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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: That is the funniest thing anyone has ever said on

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Speaker 2: this show, and we're going to have to I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously we've already edited it out because it's also definitely

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Speaker 2: an actionable threat against what I can't believe, Gava, is

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Speaker 2: that you even had their home address.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what a bit you know. You learn these things

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Speaker 3: when you're a doctor. It's important to know as much

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Speaker 3: about someone as.

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Speaker 2: You can m hopefully anyway, welcome back to part two, everybody.

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Speaker 2: This is Behind the Bastards, a podcast where every week

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Speaker 2: we get as close to getting our guests, doctor Cavajda

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Speaker 2: in trouble with the authorities as possible without actually doing

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Speaker 2: it thanks to the kind of happened one of these days.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me back, Tava. Yes, Robert, how

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Speaker 3: do you?

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Speaker 2: How do you feel so far talking about bitemark analysis?

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Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting. I think forensic quote unquote

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Speaker 3: science is a fascinating topic because it's such an important

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Speaker 3: part of our legal system. And as we discussed in

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Speaker 3: the first episode, if you haven't listened to it, you

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Speaker 3: should go back and listen to it. Like, why are

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Speaker 3: you listening to this one? What do you do? Your maniac?

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Speaker 3: But I kind of dig it too, So if that's

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Speaker 3: your thing, then I'm down with it. But also a

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Speaker 3: short I think it's really fascinating to like see how

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Speaker 3: some of these things that aren't really based in the

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Speaker 3: science as I would see it and as I'm used to,

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Speaker 3: how it's grown and how it's used unfortunately in these

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Speaker 3: really tragic cases. And I'm assuming you probably have more

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Speaker 3: of people being, you know, sent to prison for crimes

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Speaker 3: that did not commit and and it's it's a really

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Speaker 3: interesting time to do it too. And I don't know

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Speaker 3: if you can go into this. You probably aren't, but

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Speaker 3: you know, because we're O. J. Simpson died recently, and

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Speaker 3: in his case, there was a lot of DNA evidence.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not like an og Simpson like official by

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Speaker 3: any chance. I don't know much about that case, but

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Speaker 3: I know there was DNA evidence, and it seems like

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Speaker 3: it was around ninety four when it was still pretty

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Speaker 3: new to people, and I don't think people really knew

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Speaker 3: that much about DNA evidence at the time, so I

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Speaker 3: think like it could have made a pretty big difference

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Speaker 3: his case, maybe if it was done now as opposed

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Speaker 3: to then, for example, And that's like part of forensic

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Speaker 3: science as opposed to like bitemarks, which in maybe fingerprinting,

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Speaker 3: which seemed a little bit softer in that regard of science.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's really fascinating. I'm not bummed out yet,

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Speaker 3: although there.

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Speaker 2: Are tragic there's some sad aspects. I just got sent

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Speaker 2: to prison for thirty years. Who was innocent? Yeah I

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Speaker 2: sound now, I sound like a fucking monster, thank.

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Speaker 3: You very much.

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Speaker 2: Just an innocent man.

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Speaker 3: We're just innocent men like that. One mean, but I do.

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Speaker 3: But but I do think it's a really interesting topic

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Speaker 3: and I think it's a super important one. So I'm glad. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you're doing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, Actually, Kava, I have I have

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Speaker 2: a different opinion about the O. J. Simpson case than

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Speaker 2: a lot of people. I half watched that TV show

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Speaker 2: about it a few years back, and I was I

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Speaker 2: was kind of fucked up at the time. But I

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Speaker 2: I currently believe that Ross from Friends was the murderer.

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Speaker 2: That would make sense, that would answer the way he

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Speaker 2: kept saying. Juice just didn't sit right with me.

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Speaker 3: Quick quick aside, Did you know that O. J. Simpson

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Speaker 3: had like a prank show? Yeah? And like it was

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Speaker 3: this terrible, terrible prank show made no sense. It was

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Speaker 3: so silly and stupid, and like the catch line was, hey,

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Speaker 3: you've been juiced, like when he come out.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny, man, that's that's that's great.

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Speaker 1: Robert likes to bring up that Ross from Friends played

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Speaker 1: Robert Kardashian and that Ojy.

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Speaker 2: One of the funniest pieces of casting ever.

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Speaker 1: Because like get up, often it might be just a

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Speaker 1: Roman and if the Roman Empire, was it your Roman Empire?

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Speaker 2: Well, the problem is that specifically Ross from Friends shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be allowed to play other people because he's always just

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Speaker 2: gonna be rot You. I can't believe you as Robert

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Speaker 2: Kardashian's screaming juice at your friend. I believe the guy

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Speaker 2: who played OJ is OJ. He was great, but you're

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Speaker 2: just You're always Ross from Friends. Now, I'm sorry, I'm not.

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Speaker 2: You're a millionaire. It's fine.

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Speaker 3: He's okay with it, I'm sure. Yeah, like Leonard Nimoy

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Speaker 3: is okay or was okay being Spock. I think at

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Speaker 3: some point he got used to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he made peace with it. Judging by the titles

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Speaker 2: of his biography, you.

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Speaker 1: Can't be anything else but one thing. That's what you're

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Speaker 1: doing to this person to ross from friends.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's what he is, and he's a murderer. I

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Speaker 2: think so.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: We just finished our episode talking about people versus Marx,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of the the this this court case

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Speaker 2: that really helps to like provide the popular grounding for

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Speaker 2: bitemark analysis as a thing that's real. Now, this case established.

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Speaker 2: At the time that this case was adjudicated, the established

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Speaker 2: practice was that scientific evidence should not be accepted into

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Speaker 2: a court case unless the said evidence was generally accepted

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Speaker 2: by the relevant scientific community. This was known as the

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Speaker 2: Fry test. Based on the court case that established the standard. Again,

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Speaker 2: we're all talking about like matters of precedent here. Bitemark analysis,

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Speaker 2: like the kind performed by Veil and Levine in this

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Speaker 2: case was not based on generally accepted odontological science, because

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Speaker 2: why would odontologists have done this right? Like, it's not

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Speaker 2: really relevant to most of like dentistry even to like

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Speaker 2: trying to do this thing right. It's just there wasn't

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Speaker 2: an established kind of practice around how you should do this.

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Speaker 2: But an exception was made to the Fry test based

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Speaker 2: on the reasoning that bitemark matching was so simple any

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Speaker 2: lay juror could look at a cast of a bite

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Speaker 2: and a cast of a perps teeth and tell if

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Speaker 2: they matched. Because the eyeball test could tell if a

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Speaker 2: bite mark matched a set of teeth, it should be

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Speaker 2: admitted into court case right, And like you can see

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Speaker 2: how like the stereotypical layman who's you know, dumb might

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Speaker 2: buy that. But also I feel like maybe this is

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Speaker 2: just a matter of like it happened at a different time,

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Speaker 2: because when I read that, I want to scream inside,

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Speaker 2: like no, they can't, No, they can't. Why would you

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Speaker 2: think people could match a bite to a cast of teeth.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't make any sense at all.

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Speaker 3: Fuck you. I think our faith in people has really

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Speaker 3: just gone down in general, is what I'm hearing here.

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Speaker 3: And I can't disagree with it. But it does, on

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Speaker 3: the surface seem very reasonable. It's like, Okay, well, this

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Speaker 3: is a very simple imprint. If this person has a

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Speaker 3: really weird, like shit mouth, you should line it up

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Speaker 3: with these things. It seems like it would make sense.

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Speaker 3: It's like to the general public, I could totally see that.

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Speaker 2: I understand, like how this whole disastrous train of events

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Speaker 2: like got moving right, How the momentum got built up

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Speaker 2: behind it, so you know, the eyeball test. This is

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Speaker 2: going to wind up being kind of like it. It's

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Speaker 2: sort of a disaster that this gets established as a

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Speaker 2: way to verify whether or not a new forensic science

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Speaker 2: should be trusted, because it creates this very dangerous situation.

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Speaker 2: After Marx, a whole host of new kinds of experts

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Speaker 2: start coming forward using different kinds of pattern matching forensic

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Speaker 2: techniques like matching shoe prints or tire trends or bits

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Speaker 2: of hair based on visual signs. Alone, this bitemark analysis

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Speaker 2: case people versus Marx, it opens the floodgates on a

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Speaker 2: lot of nonsense getting introduced as forensic science. And the

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Speaker 2: positive side of this is we get a shitload of

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Speaker 2: TV shows based on forensic analysis. Right, this is where

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Speaker 2: all of them come from, this idea that there's all

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Speaker 2: these every crime scene, there's all these little clues and

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Speaker 2: you can, you know, you could, any little thing can

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Speaker 2: match the shoeprints. You can do this and like, none

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Speaker 2: of this stuff works. It either doesn't work at all

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Speaker 2: or it doesn't work as well. As the experts who

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Speaker 2: make their living based on convincing you it works perfectly

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Speaker 2: are going to claim and because they've now reset the

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Speaker 2: standard from forensic science has to be generally accepted in

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Speaker 2: the field to like, well, if it's an eyeball sort

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Speaker 2: of thing, you can introduce it. You know, it looks

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Speaker 2: good enough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like what we talked about too before,

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Speaker 3: which is like I think, like in general, in terms

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Speaker 3: of law, they if something's been set once, then it lasts.

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Speaker 3: It's this precedent. But like, on top of that, like

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Speaker 3: judges are probably more willing to allow things than to

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Speaker 3: keep things out of the trial if they don't understand it.

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Speaker 3: Because if someone can present a you know, convincing enough

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Speaker 3: argument that sounds like they know what they're talking about,

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Speaker 3: I can see why a judge would be like, oh, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this guy sounds smart enough. Well we'll leave it in

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Speaker 3: and the jury can do what they will with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It makes me think like rewatching Star Trek the next Generation,

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Speaker 2: as I'm usually doing. We're very lucky that all of

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Speaker 2: those screenwriters went to Hollywood rather than decided to do this,

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Speaker 2: because they could have created some technobabble bullshit that would

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Speaker 2: have locked a lot of people away. Yeah, whoever was

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Speaker 2: writing Jordie's dialogue could have been very dangerous in another career.

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Speaker 2: This is the second show I've.

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Speaker 3: Done with you where we get into the Star Trek.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we should just do a whole episode

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Speaker 3: on Star Trek the Next Generation.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing I'd love more. But I feel like there's

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Speaker 2: also a million of those shows. Look listeners, find a rich,

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Speaker 2: crazy person who will pay for me to do a

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Speaker 2: show on Star Trek the Next Generation, and I'll do it.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like there's there's a lot of that anyway.

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Speaker 2: So after Mars, the burden of proof when you're introducing

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Speaker 2: science into a lot of these cases has shifted drastically.

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Speaker 2: No longer do experts have to show their processes in

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Speaker 2: line with an established scientific field. The burden of proof

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Speaker 2: is on the defense attorney to create doubt against the

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Speaker 2: claims of an expert. The successive dentists like Levine and

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Speaker 2: Veil opened the floodgates to a whole host of men

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Speaker 2: who read and less qualified, pushing to convict people based

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Speaker 2: on analysis that is even less scientific. In the reality

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Speaker 2: of bitemark analysis is that it was always questionable. Harward,

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Speaker 2: the Navy man that Levine got convicted after arguing that

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Speaker 2: only he could have bit Terresa Peronne was ultimately proven

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Speaker 2: innocent and released after losing thirty years of his life

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Speaker 2: to the criminal justice system, and a lot more people

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Speaker 2: lose precious time as a result of this bullshit, sometimes

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Speaker 2: all the time that they had thanks to the fountain

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Speaker 2: of forensic conmen enabled by people v.

