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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Couric and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: This episode today, with less than a month to the election,

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Speaker 1: is all about abortion because it's playing such an important

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Speaker 1: role in the campaign and the minds of many voters.

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Speaker 1: My plus one today is Cindy Levy, who is a

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Speaker 1: longtime friend of mine. Cindy, thank you for doing this.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be here. Katie and I thought

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Speaker 1: we should tell our listeners a little bit and some

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Speaker 1: viewers a little bit about how we know each other

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Speaker 1: because we've known each other gosh for a couple of

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Speaker 1: decades now, right, so.

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Speaker 2: The one hundred and fifty two years is the official

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Speaker 2: count on our friendship.

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Speaker 1: But how do we know each other? Tell everyone?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we first met probably I'm really going

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Speaker 2: to date us in the nineteen nineties. I was an

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Speaker 2: assistant editor at Glamour and you were honored as a

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Speaker 2: Glamour Woman of the Year, and I remember you just

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Speaker 2: being so brilliant on that stage and just so charming

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Speaker 2: and intellectually inquisitive, and I just had like such a

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Speaker 2: friend crush on you. And then we kept in touch

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Speaker 2: through that and there was like even a period I

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Speaker 2: don't even know if you remember this. You remember the

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Speaker 2: column that you wrote for Glamour.

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Speaker 1: I was like, to do there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really great.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Michelle Obama for that column.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I remember it was incredible. You went to went

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Speaker 2: to the White House and it was in her first

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Speaker 2: year I want to say it was like two thousand

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Speaker 2: and nine, so her first year in the White House,

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Speaker 2: and she just gave like a great and warm and

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Speaker 2: frank interview. And it was in those first days where

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Speaker 2: we were kind of like, oh my god, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is what the White House can be.

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Speaker 1: Well, I always have admired Glamour magazine from the days

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Speaker 1: of Ruth Whitney. That really dates me because Glamor magazine

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Speaker 1: always had a point of view politically and they weren't

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Speaker 1: afraid to weigh into some of these thorny social issues.

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Speaker 1: Cindy of course went on to become editor in chief

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Speaker 1: and do an amazing job at Glamour, and now she

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Speaker 1: has a media company called The Meteor, which really focuses

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Speaker 1: on reproductive rights. Correct Cindy, It.

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Speaker 2: Focuses on all kinds of content having to do with

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Speaker 2: social change for women, girls, non binary people. We had

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Speaker 2: our first ideas meeting in Gloria Steinem's living room, and

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Speaker 2: she said, this is where MS magazine was made back

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Speaker 2: in the seventies. So what is that for today? And yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's been there's certainly a lot to cover and we're

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Speaker 2: doing a lot in the run up to the election,

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Speaker 2: and especially, as you say, around reproductive rights and bodily autonomy,

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Speaker 2: which matters so much right now.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're the perfect person to help me interview our

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Speaker 1: guest today, Jessica Valenti. She is a fierce feminist writer

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Speaker 1: I know, a good friend of yours, and she's been

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Speaker 1: shaking things up for years. She's the author of bestsellers

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Speaker 1: like The Purity Myth and Sex Object. But she's also

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Speaker 1: the creator of a newsletter called Abortion every Day. That's right.

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Speaker 1: It comes out every day, people, and it's a wonderful

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Speaker 1: guide for people who want to know what's going on

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Speaker 1: with reproductive rights in this country. So she's constantly challenging

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Speaker 1: the status quo, getting people to think, and she's got

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Speaker 1: a new book out called Abortion, Our Bodies, Their Lives,

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Speaker 1: and the Truths We use to win. Jessica, welcome, thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me, and this is going to be

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Speaker 1: so much fun. Well, gosh, it's actually I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you can say abortion and fun in the same sentence,

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Speaker 1: but it's going to be so interesting and I think

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Speaker 1: so important. Let's start with your book, and you don't

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Speaker 1: shy away from the A word. Tell us about the

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Speaker 1: culture's fraught relationship with the actual word abortion and why

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Speaker 1: you put it front and center in this book.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think it's really interesting abortion in the

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Speaker 3: word abortion specifically has been treated like this third rail issue,

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Speaker 3: like this really controversial, polarizing issue, when the truth is

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Speaker 3: that American's overwhelmingly support abortion rights, have overwhelmingly supported abortion

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Speaker 3: rights for decades, and so we've sort of bought into

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Speaker 3: this myth that the issue itself is controversial when it's not.

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Speaker 3: And so it was really important to me in the

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Speaker 3: book to sort of take this very rank, candid, unapologetic

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Speaker 3: view of not just abortion and the issues that are

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Speaker 3: happening around it right now, especially, but the way we

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Speaker 3: talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Cindy, I know, as someone involved in magazines, you've been

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Speaker 1: covering this issue for a long time. Talk to us

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Speaker 1: how as an editor this topic has been fought for

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Speaker 1: you and for readers in general.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's so interesting because as Jessica says, there's been

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Speaker 2: this impression that abortion is this taboo subject, when in

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Speaker 2: reality it's an incredibly common healthcare procedure that one in

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Speaker 2: four women in this country has chosen or had to

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Speaker 2: have in some cases. And I remember when I was

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Speaker 2: a kid in the nineteen eighties seeing on the cover

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Speaker 2: of People magazine Ali McGraw, the actress who had been

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Speaker 2: in Love Story in the seventies, very popular, with a

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Speaker 2: cover line saying my abortion story or words to that effect,

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Speaker 2: with you know, as you say the A word. And

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Speaker 2: this was People Magazine, very mainstream publication. But by the

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Speaker 2: time I was, you know, certainly writing, and definitely by

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Speaker 2: the time I was the editor of Glamour, there had

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Speaker 2: been this kind of chill over talking about abortion. It

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Speaker 2: had gone from being something that you know, was maybe

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Speaker 2: not totally out in the open, but also not completely taboo.

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Speaker 2: I don't think People magazine got ripped off the news

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Speaker 2: stands back then to being something where, you know, if

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Speaker 2: you were an editor you wanted to write about abortion,

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Speaker 2: and your publisher would probably be like, oh, we're never

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Speaker 2: going to get an advertiser to go anywhere near that.

