1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Hey, lady, is doctor dim here. If you like this 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: show and you want to make your own, let me 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: tell you about the free platform Anchor. It's a creation 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: tool that allows you to record and edit your podcast 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: right from your phone or computer. You can add songs 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: from Spotify and create any type of content that you 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: are looking for. Anchor will distribute it all for you 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: so it can be heard on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: Download the free Anchor app or go to anchor dot 10 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: fm to get started. 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: On this week's episode in her Space. 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 3: And I always tell people that I coach. I just 13 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: tell them you're not what you went through, but what 14 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 3: you went through can be a vehicle for who you 15 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 3: need to be. Right now, it's a choice, right, you 16 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 3: can choose to be the victim, because either whatever you 17 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 3: believe in is truth and report set it right. Do 18 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 3: you think he can? And do you think he can? 19 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 3: They're both right right. Whatever the thinker thinks, the prover 20 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 3: will poove. The Buddha said, all is mental. The whole 21 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 3: reality that we live in is mental, the Bible says, 22 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 3: as a man thinking, Thanks. 23 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 4: Welcome to her Space, a podcast dedicated to uplifting women 24 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 4: like you. We're your hosts, doctor Dominique Brussard, a college 25 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 4: professor and psychologist. 26 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 5: And Terry Lomax, a techie and motivational speaker. In a 27 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 5: world where black women are often misrepresented and misunderstood, please 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 5: join us as we initiate authentic conversations on everything from 29 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 5: fibroids to fake friends and create a safe space where 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 5: black women can just. 31 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: Be Hey girl. Hey, it's Terry here from the her 32 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: Space podcast. Every Wednesday, I release a Wisdom Wednesday mini 33 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,279 Speaker 2: episode that will give you the quick boost you need 34 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: to get you through humped. Visit herspacepodcast dot com and 35 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: click the Wisdom Wednesday with Terry link under start here 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 2: to get your weekly gems. I hope to see you there. 37 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 5: Thanks all right, lady, Today is a special day on 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 5: the Heirspace Podcast. We have our very first male guest, 39 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 5: and we've set the bar pretty high for future men 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 5: that appear on the show. Zoe Williams is a self 41 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 5: published author, relationship coach, and TV and radio personality. A 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 5: student of world religions, Zoe is a passionate and opinionated 43 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 5: dynamo who offers revolutionary thoughts about the breakdown of social 44 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 5: systems and institutions in how they impact human relationships within 45 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 5: the urban or alternative community. Dubbed as Tupac meets DEEPOK 46 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 5: or the hip hop Doctor Phil Zoe lends a unique 47 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 5: perspective to the relationship coaching world. 48 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: Welcome to herspace, So welcome. 49 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 50 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 5: You are so welcome. 51 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 4: Yes, and so we are going to just jump right in. 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 4: We are going to start with our quote of the day, 53 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 4: and our quote of the day comes from you zone. 54 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 4: As long as people in stepping stone relationships are committed 55 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,839 Speaker 4: to serving each other instead of misusing each other, there 56 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 4: is no inherent harm in stepping stone relationships. 57 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: Wow. 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 4: And so we want to start right off with asking 59 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 4: if you could explain to us what do you mean 60 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 4: by stepping stone relationships. 61 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 3: Relationships that aren't meant for a last are lifetime relationships 62 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: that are meant to teach you something in passing, you know, 63 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: every experience that we have in our relationship has a nugget, 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: a kernel of knowledge that actually expands up, so nothing 65 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 3: is ever wasted. The universe moves with an economy of movement. 66 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: Nothing in the uni versus wyecre. So a lot of 67 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 3: times we villainize some of the terrible relationships we've gone through, 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: thinking like, ah, man, I wish I hadn't gone through that, 69 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 3: or I didn't need to experience that again. But the 70 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: universe is very precise in the way that it delivers 71 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 3: these miniature classrooms to you. So a stepping stone is 72 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 3: someone who may not be long for your life, but 73 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 3: that doesn't devalue them or devalue their importance in your 74 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 3: life at the time that they're there. They're there to 75 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 3: drop off something that will help you mature an evolved 76 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 3: to the next stage of your team. 77 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 4: And so if we approach that from that open perspective 78 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 4: of each relationship that we get into has the potential, 79 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 4: has the capacity to teach us something, then do you 80 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 4: think that that's what helps us to serve each other 81 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 4: instead of misusing the a person. 