WEBVTT - Wagner Group in Africa 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.320 And everyone. It's me James today and I'm talking to 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:09.240 Dermot Cosgrove about Wagner Wagner, the the Russian Mercenary Group 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.680 and their actions in Africa. This is something that I've 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.280 kind of tried to pitch for several years with not 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.279 much success in the United States media, and I'm sure 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:20.280 lots of other people have two by no means unique 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.960 in that. And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.640 has become something of an expert in their actions when 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.080 things started happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:31.720 to do here was kind of paint a picture of 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.120 how they have a long record of human rights abuse, 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.120 and Dermot to more expert in Africa, so that's what 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.960 we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course, and 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.199 I just wanted to give some more information. So we 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.400 recorded this on last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.000 of August, and we talked a little bit about the 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:54.160 Coup Nigier, which has continued and since we recorded. Ive 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.760 Geenny Pregaorsian, who of course is the head of Wagner, 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.160 the founder of Wagner, that oligarch is in charge of 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:04.679 that private military contracting group made a statements sort of 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:06.520 not exactly saying like oh, yeah, we did this coup, 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.320 but more like saying, oh cool, I see you've had 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.679 a coup. What you could use is a group of 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.200 mercenary Russians who are prepared to do incredible and horrific 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.160 violence on your behalf and let us know. We'll roll up. Also, 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:22.280 since then, Ekowas, which is the Economic Community of West 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.600 African State, it's a West African block there has threatened 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.920 intervention in Nize if they don't sort of return to 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:34.679 a democratic process. And then Mali andned Bookina Faso to 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.920 other countries that are run by military government's military more 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.160 or less hunters have threatened have said they'll stand with Nize, 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.600 stand with the Nize coup. So it threatens to destabilize 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:49.080 again the whole region. Right, You'll see lots of misinformation 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:50.680 about this on Twitter. I've seen a ton of stuff 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.040 from like just tanky accounts who don't fully have a 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.080 grasp on what's happening in this part of the world. 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.360 And I think it's quite dismissive to just use Africa 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.920 to further your whatever your political agenda is, rather than 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:10.160 treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.320 in these countries right es between nich Share, where people 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.200 are already often struggling to get by, really struggling to 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.320 make endst meat like sanctions on this country will hurt them. 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:21.800 Tanctions on this country will hurt the poorest people in 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.960 this country. A military dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:27.919 of life for people, and I would like to see 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.680 people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:36.960 about decononization, like it's That's not what's happening here. What's 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.560 happening is the powerful people have wanted more power, and 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.920 they've taken that at the expense of the quality of 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.200 life and often the lives of other people. Obviously, with 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.400 Mali and Bikina Faso saying that they would like support 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.240 ni Share, those are both governments that struggle to support 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:59.720 themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies, 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:05.040 and like our movement, so you know, no, hugely I 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.920 guess serious threat, but still very destabilizing and again like 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.320 this will have negative impacts for everyone living there, which 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.440 is the thing I'd like to focus on. So we're 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.280 going to start here with introducing himself and then we'll 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:16.919 go from there. 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:24.960 My name is Jermatt Cosgrove. I'm a French from Legion veteran. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.560 I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:33.160 ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.400 and a little bit of South Asia as a security 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:42.640 consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.440 infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media. 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:47.720 Nice. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:53.440 Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.400 not quite as long. But one of the things that 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.920 I remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:05.120 of this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:09.440 was just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally, 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:11.560 stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.160 know that you were obviously on the ground looking at this, 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.560 So can you maybe just start with when you sort 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.040 of first became aware of them and what you were seeing. 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.400 Well, I first became aware of them with their activities 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:30.520 in the Central African Republic when the when the Mayhem 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.920 broke up there a few years ago and the EU 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.880 started sending in troops. There's quite a lot of heavy fighting. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.920 Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.120 quite a lot of fighting going on. Next thing, these 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.760 Russians shot up and it was just a little bit 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.960 kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them in operating in Syria, 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:56.839 but you know, next thing, they're in, of all places, 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:02.159 the Central African Republic, which is a it's high is 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.919 you know, a little bit of a backwater in the 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:10.400 middle of Africa. It's it's quashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi, 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:16.120 the Congo, places like that, and it's historically it's it's been. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.120 There's always been a French French presence. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.320 There, but it's always been a place where there's been 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:24.920 quite a bit of conflict around it. 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:32.159 Yeah. Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah, yeah, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.719 a lot of a lot of different people. It's not 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:36.920 an identity that like fits with with identities on the 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.640 ground and necessarily so, yeah, what was their role there? 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.880 What were they they doing as like a mercenary or 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.320 private military contracting group. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.200 Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows. 