WEBVTT - Abortion, Every Day with Cindi Leive and Jessica Valenti 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.600 Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Couric and this is next question. 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:14.120 This episode today, with less than a month to the election, 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.520 is all about abortion because it's playing such an important 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.680 role in the campaign and the minds of many voters. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.040 My plus one today is Cindy Levy, who is a 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.400 longtime friend of mine. Cindy, thank you for doing this. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.560 I'm so happy to be here. Katie and I thought 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.000 we should tell our listeners a little bit and some 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.800 viewers a little bit about how we know each other 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.879 because we've known each other gosh for a couple of 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:42.920 decades now, right, so. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.839 The one hundred and fifty two years is the official 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:47.080 count on our friendship. 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.320 But how do we know each other? Tell everyone? 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.840 Well, I think we first met probably I'm really going 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.760 to date us in the nineteen nineties. I was an 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.840 assistant editor at Glamour and you were honored as a 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.520 Glamour Woman of the Year, and I remember you just 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:11.120 being so brilliant on that stage and just so charming 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:16.120 and intellectually inquisitive, and I just had like such a 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.520 friend crush on you. And then we kept in touch 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.480 through that and there was like even a period I 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:23.959 don't even know if you remember this. You remember the 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:25.280 column that you wrote for Glamour. 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:26.480 I was like, to do there. 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:28.160 Yeah, it was really great. 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.600 I interviewed Michelle Obama for that column. 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:35.040 Actually, I remember it was incredible. You went to went 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:36.720 to the White House and it was in her first 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:38.600 year I want to say it was like two thousand 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.399 and nine, so her first year in the White House, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.240 and she just gave like a great and warm and 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.320 frank interview. And it was in those first days where 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:50.680 we were kind of like, oh my god, like, you know, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.120 this is what the White House can be. 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.040 Well, I always have admired Glamour magazine from the days 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:01.520 of Ruth Whitney. That really dates me because Glamor magazine 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.480 always had a point of view politically and they weren't 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.840 afraid to weigh into some of these thorny social issues. 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:10.639 Cindy of course went on to become editor in chief 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.760 and do an amazing job at Glamour, and now she 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.680 has a media company called The Meteor, which really focuses 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.680 on reproductive rights. Correct Cindy, It. 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.720 Focuses on all kinds of content having to do with 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.000 social change for women, girls, non binary people. We had 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.040 our first ideas meeting in Gloria Steinem's living room, and 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.000 she said, this is where MS magazine was made back 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:38.280 in the seventies. So what is that for today? And yeah, 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.560 it's been there's certainly a lot to cover and we're 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.680 doing a lot in the run up to the election, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:48.320 and especially, as you say, around reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:49.560 which matters so much right now. 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.880 Well, you're the perfect person to help me interview our 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.440 guest today, Jessica Valenti. She is a fierce feminist writer 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.400 I know, a good friend of yours, and she's been 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.839 shaking things up for years. She's the author of bestsellers 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.240 like The Purity Myth and Sex Object. But she's also 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.560 the creator of a newsletter called Abortion every Day. That's right. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.600 It comes out every day, people, and it's a wonderful 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.080 guide for people who want to know what's going on 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:23.600 with reproductive rights in this country. So she's constantly challenging 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.680 the status quo, getting people to think, and she's got 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.120 a new book out called Abortion, Our Bodies, Their Lives, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:35.120 and the Truths We use to win. Jessica, welcome, thank 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.360 you for having me, and this is going to be 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.160 so much fun. Well, gosh, it's actually I don't know 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.400 if you can say abortion and fun in the same sentence, 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.000 but it's going to be so interesting and I think 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.640 so important. Let's start with your book, and you don't 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.640 shy away from the A word. Tell us about the 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:59.440 culture's fraught relationship with the actual word abortion and why 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.440 you put it front and center in this book. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.920 You know, I think it's really interesting abortion in the 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:10.320 word abortion specifically has been treated like this third rail issue, 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.520 like this really controversial, polarizing issue, when the truth is 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:19.279 that American's overwhelmingly support abortion rights, have overwhelmingly supported abortion 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.880 rights for decades, and so we've sort of bought into 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.120 this myth that the issue itself is controversial when it's not. 