1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind listener Mail. 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: My name is Robert. 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And today is Monday, 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 3: the day of each week that we read back messages 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 3: from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind email address. If 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch and maybe have 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 3: your own message featured on a listener mail episode, you 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 3: can reach us at contact at stuff to Blow your 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. All types of messages are welcome. We 11 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 3: especially like if you have something interesting to add to 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 3: a topic we have recently talked about. Let's see, rob 13 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 3: should we kick things off with some responses to our 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 3: series on authenticity? 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was good. 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 3: All right, I'm going to start with this message from Louisa. 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 3: Luisa says, hi, guys, I've enjoyed your Authenticity series so 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 3: very much. The part that really got to me was 19 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 3: that we somehow equate being authentic with being good slash virtuous. 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 3: You're pointing out that this is not necessarily true. Reminded 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 3: me of a Max Frish play called The fire Raisers. 22 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 3: In German, it's called Biedermann und d Bronzetifter, and if 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 3: you're trying to look this play up, I think sometimes 24 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 3: in English it's just called the Arsonists. Luisa goes on, 25 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 3: if you're not familiar with it, it's basically about a 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 3: group of men who set up in her Biedermann's attic. 27 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 3: He asks them what they are planning to do with 28 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: the gasoline they bring home, the incendiary devices they haul 29 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 3: up the stairs, and other such things. They tell him 30 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 3: outright that they are planning on setting the city on fire, 31 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 3: and he either doesn't believe them or pretends he doesn't. 32 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: It's a fascinating play, and I think it addresses some 33 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: of the complex issues you raised in the series. As always, 34 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: thank you so much for the podcast. It always leaves 35 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: me with so many interesting ideas. Best regards, Luisa. Thanks Luisa. 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: I'm I was not familiar with this play beforehand, but 37 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: I went and read up about it, so yeah. The 38 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: plot is, as Luisa describes, basically, like some guys, initially 39 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 3: posing as salesmen, talk their way into this guy, this 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 3: you know, regular guy's house and talk him into letting 41 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: them stay in the attic, and then they increasingly are 42 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 3: doing obviously suspicious stuff like you know, bringing in all 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 3: of this this stuff that would clearly be designed to 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 3: start fires with, and he ends up helping them and 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 3: all this and and it's pretty clear what they're doing, 46 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 3: but for some reason he just won't accept that they 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: are actually the arsonists who have been starting all the fires. 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: Hmm. Yeah, I'm not familiar with this work, but just 49 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: looking around, it looks like there have been numerous TV 50 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: movie adaptations of this over the years. I think a 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: number of them were for like Swiss television. But yeah, 52 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: it seems to be one of his works that has 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: resonated really well and has thus been adapted. 54 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: I think it is often taken as a commentary on 55 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: the rise of extremist political factions within democracies, with the 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: idea that like people would make excuses as the Nazis 57 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 3: are coming to power. It's like, oh, it's just talk, 58 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 3: They're not really going to do any of that kind 59 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 3: of thing, which I would argue is not a good 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 3: mindset to have. You know, if a political faction is 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 3: making scary threats, I would say take them seriously. 62 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: All right. This next one comes to us from Wayne. 63 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: Wayne writes sentence says, Hi, Robert, Joe and JJ, your 64 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: recent episodes on authenticity made me think of some issues 65 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: that artificial intelligence has been bringing up in the last 66 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: year or two. And just as a side note, we 67 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: did I hear from a number of people sort of 68 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: nudging us about the topic of artificial intelligence and AI 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: generated art and imagery and so forth in response to 70 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: these episodes. Anyway, Wayne continues here in particular, is AI 71 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: generated art really art? I feel like one quality of 72 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: good art is that it connects the viewer with the 73 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: mind and soul of the artist in an authentic way. 74 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 2: They had to make the art or they wouldn't be 75 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: true to themselves. With AI generated art, there is no 76 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: mind