82 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: Well, I think a keyword. I mean, we don't want 83 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: to get too far into semantic, but serving is using 84 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 3: and we have to be very careful to not misuse 85 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 3: the one who is in service, right, so we have 86 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: to be very mindful of that. The Hindus have a 87 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 3: belief system or part of their religion is called Siva 88 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: Seva and it is service. It's the word that means servant, 89 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 3: and for them, serving other people is the same as 90 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: worshiping God. So if we take that same principle, when 91 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: someone is showing us something about ourselves in an intimate relationship, right, 92 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: it's harder to disrespect them, it's harder to detegrate them, 93 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 3: it's harder to put them down right again, Blame and 94 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: comparison are big killers of intimate relationship. Blame and comparison right, 95 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 3: and we have to be very careful when somebody is 96 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 3: in our lives. They're there to deliver a higher understanding 97 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 3: of ourselves or even unfold in the aspect of ourselves 98 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: that we never knew anything about. 99 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 2: I heard a quote years ago. 100 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 5: I don't remember who said it, but it says something 101 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 5: like relationships are like mirrors. And as I began to 102 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 5: evolve and grow and get into relationships, I was like, 103 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 5: you know what, that's actually a good point, because I 104 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 5: realized that the relationship is bringing out certain things in 105 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 5: me that I may need to work on, or it's 106 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 5: teaching me things about myself. So would you agree with that, 107 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 5: Zoe and saying that relationships are similar to mirrors where 108 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 5: we can kind of see ourselves from a different maybe perspective, 109 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 5: and what we may need to enhance or work on. 110 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 3: Well, the first time I heard that statement is it 111 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 3: was from the famous philosopher Jay Christianamerci. He wrote a 112 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 3: book it's called Relationship as a Mirror, and I actually 113 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 3: expounded on him point in The Relationship Dismount and I 114 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: mentioned and incite Chris Nhmer to his work because who 115 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: you are is what you get, and a lot of 116 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: people are not happy about what they get because ultimately 117 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 3: they're not happy with who they are. Reaching a level 118 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 3: of unconditional love, reaching a level of unconditional understanding has 119 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: to first be done within oneself right. So it doesn't 120 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 3: mean having all the answers for yourself. What it means 121 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 3: is knowing what you are and then embracing it right 122 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: and then saying, hey, okay, this is who I am. Okay, 123 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 3: I'm all right with that. You know what I mean, 124 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 3: I'm all right with who are. 125 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 5: That's a really good point, Zoughen. In your book The 126 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 5: Relationship Dismount, one thing you talk about is you talk 127 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 5: about the sporting life and how an athlete's approach to 128 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 5: their craft compares to relationships. Can you just dive into 129 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 5: that a bit and talk about what that comparison is 130 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 5: or how they compare to one another. 131 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: Well, most people have routine relationship routine, and just like 132 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: in gymnastics, where there is a routine, the routine is 133 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 3: ruined at the end based on the dismount. If you 134 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: don't stick the landing, you tumble or stumble into the 135 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: next routine. Right, Psychologically speaking, the gymnast has that on 136 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 3: their mind. I didn't spit the landing and the last routine. Well, 137 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 3: we have relationship routines and patterns. Children model the home 138 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: environment that they were raised in. And if you see 139 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: your parents dismount a relationship in a harmful or disrespectful way, 140 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 3: then you tend to take their way of conflict management, 141 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 3: their way of dealing with trauma, whether it be to 142 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 3: swallow it and not speak about it, right, you tend 143 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 3: to model how they resolved issue. So the modeling is 144 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 3: the routine. If you see great basketball players, Karl Malone 145 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: used to say a little prayer or used to mention 146 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: something every time before he shot a free throw. Right, 147 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 3: if you look at Kobe Bryant, he had an extreme 148 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: work ethic where he worked so hard to prepare himself 149 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: to excel during the game. Again, we model our environment. 150 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 3: That is the routine. Now, if you have a successful 151 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: dismount modeled in your household, meaning you know, my family, 152 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 3: in order to deal with conflict, or in order to 153 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 3: manage conflict, in order to deal with you know, broken 154 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 3: relationships that have happened within our home, we sit down 155 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 3: and we talk with a therapist, or we sit down 156 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: and we talk with a holistic healer and a therapist 157 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 3: or a pastor. We have devotion where nobody is being 158 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 3: judged for speaking the truth about how they felt, how 159 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 3: a situation unfolded within these walls. Right, if you model children, 160 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 3: or if you put children in that environment, they will 161 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 3: model that as a means of managing conflict. Or if 162 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 3: you put a child in an environment where the management 163 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: style is avoidant, we won't talk about well, we won't 164 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 3: talk about it produces more conflict because what is avoided 165 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: needs to be embraced. Or we got to combative style. 