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Speaker 2: Can't you do something more cheerful. And the reality is,

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Speaker 2: you know, when we did cover those issues, as we

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Speaker 2: did often at Glamour, those stories were incredibly well read. Right,

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Speaker 2: People wanted information about those procedures. They wanted to see

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Speaker 2: other women who were going through the same things that

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Speaker 2: they were, and they wanted to feel normal. This is

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Speaker 2: a normal procedure. And the fact that it was being

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Speaker 2: talked about in hutch tones throughout a lot of the

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Speaker 2: you know oos and early teens didn't do anyone any good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, even in the eighties and nineties, Cindy and Jessica.

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Speaker 1: What happened was it Ronald Reagan and the moral majority

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Speaker 1: that suddenly put a chill on these conversations because I've

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Speaker 1: read about Ali McGraw too, and it's really weird that

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Speaker 1: you can't get more mainstream than People Magazine. Jessica. Did

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Speaker 1: things change and why?

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Speaker 3: I think it really was sort of the eighties and

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Speaker 3: this backlash to the incredible abortion rights movement that led

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Speaker 3: to row And it does feel like whenever women have

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Speaker 3: a huge step forward, there's a tremendous cultural backlash that follows. Right,

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Speaker 3: We've seen it with women in the workplace, and then

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Speaker 3: all of these myths about daycares, and we saw it

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Speaker 3: with abortion, but I think that period lasted for a

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Speaker 3: really long time. It feels like it really did last

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Speaker 3: until the end of Row, when people started talking a

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Speaker 3: lot more unapologetically about abortion, beyond just abortion rights activists

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Speaker 3: who had been talking and thinking about abortion in this

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Speaker 3: way for a long time. It really did take the

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Speaker 3: end of Row for people to understand how common this was,

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Speaker 3: how important it was to so many people, how angry

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Speaker 3: voters were about the bands, and so just watching that

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Speaker 3: shift over the last two years has been pretty remarkable.

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Speaker 3: And seeing all of the people who are coming out

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Speaker 3: to share their abortion stories and that they feel so

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Speaker 3: much more comfortable to do that now, I think is

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Speaker 3: pretty incredible.

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Speaker 2: I will just add that I think it was seeing

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Speaker 2: that it's possible that this rate could get stripped away

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Speaker 2: that did motivate a lot of people, including myself. I'd

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of years covering abortion as the editor

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Speaker 2: of Glamour, and I never talked about the fact that

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Speaker 2: I had had an abortion when I was a freshman

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Speaker 2: in college. That was absolutely something I've never regretted and

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Speaker 2: really important for me being able to chart the course

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Speaker 2: of the rest of my life but you know, I

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Speaker 2: would give speeches about abortion. I'd always talk about this

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Speaker 2: older female relative of mine who had chosen it. And

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Speaker 2: that was true, but it wasn't the whole truth. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: it was in twenty eighteen when Justice Kennedy announced his

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Speaker 2: retirement and you started hearing people, probably you were among them,

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Speaker 2: just saying, you know, we could lose the right to

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Speaker 2: legal abortion in this country. And I thought, what am

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Speaker 2: I doing not talking about this? Like if I can

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Speaker 2: help normalized this in any way by just saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've made this choice, and so many women I know have,

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Speaker 2: then why aren't I doing that? So I think the

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Speaker 2: danger kind of prompted the openness.

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Speaker 1: Were you scared after you wrote that? It was in

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, It was an op ed in

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. You wrote, as usual, really moving story Cindy

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Speaker 1: about chasing this guy and having unprotected sex after drinking

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Speaker 1: too much. I mean, it was sort of a very.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah, had to pull that detail, sorry, but it

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Speaker 2: was a very familiar story, you know, for somebody in college,

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Speaker 2: and you know you talked about your decision.

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Speaker 1: Did you get much backlash? Did you get much hate

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Speaker 1: after you wrote that? Column.

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I mean, I got you know, you can't

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Speaker 2: write about these subjects, and I would never even complain

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Speaker 2: in front of jess who just gets such hateful stuff

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Speaker 2: all the time and has written very eloquently about online hate.

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Speaker 2: But no, I mean, the vast majority of comments I

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Speaker 2: got were thank you for writing this. Me too, I've

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Speaker 2: had this experience as well. I got letters from people

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Speaker 2: who mothers and grandmothers who said they were going to

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Speaker 2: sit down and tell their children about abortions that they

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Speaker 2: had never had, which I think is really important because

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Speaker 2: especially because there's this sort of stereotype of people who

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Speaker 2: have had abortions as being like unmotherly, when the truth

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Speaker 2: is most women who have abortions I wasn't in this category,

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Speaker 2: but most women who have abortions already have at least

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Speaker 2: one child, and I think it's really important for children

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Speaker 2: to understand this as part of like how mothers chart

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Speaker 2: their course in life. And so No, the vast majority

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Speaker 2: of comments I got were just like love and gratitude,

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Speaker 2: and if anything, I felt a little ashamed that I

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Speaker 2: hadn't written it sooner.

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Speaker 1: And Jessica, you were very honest about your own abortion

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Speaker 1: when you were twenty eight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I was just thinking

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Speaker 3: as Cindy was talking about her abortion. I've had two abortions,

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Speaker 3: and the one I talked about first and talked about

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Speaker 3: most was one that I had when my daughter was

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Speaker 3: three because the pregnancy was putting my life at risk.

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Speaker 3: I got very ill with my daughter with something called

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Speaker 3: help syndrome, and she was born three months early.

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Speaker 4: I nearly died, she nearly died.

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Speaker 3: It was terrible, and doctors told me, if you get

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Speaker 3: pregnant again, chances are this is going to happen again,

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Speaker 3: and it'll be even more dangerous. And so it was

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Speaker 3: a very it was a sad decision because I wanted

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Speaker 3: to have another child, but a clear cut one because

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to put my life at risk and

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Speaker 3: leave my daughter without a mother. And that was always

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Speaker 3: the abortion I talked about, and I didn't really talk

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Speaker 3: about the one when I was twenty eight because it

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Speaker 3: didn't have that sort of I don't know, it didn't

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Speaker 3: feel as important, which I think is really interesting and troubling.

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Speaker 3: Even as a feminist writer, I had sort of internalized

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Speaker 3: that stigma, right. But the abortion that I had when

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Speaker 3: I was twenty eight led me to the life that

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Speaker 3: I have now. Three months later I met my husband.

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Speaker 3: Three years after that, we had our daughter. And so

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Speaker 3: it was that abortion that really helped me to build

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Speaker 3: my life, build my family, builds my career. But still

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Speaker 3: I have that internal stigma still going on.