and soul behind it, where at best the average 77 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: version of the whole Internet. Whenever I see a really 78 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: cool image such as and Wayne shares an image here 79 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: and a Joe, You're going to jump in on it 80 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: in a second, he says. And then I found out 81 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: it's been created by a program like mid Journey, it 82 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: immediately feels empty to me. 83 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 3: Thanks Wayne, Yeah, thank you Wayne. So, folks, if you 84 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: want to look up the image that Wayne shared with us, 85 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: the one he attaches is oh, it's got a French name. 86 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: It's called a Teatra de opera spaciale or like theater 87 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 3: de opera spatial and it was created by mid Journey 88 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: based on prompts by someone named Jason Michael Allen. And 89 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: apparently this image was sort of in the news because 90 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: the prompt engineer here Alan submitted it to a digital 91 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 3: art competition. From what I understand based on what I 92 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: was reading, apparently being fully transparent, that the entry was 93 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 3: created by AI. So it wasn't like, you know, trying 94 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 3: to pass it off as something he had done with 95 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 3: his own hand, but saying, yeah, here's an AI image 96 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: that I prompt I created with prompts, and the image 97 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 3: won a prize, and so there was some controversy I 98 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: guess over whether it should have won a prize, whether 99 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 3: it really counts as art, you know, whether it should 100 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: have been allowed to enter, whether AI generated art can 101 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 3: should be allowed to compete with the art created by 102 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 3: human hands. But anyway, I would say yes, Wayne, at 103 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 3: least to some extent, I agree with you whether or 104 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: not we think AI generated creative objects like artworks and 105 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 3: music and fiction can ever have qualitative parity with with 106 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 3: works created by humans, whatever they're you know, the quality 107 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 3: like the technical qualities are that we appreciate in these artworks, 108 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 3: whether it can essentially pass as a human art work 109 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 3: or not. I think there is probably still going to 110 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: be a preference in most contexts to interact with art 111 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: created by humans simply for the reason that it was 112 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 3: created by a human. So I in this particular case 113 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 3: of the art work you mentioned, the Tatra de Opera spatial, 114 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 3: I enjoy it like I like this digital AI image 115 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: more than a lot of AI generated art that I 116 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: come across. A lot of times that these AI generated 117 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 3: images like that they even in a sort of direct 118 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: sensory capacity, a kind of lack character or personality. They 119 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 3: often look too smooth and kind of samey. But I 120 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: do like this image. However, despite the fact that I 121 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 3: like it and just like a pure sensory way, I 122 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: like the you know what the pixels are, Knowing that 123 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: it was made by an AI causes an emotional change 124 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 3: in me that does make me less interested in it. 125 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: And I would say one difference is that for a 126 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 3: scene like this, so this is like an imaginative scene 127 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 3: that looks like it could come from a kind of 128 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: a science fiction world, there are characters in it, there 129 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: is a setting that looks sort of unlike our world, 130 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 3: and it raises questions in the imagination. So when I 131 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: see an image of a scene like this, or really 132 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: any imaginative painting, it suggests a broader imagined world, Like 133 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: if the image was created by a person, I would 134 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: be tempted to wonder about the story behind it. You 135 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: see this scene, but I wonder what else is happening 136 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 3: in this imagined world, And that sort of depends on 137 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: the creator having a broader imagination. Now to qualify you 138 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: certainly could prompt the AI to generate more images from 139 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: the same world, and it would, you know, confabulate as needed. 140 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: But that is not as emotionally exciting to my mind 141 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: the same It's not the same way it would be 142 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: to imagine what else a human artist was imagining. 