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Speaker 1: Pushkin Happy Valentine's Day. As promised, I have a lovely

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Speaker 1: little treat for you on this most romantic of days.

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Speaker 1: In the last episode of The Happiness Lab, I chatted

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Speaker 1: with relationship experts Eli Finkel and Paul Eastwick to explore

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Speaker 1: what rom coms get right and wrong about romance. But

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Speaker 1: Eli and Paul have their own fabulous podcast. It's called

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Speaker 1: Love Factually, and it just so happens that I recently

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Speaker 1: joined them as a guest. So here's me and Eli

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Speaker 1: and Paul talking about the science of one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite ever rom coms, the movie Say Anything. I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy our conversation, and if you do, be sure

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Speaker 1: to check out Love Factually wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Love Factually, podcast that analyzes rom coms and

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Speaker 2: romantic films using the science of close relationships. We're your hosts,

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Speaker 2: Paul Eastwick and Eli Finkel. Welcoming in guest hosts of

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Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab podcast, Doctor Laurie Santos, thank you for

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Speaker 2: joining us today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me on the show.

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Speaker 2: So Laurie, tell us what are we talking about today?

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Speaker 1: So today we're talking about Say Anything. Cameron Crow's nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine rom com starting Hi John Cusack and Iomi Sky,

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Speaker 1: which Entertainment Weekly ranked in two thousand and two as

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Speaker 1: the number one romance movie of the past twenty five years.

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Speaker 1: Some of the themes we'll explore are how attachment bonds

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Speaker 1: transfer from appearent to a romantic partner, the benefits of optimism,

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Speaker 1: and what exactly counts as stalking.

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Speaker 2: And fair warning, we'll be spoiling this movie today, So

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Speaker 2: if you don't know how many songs one woman can

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Speaker 2: write about Joe and they're all about pain, then go

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Speaker 2: ahead and wats this movie and come back, okay? Eli

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Speaker 2: tell us who are the key characters and couples in

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Speaker 2: this movie.

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Speaker 3: The movie explores the love triangle involving Diane, her father Jim,

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Speaker 3: and her boyfriend Lloyd. The story takes place during the

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Speaker 3: summer after the young lovers graduate from high school. Diane,

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Speaker 3: played by Ione Sky, is the unassuming valedictorian who will

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Speaker 3: be leaving for a prestigious fellowship abroad at the end

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Speaker 3: of the summer. Her peers view her as pretty and kind,

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Speaker 3: but she's always been so busy that nobody really knows her. Jim,

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Speaker 3: played by John Mulaney is Diane's father. He and Diane's

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Speaker 3: mother divorced five years earlier, after which Diane chose to

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Speaker 3: live with him. His devotion to his daughter is boundless,

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Speaker 3: but the methods underlying that devotion are sometimes dubious. Lloyd,

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Speaker 3: played by cy John Cusack, is a principled slacker and

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Speaker 3: a devoted brother and uncle. His best friends are Corey

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Speaker 3: and DC, both girls, and his primary passions are kickboxing

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Speaker 3: and Diane. So, Paul, those are the chess pieces? Are

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Speaker 3: you ready to give us one minute on how the

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Speaker 3: film moves them across the board?

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Speaker 2: Red dye? Count me down. Here we go.

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Speaker 3: On your mark, Get set and go superachiever.

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Speaker 2: Diane Court delivers a graduation speech as Lloyd Dobbler plots

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Speaker 2: how to ask her out on a bona fide date.

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Speaker 2: He wins her over by asking her to go with

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Speaker 2: him to a graduation party and promising to give her

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Speaker 2: all his English tips because she's moving to England in

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Speaker 2: the fall for school. At the party, they orbit each

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Speaker 2: other as Diane meets all the people she never got

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Speaker 2: to know in high school, while Lloyd acts as key master.

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Speaker 2: They become friends with potential and plan to hang out

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Speaker 2: as much as they can. Over the next sixteen weeks,

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Speaker 2: Lloyd survives a family dinner at Diane's house. He visits

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Speaker 2: the retirement home run by her father. He teaches her

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Speaker 2: how to drive stick They have sex in the backseat,

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Speaker 2: listening to Peter Gabriel. Diane's father becomes more and more

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Speaker 2: disapproving of her relationship with Lloyd, and Diane ultimately relents.

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Speaker 2: She breaks it off with Lloyd, leading to eight unreturned

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Speaker 2: phone messages in a boom box Peter Gabriel serenade outside

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Speaker 2: her bedroom window. All this time, Diane's father has been

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Speaker 2: lying to her about evating taxes, but the i RS

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Speaker 2: closes in and she discovers her father's piles of cash.

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Speaker 2: Dan confronts her father, she makes up with Lloyd, Her

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Speaker 2: father goes to prison, and Diane Lloyd fly to England together.

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Speaker 2: As you promised here that everything will be okay once

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Speaker 2: the smoking sign goes down. Ah, you did it, amazing.

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Speaker 1: I was never going to pull that off. I was

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Speaker 1: going to get so stuck on my new details of

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Speaker 1: this film. Yes, amazing job pop.

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Speaker 2: It very challenging. Okay, Well, Laurie, why don't you kick

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Speaker 2: it up by telling us, what is your relationship to

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Speaker 2: this movie?

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Speaker 1: So I saw this movie back in the nineteen eighties

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid myself, and interestingly, I just

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Speaker 1: rewatched this movie with a friend from grad school and

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Speaker 1: his now two thirteen year old kids, and it was

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Speaker 1: fascinating to kind of rewatch the film because probably I

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Speaker 1: probably watched it around the time I was thirteen, if

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Speaker 1: it kind of came out around nineteen eighty eight, So

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Speaker 1: it was like a very strange full circle. But I

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Speaker 1: kind of both identified with Lloyd as being this sort

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Speaker 1: of like kind but clueless, don't really I know where

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Speaker 1: you're going type person, and also Diane in the sense

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Speaker 1: that she was like smart, not the pretty part. So

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Speaker 1: I was kind of the like, kind of unfortunate, not

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Speaker 1: very cool, but also smart person. So I like really

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Speaker 1: wanted this couple to get together. And then I think,

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Speaker 1: like all women who watch this film back of the day,

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Speaker 1: I just absolutely fell in love with Lloyd Dobbler. Everyone

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Speaker 1: wants their own Lloyd Dobbler, everyone wants the know, and this,

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Speaker 1: you know, Peter Gabriel serenade just the whole thing. So

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Speaker 1: for me, when I think of like eighties rom coms

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Speaker 1: that make me smile and honestly that still hold up today.

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Speaker 2: This is really one of them that's really cool. I

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Speaker 2: do think that it felt like a permission structure to

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Speaker 2: be a sensitive dude and that it but that you

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Speaker 2: could also kind of be admired for it at the

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Speaker 2: same time. And I also really liked too how he

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Speaker 2: seems to really be taken with Diane for many different reasons,

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Speaker 2: but also in part that she's like a badass and

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Speaker 2: killing it out there, right. I mean, she's, you know,

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Speaker 2: very smart and successful, and it's very clear that from

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Speaker 2: the beginning he's like, Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Lloyd Dobbler was like the og like

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Speaker 1: husband that's going to support the women's career, right like

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Speaker 1: in the eighties when that wasn't so much of a thing.

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Speaker 1: So I mean he's going to give up, you know,

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Speaker 1: his permanent kickboxing kind of teaching ship to fly to

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Speaker 1: England with her to help her out in her studies. Right,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, aspirational.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's cool. Well, Eli, what about you?

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Speaker 3: I had you know, I connected a lot of different ways,

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Speaker 3: So this one of them is is when I mentioned

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Speaker 3: on this podcast a couple of times that I acted

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Speaker 3: in high school, and there's something in Evanston called the

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Speaker 3: Piven piv E n known like Jerry Pivens parents, Jeremy

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Speaker 3: Pinen's parents Theater Workshop. So I took that when I

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Speaker 3: was sixteen and even then, so this was nineteen ninety one,

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Speaker 3: and you know famous alumni John and Joan Cusack, Jeremy

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Speaker 3: Piven himself, like a whole bunch of stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: And when I took it, I took it with you know,

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Speaker 3: Martin Scorsese's daughter. And then I sort of had my

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Speaker 3: first you know, serious sort of girlfriend situation there.

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Speaker 1: And was it Martin Scorsese's daughter.

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Speaker 3: You could say, no, oh no, no, I did not do.

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Speaker 3: That would have been quite the story. It was not.

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Speaker 3: But but what's interesting is just proving that I never

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Speaker 3: did grow up. I currently live one block from where

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Speaker 3: that that theater workshop is held.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, kidding. Yeah, Well, let's transition to talking about

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Speaker 2: what this movie gets right about the nature of close

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Speaker 2: relationships but also, you know, about the nature of happiness

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Speaker 2: and optimism more generally. So, Laurie, do you want to

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Speaker 2: kick it off for us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the reasons I love this film

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Speaker 1: is I think it really does a nice job of

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Speaker 1: showing the power of optimism, right, So Lloyd is this

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Speaker 1: like underachiever, like Diane, core has no idea who he is,

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Speaker 1: but he tells his friends, like his two girlfriends, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna like ask her out. And so Corey

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Speaker 1: and DC are just like, no, like, are you crazy?

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful?

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Speaker 2: What is it?

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Speaker 1: She's the brain with the body of a game show

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Speaker 1: host and she doesn't know it right, and so they're like,

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Speaker 1: she's just going to destroy you. Lloyd, like, don't do this.

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Speaker 1: But Lloyd is just like, I'm gonna go for it.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to ask her how And as we

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Speaker 1: see in the film, ultimately this works. And so this

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Speaker 1: raises this interesting question about like, is kind of believing

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Speaker 1: you can succeed at something that seems incredibly unlikely good

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Speaker 1: for you? Like does it make it more likely that

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Speaker 1: you're going to succeed at the thing. And it turns

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Speaker 1: out that there's some interesting psychology on this. There's this

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Speaker 1: famous effect in psychology called the Roger Banister effect, which

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Speaker 1: for you runners out there, you might know that Roger

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Speaker 1: Banister is a famous British runner who originally it was

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Speaker 1: the first guy to run the four minute mile back

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Speaker 1: in the day and they deal with the four minute mile.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even barely run like a ten

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Speaker 1: twenty minute forty minute miles.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So like nobody had run the four minute mile

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Speaker 1: before Roger Banister, but but importantly, no one thought anyone

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Speaker 1: could was actually believed to be beyond like human capacity, right,

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Speaker 1: And so Roger's like, I'm going to run the four

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Speaker 1: minute mile, and everyone's like that seems crazy. But then

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Speaker 1: there's one thing, it's raised in nineteen fifty four, he

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Speaker 1: ran it. But instantly what happened after that is people say, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it is humanly possible, we can run it, and like,

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Speaker 1: just like over a month later, somebody else ran the

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Speaker 1: four minute mile, and now subsequently a four minute mile

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Speaker 1: is like not even anything for somebody who's a real

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Speaker 1: runner to like super brag about, because so many people

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Speaker 1: have kind of done this at this point. And so

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Speaker 1: what does this mean. This means that Roger believing that

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Speaker 1: it was possible to run the four minute while when

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Speaker 1: everyone else thought it was impossible. The idea is that

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Speaker 1: his mental model of this made it easier for him

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Speaker 1: to actually physically achieve this, Like it allowed him to

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Speaker 1: engage in whatever behavior is he needed to do this,

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Speaker 1: like you know, practicing or sort of pushing himself or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Believing he could do it meant it made it easier

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Speaker 1: for him to do it. And I think this is

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Speaker 1: true for Lloyd too, right to believe he had to

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Speaker 1: do it, he had to call her up and you know,

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Speaker 1: just be his normal kind of jovial, kind funny, self

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Speaker 1: like little self effacing, but like he just went for

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Speaker 1: it and ultimately it worked.

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Speaker 2: That's great. I mean what I love about the Roger

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Speaker 2: Banister idea of Visa VI this movie is that we

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Speaker 2: also see the inspiration for other people. And so there's

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Speaker 2: this point at the at the party where where Lloyd

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Speaker 2: goes up to one of his friends, Mike Cameron, and

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Speaker 2: he's talking to him, and Mike Cameron says.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you, how did you get Diane

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Speaker 3: Court to go out with you?

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Speaker 2: I called her up?

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Speaker 3: But how come it worked? I mean, like, what are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm like dobblers?

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Speaker 3: This is great? Excuse me, Hope?

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Speaker 4: Thanks all right?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, right that quote and Mike is basically every

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Speaker 1: other runner, like in the late nineteen fifties who were like,

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Speaker 1: oh well, if your Roger Banister can do it, you know,

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Speaker 1: then the rest of us can do it too.

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Speaker 2: Eli, what do you got?

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, Laurie, I'm so psyched you mentioned this movie.

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Speaker 3: I had forgotten just how much is in here, and

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Speaker 3: watching it from the perspective of relationship science was deeply enlightening.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to start by talking about something that's a

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Speaker 3: little obscure in the movie, and it points to this

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Speaker 3: idea that I put a lot of stock in that

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Speaker 3: in a sense, social reality is reality, right, that basically

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Speaker 3: things exist within our social consensus. And the line Diane

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Speaker 3: says this to her dad, she says, it always feels

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Speaker 3: good to tell you the truth, because if I can't

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Speaker 3: share it with you, it's almost like it didn't happen.