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Speaker 2: What you're talking about, Jess makes me think of the

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Speaker 2: piece that was in the New York Times last weekend

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Speaker 2: by the woman who was writing about how she had

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Speaker 2: had two abortions, and one of them was one of these,

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Speaker 2: as you would say, like good abortions where she was

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Speaker 2: even though it's anything but good to the person who's

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Speaker 2: going through it, where she had a a health complication,

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Speaker 2: pregnancy complication, had to end a very wanted pregnancy under

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Speaker 2: difficult circumstances, and those are the kinds of stories that

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Speaker 2: we're hearing now after the fall of Row. But she

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Speaker 2: also had an abortion earlier when she was a single

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Speaker 2: mother and simply could not imagine raising another child, And

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Speaker 2: both of those abortions are equally valid. And I think

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Speaker 2: all the stories that are coming out now of women

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Speaker 2: being turned away from hospitals going into sepsis because they're

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Speaker 2: having complications with very wanted pregnancies are incredibly important stories

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Speaker 2: to tell, and you're telling them literally every day. But

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Speaker 2: the stories of abortions that were chosen simply because a

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Speaker 2: woman didn't want to be pregnant are valid as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, it is interesting, Jessica, isn't it that we

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Speaker 1: kind of rate them like this was not so much

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Speaker 1: a good abortion, but this was an understandable abortion. But

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Speaker 1: this was a selfish abortion.

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Speaker 3: Right, And that's of course really deliberate, and that's what

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Speaker 3: conservatives and the anti abortion movement have set out to

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Speaker 3: make happen for a really long time. And it made

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Speaker 3: me think about I wrote about this at the Newsletter

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Speaker 3: a little bit Kamala Harris's speech in Georgia after two

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Speaker 3: women were killed by the abortion band there, and how

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Speaker 3: important it was that she talked about Amber Nicole Thurman's

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Speaker 3: life and her abortion in this very normalizing way where

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Speaker 3: she said she had a plan, she was going to

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Speaker 3: nursing school, she had gotten this apartment, she had a

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Speaker 3: plan for her life and it was her plan. And

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Speaker 3: then she got pregnant, she didn't want to be and

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Speaker 3: she had an abortion, and just talking about it in

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Speaker 3: this way, which seems sort of unremarkable, was actually quite

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Speaker 3: radical for a politician to talk about abortion in this

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Speaker 3: very normalizing way, and it made me realize how much

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Speaker 3: progress we really have made when it comes to stigma

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Speaker 3: and the culture.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's no coincidence that you took a woman to

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Speaker 1: talk about it in a normal way, because in the

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Speaker 1: State of the Union earlier this year, President Biden skipped

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Speaker 1: over the word abortion in his prepared remarks and replaced

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Speaker 1: it using phrases like reproductive freedom or freedom to choose.

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Speaker 1: And I think that it has taken a woman to

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Speaker 1: talk honestly, in a forthright manner and just say abortion.

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Speaker 2: It's also because the media has treated abortion as a

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Speaker 2: political issue. If you look at studies on where and

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Speaker 2: how abortion was covered in newspapers, for instance, and digital

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Speaker 2: outlets over the last ten years, it was overwhelmingly in

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Speaker 2: the political sections, and the people who were quoted were

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Speaker 2: overwhelmingly politicians as opposed to doctors, and definitely as opposed

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Speaker 2: to actual humans who had chosen abortions. So if we

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Speaker 2: think of this as, like, you know, a political thing,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to a healthcare decision, it's partly because it's

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Speaker 2: been covered that way.

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Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

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Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

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Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture. Sign up for our daily newsletter,

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Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about abortion every day, because this is a newsletter. Jessica,

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Speaker 1: you started after Roe was overturned, and you've written about

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Speaker 1: abortion for about two years now or over two years.

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Speaker 1: Can you set the table for us and just tell

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Speaker 1: us kind of what has happened in this country since

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Speaker 1: the overturning of Row, because honestly, it's hard to follow

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Speaker 1: state by state and every legislature what's happening and all

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Speaker 1: these different referenda that we see surfacing all over the

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Speaker 1: country unless you're Jessica Valenti.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is what's so hard about it, and

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Speaker 3: this is why I started the newsletter, because the attacks

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Speaker 3: are so unrelenting. There really is something new every single day,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm just trying the best I can to

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Speaker 3: provide a little bit of border to that chaos. I

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Speaker 3: think we've seen a lot happen. We've seen the rise

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Speaker 3: of pro choice ballot measures, which has been incredible, and

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Speaker 3: we've seen that when people get a direct say on

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Speaker 3: abortion rights that they overwhelmingly choose to protect abortion rights.

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Speaker 4: We've seen the horror stories.

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Speaker 3: I think that is the thing that sticks out to

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Speaker 3: people the most, is just story after story of people

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Speaker 3: being denied here. But then the other thing that I'm

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Speaker 3: trying to make sure to cover the newsletter that doesn't

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Speaker 3: get quite as much media attention is the ripple effects

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Speaker 3: that we're seeing right the doctors, the obgims leaving anti

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Speaker 3: abortion states, the maternal health care deserts that that then

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Speaker 3: causes in these counties, that increase in maternal death rates,

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Speaker 3: that increase in infant death rates. Abortion really is one

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Speaker 3: of those issues that touches every single thing, and I

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Speaker 3: think over the last two years that's what we're starting

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Speaker 3: to see. And then the other thing I've covered quite

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Speaker 3: a lot that I think is really important, especially as

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Speaker 3: we get so close to the election, is anti abortion

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Speaker 3: is strategy and conservative messaging around abortion, and the way,

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Speaker 3: as overused as a word as gaslighting, is the way

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Speaker 3: that they have gaslt voters and Americans into believing that

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Speaker 3: the consequences of abortion bands are not as bad as

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Speaker 3: we can see they are every single day. And that

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Speaker 3: is something that I'm just really really determined to make sure,

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Speaker 3: little light stays shined on there.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing to me how many people feel comfortable with

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Speaker 1: Republican messaging of leaving it to the states. That seems

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Speaker 1: to be the fallback position, Like, what's wrong with leaving

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Speaker 1: it to the states? Can you explain what's wrong with

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Speaker 1: leaving it to the states?