143 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, because to your point, there is no story behind it. 144 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: There is just a yawning, grotesque emptiness. And that is 145 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: That's ultimately what I keep finding myself confronting nowadays when 146 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: I look at something or listen to something as is 147 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: now currently in the news, to something created by AI, 148 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: even if to varying degrees, yes there is a human 149 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: I'm involved in the loop giving it words, deciding exactly 150 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: how it's going to be calibrated, again with varying degrees 151 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: of detail depending on the system, but still the results 152 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: almost always ring hollow in and of themselves, and if 153 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: they don't ring hollow in and of themselves, it's that 154 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,599 Speaker 2: additional knowledge that this was created by a machine that 155 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: just kind of like sucks the life of it in 156 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: the same way, in a similar way anyway that the 157 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: life might be sucked out of a piece of art 158 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: if you found out something just particularly awful about the 159 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: human behind it. Now, even then, depending on the artwork 160 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: and your exact relation with the you know, sort of 161 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: the algorithm of separating the author and the artist, it 162 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: might not change it too much, or it might change 163 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: it in a way where it was still interesting, you know, 164 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 2: at least you're like, well, this is a very disturbed person. 165 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: I don't really enjoy this work anymore, but it is 166 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: perhaps some interesting inside. There's no insight to be gained. 167 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: It's insight into an algorithm which is just completely devoid 168 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: of humanity on the surface of things. 169 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I might not say there's no insight to 170 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 3: be gained, but it's a different kind of insight, and 171 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 3: it's not like a it's not an exciting, warm, human 172 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 3: emotional insight. It's more an insight into systems and how 173 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 3: machines work, and things about the you know, the corpus 174 00:09:58,720 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 3: of the Internet and that sort. 175 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: Of yeah, yeah, things like oh well, this is what 176 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: this is, sort of like the tortured and re tortured 177 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: remnants of what happens when you get an aggregate of 178 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: the Internet's vision of reality and things like that. I mean, 179 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: there are a lot of interesting things going on and 180 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: how these systems are working and malfunctioning. But god, it 181 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 2: just at the end of the day, it kind of 182 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: ticks me off more and more. 183 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 3: Do you want to talk about the music you were 184 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 3: sharing with me? 185 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: I don't want to name the program or the website 186 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: that is used. I mean, it's out there. There's like 187 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: a Rolling Stone article about it. But yeah, we had 188 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 2: one of our listeners sent some examples to me and said, hey, 189 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 2: check this out. So of course, you know, I wanted 190 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: to check it out so then I could have some 191 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: frame of reference to talk about it. And yeah, it 192 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: was kind of horrifying because it did a much better 193 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: job than I expected, and yet at the end of 194 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: the day, like the things that came up with were 195 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: solidly mediocre. 196 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: Yes, that was my feeling as well. I was both 197 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 3: with incredibly impressed and really deflated so hearing these AI 198 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 3: created songs with vocals that had supplied lyrics. On one hand, 199 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 3: it was much better technically than it had any right 200 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 3: to be, like it was frighteningly passable as music actually 201 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 3: created by humans. On the other hand, I hated all 202 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 3: of it, like it's the kind of music that if 203 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 3: it was created by humans, I would not be interested 204 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 3: in listening to more. It had this this kind of 205 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 3: horribly generic personality free equality to it. 206 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I have all sorts of questions about how 207 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: it is ultimately sourced, what sort of guardrails are on 208 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 2: there currently, because I know with this particular system you 209 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: can't put in or you're not supposed to put in, 210 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 2: or it doesn't recognize or it's made not to recognize 211 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 2: the names of individual artists, and so yeah, I'm not 212 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: sure how all that works out exactly. And also I 213 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: just can't help but imagine some scenario like, Okay, if 214 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: you have an AI just endlessly creating new songs in 215 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 2: different genres, and then there is any level of like 216 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: legal right to those songs that it just turns out 217 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 2: constantly like what does that mean for just like the 218 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: legal aspect of song creation moving forward, you know, which 219 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: is you know, already a very crowded realm of tunes 220 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: and melodies and riffs and so forth. 