166 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 3: If you bring something up to me, I'm going to 167 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: compete and combat you. Right, and nothing ever really gets 168 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 3: dealt with. And this is where you see the seeds 169 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 3: of kitchen thinking and gas lighting and all of these 170 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 3: other psychological traps you know, manifest themselves in the way 171 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 3: that we manage conflicts. You put the children in that environment, 172 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 3: they model that routine and any other dismount that is 173 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 3: presented to them. Sometimes the dismount is contempt. You don't 174 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 3: get to be a part of what we're doing anymore. 175 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 3: You got to leave. 176 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 5: Right. 177 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: Sometimes the dismount is contempt because I mean, contempt is 178 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 3: easier than embracing a problem right that you don't have 179 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: the tools for. If you have the tools, you would 180 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: embrace the problem and use the tools that you have 181 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: to diffuse the problem. So a lot of people are 182 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 3: the rest of the tools they need, so contempt and 183 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: expulsion become an easier way to manage conflict, and that's 184 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: their dismount. 185 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 4: Wow, that was a lot. And but what I want 186 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 4: to tap into is you mentioned in your household you 187 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 4: use holistic approaches, you use therapy, you use a combination 188 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 4: of those. You will so the pastor so typically the 189 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 4: stereotype or the narrative, the negative narrative that's out there 190 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 4: is that black men don't do therapy right, And as 191 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 4: a therapist, I know that that's not true. But I 192 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 4: know that there are a lot of black men that 193 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 4: struggle with the idea of going to therapy. So can 194 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 4: you talk a little bit about how you got into 195 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 4: using therapy and what you usually tell other black men 196 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 4: in encouraging them to use therapy. 197 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 3: Well, you have to remember, the black man as he 198 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 3: is today is the ward and may this may be hurtful, 199 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 3: but he's the ward of this white society. Just as 200 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 3: a black woman. We don't create our own narratives for success. 201 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 3: We don't create our own narratives for romance, we don't 202 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 3: create our own narratives for intimacy. A lot of what 203 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 3: we get to compile our understanding, and I'm talking about 204 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 3: just ideas and concepts comes from the society in which 205 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 3: we live. A perfect example of that is, if you're 206 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 3: born in Tennessee in the eighties and you're African American 207 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 3: to a middle class family, you're probably gonna be Christian. 208 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 3: You're probably gonna join a sorority or a fraternity too. 209 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 3: That's just you understand what I'm saying. You know, again, 210 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 3: I'm just showing that society. You know, we live in 211 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 3: a society that has created a certain type of black 212 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 3: man and woman. Unfortunately, one of the things that comes 213 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 3: out of the society is black men have a fear 214 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: of anything white controlled. So if it's the doctor, we 215 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: don't like going to the doctor because who is he, 216 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 3: what is he gonna do? We don't want to deal 217 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 3: with him. If it's the police, we don't want to 218 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: do with him. We know how that turns out, right, 219 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 3: So there's this notion that therapy is just of him, 220 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 3: and that's an extension for how he you know, labels 221 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 3: us as either hyperactive or we need some riddling. We 222 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: were bad kids, and you know, we were reading what 223 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: I'm saying a lot of times. You know, we have, 224 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: you know, stereotypes and stigmas around institution, and that prevents 225 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: us from participating in things that might be beneficial. Now, 226 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: as a therapist, I'm sure you know that oftentimes white 227 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: therapists are not the best to deliver any insight. To 228 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: deliver any insight to black couple, you need a black 229 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 3: therapist who not only understands culturally, but then can apply 230 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 3: the science and the tools she got, you know, or 231 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 3: he got becoming a therapist, the clinical tool as well 232 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: as just you know, I know what you're talking about. 233 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 3: I come from where you come from. So a lot 234 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 3: of the times, there's a disconnect there and a lot 235 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: of black men can feel it, you know, just like 236 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 3: a lot of black men can see that the preacher 237 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 3: is hustling because we've been taught, you know, a black 238 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 3: man and go to church and listen and go, Okay, 239 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 3: that's a genuine dude. I'll come back, or he'll go 240 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 3: to church and go, No, that's the hustle. You don't 241 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 3: see it because you want to believe. But that's the hustle, damn, 242 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 3: because you want to believe. And that's and that's that's 243 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: part of it. So for me, I got turned onto 244 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: it a little bit because one of my co hosts 245 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: on my show for many years, his name is doctor 246 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 3: Mark Gulston. He's a therapist and a medical doctor, and 247 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 3: you know, he's written a whole bunch of books talking 248 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 3: to crazy and how to get out of your own 249 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 3: way and and listen, I think it's just listen to 250 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: the are all, you know, international best selling book. And 251 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 3: he was just so honest about the history of psychiatry. 