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Speaker 3: It's such a great line. And going back into the sixties,

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Speaker 3: these sociologists Peter Berger and Hansfried Kellner had this paper

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Speaker 3: where they talked about the microsociology of knowledge, and really

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Speaker 3: what they're talking about is this idea that the reality

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Speaker 3: of the world is sustained in conversations with significant others. Now,

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Speaker 3: this is one with her dad, but more recently Maya Rassen,

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Speaker 3: yach Malone and Tory Higgins have done research on this

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Speaker 3: shared reality idea, and they talked about partners as making

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Speaker 3: sense of the world together, and they have this line

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Speaker 3: in one of their papers that I love, which is

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Speaker 3: that humans are truth cartographers, searching for epistemic companions with

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Speaker 3: whom to map out the bounds of reality. And the movie, again,

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Speaker 3: it focuses on a lot of things, but I think

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Speaker 3: one of the lesser noticed aspects of what they're doing

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Speaker 3: is they're playing in this space that that yes, you

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Speaker 3: can have these experiences, but until you've shared them with someone,

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Speaker 3: they are not fully real. And I love that about

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Speaker 3: this film.

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Speaker 1: Oh gay Eli, But that raises an interesting question that's

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Speaker 1: like shown in the title of the film, this idea

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Speaker 1: of say anything, like should we share all our realities

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Speaker 1: with people? I have to say again, rewatching this film

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Speaker 1: with thirteen year olds, the scene where Diane is telling

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Speaker 1: her dad about having sex because she's like she comes

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Speaker 1: home lay after the whole like sex in the car thing,

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Speaker 1: and then she's like, Okay, I just feel so sad

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Speaker 1: I can't share this with you, so I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to go through it dad, And she's just like, I

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Speaker 1: attacked him. It was so great, you know. It's sex

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Speaker 1: and Eilbu and the dad's face, and even these thirteen

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Speaker 1: year olds were like something major has been violated there.

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Speaker 1: This is a new This is a new, very much

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Speaker 1: more sharing generation. I think that the generation like Diane

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Speaker 1: came from. And so what does this science say there?

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Should we really be able to share anything?

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Speaker 1: Is honesty and shared reality about every truth important for relation? Sure?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look so I think there's two ways of engaging

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Speaker 3: with that, Laurie, I love this question. The first one

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Speaker 3: is about the shared reality aspect. And yes, I do

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Speaker 3: think there's something realer about her having sex with Lloyd

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Speaker 3: because she shared it with her dad. So in that sense,

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Speaker 3: I think this classic shared reality literature is correct. This

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Speaker 3: question of discretion. Are there circumstances under which we shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be sharing everything with everybody, even our close partners. I

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Speaker 3: don't think the field has gotten into this enough, but

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Speaker 3: I am persuaded that there are certain sorts of discretion,

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Speaker 3: certain sorts of things that are probably best not shared

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Speaker 3: in certain relationships. And it's true that Diane and her

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Speaker 3: dad had a very close and special bond, but in general,

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Speaker 3: like details about one's sex life, sharing those with one's parents,

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Speaker 3: might be a little dubious on average, that would be

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Speaker 3: my guess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and even in the movie, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there is this moment of like, oh my gosh, she's

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Speaker 1: telling her dad that she just had sex, but I

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Speaker 1: think it was in the context of her just saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm willing to share everything with you, even the tough things.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like that is actually an interesting message

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Speaker 1: that like with if we can't share our tough things

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Speaker 1: with close others, or controversial things or you know, sensitive things, like,

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Speaker 1: couldn't we share them with so So, Paul.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna throw it to you in a seconcause I

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Speaker 3: know you also must have identified a million things. But Laurie,

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Speaker 3: on this idea of say anything and share everything, I

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Speaker 3: think part of the title of the movie is really

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Speaker 3: about her dad's lie. We haven't talked too much about it,

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Speaker 3: but the whole conceit of their relationship is say anything.

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Speaker 3: But meanwhile, he's been involved in this embezzlement fraud and

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Speaker 3: you know, his motives are probably good. Maybe we'll touch

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Speaker 3: on that, but she's deeply shaken by it. And on

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Speaker 3: this idea of like social relationship partners as truth cartographers,

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Speaker 3: I find it interesting what happens to her when she

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Speaker 3: finds out she's deeply shaken and what she says. She

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Speaker 3: goes to Lloyd at that point, and she says, my

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Speaker 3: father's guilty. He lied to me, He lied to everybody.

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Speaker 3: I just left home. I need you. And I think

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Speaker 3: really what she needs is her reality. Her sense of

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Speaker 3: reality is kind of shaken, and she's looking to him

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Speaker 3: to find some sort of stability about the world. And

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Speaker 3: I do think part of why she went back to

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Speaker 3: him is this epistemic the world isn't making sense, Please

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Speaker 3: help motivation.

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Speaker 2: I think that actually leads into one of the other

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Speaker 2: things that I think this movie gets pretty correct, and

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Speaker 2: it is the attachment transfer that takes place as people age,

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Speaker 2: as people grow up. Typically for most adolescents, they will

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Speaker 2: tell you that the people that they have the strongest

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Speaker 2: attachment fonds with are their parents, and that includes various

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Speaker 2: behaviors like who do you want to be around? We

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Speaker 2: call it proximity seeking, right, but it's like who do

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Speaker 2: you want to be around? Who do you go to?

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Speaker 2: You for support when you're feeling down, we call that

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Speaker 2: safe haven? And then who do you go to for

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Speaker 2: advice or to celebrate and that we call the secure base,

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Speaker 2: and usually the transfer kind of goes in that order

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Speaker 2: as people move from having parents be their closest confidants

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Speaker 2: to having romantic partners be their closest confidants. So first

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Speaker 2: you want to spend all this time with a romantic party,

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Speaker 2: but you might still go to the parent for advice

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Speaker 2: or for support, and then the support transfers, and finally

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Speaker 2: it's that advice component that moves over to the romantic partner.

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Speaker 2: And I kind of see we I think we witness

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Speaker 2: her go through that process, and any lie that scene

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Speaker 2: you were just describing, I think is is the moment,

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Speaker 2: the final moment where she has the transfer is complete, although.

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Speaker 1: In her case I worry that like the she kind

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Speaker 1: of does that transfer, but it really is like the

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Speaker 1: only person that she ever talked to because she kind

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Speaker 1: of have friends in high school was the dead and

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Speaker 1: now it seems like the only person that she's talking

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Speaker 1: to now is Lloyd, which bracket it might be a

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Speaker 1: great prison talk to because Lloyd is kind and consider

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Speaker 1: it and the best significant other they're out there, ever,

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Speaker 1: but it's still it's risky, is still not really good,

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Speaker 1: and I think even Lloyd Woyd recognizes this at one

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Speaker 1: point in the film. He asks this question when she

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Speaker 1: comes back to him. He says, do you need me

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Speaker 1: or do you just need somebody else? Right? And I

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Speaker 1: think there's kind of a open He doesn't actually even

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Speaker 1: let her answer. He's like, never mind, I don't care,

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Speaker 1: and he just kisses her.

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Speaker 2: And this is really good.

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Speaker 1: Reunion is perfect, but I think it raises this question

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Speaker 1: of like, is this healthy that Diane is kind of

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Speaker 1: transferring this attachment but maybe not seeking out kind of

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Speaker 1: help support, safe haven's all these other things from just

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Speaker 1: like other humans in her life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, generally speaking, having a thin rather than a

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Speaker 2: more developed social network is not great for people. You

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Speaker 2: want to feel like your little diad is embedded in

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Speaker 2: a set of other people who are all invested in

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Speaker 2: helping your relationship to work, and so you know, people

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Speaker 2: going off on their own. It's very romantic, but it's

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Speaker 2: it's a little risky in.

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Speaker 1: The grand and it's an interesting contrast with like how

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Speaker 1: Lloyd Dobbler does it right. He's got Corey and DJ

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Speaker 1: his like close female friends to go to. He's got

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Speaker 1: this close relationship with his sister who's his actual sister

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Speaker 1: in real life, Joan Cusack right, and her son. He's

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Speaker 1: just like has this. He even has his like bevy

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Speaker 1: of dude friends at the sip and Go that he

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Speaker 1: goes to to talk to and get like relationship advice from.

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Speaker 1: But I think there's there's a sense in which, like,

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Speaker 1: Lloyd is healthier in part just because he has these

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Speaker 1: other support systems to go to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool, Well, Laurie, what else do you have about

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Speaker 2: this movie? The other things this movie gets right?

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Speaker 1: So so another thing I think this movie gets right,

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Speaker 1: or at least I really hope the relationship science fears

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Speaker 1: out and I hope it gets right right is this

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Speaker 1: question of like, who do you find attractive?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: You know, Lloyd is this kind of like you know, underachiever.

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Speaker 1: He just likes his kickboxing. He's kind of unremarkable, so

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Speaker 1: unremarkable that when and he first calls Diane, she she

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Speaker 1: pulls out her yearbook and starts flipping through to try

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Speaker 1: to look at him and like look at his sort

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Speaker 1: of just he's just not known to her, right, It's

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Speaker 1: really funny he's but he's kind She sees that kindness later,

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Speaker 1: even on that short phone call when he's asking her out.

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Speaker 1: He kind of makes her laugh and she's into that,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of raises us question, like, do we

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Speaker 1: pick people based on, you know, just their looks, just

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Speaker 1: their success criteria, what they're going to achieve in life,

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Speaker 1: whether they're going to get some huge fellowship and be valedictorian,

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Speaker 1: or do we pick people based just on how they

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Speaker 1: make us feel? Right, They're kind to us, they make

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Speaker 1: us laugh, they make us feel positive. And so my

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Speaker 1: sense is that this movie is winning out according to

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Speaker 1: the relationship science. But you two are the experts. What

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Speaker 1: is a science all?

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Speaker 3: You might have a thought or two on this one.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up, Laurie. In fact, your

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Speaker 2: your hopes for the way attraction works are indeed true.

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Speaker 2: That is very close to how people actually experience initial attraction,

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Speaker 2: which is what I think is happening in that scene

405
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Speaker 2: that you're described. So there's this classic study by Elaine

406
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Speaker 2: Walster than Wallster now Elaine Hatfield, connected in the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 2: and it's affectionately called the computer Dance Study. The idea

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Speaker 2: was that these researchers, they brought a number of college

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Speaker 2: freshmen together, set them up with each other, looked to

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Speaker 2: see who like whom. The lore of this study is that, ah,

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Speaker 2: only attractiveness mattered, nothing else really mattered. The reality is

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Speaker 2: they didn't like have great measures of the other stuff,

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Speaker 2: and even the measures they did have, it like kind

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Speaker 2: of worked. It's just I think everybody was surprised that

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Speaker 2: physical attractiveness was so potent. So when you look at

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Speaker 2: contemporary speed dating data sets, yes, the appeal of attractiveness

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Speaker 2: is very much present. It's very powerful, But so is confidence.

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Speaker 2: That's also a huge effect size, right, and then that's

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Speaker 2: Lloyd in a nutshell. So is being funny, so is

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Speaker 2: being nice and responsive. These are all positive, meaningful predictors.

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Speaker 2: It is not the case that only attractiveness matters. All

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Speaker 2: of those other features end up being important to So

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Speaker 2: I think you're spot on there.

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Speaker 1: And I love how the movie just develops Lloyd's moral

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Speaker 1: character over time. One of my favorite you mentioned it

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Speaker 1: in your quick summary. I was surprised they got in

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Speaker 1: their polity especially effective stro a summary was one of

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Speaker 1: the first things that Diane learns about Lloyd is, at

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Speaker 1: least at this party, he's the so called key master.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who may not remember eighties parties

431
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Speaker 1: is the person that gets to hold everybody's car keys

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Speaker 1: and so that they don't necessarily drive home drunk. So

433
00:21:44,756 --> 00:21:46,956
Speaker 1: Lloyd is sort of the evaluator of whether or not

434
00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:49,356
Speaker 1: somebody is ready to drive home. And we see in

435
00:21:49,396 --> 00:21:51,116
Speaker 1: the movie that this kind of comes to a head

436
00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:53,036
Speaker 1: with one of the friends who comes up to it

437
00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:54,876
Speaker 1: is screaming at him, and Lloyd is just like, you

438
00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:59,276
Speaker 1: must Joe, Joe can't you know, he doesn't give him

439
00:21:59,276 --> 00:22:00,956
Speaker 1: the keys, right. But I think that's a moment for

440
00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:04,316
Speaker 1: Diane to realize, like, oh, this person is responsible. It

441
00:22:04,396 --> 00:22:07,236
Speaker 1: can be responsible outside of your academic pursuits. But this

442
00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:09,836
Speaker 1: person is also kind of compassionate and kind Like she's

443
00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:13,156
Speaker 1: seeing all these like great strengths that he has not

444
00:22:13,276 --> 00:22:15,036
Speaker 1: in the context of her relationship, but just kind of

445
00:22:15,076 --> 00:22:16,996
Speaker 1: generally right. And I think that that must be a

446
00:22:17,076 --> 00:22:19,196
Speaker 1: huge I mean, it's a huge factor in why every

447
00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:21,116
Speaker 1: teenage girl who watched this movie in the eighties fell

448
00:22:21,156 --> 00:22:23,636
Speaker 1: in love with Lloyd Dobbler. Yeah, so must be good

449
00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:24,356
Speaker 1: for Diane too.