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Speaker 3: Jessica, Yeah, absolutely, it's a really interesting it's leave it

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Speaker 3: to the states. And the will of the people is

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Speaker 3: the other term that they're using a lot, And what

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Speaker 3: I find so interesting about that is that they're using

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Speaker 3: that specifically to make it seem as if this is

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Speaker 3: a people powered voter decision abortion bands right, because in truth,

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Speaker 3: vast majority of voters do not like abortion bands. They

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Speaker 3: want abortion to be legal, and we're talking about a

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Speaker 3: small group of extremist legislators imposing their will on the

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Speaker 3: vast majority of voters. And so it's really important for

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Speaker 3: Republicans to frame this as something that is up to the.

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Speaker 1: People, as if everyone's voting on it, as.

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Speaker 3: If everyone's voting on it, and of course, when people

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Speaker 3: are trying to vote on it, like in the ten

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Speaker 3: states where we're going to see in November that have

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Speaker 3: ballot measures about abortion rights, Republicans are trying every single

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Speaker 3: dirty trick in the book to stop voters from having

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Speaker 3: a say, to get those issues off the ballot, to

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Speaker 3: remove voters from the roles, to trick voters about what

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Speaker 3: the ballot measure says. And so it really is quite

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Speaker 3: an obscene line to say that this is an issue

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Speaker 3: that they've given back to the people, when in fact

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Speaker 3: they have worked so incredibly hard to make sure that

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Speaker 3: voters cannot touch abortion rights.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to just go deeply geeky for a second,

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Speaker 2: but Jessica, as the author of Abortion every Day the newsletter,

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Speaker 2: you definitely appreciate a good abortion geek out. The states

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Speaker 2: with the highest levels of jerrymandering, which is the redistricting

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Speaker 2: of usually legislative districts so that one party can protect

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Speaker 2: its edge even if people in the state have beliefs

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Speaker 2: that are different. The states with the highest levels of

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Speaker 2: jerrymandering were also some of the quickest to pass abortion

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Speaker 2: bands after the fall of Row. And so this idea

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Speaker 2: that like, we're just going to hand it back to

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Speaker 2: the states and everything will be fine, Well, if voting

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Speaker 2: is not fair in those states, you know, then then

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Speaker 2: it really doesn't work. I realized that nothing makes people

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Speaker 2: go to sleep faster than saying the word jerry mandering.

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Speaker 2: So I will conclude by a side, but it really

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Speaker 2: is so important, No, it's so important.

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Speaker 1: It is so important, so important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I feel like there was this moment also

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Speaker 2: after the fall of Roe, when all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: you know, people were calling me and I'm sure Katie

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Speaker 2: you were hearing this from your readers and viewers too,

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Speaker 2: and saying like, how can this be? Everybody I know

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Speaker 2: feels that this should be the law of the land.

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Speaker 2: And similar to gun issues, you know, the vast majority

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Speaker 2: of people in poll after poll after poll believe that

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Speaker 2: there should be, you know, some common sense measures to

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Speaker 2: try to reduce the levels of gun violence in this country,

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Speaker 2: and yet our laws don't say that.

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Speaker 4: Why is that?

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Speaker 2: And it kind of has been this like crash core

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Speaker 2: in democracy for so many of us.

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Speaker 3: People have become so invested in why they can't vote

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Speaker 3: on this issue. In states where there are no citizen

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Speaker 3: led ballot initiatives, people are suddenly who have never thought

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Speaker 3: about ballot initiatives before in their life are asking, well,

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Speaker 3: why can't I vote on this? Right? There is this

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Speaker 3: real interest in activism, activeness around abortion and democracy now.

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Speaker 1: I think, which is adding, I think to the gender gap.

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Speaker 1: But let's get back to the way the Republicans are

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Speaker 1: framing this conversation, because I think they're doing it pretty

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Speaker 1: effectively in some ways. For example, at the recent vice

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Speaker 1: presidential debate, jd Vance said the following.

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Speaker 4: First of all, I never supported a national ban.

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Speaker 5: I did during what I was running for Senate in

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty two, talk about setting some men in a

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Speaker 5: national standard. For example, we have a partial birth abortion

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Speaker 5: ban in this in place in this country at the

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Speaker 5: federal level. I don't think anybody's trying to get rid

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Speaker 5: of that, or at least I hope not, though I

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Speaker 5: know that Democrats have taken a very radical pro abortion stance.

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Speaker 4: But Nora, you know, one of the thing that's that

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Speaker 4: changed is in the.

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Speaker 5: State of Ohio, we had a referendum in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 5: and the people of Ohio voted overwhelmingly, by the way

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Speaker 5: against my position.

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Speaker 1: Jess, what did you think of jd Vance's comments during

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Speaker 1: the vice presidential debate? So confusing that one undecided voter

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Speaker 1: said she was surprised at how progressive he sounded on

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Speaker 1: women's issues.

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Speaker 3: I jumped out of my seat. I'm surprised you guys

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Speaker 3: couldn't hear me yelling from Brooklyn. I was so I mean,

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Speaker 3: I knew that that line was coming. I had been

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Speaker 3: predicting and writing about this line. National minimum standard, minimum

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Speaker 3: national standard for a very long time. I was so frustrated.

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Speaker 3: People don't know that those are the same thing. An

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Speaker 3: abortion band and a minimum national standard are the same

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Speaker 3: exact thing.

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Speaker 1: Explain.

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Speaker 4: So what Republicans have.

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Speaker 3: Done, what the anti abortion movement has done, is internally

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Speaker 3: redefine ban. They say that ban only refers to a

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Speaker 3: prohibition on abortion with zero exceptions, not even for women's lives.

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Speaker 3: And so under that definition, there are no abortion bans

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Speaker 3: in America. But something like what we would consider an

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Speaker 3: abortion ban, like what Lindsey Graham has been pushing, a

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Speaker 3: fifteen week ban with rape and incest exceptions. They're saying

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Speaker 3: that's a national minimum standard or a federal restriction. Right,

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Speaker 3: So they're deliberately skewing what the word ban means so

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Speaker 3: that voters are completely confused and that they don't understand that.

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Speaker 3: When Trump says, oh, yeah, I would veto a national

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Speaker 3: abortion ban, what he's really saying is I would veto

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Speaker 3: a total prohibition on abortion with zero exceptions. But Republicans

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Speaker 3: aren't proposing that. Republicans are proposing twelve week bans, fifteen

438
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 3: week bans, the things that they are calling restrictions and standards.

439
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 3: And it's been so frustrating to watch sort of mainstream

440
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 3: media outlets not pick up on this. Ask the Trump

441
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 3: campaign what is a federal standard? What is the national minimum?

