1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: And everyone. It's me James today and I'm talking to 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Dermot Cosgrove about Wagner Wagner, the the Russian Mercenary Group 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: and their actions in Africa. This is something that I've 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: kind of tried to pitch for several years with not 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: much success in the United States media, and I'm sure 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: lots of other people have two by no means unique 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: in that. And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: has become something of an expert in their actions when 9 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: things started happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: to do here was kind of paint a picture of 11 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: how they have a long record of human rights abuse, 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: and Dermot to more expert in Africa, so that's what 13 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course, and 14 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: I just wanted to give some more information. So we 15 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: recorded this on last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first 16 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: of August, and we talked a little bit about the 17 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: Coup Nigier, which has continued and since we recorded. Ive 18 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: Geenny Pregaorsian, who of course is the head of Wagner, 19 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: the founder of Wagner, that oligarch is in charge of 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: that private military contracting group made a statements sort of 21 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: not exactly saying like oh, yeah, we did this coup, 22 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: but more like saying, oh cool, I see you've had 23 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: a coup. What you could use is a group of 24 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: mercenary Russians who are prepared to do incredible and horrific 25 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: violence on your behalf and let us know. We'll roll up. Also, 26 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: since then, Ekowas, which is the Economic Community of West 27 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: African State, it's a West African block there has threatened 28 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: intervention in Nize if they don't sort of return to 29 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: a democratic process. And then Mali andned Bookina Faso to 30 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: other countries that are run by military government's military more 31 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: or less hunters have threatened have said they'll stand with Nize, 32 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: stand with the Nize coup. So it threatens to destabilize 33 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: again the whole region. Right, You'll see lots of misinformation 34 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: about this on Twitter. I've seen a ton of stuff 35 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: from like just tanky accounts who don't fully have a 36 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: grasp on what's happening in this part of the world. 37 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: And I think it's quite dismissive to just use Africa 38 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: to further your whatever your political agenda is, rather than 39 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living 40 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: in these countries right es between nich Share, where people 41 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: are already often struggling to get by, really struggling to 42 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: make endst meat like sanctions on this country will hurt them. 43 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: Tanctions on this country will hurt the poorest people in 44 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: this country. A military dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality 45 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: of life for people, and I would like to see 46 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument 47 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: about decononization, like it's That's not what's happening here. What's 48 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: happening is the powerful people have wanted more power, and 49 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: they've taken that at the expense of the quality of 50 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: life and often the lives of other people. Obviously, with 51 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: Mali and Bikina Faso saying that they would like support 52 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: ni Share, those are both governments that struggle to support 53 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies, 54 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: and like our movement, so you know, no, hugely I 55 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: guess serious threat, but still very destabilizing and again like 56 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: this will have negative impacts for everyone living there, which 57 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: is the thing I'd like to focus on. So we're 58 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: going to start here with introducing himself and then we'll 59 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: go from there. 60 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: My name is Jermatt Cosgrove. I'm a French from Legion veteran. 61 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen 62 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East 63 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: and a little bit of South Asia as a security 64 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies, 65 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media. 66 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: Nice. 67 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for 68 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: not quite as long. But one of the things that 69 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: I remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise 70 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: of this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It 71 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: was just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally, 72 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I 73 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: know that you were obviously on the ground looking at this, 74 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: So can you maybe just start with when you sort 75 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: of first became aware of them and what you were seeing. 76 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: Well, I first became aware of them with their activities 77 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: in the Central African Republic when the when the Mayhem 78 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: broke up there a few years ago and the EU 79 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: started sending in troops. There's quite a lot of heavy fighting. 80 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still 81 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: quite a lot of fighting going on. Next thing, these 82 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: Russians shot up and it was just a little bit 83 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them in operating in Syria, 84 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: but you know, next thing, they're in, of all places, 85 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 2: the Central African Republic, which is a it's high is 86 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: you know, a little bit of a backwater in the 87 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: middle of Africa. It's it's quashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi, 88 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: the Congo, places like that, and it's historically it's it's been. 89 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 3: There's always been a French French presence. 90 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: There, but it's always been a place where there's been 91 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: quite a bit of conflict around it. 92 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah, yeah, 93 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of different people. It's not 94 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: an identity that like fits with with identities on the 95 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: ground and necessarily so, yeah, what was their role there? 96 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: What were they they doing as like a mercenary or 97 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: private military contracting group. 98 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows. 99 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 2: They were they had come in. Apparently they were supposedly 100 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: there to train the governments, the Republican Guard of the 101 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: of the presidential Guard. But they were also there was 102 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: also words starting to leak out where they were involved 103 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: in the Diamid mines and they you know, they were 104 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: they were moving all over the country. 105 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 3: They were heavily involved in militias. 