Speaker 1: And everyone. It's me James today and I'm talking to
Speaker 1: Dermot Cosgrove about Wagner Wagner, the the Russian Mercenary Group
Speaker 1: and their actions in Africa. This is something that I've
Speaker 1: kind of tried to pitch for several years with not
Speaker 1: much success in the United States media, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: lots of other people have two by no means unique
Speaker 1: in that. And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media
Speaker 1: has become something of an expert in their actions when
Speaker 1: things started happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted
Speaker 1: to do here was kind of paint a picture of
Speaker 1: how they have a long record of human rights abuse,
Speaker 1: and Dermot to more expert in Africa, so that's what
Speaker 1: we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course, and
Speaker 1: I just wanted to give some more information. So we
Speaker 1: recorded this on last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first
Speaker 1: of August, and we talked a little bit about the
Speaker 1: Coup Nigier, which has continued and since we recorded. Ive
Speaker 1: Geenny Pregaorsian, who of course is the head of Wagner,
Speaker 1: the founder of Wagner, that oligarch is in charge of
Speaker 1: that private military contracting group made a statements sort of
Speaker 1: not exactly saying like oh, yeah, we did this coup,
Speaker 1: but more like saying, oh cool, I see you've had
Speaker 1: a coup. What you could use is a group of
Speaker 1: mercenary Russians who are prepared to do incredible and horrific
Speaker 1: violence on your behalf and let us know. We'll roll up. Also,
Speaker 1: since then, Ekowas, which is the Economic Community of West
Speaker 1: African State, it's a West African block there has threatened
Speaker 1: intervention in Nize if they don't sort of return to
Speaker 1: a democratic process. And then Mali andned Bookina Faso to
Speaker 1: other countries that are run by military government's military more
Speaker 1: or less hunters have threatened have said they'll stand with Nize,
Speaker 1: stand with the Nize coup. So it threatens to destabilize
Speaker 1: again the whole region. Right, You'll see lots of misinformation
Speaker 1: about this on Twitter. I've seen a ton of stuff
Speaker 1: from like just tanky accounts who don't fully have a
Speaker 1: grasp on what's happening in this part of the world.
Speaker 1: And I think it's quite dismissive to just use Africa
Speaker 1: to further your whatever your political agenda is, rather than
Speaker 1: treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living
Speaker 1: in these countries right es between nich Share, where people
Speaker 1: are already often struggling to get by, really struggling to
Speaker 1: make endst meat like sanctions on this country will hurt them.
Speaker 1: Tanctions on this country will hurt the poorest people in
Speaker 1: this country. A military dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality
Speaker 1: of life for people, and I would like to see
Speaker 1: people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument
Speaker 1: about decononization, like it's That's not what's happening here. What's
Speaker 1: happening is the powerful people have wanted more power, and
Speaker 1: they've taken that at the expense of the quality of
Speaker 1: life and often the lives of other people. Obviously, with
Speaker 1: Mali and Bikina Faso saying that they would like support
Speaker 1: ni Share, those are both governments that struggle to support
Speaker 1: themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies,
Speaker 1: and like our movement, so you know, no, hugely I
Speaker 1: guess serious threat, but still very destabilizing and again like
Speaker 1: this will have negative impacts for everyone living there, which
Speaker 1: is the thing I'd like to focus on. So we're
Speaker 1: going to start here with introducing himself and then we'll
Speaker 1: go from there.
Speaker 2: My name is Jermatt Cosgrove. I'm a French from Legion veteran.
Speaker 2: I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East
Speaker 2: and a little bit of South Asia as a security
Speaker 2: consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies,
Speaker 2: infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for
Speaker 1: not quite as long. But one of the things that
Speaker 1: I remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise
Speaker 1: of this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It
Speaker 1: was just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally,
Speaker 1: stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I
Speaker 1: know that you were obviously on the ground looking at this,
Speaker 1: So can you maybe just start with when you sort
Speaker 1: of first became aware of them and what you were seeing.
Speaker 2: Well, I first became aware of them with their activities
Speaker 2: in the Central African Republic when the when the Mayhem
Speaker 2: broke up there a few years ago and the EU
Speaker 2: started sending in troops. There's quite a lot of heavy fighting.