442
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: National standard? So I've just been really harping on this

443
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 3: one for ast time.

444
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: Literally when he said that during the debate, I was like,

445
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: just called it because you've had you had done a

446
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: video about exactly exactly that.

447
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: Well, can I ask a devil advocates question to both

448
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 1: of you all? So I get people's frustration and anger

449
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: at like a six week ban, right because oftentimes women

450
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: don't know they're pregnant, right, and that is just sort

451
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: of impossible, and don't be mad at me, ladies, But

452
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 1: a fifteen week ban, so that is somebody who is

453
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: almost four months pregnant, right, Why is that problematic? Because

454
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people support abortion, and even

455
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: Roe V. Wade has a stipulation about the third trimester.

456
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: Now that's much later than this fifteen week ban. But

457
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: why is that not acceptable? And help me understand why

458
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 1: this is wrong.

459
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 3: I mean, I think you can come at it from

460
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 3: two different ways, Like there's the ethical and then there's

461
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 3: the logistical political. From an ethical point of view, you

462
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: don't lose bodily integrity at a certain point, right, you

463
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 3: don't stop being a human being at twelve weeks of

464
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: pregnancy or fifteen weeks of pregnancy. You should always have

465
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 3: to say over your own body and what is happening

466
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 3: to you. And so from that point, I'm just all

467
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 3: on board with that. Ethically, from a sort of real

468
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: life point of view, a lot of people won't know

469
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 3: they're pregnant. A lot of people don't have access to

470
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: great healthcare, sex education. I mean, this is one of

471
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 3: the things that's really so frustrating about a lot of

472
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 3: Republican policies is that they're passing these abortion bands and saying, well,

473
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 3: someone should know they're pregnant by then, But then they're

474
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 3: getting rid of sex education and they're getting rid of

475
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: birth control, right, And so if you're creating a world

476
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 3: where people don't have access to birth control, they don't

477
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 3: know anything about their bodies, they don't have affordable health

478
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: caare you're making it very, very difficult. And then of

479
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 3: course all of these hurdles. Let's say you say, okay,

480
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 3: well abortion is legal at fifteen weeks, but up until

481
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: then you need to have a waiting period and you

482
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 3: need to travel out of your county. Well, how many

483
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 3: people can afford to take two days off of work

484
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: and get child care right? And so it all sort

485
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 3: of combines into this big hot mess that I think

486
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: makes it just politically ontonable as well as ethically.

487
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 2: I guess I also just think about, you know, what

488
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: is real and what is imagined? Like I do think

489
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: that anti abortion folks have done a really good job

490
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: of making us picture that woman, usually hypothetical, who's like

491
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: terminating her pregnancy at thirty weeks, thirty two weeks just

492
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: because she doesn't feel like having a baby, and that's

493
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: a terrible thing to imagine. But that feels very imaginary

494
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: to me. And what's real are these real human women

495
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: who are coming forward. Like Amanda Zerowski in Texas.

496
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 6: I was eighteen weeks pregnant and on August twenty third,

497
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 6: I went for a walk and I could tell that

498
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 6: something was wrong. I messaged my ob She discovered that

499
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 6: I have or had something called an incompetent cervix, which

500
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 6: basically means that I had dilated obviously way too early,

501
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 6: and so she informed me that miscarriage was inevitable.

502
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: Both of us.

503
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 5: Wondered, like, if this is inevitable, what's the next thing

504
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 5: for us?

505
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: What is our next course for healthcare?

506
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 6: We asked our doctor, and we asked the MFM. We

507
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 6: asked all the nurses, you know, isn't there something you

508
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 6: can do? And they said no, I couldn't make the

509
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 6: decision for myself. We couldn't make the decision.

510
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: For our daughter.

511
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 6: Our doctors couldn't make the decision. I mean, they were

512
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 6: just as furious as we were because their hands were

513
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 6: hide I mean, had they acted, they would have been

514
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 6: charged with a felony.

515
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: Tell us about Amanda's story, Cindy.

516
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: So Amanda for those who don't know, and at the

517
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: Metia where we had the honor of helping her tell

518
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: her story for the first time. Back in the fall

519
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty two, she was eighteen weeks pregnant. She

520
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: was in a situation that now has become very familiar

521
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: to us. But she was one of the first to

522
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: come forward wanted pregnancy, and she and her husband Josh

523
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: got the terrible news that something had gone wrong. She

524
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: was feeling terribly. She went to the hospital and they

525
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: basically told her, your baby's not going to make it,

526
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: but you are not sick enough yet to have this termination,

527
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: and so they sent her home, and to no one's surprise,

528
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: she developed sepsist spiked a fever, was feeling terrible, ended

529
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: up losing the baby, of course, but additionally in the ICU,

530
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: really afraid for her own life.

531
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: Why did they tell her she couldn't get the abortion

532
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: then and there.

533
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: Because it wasn't clear that she herself was going to die.

534
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: And I think what happens in these situations, and we've

535
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: seen this again and again, is that individual doctors in

536
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: a state like Texas, like Alabama, where you have these

537
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: attorney generals who are just making their names and making

538
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: their careers on prosecuting doctors, prosecuting anybody they see as

539
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: trying to aid in a bet and abortion, it's very

540
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: very hard for an individual doctor to go up against that.

541
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: And so you're talking about lawyers on a hospital's review board.

542
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: It's a complicated process. And by the way, when people say,

543
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: why don't individual doctors just take this on and do

544
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: these abortions themselves if they're this upset about not being

545
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: able to help women, you can't do that, not in

546
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: a hospital setting, not in twenty twenty four. So I

547
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: think you know the important thing, getting back to your question, Katie,

548
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: is that a woman like Amanda who almost lost her

549
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: life and now doesn't know whether she's going to be

550
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: able to have a child again because of the way

551
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: her fertility was compromised, because of how long this was

552
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: allowed to go on, She's a real woman, and I

553
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: would put her life and the life of so many

554
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: other women like Kate Cox and Nancy Davis. I would

555
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: weigh those above this imaginary person who's supposedly making these

556
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: very selfish late term choices.

557
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: Another way, this whole conversation, Jessica has been framed is,

558
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: and we've heard it again and again from the Republicans,

559
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: is this whole idea of abortion after birth, which of

560
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: course conjures up these terrifying images for people who feel

561
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the idea of a quote unquote late term abortion,

562
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: which is also not really a thing. Can you talk

563
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: about that because I don't feel that the Democrats have

564
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: explained that Kamala Harris didn't respond to like do you

565
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: favor any restrictions during the debate, and I think people

566
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: are left with this image that really distorts the whole issue.