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.640 And so it was really important to me in the 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.720 book to sort of take this very rank, candid, unapologetic 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.400 view of not just abortion and the issues that are 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.520 happening around it right now, especially, but the way we 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:40.200 talk about it. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.000 Cindy, I know, as someone involved in magazines, you've been 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.760 covering this issue for a long time. Talk to us 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:51.679 how as an editor this topic has been fought for 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.279 you and for readers in general. 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:59.159 Well, it's so interesting because as Jessica says, there's been 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:04.160 this impression that abortion is this taboo subject, when in 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.960 reality it's an incredibly common healthcare procedure that one in 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.680 four women in this country has chosen or had to 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.479 have in some cases. And I remember when I was 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.359 a kid in the nineteen eighties seeing on the cover 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:25.640 of People magazine Ali McGraw, the actress who had been 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.560 in Love Story in the seventies, very popular, with a 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:33.000 cover line saying my abortion story or words to that effect, 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:35.360 with you know, as you say the A word. And 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:40.120 this was People Magazine, very mainstream publication. But by the 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:45.040 time I was, you know, certainly writing, and definitely by 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.680 the time I was the editor of Glamour, there had 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:52.120 been this kind of chill over talking about abortion. It 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.200 had gone from being something that you know, was maybe 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.960 not totally out in the open, but also not completely taboo. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.960 I don't think People magazine got ripped off the news 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.440 stands back then to being something where, you know, if 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.680 you were an editor you wanted to write about abortion, 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:07.680 and your publisher would probably be like, oh, we're never 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:09.760 going to get an advertiser to go anywhere near that. 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.800 Can't you do something more cheerful. And the reality is, 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.760 you know, when we did cover those issues, as we 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:20.080 did often at Glamour, those stories were incredibly well read. Right, 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:24.599 People wanted information about those procedures. They wanted to see 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.560 other women who were going through the same things that 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:31.159 they were, and they wanted to feel normal. This is 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:33.560 a normal procedure. And the fact that it was being 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.400 talked about in hutch tones throughout a lot of the 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:41.440 you know oos and early teens didn't do anyone any good. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.480 Yeah, even in the eighties and nineties, Cindy and Jessica. 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.400 What happened was it Ronald Reagan and the moral majority 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.920 that suddenly put a chill on these conversations because I've 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.040 read about Ali McGraw too, and it's really weird that 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.240 you can't get more mainstream than People Magazine. Jessica. Did 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:01.400 things change and why? 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:06.000 I think it really was sort of the eighties and 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.880 this backlash to the incredible abortion rights movement that led 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.240 to row And it does feel like whenever women have 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.760 a huge step forward, there's a tremendous cultural backlash that follows. Right, 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.280 We've seen it with women in the workplace, and then 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.440 all of these myths about daycares, and we saw it 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:27.560 with abortion, but I think that period lasted for a 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.080 really long time. It feels like it really did last 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.160 until the end of Row, when people started talking a 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:38.080 lot more unapologetically about abortion, beyond just abortion rights activists 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:41.120 who had been talking and thinking about abortion in this 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.400 way for a long time. It really did take the 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.360 end of Row for people to understand how common this was, 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.840 how important it was to so many people, how angry 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:55.240 voters were about the bands, and so just watching that 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.760 shift over the last two years has been pretty remarkable. 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.160 And seeing all of the people who are coming out 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.480 to share their abortion stories and that they feel so 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:05.840 much more comfortable to do that now, I think is 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:06.680 pretty incredible. 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.680 I will just add that I think it was seeing 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.720 that it's possible that this rate could get stripped away 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.440 that did motivate a lot of people, including myself. I'd 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.720 spent a lot of years covering abortion as the editor 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.120 of Glamour, and I never talked about the fact that 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.000 I had had an abortion when I was a freshman 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.160 in college. That was absolutely something I've never regretted and 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.400 really important for me being able to chart the course 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:33.680 of the rest of my life but you know, I 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.160 would give speeches about abortion. I'd always talk about this 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.600 older female relative of mine who had chosen it. And 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.120 that was true, but it wasn't the whole truth. And honestly, 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.920 it was in twenty eighteen when Justice Kennedy announced his 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.800 retirement and you started hearing people, probably you were among them, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.760 just saying, you know, we could lose the right to 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.560 legal abortion in this country. And I thought, what am 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.280 I doing not talking about this? Like if I can 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:03.720 help normalized this in any way by just saying, you know, 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.439 I've made this choice, and so many women I know have, 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.160 then why aren't I doing that? So I think the 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.280 danger kind of prompted the openness. 