450
00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:25,276
Speaker 2: Yeah.

451
00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:30,236
Speaker 3: So on this like does the movie get the attraction right?

452
00:22:30,476 --> 00:22:34,756
Speaker 3: It does so many different ways. So it also plays

453
00:22:34,796 --> 00:22:38,836
Speaker 3: with some false myths that you know, she might be

454
00:22:38,876 --> 00:22:41,836
Speaker 3: out of his league. She's the brains with the body

455
00:22:41,836 --> 00:22:43,476
Speaker 3: of what did you say, the body of the game

456
00:22:43,516 --> 00:22:48,516
Speaker 3: show hostess. Yeah, so she's also brains. Stay with brains.

457
00:22:48,636 --> 00:22:51,156
Speaker 3: So one is this idea of the other is like, no,

458
00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:53,796
Speaker 3: some like likes attract like like what would she want

459
00:22:53,796 --> 00:22:57,356
Speaker 3: with you? You sort of burn out, you know, kickboxer,

460
00:22:57,836 --> 00:23:01,916
Speaker 3: And the movie basically puts the lie to all those

461
00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:03,996
Speaker 3: sorts of things. Of course, they're compatible because he's got

462
00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:06,236
Speaker 3: these other qualities and they're attentive to each other and

463
00:23:06,276 --> 00:23:08,436
Speaker 3: he makes her laugh. But one of the things that's

464
00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:12,516
Speaker 3: interesting is is we talk a lot about attraction on

465
00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:15,356
Speaker 3: this show, especially with regard to similarity. Right, So there's

466
00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:18,316
Speaker 3: this conventional view widespread that we're attracted to people who

467
00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:20,556
Speaker 3: are similar to us. Turns out if you study that,

468
00:23:20,596 --> 00:23:24,276
Speaker 3: we're attracted to people whom we think are similar to us.

469
00:23:24,716 --> 00:23:27,076
Speaker 3: And you see this here a little bit because you

470
00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:29,556
Speaker 3: see one of the reasons why this might emerge because

471
00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:34,636
Speaker 3: there's this scene where she works at an old person's

472
00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:37,436
Speaker 3: home retirement home, I'm not sure what they call it

473
00:23:37,436 --> 00:23:39,836
Speaker 3: at that time, and she says to Lloyd, do you

474
00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:42,036
Speaker 3: want to come by? And he's like, eh, And she says, like,

475
00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:44,996
Speaker 3: you seem to have something against old people, and then

476
00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:46,876
Speaker 3: he sort of says, well, no, I don't, but I

477
00:23:46,996 --> 00:23:49,636
Speaker 3: kind of do, because you know, I used to work

478
00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:51,836
Speaker 3: at a Shmorgos board and the old people would flock

479
00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:53,836
Speaker 3: there and they love to eat, and they just jam

480
00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:56,596
Speaker 3: their mouths, you know, they with their mouths open. And

481
00:23:56,676 --> 00:24:00,796
Speaker 3: she says, I think that's agism, and that's being prejudiced

482
00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:03,556
Speaker 3: against people because they're old. Maybe their mouths don't work

483
00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:07,476
Speaker 3: as well as yours. And he says, really, I, well,

484
00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:09,756
Speaker 3: you're really turning me around here. I was looking at

485
00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:12,156
Speaker 3: it the wrong way, I think. And there is research

486
00:24:12,196 --> 00:24:15,356
Speaker 3: on this concept called attitude alignment in close relationships, and

487
00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:17,396
Speaker 3: this has work than my advisor, Carol Ruspolt, was doing

488
00:24:17,396 --> 00:24:19,716
Speaker 3: in collaboration with a student who was there with me

489
00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:21,756
Speaker 3: named Jody Davis when I was in graduate school in

490
00:24:21,836 --> 00:24:24,596
Speaker 3: the late nineties. But what they find in that space

491
00:24:24,836 --> 00:24:27,636
Speaker 3: is that alignment is stronger to the extent that the

492
00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:30,676
Speaker 3: issue is central to the other person. And clearly Lloyd's

493
00:24:30,676 --> 00:24:33,396
Speaker 3: happy to recognize that Diane cares more about this than

494
00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:36,396
Speaker 3: he does, and it's stronger to the degree that the

495
00:24:36,436 --> 00:24:39,196
Speaker 3: relationship is important, and so what we see here is

496
00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:42,756
Speaker 3: this will masquerade as look how much they have in

497
00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:45,676
Speaker 3: common they both love old people, but only because he

498
00:24:45,756 --> 00:24:48,836
Speaker 3: basically tuned to her over time into it feels like

499
00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:51,156
Speaker 3: they have these things in common, but in reality they

500
00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:52,876
Speaker 3: developed them together over time.

501
00:24:53,276 --> 00:24:55,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that idea. It's also connected to one

502
00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:58,636
Speaker 2: of the things that I really appreciated about this movie,

503
00:24:59,196 --> 00:25:03,196
Speaker 2: which again sort of this nice guy manifesto idea for

504
00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:07,636
Speaker 2: how it can work. And I think it highlights the

505
00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:11,356
Speaker 2: importance of having fe female platonic friends if you are

506
00:25:11,396 --> 00:25:16,516
Speaker 2: a heterosexual man. And this is everywhere in the literature.

507
00:25:16,596 --> 00:25:20,156
Speaker 2: So if you look, for example, at correlations between like

508
00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:24,676
Speaker 2: hostile sexism and if you're a man having female friends,

509
00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:29,236
Speaker 2: that's a meaningful negative correlation there. The more female friends

510
00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:32,356
Speaker 2: you have, the less likely you are to endorse hostile sexism.

511
00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:34,756
Speaker 2: These ideas like oh, women are out to get men,

512
00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:37,916
Speaker 2: women are out to take advantage of men. Right, things

513
00:25:37,956 --> 00:25:40,476
Speaker 2: like this, and it's a simple inner group contact story.

514
00:25:40,556 --> 00:25:43,036
Speaker 2: We spend more time with people just getting to know

515
00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:46,356
Speaker 2: them as people, and we have less of those really

516
00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:51,076
Speaker 2: pernicious beliefs. Furthermore, having a bigger other gender network and

517
00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:54,716
Speaker 2: this is true for both men and women. Heterosexual men

518
00:25:54,756 --> 00:25:58,716
Speaker 2: and women, they're more likely to form relationships over a

519
00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:01,796
Speaker 2: few year period. This is also done on high school students.

520
00:26:02,156 --> 00:26:05,596
Speaker 2: So I think we're really seeing that here that these

521
00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:09,876
Speaker 2: are good ways to be in the world. If you

522
00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:13,476
Speaker 2: are a heterosexual man, so you're interested in women and

523
00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:16,556
Speaker 2: you want to actually get to know women and ultimately

524
00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:21,716
Speaker 2: date somebody that you're really into, this movie is pointing

525
00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:25,476
Speaker 2: out the one of the more effective ways to do that.

526
00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:30,516
Speaker 1: Plus, the female friends are sometimes incredible songstressing. That's right,

527
00:26:30,636 --> 00:26:31,596
Speaker 1: we'll get to that later.

528
00:26:31,716 --> 00:26:39,476
Speaker 2: Honestly, those songs were stuck in my head all day. Joes.

529
00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:42,716
Speaker 2: They're so catchy. Why no idea?

530
00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:45,196
Speaker 1: Yeah, she should have went on to write commercial jingos.

531
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:47,716
Speaker 1: I hope that she did well in life. When you

532
00:26:47,756 --> 00:26:49,716
Speaker 1: get that definition, it kind of sounds a little bit

533
00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:52,596
Speaker 1: like the kinds of things that Lloyd's kind of male

534
00:26:52,676 --> 00:26:55,316
Speaker 1: friends he seeks out right after Diane breaks up with him.

535
00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:58,116
Speaker 1: Some of the views they expressed about women, I think

536
00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:00,996
Speaker 1: the most succinct one was the youngest member of the

537
00:27:00,996 --> 00:27:02,636
Speaker 1: Sip and Go crew, which is just this little kid

538
00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:03,076
Speaker 1: who was like.

539
00:27:03,396 --> 00:27:07,316
Speaker 2: You, O, my god, oh my god. But another reason

540
00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:11,276
Speaker 2: that I totally I love that scene because again, it's

541
00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:15,916
Speaker 2: all bearing down on exposing the lie of the of

542
00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:21,516
Speaker 2: keeping the genders separate. And it's when Lloyd asked them,

543
00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:22,236
Speaker 2: I got.

544
00:27:22,156 --> 00:27:25,076
Speaker 1: A question, if you guys know so much about women,

545
00:27:25,116 --> 00:27:27,036
Speaker 1: how come you here at like a gass and sip

546
00:27:27,076 --> 00:27:30,236
Speaker 1: on Saturday night, completely lone drinking beers.

547
00:27:29,556 --> 00:27:37,076
Speaker 2: No women anywhere, and they really have choice? Yeah? Right,

548
00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:40,516
Speaker 2: uh huh. So anyway, there it points out.

549
00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:43,116
Speaker 1: I mean, I wish Lloyd Dobbler could like walk around

550
00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:45,756
Speaker 1: and like go to Embury and sell Reddit like thread

551
00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:47,916
Speaker 1: and just walk in and ask the same Loyd Dobbler

552
00:27:48,036 --> 00:27:49,876
Speaker 1: question to kind of break.

553
00:27:49,556 --> 00:27:55,076
Speaker 2: This up seriously. All right, so tell us about some

554
00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:57,916
Speaker 2: things that this movie gets wrong about the nature of

555
00:27:57,956 --> 00:28:00,196
Speaker 2: close relationships. Either of you, what do you? What do

556
00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:00,516
Speaker 2: you have?

557
00:28:01,436 --> 00:28:03,476
Speaker 1: I just said some of the movie gets wrong generally,

558
00:28:03,516 --> 00:28:06,076
Speaker 1: which is that kickboxing does not seem to be the

559
00:28:06,076 --> 00:28:12,436
Speaker 1: sports It was close, but a little bit that's not

560
00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:17,036
Speaker 1: really relationships. That's not really relationships. One of the things

561
00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:20,436
Speaker 1: I wanted to look at was this question of stocking,

562
00:28:21,596 --> 00:28:24,516
Speaker 1: because I think this movie portrays a kind of strange

563
00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:26,836
Speaker 1: version of it. It was definitely a version that you know,

564
00:28:27,316 --> 00:28:30,316
Speaker 1: I think based on all the memes that still exist now,

565
00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:34,476
Speaker 1: like like thirty years later, like the holding up the

566
00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:37,236
Speaker 1: boom box, which I was able to look up and

567
00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:41,716
Speaker 1: is in fact a sharp GF seventy six thousand.

568
00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:44,356
Speaker 2: Boom bombs, just like old schools.

569
00:28:44,396 --> 00:28:47,716
Speaker 1: Like holding that up, and that is the purely romantic boombox.

570
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:49,916
Speaker 1: I think you like, it's really hard to find them now.

571
00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:51,756
Speaker 1: I mean in part because it's like not the eighties anymore.

572
00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:54,076
Speaker 1: But I think people have bought them for the specific

573
00:28:54,236 --> 00:28:58,356
Speaker 1: act of sort of copying White Dollar. That's a move

574
00:28:58,396 --> 00:29:01,276
Speaker 1: that like is iconic. It's on T shirts and memes,

575
00:29:01,756 --> 00:29:06,356
Speaker 1: but it's also like border Light Stocker. And so Paul,

576
00:29:06,836 --> 00:29:09,236
Speaker 1: what is the movie kind of saying about Stocker?

577
00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:15,916
Speaker 2: And so I felt that the movie kind of gives

578
00:29:15,956 --> 00:29:22,596
Speaker 2: a pass to certain stalking behaviors. It treats it kind

579
00:29:22,636 --> 00:29:27,316
Speaker 2: of romantically, kind of I don't want to say how

580
00:29:27,356 --> 00:29:30,036
Speaker 2: to manual, but there's there's there's a couple of things happening.

581
00:29:30,196 --> 00:29:32,796
Speaker 2: One and I'll start with this, even though this really

582
00:29:32,836 --> 00:29:38,796
Speaker 2: seems benign. Are the eight phone messages right, eight left messages.

583
00:29:40,436 --> 00:29:43,516
Speaker 2: So there are studies that look at different forms of

584
00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:47,716
Speaker 2: stalking and Leaving messages or unwanted phone calls are some

585
00:29:47,796 --> 00:29:52,156
Speaker 2: of the most common ones. Those show the biggest discrepancy

586
00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:57,316
Speaker 2: between what the person who is being left feels is

587
00:29:57,436 --> 00:30:00,876
Speaker 2: likely to be unpleasant, and what the person who is

588
00:30:00,996 --> 00:30:04,396
Speaker 2: being stalked feels. People who are being stocked hate the

589
00:30:04,436 --> 00:30:08,436
Speaker 2: phone messages, they really want them to stop, and the

590
00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:10,916
Speaker 2: people leaving the messages or like, oh whatever, I'm sure

591
00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:15,636
Speaker 2: it didn't really bother them. They're really really unpleasant, and

592
00:30:15,876 --> 00:30:20,716
Speaker 2: so is showing up at somebody's house uninvited. Also not

593
00:30:21,196 --> 00:30:24,356
Speaker 2: the kind of thing that most people look upon very

594
00:30:24,356 --> 00:30:28,276
Speaker 2: favorably if they've broken up with somebody. I think that

595
00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:31,836
Speaker 2: I think that whole meme, the whole idea, Like rewatching it,

596
00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:35,196
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is not what I remembered.