567
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that?

568
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 4: Yeah?

569
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 3: And I think it's what Cindy said right, like, it's

570
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: not based in reality. We're not talking about real people there.

571
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 3: And the post birth abortion message has been just infuriating

572
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 3: to watch takeoff, and it's been really scary because I've

573
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 3: seen it make an impact, you know, I'm trying to

574
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: pay attention to forums and seeing what people are talking about,

575
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: and it is making an impact. People do believe that

576
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: doctors are executing babies a week after birth. It's really

577
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: really terrible. But what Democrats have an opportunity to do

578
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: is to tell voters what they're actually talking about when

579
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: they say post birth abortion, and what they're actually talking about.

580
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 3: The laws they're actually talking about are palliative care for

581
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 3: fatally ill newborns. So if a baby is born too

582
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: early to survive, if a newborn has a fatal condition

583
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: and they're only going to live for a few hours,

584
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 3: parents can make the decision to decline painful, medically invasive procedures,

585
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: have a few moments alone with their child. You know,

586
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 3: the nurse will set up a private room in the

587
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: nick use so they can say goodbye while the baby

588
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: passes away. That is what they're calling post birth abortion.

589
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: That's what these laws, that's who these laws protect, and

590
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: that's what they're calling post birth abortion. And it's so important.

591
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: I think that Democrats are making that clear to voters

592
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: that in fact, what the talking about is a really important,

593
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: vital service to parents who are greeting and dealing with

594
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: an awful, terrible, tragic situation.

595
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: They're not really doing a very good job of talking

596
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: about that is that because they're afraid the imagery is

597
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: just too painful. But it's so critically important, it's so important.

598
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 3: I think that there has just been this fear for

599
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 3: so long to talk about abortion later in pregnancy, and

600
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: I think they feel like if they even go into

601
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: that conversation just a little bit, that they're going to

602
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 3: be dragged into it. But I actually do think that

603
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: I've said this quite a lot. I think it's one

604
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: of our strongest messages. You know, when you look at

605
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: someone like Amanda Zarowski, when you look at the stories

606
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: of people who have come out since row is overturned,

607
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: these are overwhelmingly people who were later on in their pregnancies.

608
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: These are not people who are six seven weeks pregnant, right, Like,

609
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 3: the reason that they were in these terrible situations is

610
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: because they were later in pregnancy. And so those are

611
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: the stories that we need to be telling and sharing.

612
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: Jess in that debate, in that moment when Kamala Harris

613
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: is asked, well, don't you favor any restrictions and what

614
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: about nine month? What should she have said?

615
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 3: If she still favors restrictions, then she's going to have

616
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 3: to support that. I mean, I think that this is

617
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: part of the issue, right, is that right now the

618
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 3: Hairs campaign has made clear that they want to restore

619
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: row right, and so Roe does have restrictions, and so

620
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 3: if that is what they're pushing for, then she needs

621
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 3: to sort of back that up. If it was me,

622
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 3: and because I don't support any restrictions, I think you

623
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 3: have to say there's no point in pregnancy where a

624
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: woman stops being a human being. Let's talk about the

625
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 3: real women we know. Let's talk about Aman Jazerowski. Let's

626
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: talk about Kate Cox, Let's talk about this imaginary threat

627
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 3: versus the real women that this is happening to.

628
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: Let's talk about when somebody would be doing this, and

629
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: what the circumstances are right.

630
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 3: And what the circumstances are, and let's talk about what

631
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 3: a later abortion looks like, because you're talking about something

632
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: that only a few clinics in the country offer, that

633
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 3: can be ten twenty thousand dollars, That is a multi

634
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 3: day procedure. That is not something that anyone is going

635
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 3: into willy nilly. This is not something that someone just

636
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: wakes up and decides to do.

637
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 4: Right.

638
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: And I think if voters understood that and knew that,

639
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,479
Speaker 3: and I think if she had said, let's talk about

640
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 3: quose birth abortion, Let's talk about who you're talking about.

641
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 3: Such and such family had this situation and they got

642
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 3: to say goodbye to their son. That's who you're calling executioners.

643
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: Because that's the truth.

644
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: Jess.

645
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: We have you here. Just a day or two after

646
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 2: the news broke that, Milania Trump, in her upcoming book,

647
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: says that she is fundamentally and forcefully for a woman's

648
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 2: right to choose, that it's a really, you know, sacred thing,

649
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: and she supports it wholeheartedly and fact Sandy, after that

650
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: story broke, she issued the audio of that portion of it.

651
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.

652
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 7: Individual freedom is a fundamental principle that I safeguard without

653
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 7: a doubt. There is no room for compromise when it

654
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 7: comes to this essential right that all women possess from

655
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 7: birth individual freedom. What does my body, my choice really mean?

656
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 2: So, jess what is going on here?

657
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 3: Am I allowed to curse? Am I allowed to drop?

658
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a crock of shit. It's a total

659
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 3: crock of shit. Like, let's be serious. Her husband is

660
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 3: down over twenty points with women. There are stories of

661
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: women dying. You know, in the national conversation. A version

662
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 3: is the political issue that is driving voters right now.

663
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 3: And it is not a coincidence that she is coming

664
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: out with this statement right now.

665
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 4: I think it is.

666
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: It's one of the more craven things I've seen in

667
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: a long time. And you know, in addition to the audio,

668
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 3: she actually also put out a video with saying these lines,

669
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 3: and at the end of the video there's sort of

670
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: like a picture of her book and a prompt to

671
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 3: go buy the book. And I can't help but think

672
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 3: that she is, you know, hawking this forty dollars book

673
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: on the backs of dead women. That's really what's happening.

674
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: She knows that this is a popular issue. She's not

675
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: I just wrote an article about this. She's not pro choice,

676
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 3: she's pro Millagna, right. I think it's both that she

677
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 3: can see the writing on the wall and she can

678
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: see how popular abortion rights are and this is a

679
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 3: way to sell her book. But it also certainly helps

680
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 3: Trump if Republican women.

681
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: I was going to say, is this effective? It may

682
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: be craven, but does it work?

683
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: I think so, because I think for Republican women, the

684
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: ability to further fool themselves and say, oh, while his

685
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 3: wife is going to have some influence on him, and

686
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: if his wife believes this, he would never fully ban abortion, right.

687
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 3: I do think it will work to some extent. I

688
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: am really concerned about it.