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.439 Were you scared after you wrote that? It was in 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.200 the New York Times, It was an op ed in 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:21.440 twenty eighteen. You wrote, as usual, really moving story Cindy 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:26.400 about chasing this guy and having unprotected sex after drinking 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.160 too much. I mean, it was sort of a very. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.440 Really yeah, had to pull that detail, sorry, but it 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.920 was a very familiar story, you know, for somebody in college, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.840 and you know you talked about your decision. 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.040 Did you get much backlash? Did you get much hate 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:41.440 after you wrote that? Column. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.320 I didn't. I mean, I got you know, you can't 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.319 write about these subjects, and I would never even complain 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.920 in front of jess who just gets such hateful stuff 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.480 all the time and has written very eloquently about online hate. 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.439 But no, I mean, the vast majority of comments I 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:01.040 got were thank you for writing this. Me too, I've 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:05.319 had this experience as well. I got letters from people 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.120 who mothers and grandmothers who said they were going to 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.800 sit down and tell their children about abortions that they 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.160 had never had, which I think is really important because 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.440 especially because there's this sort of stereotype of people who 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.440 have had abortions as being like unmotherly, when the truth 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.200 is most women who have abortions I wasn't in this category, 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.560 but most women who have abortions already have at least 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:27.800 one child, and I think it's really important for children 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.080 to understand this as part of like how mothers chart 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.959 their course in life. And so No, the vast majority 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.120 of comments I got were just like love and gratitude, 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.520 and if anything, I felt a little ashamed that I 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:42.920 hadn't written it sooner. 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.480 And Jessica, you were very honest about your own abortion 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:47.680 when you were twenty eight. 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.760 Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I was just thinking 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:55.160 as Cindy was talking about her abortion. I've had two abortions, 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.040 and the one I talked about first and talked about 0:10:58.080 --> 0:10:59.800 most was one that I had when my daughter was 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.520 three because the pregnancy was putting my life at risk. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:05.680 I got very ill with my daughter with something called 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.679 help syndrome, and she was born three months early. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:10.280 I nearly died, she nearly died. 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.439 It was terrible, and doctors told me, if you get 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.720 pregnant again, chances are this is going to happen again, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.200 and it'll be even more dangerous. And so it was 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.240 a very it was a sad decision because I wanted 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.000 to have another child, but a clear cut one because 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.040 I didn't want to put my life at risk and 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.760 leave my daughter without a mother. And that was always 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.439 the abortion I talked about, and I didn't really talk 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.840 about the one when I was twenty eight because it 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.760 didn't have that sort of I don't know, it didn't 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:40.360 feel as important, which I think is really interesting and troubling. 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.079 Even as a feminist writer, I had sort of internalized 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.319 that stigma, right. But the abortion that I had when 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.120 I was twenty eight led me to the life that 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.920 I have now. Three months later I met my husband. 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.960 Three years after that, we had our daughter. And so 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.120 it was that abortion that really helped me to build 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.959 my life, build my family, builds my career. But still 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.880 I have that internal stigma still going on. 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.920 What you're talking about, Jess makes me think of the 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.720 piece that was in the New York Times last weekend 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.079 by the woman who was writing about how she had 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.680 had two abortions, and one of them was one of these, 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:20.320 as you would say, like good abortions where she was 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.679 even though it's anything but good to the person who's 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.640 going through it, where she had a a health complication, 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.320 pregnancy complication, had to end a very wanted pregnancy under 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.240 difficult circumstances, and those are the kinds of stories that 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.360 we're hearing now after the fall of Row. But she 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:39.240 also had an abortion earlier when she was a single 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.960 mother and simply could not imagine raising another child, And 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.120 both of those abortions are equally valid. And I think 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.280 all the stories that are coming out now of women 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.600 being turned away from hospitals going into sepsis because they're 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:57.199 having complications with very wanted pregnancies are incredibly important stories 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.400 to tell, and you're telling them literally every day. But 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:05.199 the stories of abortions that were chosen simply because a 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.480 woman didn't want to be pregnant are valid as well. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.080 You know, it is interesting, Jessica, isn't it that we 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.640 kind of rate them like this was not so much 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.920 a good abortion, but this was an understandable abortion. But 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.200 this was a selfish abortion. 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.680 Right, And that's of course really deliberate, and that's what 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.680 conservatives and the anti abortion movement have set out to 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.320 make happen for a really long time. And it made 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.280 me think about I wrote about this at the Newsletter 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.559 a little bit Kamala Harris's speech in Georgia after two 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.200 women were killed by the abortion band there, and how 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:41.120 important it was that she talked about Amber Nicole Thurman's 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.400 life and her abortion in this very normalizing way where 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.080 she said she had a plan, she was going to 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.560 nursing school, she had gotten this apartment, she had a 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.440 plan for her life and it was her plan. And 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.400 then she got pregnant, she didn't want to be and 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.840 she had an abortion, and just talking about it in 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:02.320 this way, which seems sort of unremarkable, was actually quite 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.199 radical for a politician to talk about abortion in this 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.920 very normalizing way, and it made me realize how much 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.800 progress we really have made when it comes to stigma 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:13.320 and the culture. 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.240 Well, it's no coincidence that you took a woman to 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:18.560 talk about it in a normal way, because in the 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.560 State of the Union earlier this year, President Biden skipped 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.280 over the word abortion in his prepared remarks and replaced 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.320 it using phrases like reproductive freedom or freedom to choose. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.760 And I think that it has taken a woman to 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:37.400 talk honestly, in a forthright manner and just say abortion. 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.360 It's also because the media has treated abortion as a 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.000 political issue. If you look at studies on where and 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.920 how abortion was covered in newspapers, for instance, and digital 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.280 outlets over the last ten years, it was overwhelmingly in 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.120 the political sections, and the people who were quoted were 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.680 overwhelmingly politicians as opposed to doctors, and definitely as opposed 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.560 to actual humans who had chosen abortions. So if we 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.360 think of this as, like, you know, a political thing, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.120 as opposed to a healthcare decision, it's partly because it's 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:14.440 been covered that way. 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:20.800 If you want to get smarter every morning with a 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.120 breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.480 wellness and pop culture. Sign up for our daily newsletter, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:40.080 Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Well, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.680 let's talk about abortion every day, because this is a newsletter. Jessica, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:49.200 you started after Roe was overturned, and you've written about 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.320 abortion for about two years now or over two years. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.720 Can you set the table for us and just tell 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.320 us kind of what has happened in this country since 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.480 the overturning of Row, because honestly, it's hard to follow 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.840 state by state and every legislature what's happening and all 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.920 these different referenda that we see surfacing all over the 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.560 country unless you're Jessica Valenti. 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.280 I mean, this is what's so hard about it, and 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.680 this is why I started the newsletter, because the attacks 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.640 are so unrelenting. There really is something new every single day, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.800 and so I'm just trying the best I can to 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.640 provide a little bit of border to that chaos. I 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.800 think we've seen a lot happen. We've seen the rise 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.080 of pro choice ballot measures, which has been incredible, and 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:35.760 we've seen that when people get a direct say on 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.760 abortion rights that they overwhelmingly choose to protect abortion rights. 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:41.480 We've seen the horror stories. 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.600 I think that is the thing that sticks out to 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.200 people the most, is just story after story of people 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.560 being denied here. But then the other thing that I'm 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.880 trying to make sure to cover the newsletter that doesn't 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.520 get quite as much media attention is the ripple effects 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.040 that we're seeing right the doctors, the obgims leaving anti 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.720 abortion states, the maternal health care deserts that that then 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.440 causes in these counties, that increase in maternal death rates, 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:13.560 that increase in infant death rates. Abortion really is one 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.719 of those issues that touches every single thing, and I 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.360 think over the last two years that's what we're starting 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.800 to see. And then the other thing I've covered quite 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:24.760 a lot that I think is really important, especially as 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.879 we get so close to the election, is anti abortion 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:32.080 is strategy and conservative messaging around abortion, and the way, 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.560 as overused as a word as gaslighting, is the way 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.840 that they have gaslt voters and Americans into believing that 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.399 the consequences of abortion bands are not as bad as 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.800 we can see they are every single day. And that 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.560 is something that I'm just really really determined to make sure, 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.640 little light stays shined on there. 