252 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: He just said, Yo, it started off as a pseudoscience. 253 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: We were torturing people, and you know, we've you know, 254 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: dunking people in cold baths of ice, and you know, 255 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 3: you know, electro shock therapy. He was like, it was 256 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 3: torture because we didn't understand. We were we were trying 257 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: to understand. He talked about phrenology, and he went on 258 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: and on and on, and then he said, and now 259 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 3: it's transitioned from torture to big pharma. You know, now 260 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 3: we can just prescribe you something. And because he was 261 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: so honest, I was still able to see some of 262 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 3: the human tools, right, the human tools that he was 263 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: able to impart on us, you know, like listening empathetically, 264 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 3: listening without judgment, separating your own issues while listening, you 265 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 3: see them saying because a lot of times you'll have 266 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: therapists and clinicians who they transfer their own experience and 267 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 3: it's like, okay, but that's complicating the situation because your 268 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 3: experience is yours and there are theirs, and they need 269 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 3: objectivity and not subjectivity in order to properly diagnose them 270 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 3: right and lead them on a way. Like a lot 271 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: of times, you know you'll get a therapist he's about 272 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 3: healing themselves as opposed to healing who's in front of them, right, 273 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 3: And a lot of people don't think that black men 274 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: aren't intuitive, but we are, and we can sense that 275 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: and we can you know, and it's like, well, I 276 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 3: don't want to do that, you know. I don't want 277 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: to be a part of that. That's why for me, 278 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 3: I learned the devotional piece from my mother. She would 279 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 3: always have devotion. But then I took it to another 280 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: level and said, well, we need an African shaman in 281 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: here that deals with spirituality. African spirituality where we came 282 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 3: from before we were Christians. We didn't have a choice 283 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 3: being Christians. You know, that's just part of the social construct. 284 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 3: But then I said, okay, let's put the African shaman 285 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 3: with a clinician a therapist. Let's do that together. Let's 286 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 3: get the clinical side and the spiritual side. I love it, 287 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 3: And let's deal with what you see what I'm saying, 288 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 3: and let's deal with what's happening in. 289 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 4: The house, because all of that is happening in the house, 290 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 4: and your shaman might not know all of the psychological 291 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: background and your therapist might not understand all of the 292 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 4: spiritual backgrounds. So having both as a tag team, that's 293 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 4: that's amazing. 294 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 3: Now. 295 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 5: So one thing that I that really took me by surprise. 296 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 5: You know, I've listened to many of your shows over 297 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 5: the years, and when I read the Relationship Dismount, you 298 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 5: talked about just your up bringing. I did not realize 299 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 5: that you had so many I guess obstacles, you know, 300 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 5: growing up. And so I'd love to know how can 301 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 5: people heal and process the dysfunctional relationships with our parents, 302 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 5: in particular, because I know you had some very interesting 303 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 5: experiences with I believe you had adoptive parents, and that 304 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 5: your mom as well, and then your brother who kind 305 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 5: of tried to step in as that male figure. So 306 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 5: can you talk a bit about healing from that that 307 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 5: trauma from our parents. 308 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: Healing comes from accepting, and you can't accept anything you're 309 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: trying to avoid. Right, A lot of times we identify 310 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 3: with what we went through. It becomes who we are, right. 311 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: It's either a badge of honor or it's something we're 312 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 3: ashamed about. But either or it affects our identity, how 313 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 3: we see ourselves. Right, And the problem with healing in 314 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 3: that state is that it's hard for you to heal 315 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: something that you think you are. And I always tell 316 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 3: people that I coach, I just tell them you're not 317 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 3: what you went through, but what you went through can 318 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 3: be a vehicle for who you need to be. Right now, 319 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 3: it's a choice, right, you can choose to be the victim, 320 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 3: because either whatever you believe in is truth in the 321 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 3: report said it right. He he thinks he can and 322 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 3: he who thinks he can't. They're both right. Right. Whatever 323 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 3: the thinker thinks, the prover will prove. The buddhast said, 324 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 3: all is mental. The whole reality that we live in 325 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 3: is mental. The Bible says, as a man thinking, so 326 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 3: is he. So you have to see which one gives 327 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 3: you more power, because in both there is a payoff. 