221 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 3: Oh are you saying, like the musical equivalent of if 222 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 3: you just have a machine create the library of babble 223 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 3: and then file for copyright on every book in it, 224 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 3: so any book that a human rights afterwards already exists 225 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 3: in the library and that we already did that. 226 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like you have automated AI copyright trolls. Yeah, 227 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: and maybe there ends up being a situation where oh, 228 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: there has to be a human in the loop for 229 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: it to count. But then maybe there's just this one 230 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: human there's a name on a document, and that humans 231 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 2: in the loop, so that human has the copyright to 232 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: all the I don't know, I'm fine here, I'm this 233 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: is just technological anxiety, maybe to a large extent, And 234 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 2: maybe folks who have more insight on the legalities of 235 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: all of this can chime in and set us straight. 236 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I know, we have there are lawyers that listen, 237 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 3: and so I'd be interested to hear your perspectives. But 238 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: it seems to me that AI is currently stress testing 239 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 3: or testing the boundaries of our concepts of authorship and 240 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: intellectual property and all things like that. 241 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 2: Now, of course, if you listen to the great you 242 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: know all of the more positive and optimistic views, like 243 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 2: AI is supposed to be changing all of our lives 244 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: for the better, and AI is going to be our assistant, 245 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: our collaborators and help us overcome wicked problems in the world. 246 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 2: But I don't know. It seems like most of what 247 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: we see is it creating bad art these days? All right, 248 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 2: that's the end of my butler and rant there. 249 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: Sorry, all right, I think we're going to shift over 250 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: because we got a bunch of stuff in the mailbox 251 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: about Weird House cinema, so we need to address some 252 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 3: of that. First of all, this is just we don't 253 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 3: need to read this whole message, but we did get 254 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: a message from listener Jeff amending a previous comment about 255 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 3: the Netflix adaptation called Delicious in Dungeon. This is where 256 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 3: like some adventurers in Dungeons and Dragons basically are going 257 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 3: through a dungeon fighting monsters and then cooking them, and 258 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 3: so it was like a combination fantasy adventure show and 259 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: a cooking show. And Jeff had previously told us that 260 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: this show was appropriate for kids. Jeff says that was 261 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 3: a true at the time he sent the original message, 262 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: but since then some more episodes have been released and says, now, actually, 263 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 3: maybe maybe this is not a fully family friendly program. 264 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: Maybe parents check it out first. 265 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fair enough. We have encountered similar situations before 266 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: with shows where like the rating seems a bit high, 267 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: particularly with some anime type stuff where uh, you know, 268 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: in isolation, one episode may seem very cute and charming 269 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: and not you know, too serious, but then it'll go 270 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: off the rails in the next. So yeah, it's always 271 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: good to I've become the sort of person who always 272 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: goes and looks at the IMDb users submitted like parental guidelines, 273 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: or sometimes I'll check out does the Dog Die to see, 274 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: you know, some of the potential trigger points on given 275 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: pieces of media and so forth. 276 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, what was the movie we watched for a Weird 277 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: House that had appearance guide warning about a character being 278 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: implied to nude off screen? 279 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh yeah, implied nudity. Yeah, that one definitely sticks 280 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: with me. Sometimes the youth Again users submitted parental tips 281 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: for films and TV shows on IMDb. Sometimes it can 282 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: be quite hilarious, but oftentimes it broad and more broadly speaking, 283 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: it can be very helpful for helping to choose something 284 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: for your own viewing, for family viewing, and also for 285 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: weird House sometimes. I mean that's one of the first 286 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: things I check when we're thinking about watching something for 287 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: Weird House, just to see what sort of stuff happens 288 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: in the movie and it's. 289 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: Going to be a gross bummer. 290 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I just sort of to see, Okay, is 291 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: there anything here that just probably disqualifies it? And if so, 292 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: then I'm just gonna move on to something else. Though 293 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 2: again it's user submitted, so it's not all It doesn't 294 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: know everything either. Yeah, all right, This next one comes 295 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: to us from Pat. Pat writes in and says Rob 296 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: Joe the Weird House Dune set was great, A lot 297 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: of fun diving into the dune world and the world 298 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: of David Lynch more Lynch movies, please one missed point. 