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Speaker 3: Marx.

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Speaker 2: Fabricant cites this infuriating story in his book Junk Science Quote.

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Speaker 2: The Connecticut Supreme Court adopted the eyeball test and state v.

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Speaker 2: Mark Read a rape conviction involving the use of hair microscopy,

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Speaker 2: a technique that matches two hairs together through visual observation

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Speaker 2: of the interior characteristics of human hair. Hair matching evidence

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Speaker 2: was admissible not because it had been scientifically validated, but

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Speaker 2: because jurors were free to make their own determinations as

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Speaker 2: to the weight they would accord the expert's testimony and

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Speaker 2: light of the photograph and their own powers of observation

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Speaker 2: and comparison. Ten years later, DNA proved that the jurors

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Speaker 2: powers of observation had led to Mark Reid's wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 2: He was innocent. The negroid hair a racist and anachronism

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Speaker 2: still used in forensics today. Match to Read was in

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Speaker 2: fact the pubic hair of his accuser, the white woman

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Speaker 2: who had identified Read a black man as her rapist.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's disgusting. Oh my god. Yes, that's

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Speaker 3: just real bad. That's just just give me a moment.

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Speaker 2: Let's all sit with that for a second.

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Speaker 3: Damn it. That's so rough on so many levels.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's I mean part of why. And again,

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Speaker 2: the primary reason this is bad is because a lot

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Speaker 2: of innocent people are getting convicted. The other reason it's

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Speaker 2: bad is because outside of these quacks doing hair matching,

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Speaker 2: there are people who are really trying hard and using

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Speaker 2: scientific methods to try and catch murderers and rapists, which

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Speaker 2: is import And this also it makes it impossible to

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Speaker 2: trust them, you know, the way that we should be

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Speaker 2: able to. That's part of why that like this is

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Speaker 2: so comprehensively vile. What's happened with this industry of grifters

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Speaker 2: that have subsumed forensic sciences?

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Speaker 3: Can I ask a question, and yeah, this is probably

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Speaker 3: not something you're privy to, but do they ever in

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Speaker 3: your reading or research for this, did you ever come

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Speaker 3: across a case of an expert like in one of

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Speaker 3: these like soft sciences here forensic sciences that was then

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Speaker 3: later like asked about a case that had been overturned

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Speaker 3: because of DNA and did they ever like did they

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Speaker 3: still try to fight it or were they like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was a mistake, we made a mistake. Was there

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Speaker 3: any response from them?

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Speaker 2: Like usually usually no response. I can't find a single

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Speaker 2: case of a guy being like, oh, yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I horribly fucked up and my entire life has been

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Speaker 2: a lie.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess And when you say it like that,

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Speaker 3: I guess it makes sense why they don't do it,

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Speaker 3: but like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, I don't know, because it's tough

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Speaker 2: because like, again, there are real you have to if

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Speaker 2: somebody is out there committing rapes and murders, they should

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Speaker 2: be identified and stopped. And there are going to be

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Speaker 2: different scientific techniques that are developed over time that will

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Speaker 2: allow to make those kinds of identifications. And just because

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Speaker 2: the people doing it are human, they will fuck up

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Speaker 2: sometimes without it being them being irresponsible, just because people

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Speaker 2: are imperfect, right the same way that doctors will fail

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Speaker 2: to save patients who could have been saved because you know,

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Speaker 2: that's just that's the reality of the world. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, when I read about cases like this

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Speaker 2: with people doing this bullshit, Like you think you hear

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Speaker 2: hair matching, you think like, oh, well, they're probably getting

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Speaker 2: DNA from the hair and match again. No, they're looking

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Speaker 2: at two hairs and saying, well, this is clearly a

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Speaker 2: negroid hair. That guy should do as much prison time

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Speaker 2: as the guy who got wrongfully convicted.

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Speaker 3: You know, if COVID taught us nothing else, it's that

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Speaker 3: you have to the people you should trust the most

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Speaker 3: in terms of the expert opinions are the ones that

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Speaker 3: admit when there is limitations and when there's some doubt.

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Speaker 3: When anyone tells you this is the exact answer to

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Speaker 3: a novel or new issue, you have to take that

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Speaker 3: with a grain of salt, because nobody wants to bring

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Speaker 3: on like that, that person onto their show, Like No, CNN, Fox.

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Speaker 3: They don't want to bring someone onto the show that

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Speaker 3: said like, well, you know, there's a lot we don't

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Speaker 3: know yet, we're still trying to figure it out. They

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Speaker 3: bring on the person that's like, oh, the answer to

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Speaker 3: this is don't rub your eyeballs, And that's one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent the way that's going to keep you from getting

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Speaker 3: sick with Covid et cetera.

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Speaker 2: It's the same thing that happened. You know, we just

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Speaker 2: had this case where Israel struck an Iranian embassy in

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Speaker 2: Syria and Iran responded by firing missiles and drones into Israel.

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Speaker 2: And online when all this started, the number of people

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Speaker 2: who are like, this is World War III, right, is like,

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Speaker 2: you can wait. You can wait to know. Like, not

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Speaker 2: that it's not important to care about this, but you

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Speaker 2: sitting at home in fucking Saint Louis, Missouri, you don't

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Speaker 2: need to have an opinion about what the fallout for

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Speaker 2: this is going to be the night that it happens.

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Speaker 2: Just give it a day or two until we know

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Speaker 2: some more about what's actually happening, right, you know that's

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Speaker 2: that's I I people.

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Speaker 3: Sophie has a look on her face. I think I

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Speaker 3: know what she's going to add here.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm waiting to see if you'll do it.

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Speaker 3: Listen, I'm not going to correct the way he says Iran.

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Speaker 3: You know what, I petitioned that we now we now

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Speaker 3: refer to Iran as Iran and Iranian because I love

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Speaker 3: Robert that much. Okay, you hear that out there? So

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Speaker 3: people are out there stop messaging, please, please please stop

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Speaker 3: messaging me to correct the way Robert says Iran. I

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Speaker 3: I love the way he says it. I've given up.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you. In response to that,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make it. I'm going to make a

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Speaker 2: grand gesture that I think might be able to heal

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Speaker 2: some of the damage in this world. Austin, Texas now

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Speaker 2: a suburb of Tehran. Oh, I think it's a good idea.

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Speaker 2: I think the tacos that are going to come out

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Speaker 2: of this will be incredible.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, the food that will come out of us. Listen,

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Speaker 3: you can't take the food from us. You can say

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Speaker 3: a lot about us, but you can't take our food

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Speaker 3: from us. And you put us in Austin, I bet

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Speaker 3: you will make some magic happen.

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Speaker 2: I know the kinds of barbecue science that will come

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Speaker 2: out of this set still be a marriage outstanding.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, back to bite mark analysis. So in those early publications,

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Speaker 2: a bite mark analysis that before they actually got this

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Speaker 2: sort of up and running as a quote unquote science,

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Speaker 2: Levine and his cohorts had had acknowledged that there are

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Speaker 2: issues you can't really analyze bites in soft tissue. The

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Speaker 2: way that you can analyze bites in cartilage, which is

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Speaker 2: why they were so excited about the Marks case, right

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Speaker 2: because it was a good what's called a three dimensional

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Speaker 2: bite that they could actually cast. But as soon as

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Speaker 2: bite mark analysis is accepted as forensic science, they dropped

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Speaker 2: the whole Well, soft tissue bite marks aren't really you

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Speaker 2: can't really analyze them reliably, and just started going a

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Speaker 2: hog wild with identifications. Veil, the dentist from the Marx case,

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Speaker 2: testified two years later, this time as a certified member

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Speaker 2: of the AAFS Forensic Odontology Branch, about a bitemark and

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Speaker 2: a young murder victim's thigh. This was exactly the kind

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Speaker 2: of bite that earlier had been acknowledged as a bad

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Speaker 2: fit for analysis, but now the court praised the superior

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Speaker 2: trustworthiness over scientific bitemark analysis rather than less reliable kinds

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Speaker 2: of forensic science. The reality is that there was very

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Speaker 2: little science of any kind around bite marks. Once the

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Speaker 2: nucleus of forensic dentists had there any placed for themselves

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Speaker 2: in the AAFS, they set up a forensic board and

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Speaker 2: locked the field into a system where newbies apprenticed themselves

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Speaker 2: to established physicians and the practice of bitemark analysis became

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Speaker 2: a thing of wisdom handed down rather than a thing

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Speaker 2: of empirical study. And part of the problem here, part

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Speaker 2: of what makes this an emposts for science to develop

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Speaker 2: out of this. Right, it is possible in certain cases

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Speaker 2: to match teeth to a bite mark. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to say that's a thing that you could never do,

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Speaker 2: but the number of cases in which you could actually

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Speaker 2: do that responsibly is a tiny, tiny fraction of the

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Speaker 2: number of cases that involve a bite. There's no incentive

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Speaker 2: financially to be honest about that, to say this is

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Speaker 2: not a good candidate for bitemark analysis. If your job

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Speaker 2: is selling bitemark analysis, right, right, the thing like your

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Speaker 2: financial interest is in saying every case, oh yeah, I

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Speaker 2: can tell you some good stuff about that bitemark.

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Speaker 3: Right. It's not like these people I imagine, you know,

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Speaker 3: like there are expert witnesses in different fields of science,

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Speaker 3: and there are people who come from other places and

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Speaker 3: they get paid for it, and you could argue about that,

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Speaker 3: but they're coming from places where they already have like

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Speaker 3: jobs doing other things. They work at a university where

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Speaker 3: they are like a professor and they do research, and

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Speaker 3: then or there are a doctor in a case and

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Speaker 3: then they have their own practice and then they're asked

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Speaker 3: to do this. If your field exists solely to be

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Speaker 3: an expert witness essentially, then that seems strange to me.

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Speaker 3: That does seem like a bit problematic. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: assume defence lawyers will use that argument, but I could

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Speaker 3: see that being questionable.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times they don't know to where they

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Speaker 2: don't feel like they can because you know, again in

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Speaker 2: their heads, like I'm just some lawyer. This is a doctor,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's a It causes problems. And again we

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Speaker 2: should note that like in any of these cases, forensic

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Speaker 2: evidence is not the only evidence. There's other stuff going

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Speaker 2: into it. But a lot of times forensic evidence is

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Speaker 2: what cinches these bad convictions. And this is like acknowledged

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Speaker 2: at the time by like the prosecutors and shit that like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was that bitemark analysis that got us this conviction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So again, what you have with this kind of growing

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Speaker 2: field is you've got this board at the AFS that

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Speaker 2: are able to certify people as like these are the

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Speaker 2: real bite mine analysts. And this becomes like once you're

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Speaker 2: in that, the only way to become a bitemark analyst

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Speaker 2: is to get approval from these people who are already

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Speaker 2: very biased in such a way as to make this

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Speaker 2: be a profitable industry. And obviously, mentorship is a necessary

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Speaker 2: part of any medical field, any scientific discipline, really right,

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Speaker 2: And that's not a bad thing. It's not bad that,

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Speaker 2: you know, most doctors have mentors when they're younger doctors

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Speaker 2: with more experienced doctors. But what you get with these

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Speaker 2: forensic boards is more akin to a medieval guild than

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Speaker 2: anything we would associate with modern science. There is no

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Speaker 2: kind of opened peer review structure built into the field,

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Speaker 2: and the only people watching out to see if people

403
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Speaker 2: are practicing utter bunk are other people who have a

404
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Speaker 2: vested financial interest in maintaining the reputation of their field.

