WEBVTT - The Upside-Down, Part 3 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.240 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:16.239 is Robert Lamb. 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.600 And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part three 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:22.400 in our series on the theme of being upside down. 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.439 In part one of this series, we talked about a 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.920 scene in Dante's Inferno in which the world suddenly seems 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.880 to be upside down while the poet is crawling down 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.440 the body of Satan, and we talked about how different 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.000 cosmological models apply to that scene. After that, we talked 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:45.040 about adaptations to upside down living in mammalian biology, particularly 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.640 in bats and tree slots. And then in part two, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.680 we talked about inverted vampires and other beasts and monsters 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.400 of folklore, things that are said to hang from the 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.840 ceiling or dwell upon the ceiling. And then we talked 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:03.120 about the physiology and psychology of spaceflight and how in 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:09.320 microgravity astronauts sometimes they're subject to a number of cognitive 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.520 and perceptual illusions that can make them suddenly feel like 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:18.120 they're hanging upside down, or can cause the astronauts' subjective 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.000 sense of up and down to switch places, and so 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:22.880 we are back today to talk about more. 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.480 Yeah, and one place I want to start out with 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:28.400 here is this kind of goes back to something we 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.560 were talking about. I think maybe in the first episode. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.760 We're talking about how sometimes the idea of an upside 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.360 down world is not necessarily a bad thing. You know, 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.240 It's not necessarily the Stranger Things model where the upside 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.600 down is a nightmare, shadow realm, or you know, some 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:48.920 sort of illogical world that is ruled by chaos. Turning 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.800 things on their head can of course reveal truth. That's 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.480 how we use the phrase, and it's actually one of 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.640 the key ideas bound up in the Tarot card, the Hangedvan. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.640 I think most of you have probably seen some version 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:06.280 of this, even if you're not familiar with taro He's 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.600 He is in general revealed as an individual who is 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.919 of course hanging upside down one leg by one leg, 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:15.840 with the other leg crossed behind him, like he's doing 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.960 an inverted yoga pose of some sort, but hanging from 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:20.680 like the branch of a tree or some sort of 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:26.640 a cross like structure, hands behind the back. But generally 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:32.320 he is not depicted as being in distress. Most depictions 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.400 of the hanged Man have kind of a voluntary feel 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.600 to them, and the idea I'm to understand within the 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.280 Tara tradition is that he is seeing the world from 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:42.040 a new angle. 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:44.440 That's not what I would have assumed based on the 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.240 name the hang demand sounds like a character being portrayed 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.720 in a kind of execution or crucifixion or something. But 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:55.720 the idea here is more that this is a figure 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.600 assuming a pose or assuming a new perspective. 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.600 Yeah. Yeah, some more things going on with other tarot 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.400 cards as well, where what it might seem to be 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.840 about is not the full story, and then you have 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.280 interactions and so forth. But you know, there's also some 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.000 connection here to the idea of the inverted cross, which 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:21.480 is often today popularly employed as an unholy symbol particular bands. Yeah, 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.919 metal bands and the sort of the sort of horror 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.079 movies that you and I navigate to and sometimes discuss 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.400 in weird house cinema and thinking about like a lacarda 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.200 and so forth. So you know, that's what I think 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.400 of when we think about an inverted cross. But of course, 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:39.960 traditionally within Catholic tradition, this is also the cross of 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:43.440 Saint Peter, who, according to tradition asked to be crucified 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:47.160 upside down because he felt unworthy to die in the 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.640 normal position, the way that Christ died. So it's bound up. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.720 The symbol is bound up with ideas of humility. Now 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.360 we can't be completely certain about the historic Peter here. 0:03:57.880 --> 0:03:59.920 You know, this might just be a story with him 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.360 ordering off the menu when it comes to this crucifixion. 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:07.000 But we do have passing references to inverted crucifixions or 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.120 perhaps to inverted crucifixions by such first century historians as 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:14.680 Seneca the Younger and Flavious Josephus, to suggest that the 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:18.599 acts were sometimes committed in this fashion and in other fashions. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:24.200 Now there's no real archaeological evidence, but then again, archaeological 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.760 evidence for crucifixion is extremely rare. You know, just think 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.320 about the elements involved here. And there were also, to understand, 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.680 no manuals on how to do it, So it's not 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:39.000 like there was a laminated card that crucifixion. Roman crucifixion 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.400 grunts referred to and decided how they were going to 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.400 torture people to death. There was, you know, it seems 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.560 to be kind of like a traditional way to do it. 