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Speaker 1: This is Cobad Babnaghri and you're listening to Switched on

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Speaker 1: the podcast brought to you by Bloomberg ne EF. The

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Speaker 1: global energy transition was never going to be easy, but

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Speaker 1: the investment assumptions underpinning it and now being fundamentally rewritten. Tariffs,

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Speaker 1: inflation and geopolitical instability have upended financial models, while political

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Speaker 1: backlash against ESG investing and a renewed appetite for fossil fuels,

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Speaker 1: driven in part bay Ais insatiable power demand are reshaping

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Speaker 1: capital flows. Yet amid the volatility, one thing remains certain.

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Speaker 1: Electricity demand is forecaster search, even without AI's explosive load growth.

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Speaker 1: For investors and banks navigating this uncertainty, the challenges identifying

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Speaker 1: which technologies, whether in clean energy or fossil fuels, can

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Speaker 1: deliver both resilience and returns in an increasingly electrified world.

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Speaker 1: So how to investors and banks a just course, Where

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Speaker 1: can they find fresh investment opportunities and how do they

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Speaker 1: engage with their existing portfolio. On today's show, we bring

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Speaker 1: you a discussion from the BNF Summit London, where Jonathan

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Speaker 1: luan BNF set of Finance and Investment Research, spoke with

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Speaker 1: Ulrik Frugman, Cocio Environmental Strategies Group at BNPP Asset Management,

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Speaker 1: Ralph Ibbentdhal, Managing Director, Global Head of Energy Transition for

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Speaker 1: RBC Capital Markets, and Bianca Zicarelli, Managing Director of CPPIB. Together,

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Speaker 1: the panelists discuss key topics, including how they deal with

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Speaker 1: market volatility, the energy sectors they are keeping an eye on,

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Speaker 1: and the strategic approaches that banks and VC firms take

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Speaker 1: when it comes to investing in new technologies. BNF summits

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Speaker 1: bring together experts from across finance, energy and technology to

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Speaker 1: share insights, build connections, and explore how innovations in clean

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Speaker 1: energy technologies are reshaping global markets. Held in cities around

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Speaker 1: the world, they offer the ideas and perspective needed to

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Speaker 1: navigate the transition to a cliar in a future. If

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Speaker 1: you'd like to join us at an upcoming event, including

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Speaker 1: the BNF Summitt Shanghai on November twenty fifth and twenty sixth,

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Speaker 1: head to BNF dot com and click on Events, where

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Speaker 1: you can also watch highlights and videos from past summits.

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Speaker 1: And now to Jonathan's panel from the BNF Summit London,

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Speaker 1: titled Weighing the Investment opportunity conventional versus clean energy.

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Speaker 2: So much is changing in the world. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: clean energy stocks has outperformed SMP five hundred since Liberation

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Speaker 2: Day This year. Private market seems to be very interested

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Speaker 2: in the energy transition space, with Brookfield just closing a

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Speaker 2: second transition fund that's north of twenty billion dollars, and

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Speaker 2: a number of European owners have recently pulled their mandates

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Speaker 2: from US managers precisely on ESG concerns, suggesting that they

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Speaker 2: still care very much about the sacronym. I'm not usually

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Speaker 2: a glass half fall guy, so I'm happy to see

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Speaker 2: myself having this personal growth. But jokes aside, We've also

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Speaker 2: obviously have had more conversations about energy security, energy reliability,

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Speaker 2: and if not directly about building more fossil fuel energy.

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Speaker 2: Ralph Banks have been at the center of this pendulum.

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Speaker 2: S when over the past couple of years, Really, how

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Speaker 2: has that changed your approach to this energy space in

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Speaker 2: general and has this swing meant anything to you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think, I mean, look, I think a lot has

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Speaker 4: changed in twelve months. I think there's been some consistency.

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Speaker 4: China continues to dominate the space renewable to the lowest

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Speaker 4: cost of production, and so that's a constant. But I

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Speaker 4: think there's been a significant change over twelve months I

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Speaker 4: think from US in terms of engagement with clients, in

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Speaker 4: dialogue with stakeholders. Nothing's really changed fundamentally, but we are

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Speaker 4: picking our spots where we see opportunity. I would just

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Speaker 4: point out a couple of other sort of changes that

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Speaker 4: come with that that I think we're observing and that

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Speaker 4: impacting the environment.

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Speaker 3: One is just politics generally.

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Speaker 4: I think, particularly if you look at Europe and you

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Speaker 4: look at opposition parties, you hear a lot of the

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Speaker 4: same themes. So it doesn't just stop at big beautiful bill.

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Speaker 3: Tariffs really important also for this space.

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Speaker 4: Canada in particular, big impact there both politically, but then

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Speaker 4: also in terms of major projects that are being delivered

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Speaker 4: and developed, both conventional and clean energy.

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Speaker 3: So the Trump.

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Speaker 4: Effect definitely had a bigger impact.

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Speaker 3: More broadly, I.