Speaker 2: Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still
Speaker 2: quite a lot of fighting going on. Next thing, these
Speaker 2: Russians shot up and it was just a little bit
Speaker 2: kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them in operating in Syria,
Speaker 2: but you know, next thing, they're in, of all places,
Speaker 2: the Central African Republic, which is a it's high is
Speaker 2: you know, a little bit of a backwater in the
Speaker 2: middle of Africa. It's it's quashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi,
Speaker 2: the Congo, places like that, and it's historically it's it's been.
Speaker 3: There's always been a French French presence.
Speaker 2: There, but it's always been a place where there's been
Speaker 2: quite a bit of conflict around it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of different people. It's not
Speaker 1: an identity that like fits with with identities on the
Speaker 1: ground and necessarily so, yeah, what was their role there?
Speaker 1: What were they they doing as like a mercenary or
Speaker 1: private military contracting group.
Speaker 2: Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows.
Speaker 2: They were they had come in. Apparently they were supposedly
Speaker 2: there to train the governments, the Republican Guard of the
Speaker 2: of the presidential Guard. But they were also there was
Speaker 2: also words starting to leak out where they were involved
Speaker 2: in the Diamid mines and they you know, they were
Speaker 2: they were moving all over the country.
Speaker 3: They were heavily involved in militias.
Speaker 2: Then words started coming out about, you know, there was
Speaker 2: murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias
Speaker 2: and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this story broke
Speaker 2: where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd been following
Speaker 2: the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and I think
Speaker 2: the last thing that we've seen of them was that
Speaker 2: they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There
Speaker 2: was just they disappeared in the bush, and that was
Speaker 2: I suppose that was kind of the first peak that
Speaker 2: these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there had
Speaker 2: been a company in Russia years ago who were the
Speaker 2: Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically Afghan veterans.
Speaker 2: Well they operated kind of in the shady oli art
Speaker 2: section of royal security in Russia itself. But Biber Group
Speaker 2: were a completely different animal. You could tell from the
Speaker 2: right from the start these were they had a different model.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to
Speaker 1: even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives
Speaker 1: to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you,
Speaker 1: like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and
Speaker 1: lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone
Speaker 1: with a South African accent or someone who would claim
Speaker 1: to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to
Speaker 1: you and that was their industry, and they would say
Speaker 1: some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like
Speaker 1: hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking
Speaker 1: I don't want to have anything to do with this.
Speaker 1: But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by
Speaker 1: any means. But yeah, like there was that there was
Speaker 1: there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry
Speaker 1: as sort of the civil warring Columbia became that these
Speaker 1: guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to
Speaker 1: be operating more like on behalf of governments or people
Speaker 1: who would be in government, who would like to be
Speaker 1: in government. Yeah, yeah, explain how they do shit just differently.
Speaker 2: Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be
Speaker 2: familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and
Speaker 2: Executive Welcomes business model was when they operated, they went
Speaker 2: to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out
Speaker 2: your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a
Speaker 2: paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum
Speaker 2: for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage so
Speaker 2: they would clear Like Executive Wecomes cleared out some of
Speaker 2: the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think they're
Speaker 2: going rate with something like fifteen sent. Wagner groups seem
Speaker 2: to have done that, taken that model, but at the
Speaker 2: same time they've rolled in a little bit of the
Speaker 2: the Blackwater type idea in in Iraq where they were
Speaker 2: operating us an arm of of you know, Blackwater, operating
Speaker 2: as an arm US government. They were Paul Bremner's personal
Speaker 2: guard and Or Wagner seemed to have combined the two
Speaker 2: along with making Hollywood movies, because they've made they've made
Speaker 2: a couple of movies, one about Central Africa and there,
Speaker 2: you know, these rambo esque kind of movies and it's
Speaker 2: it's just it's like, what the hell is going on here?
Speaker 1: It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't
Speaker 1: divorce it from that kind of like global war on
Speaker 1: terror for one of a better phrase like era, Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of cold that developed around the U Special Forces,
Speaker 1: and they're like, it's why you can buy navy ce
Speaker 1: or soap, right, and like they've they tried to do
Speaker 1: a similar thing but with a private military contractor do
Speaker 1: you know, like the what's the composition of these most
Speaker 1: like PMCs from I guess Western nations will be ex
Speaker 1: military people. Is that the case with Wagner or where
Speaker 1: are they getting people from?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen of there.
