52,201 Speaker 3: a prime suspect. On December fourteenth, they informed Johnny Williams 366 00:22:52,201 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 3: that he had failed the light detector test, and he 367 00:22:54,161 --> 00:22:58,001 Speaker 3: agreed to take a second test. This time it was 368 00:22:58,001 --> 00:23:01,721 Speaker 3: administered by the Arkansas State Police, and once again Johnny 369 00:23:01,761 --> 00:23:05,921 Speaker 3: Williams failed that polygraph test, So now he's zero for two. 370 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,201 Speaker 3: Police found other officers who had seen Johnny Williams that night. 371 00:23:11,601 --> 00:23:14,921 Speaker 3: They found a man named James Miles, a police officer 372 00:23:15,001 --> 00:23:18,361 Speaker 3: in Leponto. He said he saw Johnny at around two 373 00:23:18,401 --> 00:23:21,201 Speaker 3: thirty am on the morning of December twelfth. He said 374 00:23:21,241 --> 00:23:23,561 Speaker 3: Johnny was traveling north on Highway one forty and one 375 00:23:23,601 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 3: thirty five. He saw Johnny driving his Jeep Eagle. He 376 00:23:28,441 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 3: recognized Johnny and he recognized the car. He said he 377 00:23:31,921 --> 00:23:34,521 Speaker 3: did not see him again during his shift, which ended 378 00:23:34,521 --> 00:23:39,241 Speaker 3: at three am. Investigators pulled the desklog from the Tyronsa 379 00:23:39,241 --> 00:23:42,441 Speaker 3: Police department from the night of December twelfth, nineteen eighty. 380 00:23:43,921 --> 00:23:48,041 Speaker 3: They searched Johnny Williams Gep Eagle in the back seat 381 00:23:48,161 --> 00:23:50,721 Speaker 3: on the left armrest. There was a small piece of 382 00:23:50,761 --> 00:23:54,201 Speaker 3: reddish orange string entangled in the carpeting. This was entered 383 00:23:54,241 --> 00:23:58,441 Speaker 3: into evidence and cataloged. Investigators also found a pair of 384 00:23:58,481 --> 00:24:02,041 Speaker 3: green hip boots and a pair of camouflage coveralls on 385 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 3: the back floorboard. There was a rust colored vest in 386 00:24:05,161 --> 00:24:07,841 Speaker 3: the back of the car too that had several Western 387 00:24:07,961 --> 00:24:11,281 Speaker 3: number six shotgun shells inside it, as well as a 388 00:24:11,281 --> 00:24:16,561 Speaker 3: plastic container of rifle cartridges. They had found Johnny Williams 389 00:24:16,681 --> 00:24:27,601 Speaker 3: hunting gear. Immediately after Barbara Bryne's body was found. According 390 00:24:27,601 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: to the incident report, police identified the man she had 391 00:24:31,241 --> 00:24:35,041 Speaker 3: been dating a police officer named Johnny Williams as a suspect. 392 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,401 Speaker 3: He admitted that he had been in the Tyronza, Arkansas area, 393 00:24:39,481 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 3: in the early morning hours of December twelfth. He said 394 00:24:43,241 --> 00:24:46,201 Speaker 3: that the chief of Police, Floyd White, could verify this. 395 00:24:46,801 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 3: The problem with that was Chief White told police that 396 00:24:50,001 --> 00:24:52,201 Speaker 3: he had seen Johnny between the hours of four thirty 397 00:24:52,201 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 3: and five am, but not before that. Floyd White said 398 00:24:57,201 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 3: that he came back to the police station at around 399 00:24:59,121 --> 00:25:01,841 Speaker 3: seven am that morning. He said by that time Johnny 400 00:25:01,881 --> 00:25:04,841 Speaker 3: was gone, but his jeep was still parked in the lot. 401 00:25:05,801 --> 00:25:08,761 Speaker 3: Then Floyd said he left again and came back a 402 00:25:08,761 --> 00:25:11,641 Speaker 3: second time at eight thirty am. He said by that time, 403 00:25:11,681 --> 00:25:16,481 Speaker 3: both Johnny and his vehicle were gone. Floyd said that 404 00:25:16,561 --> 00:25:19,641 Speaker 3: Johnny did carry a gun, a separate gun, presumably from 405 00:25:19,641 --> 00:25:23,921 Speaker 3: a service revolver, in a brown carrying case. Johnny admitted 406 00:25:23,961 --> 00:25:30,201 Speaker 3: that was his dear rifle. Police interviewed Johnny. They asked 407 00:25:30,241 --> 00:25:33,281 Speaker 3: him about Barbara's death, and he openly admitted he knew 408 00:25:33,321 --> 00:25:35,721 Speaker 3: that because he had dated Barbara that police considered him 409 00:25:35,721 --> 00:25:39,081 Speaker 3: a suspect in the case, But Johnny completely denied having 410 00:25:39,161 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 3: anything to do with her death. He said he had 411 00:25:41,401 --> 00:25:43,561 Speaker 3: a close relationship with her. He said they had d 412 00:25:44,001 --> 00:25:45,801 Speaker 3: for three years and that at one point they were 413 00:25:45,921 --> 00:25:49,321 Speaker 3: very serious. He said he knew she was seeing Jerry Shaw. 414 00:25:49,801 --> 00:25:51,681 Speaker 3: He knew she had a date with Jerry on the 415 00:25:51,721 --> 00:25:56,681 Speaker 3: night she disappeared. Johnny said that on Thursday night he 416 00:25:56,721 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: went to Barbara's home, and he said that's when he 417 00:25:58,881 --> 00:26:01,721 Speaker 3: found out she had a Friday night date with Jerry. 418 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,601 Speaker 3: He said that on that Thursday evening, prior to the homicide, 419 00:26:04,761 --> 00:26:07,241 Speaker 3: he had gone to Barbara's house in an attempt to 420 00:26:07,321 --> 00:26:10,001 Speaker 3: catch her coming in from work. He said he wanted 421 00:26:10,001 --> 00:26:12,561 Speaker 3: to talk about their relationship, but he said he couldn't 422 00:26:12,601 --> 00:26:15,241 Speaker 3: find Barbara, so he kept looking for her throughout the night. 423 00:26:15,721 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 3: But his story was that he'd never connected with Barbara. 424 00:26:19,761 --> 00:26:22,281 Speaker 3: This seems to conflict with him telling officers that he 425 00:26:22,361 --> 00:26:24,721 Speaker 3: found out about the date with Jerry on Thursday night. 426 00:26:25,641 --> 00:26:27,561 Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure what the story there is if 427 00:26:27,601 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: he's mixing up Thursday night and Friday night, but it 428 00:26:30,121 --> 00:26:32,801 Speaker 3: doesn't seem to make any sense. However, he does not 429 00:26:32,881 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 3: get called on it. Police were very suspicious of Johnny. 430 00:26:38,201 --> 00:26:41,041 Speaker 3: He was jealous. He was seen driving around in the 431 00:26:41,041 --> 00:26:44,241 Speaker 3: early morning hours of December twelfth. He admits that he 432 00:26:44,481 --> 00:26:47,961 Speaker 3: was in Laponto, the town where Barbara lived, at two 433 00:26:48,001 --> 00:26:51,241 Speaker 3: thirty am Friday morning, looking for Barbara. You also have 434 00:26:51,281 --> 00:26:55,121 Speaker 3: an officer from Laponto saying that he saw Johnny driving 435 00:26:55,201 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 3: on Highway one forty in that area, and Johnny had 436 00:26:59,601 --> 00:27:04,281 Speaker 3: an alibi another woman who apparently came to the police 437 00:27:04,281 --> 00:27:07,201 Speaker 3: department and picked him up. He said that he spent 438 00:27:07,241 --> 00:27:09,641 Speaker 3: the rest of the night with this other woman. This 439 00:27:09,801 --> 00:27:13,281 Speaker 3: other woman's name was Gay Couch, and eventually Gay Couch 440 00:27:13,361 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 3: became Gay Williams. She and Johnny Williams got married. We 441 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,201 Speaker 3: requested an officer fitness report on Johnny Williams and it 442 00:27:22,241 --> 00:27:26,561 Speaker 3: came back clean. There is no suggestion that Gay knew anything, 443 00:27:26,601 --> 00:27:29,041 Speaker 3: by the way, and even if for argument's sake, she 444 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,881 Speaker 3: did suspect something, because they were married, she probably could 445 00:27:32,881 --> 00:27:36,001 Speaker 3: not be forced to testify against her own husband. There's 446 00:27:36,121 --> 00:27:38,961 Speaker 3: nothing on Johnny Williams record, at least publicly, that would 447 00:27:38,961 --> 00:27:43,241 Speaker 3: alert anyone to his fellow officers suspicions about him. Eventually, 448 00:27:43,321 --> 00:27:46,521 Speaker 3: Johnny Williams got cancer. He was sick for several years, 449 00:27:46,881 --> 00:27:49,801 Speaker 3: fought back, but then a few months later he developed 450 00:27:49,801 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 3: heart problems. He died in twenty ten. He was sixty 451 00:27:53,401 