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Speaker 4: Think, you know, data centers obviously is a theme that

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Speaker 4: has been talked about a lot. I think when we

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Speaker 4: look at particularly listed stock books, what we can see

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Speaker 4: is the people, the indices or companies that have outperformed

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Speaker 4: are actually companies in clean energy that are related to

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Speaker 4: that theme. Nuclear geothermal energy storage very much outperformed the

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Speaker 4: rest of the market over the last sort.

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Speaker 3: Of twelve months. And then the third part that.

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Speaker 4: We see and Cabex came up in the last talk,

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Speaker 4: investment is up. And when you look at the plans

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Speaker 4: for European utilities, just to pick something, when you look

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Speaker 4: at the last three year plan versus they go forward

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Speaker 4: three year plan, it's up depending on the company, somewhere

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Speaker 4: in the fourty to eighty five percent, So significantly more

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Speaker 4: investment actually despite the sort of volatile.

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Speaker 3: Sort of geopolitical environment.

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Speaker 4: And I think with that comes investment, need, need for

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Speaker 4: capital and different sources of capital that needs to be mobilized.

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Speaker 4: And so what do I observe And I look back,

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Speaker 4: I say, nothing's really changed in terms of the momentum

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Speaker 4: is still there, but we are seeing different factors play

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Speaker 4: out and therefore we're picking up spots much more carefully

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Speaker 4: about where we see that opportunity emerging based on the

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Speaker 4: policy inputs that we are we are getting.

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Speaker 2: How are you dealing with the policy volatility like it

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Speaker 2: seems like everything's changing on a week by week basis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I keep rewriting our strategy every three months, so

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Speaker 4: that I think most people here will you know, in

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Speaker 4: my mind, you know, policy sets the framework and then

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Speaker 4: everything will follow from that. And you know, every time

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Speaker 4: policy changes, we have to readjust and we have to

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Speaker 4: think does the business case still make sense? If it does,

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Speaker 4: or does do I need to change my approach and

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Speaker 4: I think we have to adjust. And volatility is not

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Speaker 4: an investments professional's best friend, as everybody will attest to.

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Speaker 5: So that's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Banka, coming to you again, this shift between fossil fee

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Speaker 2: and queen energy, at least in the narrative side of things.

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Speaker 2: How has that changed your approach if anything? And also

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Speaker 2: I want to specifically ask you about interest rate obviously

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Speaker 2: in another big change happening over the past couple of years.

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Speaker 2: How has that changed the math of finance energy?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 7: CPPIB has always been an investor across the entire energy

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Speaker 7: value chain. So we've always invested in clean technologies, renewables

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Speaker 7: all the way to gas fire generation and including upstream

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Speaker 7: and midstream oil and glass primarily in the US, So

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Speaker 7: we see the entire energy value chain. We've always done that,

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Speaker 7: so that hasn't changed more recently. Having said that, we

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Speaker 7: have seen a shift in the market dynamics with more

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Speaker 7: emphasis on energy security, reliability, and hopefully, and I'll take

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Speaker 7: your glass full approach, hopefully a pickup and power demand

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Speaker 7: across Europe fingers crossed driven by data centers and electrification

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Speaker 7: across Europe. And on that basis, we actually see a

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Speaker 7: lot of opportunities both on the conventional energy side, so gas,

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Speaker 7: fire generation, but also renewables. As Ralph said, renewables continue

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Speaker 7: to be the cleanest, sorry the cheapest source of new

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Speaker 7: energy generation, but economies for renewables economics are much more

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Speaker 7: complex today than there were a few years ago. So yes,

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Speaker 7: interest rates have stabilized, which provides a lot more visibility

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Speaker 7: into the economics of this projects. But on the other

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Speaker 7: side we have the kind of like the effects of

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Speaker 7: price cannibalization, curtailment, kind of like negative energy pricings which

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Speaker 7: do impact the economics of yes of these assets as

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Speaker 7: well as I think a bit of like a lack

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Speaker 7: of understanding from all of us on what is actually

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Speaker 7: the full burden costs of renewables when you take grid

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Speaker 7: stability and grid investments into account. So all in I

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Speaker 7: think we still see we're polish both on renewables.

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Speaker 6: As well as conventional generations.

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Speaker 7: We think both technologies are very important to the system,

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Speaker 7: and we continue to look at both.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, or you need to help me a little bit.

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Speaker 2: We're trying to pick one out of the tube. But

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Speaker 2: both of them have said it's both. You said up

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Speaker 2: the Environmental Strategies group back in twenty nineteen and went

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Speaker 2: to the moon. I thought, I think that's a technical term.

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Speaker 3: Right. How has that?

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Speaker 2: How has this ride been for you? And do you

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Speaker 2: feel like right now the moment is different than twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm actually twenty years old, but I may look

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Speaker 8: forward you because I've been invested in key energy since nineteen. No, No,

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Speaker 8: it's been It's been a bit of a ride for sure.