689
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: But do we have any proof that he has ever

690
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: taken her feelings or wishes into account in the past.

691
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: No.

692
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 3: I mean, but I think at the point that you're

693
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 3: a woman voting for Trump anyway, there's so much like

694
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 3: delusion involved regardless that I think it's just one of

695
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 3: those things. It's almost like it's an excuse right, Like

696
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 3: if you're a Republican woman and your pro choice Malanya

697
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: saying this Trump saying, I'm giving it back to the people.

698
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to be too, a national abortion ban.

699
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 1: And I support IVF. I'm going to give it to

700
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 1: people for free right.

701
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: It gives you this excuse and commission to vote for him,

702
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: even against your own morals. And it's ridiculous and none

703
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 3: of that is true, but I do think for some

704
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 3: women voters it will work.

705
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, let's talk about sort of the bigger picture, because

706
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: you believe right wing extremists don't just want to see

707
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,479
Speaker 1: abortion outlawed a national ban, but they this is part

708
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: of a larger effort to gosh. I don't think it's marginalized,

709
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: but to take women back into the nineteen fifties and

710
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: to remove so many rights. I saw a video about

711
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: these THEO Bros saying they want to get rid of

712
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: the nineteenth Amendment.

713
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 8: So the THEO Bros are a group of mostly millennial

714
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 8: Christian pastors and influencers, many of them, most of them

715
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 8: even will tell that they are Christian nationalists. I think

716
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 8: it's important to say that not all of them hold

717
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 8: every belief that being said, I think some common beliefs

718
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 8: that I have encountered are that we should be repealing

719
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 8: the Nineteenth Amendment. They'll talk about the dead Constitution and

720
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 8: how the Ten Commandments should take its place.

721
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: I want a Christian nation more than a republic. I mean,

722
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: talk about this less than underground movement that is bubbling

723
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: up that is really attacking women in general.

724
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was never just about abortion. Abortion to me

725
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 3: was a means to an end. I think this is

726
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 3: about reinforcing traditional gender norms, erasing women from the public sphere.

727
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: What better way to do that than ensure that they

728
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 3: are forever pregnant. It is not a coincidence that the

729
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 3: same people who are pushing these bands are also pushing

730
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: birth control restrictions. Whether they're open about it or not,

731
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: that is what's happening.

732
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 5: You know.

733
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: People ask me, well, are they going to go for

734
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 3: birth control next? And I say, you know, it's already happening.

735
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 3: We're already seeing attacks on birth control. That's here talk

736
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 3: about that.

737
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: What are the attacks on birth control?

738
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's another one of these language games

739
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 3: that they're playing where they say I would never ever

740
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 3: bean birth control. I just want to be an abortion.

741
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: But it just so happens that for the last ten

742
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 3: years they've been laying the legal groundwork to argue that

743
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 3: iud's an emergency contraception, are abortions, right, And so when

744
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 3: they go to restrict IUDs, when they go to a

745
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 3: restrict emergency contraception, they can just say those aren't birth control,

746
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 3: those are abortions.

747
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: To take it a step further, you have all these

748
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: quote unquote wellness influencers on TikTok talking about the dangers

749
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: of regular old birth control and what hormones will do

750
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: to your body, which is basically birth control, not emergency

751
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: birth control, right, not the morning after direct anything like that,

752
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: just regular old birth control. How much of this is

753
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: demographic fear that white people are losing their place in

754
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: societ and this idea that white people must go forth

755
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: and pro create because the birth rate is declining in

756
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: this country.

757
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 3: I think that's a huge part of it. I don't

758
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: think it is a coincidence that the people, the wellness

759
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 3: influencers that we see promoting these messages are also there's

760
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 3: a lot of intersections with the tradwife movement, right.

761
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 4: There is this very racist.

762
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 3: Component to all of this that's like, we need more

763
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 3: white babies, we need more white women in the home

764
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: producing white Christian children for America. That is very much

765
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: the center of this movement, whether or not they're explicit

766
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: about it, that is absolutely what's happening. And in addition

767
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 3: to birth control, attacks on birth control, the fact that

768
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 3: we're seeing attacks on women's right to travel also not

769
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 3: a coincidence. Right, Another way to trap women in anti

770
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 3: choice states at home.

771
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: At tax on the right to travel. Is that about

772
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: the trafficking laws? What is happening there?

773
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm talking about what they call the anti trafficking laws.

774
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 3: So in Idaho and Tennessee they have passed what they

775
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 3: call anti trafficking laws that say you can't bring a

776
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: minor out of state for an abortion with that parental permission,

777
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 3: which sounds sort of semi reasonable on its face, but

778
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 3: in fact the law is written in such a way

779
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: that if you give a minor money gas money to

780
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 3: get out of state, you're an abortion trafficker. If you

781
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: send them the URL to an abortion clinic, you're an

782
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: abortion trafficker. And now in Texas they're passing these laws

783
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 3: as local ordinances for women of all ages, not just teenagers.

784
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: And this is why I write in the book what

785
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: Happens to teens one day comes for us all the

786
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 3: next where they're trying to make people civily liable for

787
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: taking women out of state to get abortions. And so

788
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: this is sort of already happening. And I wrote in

789
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: the book about the Alabama Attorney General, Steve Marshall. He

790
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 3: argued very in a legal brief that if they want to,

791
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 3: they have the right to restrict pregnant women's travel in

792
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 3: the same way that they have the right to restrict

793
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: the movements of a sex offender. Because the state has

794
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: a vested interest in protecting potential sexual assault victims. The

795
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 3: state has an interest in protecting a fetus from a

796
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 3: woman who wants to leave the state to have an abortion.

797
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: And so we are on the precipice very much so

798
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 3: of being told that if we leave the state while pregnant,

799
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 3: we are trafficking our own fetus. Like this is here,

800
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 3: it is, it is happening.

801
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, comparing pregnant people to sex offenders is pretty chilling.

802
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.

803
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: And the whole thing about rape incest in the life

804
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: of the mother. Even the most conservative anti choice people

805
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: it seems to me in the past have made those

806
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: or understood or promoted those exceptions, but now increasingly they're

807
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: not so. So that's when you hear about a ten

808
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: year old or a twelve year old raped by an

809
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: uncle or a stepfather, basically being told you have to

810
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: carry that baby.

811
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're getting much more radical.