597
00:30:35,836 --> 00:30:40,636
Speaker 2: I remembered something inspiring, not like triumphant, but like like

598
00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:43,276
Speaker 2: let's go like let's defy your father. That is not

599
00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:44,836
Speaker 2: what that scene is it at all.

600
00:30:44,996 --> 00:30:47,516
Speaker 1: Yeah, all the adults that I watched this film with

601
00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:51,876
Speaker 1: remember the boombox scene as ending with Diane kind of

602
00:30:51,956 --> 00:30:54,076
Speaker 1: rushing out and that's when they made up, and like

603
00:30:54,236 --> 00:30:57,156
Speaker 1: it kind of worked, And I was like, first it

604
00:30:57,196 --> 00:30:59,876
Speaker 1: didn't work. He's just like creepily showing up with spoo

605
00:30:59,996 --> 00:31:01,196
Speaker 1: box in the middle of the night.

606
00:31:01,396 --> 00:31:03,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would have been It would have been better

607
00:31:03,116 --> 00:31:04,996
Speaker 3: if they had the scene where he got back into

608
00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:07,956
Speaker 3: his car and drove home. That scene never made it into.

609
00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:11,076
Speaker 1: The Yes, right, So he thought really carefully and was like,

610
00:31:11,156 --> 00:31:13,396
Speaker 1: maybe that was a little too much, like I should.

611
00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:16,516
Speaker 2: Really respect And so I want to actually want to

612
00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:20,236
Speaker 2: give the movie credit for that, that it actually didn't

613
00:31:20,676 --> 00:31:25,036
Speaker 2: show that working right, and that it and that a

614
00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:28,196
Speaker 2: number of other things have to transpire before she changes

615
00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:31,396
Speaker 2: her mind. So it's more I think that I'm critiquing

616
00:31:31,516 --> 00:31:35,236
Speaker 2: the way the movie lodged itself in our collective memories.

617
00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:38,916
Speaker 2: Contained some things that I think the movie didn't intend

618
00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:40,836
Speaker 2: but aren't a very good idea.

619
00:31:42,116 --> 00:31:45,236
Speaker 3: Laurie, you're gonna regret that you ever chose to be

620
00:31:45,276 --> 00:31:46,996
Speaker 3: on our show. But I have a question for you

621
00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:51,716
Speaker 3: about this. So what does it mean to seduce someone?

622
00:31:52,036 --> 00:31:52,116
Speaker 1: Like?

623
00:31:52,156 --> 00:31:57,036
Speaker 3: What does seduction mean if we stipulate that it isn't

624
00:31:57,076 --> 00:32:00,396
Speaker 3: stuff like this, right, if it isn't stuff like well,

625
00:32:00,476 --> 00:32:03,636
Speaker 3: she wasn't sure, So I tried to be more charming.

626
00:32:03,716 --> 00:32:07,116
Speaker 3: I did something innovative. I left a funny phone message

627
00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:11,396
Speaker 3: or ate, and I agree that, like, I don't think

628
00:32:11,436 --> 00:32:15,036
Speaker 3: we really want these behaviors. Again, the movie gets away

629
00:32:15,036 --> 00:32:16,236
Speaker 3: with it in a way a lot of these old

630
00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:18,876
Speaker 3: movies get away with it because she actually did want it, right,

631
00:32:18,916 --> 00:32:22,596
Speaker 3: That's the thing that he can't know, And certainly she's

632
00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:24,996
Speaker 3: not giving him reason to believe that she really wants it,

633
00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:27,276
Speaker 3: but she did, and so it's sort of okay from

634
00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:30,516
Speaker 3: our perspective, from the viewer's perspective. But Laurie, do you

635
00:32:30,556 --> 00:32:34,516
Speaker 3: have an opinion, like what would it mean to be

636
00:32:34,596 --> 00:32:37,716
Speaker 3: interested in somebody, be unsure whether that person is interested

637
00:32:37,756 --> 00:32:42,076
Speaker 3: in you, and to try to persuade them that, you know,

638
00:32:42,636 --> 00:32:45,796
Speaker 3: give me a try, like it'll be fun? And is

639
00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:49,196
Speaker 3: it if it isn't this, if it isn't what Lloyd

640
00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:51,436
Speaker 3: Dobbler did in this movie, Like what does it look like?

641
00:32:52,876 --> 00:32:54,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it is kind of what Lloyd

642
00:32:54,636 --> 00:32:57,116
Speaker 1: Dobbler does, not with the boombox part, but with the

643
00:32:57,156 --> 00:33:00,276
Speaker 1: other parts. Right, it's really thinking from the other person's

644
00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:03,716
Speaker 1: perspective about how to help them and what they need. Right.

645
00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:06,516
Speaker 1: One of the scenes in the beginning that Diane Court

646
00:33:06,516 --> 00:33:08,956
Speaker 1: actually comments on to her dad later when she's like, well,

647
00:33:08,956 --> 00:33:10,236
Speaker 1: you is why I fell in love with Dloyd was

648
00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:12,756
Speaker 1: that they're just kind of walking around and Lloyd notices

649
00:33:12,796 --> 00:33:15,076
Speaker 1: some broken glass on the ground and you know, it's

650
00:33:15,156 --> 00:33:17,716
Speaker 1: post parties, so she's kind of walking around barefoot. He's like, no, no,

651
00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:19,396
Speaker 1: let me just move that out of the way for you.

652
00:33:19,516 --> 00:33:22,356
Speaker 1: Like he's thinking about it from her perspective. He's kind

653
00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:26,156
Speaker 1: of perspective taking in that case, hopefully accurately about what

654
00:33:26,196 --> 00:33:28,836
Speaker 1: she really needs. And I think that's the spot where

655
00:33:28,836 --> 00:33:31,636
Speaker 1: it kind of seduction works best, like when we're kind

656
00:33:31,636 --> 00:33:34,756
Speaker 1: of perspective taking about what would help another person, but

657
00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:38,516
Speaker 1: then looking for signs of consent, right, And that's the

658
00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:40,996
Speaker 1: spot where I think the boom Box is kind of

659
00:33:40,996 --> 00:33:43,236
Speaker 1: on the borderline. But even Lloyd, again, I'm kind of

660
00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:46,716
Speaker 1: defending him because he's just Sizemoy Lloyd Dobbler, and you know,

661
00:33:46,916 --> 00:33:49,036
Speaker 1: how can I, like, you know, regret all the things

662
00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:51,556
Speaker 1: I watched in the eighties and those things. But even

663
00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:53,516
Speaker 1: then he has this sign where people are trying to

664
00:33:53,556 --> 00:33:55,716
Speaker 1: convince him to call her some more. I think it

665
00:33:55,756 --> 00:33:57,396
Speaker 1: was his girlfriends or trying to convince him to call

666
00:33:57,436 --> 00:33:59,676
Speaker 1: him some more, and he says, I draw the line

667
00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:03,476
Speaker 1: at eight. You know, answer messages, and to be fair bracketed,

668
00:34:03,596 --> 00:34:06,156
Speaker 1: I do think that, like maybe it was okay to

669
00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:08,156
Speaker 1: do a little more in the eighties just because like

670
00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:10,196
Speaker 1: sometimes if you were running for the.

671
00:34:10,196 --> 00:34:12,916
Speaker 2: Phone, like you didn't know that's a good point. And

672
00:34:12,996 --> 00:34:14,156
Speaker 2: the cell phone.

673
00:34:13,876 --> 00:34:15,876
Speaker 1: Goes to the message they don't want to talk to you,

674
00:34:15,876 --> 00:34:18,436
Speaker 1: But the answer machine sometimes is like the chords really

675
00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:20,956
Speaker 1: far away. They don't have any pocket, you know. So,

676
00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:24,236
Speaker 1: but but but Lloyd is saying, I'm setting a boundary, right,

677
00:34:24,236 --> 00:34:26,196
Speaker 1: I'm giving her a chance, but I'm drawing the line

678
00:34:26,316 --> 00:34:26,836
Speaker 1: a home.

679
00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:29,316
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's persuaded to do that one last one, and

680
00:34:29,356 --> 00:34:31,396
Speaker 2: then we see right that she almost picks it up.

681
00:34:31,716 --> 00:34:35,436
Speaker 2: So he gets an out from our perspective because we

682
00:34:35,556 --> 00:34:37,676
Speaker 2: know what's going on a little bit behind the scenes.

683
00:34:39,036 --> 00:34:42,396
Speaker 1: I hope you're enjoying my appearance on the new podcast Love. Factually,

684
00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:44,996
Speaker 1: it's time for a quick break, but Paul Eli and

685
00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:47,716
Speaker 1: I will be back soon to explain what other things

686
00:34:47,756 --> 00:34:50,396
Speaker 1: say anything gets wrong about relationship science?

687
00:34:56,596 --> 00:34:59,796
Speaker 2: So anything else about what this movie gets wrong about?

688
00:34:59,996 --> 00:35:01,196
Speaker 2: Close relationships? Eli?

689
00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:04,196
Speaker 3: What do you have? Look? It mostly gets stuff right,

690
00:35:04,236 --> 00:35:06,596
Speaker 3: but you know it makes some errors, like every movie,

691
00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:10,556
Speaker 3: and one of them is you know, a very forgivable error.

692
00:35:10,996 --> 00:35:14,156
Speaker 3: But generally it's risky to make forever promises in the

693
00:35:14,156 --> 00:35:17,196
Speaker 3: first weeks and months of a new relationship. And so

694
00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:20,876
Speaker 3: the letter that he writes to her, Lloyd writes this

695
00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:23,596
Speaker 3: letter to Diane after they have sex and he's really

696
00:35:23,636 --> 00:35:27,396
Speaker 3: into her, and the letter in its entirety is Dear Diane,

697
00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:29,716
Speaker 3: I'll always be there for you all the love in

698
00:35:29,756 --> 00:35:32,276
Speaker 3: my heart Lloyd. Now I don't have a problem with

699
00:35:32,356 --> 00:35:35,436
Speaker 3: dear Diane or all the love in my heart or Lloyd,

700
00:35:35,796 --> 00:35:38,636
Speaker 3: but I think the part when he says I'll always

701
00:35:38,636 --> 00:35:39,236
Speaker 3: be there for.

702
00:35:39,236 --> 00:35:43,596
Speaker 2: You it's always, is probably.

703
00:35:43,316 --> 00:35:48,196
Speaker 3: A bold commitment that he's actually he's making a vow

704
00:35:48,836 --> 00:35:52,196
Speaker 3: that he really is probably not in a position to make.

705
00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:55,196
Speaker 3: And we do this. We do this a lot, and

706
00:35:55,396 --> 00:35:58,796
Speaker 3: it's desirable and we like it, and we want to

707
00:35:58,796 --> 00:36:00,716
Speaker 3: feel this way. We stand up at our wedding vows

708
00:36:00,756 --> 00:36:02,956
Speaker 3: and say I will love you forever. These seem like

709
00:36:03,036 --> 00:36:06,036
Speaker 3: high risk choices for somebody who takes seriously what the

710
00:36:06,076 --> 00:36:08,876
Speaker 3: definition of a vow is. But I do think this

711
00:36:08,916 --> 00:36:10,836
Speaker 3: is one of the cases where I just felt a

712
00:36:10,836 --> 00:36:15,076
Speaker 3: little sheepish about suggesting that the really romantic thing to

713
00:36:15,076 --> 00:36:17,716
Speaker 3: do is to tell somebody something that you really cannot

714
00:36:18,716 --> 00:36:21,556
Speaker 3: you probably cannot promise you're gonna be able to deliver overtime.

715
00:36:21,716 --> 00:36:23,716
Speaker 1: Yeah, you forget when you see the movie because it

716
00:36:23,756 --> 00:36:26,196
Speaker 1: seems like it's built over this whole, you know, to

717
00:36:26,316 --> 00:36:29,396
Speaker 1: our period. It's a little ROBYO or Juliet, right. You know,

718
00:36:29,516 --> 00:36:31,756
Speaker 1: they've only really kind of hung out with each other

719
00:36:31,796 --> 00:36:33,996
Speaker 1: for like a couple of days really, you know.

720
00:36:34,556 --> 00:36:37,756
Speaker 2: Right, and you and even you know, it's over sixteen

721
00:36:37,796 --> 00:36:41,236
Speaker 2: weeks and now they are going to a foreign country

722
00:36:41,316 --> 00:36:46,316
Speaker 2: together to presumably to live together. And that is pretty

723
00:36:46,356 --> 00:36:49,396
Speaker 2: fast to jump into that level of commitment. And the

724
00:36:49,436 --> 00:36:54,476
Speaker 2: movie clearly wants us to feel that we are witnessing

725
00:36:54,556 --> 00:36:58,036
Speaker 2: a success story. I mean, you know, the ending, I

726
00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:01,476
Speaker 2: love it, and I love the contrast with the graduate

727
00:37:02,076 --> 00:37:03,796
Speaker 2: right that it's you know, here are these two people

728
00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:06,556
Speaker 2: embarking on this adventure and this one. We're supposed to

729
00:37:06,556 --> 00:37:09,756
Speaker 2: be rooting for them and feeling like they've got it.