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Speaker 8: Twenty nineteen twenty. A lot of pivots, a lot of

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Speaker 8: liquidity in clean energy and the technologies combined with sort

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Speaker 8: of a fairly liquidity fueled market, perfect and cheap credit,

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Speaker 8: perfect environment for very capital intensive.

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Speaker 5: Clean energy solutions.

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Speaker 8: And you know, if I got a dollar from every

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Speaker 8: investor in twenty twenty that said, oh my god, I've

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Speaker 8: missed this greatest theme of our lifetime. I just cannot

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Speaker 8: believe it. When should I go back in? You know,

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Speaker 8: it's you know, we typically don't build a fund for timing.

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Speaker 8: We build it for sort of long duration. The narratives

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Speaker 8: certainly have changed so much. I've stopped calling myself a

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Speaker 8: cleenergy specialist because as soon as I introduced myself as one,

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Speaker 8: the phone all of a sudden goes click. So I'm

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Speaker 8: now an a AI enabling power provider and the lines

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Speaker 8: ringing off the hook. No joking aside, The narrative is

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Speaker 8: the same, and that is that exactly as Bianca said,

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Speaker 8: you know, powder Man is going up. It's quite a

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Speaker 8: very simple chart, and I love simplicity. If you look

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Speaker 8: at powder Man from two thousand and five to two

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Speaker 8: thousand and twenty two, it's flat, which defies conventional wisdom

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Speaker 8: that GP and that power typically sort of correlated with

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Speaker 8: GDP growth. But of course we had energy efficiency, we

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Speaker 8: had smart gro and everything else, so we could sort

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Speaker 8: of offset some of that additional GDP growing Powderman, you know,

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Speaker 8: with with efficiencies, and those efficiencies are now getting smaller

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Speaker 8: and smaller and smaller. You know, so big gains the beginning,

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Speaker 8: you know, smaller gains and now those gains are just marginal.

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Speaker 5: And what does that mean?

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Speaker 8: It means that now reality is really picking up, and

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Speaker 8: that is that powdermand is really starting to catch up

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Speaker 8: with broad GDP growth. So if we just kill AI

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Speaker 8: for one second. Now there's a lot of people that'll

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Speaker 8: be sad if we did that, But let's just say

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Speaker 8: we kill it for a second. Just electrification and Powderman

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Speaker 8: in Europe and the US, some excluding China for this,

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Speaker 8: you know, would have done unbelievable in terms of their

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Speaker 8: cleargy strategy and their power power management of power. We're

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Speaker 8: seeing powdermant going up to the tune of seventy eighty

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Speaker 8: percent over the next twenty years. That's that's that's pretty remarkable.

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Speaker 8: Now if you add AI to that, and I know

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Speaker 8: that you know, as typically we tend to have systematic

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Speaker 8: underestimation of you know, how fast things grow, well, it

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Speaker 8: almost becomes a bit silly. We're talking more than one

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Speaker 8: hundred percent. Let's haircut all of the AI projections in

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Speaker 8: terms of giga watches served by fifty percent, and it's

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Speaker 8: still a dunculous, insane amount of power we need between

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Speaker 8: today and twenty twenty five. The only difference is, you know,

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Speaker 8: which I keep saying, is you're paying six and a

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Speaker 8: half times price sales for MSCI aquate technology, and you're

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Speaker 8: paying one times price to sales for clean energy, or

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Speaker 8: let's call it AI powered innovative solutions meaning solar, when,

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Speaker 8: battery storage, smart grids, et cetera. So the thesis is

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Speaker 8: exactly the same with any technology. Anyone here will probably

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Speaker 8: know the Gardner hype cycle. You have a hype then

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Speaker 8: all of a sudden something burst. There's some exarconius event

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Speaker 8: that happens. It was rates and inflation with clean energy.

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Speaker 8: Can't think of any theme that haven't had that. Think tech,

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Speaker 8: think in China, think autos, think US railways, you know,

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Speaker 8: whichever it might be. And I would say about six

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Speaker 8: months ago we were at sort of a dissolution sort

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Speaker 8: of stage. Oh my god, this thing is never gonna work.

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Speaker 8: K is just dead, you know, I just don't see

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Speaker 8: it happening, despite solar and wind adding record capacity in

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Speaker 8: the US. So there is this sentiment change where end

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Speaker 8: up be where where? Basically I think we have one

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Speaker 8: of the largest blind spots ever, which is AI. You know,

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Speaker 8: it's becoming such a big part of global in disease.

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Speaker 8: You know, we can't attend any conference, any meeting, any

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Speaker 8: phone call, any conversation without touching upon AI. Yet very

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Speaker 8: few people are really focused on what enables AI, because

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Speaker 8: there is no AI without power. And then you can

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Speaker 8: rank those in terms of time to market and then

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Speaker 8: you get your answer.