812
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: It's not just the lack of exceptions, but the rise

813
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 3: of they call themselves abortion abolitionists, who believe that women

814
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 3: should be tried as murderers for having abortion. And we're

815
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 3: seeing more and more of these bills proposed in different states.

816
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 3: I wrote about one in South Carolina where it was

817
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 3: something like two dozen Republicans co sponsored the bill. This

818
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,280
Speaker 3: is not some fringe movement. This is something that really

819
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 3: is gaining a lot of steam. And so they're going

820
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: full force ahead. While the rhetoric has softened, Right, they

821
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: know that publicly they can't say, right, they're what they're

822
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 3: actually doing because Americans are so angry. But while the

823
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: rhetoric has softened, their politics have gotten much much more extreme.

824
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 2: Aren't they actually calling for the death sentence in South Carolina? Yeah?

825
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: That was that was part of I believe what I

826
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 2: read an abortion every day.

827
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were calling for the death sentence for women

828
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 3: who have abortions. It stands to a reason, once you

829
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: say that abortion is murder, right, you can't separate the

830
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 3: pregnant person out from that criminalization right. And that's the

831
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 3: reason we're already we're seeing people get criminalized for miscarriages,

832
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 3: for stillbirths. We saw Brittany Watson, Ohio get arrested for

833
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 3: abuse of a corpse, for flushing a miscarriage. We saw

834
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 3: a woman in South Carolina arrested for the end of

835
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 3: her pregnancy for murder. They are very eager to punish

836
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 3: and to criminalize.

837
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: Let's look at the future, Jessica and Cindy, what do

838
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: reproductive rights look like? If Donald Trump is elected in November?

839
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: What more could be done to affect this issue?

840
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: I mean really overnight. He could enact an informal national ban.

841
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 3: He doesn't need to pass a national ban through Congress,

842
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 3: and they have plans to do this. They've been very

843
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 3: explicit about this, that they would replace the head of

844
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: the FDA so that they could repeal approval of abortion medication,

845
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 3: which sixty three percent of people who and their pregnancies use.

846
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 3: They would enforce the Comstock Act, which is this very

847
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 3: very old obscenity law that makes it illegal to mail

848
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 3: to ship abortion medication, tools for abortion, birth control, anything

849
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 3: that they could label obscene. And so really overnight, all

850
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 3: of a sudden, no matter what seat you live in,

851
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 3: it's not possible to have an abortion, and that is

852
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 3: their plan.

853
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: First of all, the just just laid out an incredibly

854
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 2: chilling picture. I know, sorry, no, no, I mean, I

855
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 2: think one important thing to keep in mind is that

856
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: even if there is not a Trump residency, you know,

857
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 2: even if Kamala Harris is able to win in November,

858
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: the situation in a lot of states is really really dark,

859
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 2: and it's not going to change immediately. And I have

860
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: really kind of come around to agreeing with the activists

861
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: and the advocates who say we need something better than

862
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: Roe v. Wade, because I talked to someone in Alabama

863
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: who said, you know, the Dobs decision didn't make a

864
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 2: difference to us. Women here didn't have access to hospitals

865
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: where they could get care. You know, there's a ban

866
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 2: on using Medicaid funding for abortion, which means that if

867
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 2: you are without resources, you often couldn't get one. Even

868
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 2: when it was legal. I just think we need a

869
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: much better system that kind of takes the politics out

870
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 2: of it and leaves women's healthcare in their own hands

871
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 2: and gives them the support that they need to make decisions.

872
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: One interesting note is that for women under the age

873
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Speaker 1: of forty five, this issue has trumped excuse the word

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Speaker 1: the economy, Beyonce.

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Speaker 2: We like to say it's Beyonce.

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Speaker 1: Beyonce, the you know, the economy in terms of their

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00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: motivation for voting. So how much power will Kamala Harris

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Speaker 1: actually have to turn things around? Because some of these

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00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: things are kind of set in stone the Supreme Court,

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00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: for example, some of the changes that have been made

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Speaker 1: in states. Whether she'll have enough votes to make abortion

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Speaker 1: legal across the land? So what are her options if

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Speaker 1: she's elected?

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Speaker 3: I mean, in the same way, she'll have power over

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Speaker 3: these agencies, right, and the ability to work with the

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Speaker 3: FDA to reduce restrictions on abortion, medication, to increase telehealth.

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Speaker 3: Asindy said, nothing is going to change overnight. There's not

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Speaker 3: like a magical thing we can do. Unfortunately, things this

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Speaker 3: is a long fight, right, we have to sort of

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Speaker 3: like settle in and be prepared for a multip your fight,

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00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 3: but there are things that you can do to make

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00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,919
Speaker 3: things a little bit easier on the ground, to give

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Speaker 3: more support to governors, to give more support to activists,

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Speaker 3: and frankly, I think even just having a president who

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Speaker 3: is comfortable using the word abortion, talking about abortion, talking

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Speaker 3: about what's happening with abortion rights as a national health

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Speaker 3: emergency will light a different sort of fire under people

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Speaker 3: than we've seen under Biden.

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Speaker 2: And you've said that you at some point would like

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Speaker 2: to stop writing the newsletter Abortion every day, right, Like,

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00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 2: at some point do you get a weekend back?

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Speaker 3: At least maybe I could pare it down to abortion

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00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 3: every week at some point. That's my retirement plan.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 1: I love talking to both of you about this really

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Speaker 1: important issue. Jessica. Thank you for all the work you've done.

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Speaker 1: It is really probably challenging to write about this every day,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure you get pretty depressed, but I know

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Speaker 1: readers like Cindy and myself really appreciate your work, and

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00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: you appreciate you writing abortion, our bodies, their lives, and

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00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: the truths we used to win. Thank you both so

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00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: much for being here. Cindy, thank you for being my

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Speaker 1: co host. I loved it.

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Speaker 2: I loved being your co pilot, Katie. And Katie also

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00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,720
Speaker 2: thank you for giving a platform to these issues, because

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00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: even though, as Jessa said, they're so popular with people,

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00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: they're not always popular with media outlets. And you've always just,

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Speaker 2: you know, encouraged frank conversation and I think we're grateful.

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Speaker 1: Thank you both. Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have

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00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: a question for me, a subject you want us to cover,

921
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: or you want to share your thoughts about how you

922
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a

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00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: short message at six five one two five five five,

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00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I

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00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Next Question is a

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00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers

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00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer

928
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and

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00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:27,439
Speaker 1: Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more

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00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter,

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00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast

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00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: app or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can

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00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.