730
00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,196
Speaker 2: But the reality is sixteen weeks. That is quite a

731
00:37:13,316 --> 00:37:16,076
Speaker 2: leap of faith to think that they've got it figured

732
00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:16,876
Speaker 2: out at this point.

733
00:37:16,996 --> 00:37:19,516
Speaker 3: You know, Paul, It's interesting because I actually think this

734
00:37:19,596 --> 00:37:21,636
Speaker 3: is the other thing that maybe the movie doesn't get

735
00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:25,516
Speaker 3: right and this depends on interpretation, but like, what is

736
00:37:25,556 --> 00:37:28,276
Speaker 3: the point of the ding on the airport, Like this

737
00:37:28,396 --> 00:37:30,876
Speaker 3: is literally the last thing that happens in the entire movie.

738
00:37:30,956 --> 00:37:33,436
Speaker 3: It's obvious that this is supposed to be really significant.

739
00:37:33,516 --> 00:37:34,996
Speaker 2: Good though it's good.

740
00:37:38,836 --> 00:37:44,036
Speaker 3: Reading, there is a reading where you're basically like, the

741
00:37:44,116 --> 00:37:46,796
Speaker 3: early parts of a relationship are turbulent. So again just

742
00:37:46,836 --> 00:37:48,876
Speaker 3: a reminder for people who haven't seen the movie. This

743
00:37:49,076 --> 00:37:52,836
Speaker 3: early Diana is scared of flying and Lloyd is with

744
00:37:52,876 --> 00:37:54,956
Speaker 3: her on this flight, literally the last scene of the movie.

745
00:37:54,996 --> 00:37:57,796
Speaker 3: They're going to England for this fellowship that she has,

746
00:37:57,796 --> 00:37:59,956
Speaker 3: and he says, like, if anything goes wrong, it's going

747
00:37:59,996 --> 00:38:01,756
Speaker 3: to be within the first five minutes, So you just

748
00:38:01,796 --> 00:38:03,716
Speaker 3: have to make it to the ding the airport, the

749
00:38:04,116 --> 00:38:06,436
Speaker 3: take off your seat belt ding. I think it was

750
00:38:06,476 --> 00:38:07,596
Speaker 3: the no smoking ding in.

751
00:38:07,556 --> 00:38:11,236
Speaker 1: The no smoking ding speaking because everybody else on the

752
00:38:11,276 --> 00:38:14,636
Speaker 1: plane is like holding their parettes, wait till they get

753
00:38:14,716 --> 00:38:15,196
Speaker 1: light what up?

754
00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:17,036
Speaker 2: I think right, the ding is light up.

755
00:38:17,276 --> 00:38:19,836
Speaker 3: It is basically like but either way it could have

756
00:38:19,876 --> 00:38:23,916
Speaker 3: been the seatbuilting. And so one reading is that now

757
00:38:23,956 --> 00:38:27,836
Speaker 3: they're through the turbulent time and we're witnessing like the

758
00:38:27,916 --> 00:38:31,956
Speaker 3: ding is like and now it's smooth sailing. And if

759
00:38:32,196 --> 00:38:35,796
Speaker 3: that is what Cameron Crow intended, I think he's really

760
00:38:35,796 --> 00:38:39,036
Speaker 3: guilty of the and they all lived happily ever after

761
00:38:39,876 --> 00:38:42,396
Speaker 3: sort of things. Yeah, I think that is My other

762
00:38:42,516 --> 00:38:45,196
Speaker 3: concern about the movie is that if he was implying

763
00:38:45,236 --> 00:38:48,076
Speaker 3: something like that in the closing scene, that strikes me

764
00:38:48,116 --> 00:38:51,036
Speaker 3: as wildly incorrect about what the next sixty years of

765
00:38:51,036 --> 00:38:52,316
Speaker 3: that relationship might look.

766
00:38:52,196 --> 00:38:56,596
Speaker 1: Like, or the next like, you know, four months and

767
00:38:56,636 --> 00:39:00,236
Speaker 1: she starts studying and there's no kickboxing and all of London.

768
00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:02,596
Speaker 2: And right, and what exactly is he going to do

769
00:39:02,636 --> 00:39:04,716
Speaker 2: with himself? I think that's right. I think compared to

770
00:39:04,756 --> 00:39:07,716
Speaker 2: some movies where they get together at the end and

771
00:39:07,756 --> 00:39:11,436
Speaker 2: then we don't see anything about them encountering challenges, I

772
00:39:11,516 --> 00:39:13,956
Speaker 2: think those versions are worse because we do see them

773
00:39:14,316 --> 00:39:18,236
Speaker 2: overcoming some stuff here. But I hear you. As much

774
00:39:18,276 --> 00:39:21,516
Speaker 2: as I love the way that whole ending is done,

775
00:39:22,156 --> 00:39:25,116
Speaker 2: I get it that you know that there are trials

776
00:39:25,116 --> 00:39:25,396
Speaker 2: to come.

777
00:39:25,636 --> 00:39:27,876
Speaker 1: Can I just can I just like, can I try

778
00:39:27,876 --> 00:39:33,796
Speaker 1: out a like a more empirically sane version. Yes, what

779
00:39:34,036 --> 00:39:37,356
Speaker 1: if that whole plane flight where there's a lot of turbulence,

780
00:39:37,356 --> 00:39:40,076
Speaker 1: like an unusual amount of turbulence for like a plane

781
00:39:40,076 --> 00:39:42,916
Speaker 1: taking off before the seatbeltding goes off. What if that

782
00:39:43,076 --> 00:39:45,396
Speaker 1: is kind of a metaphor for like, we're gonna go

783
00:39:45,476 --> 00:39:47,876
Speaker 1: on this, you know, trip together, the long version of

784
00:39:47,956 --> 00:39:50,076
Speaker 1: our life together is gonna have a lot of turbulence,

785
00:39:50,356 --> 00:39:52,836
Speaker 1: but by holding each other's hand, we'll get through it,

786
00:39:52,916 --> 00:39:54,956
Speaker 1: and you know, we'll kind of wait for the day.

787
00:39:55,036 --> 00:39:55,476
Speaker 3: You know it's fair.

788
00:39:55,516 --> 00:39:55,756
Speaker 2: I don't know.

789
00:39:55,916 --> 00:39:57,716
Speaker 3: You know what's funny about that, LORI, is that that

790
00:39:58,196 --> 00:40:00,356
Speaker 3: reminds me of the point you made earlier about the

791
00:40:00,356 --> 00:40:03,396
Speaker 3: social network. Because his friends, he's got these two really

792
00:40:03,396 --> 00:40:07,116
Speaker 3: close women friends, girl friends, I guess, and they have

793
00:40:07,236 --> 00:40:10,436
Speaker 3: also packed some stuff for this for them, right, They've

794
00:40:10,436 --> 00:40:12,596
Speaker 3: packed some things to make sure, like I think they

795
00:40:12,596 --> 00:40:14,516
Speaker 3: know that she's nervous about flying and they're having this

796
00:40:14,596 --> 00:40:16,636
Speaker 3: adventure together as a couple for the first time, and

797
00:40:16,756 --> 00:40:19,796
Speaker 3: so those friends who are really invested in the relationship

798
00:40:20,036 --> 00:40:22,716
Speaker 3: have packed for them some nice things for the trip.

799
00:40:22,756 --> 00:40:25,556
Speaker 3: And that is I think hearkens back to Wow, they

800
00:40:25,556 --> 00:40:28,116
Speaker 3: seem to have a pretty good foundation for a lot

801
00:40:28,156 --> 00:40:29,916
Speaker 3: of what they might be going through next.

802
00:40:30,476 --> 00:40:33,276
Speaker 2: That's cool. It's like a wedding thing, right, It's like,

803
00:40:33,756 --> 00:40:36,876
Speaker 2: you know, you get everybody together to sort of give you,

804
00:40:36,876 --> 00:40:42,396
Speaker 2: you know, well, wishes on your way. I object, So

805
00:40:42,716 --> 00:40:45,596
Speaker 2: are we okay with this? Anything in this movie raised

806
00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:50,796
Speaker 2: moral quandaries or other concern to other things? Age badly?

807
00:40:51,116 --> 00:40:52,316
Speaker 2: What does it everybody have here?

808
00:40:52,436 --> 00:40:52,556
Speaker 4: Well?

809
00:40:52,556 --> 00:40:54,836
Speaker 1: I could say. What was interesting was that, as I mentioned,

810
00:40:54,836 --> 00:40:58,036
Speaker 1: I watched it with twenty twenty four thirteen year old

811
00:40:59,156 --> 00:41:02,796
Speaker 1: and they genuinely really liked the film. They had two

812
00:41:02,876 --> 00:41:04,356
Speaker 1: things that were kind of funny, and maybe this is

813
00:41:04,356 --> 00:41:06,396
Speaker 1: that they were a little young. One was that, well,

814
00:41:06,436 --> 00:41:08,476
Speaker 1: first of all, we were watching with their dad, and

815
00:41:08,516 --> 00:41:10,916
Speaker 1: so they really did and like the sexy's like, oh god,

816
00:41:10,996 --> 00:41:12,916
Speaker 1: they're kissing, why are they under the blanket?

817
00:41:12,956 --> 00:41:13,756
Speaker 2: Why is he shaky?

818
00:41:13,796 --> 00:41:16,556
Speaker 1: Like they just literally couldn't handle that. But the second

819
00:41:16,636 --> 00:41:20,236
Speaker 1: thing was that they were really confused when Diane broke

820
00:41:20,316 --> 00:41:23,236
Speaker 1: up with BOYD, where they're like, but she doesn't think that?

821
00:41:23,316 --> 00:41:25,596
Speaker 1: Why is she saying that she doesn't think that? And

822
00:41:26,036 --> 00:41:28,076
Speaker 1: they kind of just like couldn't get it, Like they

823
00:41:28,156 --> 00:41:31,196
Speaker 1: kind of couldn't handle her kind of confusion based on

824
00:41:31,196 --> 00:41:32,676
Speaker 1: what was going on with her dad of sort of

825
00:41:32,676 --> 00:41:34,916
Speaker 1: stepping away and they're like, but she doesn't think that right,

826
00:41:34,956 --> 00:41:36,876
Speaker 1: they're going to get back together, right, like they kind

827
00:41:36,876 --> 00:41:39,356
Speaker 1: of were seeing And so maybe this is the current

828
00:41:39,396 --> 00:41:41,676
Speaker 1: generation having a hard time with like, you know, tough

829
00:41:41,676 --> 00:41:45,036
Speaker 1: emotions or complicated conflict in the film. But they had

830
00:41:45,036 --> 00:41:45,716
Speaker 1: a really tough time.

831
00:41:45,916 --> 00:41:46,836
Speaker 2: That's really interesting.

832
00:41:47,276 --> 00:41:47,516
Speaker 1: You know.

833
00:41:47,716 --> 00:41:49,956
Speaker 3: One of the things that was really eye opening about

834
00:41:49,956 --> 00:41:52,116
Speaker 3: watching it again and here, Laurie, thank you again for

835
00:41:52,156 --> 00:41:54,996
Speaker 3: recommending this one. It was just a delight. Is it's

836
00:41:54,996 --> 00:41:57,876
Speaker 3: not just a move for kids that was that was

837
00:41:57,916 --> 00:41:59,836
Speaker 3: something that I think you're describing here, like the thirteen

838
00:41:59,916 --> 00:42:02,236
Speaker 3: year olds didn't get it, but also as somebody who

839
00:42:02,276 --> 00:42:04,556
Speaker 3: is now a dad, I'm actually a dad of a

840
00:42:04,556 --> 00:42:07,956
Speaker 3: teen girl, and I just thought a whole lot more

841
00:42:08,076 --> 00:42:11,116
Speaker 3: about the dad daughter or dynamic. And the truth is

842
00:42:11,196 --> 00:42:14,116
Speaker 3: I at the top called this like a love triangle.

843
00:42:14,156 --> 00:42:16,316
Speaker 3: I don't think that's the standard way people think about

844
00:42:16,316 --> 00:42:18,356
Speaker 3: this movie, but I do think that's what's happening, is

845
00:42:18,396 --> 00:42:21,236
Speaker 3: that these are two men who are deeply in love

846
00:42:21,276 --> 00:42:23,756
Speaker 3: with obviously there's nothing sexual with her dad, of course,

847
00:42:23,836 --> 00:42:26,316
Speaker 3: but deeply in love with her that she is going

848
00:42:26,396 --> 00:42:29,716
Speaker 3: to be somewhat or to a significant degree, the center

849
00:42:30,476 --> 00:42:34,116
Speaker 3: of their lives, and she's trying to balance that, and

850
00:42:34,116 --> 00:42:36,996
Speaker 3: she feels awkward about this time that she's spending with Lloyd,

851
00:42:37,076 --> 00:42:38,916
Speaker 3: given that she's going away, and she feels like maybe

852
00:42:38,916 --> 00:42:41,196
Speaker 3: she should be with her dad. And so I think

853
00:42:41,236 --> 00:42:45,796
Speaker 3: there is like a sophistication, an adultness of this teen

854
00:42:45,956 --> 00:42:49,556
Speaker 3: romance that you almost never get in a teen romance.