328 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 3: There's a massive payoff and being a victim because people 329 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 3: empathize with you because of your victimhood positionality in their 330 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 3: lives right until they get tired of right. So we 331 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: already know what the power is or what the payoff 332 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: is in the victimhood of or in the position of being, 333 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 3: you know, victorious over whatever you've gone through, being a 334 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 3: student of whatever you've gone through. You know, there are 335 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 3: no accidents in the universe. Like I said, the universe 336 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: has an economy of movement. Things happened the way they happen, 337 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: like Lebron James didn't know he was going to be 338 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 3: a number one NBA draft pick out of high school 339 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: at eighteen years old, after being homeless with his mom 340 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 3: and struggling with his mom and being on welfare and 341 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 3: no daddy and mom's dealing with drugs. He didn't know it, 342 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 3: but he embodied it and the next thing, you know, 343 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 3: look where he at. Yeah he's four or five hundred 344 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 3: million deep. But does that mean he's if you Popularbron 345 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 3: James and he goes back and he goes, I'm glad 346 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 3: my father wasn't around. You know, he's not a whole, 347 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 3: you see. Or if his fatherhood is predicated on being 348 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 3: a better father than his father was to him, he's 349 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 3: not a whole. He's proven a point as opposed to 350 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 3: holding his position as a father, which means that that's 351 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 3: saying I still need you, dad to explain things. Now 352 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 3: I can tell myself I don't, and I can look 353 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 3: at where I am in life and say this, look 354 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: I got here without you. But really, your father is 355 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 3: still the fuel for your parenting because you're still proving 356 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 3: something to him spiritually, and he's the fuel for your 357 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 3: profession because you said We're not going to live like 358 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: that because dad left us. It's the perspective that gives 359 00:22:59,080 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 3: you the power. 360 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 5: And so what would wholeness look like? That was so 361 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 5: interesting to me. So WHOA that was like kind of 362 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 5: mind flowing right there. What does wholeness look like in 363 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 5: that context? And what mindset would he need to have? So, 364 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 5: because a lot of people, I think, are in this 365 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 5: world where it's like, oh, mommy wasn't there, Daddy wasn't there. 366 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 5: So I'm gonna, you know, achieve these goals, you know, 367 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 5: to prove. 368 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: Something to them. 369 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 5: So what is the mindset of a whole person that 370 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 5: didn't have their parents there and they're still ambitious? 371 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: Achievement does not equivocate to home, many people think. So 372 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 3: you hear somebody like Tony Robbins says say massive success 373 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 3: is the greatest form of revenge, maybe externally if people 374 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 3: fail to realize that, more than anything else, relationship is spiritual, 375 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 3: and spirit is contextual. It's nuanced, right right. We don't 376 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 3: understand that it's nuanced and it's fragmented. You don't get 377 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 3: whole answers in every experience. You get pieces. Sometimes it 378 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 3: will take you three experiences to get one whole answer. 379 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 3: Sometime it may take ten. 380 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 5: Yes, ain't that the truth? 381 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 3: You wake up, you wake up fifteen years later you go, wow, 382 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 3: that's what that mean? Time? Do you see what I'm saying? 383 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 3: Just like our Just like time is fragmented. It's fragmented 384 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 3: in moments, minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, eon it's fragmented. 385 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 3: Time is fragmented. Our pictures are fragmented. You zoom into 386 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 3: a picture you've taken, it breaks down into pixel Our 387 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 3: reality is fragmented. Right. We could go from as big 388 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 3: as street and the cars on the street, we go 389 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: to a small as an atom, and then we go 390 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 3: inside the atom. It breaks down into electrons, and everything 391 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 3: is pixelated and fragmented. And so is knowledge, wisdom and understanding. 392 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 3: It's a process that we live every day. This is 393 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 3: why it makes total sense that they said no more 394 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 3: conflict resolution. We got to call it conflict management because 395 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: conflict doesn't go away, Yes, because conflict is like yet, 396 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 3: it's revolving. 397 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 2: So what do we do? 398 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 3: What do we do with that? We manage it one pixel, 399 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 3: one piece at a time. 400 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,239 Speaker 4: So so speaking of fragments and managing one piece at 401 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 4: a time, one piece that is always fascinating to mean 402 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 4: is in particular with heterosexual relationships. How do you work 403 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 4: with men in coaching men in having healthy relationships when 404 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 4: they're coming from a patriarchal or misogynistic perspective. 405 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 3: Well, let's remember, just like the man is afraid, there's 406 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: stereotypes of him going to the doctor or going to 407 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: a therapist, right, there are also stereotypes about patriarchy. First off, 408 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: a black man in America can't be seen as a 409 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 3: part of the patriarchy. Why because he doesn't have any 410 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 3: real power. And that's to me, that's a big misnomer. 