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Speaker 2: The same logic applies to fossil fuel, and the reason

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Speaker 2: why we're still talking about gas and maybe the conventional

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Speaker 2: argument is time to market market argument. Gas turbines take time,

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Speaker 2: nuclear takes time, and a couple of other technologies you

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Speaker 2: can you can list this out, but that hasn't stopped

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Speaker 2: from gas makers raising their valuation in the market and

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Speaker 2: having some of these names being at their record highs.

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Speaker 2: As a as a porfolio manager, how are you comparing

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Speaker 2: these sort of fossil fuel names, even if they can't

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Speaker 2: deliver their market prices are going very much up versus

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Speaker 2: clean energy companies.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's not.

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Speaker 8: You know, I spent two thirds of my career investing

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Speaker 8: in coal and oil and gas, and you know, the

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Speaker 8: oil and above, and since sixteen sort of thought that

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Speaker 8: there was a really interesting pivot around environmental solutions four

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Speaker 8: years ago. Yeah, yeah, sorry for you, Yeah, the longer.

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Speaker 8: So there's definitely an oil and above, and I think

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Speaker 8: that just shows how urgent the demand power is. It's

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Speaker 8: not just that solar is the only solution, or gas

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Speaker 8: is the only solution, or nuclear is the only solution.

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Speaker 8: It's just you take the power you can get. And

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Speaker 8: then there's a difference between baseload traditional baseload power, which

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Speaker 8: consists of gas and nuclear. It's just time to market,

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Speaker 8: you know, is a bit of an issue there. If

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Speaker 8: you want power today, and some of the things you

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Speaker 8: can deploy fairly quickly. If you have an interconnection, whole

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Speaker 8: different issue. So lots of ifs and buds before the

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Speaker 8: anchor kills me, you know, because that is a big issue.

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Speaker 8: You basically have solar plus storage, some more sol on

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Speaker 8: our ad storage onto the equation. You know, you've got

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Speaker 8: some fuel cells, you've got some wind, you got you know,

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Speaker 8: geothermal which is really starting to become quite interesting and

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Speaker 8: moving down the cost curve, although still expensive.

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Speaker 5: So you know, we're not dogmatic about it.

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Speaker 8: We just wanted to create a vehicle where people could

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Speaker 8: and exposure in an institutional manner, diversified amount of these

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Speaker 8: environmental solutions across the spectrum. And yeah, we're not specifically

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Speaker 8: not invested in what we call transition because I feel

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Speaker 8: everything's a transition, you know. Coals are transition. Coals transitioning,

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Speaker 8: you know. So I just really hate the word transition

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Speaker 8: of what it's become. But we've decided to focus in

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Speaker 8: on the sort of more innovative side of the.

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Speaker 5: Palette of power innovation.

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Speaker 2: We've gone through this question with throwing a lot of

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Speaker 2: technology names out there right nuclear, geothermal, wind solars plus storage.

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Speaker 2: I want us to go more specific into which technology

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Speaker 2: and why you're finding opportunities.

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Speaker 3: Can I just ask.

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Speaker 2: All of you to name one specific technology on the

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Speaker 2: low carbon side you find you're finding opportunities right now,

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Speaker 2: which in the world and why? And also one technology

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Speaker 2: on the fossil fuel side for the same aspects. Bianca

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Speaker 2: canestra with you.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so I'm going to piggyback on Org's point here

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Speaker 7: on geothermal. I am a firm believer in geothermal.

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Speaker 6: I agree with you.

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Speaker 7: I think the economics are not necessarily there yet, but

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Speaker 7: I do think is going to pick up. We're seeing

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Speaker 7: a lot of activity in the US. We're investing in

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Speaker 7: the inferval in the US. We're seeing some activities in

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Speaker 7: Europe as well. A bit different market dynamics and concerns

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Speaker 7: but Germany is a market that I personally see a

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Speaker 7: lot of potential earlier days in the US, but a

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Speaker 7: technology that I think is worth watching out for in

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Speaker 7: the future. So that's on the clean energy side of

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Speaker 7: things and another more conventional side of things. Obviously, I

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Speaker 7: think we're looking at a lot of gas fire generation,

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Speaker 7: and we continue to see quite a lot of opportunities.

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Speaker 7: I think gas is here to stay for longer. We're

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Speaker 7: seeing this as a key uh well, I won't say

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Speaker 7: transition technology, but a clear stability and security of supply technology.

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Speaker 7: So we're firm believers that gas will be in the

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Speaker 7: system for longer across all geographies.

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Speaker 2: Are there any specific across all geographies, any specific region

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Speaker 2: that you see policy enabling geothermal or gas making a

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Speaker 2: sort of faster headway.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So I think geothermal is probably going to pick

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Speaker 7: up in the US first before it does in Europe.