855
00:42:49,796 --> 00:42:51,436
Speaker 3: And I think that's why. Part of the reason why

856
00:42:51,436 --> 00:42:53,076
Speaker 3: I think the thirteen year olds didn't get it is

857
00:42:53,116 --> 00:42:56,716
Speaker 3: she feels this strong sense of obligation to her dad

858
00:42:56,836 --> 00:42:59,956
Speaker 3: and doesn't know how to fit Lloyd into that schema,

859
00:43:00,316 --> 00:43:03,116
Speaker 3: and therefore ends up playing around for a while with

860
00:43:03,156 --> 00:43:04,996
Speaker 3: breaking up with him in a way that doesn't make

861
00:43:05,036 --> 00:43:07,876
Speaker 3: sense for her feelings for Lloyd, but isn't crazy from

862
00:43:07,916 --> 00:43:12,356
Speaker 3: the perspective of the various emotional forces that are buffeting her.

863
00:43:13,756 --> 00:43:16,476
Speaker 2: One of the things that I flagged as being a

864
00:43:17,156 --> 00:43:20,716
Speaker 2: little bit that sort of age badly or aged strangely

865
00:43:20,756 --> 00:43:24,276
Speaker 2: about this movie is in this same category. And I'll

866
00:43:24,316 --> 00:43:26,836
Speaker 2: pose this in the form of a question, did did

867
00:43:26,836 --> 00:43:31,436
Speaker 2: some gen xers think this was a parenting manual that

868
00:43:33,356 --> 00:43:35,916
Speaker 2: the way to parent is to really push your kid

869
00:43:36,356 --> 00:43:41,156
Speaker 2: as much as possible, cut them off from socialization when

870
00:43:41,236 --> 00:43:44,356
Speaker 2: they are when they are in high school. Again, I

871
00:43:44,356 --> 00:43:49,556
Speaker 2: think this is sometimes a stereotype of Gen X contemporary

872
00:43:49,596 --> 00:43:53,276
Speaker 2: parenting rather than the reality. But I do think there

873
00:43:53,356 --> 00:43:57,556
Speaker 2: is much more pressure today to achieve, achieve, achieve for

874
00:43:57,596 --> 00:44:00,316
Speaker 2: people in high school that people like Diane Court are

875
00:44:00,996 --> 00:44:03,876
Speaker 2: very common these days. Right, you know, she was the

876
00:44:03,916 --> 00:44:06,076
Speaker 2: one person in her high school and now like this

877
00:44:06,276 --> 00:44:10,076
Speaker 2: is a thing, and so how many people saw this

878
00:44:10,116 --> 00:44:12,756
Speaker 2: movie thought like that's how I'm going to treat my

879
00:44:12,836 --> 00:44:15,156
Speaker 2: dad and tax fraud.

880
00:44:15,756 --> 00:44:18,036
Speaker 1: But I mean, apart apart from the text r No,

881
00:44:18,316 --> 00:44:20,316
Speaker 1: I mean, Paul, I think you're really oddto something, right, Like,

882
00:44:20,356 --> 00:44:22,796
Speaker 1: if we look at the current generation of teenagers, right

883
00:44:22,836 --> 00:44:24,836
Speaker 1: the thirteen year olds I were watching as with, this

884
00:44:24,996 --> 00:44:28,836
Speaker 1: is the loneliest generation in history since we've been measuring

885
00:44:28,876 --> 00:44:33,556
Speaker 1: loneliness and teenagers. They're also the most academically busy, like

886
00:44:33,596 --> 00:44:35,796
Speaker 1: the most academically stribe. If we just like look at

887
00:44:35,916 --> 00:44:38,316
Speaker 1: just sheer amounts of homework, those things have gone up

888
00:44:38,636 --> 00:44:41,156
Speaker 1: since the making of this film. And beyond that, we

889
00:44:41,196 --> 00:44:43,676
Speaker 1: see like the seeds of the fact that they're kind

890
00:44:43,716 --> 00:44:46,036
Speaker 1: of like Diane, like shifting away from these sort of

891
00:44:46,076 --> 00:44:49,396
Speaker 1: dating relationships, right Like the fact that, like, modern teenagers

892
00:44:49,396 --> 00:44:52,516
Speaker 1: are having less sex than teenagers have ever had back

893
00:44:52,556 --> 00:44:54,796
Speaker 1: in the day, and so you might be kind of

894
00:44:54,796 --> 00:44:57,236
Speaker 1: onto something where the sort of Diane Court school of

895
00:44:57,436 --> 00:45:00,676
Speaker 1: child bearing was like kind of coming up a little bit.

896
00:45:00,996 --> 00:45:02,276
Speaker 2: Yeah.

897
00:45:02,356 --> 00:45:02,676
Speaker 3: Yeah.

898
00:45:02,796 --> 00:45:04,916
Speaker 1: Another thing that the kiddo has picked up on is that,

899
00:45:05,316 --> 00:45:07,276
Speaker 1: you know, Lloyd does this lovely thing where he's the

900
00:45:07,356 --> 00:45:09,956
Speaker 1: key master and he's taken everyone's keys, but then when

901
00:45:09,996 --> 00:45:12,276
Speaker 1: his job is over, he's like, hand me a beer,

902
00:45:12,316 --> 00:45:15,796
Speaker 1: and he then goat proceeds to drive home away to beer.

903
00:45:15,836 --> 00:45:18,236
Speaker 1: And even the thirteen year olds were like, wait a minute,

904
00:45:18,276 --> 00:45:20,396
Speaker 1: Like I thought we were drinking and driving.

905
00:45:21,436 --> 00:45:26,836
Speaker 2: Good point. Yeah, that's great relationship quotes. We've hit a

906
00:45:26,956 --> 00:45:30,716
Speaker 2: few good ones already. But do either of you have

907
00:45:30,756 --> 00:45:34,116
Speaker 2: any other quotes that we should clip in here and

908
00:45:34,196 --> 00:45:34,796
Speaker 2: talk about.

909
00:45:35,076 --> 00:45:36,836
Speaker 1: So mine is kind of a funny one, and it

910
00:45:36,836 --> 00:45:39,996
Speaker 1: gets back to this idea that like, these are teenagers

911
00:45:39,996 --> 00:45:41,756
Speaker 1: who are acting in the film that were trying to

912
00:45:41,796 --> 00:45:44,436
Speaker 1: identify with, but the film is actually written by adults,

913
00:45:44,436 --> 00:45:46,276
Speaker 1: and in a few points, I think you hear the

914
00:45:46,316 --> 00:45:49,796
Speaker 1: adult voice kicking. And so this was a quote that

915
00:45:49,876 --> 00:45:54,556
Speaker 1: happened just after Lloyd has sex with Diane and he's

916
00:45:54,596 --> 00:45:57,316
Speaker 1: meeting up with his friends and they're trying to suss out, Oh,

917
00:45:57,316 --> 00:45:58,756
Speaker 1: did you have sex or did you have sex?

918
00:45:59,236 --> 00:46:01,716
Speaker 3: Look at his face, he did the deed. You're an

919
00:46:01,716 --> 00:46:04,716
Speaker 3: inflation lady should go on the seven hundred club or

920
00:46:04,756 --> 00:46:08,956
Speaker 3: some saying, all right, calmed downright, calm down, nothing's different, Lloyd.

921
00:46:09,596 --> 00:46:14,276
Speaker 4: Listen to me. Everything has changed. You've had sex. No

922
00:46:14,396 --> 00:46:16,916
Speaker 4: matter what you might think, nothing will ever be the

923
00:46:16,996 --> 00:46:19,916
Speaker 4: same between you two. You might be sixty, you might

924
00:46:19,956 --> 00:46:21,916
Speaker 4: be walking down the street and you'll talk to her

925
00:46:21,956 --> 00:46:24,956
Speaker 4: about something whatever, But what you'll really be thinking is

926
00:46:25,396 --> 00:46:26,556
Speaker 4: we had sex.

927
00:46:27,316 --> 00:46:31,436
Speaker 1: And that struck me as like interestingly, like it struck

928
00:46:31,516 --> 00:46:33,476
Speaker 1: me as the kind of case that you couldn't know

929
00:46:33,676 --> 00:46:36,836
Speaker 1: that unless you were, like, you know, in your forties

930
00:46:36,956 --> 00:46:40,476
Speaker 1: or fifties, like like, I just didn't think any nineteen

931
00:46:40,556 --> 00:46:41,676
Speaker 1: year old will be thinking back.

932
00:46:41,756 --> 00:46:42,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that.

933
00:46:42,676 --> 00:46:42,876
Speaker 1: Yeah.

934
00:46:42,996 --> 00:46:46,916
Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes Corey in particular has a wisdom beyond her years,

935
00:46:47,116 --> 00:46:47,916
Speaker 2: beyond her years.

936
00:46:48,276 --> 00:46:50,596
Speaker 3: There was somewhere between the fifty third and the fifty

937
00:46:50,676 --> 00:46:53,516
Speaker 3: fourth songs she wrote for Joe that she just developed

938
00:46:53,556 --> 00:46:54,156
Speaker 3: life's wisdom.

939
00:46:54,156 --> 00:46:57,236
Speaker 2: I think I wonder if that tape is like on

940
00:46:57,356 --> 00:47:00,036
Speaker 2: the internet somewhere else if we can buy like if

941
00:47:00,116 --> 00:47:03,436
Speaker 2: somebody has like cobbled together all of those clips and

942
00:47:03,756 --> 00:47:05,516
Speaker 2: somehow created something.

943
00:47:05,636 --> 00:47:08,196
Speaker 1: And then we can ultimately play on a sharp GF.

944
00:47:08,436 --> 00:47:13,516
Speaker 2: So I love it all right? Any other any other quotes?

945
00:47:14,156 --> 00:47:16,716
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one other thing I love. He left those

946
00:47:16,796 --> 00:47:19,916
Speaker 3: seven voicemails, and then on the eighth and final voicemail,

947
00:47:19,956 --> 00:47:23,356
Speaker 3: he says, I've been thinking maybe I didn't know you,

948
00:47:23,436 --> 00:47:25,756
Speaker 3: maybe your mirage. Maybe the world is a blur of

949
00:47:25,796 --> 00:47:27,956
Speaker 3: food and sex and spectacle and everyone was just hurtling

950
00:47:27,996 --> 00:47:29,876
Speaker 3: towards the Kropos. So which case is not your fault?

951
00:47:29,916 --> 00:47:31,676
Speaker 3: You know, maybe it's a good side all this.

952
00:47:31,796 --> 00:47:32,116
Speaker 4: I don't know.

953
00:47:32,196 --> 00:47:34,636
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this thing. The reason I love

954
00:47:34,716 --> 00:47:37,196
Speaker 3: that is because it ties back a little bit to

955
00:47:37,276 --> 00:47:41,636
Speaker 3: this like truth cartographers. He's like really thrown at the

956
00:47:41,756 --> 00:47:44,916
Speaker 3: dissolution of the relationship, and he doesn't really make he's

957
00:47:44,956 --> 00:47:46,876
Speaker 3: not really able to make sense of things. Maybe you

958
00:47:46,956 --> 00:47:49,076
Speaker 3: were just a mirage. It's all sort of confusing. And

959
00:47:49,436 --> 00:47:51,796
Speaker 3: this is a pretty common reaction in the wake of

960
00:47:51,876 --> 00:47:54,556
Speaker 3: a breakup, is we lose a little bit of our

961
00:47:54,596 --> 00:47:56,756
Speaker 3: sense of order, our sense of structure, our sense of

962
00:47:56,796 --> 00:48:00,076
Speaker 3: who we are. And I think this quote, this last

963
00:48:00,596 --> 00:48:02,996
Speaker 3: eighth and final voicemail he leaves for her, I think

964
00:48:03,076 --> 00:48:05,876
Speaker 3: really captures the essence of this idea that it can

965
00:48:05,956 --> 00:48:10,996
Speaker 3: be bewildering, it can be confusing to end a meaningful relationship,

966
00:48:11,036 --> 00:48:12,556
Speaker 3: and he's just struggling to make sense of it.

967
00:48:13,356 --> 00:48:13,556
Speaker 1: Yeah.

968
00:48:13,636 --> 00:48:15,796
Speaker 2: That is one of the hardest things that people have

969
00:48:15,916 --> 00:48:17,796
Speaker 2: to do to get over a breakup is to make

970
00:48:17,916 --> 00:48:21,516
Speaker 2: sense of it and develop that narrative. So what do

971
00:48:21,596 --> 00:48:26,036
Speaker 2: we wish we knew about close relationships or any other

972
00:48:26,116 --> 00:48:29,916
Speaker 2: psychological phenomenon, you know, questions that this movie poses that

973
00:48:29,996 --> 00:48:31,156
Speaker 2: we don't have great answers to.