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 3: three years old. In George Jared's book Whispers in the Willows, 452 00:27:58,881 --> 00:28:02,201 Speaker 3: George mentions that he heard that on his deathbed, Johnny 453 00:28:02,241 --> 00:28:06,201 Speaker 3: was questioned again about Amanda Tussing's murder, but denied having 454 00:28:06,241 --> 00:28:09,961 Speaker 3: anything to do with it. After he left law enforcement, 455 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,121 Speaker 3: Johnny founded a company called Williams Trucking Company. And by 456 00:28:13,161 --> 00:28:15,961 Speaker 3: the way, there are rumors Johnny was fired from law enforcement, 457 00:28:16,321 --> 00:28:19,361 Speaker 3: but I can't find any official record of that. As 458 00:28:19,401 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 3: we know from this podcast, there are a lot of 459 00:28:21,881 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 3: instances where departments choose to quietly allow an officer to 460 00:28:26,921 --> 00:28:28,641 Speaker 3: leave on his own terms so they can avoid the 461 00:28:28,681 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 3: bad publicity. But to me, it's terrifying that these members 462 00:28:32,121 --> 00:28:35,521 Speaker 3: of law enforcement, who have such an enormous amount of power, 463 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,081 Speaker 3: are out driving around and the public is completely unaware 464 00:28:40,281 --> 00:28:43,601 Speaker 3: of any of these pretty terrifying suspicions that there fell 465 00:28:43,881 --> 00:28:51,521 Speaker 3: officers have about them. Johnny and Gay eventually had children. 466 00:28:52,001 --> 00:28:54,841 Speaker 3: They were still married when he died. From what I 467 00:28:54,881 --> 00:28:57,801 Speaker 3: can find in public records, it seems as though Barbara 468 00:28:57,841 --> 00:29:01,321 Speaker 3: Brian's parents and her brother Gary have all passed away. 469 00:29:01,961 --> 00:29:04,921 Speaker 3: So what are we left with? Because there seemed to 470 00:29:05,001 --> 00:29:07,361 Speaker 3: be a lot of missing pieces in this case file. 471 00:29:07,961 --> 00:29:10,481 Speaker 3: For example, I never saw any mention of testing those 472 00:29:10,521 --> 00:29:13,801 Speaker 3: fingerprints from the car again. I never found any interviews 473 00:29:13,801 --> 00:29:17,521 Speaker 3: with Jerry Shaw, the man Barbara was dating. It seems 474 00:29:17,601 --> 00:29:21,801 Speaker 3: like everyone kind of forgot about Barbara's case, but we haven't. 475 00:29:22,241 --> 00:29:24,641 Speaker 3: I want to see if we can uncover more information 476 00:29:25,241 --> 00:29:28,641 Speaker 3: about these police officers who may have thought their secrets 477 00:29:28,641 --> 00:29:32,921 Speaker 3: were buried forever. Barbara Brian, Amanda Tussing and all the 478 00:29:32,961 --> 00:29:35,841 Speaker 3: other victims whose bodies were found along random strips of 479 00:29:35,961 --> 00:29:41,441 Speaker 3: Arkansas roads deserve that. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen 480 00:29:41,481 --> 00:29:47,761 Speaker 3: Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production 481 00:29:47,841 --> 00:29:50,801 Speaker 3: of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and 482 00:29:50,881 --> 00:29:54,241 Speaker 3: narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts 483 00:29:54,241 --> 00:29:58,561 Speaker 3: and Miranda Hawkins. Music contributed by Ben Solee. Special thanks 484 00:29:58,561 --> 00:30:01,881 Speaker 3: to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance. Noah Camer mixed 485 00:30:01,921 --> 00:30:06,561 Speaker 3: and scored this episode. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, 486 00:30:06,561 --> 00:30:09,481 Speaker 3: and Elsie Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone ad free by 487 00:30:09,521 --> 00:30:12,961 Speaker 3: subscribing to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts. 488 00:30:13,241 --> 00:30:15,801 Speaker 3: You can follow the show on Instagram at Helen Gone Pod. 489 00:30:16,561 --> 00:30:18,241 Speaker 3: If you have a case you'd like me and my 490 00:30:18,281 --> 00:30:20,481 Speaker 3: team to look into, you can reach out to us 491 00:30:20,521 --> 00:30:23,161 Speaker 3: at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight 492 00:30:23,241 --> 00:30:26,681 Speaker 3: seven four four six one four five. That's six seven 493 00:30:26,721 --> 00:30:29,081 Speaker 3: eight seven four four six' one four. 494 00:30:29,201 --> 00:30:38,601 Speaker 1: Five school Of humans