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Speaker 7: I think Europe has different concerns about technology and fracking

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Speaker 7: and all of that, so I'm probably I think we're

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Speaker 7: probably going to see the development in the US ahead

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Speaker 7: of Europe, and that's already happening.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 7: For gas, again, I think we're seeing many opportunities in

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Speaker 7: North America, but also in Europe. I think we're seeing

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Speaker 7: opportunities in the UK, in Ireland, Germany is talking about

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Speaker 7: deploying a lot of capital into building news new gas

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Speaker 7: fire generations. So I think we're seeing a lot of

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Speaker 7: activity and interest pick up. Obviously, where you get to

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Speaker 7: and how do you compensate the type of assets with capacity,

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Speaker 7: payments and things like that is a key key topics.

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Speaker 7: I think some markets are more developed than others, but overall,

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Speaker 7: I think is a theme to watch for across all

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Speaker 7: European geographies.

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Speaker 4: So I guess I can take you gas, so I'll

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Speaker 4: have to transition to something else.

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Speaker 3: We see.

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Speaker 4: I mean there's a lot of areas that get a

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Speaker 4: lot of focus, and whether that's energy service companies, where

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Speaker 4: the software companies that are enabling transition, clean data analytics.

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Speaker 4: Lots of people talk to us about that fleet decarbonization.

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Speaker 3: But if I had to pick two, let's talk about nuclear.

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Speaker 4: It's not a now thing, it's a longer term one,

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Speaker 4: right Let's I mean the first SMR will hopefully be

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Speaker 4: delivered at Darlington, Ontario.

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Speaker 3: Watch this space. There's you know a lot of new

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Speaker 3: nuclear discussion in.

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Speaker 4: Across Europe, A UK Sweden, Eastern Europe y energy security,

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Speaker 4: and I think baseload requirement. Right, we exiting coal, we're

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Speaker 4: exiting gas at some areas, so we have to have.

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Speaker 3: Some kind of you know, based load requirement.

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Speaker 4: So I think to me, if I take a slightly

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Speaker 4: longer perspective, twenty thirty onwards, nuclear will be a theme,

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Speaker 4: and we'll see it in many markets actually US and

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Speaker 4: Europe in particular on the conventional side. If I speak

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Speaker 4: to my North American colleagues, it'll be LERG export to

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Speaker 4: Europe and midstream infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: We see a lot of gas.

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Speaker 4: I see the demand in Germany write forty gigawads of

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Speaker 4: gas capacity needed because you haven't got nuclear and you

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Speaker 4: haven't got coal, so you need gas. And with that

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Speaker 4: you need a molecule to come in. And somebody called

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Speaker 4: it a freedom molecule. I'm not sure about that, but

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Speaker 4: LERG is definitely a topic of discussion for US.

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Speaker 5: It's really ungrateful.

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Speaker 8: Sorry, after you know Bianca and Ralph and because those

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Speaker 8: are great, great examples, I would say energy storage. I

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Speaker 8: know that always comes up and people like, oh, that

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Speaker 8: was really boring, because you could have chosen something a

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Speaker 8: bit sexier. But you know, energy storage is really interesting

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Speaker 8: because it you know, the numbers in terms of growth

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Speaker 8: or energy storage is just mind boggling and of course

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Speaker 8: makes sense and addresses the intermiscency of renewables. Right now,

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Speaker 8: most of the energy storage we that we have is

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Speaker 8: up to sort of four hours. What's really interesting are

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Speaker 8: companies that are trying to extend those to maybe eight hours,

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Speaker 8: maybe twelve hours, which is really technically extremely challenging, and

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Speaker 8: doing so with other materials and lithium for example, on

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Speaker 8: the on the sink side.

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Speaker 5: So but energy storage for sure.

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Speaker 8: But I would say, and it's interesting you say region,

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Speaker 8: I think energy storage is really hard for European or

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Speaker 8: US companies to build storage, although that supply chain is

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Speaker 8: building out for sure, where China really has a massive

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Speaker 8: cost and in many ways technical advantage over a lot

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Speaker 8: of the European and US counterparts. So I would say

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Speaker 8: energy storage that of course means it's not a good investment,

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Speaker 8: because just because it's a great technology doesn't mean it's

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Speaker 8: a great investment. And there are different parts of the

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Speaker 8: value chain there that are more interesting than others. And

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Speaker 8: then rather than maybe going into fossil fuels, can I

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Speaker 8: off pieced a little bit on the sort of maybe

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Speaker 8: going to the extractives.

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Speaker 5: Things, which would be lithium.

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Speaker 8: So we've built up positions across the lithium supply chain

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Speaker 8: over the past six months, you know, as a result

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Speaker 8: of and in a way of playing the energy storage

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Speaker 8: angle that still needs a lot of lithium. And we're

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Speaker 8: seeing eb sales continuing both in Europe but also in

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Speaker 8: in Asia. So I know it's a little bit conchariant,

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Speaker 8: but maybe that's why it's fun. Because lithium, I think

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Speaker 8: general wisdom would say it's still a fairly oversupplied market, etc.

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Speaker 8: But there's a lot of companies that are operating outside

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Speaker 8: of the cost curve. Chinese anti involution as well could

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Speaker 8: address that.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, lithium, I want to pick up on that

399
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Speaker 2: energy storage point you mentioned, not the whole valual change,

400
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Speaker 2: some parts of it. Can you tell us which parts

401
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Speaker 2: of it?