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.640 And then sometimes they did other things out of their 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:52.200 you know, cruelty and horror. 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.240 Yeah, that is an interesting thing. I've come across this 0:04:55.400 --> 0:05:01.000 historical fact before that while there are tons of references 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.000 to crucifixion in ancient literature and stuff people were writing 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.760 during the Roman Empire, there's no like canonical source from 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.599 Roman authorities on how you did it or what it is. Instead, 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:16.440 it's just something that people are writing about, assuming everybody 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.880 else already knows exactly what they're talking about. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:23.080 Yeah, yeah, And it can be easy to assume this 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.400 as well. If you again, if you grow up in 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.919 in certain you know, church environments where a lot of 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:33.200 emphasis is placed on the the you know, gritty specifics 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.520 of crucifixion, you might think, oh, we got it all 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:37.880 figured out, but there are you know, a number of uh, 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.600 there are a number of questions that still remain regarding 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.599 what was done and indeed, like exactly how people would 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.880 die under these circumstances. I will admit I did not 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:52.520 have a strong enough stomach to really go any further 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.640 in that direction for this episode, But there are plenty 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.040 of papers out there that discuss these various ideas. But 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:00.920 I just didn't have the stomach for it myself. 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.479 Well, I don't want to go into too much detail either, 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:08.000 but I'll just say generally, outside of Roman Crucifixion, the 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.160 possible instances of upside down Roman Crucifixion, there are some 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.119 other cases in world history of torture methods that involve 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:17.360 being put upside down. 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:17.760 Yeah. 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.640 I'm thinking about some Japanese examples that I know of. 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.600 Yeah. Yeah, and again I didn't have the stomach to 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.120 do and all that, but they exist. There's a whole 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:38.920 world of that if anyone is interested. The next thing 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.120 that I want to talk about concerns the antipodes, or 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:48.719 well antipode. The singular is antipode, the plural is antipothies. Yeah. 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:53.600 So every position on our planet has an antipode. That's 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.320 a position on the exact other side of the globe. 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.599 So if you could tunnel from one point to another, 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.120 you could travel from say Madrid, Spain to Weber, New Zealand, 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:10.600 or from Formosa, Argentina to tan and Taiwan. A lot 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.640 of notable locations on our planet do not have an antipode. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.560 On dry land, you know, it would just if you 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:18.640 were to tunnel straight through it would spit you out 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:20.160 in the middle of a body of water, you know, 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.200 probably in the ocean. But these are a few key 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.000 surface to surface examples. 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.840 I don't know, but i'd imagine our antipode is somewhere 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:30.360 in the Pacific Ocean. 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.280 I think, so. Yeah. I was looking around at a 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.120 few and I was like, oh, well, there's not one there. Well, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:35.680 there's not one there. And then I was like, okay, 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:37.680 what are what are the main ones that people point to? 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.800 And generally it's you know, tunneling from you know, somewhere 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.559 in Europe to somewhere Australia and New Zealand. We actually 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.560 heard from a listener about this, reminding us that that 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.280 Total Recall remake that came out several years ago involves 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.440 a plot line about some sort of a crazy elevator 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.400 that go straight through the center of the planet. I 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:59.080 guess it lines up a little bit with the Dante 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.480 thing We're just got thing previously. 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.160 Several years ago on that Total Recall remake. I think 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.400 that was like twelve years ago, now, wasn't it. 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.880 Yeah, probably that's the way it goes. I still feel 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:11.400 like it just came out, but it's you know, it's 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:12.520 a classic film. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.120 Now Time, gotcha? 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:18.920 Yeah yeah, Time treats everyone like fool. All right, well, okay, 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.239 what does all this mean? What means that you could 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.240 have a person in Madrid and that person in weber 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.120 Is on the other side of the globe is upside 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.640 down from the Spanish perspective and vice versa. Of course, 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.120 you know it's it's feet to feet And indeed, the 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:39.400 word antipode comes from the Greek antipotis, which means with 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:40.319 feet opposite. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.160 Mmmm. Oh yeah, oposing feet. That that is interesting, and 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:48.679 you know that fact actually connects to one thing I 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.440 was reading about, which is the the upside downness of 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.760 astronomical references depending on which hemisphere of the Earth you're in. 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.800 So maybe people don't think about this very often, but 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.640 if if you're in the northern hemisphere, you know, the 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.080 moon looks a certain way to you, but if you 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.200 go to the southern hemisphere, the moon will now be 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.640 upside down from your familiar reference point because now you're 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.240 on the opposite side of the sphere looking up at it. 