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Speaker 2: This becomes a problem when con men find their way

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Speaker 2: into practicing bitemark analysis, and that brings me to the

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Speaker 2: hideous story of Michael West, a dentist from Hattiesburg, Mississippi.

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Speaker 2: West decided to become a bitemark specialist when he realized

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Speaker 2: there was a potential fortune to be made in becoming

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Speaker 2: the Amazon dot Com bite forensics at the height.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's such as a terrible phrase. Terrible phrase. Oh

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Speaker 3: my god, cove it.

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Speaker 2: Do you know much about like conducting an autopsy and

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Speaker 2: how much time that takes and stuff.

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Speaker 3: I've worked on cadavers, but I've never actually been on

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Speaker 3: a true full autopsy. I assumed it's a very long time.

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Speaker 3: It's a long process, it's a lot to do.

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Speaker 2: It is pretty involved, and so it should have seemed

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Speaker 2: weird to people that at the height of his career

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Speaker 2: in the early nineties, West was conducting between twelve hundred

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Speaker 2: and eighteen hundred autopsies a year, And most experts will

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Speaker 2: agree is a lot for a dentist, super a dentist,

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Speaker 2: for a dentists, that is quite a few autopsies for

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Speaker 2: a dentist.

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Speaker 3: Wow, it sounded like a lot.

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Speaker 4: And then I remember, also dentist.

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Speaker 2: He's a dentist. Yeah, this is not a guy who

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Speaker 2: is like an expert of autopsy or.

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Speaker 3: Like, you know, not like a dentist in the doc

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Speaker 3: holiday old West, where that meant he can be like

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Speaker 3: a surgeon as well, like like a modern day Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Wow, now I know what you're saying here, Kava, Are

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Speaker 2: there even that many murder cases where somebody gets bitten?

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Speaker 2: And the answer is no. But West developed an ingenious

435
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: method for turning any run of the mill death into

436
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 2: a homicide with bitemarks that he could match to whatever

437
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 2: victim he was hired to look over. And I'm going

438
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 2: to quote from journalist Radley Balco, writing for Reason dot

439
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 2: Com describing this West's methods. Kava, you are about to

440
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 2: have a conniption fit here quote a fluorescent black light

441
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: flicks on. West is now employing a much ridiculed technique

442
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 2: he invented for identifying bite marks, which he modestly calls

443
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: the West phenomenon. He claims that by using a black

444
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: light and yellow goggles, he can find bitemarks, knife serrations,

445
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 2: and other tears and abrasions to the skin that no

446
00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 2: other expert can see.

447
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 3: Okay, can we start by the fact that he calls

448
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 3: it the West phenomenon a douchebag?

449
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 2: Oh shit, Oh my god, that should get you flung

450
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: into the sea.

451
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Like naming it after yourself with this

452
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 3: ridiculous like it has to be yellow goggles, Like he's

453
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 3: like studied UV lighting or some shit like that. What

454
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 3: a terrible I don't know. I don't need to know

455
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 3: any more about him. I don't like him.

456
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: Oh you're about to hear a lot more so. Once

457
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: he's found these bite marks, West can have a judge

458
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: compel whoever's been accused in the case and get a

459
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 2: cast made of their teeth. Right then, he simply takes

460
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: the cast and he uses it to put bite marks

461
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 2: on the dead body, thus creating the evidence that he

462
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 2: was hired to find. There are video tapes of him

463
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: doing this during an autopsy West conducted on a twenty

464
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 2: three month old baby named Haley olive O. Quote West's

465
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: hand then enters the frame holding a plastered dental mold

466
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: taken earlier that day from Jimmy Dunn, who was accused

467
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: of killing this kid. Using the replica of Duncan's teeth

468
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: as a weapon, West repeatedly presses and jams the front

469
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: bite plate directly into Olivo's cheek. Over two minutes, he

470
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: does this seventeen times. At six fifty seven, he starts

471
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 2: dragging Duncan's mold across olive O's face, beginning near her lips,

472
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 2: then scraping the plaster teeth down her face to her jaw.

473
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: He does this for another minute. Wes's next moves to

474
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: Olivo's elbow and uses the cast to impress Duncan's dentition

475
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: into an old Bruce hospital record show she suffered weeks

476
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: before her death. With the lights out, West continues to

477
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: jam the plaster cast into the girl's cheek, elbow, in arm.

478
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: Over the course of the twenty four minute video, West

479
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: pushes the cast of Duncan's teeth into the girl's body

480
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 2: at least fifty times.

481
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: I know I don't usually ask you to like skip

482
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: ahead for me, but can you blink twice? If it

483
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: ends badly for this motherfucker?

484
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: It definitely doesn't. So, I mean, it doesn't end well

485
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 2: for him, but it doesn't end the way.

486
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: It should issue him.

487
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: It's should being flung into the sea.

488
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 4: It should hoping for from from flumping.

489
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 3: It should aim, it should This is the story to

490
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 3: end with him tripping and falling into a bubbling cauldron

491
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 3: of herpes.

492
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: A cauldron would be.

493
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 3: Great, Yea.

494
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 1: The cauldron of herpes feels valid here, and that's kind

495
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: of the end I was hoping for.

496
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 4: Okay here, because I'm deeply disturbed.

497
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 3: Real quick though, I'm sorry, someone was recording him doing this,

498
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: like there's hitten.

499
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: This is an autopsy. They're they're like recorded, yeah, okay,

500
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: and this is so, this is like it's reviewed and

501
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 2: like this is part of what starts this guy kind

502
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 2: of being unwound as an expert. But in the in

503
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: this specific case, the footage that shows him creating bite

504
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: marks in the corpse was not entered into evidence, so

505
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: it had no role. In the initial trial of the

506
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: mine accused of murdering Hayley, his charge was raised to

507
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: capital murder, and the bite marks were cited as one

508
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: of the reasons why. But in the time between his exam,

509
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: between the exam West conducted and the actual trial over

510
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: this death, West was discredited due to reporting around his

511
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: deeply questionable methods, including this video. So the prosecution just

512
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: shopped around for another dentist. They tried Lowell Levine, but

513
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 2: he was familiar enough with west shady ass behavior to

514
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: turn them down. He's like, nah, man, I'm not that dumb,

515
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: Like absolutely not.

516
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe shady, but not that shady. Yeah.

517
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 2: Eventually they found a dental examiner who'd looked over photos

518
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: West had taken of the fraudulent exam he'd carried out

519
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 2: and confirmed that the defendant had left the bitemarks. Balco writes,

520
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: despite West's disintegrating reputation and the fact that the bitemark

521
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: evidence was derived from his work. Louisiana Fourth Judicial District

522
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: Judge Charles Joyner ruled in nineteen ninety five that the

523
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: video contained no exculpatory evidence favorable to the defendant, a

524
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: finding hotly disputed by all the forensic specialists consulted for

525
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: this article, and that therefore prosecutors didn't need to hand

526
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: it over. The state maintained at first that the defense

527
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 2: is somehow hoping to drag doctor West into this case

528
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: in order to create ancillary issues for the jury, but

529
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: by nineteen ninety six, prosecutors werelented and gave defense attorneys

530
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: the video, but Duncan's attorneys never showed the video to

531
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: their own dental examiner. This point would have become crucial,

532
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: since the bite marks were the only physical evidence used

533
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: to elevate Duncan from a negligent guardian to a lethal

534
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: child rapist.

535
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 3: I don't understand, though, Like okay, I have so many questions. One,

536
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: did this West guy not? I mean, why would he

537
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: do that knowing he was filming it? Did you think

538
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 3: no one was going to see it?

539
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 2: I think he thought he was explaining as he's doing

540
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: it basically like I'm testing, you know, this is where

541
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: I see the bite marks or whatever like.

542
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: But he's making the bite marks right.

543
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

544
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: I think he thought nobody, nobody was gonna really care

545
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: to check, and they didn't for a while.

546
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 3: Oh.

547
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: People that are like that level of bold feel untouchable.

548
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: And I think he thought he could just get away

549
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: with doing this, and it sounds like he did.

550
00:27:59,560 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

551
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 2: West and the other dental examiner. There's another guy in

552
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: the room with him there during that autopsy guy.

553
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 4: An examiner guy too.

554
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

555
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: They fall out of favor because journalists like Balco start

556
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 2: writing about their methods. But West continued to testify as

557
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: an expert until two thousand and one. What stops him

558
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: being cited as it brought in an expert in court

559
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: cases is that in two thousand and one, a defense

560
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: lawyer decided to test him by sending him a cast

561
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: of an active defendants teeth and photos of bitemarks from

562
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: a closed solved homicide case. West confirmed that the dental

563
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: mold matched the photos of the bite marks, so you know,

564
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: basically there's an active case going on. The defense lawyer

565
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: sends him a cast of the defendant in that case

566
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: Keith Teeth, and then photos of bitemarks from a completely

567
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: different homicide that has already been solved, and West is like, oh, yeah,

568
00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: this guy made those bite marks, and like, yeah, I.

569
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: Mean, why would you believe that the defense lawyer is

570
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: trying to make you look dumb and you just help them.

571
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: It doesn't make this person seems it's insane to me

572
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 3: that this person was able to do this.

573
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 6: Well.

574
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 3: They also it's really incompetent.

575
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: What's really insane is how little the fact that he's

576
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: obviously a fraud helps the people that he had helped

577
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: to get convicted. In two thousand and three, the Mississippi

578
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: Supreme Court held that quote just because doctor West has

579
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: been wrong a lot does not mean without something more

580
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: that he was wrong here in a trial for another

581
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: man he'd helped to convict in Brock.

582
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: It's right twice today. So is doctor West.

583
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Jimmy Duncan, the guy convicted in the case

584
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: where he's fucking dragging a bite a toothcast across a

585
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: dead baby, still on death row as of twenty twenty three,

586
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: And it's one of those things where like, again, there's

587
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: other evidence a lot of the time, but in Duncan's case,

588
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: the only physical evidence was from West right, Like, it's.

589
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: So, how has that not been how? I mean, maybe

590
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: this is ongoing, but like they don't how come the

591
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: Innocent Project isn't working with him on that?

592
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: They are?

593
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 3: They are.

594
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: It's just like this, the fact that, like something seems

595
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: clearly fucked up number one, doesn't mean that you're going

596
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: to get court rulings that revisit you know, those cases

597
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: like it's it's just not it's a pain. It takes

598
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of these a lot of

599
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: people who are exonerated as a result of the projects worked.

600
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: It can take years or decades, you know.

601
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 3: Right, and he might have done the case though no

602
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: other knowledge, but like you know, with with what evans,

603
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: you know, if that's the only evidence, then it's highly suspect.

604
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: And and you know, certainly there are a lot of

605
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: cases where he matches a bite to a perp who

606
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: did do the murder. But that also doesn't like he

607
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: could still be lying. There's just other evidence, right, Like,

608
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 2: you know, the cops got the right guy and they

609
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: brought him in and he just agreed with you know

610
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: what the cops already thought. And in that case, he

611
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: was right because that guy happened to do it. But yeah,

612
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: it gives you an idea, just like how fucking sketchy.

613
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: A lot of this is now. One thing we should

614
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: all know at this point about scientific disinformation is that

615
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: if left unchecked, it spreads inevitably. Just like the sponsors

616
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: to our podcast who are always spreading out there in

617
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: the world.

618
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: Always fantasticizing getting out there like in cancer.

619
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: That's why we love them.

620
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: For your money, we're back.

621
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: So the fact that scientific disinformation spreads if left unchecked

622
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: is why you have to fight vigorously against people who

623
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: want to deny basic facts of reality for their own profit.