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Speaker 8: Yes, I need to be careful because I think ninety

403
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Speaker 8: percent of my investing companies are sitting here. But no,

404
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Speaker 8: you know, and Banker I'm sure would agree with me

405
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Speaker 8: here that you know, running energy storage infrastructure is really interesting.

406
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Speaker 8: You can get some really interesting returns out of that

407
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Speaker 8: and trying to find find ways in publicly listed infrastructure

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Speaker 8: which is trading at you know, an incredible discount to

409
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Speaker 8: private infrastructure, where we see just you know, a real

410
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Speaker 8: divergence in invaluations in the public market visa v private markets.

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Speaker 8: I think it's quite interesting the picks and shovels of

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Speaker 8: anty storage hence the lithium side, and then investing in companies,

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Speaker 8: particularly in China that are developing energy storage technology I

414
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Speaker 8: overall solutions to that.

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Speaker 5: It's really fears competition.

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Speaker 8: You know, and you'll have developers that want storage and

417
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Speaker 8: they frankly most of the time don't really care where

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Speaker 8: it's coming from. As long as it takes down cost

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Speaker 8: and increases returns overall, and there's somewhat of a reliability,

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Speaker 8: they're actually you know happy.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if that's what your experience as well,

422
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Speaker 5: but certainly that's.

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Speaker 2: I want to come back to the private and public

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Speaker 2: market discussion later on if you have time, but before then,

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Speaker 2: I find it weird that you are all sort of

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Speaker 2: big names institutional investors talking about new technology as if

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Speaker 2: they're very comfortable all the time with these new adventures.

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Speaker 2: These technology we're talking about, they're very new, unproven not

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Speaker 2: reasonable or sustainable business models. So far, how have you

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Speaker 2: guys been getting comfortable with this? Can I start with

431
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Speaker 2: you as an institutional investor? What does it take to

432
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Speaker 2: get comfortable with something like geothermal?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, So for us, there's a bit of a difference

435
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Speaker 7: on scale of investments. So for newer technologies, we may

436
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Speaker 7: make a small investment just to get exposure to a

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Speaker 7: sector that we find very interesting and exciting, such as geothermal,

438
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 7: and then we can be closer to see how it unfolds.

439
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 7: But for us to make an investment at scale and

440
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 7: really take a view on a technology, we need to

441
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 7: see a proof of concept operational track record.

442
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 6: So for some of the technologies.

443
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 7: That we've been discussing SMR, long duration energy storage, GEOTHERMO,

444
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 7: some of those we have taken very very small positions

445
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 7: to see how the technology is going to unfold, but

446
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 7: we are still waiting for a proof of concept, for

447
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 7: operational track records to invest in scale.

448
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 6: So that's how we think about it.

449
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: How long do you expect what take for something like

450
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 2: you've already acted on for like.

451
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 7: Gios, it really depends on how long it takes. There's

452
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 7: the policy element, the project element, so normally will take

453
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 7: a few years. So if I were to think about GEOTHERMO,

454
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 7: I probably think is going to be in the twenty

455
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 7: thirties SMRs ten years. So I think it will depend

456
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 7: on the technology. But you do need to see start

457
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 7: small with a small project and then starting building from that,

458
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 7: and when you get to that scale of project, that's

459
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 7: when we would start the point capital more broadly.

460
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: On the lending side of a bank, know that you

461
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 2: were a different hat slightly on the lending side of

462
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: the bank. How would a bank get comfortable with the

463
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: new technology and how has your team been approaching.

464
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's I mean it's the same as

465
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 4: on the equity side. In truth, I think you start small,

466
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 4: you get used to the ecosystem the sector side, you

467
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 4: spend some time with companies, you make small lending to

468
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 4: start with a candidly, more conservative parameters, and then as

469
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 4: technology builds out and you get more comfortable with it

470
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 4: and you feel like you have a good handle on

471
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 4: then you can scale it. And it's the same on

472
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 4: the equity side as on the dead side. I think

473
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 4: in terms of when we discuss it with our you know,

474
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: when we're on the advisory side, we speak to lots

475
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 4: of different kinds of capital providers, whether that's infrastructure or

476
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 4: public equity investors or private equity or growth equity. This

477
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 4: is about finding the right capital for the stage at

478
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 4: which the company or technology is at. And there is

479
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 4: you know, VC is obviously able to take a lot

480
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 4: more risk in technology then you know growth equity can.

481
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 3: And and in.