Speaker 2: The people that brought in is that you've got a
Speaker 2: core group of Russians who come from the more elite units.
Speaker 2: Now they've been they've been really assigned to the money
Speaker 2: making contracts in Africa, so you know, they they've operated
Speaker 2: alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is that
Speaker 2: if they do take control of zones in the Marian government,
Speaker 2: disastering them a percentage of mineral mineral section and whatever
Speaker 2: in the in the region. They've there's also been talk
Speaker 2: of their blatant intimidation and protection rackets of other Western
Speaker 2: you know, Western companies working in the Sahel, so they'll
Speaker 2: rock up and kind of we'll look after you isis
Speaker 2: or a kinda won't get you if you pay as
Speaker 2: a fee. And then if the company goes well, you
Speaker 2: know that's crazy. Then you know, suddenly attacks started happening.
Speaker 2: But they seem to be a core in in Africa
Speaker 2: at least, and in Libya where they were heavily involved,
Speaker 2: there was a core group of Russians who were there,
Speaker 2: and then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized,
Speaker 2: lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya,
Speaker 2: especially during the during the fighting there when they fought
Speaker 2: for half darkly for a half there, you had you know,
Speaker 2: they brought in Syrians, they were known to have in
Speaker 2: a few other different nationalities of basically eyed. They gathered
Speaker 2: in other countries and offer jobs. Yeah, so you had
Speaker 2: I think there was about fifteen hundred two thousand Assyrians
Speaker 2: at one point.
Speaker 3: Because there's these huge numbers.
Speaker 2: Of Wagner kind of been bounded a boat on maps
Speaker 2: and stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors.
Speaker 2: Actual proper Wagner personnel wouldn't be massive numbers, but they've
Speaker 2: got you know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from the
Speaker 2: like to Syria or other places that they've been.
Speaker 1: In, right, Yeah, and they another thing I guess it
Speaker 1: was unique about them with that they were obsessed with
Speaker 1: posting on telegram like I've never seen just incredibly online
Speaker 1: to include like evidence of their war crimes, right, which
Speaker 1: I guess sometimes not at war at all, human rights
Speaker 1: abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, yeah, we should
Speaker 1: probably talk about some of those, just so people can
Speaker 1: get a sense of I think what I'd like people
Speaker 1: to take from this, just to like be explicit about it,
Speaker 1: I suppose, is that, like all this stuff was happening
Speaker 1: in Africa, there was no lack of evidence or people
Speaker 1: trying to say and it was not paid attention to
Speaker 1: by the government or media really, especially in the US,
Speaker 1: but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly got sad
Speaker 1: when it happened in Ukraine because there was happening to
Speaker 1: people who were more valued. And I think we can
Speaker 1: we'll keep sucking up like that if we keep ignoring especially.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm shocked
Speaker 2: in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions put
Speaker 2: on because there's been there's been two U of AN
Speaker 2: investigations into their activities.
Speaker 3: There was the the murders.
Speaker 2: They were complicit in the murder or actively participated in
Speaker 2: the murder of over three hundred millions in a village
Speaker 2: only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation.
Speaker 2: They've been phound to have been there been participants in it.
Speaker 2: And there's nothing. And I'm you know, you're not seeing
Speaker 2: any UN sanctions. You're not you know, you're not seeing
Speaker 2: anything going on. The world seems to be turning a
Speaker 2: blind eye to it. In Libya, I mean, the BBC
Speaker 2: had had a report, a special report where they'd actually
Speaker 2: found the iPad of one of the Wagner operators with
Speaker 2: tons and tons and tons of evidence as to what
Speaker 2: they were doing, numerous human rights abuses, and again it's
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 3: We won't really worry about it. Ops Ukraine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think
Speaker 1: if you're just a consumer of you know, the New
Speaker 1: York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from?