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.919 They were they had come in. Apparently they were supposedly 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:58.000 there to train the governments, the Republican Guard of the 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.479 of the presidential Guard. But they were also there was 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.160 also words starting to leak out where they were involved 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:10.240 in the Diamid mines and they you know, they were 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:11.880 they were moving all over the country. 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.240 They were heavily involved in militias. 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.520 Then words started coming out about, you know, there was 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:23.400 murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:29.080 and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this story broke 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:33.919 where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd been following 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.719 the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and I think 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.080 the last thing that we've seen of them was that 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.120 they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:48.280 was just they disappeared in the bush, and that was 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:50.719 I suppose that was kind of the first peak that 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.680 these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there had 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.160 been a company in Russia years ago who were the 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:03.560 Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically Afghan veterans. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.560 Well they operated kind of in the shady oli art 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.840 section of royal security in Russia itself. But Biber Group 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.320 were a completely different animal. You could tell from the 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.520 right from the start these were they had a different model. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.160 Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:26.680 even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.280 to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you, 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.600 like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.200 lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.160 with a South African accent or someone who would claim 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.480 to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.000 you and that was their industry, and they would say 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:46.400 some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.440 hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:49.760 I don't want to have anything to do with this. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.440 But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.120 any means. But yeah, like there was that there was 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.320 there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.560 as sort of the civil warring Columbia became that these 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.920 guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:12.160 be operating more like on behalf of governments or people 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.000 who would be in government, who would like to be 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:19.400 in government. Yeah, yeah, explain how they do shit just differently. 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:26.800 Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:32.480 familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:37.120 Executive Welcomes business model was when they operated, they went 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.760 to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.120 your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.400 paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.880 for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage so 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.120 they would clear Like Executive Wecomes cleared out some of 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.079 the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think they're 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.760 going rate with something like fifteen sent. Wagner groups seem 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.240 to have done that, taken that model, but at the 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.640 same time they've rolled in a little bit of the 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:13.320 the Blackwater type idea in in Iraq where they were 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.400 operating us an arm of of you know, Blackwater, operating 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:21.240 as an arm US government. They were Paul Bremner's personal 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:27.720 guard and Or Wagner seemed to have combined the two 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:34.120 along with making Hollywood movies, because they've made they've made 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.800 a couple of movies, one about Central Africa and there, 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:42.840 you know, these rambo esque kind of movies and it's 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.760 it's just it's like, what the hell is going on here? 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.840 It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:54.480 divorce it from that kind of like global war on 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.160 terror for one of a better phrase like era, Yeah, 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.040 kind of cold that developed around the U Special Forces, 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.720 and they're like, it's why you can buy navy ce 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.040 or soap, right, and like they've they tried to do 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.480 a similar thing but with a private military contractor do 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:14.320 you know, like the what's the composition of these most 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.439 like PMCs from I guess Western nations will be ex 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.559 military people. Is that the case with Wagner or where 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:21.720 are they getting people from? 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.360 Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen of there. 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.640 The people that brought in is that you've got a 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:33.360 core group of Russians who come from the more elite units. 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.440 Now they've been they've been really assigned to the money 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:44.240 making contracts in Africa, so you know, they they've operated 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:49.320 alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is that 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.280 if they do take control of zones in the Marian government, 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:58.000 disastering them a percentage of mineral mineral section and whatever 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.240 in the in the region. They've there's also been talk 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:07.000 of their blatant intimidation and protection rackets of other Western 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.880 you know, Western companies working in the Sahel, so they'll 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.600 rock up and kind of we'll look after you isis 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.520 or a kinda won't get you if you pay as 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:19.920 a fee. And then if the company goes well, you 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.200 know that's crazy. Then you know, suddenly attacks started happening. 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.920 But they seem to be a core in in Africa 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:30.400 at least, and in Libya where they were heavily involved, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.240 there was a core group of Russians who were there, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:40.080 and then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized, 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.280 lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya, 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.120 especially during the during the fighting there when they fought 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.160 for half darkly for a half there, you had you know, 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.560 they brought in Syrians, they were known to have in 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.920 a few other different nationalities of basically eyed. They gathered 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:04.280 in other countries and offer jobs. Yeah, so you had 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:10.000 I think there was about fifteen hundred two thousand Assyrians 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:11.160 at one point. 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.520 Because there's these huge numbers. 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.400 Of Wagner kind of been bounded a boat on maps 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.560 and stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:26.600 Actual proper Wagner personnel wouldn't be massive numbers, but they've 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:30.240 got you know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from the 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.600 like to Syria or other places that they've been. 