974
00:48:31,276 --> 00:48:35,876
Speaker 3: Yet, How should we act when we are suspicious of

975
00:48:35,956 --> 00:48:38,836
Speaker 3: a loved one? So at first, Diana is convinced that

976
00:48:38,916 --> 00:48:41,756
Speaker 3: there's no way her father did anything wrong. She goes

977
00:48:41,836 --> 00:48:43,876
Speaker 3: to the irs and says, stop it, you've got the

978
00:48:43,916 --> 00:48:47,036
Speaker 3: wrong guy, and he's like, no, we don't. He's guilty

979
00:48:47,116 --> 00:48:50,436
Speaker 3: as sin, and then gives her enough reason to believe like,

980
00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:52,876
Speaker 3: uh oh, maybe he did this. So what does she do?

981
00:48:53,636 --> 00:48:57,756
Speaker 3: She snoops, she looks through his drawers. She eventually unlocks

982
00:48:57,796 --> 00:49:00,996
Speaker 3: something private and then eventually discovers uh, oh, there's a

983
00:49:01,036 --> 00:49:03,316
Speaker 3: bunch of like one hundred dollars bills here that shouldn't

984
00:49:03,316 --> 00:49:06,796
Speaker 3: be here. And I just don't have a sense of

985
00:49:07,796 --> 00:49:10,996
Speaker 3: how people generally when they become a little suspicious. I

986
00:49:11,036 --> 00:49:13,436
Speaker 3: don't know, is he getting text messages from that girl?

987
00:49:13,556 --> 00:49:17,676
Speaker 3: I sort of think maybe is that an excuse? Is

988
00:49:17,756 --> 00:49:20,076
Speaker 3: that something that people use to say, Okay, well I'm

989
00:49:20,116 --> 00:49:22,356
Speaker 3: going to break into his email or his texts and

990
00:49:22,436 --> 00:49:24,756
Speaker 3: try to find out what's going on. When do people

991
00:49:25,076 --> 00:49:27,556
Speaker 3: do that? When do they start acting like private detectives?

992
00:49:27,756 --> 00:49:30,316
Speaker 3: Under what circumstances is it ethical to do those things?

993
00:49:30,436 --> 00:49:32,236
Speaker 3: I just don't think we know that much about that.

994
00:49:32,676 --> 00:49:33,996
Speaker 1: Well, this is as well where I, at least in

995
00:49:34,076 --> 00:49:36,956
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, I feel like people crowdsource this a lot.

996
00:49:37,116 --> 00:49:38,836
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you all are fans of am

997
00:49:38,876 --> 00:49:41,916
Speaker 1: I overreacting on Reddit? Good, but I think this would

998
00:49:41,956 --> 00:49:43,996
Speaker 1: be like a classic am I overreacting on Reddit where

999
00:49:43,996 --> 00:49:46,676
Speaker 1: it's like my dad, you know, the IRIS is investigating

1000
00:49:46,676 --> 00:49:49,356
Speaker 1: my dad or you know, nursing home text fraud and

1001
00:49:49,756 --> 00:49:53,076
Speaker 1: you know I saw some money like in his private chamber.

1002
00:49:53,516 --> 00:49:56,676
Speaker 1: Am I erecting? But I think that is something we

1003
00:49:56,796 --> 00:49:59,076
Speaker 1: can do, right, I mean, I think not necessarily on

1004
00:49:59,196 --> 00:50:01,036
Speaker 1: Reddit but we can go to our close others and

1005
00:50:01,156 --> 00:50:04,236
Speaker 1: ask the question, like can you give me some advice here?

1006
00:50:04,436 --> 00:50:06,556
Speaker 1: Like does this make sense? And again this gets back

1007
00:50:06,596 --> 00:50:08,276
Speaker 1: to the kind of thing you were talking about earlier, Eli,

1008
00:50:08,396 --> 00:50:10,716
Speaker 1: right where we're looking for truth seeking. Right, we're trying

1009
00:50:10,756 --> 00:50:12,716
Speaker 1: to figure out is my like if you have that

1010
00:50:12,876 --> 00:50:15,516
Speaker 1: reality just privately? It's hard to kind of know, but

1011
00:50:15,716 --> 00:50:18,476
Speaker 1: we're getting some other folks's opinions on things. All of

1012
00:50:18,516 --> 00:50:21,076
Speaker 1: a sudden we can know, am I just being paranoid?

1013
00:50:21,196 --> 00:50:23,236
Speaker 1: Or is this kind of a real situation that we

1014
00:50:23,356 --> 00:50:24,396
Speaker 1: need to pay attention to?

1015
00:50:24,476 --> 00:50:27,076
Speaker 2: And more to Youtao, I feel like one thing we

1016
00:50:27,156 --> 00:50:30,276
Speaker 2: talk about a lot on this show is the like

1017
00:50:30,396 --> 00:50:33,036
Speaker 2: motivated reasoning and close relationships, and we have all these

1018
00:50:33,116 --> 00:50:36,076
Speaker 2: biases about our close others. We just want to believe

1019
00:50:36,116 --> 00:50:39,316
Speaker 2: what we want to believe, and it is also important

1020
00:50:39,356 --> 00:50:42,836
Speaker 2: to realize that sometimes those beliefs cannot be sustained in

1021
00:50:42,996 --> 00:50:46,076
Speaker 2: light of reality. Reality is still a thing and at

1022
00:50:46,116 --> 00:50:48,516
Speaker 2: some point you have to confront that. And so going

1023
00:50:48,556 --> 00:50:50,716
Speaker 2: to other relationships, I mean that kind of social proof

1024
00:50:50,796 --> 00:50:54,276
Speaker 2: is a good way to do that. For me. The

1025
00:50:54,476 --> 00:50:58,436
Speaker 2: thing that this movie pointed out that I loved but

1026
00:50:58,596 --> 00:51:02,276
Speaker 2: also thought like, Oh, I wish we studied attraction like

1027
00:51:02,396 --> 00:51:05,916
Speaker 2: this more. And it is the nature of their first date,

1028
00:51:06,476 --> 00:51:08,236
Speaker 2: right that they go to this I'm not talking about that.

1029
00:51:08,316 --> 00:51:10,916
Speaker 2: Whatever the thing was them, all of those who count

1030
00:51:11,236 --> 00:51:14,076
Speaker 2: right that doesn't go when they go to the party

1031
00:51:14,756 --> 00:51:18,556
Speaker 2: and they're like kind of interacting, but they're also watching

1032
00:51:18,676 --> 00:51:23,436
Speaker 2: each other interact with other people, right that. This is

1033
00:51:23,676 --> 00:51:27,276
Speaker 2: in many ways what dating kind of used to be.

1034
00:51:28,036 --> 00:51:31,316
Speaker 2: It was about social networks. You're getting to know each other,

1035
00:51:31,596 --> 00:51:34,276
Speaker 2: but other people are floating in and out of the

1036
00:51:34,396 --> 00:51:37,636
Speaker 2: conversations at the same time. And this is how we

1037
00:51:37,796 --> 00:51:41,396
Speaker 2: see if there's a connection with somebody else. And I

1038
00:51:41,676 --> 00:51:45,716
Speaker 2: wonder if we've really lost something as we transition to

1039
00:51:45,916 --> 00:51:48,636
Speaker 2: the resume version of dating, where you sit down across

1040
00:51:48,636 --> 00:51:50,556
Speaker 2: from somebody and I talk and you talk, and I

1041
00:51:50,676 --> 00:51:53,476
Speaker 2: talk and you talk and we exchange statistics and we

1042
00:51:53,796 --> 00:51:56,316
Speaker 2: hope that something clicks. And I think we really miss

1043
00:51:56,396 --> 00:51:59,356
Speaker 2: something by not having these kinds of dates. There was

1044
00:51:59,396 --> 00:52:01,796
Speaker 2: something really special about this idea that they are on

1045
00:52:01,916 --> 00:52:04,716
Speaker 2: a date and they're only interacting for a fraction of

1046
00:52:04,796 --> 00:52:07,956
Speaker 2: the time. Like, what a cool idea this is, And

1047
00:52:08,236 --> 00:52:11,436
Speaker 2: you know, I I wish this wasn't so much a

1048
00:52:11,596 --> 00:52:12,996
Speaker 2: bygone era totally.

1049
00:52:13,196 --> 00:52:15,236
Speaker 1: Okay, here's one that I got interested in. But it

1050
00:52:15,356 --> 00:52:19,756
Speaker 1: might just be how the Lloyd Dobbler relationship situation maps

1051
00:52:19,796 --> 00:52:21,996
Speaker 1: on to my own love life right now.

1052
00:52:22,076 --> 00:52:22,516
Speaker 2: Oh it's good.

1053
00:52:22,636 --> 00:52:25,796
Speaker 1: And so there's this open question about whether or not

1054
00:52:26,036 --> 00:52:29,276
Speaker 1: Lloyd and Diane got together at the right time. Right.

1055
00:52:29,636 --> 00:52:32,396
Speaker 1: Clearly they went to high school for three years together. Yeah,

1056
00:52:32,436 --> 00:52:33,516
Speaker 1: they had this weird three year.

1057
00:52:33,476 --> 00:52:35,316
Speaker 2: High school where they had this oh yeah, yeah.

1058
00:52:35,196 --> 00:52:37,996
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was another thing of thirteen years liked

1059
00:52:38,076 --> 00:52:39,636
Speaker 1: went to school for thirty years, was like, oh yeah,

1060
00:52:39,636 --> 00:52:42,316
Speaker 1: it's a big mind blowing for them. But clearly died

1061
00:52:42,356 --> 00:52:45,236
Speaker 1: and Lloyd overlapped for three whole years. Clearly there was

1062
00:52:45,316 --> 00:52:47,476
Speaker 1: lots of parties who could have invited her to it's

1063
00:52:47,676 --> 00:52:50,436
Speaker 1: after graduation. She's only got like a couple of weeks

1064
00:52:50,516 --> 00:52:54,156
Speaker 1: left before she skidaddles off to the UK for her fellowship.

1065
00:52:54,956 --> 00:52:56,716
Speaker 1: Was that the right time to kind of get together?

1066
00:52:56,876 --> 00:52:57,036
Speaker 3: You know?

1067
00:52:57,076 --> 00:52:59,676
Speaker 1: Should he have done it sooner? Is there something special

1068
00:52:59,716 --> 00:53:03,076
Speaker 1: about a relationship that begins when it doesn't have much time?

1069
00:53:03,676 --> 00:53:05,876
Speaker 1: And the reason I like this question is that my

1070
00:53:06,156 --> 00:53:09,436
Speaker 1: husband and I got together right after I found doubt

1071
00:53:09,476 --> 00:53:11,556
Speaker 1: that I was getting a job at Yale, and I

1072
00:53:11,676 --> 00:53:13,836
Speaker 1: was about to move there in a couple of weeks time.

1073
00:53:13,956 --> 00:53:16,956
Speaker 1: We had almost exactly the sixteen weeks the diet and

1074
00:53:17,076 --> 00:53:17,676
Speaker 1: Lloyd had and.

1075
00:53:17,756 --> 00:53:19,676
Speaker 3: We found I've always wanted to be a New Haven.

1076
00:53:21,516 --> 00:53:22,836
Speaker 2: I think he super didn't think that.

1077
00:53:23,996 --> 00:53:28,436
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, yeah, he didn't think that. He didn't like that,

1078
00:53:28,556 --> 00:53:31,596
Speaker 1: but you know, I think that in some ways it was.

1079
00:53:32,516 --> 00:53:34,436
Speaker 1: In some ways at the time it felt like, oh,

1080
00:53:34,516 --> 00:53:36,596
Speaker 1: there's no pressure to this. We just kind of get

1081
00:53:36,596 --> 00:53:38,796
Speaker 1: to know each other and enjoy it, because it would

1082
00:53:38,836 --> 00:53:40,556
Speaker 1: be silly to think that the end of this has

1083
00:53:40,636 --> 00:53:43,076
Speaker 1: to result in, you know, him hopping on a plane

1084
00:53:43,076 --> 00:53:45,276
Speaker 1: to New Haven until you know the turbulence caused a

1085
00:53:45,356 --> 00:53:47,356
Speaker 1: ding or I guess a car version of that or whatever.

1086
00:53:48,036 --> 00:53:50,356
Speaker 1: And I've wondered, like, is there data on that. Was

1087
00:53:50,396 --> 00:53:51,756
Speaker 1: that a good thing? It was a good thing for me.

1088
00:53:51,876 --> 00:53:53,356
Speaker 1: It seems like it was a good thing for Lloyd

1089
00:53:53,396 --> 00:53:54,996
Speaker 1: and Diana, though as we've talked about, we don't know

1090
00:53:55,036 --> 00:53:59,036
Speaker 1: what happened afterwards. Is the preciousness of the little time

1091
00:53:59,516 --> 00:54:01,316
Speaker 1: and the fact that we can't think of this as

1092
00:54:01,316 --> 00:54:04,116
Speaker 1: a long term thing as there's some other constraint. Does

1093
00:54:04,196 --> 00:54:05,796
Speaker 1: that help things or hurt things.

1094
00:54:06,676 --> 00:54:10,796
Speaker 2: It's fascinating. You know, we don't study this all that well.