106 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: Then words started coming out about, you know, there was 107 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias 108 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this story broke 109 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 2: where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd been following 110 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and I think 111 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: the last thing that we've seen of them was that 112 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There 113 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 2: was just they disappeared in the bush, and that was 114 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: I suppose that was kind of the first peak that 115 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there had 116 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: been a company in Russia years ago who were the 117 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 2: Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically Afghan veterans. 118 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: Well they operated kind of in the shady oli art 119 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: section of royal security in Russia itself. But Biber Group 120 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: were a completely different animal. You could tell from the 121 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: right from the start these were they had a different model. 122 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to 123 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives 124 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you, 125 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and 126 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone 127 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: with a South African accent or someone who would claim 128 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to 129 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: you and that was their industry, and they would say 130 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like 131 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking 132 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to have anything to do with this. 133 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by 134 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: any means. But yeah, like there was that there was 135 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry 136 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: as sort of the civil warring Columbia became that these 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to 138 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: be operating more like on behalf of governments or people 139 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: who would be in government, who would like to be 140 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: in government. Yeah, yeah, explain how they do shit just differently. 141 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be 142 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 2: familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and 143 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: Executive Welcomes business model was when they operated, they went 144 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out 145 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a 146 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum 147 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage so 148 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: they would clear Like Executive Wecomes cleared out some of 149 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think they're 150 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: going rate with something like fifteen sent. Wagner groups seem 151 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: to have done that, taken that model, but at the 152 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: same time they've rolled in a little bit of the 153 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: the Blackwater type idea in in Iraq where they were 154 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: operating us an arm of of you know, Blackwater, operating 155 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: as an arm US government. They were Paul Bremner's personal 156 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: guard and Or Wagner seemed to have combined the two 157 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: along with making Hollywood movies, because they've made they've made 158 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: a couple of movies, one about Central Africa and there, 159 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 2: you know, these rambo esque kind of movies and it's 160 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 2: it's just it's like, what the hell is going on here? 161 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't 162 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: divorce it from that kind of like global war on 163 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: terror for one of a better phrase like era, Yeah, 164 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: kind of cold that developed around the U Special Forces, 165 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: and they're like, it's why you can buy navy ce 166 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: or soap, right, and like they've they tried to do 167 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: a similar thing but with a private military contractor do 168 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: you know, like the what's the composition of these most 169 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 1: like PMCs from I guess Western nations will be ex 170 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: military people. Is that the case with Wagner or where 171 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: are they getting people from? 172 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen of there. 173 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: The people that brought in is that you've got a 174 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: core group of Russians who come from the more elite units. 175 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: Now they've been they've been really assigned to the money 176 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: making contracts in Africa, so you know, they they've operated 177 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is that 178 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 2: if they do take control of zones in the Marian government, 179 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: disastering them a percentage of mineral mineral section and whatever 180 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: in the in the region. They've there's also been talk 181 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: of their blatant intimidation and protection rackets of other Western 182 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: you know, Western companies working in the Sahel, so they'll 183 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: rock up and kind of we'll look after you isis 184 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: or a kinda won't get you if you pay as 185 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: a fee. And then if the company goes well, you 186 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: know that's crazy. Then you know, suddenly attacks started happening. 187 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: But they seem to be a core in in Africa 188 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: at least, and in Libya where they were heavily involved, 189 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: there was a core group of Russians who were there, 190 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: and then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized, 191 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 2: lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya, 192 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: especially during the during the fighting there when they fought 193 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: for half darkly for a half there, you had you know, 194 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: they brought in Syrians, they were known to have in 195 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: a few other different nationalities of basically eyed. They gathered 196 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: in other countries and offer jobs. Yeah, so you had 197 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: I think there was about fifteen hundred two thousand Assyrians 198 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: at one point. 199 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: Because there's these huge numbers. 200 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: Of Wagner kind of been bounded a boat on maps 201 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: and stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors. 202 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: Actual proper Wagner personnel wouldn't be massive numbers, but they've 203 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: got you know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from the 204 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: like to Syria or other places that they've been. 205 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: In, right, Yeah, and they another thing I guess it 206 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: was unique about them with that they were obsessed with 207 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: posting on telegram like I've never seen just incredibly online 208 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: to include like evidence of their war crimes, right, which 209 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: I guess sometimes not at war at all, human rights 210 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, yeah, we should 211 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: probably talk about some of those, just so people can 212 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: get a sense of I think what I'd like people 213 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: to take from this, just to like be explicit about it, 214 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: I suppose, is that, like all this stuff was happening 215 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: in Africa, there was no lack of evidence or people 216 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: trying to say and it was not paid attention to 217 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: by the government or media really, especially in the US, 218 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly got sad 219 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: when it happened in Ukraine because there was happening to 220 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: people who were more valued. And I think we can 221 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: we'll keep sucking up like that if we keep ignoring especially. 