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.359 It's amazing to me how many people feel comfortable with 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:01.200 Republican messaging of leaving it to the states. That seems 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:05.760 to be the fallback position, Like, what's wrong with leaving 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.280 it to the states? Can you explain what's wrong with 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:09.480 leaving it to the states? 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:14.040 Jessica, Yeah, absolutely, it's a really interesting it's leave it 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.080 to the states. And the will of the people is 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.520 the other term that they're using a lot, And what 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.240 I find so interesting about that is that they're using 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.879 that specifically to make it seem as if this is 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:30.240 a people powered voter decision abortion bands right, because in truth, 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.320 vast majority of voters do not like abortion bands. They 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.080 want abortion to be legal, and we're talking about a 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.320 small group of extremist legislators imposing their will on the 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.080 vast majority of voters. And so it's really important for 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.280 Republicans to frame this as something that is up to the. 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.159 People, as if everyone's voting on it, as. 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.119 If everyone's voting on it, and of course, when people 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.400 are trying to vote on it, like in the ten 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.679 states where we're going to see in November that have 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:01.720 ballot measures about abortion rights, Republicans are trying every single 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.480 dirty trick in the book to stop voters from having 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.600 a say, to get those issues off the ballot, to 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:12.040 remove voters from the roles, to trick voters about what 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:16.080 the ballot measure says. And so it really is quite 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.359 an obscene line to say that this is an issue 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.560 that they've given back to the people, when in fact 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.800 they have worked so incredibly hard to make sure that 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.360 voters cannot touch abortion rights. 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.679 I'm going to just go deeply geeky for a second, 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.240 but Jessica, as the author of Abortion every Day the newsletter, 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.159 you definitely appreciate a good abortion geek out. The states 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:44.920 with the highest levels of jerrymandering, which is the redistricting 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:49.840 of usually legislative districts so that one party can protect 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.200 its edge even if people in the state have beliefs 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.720 that are different. The states with the highest levels of 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.640 jerrymandering were also some of the quickest to pass abortion 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.639 bands after the fall of Row. And so this idea 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:03.520 that like, we're just going to hand it back to 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.399 the states and everything will be fine, Well, if voting 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.880 is not fair in those states, you know, then then 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.720 it really doesn't work. I realized that nothing makes people 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.600 go to sleep faster than saying the word jerry mandering. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.920 So I will conclude by a side, but it really 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.000 is so important, No, it's so important. 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.399 It is so important, so important. 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.520 Yeah, Like I feel like there was this moment also 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.440 after the fall of Roe, when all of a sudden, 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.080 you know, people were calling me and I'm sure Katie 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.960 you were hearing this from your readers and viewers too, 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.679 and saying like, how can this be? Everybody I know 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.479 feels that this should be the law of the land. 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.920 And similar to gun issues, you know, the vast majority 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.879 of people in poll after poll after poll believe that 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.919 there should be, you know, some common sense measures to 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.639 try to reduce the levels of gun violence in this country, 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:57.359 and yet our laws don't say that. 0:20:57.480 --> 0:20:58.000 Why is that? 0:20:58.080 --> 0:20:59.919 And it kind of has been this like crash core 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.080 in democracy for so many of us. 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.840 People have become so invested in why they can't vote 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.480 on this issue. In states where there are no citizen 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.280 led ballot initiatives, people are suddenly who have never thought 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.040 about ballot initiatives before in their life are asking, well, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.960 why can't I vote on this? Right? There is this 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:24.840 real interest in activism, activeness around abortion and democracy now. 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.520 I think, which is adding, I think to the gender gap. 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.160 But let's get back to the way the Republicans are 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:35.439 framing this conversation, because I think they're doing it pretty 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:39.640 effectively in some ways. For example, at the recent vice 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.639 presidential debate, jd Vance said the following. 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.520 First of all, I never supported a national ban. 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:47.480 I did during what I was running for Senate in 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.560 twenty twenty two, talk about setting some men in a 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.399 national standard. For example, we have a partial birth abortion 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.639