624
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 2: If you ignore, say an anti vaxed doctor claiming vaccines

625
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: cause autism to make a fortune for himself, in a

626
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: few years you might have presidential candidates screaming about vaccine

627
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: chips orf i e. Remectin in schools full of kids

628
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: with whooping cough. The field of forensic science has the

629
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: same issue.

630
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: I would even go even further than that and say,

631
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: you don't even know. It could be something even more subtle,

632
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: like some doctor who says, or I'm sorry, not doctor,

633
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 3: but some you know, famous actress says putting a jade

634
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: egg in your huha helps with such and such there

635
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: is Now I feel there's a direct line to that

636
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 3: that anti VAXX president. You know now I used to

637
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 3: not care that much. Now I do. Any bit of

638
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 3: this misinformation can lead eventually to this cascade. Eventually you

639
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: get RFK Junior like killing sim own babies. You know,

640
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 3: this is how it happens.

641
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: That the derangement, Like, yeah, it meant it's a kind,

642
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: it's a kind of cancer. It acts that way at least.

643
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: And for an example of just how bad it can get,

644
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: I want to turn now to the story of doctor R.

645
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: Pod vas Now on paper, Kava R. Pod Voss is

646
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: as legit as it gets. This guy's got a PhD

647
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: in forensic anthropology. He works with the University of Tennessee's

648
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: world famous body farm. He even has a Ted talk,

649
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: and most of that Ted talk sounds pretty reasonable to me,

650
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: notably not a scientist, but it sounds good. It's a

651
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: lucid look at how human decomposition is impacted by various

652
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: factors and how cadabra dogs often labradors, work by smelling

653
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: different chemicals that are a product of said decomposition, and

654
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: then about seventy percent of the way through his ted talk,

655
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: we get this.

656
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 6: Our next step is to develop our own Labrador and

657
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 6: the electronic version. We may not be good at a lot

658
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 6: of things, but we can nail those acronyms. Okay. This

659
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 6: instrument was designed specifically for two purposes, one to track

660
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 6: the chemical plume and the second to give the operator

661
00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 6: an idea of which area has the highest concentration is

662
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 6: where the body is is where the concentration will be

663
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 6: the highest, and there's the plume MiG weights that moves away.

664
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: So what he is selling here, and the reason he

665
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: brings up an acronym is that his device that is

666
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 2: basically a mechanical corpse sniffing dog, is called the Labrador,

667
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 2: and the Labrador in this case is an acronym for

668
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: lightweight analyzer for buried remains in decomposition, odor recognition, And

669
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: to be honest, that's a pretty good acronym.

670
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: Like he did a.

671
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 2: Salad art.

672
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 3: And they came up with something.

673
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, they made it happen. The device looks like a

674
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: bulky metal detector. It looks like a metal detector with

675
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 2: extra shit glute on it. Right, if you were again,

676
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: say you were doing a Star Trek episode and you

677
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: needed a future metal detector. You'd get a metal detector

678
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,479
Speaker 2: and you'd throw some shit on it. You know, That's

679
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: how this thing looks. It's yeah, anyway, his device is

680
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: this is bullshit, right, But it makes sense that something

681
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: like this might work. Right if a dog can sniff

682
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: out of buried cadaver, and dogs can definitely do that,

683
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: we should be able to somedate design a device that

684
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: can fulfill the same role electronically. You know that that

685
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 2: makes sense, and perhaps someday we will. But doctor Voss's

686
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: gizmo does not use anything that we would call regular science. Instead,

687
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: it functions on the principle of a divining rod. Do

688
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 2: you know anything about divining rods or dowsing, kave.

689
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,479
Speaker 3: We're talking about the old old school, like dust bowls,

690
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 3: wash fucking are Yeah, that's great, that's fucking great.

691
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: If you haven't been pilled on this particular bit of esoterica.

692
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: Dowsing or divining rods go back a long time, at

693
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: least about five hundred years, and variations of the practice

694
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 2: probably predate that. The basic idea is that you get

695
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: either a Y shaped piece of wood or two curved

696
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: copper rods, or you know, there's a couple other variants

697
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 2: of this, and you walk around looking for water or

698
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: whatever underground, and when the two rods cross or the

699
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: y shape stick gets pulled down, that means that it's

700
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 2: right below you. Right when the rod or rods move

701
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,959
Speaker 2: or whatever, that's a sign that you're standing above whatever

702
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: you're looking for. And dowsers have claimed over the years

703
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: they can find everything from underwater underground water to buried

704
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: treasure to corpses. And this is done in a couple

705
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 2: of different ways. I'm not going to labor on all

706
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: of the different ways. It is generally considered officially to

707
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 2: be a pseudoscience because repeated studies have not been able

708
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: to show that dowsing is any more accurate than random chance.

709
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 3: It seems I could be easy to prove that, yeah. Yes.

710
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: The explanation for why the sticks cross or get pulled

711
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: or whatever is something called the idio motor effect, and

712
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: this is when suggestions, beliefs, or expectations cause unconscious muscular movements.

713
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: Most people are probably broadly familiar with the concept what's

714
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 2: happening here is not wildly different from what happens with

715
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 2: cops and drug sniffing dogs right. While dowsing has its

716
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: origins primarily in finding water, which is why it's also

717
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: often called water witching. Doctor Voss is one of a

718
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: number of people who think it can and should be

719
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 2: used to find human remains. He always frames this as

720
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: focused on both giving the families closure in the case

721
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 2: of hikers who died somewhere off trail and their bodies

722
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: are never found, and of course aiding in murder investigations.

723
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: And before we get into this grift, and it is

724
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 2: a grift, I want to cite one paragraph from an

725
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: article on doctor Voss in Mother Jones. In June twenty

726
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: twenty one, scientists from the FBI Laboratory, George Mason University,

727
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: and the US Army Criminal Investigation Command conducted a controlled

728
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 2: blind test to evaluate the ability of dowsing rods to

729
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 2: detect buried bones. A control group of participants was asked

730
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: to look at nine holes and to identify which ones

731
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 2: they thought contained bones. A different group did the same

732
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: thing using dowsing rods, which they didn't have experience using

733
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: for this purpose. According to the study, the scientists determined

734
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 2: that neither method worked. In an email exchange with Mother Jones,

735
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 2: doctor Voss called that study useless and in his opinion, wrong,

736
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 2: though it is matters because he gets to train a

737
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: lot of cops and forensic investigators. He wrote back in

738
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: his email that he teaches his students proper dowsing and

739
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 2: the seventeen scientific prints that quote make the rods work,

740
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: which took me years to find out.

741
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Well, if your whole grift is based

742
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 3: on doing what a dog does but not as well,

743
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: like what a what a lame grift? Like we are

744
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 3: have dogs for that, Like, what's just.

745
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: What are the scientific seventeen of them? What are those

746
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: scientific principles?

747
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, the fact that he's a Ted Talk and that

748
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: probably goes into that. I mean, it just goes to

749
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 3: show that, like you not everyone who gets a Ted

750
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 3: Talk is fucking really an expert on anything. I guess

751
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 3: you got. I mean that's a little disappointing. Actually, I

752
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 3: kind of assumed they'd have some level of like, you know,

753
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 3: criteria that has you have to give a Ted Talk.

754
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: You have to assume the Ted Talk booker person or

755
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: whatever isn't a forensic scientist. It would be weird if

756
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: they were and this guy is a forensic scientist with

757
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: impressive credentials who works, who treat trains FBI agents.

758
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 3: So what is he saying his again, it looks like

759
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 3: a metal detector with his extra shit.

760
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: To dows for corpses. He has them walk around with

761
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: copper rods where there are bodies buried so that they

762
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: can find them.

763
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 3: I mean, okay, I bite, what is the I want

764
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 3: to know, like, what is it about the dead body?

765
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 3: What pheromone? Because you know what is true? Like for example,

766
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: like there are researchers off the coast the pharallon islands

767
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: here in San Francisco who study orcas when they attack sharks,

768
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 3: and when a shark's body dies, it releases they think

769
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: a certain pheromone that acts as a warning sign to

770
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 3: other sharks to keep them away. So there is pheromones

771
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: that have been theorized to be released after death. Is

772
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 3: that what he's saying is that the body's releasing certain

773
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 3: odors or hormones that this device is picking up.

774
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 2: Bodies do release certain like odors that you couldn't Again,

775
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,439
Speaker 2: that's what like a cadaver dog is smelling, right, even

776
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 2: if you can't like physically smell out, even smell a

777
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: dead body. He's right in front of you. If it's

778
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: like buried or something, dogs can find them sometimes.

779
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: Right.

780
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 2: What he's doing is he's out on the body farm

781
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: where they take dead bodies and they put them in

782
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: various situations to see how decomposition works and also to

783
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 2: train like investigators and stuff. And so he's walking around

784
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 2: places where he and others no bodies are buried, and

785
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 2: they are dowsing and eventually finding them. And what's really

786
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: probably happening is a mix of they know there's a

787
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 2: body somewhere, there's obvious signs that a body was buried,

788
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: and the ideo motor effect takes care of the rest. Right,

789
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: That's what I think is actually happening here. But what

790
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: he is telling people is that you can dowse for corpses.

791
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: And you can't. You just can't. It's not real science.

792
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: But again, if it was real science, he wouldn't say

793
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: I spent years figuring it out. He would say, here

794
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: is all of my pure reviewed research showing why this works. Right,

795
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: there would be a body of this would who people

796
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: would dedicate their lives if you could walk around with

797
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: copper rods and they would somehow point out dead body

798
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: he's underground. Someone would dedicate their life to figuring out

799
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: why that would be interesting.

800
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 3: Yes, people would be doing it all the time, by

801
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 3: the way, because people go on beaches looking for like

802
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: loose change. Imagine how much loose change people do go

803
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 3: dowsing a lot.

804
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: So again, there's not data like to prove that this works,

805
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: but it doesn't matter because Voss is an instructor at

806
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: the National Forensic Laboratory in Oakridge, Tennessee. Here's how that

807
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: Mother Jones reporter attended his class where he's teaching police officers,

808
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: and here's how he described it. There are no official

809
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 2: dowsing rods at hand, but that doesn't matter. You can

810
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: use the flags Voss offers, bend them like you would

811
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 2: coat hangers. Fred Ponds, a private detective from Miami with

812
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: a dark mustache and beard, gets right to it. He

813
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: tears the red plastic rectangles off two stakes and spaces

814
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: his hands to measure about twelve inches of straight steel,

815
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: then bends the remaining metal into handles, holding the stakes

816
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: like six shooters. He walks over one of the suspected

817
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: grave sites, the stakes cross. He does it again. They

818
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: cross and again they cross. I'm not kidding, Ponce says,

819
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: marveling that his di y gravefinder seems to be working.

820
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: And again, reasonably we would go like, well, you're at

821
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: a body farm. You know, they buried bodies around here.

822
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: Most people who bury corpses probably aren't good at like

823
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: hiding all of the evidence and the fact that the

824
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: fact that you're trying to convince me this is real science,

825
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: and you could say, literally, any metal you bend works

826
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: for this, what else works that way?

827
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: I don't expect I don't okay, I don't expect that much,

828
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 3: but like we're expecting like an eighteenth century technology to

829
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 3: help us, yeah, yeah, whatever, to help us find these

830
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: these corpses. I feel like we've gone wrong. I feel

831
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 3: like we've done We've like law enforcement's gone astray.