482
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 4: Truth that you know that that risk appetite is changing

483
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 4: all the time, and we've seen a bit of a

484
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 4: pullback in risk appetite and I think you have to

485
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 4: be very alive to that. And and but what is

486
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 4: the fundamental. The fundamental is if you have a first

487
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 4: mover with the technological advantage and the ability to scale,

488
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 4: that is doing does well. What doesn't do well is

489
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 4: if you're company number five, somewhere behind, no advantage and

490
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 4: you're late, and you know, the question is always well,

491
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 4: who is then the winner? But actually in this space,

492
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 4: what we've actually seen is is, you know, the first

493
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 4: few companies do very well and are able to raise

494
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 4: capital get good valuations, and others are they are finding

495
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 4: harder to do. So there's been a bit of a

496
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 4: shrinkage towards the sort of.

497
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: Front runners.

498
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: If if I can just pick pick up this private

499
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: versus public market kind of question. We've obviously seen a

500
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: lot of more discussions on private equity, private debt. How

501
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: have you seen this space changing changed over the past

502
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: year or two.

503
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think I mentioned a number of different

504
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 4: capital providers, but the reality is there's others. There's government

505
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 4: backed entities which have stepped in in certain areas where

506
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 4: you know, the private capital just can be there, there's

507
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 4: some risk private capitalists won't take. And you've also seen

508
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 4: credit funds and more structured capital to be more precise

509
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 4: on the risk allocation between capital provider and company. And

510
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 4: so that's been sort of I would say over the

511
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 4: last eighteen months, certainly a theme and part of our

512
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 4: job is to find the right capital for you know,

513
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 4: what is needed. Capital is there, to be clear, but

514
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 4: as you move on up on the risk spectrum or

515
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 4: on the technology risk, that capital gets smaller and you

516
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 4: have to be more structured and more innovative of doing it.

517
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: I mean, if you know, if.

518
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: You look at where's capital gone, and I think BNF

519
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 4: does a great job at sort of you know the

520
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 4: two point one trillion globally or you know, it's grids,

521
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 4: it's renewables, it's evs. Those are your top three. That's

522
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 4: the vast majority of the capital. The other parts are

523
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 4: still small. Storage will become a much bigger is become

524
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: a much bigger because it's cost competitive, it's low, so

525
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: I think and as things scale up, you will just

526
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 4: find mainstream capital just gravitate and the pool opens up

527
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 4: as a result.

528
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: Or you you also wear a hat on the BNP

529
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: private impact and MISS side of things. Can you tell

530
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: us a little bit about the private the private impact

531
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: and MIST kind of angle and how does that compare

532
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: to what Bianca and Ralph have mentioned.

533
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, No, absolutely, I mean and that means just really

534
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 8: just a focus on some of the solutions that we

535
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 8: need to drive decarbonization as an example.

536
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 5: But yes, we see.

537
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 8: This what a bit of interest in sort of the

538
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 8: early stage when enough sort of the VC community.

539
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 5: Is actually pretty active.

540
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 8: Uh and uh, there's a lot of interest there and

541
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 8: a lot of investors that have that are focused. And

542
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 8: then as these companies kind of scale up. And I'm

543
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 8: gonna end up quoting someone that I can't remember who

544
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 8: made up the term, but I'll copy it. Which is

545
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 8: the missing middle, you know, which is when some of

546
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 8: these companies that need to really scale up to say, okay,

547
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 8: we now have the technology, we have proof concept, you know,

548
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 8: we we build our demonstration plan, it looks really interesting.

549
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 8: We believe that we can scale it to this level

550
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 8: at a you know, cost of why level. Then and

551
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 8: that's when it gets really interesting. All of a sudden,

552
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 8: there's a little bit of a gap and where there's

553
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 8: a real seeming lack of capital and I think that's

554
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 8: a real opportunity actually, And there's a number of players

555
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 8: that are that are in that space, you know, but.

556
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 5: The the vast majority aren't.

557
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 8: And part of the reason for that is that you've

558
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 8: got private funds that are raised so much money that

559
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 8: you know, sitting spending you know, six months on due diligence,

560
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 8: and something where you can make a ten million dollar

561
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 8: investment just doesn't really seem like a great you know

562
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 8: use of time. If you have you know, ten billion,

563
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 8: you need to invest and then you'll go for the

564
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 8: bigger projects. And hence, you know, the bigger projects typically

565
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 8: have much high evaluations because there are these months amongst

566
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 8: the pools of capital that are choosing to follow sort

567
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 8: of the same private assets and Hence we've seen your

568
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 8: evaluations on the private sign and some of the large

569
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 8: odeals in the private space being quite high and sort

570
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 8: of dislocate from the public space. What's really cool is

571
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 8: to see the private capital moving into the public space

572
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 8: to take those private you know, you know, affording to

573
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 8: pay fifty six percent premiums and then still have a return.

574
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 8: So it tells you a little bit about, certainly on

575
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 8: the listed infrastructure side, how attract if some of those

576
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 8: investments are. But yeah, when I sat up with my

577
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 8: private hat on, my public hat on, you know, that's

578
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 8: really interesting and really helps to inform also maybe what's

579
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 8: around the corner.

580
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: We've been talking about this energy space as if raising

581
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: powdermand from AI and others will lift all boats right

582
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: to the degree that we don't necessarily need policy intervention anymore.