411 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 3: Black men don't have power. When you see black men 412 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 3: reach certain positions of power, believe you me, there are 413 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: white men above them in that high arch. And those 414 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 3: black men who have reached certain levels i e. Martin 415 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 3: Luther King, once you get out of pocket with our 416 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 3: agenda that we've put you in place to facilitate, we 417 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 3: will take you out of there. So it's hard for 418 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 3: me to say, how do black men create healthy relationship 419 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: right when dealing with the ideation of chasearchy, Well, I 420 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 3: don't know a black man who's in a position to 421 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 3: say those people over there did something and we're gonna 422 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 3: bomb them, or you know, I don't know. Black men 423 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 3: in position like that, where black men extrapolate power from 424 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 3: is their job here in America? Is their occupation here 425 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 3: in America. America's construct for relationship is largely transactional. If 426 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 3: I got money, I've got power. If I make more 427 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 3: money than you, I have more power than you. This 428 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 3: is where the power struggle comes from. This is why 429 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 3: a lot of women who are doing much better than 430 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 3: a lot of men. If you are looking at the data, 431 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 3: a lot of sisters are doing better than brothers education 432 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 3: as well as occupationally. And now they're starting to say, look, brother, 433 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 3: I'm in position to tell you what to do because 434 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 3: I'm the one who's paying for all of it. A 435 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 3: lot of times you hear people say, oh, well, this 436 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 3: isn't a healthy relationship. For this is a healthy relationship. 437 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 3: Having a healthy relationship is not like walking into a 438 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: grocery store and grabbing some pre cut produce. Right. A 439 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 3: healthy relationship is the byproduct of a process. What is 440 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 3: that process? The process of unraveling all of the modeling 441 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 3: you got from your household. Now, for me, I doubt, 442 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 3: I seriously doubt that they're just a whole bunch of 443 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 3: really amazing households that black people, white people are just 444 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 3: coming from. 445 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 5: No. 446 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 3: I believe that most households are challenged. Most households don't 447 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: have relationship tools. So to say, you know, how do 448 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: you deal with the patriarchy, Well, the reverse of that 449 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 3: question will be how would a woman have a healthy 450 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 3: aist to have a healthy relationship. Dealing with the ideas 451 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 3: that come from feminism, there's one radical feminist belief that 452 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 3: says men are disposable. You get shared talking about men 453 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 3: are like toilet tissue, They're disposable. So these are ideological 454 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: constructs and I'm going to use Christian emercy again. Christian 455 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 3: Emertin says, if you want to keep men divided, all 456 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 3: you have to do is present them with a concept. 457 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 3: He said, it is conceptual thinking that keep men separated, 458 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 3: the concept of I'm from Pasadena, so I'm a Pasadenian 459 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 3: you mean inside of La Yeah? Do you get what 460 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 3: I'm saying? 461 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 5: Yes? 462 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 3: And I always tell people like, look, if you claim 463 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 3: feminism as an identity, just like a person claiming victimhood, 464 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: you become a warrior in the army of that identity. 465 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 3: Now you've got to defend your victimhood. But if I 466 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 3: claim feminists, I have to defend feminist. Now everything starts 467 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 3: to it's a confirmation by it. You see, Now everything 468 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: looks like the big bad patriarchy because I'm ideologically enrolled 469 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 3: in the army of this belief system. We have to 470 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 3: just like I said in my book The Holographic Relationship, 471 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 3: we need to understand when our belief systems can be 472 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 3: reduced to an acronym be as. We have to come 473 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: to the understanding of when those beliefs them are now 474 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 3: bs ing us because we're powerful beings that are not 475 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 3: separate from God, and whatever we believe in animates itself. 476 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 3: So if you want a healthy relationship, number one, you 477 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: got to dig roll up your sleeve and dig into 478 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: your spirit and start unraveling and start unraveling the bs 479 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 3: you came from. 480 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 4: And I feel like that. 481 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 482 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 4: So if you if you had patriarchy and misogyny model 483 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 4: for you then and it's been harming you, then you 484 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 4: have to work through that, right And if you come 485 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 4: from a feminist perspective and that still hasn't been serving you, 486 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 4: then you have to change it. So I get so 487 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 4: it sounds like what you're saying, is that whatever it is, 488 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 4: even if it's religion, right, like, no matter what it 489 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 4: may be, that is, if it's not serving you, then 490 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 4: you have to dismantle it exactly. 