Speaker 1: They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe,
Speaker 1: And because our news is very focused on certain countries,
Speaker 1: and certain things. It came as a shock to people,
Speaker 1: and maybe it just explained like obviously that human rights
Speaker 1: abuse has been again in Syria. I don't think I
Speaker 1: need to detail that. There are videos that people can
Speaker 1: find on their own time if they want to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some brutal executions in such but yeah, could you like
Speaker 1: at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've where
Speaker 1: they've done that in Africa, I can think of three
Speaker 1: or four countries at the top of my head.
Speaker 2: Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the
Speaker 2: big one, which I think was three hundred civilians were murdered.
Speaker 2: They basically locked up in a village I think it
Speaker 2: was it's Moon or Mooney Monia as the name of
Speaker 2: the village in Mali. Yeah, they rocked up with the
Speaker 2: with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and
Speaker 2: murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot.
Speaker 3: And that was there was absolutely.
Speaker 2: One percent guaranteed there was Wagner operators did murder and
Speaker 2: behead local villagers. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there
Speaker 2: was there was an attack against a convoy which included
Speaker 2: Wagner personnel and their responsib was to rock into a
Speaker 2: village and execute ten people. So you know that's two cases.
Speaker 2: That again, unless you're looking, unless you're kind of aware
Speaker 2: of the certain sources that are available and looking at
Speaker 2: localized local journalists who are in these in these countries,
Speaker 2: it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to life.
Speaker 2: You know, there's Central Africa there, there's been rapes, murders,
Speaker 2: there's been mass rapes, there's you know, there's been executions, torture.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just off the charts. In Mali there
Speaker 2: is actually unknown and it's becoming famous in Mali. There
Speaker 2: is the torture house inside one of their bases in Mali,
Speaker 2: and it's becoming it's widely known as there.
Speaker 3: You know, it's more the.
Speaker 2: Multinational organizations, the U N, the you all know about
Speaker 2: its presence. They all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing.
Speaker 2: There's still nothing to mean done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's easy. Like I think that
Speaker 1: happened if you remember when they were right in France,
Speaker 1: was that people would be like, oh, well, like you know,
Speaker 1: France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously
Speaker 1: comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible,
Speaker 1: but there are other forces. Like I remember someone positing
Speaker 1: that like Mali had been liberated from French control. Uh,
Speaker 1: France left, but like these guys came like it wasn't
Speaker 1: as if you know, there was a you know, a
Speaker 1: democratic transition of power or you know, like desirable outcome.
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, well.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I mean even this morning they
Speaker 2: with the with the coup in Niger. You know, there
Speaker 2: was a put up by one of the Russian Twitter
Speaker 2: accounts claiming that the coup had been orchestrated and managed
Speaker 2: by Wagner who were liberating these from the from the coloneliness.
Speaker 2: It's just like, yeah, they actually believe there are you
Speaker 2: just do they actually believe their own stuff?
Speaker 3: It's just amazing.
Speaker 1: Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it,
Speaker 1: but it seems to be very well targeted to get
Speaker 1: people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole
Speaker 1: sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that
Speaker 1: what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denatifying. And when
Speaker 1: you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa
Speaker 1: and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there. It's
Speaker 1: very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an
Speaker 1: immedia thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think people
Speaker 1: may not be aware of. Is the one thing that
Speaker 1: has been reported a lot. It's a heavy, heavy losses
Speaker 1: have taken in Ukraine. Right often in like call the
Speaker 1: almost piano battalions that they have like that, they'll have
Speaker 1: convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain, Like
Speaker 1: I think this might lead people to believe that they're
Speaker 1: not capable of doing what they've done in Africa for
Speaker 1: a long time, But that's that's not correct, right, They're
Speaker 1: still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still doing
Speaker 1: their terrible ship in Africa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been even recently there was a lot of
Speaker 2: flights being picked up moving in and out of Africa
Speaker 2: which were Wagner associated aircraft And at first it was
Speaker 2: you know, this happened around the time they made them
Speaker 2: move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin and there
Speaker 2: was a lot of questions as to as a pullout
Speaker 2: of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia.
Speaker 2: And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in.
Speaker 2: But it looks like there's been a ramp up again
Speaker 2: in a lot of African countries.
Speaker 3: So it looks like they're upping the personnel now. Whether
Speaker 3: it's they've they've cut some.
Speaker 2: Kind of deal where they're now just gonna be a
Speaker 2: money maker, I'm not quite sure, but you know, that'll.