832
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might be fair to say that at this point,

833
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: reasonable people, and only reasonable people listen to this podcast

834
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: might say that sounds like nonsense. But doctor Voss's class

835
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: is among the most loved portions of the ten week

836
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 2: training course at the National Forensic Academy. It costs students,

837
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: mostly crime scene investigators from agencies in forty nine US states,

838
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 2: twelve thousand dollars of your tax dollars, so that's cool.

839
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: The academy itself is widely respected. The Washington Post called

840
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 2: it the Harvard of Hellish Violence. Voss's techniques are used

841
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 2: all over the country by real law enforcement officers in

842
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: spite of the fact that a lot of this is

843
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: just obviously bullshit. And for evidence of that, I'd like

844
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 2: to turn back to the Labrador, which we opened this

845
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 2: portion of the episode, discussing that July fifth, twenty twelve.

846
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: TED Talk is not one of the more more popular

847
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: TED talks. It's got like fourteen thousand views at present,

848
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: but the fact that Vos got a TED Talk might

849
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: suggest to some people that his Labrador was a real product.

850
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: As far as I can tell, it is not. The

851
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 2: device never launched commercially. When asked about this, Doctor Voss

852
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: always claims he has a patent on the device, as

853
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: if that matters. Mother Jones cites Diane France, director of

854
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: the Colorado Human Identification Laboratory. She notes, you can patent anything.

855
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that it works, It just means the

856
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 2: design has to be different from other products. Diane noted

857
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: that she's never seen the Labrador, let alone been able

858
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: to test it. Mother Jones could only find one expert

859
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 2: who claimed to have used the device, and that expert

860
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 2: was Michael Hadzel, president of the nonprofit Peace River Canine

861
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: Search and Rescue Association from Inglewood, Florida. He claims to

862
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: be field testing the device and that it has a

863
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 2: sixty percent success rate, but did not provide any data

864
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: on this whatsoever. And I will note that a guy

865
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 2: testing a device without backup and saying it works sixty

866
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: percent of the time is remarkably close to saying it

867
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 2: works about as well as the flip of a coin.

868
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,959
Speaker 3: Super super bullshit aeron no error rates study again, getting

869
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 3: back to that thing we talked about in the first

870
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: episode error rates study, this is like, this is exactly

871
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 3: the flip of a coin, and no one will ever

872
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 3: do a study on on this because it's nonsense and

873
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 3: there's only it's a device that doesn't exist.

874
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: Obviously, as we as I've noted repeatedly, there's a lot

875
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 2: of problems with the way that police use dogs forensically.

876
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: But we know that dogs can smell this stuff, and

877
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 2: part of how we not is we have studied their

878
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 2: noses extensively. Like we have, there's data on how sensitive

879
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: a dog's nosis. Because it's science, because people noticed dogs

880
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: seemed supernaturally good at something, and rather than just saying, well,

881
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: that's good enough for me, they figured out the underpinning

882
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 2: reasons why. Because that's that's how real science is done.

883
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

884
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: The patent application itself lists the device. Actually, this is

885
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: the application I think for a successor device to the Labrador,

886
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: that's the improvement on. It lists the this this corpse

887
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: sniffing gadget as having two L shaped antenna that allow

888
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: it to channel electromagnetic waves. In other words, he basically

889
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: built a divining rod in the form factor of a

890
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: metal detector.

891
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 3: I've updated. I'm now call fairse you're gonna device.

892
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 2: I found an analysis. One of the best write ups

893
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 2: of this guy as a con man comes from the

894
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: website PCT missing dot org. The PCT is the Pacific

895
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 2: Crest Trail, right, this is it's the same. The Appalation

896
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: Trail is kind of the other one in the US.

897
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 2: You've got these two massive, long, continent wide trails that

898
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 2: like for a lot of people, it's their whole life

899
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: ambition to do the PCT, or to do the the

900
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: the Appellation, or to do both of them, right, And

901
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: because I don't know, parts of it seem appealing to me,

902
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: and then I think that's how tired i'd get.

903
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 3: Oh my god, no, God, bless them. I'm so glad

904
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 3: somebody wants to do that.

905
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very impressive. Obviously it can be dangerous, right,

906
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 2: people die doing this with some regularity, not the obviously,

907
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: not most people who do it. But it's not uncommon

908
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: for people to go missing. And so there's this website,

909
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 2: pct missing dot org that that both covers these missing

910
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: report person's cases, and what they're doing here is kind

911
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: of as journalists trying to advocate to families that are

912
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 2: being preyed upon by doctor Voss. Quote. The full patent

913
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 2: makes more references to divining rods, and during the Casey

914
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: Anthony trial in twenty eleven, doctor Voss admitted to dowsing

915
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: for graves as a hobby. Now, when I read that,

916
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: I said, what the fuck? And I clicked the hyperlink

917
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: on the words Casey Anthony trial, and that hyperlink took

918
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: me to a Casey Anthony trial. Fancam YouTube account that

919
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 2: includes cut up videos of doctor Voss's testimony during the

920
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: Casey Anthony trial. Where he was employed by the prosecution

921
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: as an expert witness when they were trying to prove

922
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: that that Toddler's dead body had at one point been

923
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: in the trunk of Anthony's car. So the prosecutors want

924
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: Voss to show that because he could find chemical evidence

925
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: of like the chemicals released by a decomposing body, that

926
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 2: the dead kid had been in Anthony's trunk. Right, That's

927
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 2: why they have him on.

928
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 3: Right.

929
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: Here's how Mother Jones describes Voss's performance in the Case

930
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 2: Anthony trial. Voss claimed that an air sample from the

931
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: trunk revealed high levels of compounds consistent with human decomposition

932
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: based on his research. An analytical chemist from Florida International

933
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: University testified that Voss's testimony wasn't backed up by scientific evidence,

934
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 2: and that many of the compounds Voss identified could have

935
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: been omitted by food wrappers and other trash recovered from

936
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 2: Anthony's trunk. Anthony was acquitted in part because of doubts

937
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 2: about the air sample from the car. Legal experts set

938
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: at the time. Now that's all fucked up and bio.

939
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: Before you get into it, I don't know anything about

940
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 2: the Casey Anthony trial. If you have a strong opinion

941
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 2: about that. I'm not making an opinion on the verdict

942
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: of that trial. What I am having an opinion on

943
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 2: is doctor Voss's testimony during that trial, because even being.

944
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,959
Speaker 3: A part of it, why is this guy a part

945
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 3: of it?

946
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: I should not be in a fucking court room unless

947
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 2: he's being charged as a con man.

948
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 3: No matter how dumb you think things are, it's just

949
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 3: like they get dumber, Like are their children running the courts?

950
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 3: Why is this happening? Why is he even a part

951
00:48:58,800 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 3: of it?

952
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: He's got again, he has really good paper qualifications, but

953
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: when he actually gets on the stand, it's so fucking funny.

954
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: And I'm actually gonna play you a bit from this

955
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 2: video collage of his testimony during the trial.

956
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 6: At vas r P A. D v Ass. I think

957
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 6: I can make in a logical non logical, but I

958
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 6: can make a conclusion. You know, it's just another corroboration

959
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 6: of what my nose tells me is correct.

960
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 5: Did you do any other instrumental examinations of the carpet

961
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 5: piece that you significant ones?

962
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 6: I don't think I would call any. We don't know

963
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 6: where the source is. It could have been from decomposition

964
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 6: or it could have been from gasoline.

965
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 5: Is they're a specific, established chemical odor signature for human decomposition,

966
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 5: A clear and specific one to human decomposition only.

967
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 3: I do not think.

968
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 7: So you are not a chemist, correct, You're not an

969
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 7: analytical chemist. Correct, you're not a biochemist.

970
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 8: Correct, And therefore you really can't testify as to the

971
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 8: chemistry and the makeup of things of which you have

972
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 8: no experience.

973
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 6: Correct, well, if I've never looked at something, Yeah, I

974
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 6: suppose that's true to certain examines.

975
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 7: But you do not list what you got your PhD in?

976
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 7: Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury

977
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 7: what you got your PhD in anthropology?

978
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 6: Now that was the hearings.

979
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 3: Now, look anthropology.

980
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: Is it's so funny.

981
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 3: I like that.

982
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: That's such a good cross examination because like, look, there

983
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: are actually a lot of anthropologists in forensic science, right

984
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: that that there's a lot of things about anthropology. It's

985
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: a discipline that are relevant, especially when you're talking about

986
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 2: like digging up people who were murdered years ago and

987
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 2: buried and like all that. So obviously forensic scientists are useful.

988
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 2: What they are not is chemists. And if you are

989
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: as an anthropologist, claiming to have developed this like novel

990
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,919
Speaker 2: technique of measuring chemicals that are specific to human decomposition.

991
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to need to see that somebody who knows

992
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 2: chemistry professionally has been involved in that process.

993
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 3: Backed this up. Oh my god, it's so disheartening. The

994
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 3: thing about it that's kind of a bummer is that, like,

995
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 3: you know, I get it if you would come across

996
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 3: on the stand as being like really knowledgeable, authoritative, but

997
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 3: he doesn't even seem like that. He can't even like

998
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 3: fake it that well, like you know, gonna be a grifter,

999
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 3: you gotta he's not even good at it.

1000
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 2: It's gotta be both that like a lot of cops

1001
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 2: are just not all that bright, and also I assume

1002
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,879
Speaker 2: one to one he's charming enough that like he makes

1003
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: you feel like he knows what he's talking about, But

1004
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 2: he does not look good up on that stand.

1005
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 3: No, he does not look It's a bad grift. I

1006
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 3: don't know how it's worked at all for him.

1007
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 2: I mean, you got it's remarkable, Jesus, Yeah, he sure did.

1008
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: A consummate professional doctor Voss doesn't just make his money

1009
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 2: teaching CSI guys and consulting badly on court cases. He

1010
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: also reaches out to families who have lost loved ones.

1011
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,720
Speaker 2: Some of these people do speak highly of him. Dlana

1012
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 2: Hall Bodmer's sister Gina, went missing in June of nineteen

1013
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 2: eighty with a man named Stephen Epperley. Her body has

1014
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: never been found, but Gina is sure doctor Voss located

1015
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: it because his device signaled a frequency he matched to

1016
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 2: her specific corpse in eight locations, which he claims means

1017
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: she was dismembered and buried in eight different areas. Now,

1018
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: Epperley had already been convicted in a rare nobody homicide.

1019
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 2: I think he's actually one of the first nobody homicides

1020
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: convictions in Florida. But you know, what they're looking for

1021
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: is like where was she buried?

1022
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 3: Right?

1023
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 2: And he says like, well, I found evidence she was

1024
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: cut up and buried in these parts, and they find

1025
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: some bone fragments near where he picks out, And I

1026
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 2: haven't found any confirmation that they were human. The last

1027
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 2: article I read and said they were like still being analyzed,

1028
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 2: but it seems like if they were, he would be

1029
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: trumpeting that. So maybe again, if you spend a lot

1030
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 2: of time in the woods, you run into a lot

1031
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 2: of bones. Sure, right, and I've definitely seen bones are

1032
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, yeah, that could belong to It's just

1033
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 2: a little shard of bone. I can't identify what it is.

1034
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 2: I assume a doctor, a scientist of some sort could.

1035
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: But is he reaching out to these people directly or

1036
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 3: are they coming to him?

1037
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 2: For I think it's a mix. But a lot of

1038
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: times I do think he does reach out, especially if

1039
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: it's like a big case. He's also you know, famous

1040
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: enough that some people who are desperate to find their

1041
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 2: lost loved ones, you know, go to him.

1042
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 3: This is still happening. He's still doing this. This is something, Yes,

1043
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 3: this is still going.