491 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 3: And again this might be semantics. Take the word serving 492 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 3: and replace it with elevating, right, because the ego, the 493 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 3: ego will take serving as I need to be served. 494 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 3: No no, no, no no no, you need to elevate. Yeah, 495 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 3: you need to elevate, right, you need to ascend right 496 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 3: in levels of consciousness. Now, if you step outside of 497 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 3: the patriarchal framework of America, which is mainly white male. 498 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: Yes, basically, yes, pretty much. 499 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 3: And I think I understand that. 500 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, it is Obama into. 501 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 3: It, right. Barack Obama could not do what Donald Trump 502 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 3: is doing because you talk the way Donald Trump could 503 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: talk back. Obama was the first African American president, but 504 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 3: also he was the first president who had to fight 505 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 3: stereotype threat while in office. 506 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 5: Yesh dz. 507 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 3: This man is being as white as he can possibly 508 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 3: be and speaking to the lowest levels of white males 509 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 3: on planet Earth right now. So we have to stop 510 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 3: comparing black men and a white patriarch because we're in 511 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 3: two different worlds. Black people in America. When we look 512 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 3: at black people in America, there is a massive wealth gap. Right, 513 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 3: Ninety percent of the nation's wealth is in the hands 514 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: of white people. Two point six percent of that is 515 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 3: in the hands of black people. Two percent of that 516 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 3: is in the hands of baby boomers with boomer hook 517 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 3: children that are waiting for those boomers to die so 518 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 3: they can inherit the real estate. The other zero point 519 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 3: six percent is beyond say jay Z and everybody else right, right, 520 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 3: So it's difficult to sit and go, well, the black 521 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 3: male patriarchy, what black male patriarchy, We're not in that position, 522 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 3: right that. That's just like saying black people can be racist. No, 523 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 3: Francis cresh Wilson said, you can't be racist if you 524 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 3: don't have the power to stop people from getting a 525 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 3: bank loan, from stopping people from moving into a certain 526 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 3: neighborhood redlining. Well, they no black people with that kind 527 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 3: of power. You don't get to get into this industry 528 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 3: because of the way your name sounds and the way 529 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 3: your hair locks. We don't that's racism. Yeah, we can 530 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 3: say racist thing, but we don't implement. We could be prejudiced, 531 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 3: but we don't implement racism. And that's the same with 532 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 3: the patriarchal question. 533 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 4: Okay, so you're saying that black men can't be labeled 534 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 4: like patriarchal, but they can be complisit within the system. 535 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 3: The system creates a toxic person, regardless of gender. Christianamurthy 536 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 3: said it the best. It is no measure of health 537 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 3: to be fully integrated into a sick society. Easy. So again, 538 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 3: the society is sick if Joe Biden can stand on 539 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 3: the floor to Congress and say, or the Senate floor 540 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 3: and say, yeah, we helped create the black man. We 541 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 3: help create this guy. He's running around, they're killing people. 542 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 3: But you know what if he comes and kills my 543 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 3: grandmother or my mother, we've got to do something about that. 544 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 3: Wait a minute, are you taking responsibility for creating the 545 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 3: conditions that makes a Chicago, that makes a Baltimore, that 546 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 3: makes a comptent and then saying, but we need to 547 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 3: create legislation, this was the crime deal You helped create 548 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 3: the black men that you loathe. That's a Again, you 549 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 3: can't say the black man is something without talking about 550 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 3: the container in which he was pulled from. This is 551 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 3: the container of this society. So is the black man 552 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 3: responsible or is the society in which he was created 553 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 3: in responsible? 554 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 5: Drops Mike on that note, dag Zoe, So, I do 555 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 5: want to say, we want to shift the conversation and 556 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 5: move on to a new segment. This is our first 557 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 5: time doing this segment with the male. So just bear 558 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 5: with us now, Zoe, because we recognize and appreciate and 559 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 5: celebrate the multifaceted woman and believe that it's okay to 560 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 5: be classy and ratchet and you can still be elegant 561 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 5: and dance to strip club music if you so choose. 562 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 5: We want to invite you to the oh you clash 563 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 5: It segment, but we've changed up our questions a bit 564 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 5: since you are our first male guest. So, Zoe, do 565 00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 5: you take on the challenge? 566 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 3: What is the challenging? Gain warda mercy? 567 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 5: Right, So we're just going to ask you some rapid 568 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 5: fire funk questions that are that could be considered classy 569 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,919 Speaker 5: and ratchet at the same damn time. 570 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 3: So clatch clash it? Okay? 571 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 5: All right? 572 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 4: Do it? 573 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: So? 574 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 5: So what song gets you on the dance floor at 575 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 5: the club or party? 