Speaker 3: Be remained to be seen. If they have Orchestra Niger,
Speaker 3: which is possible, then it's clearly kind of a ramp
Speaker 3: up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up
Speaker 3: local populations because they whipped up anti French sentiment in
Speaker 3: both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even though and
Speaker 3: you know the French did the French did bomb kind
Speaker 3: of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians and stuff,
Speaker 3: but they the massive reaction to two Leasons Excelence was
Speaker 3: technique Wagner at the time.
Speaker 1: It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right,
Speaker 1: It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this
Speaker 1: process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people,
Speaker 1: and often in ways that are not that distinct from
Speaker 1: the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: two hundred years ago and real like you've detailed brutal
Speaker 1: human rights abuses and it all extends all to extract
Speaker 1: wealth and resources from Africa in a very similar way
Speaker 1: to what we've seen before, but in a less formal way,
Speaker 1: I guess than you know with French and British colonialism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate
Speaker 2: im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way,
Speaker 2: and it's you know, the money is flowing into the
Speaker 2: pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia.
Speaker 3: I mean the there.
Speaker 2: Was a I was in a of a discussion this
Speaker 2: morning about about Niger and someone made a comment about
Speaker 2: there being oh there's not the if you look at them,
Speaker 2: the Sahel map and the mineral wealth that there's there's
Speaker 2: more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction further south
Speaker 2: into the Congo. But the thing is in and I've
Speaker 2: worked in Mauritania. You know, you have Mauritania which is
Speaker 2: three times the size of France with a population of
Speaker 2: four million, and yet only one percent of the country
Speaker 2: has actually been surrouted for its mineral wealth, and it
Speaker 2: already has massive gold, iron and iron ore deposits and
Speaker 2: copper deposits. If you take that, if you go over
Speaker 2: into Burkino Faso, it has huge gold gold deposits which
Speaker 2: are under explored. It's relatively the vast majority will be
Speaker 2: artisanal mining. The same with Mali. And if you go
Speaker 2: across into Nigir, you've got the huge uranium mine which
Speaker 2: is a keystone of the of the French nuclear industry Arlett,
Speaker 2: which would be worth a fortune to whoever would control
Speaker 2: the territory.
Speaker 3: So it's.
Speaker 2: It's a very colonialist I suppose manual to what the
Speaker 2: what Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's
Speaker 2: very much a corporate model as opposed to coming in
Speaker 2: and establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind
Speaker 2: of administration and governments and stuff like that too loocle go.
Speaker 2: But they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know,
Speaker 2: they will manipulate and and embed themselves with the local
Speaker 2: military who you know, if you you know you've got Mali,
Speaker 2: it's it's governed now by a military military junta Niger
Speaker 2: is likely to be the same, and you can have
Speaker 2: Brookino Faso.
Speaker 3: It's not quite far off that either.
Speaker 2: And yeah, so they're if you don't in these countries,
Speaker 2: if you won't have the backing of the military, you've
Speaker 2: got nothing.
Speaker 3: You're not going to be in power.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and then if they could throw the military
Speaker 1: and then they control it in power, right and as
Speaker 1: long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire
Speaker 1: to extract wealth, and they don't care.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and it's you know the other part of
Speaker 2: it is they're they're bringing in all the toys for
Speaker 2: the for these god for these governments as well. They're
Speaker 2: importing drawns, they're importing weaponry, helicopters, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about a little bit, because that's something
Speaker 1: they seem to have. Like Eric Prince tried to get
Speaker 1: himself a plane, right and he didn't really do very well.
Speaker 1: And that, like their access to military hardware is it's unprecedented.
Speaker 1: So like where they're able to obtain all that.
Speaker 2: Well, they're definitely they're definitely a collusion with I mean,
Speaker 2: whatever tensions there are in Ukraine between the Russian military
Speaker 2: and Wagner, there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the.
Speaker 3: Russian military when it comes to secure and hardware for Africa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they there was brand new twenty fours
Speaker 2: unloaded in Mali only last year and they met a
Speaker 2: very very big show of the French leaving and these
Speaker 2: and these helicopters arriving. So you know, there's there's been
Speaker 2: Turkish built drones are starting to are coming in left,
Speaker 2: right and center across all with the aid and.