299 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: Saint Aliah of the Knife is played by Alicia Witt, 300 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: familiar to my fellow Hallmart cheesy Christmas movie fans, and 301 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 2: a creepy character from Walking Dead. 302 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: Oh okay, I I don't really know Walking Dead. I 303 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 3: do watch some cheesy Christmas movies seasonally with Rachel. That's 304 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 3: kind of a fun thing we do sometimes. But I'm 305 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 3: more familiar with like the bad Netflix Christmas movies. I 306 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 3: don't think I know the Hallmark ones as much unless 307 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 3: there's some overlap there. 308 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I fell off of watching Walking 309 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 2: Dead before her character was introduced. And as far as 310 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: Christmas shows go, Yeah, I have to have a ghost 311 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 2: or a monster in my Christmas movies. It's just how 312 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: I am at this point. Sorry. 313 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 3: With some of the Christmas movies, you can kind of 314 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: imagine a monstrous plot behind them, like it's unstated. But 315 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: these are characters that are all like I don't know, 316 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: like virtual personalities created inside inside, like a virtuosity kind 317 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 3: of scenario, that are about to become sentient and it 318 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: could happen any moment. 319 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 2: We'll see. I'll allow that a nice sci fi element 320 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: is good, but yeah, otherwise it's like I'm watching a 321 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: Christmas movie and it needs to be a fantastic element. 322 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: It needs to be magic or monsters. It's not that 323 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: big of an app It can be a Grinch, it 324 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 2: can be a ghost of Christmas past, president or future. 325 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: It can just be the existence of Santa Claus. That's 326 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 2: why again I applaud the ted Lasso series for creating 327 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: a universe in which Santa Claus definitely exists. And I 328 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 2: think that's something we have to remember anytime we watch 329 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: an episode of ted Lasso. This Santa Claus definitely exists 330 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 2: in this universe. Who don't know what will happen next. 331 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 3: Like he's physically at the North Pole. 332 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is a This is a universe in 333 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 2: which Santa Claus is real, is at the North Pole, 334 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: does fly around every Christmas in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, 335 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: And so you know that magic is real, that magic 336 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: is possible. So who knows? Every time I go into 337 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: a ted Lasso episode, I'm like, what's what's going to 338 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 2: happen next? The gates of Hell could open and it 339 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: will be in keeping with what we've established, though it 340 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: never does anyway, pack continue expected it. One point you 341 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: made referred to over emphasizing the power of the spacing 342 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: Guild disagree. A major theme of the novels is the 343 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: political problem of the overlordship of the Guild in space travel. 344 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: Every group of human culture in Herbert's universe struggles with 345 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: this at the highest levels. When Paul Assum's control over 346 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: the Guild by threatening Spice production, he becomes a stronger 347 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: emperor in all of Herbert's history. This leads me to 348 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 2: one problem I have with the Newsdoom in that he 349 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: plays down this aspect. The story falls apart if it 350 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: is not taken that Aracus is the only planet with Spice, 351 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: a galaxy wide empire powered by the Guild's ability to 352 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: provide transportation. All of the film adaptations downplay the galactic 353 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: addiction to Spice. Herbert's books make it very clear that 354 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 2: all of the nobility are addicts. Science fiction fans know 355 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: that intersolar systemic travel is a silly idea. There is 356 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: no extent theory that would allow this. The fun of 357 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: science fiction is in what if, in this case, the 358 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 2: Space and Guild's ability to fold space thissability is an 359 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: offshoot of spice addiction. 