1095
00:54:10,956 --> 00:54:15,956
Speaker 2: You're right, this is phenomenon of on again, off again relationships,

1096
00:54:16,796 --> 00:54:20,836
Speaker 2: and the general idea is that some relationships have more

1097
00:54:20,956 --> 00:54:25,196
Speaker 2: of this turbulence, this turnover than other relationships do, and

1098
00:54:25,316 --> 00:54:27,636
Speaker 2: they generally tend to have a number of other features

1099
00:54:27,716 --> 00:54:32,396
Speaker 2: that are less than optimal. But I don't think there's

1100
00:54:32,476 --> 00:54:38,836
Speaker 2: good work looking at the situational forces that might set

1101
00:54:38,956 --> 00:54:42,276
Speaker 2: people up well when they start a relationship or set

1102
00:54:42,396 --> 00:54:45,796
Speaker 2: people up poorly. Other than some of the social network stuff,

1103
00:54:45,836 --> 00:54:48,076
Speaker 2: there really isn't that much out there. But it'd be

1104
00:54:48,156 --> 00:54:50,876
Speaker 2: really interesting to look at something as simple as how

1105
00:54:50,996 --> 00:54:53,316
Speaker 2: much time will we be in the same place and

1106
00:54:53,476 --> 00:54:54,916
Speaker 2: to see what kind of effect that has.

1107
00:54:55,596 --> 00:54:57,636
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there's not much in terms of the

1108
00:54:57,916 --> 00:55:00,476
Speaker 3: situations that set you up well. But it occurs to

1109
00:55:00,556 --> 00:55:03,076
Speaker 3: me there's another way of thinking about this question, which is,

1110
00:55:03,596 --> 00:55:08,676
Speaker 3: are there circumstances that will supercharge the pace of a

1111
00:55:08,796 --> 00:55:12,316
Speaker 3: romantic connection regardless of the long term future. And Paul,

1112
00:55:12,356 --> 00:55:15,956
Speaker 3: you and I talk sometimes about our errand's fast friends procedure. Yeah,

1113
00:55:16,076 --> 00:55:19,356
Speaker 3: you're asking crazy intimate questions, or you look into each

1114
00:55:19,356 --> 00:55:22,516
Speaker 3: other's eyes, for three consecutive minutes. Right, there's there's these procedures.

1115
00:55:22,676 --> 00:55:25,676
Speaker 3: My guess, Lorie, is that the what I think of

1116
00:55:25,836 --> 00:55:28,036
Speaker 3: is like the summer camp romance thing, this idea that

1117
00:55:28,436 --> 00:55:31,836
Speaker 3: there's an end date. My guess is that that is

1118
00:55:31,916 --> 00:55:35,796
Speaker 3: in some ways a disinhibitor, and I wish the field

1119
00:55:35,876 --> 00:55:37,956
Speaker 3: knew more. My guess is that there is probably like

1120
00:55:38,036 --> 00:55:41,876
Speaker 3: a hypology or a category of disinhibitors, things that make

1121
00:55:41,996 --> 00:55:46,036
Speaker 3: us willing to get vulnerable and intimate quickly. And so yes,

1122
00:55:46,196 --> 00:55:48,436
Speaker 3: my guess is that is that knowing that we've only

1123
00:55:48,476 --> 00:55:50,836
Speaker 3: got X number of weeks or X numbers of months

1124
00:55:50,916 --> 00:55:54,516
Speaker 3: will do that. And then the interesting question is, okay, well,

1125
00:55:54,636 --> 00:55:58,116
Speaker 3: if you have supercharged the intimacy, under what circumstances does

1126
00:55:58,156 --> 00:56:02,076
Speaker 3: that intimacy last for a long time, possibly even forever?

1127
00:56:02,196 --> 00:56:04,036
Speaker 3: And that is something that I'm I'm pretty sure we

1128
00:56:04,156 --> 00:56:04,996
Speaker 3: know nothing about.

1129
00:56:05,316 --> 00:56:08,436
Speaker 2: That's really cool. So it's like, well, this relationship has

1130
00:56:08,436 --> 00:56:11,116
Speaker 2: a certain amount of intimacy potential. And if you give us,

1131
00:56:11,436 --> 00:56:14,156
Speaker 2: you know, four days, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna

1132
00:56:14,236 --> 00:56:16,956
Speaker 2: get it off, we're gonna fast it all. Yeah, that's

1133
00:56:16,996 --> 00:56:17,436
Speaker 2: really cool.

1134
00:56:17,916 --> 00:56:19,876
Speaker 1: And you all have talked about cases like this, like

1135
00:56:20,036 --> 00:56:23,196
Speaker 1: before Sunrise and before Sunset, these other movies where you

1136
00:56:23,276 --> 00:56:27,756
Speaker 1: have these kind of short periods of supercharging relationships. I wonder,

1137
00:56:27,796 --> 00:56:28,876
Speaker 1: if these factors.

1138
00:56:28,556 --> 00:56:32,276
Speaker 2: Play right, that the ticking clock could in fact be

1139
00:56:32,436 --> 00:56:35,836
Speaker 2: an accelerant in some cases. And I think we see

1140
00:56:35,876 --> 00:56:38,076
Speaker 2: it in those movies, And yeah, you're right, I think

1141
00:56:38,116 --> 00:56:40,116
Speaker 2: we see it here too in some ways, in a

1142
00:56:40,196 --> 00:56:43,716
Speaker 2: more realistic way, sixteen weeks would be a more common

1143
00:56:44,516 --> 00:56:47,756
Speaker 2: hypercharged romance than those movies where it's happening in a

1144
00:56:47,756 --> 00:56:52,156
Speaker 2: matter of hours. Yeah. So we rate movies on this

1145
00:56:52,356 --> 00:56:56,996
Speaker 2: podcast from one to five stars. So let's all go

1146
00:56:57,236 --> 00:57:00,996
Speaker 2: through and talk about how many stars we give this movie. Laurie,

1147
00:57:01,116 --> 00:57:03,036
Speaker 2: I will throw to you first. How many stars do

1148
00:57:03,116 --> 00:57:03,476
Speaker 2: you give?

1149
00:57:03,796 --> 00:57:09,756
Speaker 1: Say anything, one hundred million? Stuff Like I chose this

1150
00:57:09,836 --> 00:57:14,556
Speaker 1: one because it's a favorite Lloyd Dobbler swoon, Swood. Wait,

1151
00:57:14,636 --> 00:57:15,436
Speaker 1: what's my top stars?

1152
00:57:15,516 --> 00:57:16,076
Speaker 2: For five?

1153
00:57:16,556 --> 00:57:16,716
Speaker 3: Five?

1154
00:57:16,836 --> 00:57:18,196
Speaker 2: You can go as I as five stars?

1155
00:57:18,916 --> 00:57:23,036
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I love this movie Lloyd Doubler's swoon.

1156
00:57:23,276 --> 00:57:24,676
Speaker 1: It's got to be five stars for me?

1157
00:57:24,836 --> 00:57:27,796
Speaker 2: Okay, and Eli, how many stars for saying it five?

1158
00:57:28,436 --> 00:57:30,676
Speaker 3: And only because I can't take all the five hundred

1159
00:57:30,716 --> 00:57:33,596
Speaker 3: million or whatever it was I. I knew that I

1160
00:57:33,796 --> 00:57:37,876
Speaker 3: liked this movie, I didn't really remember just how great

1161
00:57:37,916 --> 00:57:38,156
Speaker 3: it was.

1162
00:57:39,276 --> 00:57:41,316
Speaker 2: We're gonna make this a hat trick. Five stars for

1163
00:57:41,476 --> 00:57:44,596
Speaker 2: me as well. What a man to have as a

1164
00:57:44,756 --> 00:57:48,276
Speaker 2: role model, John Cusack, Thank you, right? I mean, we

1165
00:57:48,356 --> 00:57:52,196
Speaker 2: talk about the bad messages from eighties movies, and this

1166
00:57:52,596 --> 00:57:55,316
Speaker 2: was the antidote came along in nineteen eighty nine and

1167
00:57:55,716 --> 00:57:58,996
Speaker 2: cleaned the slate. We also rate movies on Russbolts now.

1168
00:57:59,036 --> 00:58:01,596
Speaker 2: The russ Bold is named after Eli's advisor, the late

1169
00:58:01,676 --> 00:58:05,436
Speaker 2: great Carol Rusbold, pioneer of close relationships research, with five

1170
00:58:05,516 --> 00:58:08,956
Speaker 2: stars indicating a near perfect depiction of the nature of

1171
00:58:09,196 --> 00:58:12,796
Speaker 2: close relationships. I'll go first on this one. This movie

1172
00:58:12,876 --> 00:58:15,436
Speaker 2: gets four rouss bolts from me. I think it got

1173
00:58:15,516 --> 00:58:18,156
Speaker 2: a lot of things right, a lot of the things

1174
00:58:18,196 --> 00:58:21,356
Speaker 2: that we covered here today. A few things that I

1175
00:58:21,596 --> 00:58:24,916
Speaker 2: thought were the reason it doesn't go all the way

1176
00:58:24,956 --> 00:58:27,836
Speaker 2: to five russ bolts for me, is really just that

1177
00:58:27,996 --> 00:58:32,076
Speaker 2: stalking component. I think it somehow lodged in our memories

1178
00:58:32,556 --> 00:58:36,356
Speaker 2: as endorsing or maybe excusing some things that we'd call

1179
00:58:36,396 --> 00:58:39,876
Speaker 2: stocking today. But overall, four ross bolts from me, Eli,

1180
00:58:39,996 --> 00:58:40,476
Speaker 2: What about you?

1181
00:58:41,236 --> 00:58:45,116
Speaker 3: I have this at five Roussbolts too. I mean I

1182
00:58:45,956 --> 00:58:48,596
Speaker 3: had a list of I think eleven different things that

1183
00:58:48,756 --> 00:58:50,716
Speaker 3: I thought the movie got right. We talked about some

1184
00:58:50,876 --> 00:58:54,396
Speaker 3: of the bigger ones, but I was floored by the

1185
00:58:54,636 --> 00:58:57,876
Speaker 3: level of insight that Cameron Crow had when writing this,

1186
00:58:58,076 --> 00:59:01,676
Speaker 3: and also by the delivery from these particular actors. I

1187
00:59:01,716 --> 00:59:04,916
Speaker 3: thought it was just great and illustrated exactly. I think

1188
00:59:04,996 --> 00:59:06,476
Speaker 3: a lot of how relationships work.

1189
00:59:06,636 --> 00:59:08,916
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Laurie, what about you? What do you think?

1190
00:59:09,276 --> 00:59:11,996
Speaker 1: Yeah, I gotta go with like four and a half bustle.

1191
00:59:12,116 --> 00:59:15,196
Speaker 1: It's like, Paul, I share your I share your intuition

1192
00:59:15,316 --> 00:59:17,916
Speaker 1: that the stocking stuff just had me a little bit

1193
00:59:17,956 --> 00:59:20,156
Speaker 1: more skewed out when I rewatched it. That was probably

1194
00:59:20,236 --> 00:59:22,396
Speaker 1: because one of the thirteen year olds I watched with

1195
00:59:22,556 --> 00:59:24,876
Speaker 1: the boy, Dave max uh just at the end of

1196
00:59:24,916 --> 00:59:27,436
Speaker 1: the film, took his iPhone on speaker phone and played

1197
00:59:27,476 --> 00:59:30,516
Speaker 1: Peter Gabriel's in your Eyes like standing there looking for Lord,

1198
00:59:30,556 --> 00:59:33,756
Speaker 1: and I was like, no, that wasn't it was.

1199
00:59:33,876 --> 00:59:35,836
Speaker 2: It was a desperate, desperate moment.

1200
00:59:36,996 --> 00:59:39,516
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna knock it down point five. But yeah,

1201
00:59:39,636 --> 00:59:41,716
Speaker 1: I mean, I share Eli's intuition too, that like this

1202
00:59:41,796 --> 00:59:43,996
Speaker 1: movie that a whole lot of stuff right for the eighties.

1203
00:59:44,556 --> 00:59:46,916
Speaker 2: It really did well. This is all the time we

1204
00:59:47,076 --> 00:59:50,236
Speaker 2: have for today. This has been the Love Actually Podcast

1205
00:59:50,356 --> 00:59:54,036
Speaker 2: and we have been delighted to have as our special

1206
00:59:54,116 --> 00:59:59,076
Speaker 2: guest doctor Lorie Sandris, host of this Happiness Lab podcast. So, Laurie,

1207
00:59:59,196 --> 01:00:00,996
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us today.

1208
01:00:01,476 --> 01:00:03,796
Speaker 1: Anytime, I'm ready to come back.

1209
01:00:03,876 --> 01:00:05,836
Speaker 2: Whenever you need, we are likely to take it.

1210
01:00:06,076 --> 01:00:08,436
Speaker 1: Whenever you need an expert on bad eighties movies, I

1211
01:00:08,556 --> 01:00:08,876
Speaker 1: am here.

1212
01:00:09,156 --> 01:00:11,636
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's do it. Were good ones for

1213
01:00:11,796 --> 01:00:14,236
Speaker 2: that matter. All right, Well, that is all we have

1214
01:00:14,356 --> 01:00:16,556
Speaker 2: for you today and I look forward to doing this

1215
01:00:16,676 --> 01:00:18,636
Speaker 2: with both of you at some time in the future.

1216
01:00:21,876 --> 01:00:24,636
Speaker 3: The Love Factually podcast is produced and edited by Paul

1217
01:00:24,716 --> 01:00:28,276
Speaker 3: Eustwick and Eli Finkel, featuring music from Andrew frakerin Size