Speaker 3: Shipment by Wagner.
Speaker 2: So they're they have incredible with Russian produced equipment. They
Speaker 2: have incredible access access to it, and it can only
Speaker 2: come from one place, it only it can only come
Speaker 2: from the military. And you know, doubt you know, we've
Speaker 2: we've seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that
Speaker 2: are fifty years old because there's nothing on their basis.
Speaker 2: Well kind of it's very clear that there was nothing
Speaker 2: on their basis because these weapons are shown are being
Speaker 2: transported for use in Africa.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right, They're still
Speaker 1: selling planes, they're still selling munitions there, and it's yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's it's almost like a I don't know that
Speaker 1: there's like a corporate and a state structure, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it seems like especially well we see that in the
Speaker 1: US too, I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires,
Speaker 1: they're parallel. One doesn't one doesn't have sort of over
Speaker 1: the other. One thing I do want to get into
Speaker 1: is this culture that exists was in Wagner that is
Speaker 1: an extreme glorification of violence, right and in a glorification
Speaker 1: of sometimes of Nazism of other sort of related kind
Speaker 1: of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies.
Speaker 1: And you can see a lot in the telegram. Can
Speaker 1: you speak atle bit to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been there's definitely been an element of these
Speaker 2: guys have been recruited from right wing in the in
Speaker 2: the Russian military, and we already know there was some
Speaker 2: of these units were heavily involved with the with the
Speaker 2: Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyway,
Speaker 2: and you know, we've seen across like it's been hugely
Speaker 2: in evidence across some of the some of the said
Speaker 2: towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner had
Speaker 2: left graffiti of you know, the sonon Rand and a
Speaker 2: lot of these other Nazi symbols, and there is this
Speaker 2: whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I
Speaker 2: mean the executions, beatings, you know, the torture of local
Speaker 2: non white people in there. You know that they're coming
Speaker 2: upcoming contact. But we've seen it in Syria, brutal executions.
Speaker 2: It's a very much a white supremacist.
Speaker 3: Far right.
Speaker 2: It's not even undertones because it's so it's so blatant,
Speaker 2: it's right in your face. I mean, they just don't
Speaker 2: hide it on their telegram channels, they don't hide it
Speaker 2: where they go. You know, we've seen military patches that
Speaker 2: they're wearing, which are you know, extreme right, graffiti they
Speaker 2: leave behind which is extreme right. You know, even I
Speaker 2: haven't seen the movies they've met, but I believe they're
Speaker 2: they're actually there's there's a lot of image there as well,
Speaker 2: which would be you're right up the street of kind
Speaker 2: of neo fascist organizations as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly seems they're pretty expective about it, and
Speaker 1: no one they don't care. I mean, yeah, for Goose,
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to be called it Wagner because it
Speaker 1: was Hitler's favorite composer.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's.
Speaker 2: Like some of the there's there's crossover between some of
Speaker 2: the other ruten far right or organizations and some of
Speaker 2: the you know, some of these units, these far right
Speaker 2: units who have been who are in in Ukraine and
Speaker 2: Wagner there is a kind of cross pollination personnel as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it certainly seems they sort of go back
Speaker 1: and forth with the military. It's not like I think
Speaker 1: people would say there's more of a distinct entity than
Speaker 1: it perhaps is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're they're not They're not a.
Speaker 2: There's guys from Wagner will show up with with other
Speaker 2: organizations from time to time, but then they seem to
Speaker 2: kind of drift back to Wagner. And seeing that especially
Speaker 2: in Ukraine in sort as well in Libya, there was
Speaker 2: there was guys that have identified who were operating in
Speaker 2: you know, with Wagner in Libya who definitely had you know,
Speaker 2: had operated with other organizations as well. You know, they've
Speaker 2: been I think there was a number of them were
Speaker 2: had been photographed that had actually been id during some
Speaker 2: of the football violence in Marcill during the European coupled
Speaker 2: a few years ago. So you know, they're they're in
Speaker 2: this in this circle and they're they are moving over
Speaker 2: and back between different organizations. But again it's it's a
Speaker 2: massive shower identity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of
Speaker 1: the sort of armed extreme right. Yeah, has been yeah,
Speaker 1: sort of festering for a long time, unnoticed by a
Speaker 1: lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah, yeah, You've
Speaker 1: mentioned that if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things,
Speaker 1: which I think is right because it's not you know,
Speaker 1: it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where
Speaker 1: would you like, where would you go for coverage, especially
Speaker 1: let's say, you know, parts of Africa are you working?