360 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: Hmm, okay, Well, to defend what we said, I don't 361 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 3: think we were making the case that David Lynch should 362 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 3: not have emphasized the spacing Guild. I think we were 363 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 3: talking about that there are like, because the novel is 364 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 3: so huge and the world is so big, you kind 365 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 3: of have to like pick what you're going to focus 366 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 3: on in a movie adaptation, unless the movie adaptation is 367 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: going to be like a you know, ten hour mini 368 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 3: series or something. But you know, if you're going to 369 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 3: do something within movie length range, you've really got to 370 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 3: You've got to just select things to zoom in on 371 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 3: and leave some other things by the wayside. So the 372 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 3: Lynch movie really picks the spacing Guild to focus on 373 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: the expense of focusing on like the Benny Jesrett and 374 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: other things, whereas the newer movies focus more on the 375 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 3: politics of the Benny Jesret. They're different choices, and I 376 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: think the Benny Jesert focus works really well in the 377 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 3: new movies. 378 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, he had to the team 379 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: in general had to decide on what they were going 380 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: to focus on, and they focused on the Beni Jesterrett 381 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: and they did a really good job with them. Yeah. 382 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 2: I love the space and Guild. I would have liked 383 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 2: to have seen more from them, but you just have 384 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: to make these choices in adaptation. By the way, and 385 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: I say this in part because I've gone back and 386 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 2: started rereading Doom, but I believe it's actually the Holtzman 387 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 2: effect that allows for the folding of space, and that 388 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 2: spice enables the guild steersman or navigator to just choose 389 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: the safest, safest path through space. But solid point on 390 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: the life extending properties of the spice. It is said 391 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 2: in the books especially that like, if you can afford spice, 392 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 2: you are probably on spice in part to prolong human life. 393 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 3: Yes, now, do I remember correctly that the whole thing 394 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 3: about the guild navigators needing spice, as you say, it 395 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 3: allows them to see the safest path through folded space. 396 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 3: It's like it's essentially that the spice give grants some foreknowledge, 397 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: like you can kind of see the future, right. 398 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the way I always think about it again, 399 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 2: it comes back to we can't have computers. We need 400 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: human minds that can do the things that computers would 401 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: other otherwise do, in this case safely navigate a complex system. 402 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 2: And the spice allows the guild steersman or navigator to 403 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 2: sort of see just far enough in the future to 404 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: avoid catastrophe, and so it's you know, it's not substantial 405 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: for sight, but it is just enough to avoid the dangers. 406 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: And so it's often pointed out that the Guild kind 407 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: of takes the safest path through anything. So it's a 408 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: safe path. It doesn't mean it's the most direct path. 409 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean it's the fastest. It may be quite slow, 410 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: but this is how they navigate things. 411 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: It's not complete knowledge of the future, but it's like 412 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 3: a Spidey sense. 413 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, right, Pack continues. You also mentioned that David 414 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 2: Lynch weekly refers to the greater galactic culture of Herbert 415 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: Stune universe by mentioning Ix the Benny Fleelax the Rishi's 416 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 2: Lynch also downplays the lanstrad and Chom does Venue even 417 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: mentioned Chrome Chom. One weakness of all the film adaptations 418 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: is that they gloss over Herbert's politics. Disagree the novels 419 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 2: are all about politics. The Fremen or free Men, represent 420 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: a difference in culture with the rest of the Empire. 421 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 2: The empire is feudalistic, balanced with a corporate superstructure. When 422 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 2: Paul creates a new empire, he sweeps away ancient life patterns. 423 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: The feudalism of Herbert's galactic empire is made clear by 424 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 2: many references to the butleran Jahad. One cannot create a 425 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 2: machine which mimics the human mind. What replaces machines in 426 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: such a society human labor and feudalism. While Herbert does 427 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 2: not explicitly explain the roles of Ix and Rieschi's in 428 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: this structure, he does invite the reader to think as 429 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: Lynch did solid point. Yeah, there's a great deal of 430 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: political intrigue that the movies just generally don't get into, 431 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 2: that generally can't get into. Like a lot of Dune fans, 432 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: I really love the banquet scene in the book because 433 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 2: of this, because you get to see a lot of 434 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: just even the planetary factions interacting with each other. But 435 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: I think this has only come to life on screen 436 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: for this by mini series. Yeah. 437 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 3: One thing I like about the politics of Dune is 438 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 3: that it represents a complex world in which, as in 439 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 3: the real world, like, there is a balance of power 440 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 3: and there are different factions competing for power, so as 441 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: where you know, in like the Star Wars universe, you 442 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 3: don't often get a lot of that. It's just sort 443 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: of like the empire is on top. They are essentially 444 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 3: all powerful except for the rebellion fighting against them. So 445 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 3: they're like two forces basically, and they're in direct conflict. 