1044
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 2: That's why that Pacific Crest Trail website is covering him,

1045
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: because he's been sort of preying on people who have

1046
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: lost loved ones on the trail.

1047
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 3: Wow.

1048
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 2: And again, I we just brought up this case. This woman, Lana,

1049
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: whose sister was murdered in nineteen eighty. She's clearly someone

1050
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 2: who is mourning a lost loved one and desperately hopes

1051
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: to get some kind of closure using what she thinks

1052
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: is science. Right, she also is looking to Again, this

1053
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 2: is very sad. Part of why she's working with doctor

1054
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: Voss is that he's kind of convinced her that they

1055
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 2: by figuring out how to use this device and using

1056
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 2: her sister's case as a case study, they could also

1057
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 2: use this thing to find abducted children, right, And this

1058
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: presents an opportunity to Delana where she thinks, like, maybe

1059
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: I can make something good come out of my sister's death.

1060
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 2: And I understand that impulse, right, But this is not science,

1061
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 2: and it's not doctor Voss isn't going to help anybody

1062
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 2: like she has been taken for a ride by him,

1063
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: and I mean, I think there's pretty gross of him.

1064
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 3: There's more realistic science behind the Ghostbusters proton packs than

1065
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 3: there is this device that he has, and they also

1066
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 3: look cooler and like this is and he's able to

1067
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 3: sort of use this. It's just it's I mean, I'm

1068
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 3: just it's amazing how much money you can make it

1069
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 3: in this world with a grift. It's a amazing.

1070
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 2: And what's even more amazing is doctor Voss's patented Find

1071
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 2: Your Dead loved One service, the primary sponsor of this

1072
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: episode of Behind the Bastards and Cava. When doctor Voss

1073
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: came to me and said, I want to sponsor a

1074
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:17,240
Speaker 2: podcast episode on forensic science lies. I said, it seems

1075
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 2: kind of weird because we're definitely going to tear you

1076
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 2: a new one. But he paid us one hundred and

1077
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 2: seventy thousand dollars, so here's amazing.

1078
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 3: He's a swell guy.

1079
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: Anyway, we're back, so again, I can't blame Gina for

1080
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 2: like wanting to get something positive out of her sister's murder.

1081
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: But I can blame doctor Voss for, in my opinion,

1082
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 2: taking advantage of her and a lot of other grieving people.

1083
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 2: Case in point, a shitload of folks who've lost loved

1084
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 2: ones on the PCT, people like the family of David O'Sullivan,

1085
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 2: a twenty five year old from Ireland who went missing

1086
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 2: in the spring of twenty seventeen. Voss scanned for his

1087
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: body from a helicopter with his labrador and gave GPS

1088
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: coordinates to where rescuers would find the body. A mountaineer

1089
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 2: went to the coordinates and found nothing. Oh Sullivan is

1090
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 2: still missing three years later. Again, was still missing three

1091
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 2: years later.

1092
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 3: Again. If people out there listening trying to figure out

1093
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 3: what this labrador thing is, it's just like a dumb

1094
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,240
Speaker 3: looking metal box nothing. It's a los of nothing. It's

1095
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 3: nothing like how would that? How would from working from

1096
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,439
Speaker 3: like an inch away? I don't think it would work

1097
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 3: much less from a helicopter.

1098
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I'm going to quote again from

1099
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 2: mother Jones here, and this is them talking to the

1100
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 2: family of David O'Sullivan. Voss cost us a lot of

1101
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: money and gave us false hope, which was much worse.

1102
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 2: The Lost Higer's mother, Carmelosa Lovin, wrote in an email,

1103
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 2: adding that she now doubts Voss ever found a missing person.

1104
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: Families are at their most vulnerable at this time, and

1105
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 2: we'll try desperate measures. Voss is such a fixture in

1106
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 2: the I Lost a loved one on the PCT community

1107
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 2: that the first startup again this website has done it

1108
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 2: right above him because they feel the need to warn

1109
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,280
Speaker 2: people in the community about him. Because he's a fucking predator,

1110
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 2: is what some people might argue. He cites a patent file,

1111
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 2: or the guy who wrote that article in PCT missing

1112
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 2: dot Org sites a patent filing for this successor device

1113
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 2: to the Labrador, which is called the inquisitor. And I'm

1114
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: not really curious about what the acronym stands for But

1115
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 2: I do want to read this quote from that PCT

1116
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 2: Missing article. I've reviewed twenty seven cases Voss worked, and

1117
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 2: I can't find a single one where the inquisitor detected

1118
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 2: an actual missing person or their remains. I know of

1119
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 2: one missing hiker case in which Voss and his device

1120
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: walked within feet of the remains and totally missed it.

1121
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 2: We know this because the missing person was found by

1122
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 2: accident many months later, well outside the area detected by

1123
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: Voss and his inquisitor.

1124
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, the thing is

1125
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 3: that he does it once, you know, shame on him.

1126
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 3: He makes a living off of it, Shame on us.

1127
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 2: Right, there's a broader problem. This is a systemic issue.

1128
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 2: Now that article of that PCT missing article, which again

1129
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: I would not surprised that this is a community, right,

1130
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: that there's enough missing people, and that it's enough of

1131
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 2: a thing that folks who are particularly really into the

1132
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 2: trail do. But I was impressed at like the degree

1133
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 2: of rigor in the article that this guy put together

1134
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 2: on doctor Voss. It's really quite good. The author of

1135
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 2: that talk to doctor Monte Miller, director of Forensic DNA Experts,

1136
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: to provide an analysis of the patent for the Inquisitor device.

1137
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 2: Doctor Miller has a PhD in biochemistry, not anthropology, which

1138
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 2: makes him somewhat more qualified to draw conclusions on biochemistry. Quote,

1139
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: in a six page report, you thoroughly debunked the Inquisitor's

1140
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 2: ability to locate dead family members using your fingernail clippings.

1141
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: That's what Voss was advertising. You give me your fingernails,

1142
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 2: and I will find your loved one using my magical gadget.

1143
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: That's so right for an example of how ridiculous this is,

1144
00:58:55,960 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 2: it's hard to get DNA from fingernail clippings, right Like,

1145
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 2: it's not You could do it, but it's not easy,

1146
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 2: right Like, it's one of the more difficult things in

1147
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 2: DNA related science. You certainly cannot put your finger nail

1148
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 2: clippings in a box that then finds your son's body.

1149
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 3: That's just not real. Yeah, I don't like this guy.

1150
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 3: I mean, whenever you tell me about these grifters that

1151
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 3: are able to pull off these scams allegedly, I don't

1152
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 3: know if he listens or if he's latigonist, but like it,

1153
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 3: I have. It almost is a part of me. That's

1154
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 3: just like, that's pretty I wish I had that confidence.

1155
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 3: I wish I had this level of like confidence in

1156
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 3: my skills to be like to try and sell something

1157
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 3: like this, Like it's kind of inspiring in a weird way.

1158
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 3: I hate to admit that it is.

1159
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 2: It's awesome and like the literal sense of that word,

1160
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 2: and that you have awe at the audacity of this motherfucker.

1161
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's working. He's like, he's like, yeah, he wouldn't

1162
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 3: keep doing it.

1163
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 2: He like it may not be working as well. Now

1164
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: that's a little unclear to me. Sources at the UT

1165
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 2: Forensic Anthropology Center say Voss is no longer associated with

1166
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 2: their department. The author of that article I cited talk

1167
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 2: to a PhD who specializes in light ar. This person

1168
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: described Voss as predatory. To date, there are no scientific

1169
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 2: studies backing at Boss's claims. A person who wrote that

1170
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 2: article claims he charges three hundred dollars an hour, plus

1171
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 2: expenses and a retainer for his services, which is deeply Again,

1172
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 2: if you if your fucking kid is missing, you'll do

1173
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 2: anything if you can be con Obviously, for his part,

1174
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 2: Boss told Mother Jones he's not out to take advantage

1175
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 2: of anybody, a statement made almost exclusively by people out

1176
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 2: to take advantage of other people. He states that his

1177
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 2: fee is minimal and that he's worked pro bono in

1178
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: the past, a statement wonderfully vague enough that it means

1179
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 2: almost nothing. He does note that he also operates with

1180
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 2: more recognized tools like cadaver dogs and chemical tests. Curious then,

1181
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: that he makes such a point about his patented body

1182
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 2: stiffing machine that no one can seem to prove has

1183
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 2: been studied in any kind of objective, repeatable way. Eric Bartling,

1184
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 2: an anthropology professor who was former president of the American

1185
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 2: Bord of Forensic Anthropology, says Voss's services are not scientifically valid.

1186
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 2: Helen Gilking, director of the Forensic Anthropology Lab at the

1187
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: University of North Texas Center for Human Identification, adds part

1188
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: of the problem has to do that Voss doesn't belong

1189
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 2: to any of the usual organizations or societies. He's operating

1190
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 2: in a society of consumers who have been conditioned by

1191
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: all sorts of forensic scientific fantasy in the popular media.

1192
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 2: As a result, there is no shortage of potential victims.

1193
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 2: I don't fully agree with her, because again, he is

1194
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 2: associated with some reputable thing like organizations. He's been teaching

1195
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 2: cops the fucking body farm. It's not weird that people

1196
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 2: think he's got qualifications. Part of the issue is that

1197
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 2: this is not just a vas thing. Like the whole

1198
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 2: field of forensic science, all the different fields of forensic

1199
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 2: science are riddled with like issues in adequately determining whether

1200
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 2: or not different techniques are valid and repeatable science. This

1201
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 2: is a problem again and again. We're not even going

1202
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: to get into it in these episodes because there's so

1203
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 2: much else, but like, one of the big findings in

1204
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 2: the last couple of decades has been that a huge

1205
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 2: amount of what used to be called like arson analysis

1206
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 2: like burn analysis, was just wrong. People were convicted all

1207
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 2: the fucking time based on an understanding of what sort

1208
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 2: of patterns and a fire indicated arson that were not

1209
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: necessarily indicators of arson that could happen in totally accidental

1210
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 2: fires and fires that are started electrically. That they were

1211
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 2: like this only happens when you pour fuel right was

1212
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 2: completely bucked. People went to fucking prison for this shit.

1213
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 2: It happened. It's all over the goddamn place, and it's

1214
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 2: because once people have the idea to start doing this

1215
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 2: as a method of forensic analysis. They just start doing

1216
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 2: it in court for money, rather than building up a

1217
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 2: body of science around it first.

1218
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 3: You know, again, it comes out of like the legal

1219
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 3: system and law enforcement, as opposed to coming out of

1220
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 3: like the traditional sciences, where they come out of yeah yeah,

1221
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 3: fundamental flaws.

1222
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah so. And while Voss is a particularly noteworthy example

1223
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: of the problematic aspects of having little in the way

1224
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 2: of objective standards for any kind of practitioners forensic science,

1225
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 2: he's not nearly alone. This brings me to doctor Richard

1226
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 2: Vorder Bruges, who has used as unparalleled skill and denim

1227
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 2: identification to idea bank robber Wilburn mccreeth, who was sentenced

1228
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 2: to prison for ninety two years. Now, what identification he's

1229
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 2: matching like pants and shirts on camera, like the pattern

1230
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 2: of creases and folds in them to prove that it's

1231
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 2: the same shirt, not just like an identical because obviously

1232
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 2: a lot of people buy the same versions of the

1233
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 2: same shirt. You have to prove that, like this is

1234
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 2: the this shirt on camera is the shirt this guy owns, right,

1235
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 2: And he's doing that by like doing wrinkle analysis, which.

1236
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 3: Is like wow, awesome.