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.400 Oh wow, I wonder if it affects like wherewolf transformations 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.440 like in Australia, wherewolves transform from the feet up or 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.440 something I don't know instead of mouth first. 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.880 Interesting, but you can imagine that it is save for 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.400 ancient writers who did. By the way, you know, there's 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:39.240 a common misconception that, like, you know, everybody used to 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.160 think the Earth was flat. In history. There was some 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.920 flat Earth consciousness, but there was also a lot of 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.800 round Earth consciousness. So like ancient writers think understanding that 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.000 the geometry of the earth roughly understanding that it must 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.640 be round, and thinking about beings on the opposite sides 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.240 with their feet facing our feet and their heads going 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.160 in the opposite direct action. What kinds of beings must 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:02.560 those be? 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.079 Yeah, and it's interesting to look at this. This generally 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:11.360 boils up in discussion of like the monstrous races, the 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:15.120 monstrous people's the ideas that, yeah, they're humans all over 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.280 the world, but man, they take some weird forms. They 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.200 might have like a mouth in their stomach. They might 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.120 hop around on one foot and then laid back and 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.960 position that foot over their head to provide shade, that 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.720 sort of thing, you know. And a big part of 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.520 this is that you would have writers such as Roman 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.079 historian Plenty the Elder, who've talked about many times in 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.520 the show with someone like Plenty. You know, Plenty was 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.720 I'm to understand more of an empiricist concerning things closer 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.959 to Rome and things that he was able to witness 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.920 first hand in his own personal travels. But he is 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:52.280 in the Natural History attempting to write about the known world, 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:54.280 and so he has to depend on a lot of 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.440 far flung and sometimes fringe accounts from things much farther 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.640 out from secondhand and then third hand sources, you know, 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:06.600 from sailors and that traveled far or historians were reporting 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.280 as well on something that they receive second or third hand. 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.839 Yeah, and so you get interesting things when you read 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.240 Pliny's Natural History. Again, this is a first century Roman 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.200 source that's trying to create a kind of encyclopedia of 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.880 all knowledge at the time, and you get this weird 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.320 mix of like, oh, wow, you know, they they understood this. 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.360 They actually it's kind of surprising that they would have 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.880 certain understandings and knowledge that are to some degree correct 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.199 much earlier than you might think people did. And then 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.120 on the other hand, you will get bizarre, fantastical accounts 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.520 that are obvious and like scientific explanations that are obviously wrong. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.160 So here's an example of the outrageous. That is obviously 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:54.960 wrong concerning an antipode. And yeah, so there's essentially there's 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.920 a mythical race of people connected with the idea they 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.600 referred to, I believe as the Abaraman, which Plenty writes 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.160 of here He discusses this and other opposite peoples in 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:07.000 book seven of the Natural History. I'm going to read 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.200 a quote. But beyond the other Scythian Cannibals, in a 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:14.160 certain large valley of the Immavas Mountain, there is a 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.439 region called Aberaman, where are some people dwelling in forests 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.040 who have their feet turned backward behind their legs, who 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.840 run extremely fast and range abroad over the country with 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.880 the wild animals. It is stated by Baton, Alexander the 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.160 Great's route surveyor on his journeys, that these men are 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.760 unable to breathe in another climate, and that consequently none 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.560 of them could be brought to the neighboring kings, or 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:43.319 had ever been brought to Alexander. According to Isaginus of Nicea, 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.200 the former cannibal tribes whom we stated to exist to 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.599 the north ten days journey beyond the river bor Sithonians 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.199 sorry Bori Scynthienes drink out of human skulls and use 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.960 the scalps with the hair on as napkins hung around 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.280 their necks. The same authority states that certain people in 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.200 Albania are born with keen gray eyes and are bald 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.240 from childhood, and that they see better by night than 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:09.080 in the daytime. 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.200 Now, wait a minute, are any of these peoples said 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.120 by plenty to be Antipodean or these are just generally 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:20.400 like descriptions of peoples that are probably way off base. 