Speaker 2: I use I would use Twitter quite a lot to
Speaker 2: to look at what what local journalists are doing in
Speaker 2: you know, in places like Mali and the year I
Speaker 2: think I started off, I started off using Twitter in
Speaker 2: Yemen when I was working there because the you know,
Speaker 2: I was fifty kilometers from a town that was entirely
Speaker 2: controlled by al Qaeda, and one of them was on
Speaker 2: Twitter that they were all posting on Twitter, and you know,
Speaker 2: there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on
Speaker 2: Twitter as well, so you got to see in almost
Speaker 2: real time what was happening.
Speaker 3: In these places. Yeah, and when there was.
Speaker 2: No other media really and I carried on using Twitter
Speaker 2: and then because I do write security report, you know,
Speaker 2: digging around and you had there's a couple of online
Speaker 2: and as analysts and as people who are on who
Speaker 2: cover kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite
Speaker 2: a lot in the help okay. Yeah, so you would
Speaker 2: have like the likes of War No War and people
Speaker 2: like that were very good on the arm side of things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's very good at he keeps an eye on
Speaker 1: me mr as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a few useful accounts. I think you do
Speaker 1: share them on your own accounts sometimes as well. I've
Speaker 1: seen I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, from time to time, I'll share them on my own.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is yours? If people want to follow along,
Speaker 1: pitch your feet.
Speaker 3: It's Dermott and couse growth all right, so d or
Speaker 3: Mot and then calls growth COSG or orb. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oneful. It is one of those things that like we
Speaker 1: talk about, you know in many ways, where people spend
Speaker 1: too much time on Twitter and that you know, when
Speaker 1: it dies it will be nice. But it is something
Speaker 1: I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago.
Speaker 1: But I remember when going to Rwanda. One of the
Speaker 1: things that they ask you is that you've verified on Twitter.
Speaker 1: This was before you could buy a verification for seven
Speaker 1: dollars or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people
Speaker 1: to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives sort
Speaker 1: of like especially in places with the government of hostility journalism,
Speaker 1: it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes,
Speaker 1: you know, make them a little bit safer. Also to
Speaker 1: be able to share these things. Yeah, yeah, and losing that,
Speaker 1: like there's no other platform that does that.
Speaker 3: No, there isn't that.
Speaker 2: It's a pity that it's that it's actually gone down
Speaker 2: the road. It's gone down. I mean, I would be
Speaker 2: I work a month on, month off, so I would
Speaker 2: be a big Twitter user when when I'm at work
Speaker 2: because you know, gathering information from my reports and so,
Speaker 2: and then at home I'm not on it so much.
Speaker 2: But you know, for local journalists and activists, it you know,
Speaker 2: it's a fantastic It's the whole idea is fantastic because
Speaker 2: they are able to get that message out. They are
Speaker 2: more visible in countries where they've got repressive regimes, and
Speaker 2: it keeps an eye on them and you know, the
Speaker 2: more visibility they have. It wouldn't be one hundred percent safe,
Speaker 2: but they are a little bit safer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in me and Mari
Speaker 1: as well, just sort of it's only out to the world,
Speaker 1: you know, the Irrawadi and all these other publications which
Speaker 1: are able to get things out, and lots of those
Speaker 1: people are in hiding, you know, like they can't operate
Speaker 1: in cities, and they're able to get things out to
Speaker 1: the world. So like, for that alone, it's valuable. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a shame that it seems to go anywhere it's going.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think there was even the you know,
Speaker 2: during the well even currently, there's still some still some
Speaker 2: people in Afghanistan who are it's their only outlet to
Speaker 2: get information out about what's happening under the Taliban regime.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've in touch with a few people in Afghanistania
Speaker 1: that it's you know, that would all be lost. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have ever found them otherwise or some of them
Speaker 1: know through friends. Yeah, and I want a fine chuck
Speaker 1: by asking like this. The stuff that Wagner has done
Speaker 1: in Africa is repulsive. Stuff done in Syria is disgusting,
Speaker 1: Like what if if you had your your like, if
Speaker 1: you had your way, like, how can people or how
Speaker 1: can governments or what can we do to stop this
Speaker 1: kind of you know, human rights abuse.