1237
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 2: It's one thing if there's a guy like rob Say

1238
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 2: a guy holds up a liquor store and you see

1239
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 2: he's wearing a certain shirt with a specific pattern, and

1240
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 2: there's three cigarette burns in the shoulder, and you find

1241
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,959
Speaker 2: this a shirt with the same pattern and cigarette burns

1242
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 2: in the same way. That's some evidence, right, that would

1243
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 2: definitely be reasonable to introduce, right, Yeah, what he's doing

1244
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 2: is much sketchier than this. Right, look at this. There's

1245
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,439
Speaker 2: a photograph of comparison for this bank robbery case where

1246
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 2: you can see how kind of unclear the actual clips

1247
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 2: from the bank camera are. And you can compare that

1248
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 2: with like the pictures they have of the suspect and

1249
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 2: his shirt, and it's just a bunch of like arrows

1250
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 2: pointing at nothing, Like I can't even see what they're

1251
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,439
Speaker 2: claiming is like the unique wrinkle patterns that prove these

1252
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 2: are the same.

1253
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 3: So for listeners, what we have on the screen right

1254
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 3: now is a bunch of pictures black and white, taking

1255
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 3: from surveillance photos of like a plaid shirt. You can't

1256
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 3: really tell the color. And there is like, just like

1257
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 3: you Robert mentioned, a bunch of arrows literally pointing to

1258
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 3: it could be anything, which just random. There's random arrows

1259
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 3: sort of pointing here and there no discernible like arrangement

1260
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 3: in the concept I'm guessing here is like like, for example,

1261
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 3: my shirt right now, there's like these folds and wrinkles

1262
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 3: around my armpit, for example, Like they would check that,

1263
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 3: put an arrow there and be like this fold here

1264
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 3: is very specific, which is like, which seems pretty unreproducible

1265
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 3: to me. This, like I seems like an absolute garbage.

1266
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 4: Every guy in Pittsburgh has this shirt.

1267
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 2: It's one thing to say, you know, I've done open

1268
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 2: source analysis that has been sighted in courts and stuff, right,

1269
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 2: and like when you do it, it's stuff like, Okay, well,

1270
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 2: this person is wearing a mask, but they have an

1271
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 2: article of clothing, and there's another picture of a person

1272
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:00,919
Speaker 2: who is wearing the same mask, who has the same

1273
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 2: article of clothing, and then a picture of them without

1274
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 2: the mask wearing that clothing, and you can also see

1275
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 2: evidence of like there's this part of a tattoo in

1276
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 2: the picture of the person without the mask that is

1277
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 2: present in the picture of the person with the mask,

1278
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 2: and like you know these other you know, there's a

1279
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 2: ring or something that you can see in all these

1280
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 2: other pictures, and like we can sort of suggest that

1281
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 2: this is the same person in all these pictures, because

1282
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 2: these things are really consistent, right, and there's enough of

1283
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 2: them that it would be really weird if like that.

1284
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 2: It's very unlikely that it's like not the same person, right.

1285
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 2: Whereas Bruce is just saying, he literally says, based on

1286
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 2: the photos I just showed you, there is a one

1287
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 2: in six hundred and fifty billion chance that these are

1288
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 2: different shirts.

1289
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's where does he get that number from?

1290
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 3: Holy hell? What a what a bold statement.

1291
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: Man.

1292
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to need to see your fucking math. I

1293
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 2: don't even know math, but I'm going to need to

1294
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 2: see you proof that. To me, it's a number calculation, bro.

1295
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 2: Pro Publican notes quote there is no body of work,

1296
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 2: at least not outside of the FBI on clothing pattern matching.

1297
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 2: There's no data available to tailing the number of identical

1298
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 2: shirts created during manufacturing runs, or how many variations an

1299
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 2: examiner should expect to find then a lot of manufactured clothes,

1300
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 2: Nor is there any specific training required to turn an

1301
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 2: FBI examiner into an expert on clothing features. From what's

1302
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 2: been obtained by Pro public La, the only requirement seems

1303
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 2: to be a functioning pair of eyes.

1304
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 4: Do they even say the brand of this shirt they're

1305
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 4: using as an example.

1306
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure, Yeah, I'm sure they do somewhere. But

1307
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: like two.

1308
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 4: Thousand and four of the Gap, everybody had that shirt.

1309
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 4: It's not a specialty shit.

1310
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 2: It's like a red plaid shirt shirt.

1311
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 4: It's a plaid collar shirt. This is not some specialty item.

1312
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ, my god. Now so desperate. We're so desperate.

1313
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 3: This is how bad it is, how bad we are

1314
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 3: at solving crimes as we are turning to stuff like this.

1315
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing stuff. The FBI has claimed in court

1316
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 2: filings that patterns of wrinkles and jeans and shirts are

1317
01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 2: as unique as fingerprints, which really gives up some of

1318
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 2: the game here. Fingerprints are accepted as a flawless method

1319
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 2: of scientific identification, though, as we started these episodes by saying,

1320
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 2: they are not. So if you want to make your

1321
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 2: much sketchier tactic look acceptable, you have to tell the

1322
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 2: jury it's just as reliable as finger printing. Pro Publica continues,

1323
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 2: Like anything else, this science is prone to confirmation bias,

1324
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:23,480
Speaker 2: but in these cases it's much worse. FBI image examiners

1325
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 2: aren't given control images or items to guard against this.

1326
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,879
Speaker 2: They're only given images and the items investigators believe are evidence,

1327
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 2: so it guides examiners to inevitable conclusions. The research tends

1328
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 2: to be little more than finding ways images and items match,

1329
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,759
Speaker 2: working backwards from the assumption that the item being examined

1330
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 2: as evidence of a criminal act. The entire body of

1331
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:48,799
Speaker 2: this quote unquote wrinkle matching science rests on a twenty

1332
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 2: plus year old case involving a pair of blue gens.

1333
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:57,120
Speaker 2: Let me show you the photographic evidence. Can you even

1334
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 2: see the fucking wrinkles in these pictures?

1335
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 3: Okay? So we are looking at two side by side photos,

1336
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,719
Speaker 3: very old, grainy, black and white photos.

1337
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 4: Yea's supposed to be the same pants? Yes, okay.

1338
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: One is a straight leg geen that's like a stove

1339
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: pipe style. The other one is like almost a wide

1340
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 1: leg or a bootcut gen.

1341
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 4: What what? And there are clearly different colors.

1342
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 1: I can even tell they're different colors in black and white,

1343
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 1: and the denim print is completely different, the stitching is different,

1344
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: and uh.

1345
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 4: This is all bullshit.

1346
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 3: Sorry, I mean like I would. Okay, here's the thing.

1347
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 3: If there was some computer analysis that like really honed

1348
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 3: in on like a section of like the fiber, and

1349
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 3: they said, oh, you could see there there's a problem

1350
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 3: here with the stitch. Like the stitch here is a

1351
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 3: unique mess up like this is like a one in

1352
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 3: a whatever thousand chance of having a mess up like this.

1353
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 3: Then that sort of makes sense. But literally, this seems

1354
01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 3: to be a science where it's like, look, the genes

1355
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,599
Speaker 3: are wrinkled here and here and here, and these genes

1356
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 3: over here are also wrinkled in a similar sort of way.

1357
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 3: They must be the same person. Like, you know how

1358
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 3: pissed I would be if I got sentenced erroneously to

1359
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 3: jail because of this, Like it would be even worse

1360
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 3: than going to jail without doing the crime. It would

1361
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 3: be because of this I went to jail. I'd be

1362
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 3: so furious.

1363
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:28,599
Speaker 4: These are costly different genes. The styles are not the same.

1364
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 1: You got street stove pipe and you've got wide leg

1365
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 1: boot cut.

1366
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,240
Speaker 4: What the fuck are we even talking about here? This

1367
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 4: is bullshit for a lot of genes. I know what

1368
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 4: I'm talking about.

1369
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 2: I will say the good thing is that the field

1370
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 2: of wrinkle analysis is not as respected as it once was.

1371
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 4: But really, really, because it's based off of this.

1372
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 2: Okay, because the innocence projects for folks got a lot

1373
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 2: of people's convictions over turned based on like really shoddy

1374
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 2: this specifically being very shoddy science, and it's forced the

1375
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 2: Justice Department to change their requirements around this. DOJ standards

1376
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:11,839
Speaker 2: now mandate that they're scientists and experts, not unequivocally claimed

1377
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 2: that fingerprints or bullets or hair analysis can determine which

1378
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:17,759
Speaker 2: bullet fired a gun, or which hand left a print,

1379
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,480
Speaker 2: or which had grew a hair quote to the exclusion

1380
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 2: of all others. This is the kind of claims that

1381
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 2: we're making about stuff like bullet analysis, wrinkle matching that like,

1382
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,759
Speaker 2: because of my expertise, is like an FBI trained fucking

1383
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 2: wrinkle I can these are the same pants to the

1384
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 2: exclusion of all of their possibilities. They cannot say that anymore. Right,

1385
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:38,680
Speaker 2: the DOJ guys, Right, people who are actually working for

1386
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,799
Speaker 2: the Department of Justice, you know, doing forensic analysis can't.

1387
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 3: Create success more. I'm I'm so glad we got that

1388
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 3: very basic thing.

1389
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so at least at least that's good. So yeah,

1390
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot that's angry, frustrating about this today.

1391
01:11:57,720 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 2: There's more here. I wanted to go into where are

1392
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 2: aready running so long? But I do feel like I

1393
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 2: would be remiss if I didn't at least let you

1394
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 2: know about the latest bullshit forensic science that I came across,

1395
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 2: which is exciting field of nine to one to one

1396
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 2: call analysis. This is the result of a deputy police chief,

1397
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:20,560
Speaker 2: Tracy Harpster, from Dayton, Ohio, who had no particular experience

1398
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 2: solving murders prior to attending a course at the FBI

1399
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 2: Academy in two thousand and four. He made a teacher

1400
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 2: there that he thought was fucking gray, and he decides

1401
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 2: to go get his master's degree at the U of Cincinnati,

1402
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:35,480
Speaker 2: and his thesis involves he listens to one hundred recordings

1403
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 2: of nine to one one calls. Half are from innocent

1404
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 2: people and half are from people who were guilty of

1405
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 2: the climes crimes they were reporting. He then analyzed the

1406
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 2: calls for clues on the cues guilty people gave off. Now,

1407
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 2: this study is peer reviewed, but it is a peer

1408
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 2: reviewed it's labeled in the where it was published as

1409
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 2: exploratory research, so it's not When I say it's a

1410
01:12:57,400 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 2: peer reviewed study, that doesn't mean that a bunch of

1411
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 2: scientists to read this is a great way to determine

1412
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 2: whether or not people making a nine to one one

1413
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 2: call committed a crime. They agreed that, like, this is

1414
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 2: interesting and more research should be done, right, And in fact,

1415
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 2: one of the people who helped him with this has

1416
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 2: gone on to be like, I think what he is

1417
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,679
Speaker 2: doing is not acceptable now because what he now does

1418
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 2: is teach cops all around the country for huge amounts

1419
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 2: of money how to tell with people are guilty based

1420
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 2: on things in nine one one calls. What kinds of things? Well,

1421
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 2: if you use the word please, you're probably guilty. In

1422
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,439
Speaker 2: a nine one one call. If you say huh in

1423
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 2: response to a dispatcher's question, that's an indicator of guilt.

1424
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 2: If you say something like please help me, that could

1425
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 2: mean that you're guilty.

1426
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:41,680
Speaker 3: Please, huh and please help me are like three of

1427
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 3: my favorite things to say.

1428
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's cool.