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.040 In, right, Yeah, and they another thing I guess it 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.280 was unique about them with that they were obsessed with 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:44.679 posting on telegram like I've never seen just incredibly online 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.000 to include like evidence of their war crimes, right, which 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.000 I guess sometimes not at war at all, human rights 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.120 abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, yeah, we should 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.520 probably talk about some of those, just so people can 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.280 get a sense of I think what I'd like people 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.719 to take from this, just to like be explicit about it, 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.360 I suppose, is that, like all this stuff was happening 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.680 in Africa, there was no lack of evidence or people 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.920 trying to say and it was not paid attention to 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.680 by the government or media really, especially in the US, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.560 but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly got sad 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.199 when it happened in Ukraine because there was happening to 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.439 people who were more valued. And I think we can 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:30.200 we'll keep sucking up like that if we keep ignoring especially. 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.520 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm shocked 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.040 in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions put 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.000 on because there's been there's been two U of AN 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.160 investigations into their activities. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.760 There was the the murders. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.360 They were complicit in the murder or actively participated in 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.120 the murder of over three hundred millions in a village 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.479 only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation. 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.760 They've been phound to have been there been participants in it. 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.920 And there's nothing. And I'm you know, you're not seeing 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.480 any UN sanctions. You're not you know, you're not seeing 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:07.559 anything going on. The world seems to be turning a 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.640 blind eye to it. In Libya, I mean, the BBC 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:15.199 had had a report, a special report where they'd actually 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:20.200 found the iPad of one of the Wagner operators with 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.280 tons and tons and tons of evidence as to what 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.960 they were doing, numerous human rights abuses, and again it's 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.400 just like, yeah, that's fine. 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.400 We won't really worry about it. Ops Ukraine. 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.320 Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.400 if you're just a consumer of you know, the New 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.000 York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from? 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:47.080 They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe, 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:51.680 And because our news is very focused on certain countries, 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.480 and certain things. It came as a shock to people, 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:59.160 and maybe it just explained like obviously that human rights 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.920 abuse has been again in Syria. I don't think I 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.360 need to detail that. There are videos that people can 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.000 find on their own time if they want to. Yeah, 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:21.720 some brutal executions in such but yeah, could you like 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.520 at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've where 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.000 they've done that in Africa, I can think of three 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:28.520 or four countries at the top of my head. 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.920 Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.600 big one, which I think was three hundred civilians were murdered. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.880 They basically locked up in a village I think it 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.120 was it's Moon or Mooney Monia as the name of 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.200 the village in Mali. Yeah, they rocked up with the 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:50.000 with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:55.320 murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot. 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.560 And that was there was absolutely. 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:03.480 One percent guaranteed there was Wagner operators did murder and 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:08.880 behead local villagers. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:13.760 was there was an attack against a convoy which included 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:18.000 Wagner personnel and their responsib was to rock into a 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:22.560 village and execute ten people. So you know that's two cases. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.720 That again, unless you're looking, unless you're kind of aware 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.760 of the certain sources that are available and looking at 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.760 localized local journalists who are in these in these countries, 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.160 it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to life. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:44.040 You know, there's Central Africa there, there's been rapes, murders, 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.480 there's been mass rapes, there's you know, there's been executions, torture. 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.520 You know, it's just off the charts. In Mali there 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.080 is actually unknown and it's becoming famous in Mali. There 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.880 is the torture house inside one of their bases in Mali, 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.240 and it's becoming it's widely known as there. 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.680 You know, it's more the. 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:09.280 Multinational organizations, the U N, the you all know about 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.480 its presence. They all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing. 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:13.720 There's still nothing to mean done. 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.840 Yeah, and I think it's easy. Like I think that 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.640 happened if you remember when they were right in France, 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.320 was that people would be like, oh, well, like you know, 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.480 France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.960 comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible, 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.240 but there are other forces. Like I remember someone positing 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.320 that like Mali had been liberated from French control. Uh, 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.200 France left, but like these guys came like it wasn't 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.760 as if you know, there was a you know, a 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:51.160 democratic transition of power or you know, like desirable outcome. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:53.520 And I think, yeah, well. 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.159 I mean, I mean, I mean even this morning they 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.680 with the with the coup in Niger. You know, there 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.320 was a put up by one of the Russian Twitter 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:08.720 accounts claiming that the coup had been orchestrated and managed 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:13.119 by Wagner who were liberating these from the from the coloneliness. 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:19.080 It's just like, yeah, they actually believe there are you 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.199 just do they actually believe their own stuff? 