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.040 Yeah, mostly this is just people far away, essentially on 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:28.080 the other side of the earth, are remarkably different, like 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.520 to the point where they might not be able to 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.120 breathe the same air. Or yeah, they see better at 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:34.720 night than in the day. You know, obviously we know 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.439 that this is not the case with human beings. There 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:42.000 are differences with you know, among different peoples in different 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.960 parts of the world, but they're not this pronounced, not 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:50.360 at all. And there are some other creatures and monstrous 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.040 races that pop up in other medieval bestiaries, such as 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.079 the Newly I think they're also sometimes described as being 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:03.520 an antipode race. But yeah, I think, you know, I 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.880 think that you know, despite all of this being, you know, 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.240 being quite incorrect. You can imagine that there's a pervasive 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.960 idea here from antiquity through medieval bestiaries, that humans that 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.520 lived on the other side of the planet or sufficiently 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:21.240 beyond our horizon might be fundamentally different in key biological ways, 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:26.040 almost like their aliens from an entirely different planetary ecosystem. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.200 At the same time, it's worth noting again that Plenty 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:33.440 very much believed that the entirety of the round Earth 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.320 was populated with people, and so like that's the deeper 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.320 truth here, Like he's getting a lot of things wrong, 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.760 but he's also saying here and elsewhere that the world 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.480 is round and there are people all over it. And 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.360 he discusses this in the section chapter sixty five that 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:56.000 is titled whether there be antipodes or antipodies? On this 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.400 he writes, quote, on this point there is a great 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.720 contest between the learned and the vulgar. We may maintain 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.440 the learned that there are men dispersed over every part 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.000 of the Earth, and they stand with their feet turned 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.400 toward each other, that the vault of the heavens appears 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.040 alike to all of them, and that they all of 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.120 them appear to tread equally on the middle of the Earth. 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.560 If anyone should ask why those situated opposite to us 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.760 do not fall, we directly ask in return whether those 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.160 on the opposite side do not wonder that we do 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.560 not fall. But I may make a remark that will 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.360 appear plausible even to the most unlearned, that if the 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.880 Earth were of the figure of an unequal globe like this, 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.640 like the seed of a pine, still it may be 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.360 inhabited in every part. Hmm. 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.640 Okay, I don't want to overstep, because I don't know 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.680 for sure here, but I would guess then that Plenty 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:56.000 has basically is. Obviously this is going to be incorrect 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.560 in big ways that come into focus when you think about, 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.600 like the other planets in the stuffs. But that he 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.400 can have basically the right idea about Earth's gravity even 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.520 without having an idea of gravity, just the idea that 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:10.920 all around the surface of the Earth everything would be 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.440 attracted toward the center. And he could have that idea, 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.920 possibly based on the same kind of Aristotelian model of 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.160 heaviness and lightness that Dante was probably using a thousand 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.160 years later, more than you know, twelve hundred thirteen hundred 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:26.680 years later. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.480 Yeah. Yeah, So I think it's interesting to sort of 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.600 focus in on this because, yeah, we sometimes we give 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.240 Plenty up a bit of a hard time based on 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.480 some of the more outrageous things in the natural history. 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.440 Though we often highlight what Plenty has to say in 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.240 that it shows how much was known at the time. 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:45.880 And to be clear, he was one of the most 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.680 learned men of his day and a titan of knowledge, 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.160 and that's why we keep referring back to him. You know. 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.440 It's whatever Plenty had to say about something or didn't 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.560 have to say about something informs us about just what 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.520 was known during this time period, you know, during the 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:01.200 first century. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.720 See, yeah, gives you a good snapshot of what generally 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.520 educated romans on a particular subject probably thought. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:14.520 Yeah. Now, the the idea of of of of there 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.360 being an antipode for every point and for there being 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.960 people on the other side of the earth. Again, I 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.400 think on the whole, you know, this was considered settled 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:30.119 among most of the learned, but you at least, you know, 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.760 a couple of centuries after Plenty's time, you did have 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.560 some folks who were a little bit more grumpy about 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.919 the concept and uh and and disagreed with it, and 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.400 even found the idea of people on the other side 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.199 of the earth of as being a clear counter to 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.880 the notion of a spherical earth. So probably the most 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.399 outrageous example of this is like Tensious Uh. He was 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.920 a later early Christian author and advisor to Roman emperor 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.040 Constantine the First. He lived two fifty through three twenty 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.200 five CE. To put that in comparison to plenty live 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.879 like twenty three to seventy nine. See so anyway, this author, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.960 this later Christian author, in his work Divine Institutes Rites, 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.800 Is there anyone so foolish as to believe that there 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.359 are people living on the other side of the earth 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.919 with their heels upward and their heads hanging down, Or 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.720 that things that lie flat with us hangs suspend it there, 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.480 that crops and trees grow downward, that rain and snow 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.280 and hail fall upwards upon the earth. 