1429
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 3: I want to I want to.

1430
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 2: Quote from a pro publica analysis that's just fucking infuriating.

1431
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 2: This is a Colorado sheriff's deputy who asks Harpster to

1432
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:56,640
Speaker 2: analyze the nine one one call of a widow suspective

1433
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 2: of murdering your husband.

1434
01:13:57,680 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 3: Quote.

1435
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 2: The widow said the word blood for a example, and

1436
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 2: that's a guilty indicator. Bleeding, however, is not she said

1437
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 2: somebody at different points, which shows a lack of commitment.

1438
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 2: Witnesses to a crime scene should be able to report

1439
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 2: their observations clearly. Harpster and Adams wrote, she was inappropriately

1440
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 2: polite because she said I'm sorry and thank you. She

1441
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:20,760
Speaker 2: interrupted herself, which wastes valuable time and may add confusion.

1442
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 2: She tried to divert attention by saying, God, who would

1443
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 2: do this? Harpster and Adams commented, this is a curious

1444
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:28,559
Speaker 2: and unexpected question.

1445
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 3: This is fucking insane. Yeah, this is like nineteen eighty

1446
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:37,719
Speaker 3: four level of like.

1447
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 2: This guy, this widow gets convicted. Yeah, maybe she did it.

1448
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 2: There was other evidence, you know, but this is some

1449
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:44,679
Speaker 2: of the evidence they convict her on. And that makes

1450
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:47,920
Speaker 2: me very uneasy because this shit is bullcrap.

1451
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 3: Right. The whole idea that like, witnesses.

1452
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:52,680
Speaker 2: To a crime scene should be able to report their

1453
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:56,759
Speaker 2: observations clearly. Have you fucking met a crime scene witness?

1454
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 2: Have you watched have you talked to someone who just

1455
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:00,719
Speaker 2: saw a violent committed?

1456
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 1: Right?

1457
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 3: They're bad at doing that they're terrible, I mean understandably,

1458
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 3: so that's like what they've just experienced. I mean it

1459
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 3: would be like there's a part of me I get

1460
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 3: why all these things work because they're all fun. Like

1461
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 3: it's all fun. Like this is like, right, wouldn't it

1462
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:21,320
Speaker 3: be fun to be able to detect someone's line based

1463
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 3: on like some subtle cues like that, you know, but.

1464
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 2: Cops love being able to take like a five day

1465
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:28,760
Speaker 2: course and say, now it can tell it when a

1466
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:31,480
Speaker 2: nine to one one call is a lie by a murderer.

1467
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 3: You know, these skills, It seems like it would be

1468
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 3: a lot of fun. I get why people like it,

1469
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 3: but like we have to take we have to learn

1470
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 3: as a country to take a step back. Just take

1471
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 3: a step back every now and then and look at

1472
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 3: what we're doing. This might not.

1473
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:49,719
Speaker 2: He is taught police and continues to teach police officers.

1474
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 2: I think twenty six states at this point. Twenty researchers

1475
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:58,559
Speaker 2: twenty researchers from seven federal government agencies, universities, and advocacy

1476
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 2: groups have tested his methods against other samples of nine

1477
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,800
Speaker 2: to one one calls to see if the guilty indicators

1478
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 2: that he points out do correlate with guilt, and these

1479
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:12,440
Speaker 2: studies have consistently found no relationship for most of the indicators.

1480
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

1481
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:17,320
Speaker 2: Two separate studies FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit experts warrened law

1482
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:23,040
Speaker 2: enforcement officers that their results contradicted harpsters and police probably

1483
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 2: shouldn't be using this shit. Despite that, the FBI repeatedly

1484
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:30,879
Speaker 2: suggests his like like recommends him as an expert in cases.

1485
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 3: So it's good, amazing, It's amazing again, no matter how

1486
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 3: dumb it seems to be, it's just these new levels

1487
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:41,000
Speaker 3: of dumb that I discover.

1488
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. I'm sure we'll be learning more

1489
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 2: about this guy. Pro public as seems to be, has

1490
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:52,240
Speaker 2: been reporting quite a bit on him lately, So that's good. Anyway.

1491
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 2: Don't call nine one one.

1492
01:16:56,240 --> 01:17:01,640
Speaker 3: Really, I'm not sure I can back that one.

1493
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 1: Normally, when we do an episode and it's I can

1494
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 1: shut it off in my brain right away, because we

1495
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 1: do so much of what we do. I'm going to

1496
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 1: be mad about the gene thing for a really long time.

1497
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 2: It's it's it's good stuff. Look, folks, if there's a

1498
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 2: lesson here again, never call nine one one. Always take

1499
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 2: justice into your own hands. That's the safe way to

1500
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 2: do this, you know.

1501
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

1502
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 3: The doctor didn't say that. The doctor that's the podcast

1503
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 3: didn't say that. The reverend, the one true reverend doctor

1504
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:36,800
Speaker 3: on this podcast did not say that.

1505
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:41,160
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, well I don't know. Uh. What I will

1506
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 2: say is, if you call nine one one, don't use

1507
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 2: the word blood.

1508
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't say please, don't please, you mean, don't hesitate.

1509
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:51,720
Speaker 3: Just start yelling at them. I guess that's the only

1510
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 3: way to do it.

1511
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, atonal shrieking.

1512
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go a.

1513
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 2: Shriek atonally and get them your address. That's it. Cool stuff.

1514
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 3: I am fantastic.

1515
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 4: I'm mad.

1516
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:12,799
Speaker 2: Well, that's my job done. That was fine, everybody.

1517
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:13,240
Speaker 3: That was fun.

1518
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 2: Doctor Hoda anywhere people can find you.

1519
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 3: Please listen to my podcast. I like it when people listen.

1520
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 3: I enjoy that very much. It's called the House of Pod.

1521
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 3: It is a fun medical podcast. And I know you're

1522
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 3: thinking you probably wouldn't like a medical podcast, but you will,

1523
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 3: you will, and you will listen. You will like it.

1524
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 3: I think it's a good chance you might enjoy it.

1525
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on, and I

1526
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,680
Speaker 3: really appreciate This is always so much fun for me.

1527
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:42,440
Speaker 2: And look, folks out there, if you're a lawyer, a prosecutor,

1528
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 2: DA or whatever. I have started advertising my services as

1529
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 2: a uniquely skilled guilt science expert, which basically means you

1530
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:55,560
Speaker 2: pay me fifteen hundred dollars and I'll look at a

1531
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 2: guy and go, oh, yeah, that motherfucker did it. And

1532
01:18:58,200 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 2: I'll do that in the court room. You know.

1533
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 3: So when this episode ends, can we just do a

1534
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 3: quick round of two truths and a lie and see

1535
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 3: if we can guess who's lying to lose it?

1536
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 2: There we go.

1537
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 3: We can even do it on air too, But I

1538
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:11,880
Speaker 3: really want to see if I can guess when you

1539
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:12,559
Speaker 3: guys are lying.

1540
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, let's do it. Let's do it, Cove. That

1541
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 2: seems like a fun way to end our episode. Okay, okay,

1542
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:19,080
Speaker 2: in law.

1543
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 3: Come come a little closer to the screen. I want

1544
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 3: to see if the facial micro expressions.

1545
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 2: Expressions sut me. Okay, move my window over so I'm

1546
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 2: looking directly at it.

1547
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:31,720
Speaker 3: Okay, perfect, now, Robert, please tell me if you if

1548
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 3: you would, I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions

1549
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 3: and I want two of them to be true and

1550
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 3: one of them to be a lie. God, what was

1551
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:46,320
Speaker 3: the name of the street you grew up on? Seeger?

1552
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:47,799
Speaker 3: That's true?

1553
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:57,600
Speaker 2: No, it's not. Dam absolutely a lie. All right, I

1554
01:19:57,600 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 2: don't even remember this name. I mean it actually might

1555
01:19:59,920 --> 01:20:01,719
Speaker 2: be you true because I have no idea what street

1556
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 2: I grew up on, Like it depends on what do

1557
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:05,519
Speaker 2: you even mean by that? Like I've lived in so

1558
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,599
Speaker 2: many places as a kid, I remember like a couple

1559
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 2: of the streets.

1560
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:12,560
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I guess it's not an exact science.

1561
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:15,559
Speaker 2: What we're learning.

1562
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: You asked me a question.

1563
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:22,439
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, Sophie. How many times have you seen the

1564
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:27,280
Speaker 3: movie Titanic? Yeah? Look at me when you answer this

1565
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:28,840
Speaker 3: that you can't look down like you're doing. That looks

1566
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:30,760
Speaker 3: suspicious and I think you're lying already. Yeah.

1567
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:32,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should have asked her.

1568
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 4: I'm counting. And now are we talking ever?

1569
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:39,840
Speaker 3: Or whoa my goodness? In the last year, I guess

1570
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah, twice, that's obviously a lie. No

1571
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 3: one's watched that Titanic.

1572
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 4: Watched and I watched it twice. That was the truth.

1573
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:49,400
Speaker 4: I would never lie to you.

1574
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:52,240
Speaker 2: I would never see I thought it was a lie

1575
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 2: because I assumed you'd watched it a lot more.

1576
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 1: No, no, I thought, once in theaters and what's that home?

1577
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 1: Once in theaters on the anniversary, and it's at home.

1578
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 1: I would never lie to you. You are my friend.

1579
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 3: Okay, you're right, this is this is.

1580
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:10,280
Speaker 4: Robert would lie to you to prove his friendship.

1581
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:14,520
Speaker 2: Oh, just for fun, just as a bit sometimes.

1582
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and uh, I am really good at

1583
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 3: detecting what people lie. Is when everyone thinks and nobody.

1584
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 2: Is yeah, nobody. Nobody's very good at it.

1585
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:26,280
Speaker 3: Nobody.

1586
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 2: That part's okay, because none of human civilization would work

1587
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 2: if we were all good at telling when we were

1588
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 2: being lied to.

1589
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:33,640
Speaker 1: Ye.

1590
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:39,000
Speaker 2: So, so much of peace and tranquility in civilization relies

1591
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 2: upon us not catching every little lie somebody tells us.

1592
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 3: Oh my god, if you could read people's minds, it

1593
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:49,839
Speaker 3: would be absolute chaos. Yeah, absolutely, things would be terrible.

1594
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 1: And tend this out, I would like to plug that.

1595
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:57,240
Speaker 1: We have a new show launching momentarily on cools one Media,

1596
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 1: hosting by Jamie Loftus. It's a weekly podcast called sixteenth

1597
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:01,960
Speaker 1: Minute of Fame.

1598
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:02,720
Speaker 4: Look for that.

1599
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 2: Speaking of failures in the criminal justice system, Jamie still

1600
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 2: has not been brought to justice for those murders.

1601
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:12,400
Speaker 3: And I even I.

1602
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 2: Forgot the name of the city I like about it,

1603
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:16,519
Speaker 2: Grand Rapids.

1604
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:18,839
Speaker 3: Oh, I thought it was Gary, Indiana for some reason.

1605
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 2: Gary Indiana. Maybe she did in Gary, Indiana. Next week

1606
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 2: we're our investigation into Jamie's crimes and Gary will.

1607
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 3: Have pursueddor dowsing for bodies.

1608
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, get doctor Voss on the case.

1609
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:36,040
Speaker 4: I don't know. I need to see all of Jamie's genes.

1610
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:40,559
Speaker 2: We got to do a gene and how this Jamie?

1611
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 2: Make sure the creases don't match too much.

1612
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1613
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:55,919
Speaker 4: Or more from cool Zone Media.

1614
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us

1615
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1616
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.