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:22.320 It's just amazing. 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.520 Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it, 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:27.360 but it seems to be very well targeted to get 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.680 people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.720 sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.720 what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denatifying. And when 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.719 you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.640 and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there. It's 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.720 very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.040 And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:57.399 immedia thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think people 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.119 may not be aware of. Is the one thing that 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.760 has been reported a lot. It's a heavy, heavy losses 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:08.119 have taken in Ukraine. Right often in like call the 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.960 almost piano battalions that they have like that, they'll have 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.000 convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain, Like 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.400 I think this might lead people to believe that they're 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.520 not capable of doing what they've done in Africa for 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.080 a long time, But that's that's not correct, right, They're 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:28.400 still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still doing 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:29.640 their terrible ship in Africa. 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.760 Yeah, there's been even recently there was a lot of 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.280 flights being picked up moving in and out of Africa 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.919 which were Wagner associated aircraft And at first it was 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.080 you know, this happened around the time they made them 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:53.639 move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin and there 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.479 was a lot of questions as to as a pullout 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:01.480 of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia. 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.480 And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in. 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.000 But it looks like there's been a ramp up again 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:08.280 in a lot of African countries. 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.920 So it looks like they're upping the personnel now. Whether 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:13.600 it's they've they've cut some. 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:15.960 Kind of deal where they're now just gonna be a 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.280 money maker, I'm not quite sure, but you know, that'll. 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:24.440 Be remained to be seen. If they have Orchestra Niger, 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:30.080 which is possible, then it's clearly kind of a ramp 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.800 up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:38.199 local populations because they whipped up anti French sentiment in 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:43.280 both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even though and 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:47.480 you know the French did the French did bomb kind 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.639 of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians and stuff, 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:59.840 but they the massive reaction to two Leasons Excelence was 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:01.399 technique Wagner at the time. 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:06.280 It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right, 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.639 It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:14.479 process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people, 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.600 and often in ways that are not that distinct from 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.720 the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:26.720 two hundred years ago and real like you've detailed brutal 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:32.520 human rights abuses and it all extends all to extract 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.120 wealth and resources from Africa in a very similar way 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.920 to what we've seen before, but in a less formal way, 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:42.680 I guess than you know with French and British colonialism. 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.760 Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:50.480 im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way, 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:52.840 and it's you know, the money is flowing into the 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.240 pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia. 0:21:57.000 --> 0:21:59.040 I mean the there. 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:00.920 Was a I was in a of a discussion this 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:05.440 morning about about Niger and someone made a comment about 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.680 there being oh there's not the if you look at them, 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:13.920 the Sahel map and the mineral wealth that there's there's 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:18.320 more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction further south 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:21.360 into the Congo. But the thing is in and I've 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.720 worked in Mauritania. You know, you have Mauritania which is 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.399 three times the size of France with a population of 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.840 four million, and yet only one percent of the country 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.000 has actually been surrouted for its mineral wealth, and it 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.159 already has massive gold, iron and iron ore deposits and 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.880 copper deposits. If you take that, if you go over 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:45.960 into Burkino Faso, it has huge gold gold deposits which 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:50.200 are under explored. It's relatively the vast majority will be 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:54.920 artisanal mining. The same with Mali. And if you go 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.640 across into Nigir, you've got the huge uranium mine which 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:03.240 is a keystone of the of the French nuclear industry Arlett, 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:06.719 which would be worth a fortune to whoever would control 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:07.400 the territory. 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.400 So it's. 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:17.600 It's a very colonialist I suppose manual to what the 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.200 what Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:24.680 very much a corporate model as opposed to coming in 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:29.280 and establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.680 of administration and governments and stuff like that too loocle go. 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.720 But they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know, 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:42.679 they will manipulate and and embed themselves with the local 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.200 military who you know, if you you know you've got Mali, 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:50.120 it's it's governed now by a military military junta Niger 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:52.800 is likely to be the same, and you can have 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:53.679 Brookino Faso. 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:55.480 It's not quite far off that either. 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.640 And yeah, so they're if you don't in these countries, 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:01.960 if you won't have the backing of the military, you've 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:02.480 got nothing. 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:03.520 You're not going to be in power. 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:06.840 So yeah, and then if they could throw the military 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.720 and then they control it in power, right and as 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:11.679 long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:13.560 to extract wealth, and they don't care. 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:17.720 And yeah, and it's you know the other part of 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:20.560 it is they're they're bringing in all the toys for 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:23.920