446 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 3: You know, that gets filled out more in the extended 447 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 3: universe stuff, but you know, the original picture is pretty 448 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 3: like two has two poles of power, whereas in the 449 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 3: Dune universe you get to see, for example, that like 450 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 3: the Emperor is very powerful but has to manage a 451 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 3: lot of factions that can all like come against him, 452 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 3: and they all have power over him even though he 453 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 3: is technically the boss. 454 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, pac continues another myssed another area missed 455 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: in the film the great schools of Herbert's universe, the 456 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: Bennie jester At, the Bennie Leelax, the Mentats, the Silk School, 457 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: and the Ganas. The magic present in this universe is 458 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 2: explained by Herbert as intense development, training and education and specialization. 459 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 2: A favorite idea I have concerns Paul's duel with Fade 460 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 2: in the film. As in the book Fade Ratha attempts 461 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: treachery by poison. Paul is a Mentat and the Quisach Haatarak. 462 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: He would have seen the attempt with presidents, he would 463 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 2: have sneered as with his benijesurate training, he would be 464 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: immune to poison. Herbert was not perfect now on this note, 465 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: so to be clear, I had to go back and 466 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 2: reread the final Knighte fight, and this sweat into me 467 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 2: like starting the book over again. But Paul and his 468 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: mother do anticipate poison, and while like Paul's faction does 469 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 2: briefly discuss his fighting Fade is something that is dangerous 470 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 2: and unnecessary, he does in fact use his powers to 471 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 2: babolize the slowing poison that Fade manages to nick him with. 472 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 2: But he also he also somewhat underestimates Fade to a 473 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: certain extent. So, just to read a quick fragment from 474 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: this part of the novel, quote, Paul remained silent, probing 475 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: with his inner senses, examining the blood from the wound. 476 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: Finding a trace of soporific from the Emperor's blade. He 477 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: realigned his own metabolism to match this threat and change 478 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: the molecules of the soporific, but he felt a thrill 479 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: of doubt. They've been prepared with soporific on a blade. 480 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: A soporific nothing to alert a poison snooper, but strong 481 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 2: enough to slow the muscles it touched. His enemies had 482 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 2: their own plans within plans, their own stacked treacheries. 483 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 3: Oh okay, so it's not a killing poison. It's something 484 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 3: that is supposed to be subtle enough to be not 485 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 3: noticed by someone who does normally notice poisons. But it 486 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 3: would slow Paul down in the fight. 487 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, to sort of throw him off his game in 488 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: a very tint situation with a number of factors political 489 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 2: and otherwise. Yeah, so I'm not sure it was one 490 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: hundred percent in the bag at this point for Paul. 491 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: I think he gambles. He doesn't take the safest path, 492 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: you know, as the Guild takes the safest path and 493 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,719 Speaker 2: navigating the stars. But that's one thing that makes him 494 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: a trades you know, he is going to do the 495 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 2: daring thing and the times reckless thing instead. Anyway, Pat 496 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: closes out, as always many things. 497 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 3: Pat Okay, Well, I think we have to close it 498 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 3: there for today, but we have a bunch more messages 499 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 3: to get to, so we'll have to address them next week. 500 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 3: So tune in again next Monday for more listener mail. 501 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we're happy to continue to discuss these various topics, 502 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: continue to geek out on done if necessary. So yeah, 503 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: right in, we'd love to hear from you. Just a 504 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 2: reminder that Stuff to Plow Your Mind's primarily a science podcast, 505 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Mondays are when 506 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: we do our listener mail episode, So right in. 507 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 508 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 509 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 3: with feedback on this side or any other, to suggest 510 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 511 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,239 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stufft blow your 512 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 513 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 514 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 515 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.