576 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 3: Rock with you? Michael Jackson, Hey, yo, Okay, there we go. 577 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 4: Okay, we know from your book that you are into basketball. 578 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 4: But would you say you're more pro or collegiate? And 579 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 4: what's your favorite team? 580 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 3: I would say I'm more collegiate and my favorite team 581 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 3: on the pro side are the Lakers, And on the 582 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 3: collegiate side, my son is playing for Fresno State. So 583 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 3: go bulled up? 584 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 5: Okay, okay, all right, now, so we know you got bars. Okay, 585 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 5: we know you're super talented and you got bars. So 586 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 5: I gotta know freestyle or written? 587 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 3: Written? Written? 588 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 5: Okay? 589 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 4: Oh okay, So we can't drop a beat and expect 590 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 4: you to just go in on, go in real quick. 591 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,720 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, no, I can't. I can't 592 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 3: waste a syllable. It has to be written. 593 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 4: It. Okay. What's something that many people don't know about you? 594 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 3: That I'm pretty reclusive. I stay inside in a way. 595 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 3: I don't go out very much. It's not my style. 596 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 3: So pretty reclusive. Hey, okay, And so. 597 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 5: What question do you wish you got asked more? I 598 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 5: know you have a lot of interviews, you have your 599 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 5: own shows. 600 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 2: What question do people not ask you enough? 601 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: That's a tough question because I've been asked a whole questions. Man. Yeah, 602 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 3: that's that's a tough one. I'm not quite sure. 603 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 4: Okay, well if the rivers of the time, yeah right, wow, yeah, 604 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 4: Well we're going to lighten it up just a little 605 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 4: bit with our final question, what is your biggest guilty pleasure? 606 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 3: Damn key line Pie. 607 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 2: Okay, there we go, key Line Pie. 608 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 4: Okay, right now. 609 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 5: Well, so we just want to thank you so much 610 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 5: for dropping some gems and insight. I can't wait to 611 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 5: re listen to this episode and take more notes. 612 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, we just want to. 613 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for being in her space and 614 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 5: offering your perspective. And we want to share with our 615 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 5: listeners where they can support you, where they can tune 616 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 5: into your show and also just find you on social 617 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 5: media and also purchase your books. 618 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: So feel free to let them know where they can 619 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 2: find you. 620 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 3: You can find me at I Am Joe Williams dot 621 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 3: com to purchase my book The Holographic Relationship, or you 622 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 3: can and go to Amazon dot com and The Relationship 623 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 3: dismount is there in three different formats, Kindle, audible as 624 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 3: well as paperback. And of course I'm a Dash Radio. 625 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 3: I do the Voice of Reason, I do Mansions, I 626 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 3: do the Zoe What Show. A Dash radio free radio 627 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,879 Speaker 3: app you download. I have two channels on their dash 628 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 3: talk X, which is their premier talk station, as well 629 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 3: as my own channel, which is called Voice of Reason 630 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,720 Speaker 3: Radio v o R Radio. Download that app and favorite 631 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 3: both those channels for me and y'all. 632 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 5: If you tune into Zoe show, make sure you have 633 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 5: your notepad in your pen ready, because sometimes I'm not 634 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 5: gonna lie. My brain hurts after listening to a few shows, 635 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 5: so get ready to take some of those and learn 636 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 5: some great insights. So again, we want to thank you 637 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 5: so much for being in her Space. 638 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I appreciate you, guys, so we 639 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 3: appreciate you. 640 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 4: Hey, lady, it's doctor Dom here from the Herspace Podcast. 641 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 4: Do you have a burning question you're dying to get 642 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 4: feedback on? Do you want an unbiased perspective on a 643 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 4: situation you're facing. If so, visit herspacepodcast dot com and 644 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 4: click ask doctor Dom under the start here option. Every Tuesday, 645 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 4: I'll choose a few questions and answer them at random. 646 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us today in her Space. Please note 647 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 4: that our show may contain conversations about self help, advice, 648 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 4: self empowerment, and mental health, but it is by no 649 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 4: means meant to be a substitute for an ongoing formal 650 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 4: relationship with a trained mental health provider. If you are 651 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 4: someone you know is in need of mental health care, 652 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 4: please visit the Therapy for Black Girls directory Psychology today 653 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 4: or contact your insurance provider. 654 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 5: If you liked what you heard and want to keep 655 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 5: the conversation going, connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and 656 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 5: Twitter at her space podcast or check out our website 657 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 5: at herspace podcast dot com. And before we meet again, 658 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:04,240 Speaker 5: repeat after me, There's something inside of me that's bigger 659 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 5: than any obstacle. 660 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 4: We'll see you next week, Lady.