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.080 Wait a minute, I can't tell which way this is going. 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.760 Is this mocking people who don't understand that gravity would 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.199 be attracted the opposite way on the other side of 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.439 the earth, or mocking just the belief in people and 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.280 things on the opposite side of the Earth. 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.520 He's basically taking a shot at the understanding of the 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.280 world that Plenty really represents. So yeah, he was a 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.480 pretty famous attachs was a pretty famous critic of the 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.600 notion of around earth at the time, and though his 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.520 was not the predominant way of thinking, even certainly among intellectuals. 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:14.879 So the notion of around earth had again been settled 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:18.359 science essentially for centuries, as mentioned by Plenty, but the 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.760 secular world was sold on a spherical Earth, though the 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.320 issue remained a sort of nuisance discussion in the church. 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.800 Like at times there were people in the Christian Church 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:31.960 were like, can we maybe just shut up about this 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:36.360 because this really has nothing to do with salvation or anything. 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:41.120 It's just a senseless argument that probably makes people look stupid. Yeah. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.440 Yeah. And by the way, if you're wondering, like, wait, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.280 how did people in the ancient world know that the 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.879 Earth was round before they had, say, traveled all the 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.040 way around it, it circumnavigated the globe. There are all 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:57.200 kinds of experiments you can do and even just observations 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.760 you can make that inform you that the Earth is round. 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.879 You are being critical and you're scrutinizing the idea. You 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:08.000 can think about simple things like ships disappearing over the 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.800 horizon as they travel farther and farther away. That's one 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.479 pretty clear indication that, over long enough distances, the surface 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:17.720 of the Earth is curved. But then there are also 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:21.560 even going back into antiquity geometry experiments, you can do 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.240 with say the angle of a shadow cast by a 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.439 sun dial, and you can measure those angles at the 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:33.359 same time of day at different latitudes and notice that 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:35.920 there are differences, and that gives you indications that wait 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:37.960 a minute, the surface of the Earth is curved. And 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:41.480 then if you extrapolate from the degree of that curve, 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.280 you can see that actually we're living on a ball. 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:48.880 Yeah, And so as bal dwellers that we are, there 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:50.720 are those who live right side up and those who 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.480 live upside down. And at the same time, nobody is 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.680 right side up and nobody is upside down. 0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:05.640 It's true. 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.520 So I want to turn now to the realm of optics, 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:13.480 and I think this is pretty much where we're going 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:18.440 to stay for the duration of this episode. So here 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.199 here is something that we take for granted, Okay, a 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.199 basic statement that will probably feel true to most of 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:26.199 you at least until you begin to analyze it, and 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.320 that is we perceive the world right side up. 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.480 Yeah, that seems right up, looks up down, looks down right. 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:39.440 But what if, to borrow a comparison from David Eagleman, 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.960 previous guest on the show and also fellow podcaster, what 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.679 if we were to flip our eyes upside down, you know, 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.119 like mister potato head style. What if we took them out, 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.919 flipped him upside down, stuck him back in? What would happen? 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.959 So here, we're not considering putting them in the slot 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:00.400 where the ears go or where the mouth goes. We're 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.280 just talking about flipping the eye, just. 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.200 Flipping the eyes. Okay, Now, for starters, we should point 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:07.600 out that this would be quite difficult to pull off 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.360 in reality because you can't just say, pull the eye out, 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.360 twisted around and put it back in without severely damaging 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.520 the bundled optic nerve, which would cause blindness Surgically. You'd 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:23.080 also have to contend with these six extra ocular muscles 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.560 surrounding the eye. There's a lot of stuff holding stuff 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.080 in place, so you know, beyond what you might have 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.520 seen in a mad magazine or something with somebody's eyeball 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:34.760 hanging out on, you know, on a single thread. There's 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:36.600 a lot of stuff in there, and it's very delicate 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:37.760 if you start messing with it. 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:42.120 Actually, in the very next weird House Cinema movie we're 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.800 going to be doing, there is a pretty pretty awesome 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:48.399 cyborg cyborg eyeball removal and maintenance scene. 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:53.360