Speaker 2: I think there's as much pressure should be can that
Speaker 2: can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and
Speaker 2: senators that if people go to them there in the
Speaker 2: UK government, you know, I'm irish.
Speaker 3: You know, we have a long history of.
Speaker 2: Peacekeeping and stuff like that, and you know, investigations of
Speaker 2: human rights abuses, so you know, it's putting pressure on
Speaker 2: your politicians that actually needs to be taken, you know.
Speaker 2: And the U N I'm I'm not a massive vanity
Speaker 2: win because they have been so ineffectual in places. I mean,
Speaker 2: my my brother was in was in Lebanon on three
Speaker 2: separate occasions with the with the unutiful force. I can
Speaker 2: described this, you know, one hand clapping because they even
Speaker 2: haven't strong their own people.
Speaker 3: But you know, there there.
Speaker 2: Isn't outside of the EU which can enforce sanctions on them.
Speaker 2: You know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone
Speaker 2: associated with Wagner.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there needs to be more.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the the EU has pretty much
Speaker 2: been kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be
Speaker 2: more a better relationship built up with these with these
Speaker 2: organized these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are,
Speaker 2: there is no real other choice. But there has to
Speaker 2: be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If
Speaker 2: you know, journalists, get to journalists, ask them why isn't
Speaker 2: he Why aren't these questions being asked? Is this? You know,
Speaker 2: why is it only being the focus? And I'm a
Speaker 2: big supporter of Ukraine, but why is it only since
Speaker 2: Ukraine that we're seeing Wagner televisions? Yeah, Yeah, they've been
Speaker 2: They've been murdering people, they were putting you know, they
Speaker 2: were pubbly trapping kids, toys and literally as they retreat
Speaker 2: a lot of out of Western Libia. Yet none of
Speaker 2: that appeared, you know, the one BBC report and it
Speaker 2: came out and it died afterwards, which you know, is
Speaker 2: you know, horrendous.
Speaker 3: You know, this needs to be They need to be
Speaker 3: Harmard left bart the center.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think a lot You're right, A lot
Speaker 1: of that comes from if you find editors, you can
Speaker 1: ask them why they haven't cover at this what is
Speaker 1: happening in Africa, Like they were putting human beings and
Speaker 1: holes in the ground.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if you're on Twitter, jump on Twitter,
Speaker 2: follow the follow editors, news organizations.
Speaker 3: And you know, tweeter at them. Just why aren't you
Speaker 3: covering this?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Make them say or make people explain why this doesn't
Speaker 1: matter as much? In the same with your politicians. I know,
Speaker 1: sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but like I
Speaker 1: can't put sanctions on them, you know, and I can't.
Speaker 1: I don't have the ability to project force.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think there's nothing that Wagner produced
Speaker 2: that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to buy you know, I'm not going to buy this
Speaker 2: product because it impacts They don't care. They're they're not
Speaker 2: selling to the consumer. They're you know, they're stealing to
Speaker 2: put in their own buckets.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was. That was
Speaker 1: wonderful there. That's Is there anything you want to else
Speaker 1: you on a plug or anywhere else people can find
Speaker 1: you learn out more, learn more about the stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best past.
Speaker 2: I have kind of promised myself to do a little
Speaker 2: bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in
Speaker 2: because because I work in North Africa, and even though
Speaker 2: I'm not in the Hell itself, the Hell has been
Speaker 2: It's always been a massive area of interest for me.
Speaker 2: So I've kind of, I probably will kind of flip
Speaker 2: my my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's
Speaker 2: going on and across the health.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm on there.
Speaker 2: I've got I've got an Instagram account, but that's only
Speaker 2: really if you like pictures of dogs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it's good for. Yeah, Well, thank you
Speaker 1: very much for your time, Devic. We appreciate it, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I already learn a bit more about this.
Speaker 4: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
Speaker 4: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.