583
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: What does policy do in this environment? And how can

584
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: that help all of you to bring more capital if

585
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: there's not enough even though we said that there's good

586
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: enough capital. Yeah, I start from you.

587
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think policy is still key.

588
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 7: I think you had mentioned earlier that we have a

589
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 7: massive grid bottleneck in Europe.

590
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 6: It's a massive problem not just.

591
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 7: For generation but also for AI, for data centers to

592
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 7: connect to the grid. So policy and help streamline access

593
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 7: to grid unlock kind of like grid delays and grid

594
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 7: cueues as we're seeing in the UK for example. So

595
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 7: that's one similarly permitting process. I'm not saying anything new

596
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 7: takes years across every European market, so you could also

597
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 7: help use policy to unlock that. I also talked earlier

598
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 7: about flexible generation and the role of gas in the system.

599
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 7: I think policy play is a role in that, and

600
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 7: how you compensate those assets to capacity payments and ancillary services.

601
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 7: And I think last but not least, we've been talking

602
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 7: quite a bit about batteries. There is a role for

603
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 7: batteries to play with renewables. So thinking about a hybridized project,

604
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 7: I think there is still some thinking to go. How

605
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 7: do you actually compensate a project that is not just

606
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 7: a PPA for the renewables and a separate revenue stream

607
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 7: for the bass. I think regulation can also help with that,

608
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 7: help facilitate the deployment of bettery storage, but also rethink

609
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 7: the compensation framework for hybridized projects.

610
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 3: Mix this up a little.

611
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 8: Bit work, Yeah, I was just thinking on the anti

612
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 8: storage side. Maybe just to add to that, that I

613
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 8: think there's a lot of people that have this misconception

614
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 8: that anergy storage is just about storing energy, which is

615
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 8: not unusual given the name. But one of the things

616
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 8: that are really interesting about it, particularly in European markets,

617
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 8: is the volatility of power prices and power markets getting

618
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 8: more integrated, and in fact, a lot of the profitability

619
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 8: within angy storage lies in the sort of merchant area

620
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 8: where you know you're facing spot prices and you can

621
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 8: actually start trading power that goes from certain points in

622
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 8: the day negative. You know how many days if we

623
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 8: had negative power prices in the UK, I think it's

624
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 8: seventy one something like that, you know, to then power

625
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 8: prices going up by you know, tens of euros. You know,

626
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 8: these are spreads that anyone would love in any market

627
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 8: speak and and and those are the kind of spreads

628
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 8: that these energy storage guys are facing. But you know,

629
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 8: in terms of of if the question is more so,

630
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 8: how do we how do we solve for this power deficit?

631
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 5: If you will?

632
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 8: You know, policy is one thing I think, but I

633
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 8: do think at times that people tend to overestimate, particularly

634
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 8: now it's these technologies mature the role that politics have

635
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 8: and of course policy have somewhat like if you're getting

636
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 8: a tax credit or not.

637
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 5: A tax credit.

638
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 8: But you know, you're stepping back a little bit and

639
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 8: you look at certainly when it comes to the US.

640
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,959
Speaker 8: You know, K ANDNG never had a better time under

641
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 8: the current presidence first term. You know, K and G

642
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 8: never had a worse time during the term of the Democrats.

643
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 8: And K and G has never had a better time

644
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 8: than during since January. It's kind of, you know, not

645
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 8: what you would necessarily expect. You know, So this idea

646
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 8: that KNG has to be incredibly politicized, Now that's great

647
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 8: because what it means is that it's just economics. It

648
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 8: really just is about economics. And I think the best

649
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 8: thing that happened is that we are now reducing the

650
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 8: tax credits for the next couple of years to get

651
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 8: a much healthy industry. I think it's the best thing

652
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 8: that happened for renewables looking energy.

653
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: Well, any final thought.

654
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 4: Well, I started a discussion with saying policy is really important,

655
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 4: so I can't really backtrack.

656
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 3: I think you've got to have stability.

657
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 4: But you're also right, which is economics dry like when

658
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Speaker 4: you speak post a big beautiful bill and the change.

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Speaker 4: Everybody's like, I don't want to be exposed to subsidies.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to be exposed to changing regulatory regimes.

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Speaker 4: I want some base level of uncertainty and then I

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00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 4: want the economics to work, and that's where I'm going

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Speaker 4: to put my money.

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Speaker 3: So I think you need both.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think we started this panel having a struggle in

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Speaker 2: deciding between renewal energy and fossil fuel. I think in

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Speaker 2: the end everybody is picking has picked one side. I

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Speaker 2: think it's a very clear win for renewal of energy.

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Speaker 2: Somehow we got here. It's a good message.

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Speaker 3: I'll end on that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you everybody, and thank you for the palace.

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Speaker 3: Welcome.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray

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Speaker 2: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NEIF is a

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Speaker 2: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates.

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Speaker 1: as investment in vice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as

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Speaker 1: to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIF should not

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