222 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm shocked 223 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions put 224 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: on because there's been there's been two U of AN 225 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: investigations into their activities. 226 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: There was the the murders. 227 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: They were complicit in the murder or actively participated in 228 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: the murder of over three hundred millions in a village 229 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,479 Speaker 2: only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation. 230 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: They've been phound to have been there been participants in it. 231 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: And there's nothing. And I'm you know, you're not seeing 232 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: any UN sanctions. You're not you know, you're not seeing 233 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 2: anything going on. The world seems to be turning a 234 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: blind eye to it. In Libya, I mean, the BBC 235 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 2: had had a report, a special report where they'd actually 236 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: found the iPad of one of the Wagner operators with 237 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: tons and tons and tons of evidence as to what 238 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: they were doing, numerous human rights abuses, and again it's 239 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: just like, yeah, that's fine. 240 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: We won't really worry about it. Ops Ukraine. 241 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think 242 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: if you're just a consumer of you know, the New 243 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from? 244 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe, 245 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: And because our news is very focused on certain countries, 246 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: and certain things. It came as a shock to people, 247 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: and maybe it just explained like obviously that human rights 248 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: abuse has been again in Syria. I don't think I 249 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: need to detail that. There are videos that people can 250 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: find on their own time if they want to. Yeah, 251 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: some brutal executions in such but yeah, could you like 252 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've where 253 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: they've done that in Africa, I can think of three 254 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: or four countries at the top of my head. 255 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the 256 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: big one, which I think was three hundred civilians were murdered. 257 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: They basically locked up in a village I think it 258 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: was it's Moon or Mooney Monia as the name of 259 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: the village in Mali. Yeah, they rocked up with the 260 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and 261 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot. 262 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 3: And that was there was absolutely. 263 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: One percent guaranteed there was Wagner operators did murder and 264 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: behead local villagers. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there 265 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: was there was an attack against a convoy which included 266 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: Wagner personnel and their responsib was to rock into a 267 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 2: village and execute ten people. So you know that's two cases. 268 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: That again, unless you're looking, unless you're kind of aware 269 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: of the certain sources that are available and looking at 270 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: localized local journalists who are in these in these countries, 271 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to life. 272 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: You know, there's Central Africa there, there's been rapes, murders, 273 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: there's been mass rapes, there's you know, there's been executions, torture. 274 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 2: You know, it's just off the charts. In Mali there 275 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: is actually unknown and it's becoming famous in Mali. There 276 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: is the torture house inside one of their bases in Mali, 277 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: and it's becoming it's widely known as there. 278 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 3: You know, it's more the. 279 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: Multinational organizations, the U N, the you all know about 280 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: its presence. They all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing. 281 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: There's still nothing to mean done. 282 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's easy. Like I think that 283 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: happened if you remember when they were right in France, 284 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: was that people would be like, oh, well, like you know, 285 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously 286 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible, 287 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: but there are other forces. Like I remember someone positing 288 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: that like Mali had been liberated from French control. Uh, 289 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: France left, but like these guys came like it wasn't 290 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: as if you know, there was a you know, a 291 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: democratic transition of power or you know, like desirable outcome. 292 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, well. 293 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I mean even this morning they 294 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 2: with the with the coup in Niger. You know, there 295 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: was a put up by one of the Russian Twitter 296 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: accounts claiming that the coup had been orchestrated and managed 297 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: by Wagner who were liberating these from the from the coloneliness. 298 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: It's just like, yeah, they actually believe there are you 299 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 2: just do they actually believe their own stuff? 300 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: It's just amazing. 301 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it, 302 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: but it seems to be very well targeted to get 303 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole 304 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that 305 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denatifying. And when 306 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,719 Speaker 1: you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa 307 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there. It's 308 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it. 309 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an 310 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: immedia thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think people 311 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: may not be aware of. Is the one thing that 312 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: has been reported a lot. It's a heavy, heavy losses 313 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: have taken in Ukraine. Right often in like call the 314 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: almost piano battalions that they have like that, they'll have 315 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain, Like 316 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: I think this might lead people to believe that they're 317 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: not capable of doing what they've done in Africa for 318 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: a long time, But that's that's not correct, right, They're 319 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still doing 320 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: their terrible ship in Africa. 321 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been even recently there was a lot of 322 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: flights being picked up moving in and out of Africa 323 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: which were Wagner associated aircraft And at first it was 324 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: you know, this happened around the time they made them 325 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin and there 326 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 2: was a lot of questions as to as a pullout 327 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia. 328 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in. 329 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: But it looks like there's been a ramp up again 330 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: in a lot of African countries. 331 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 3: So it looks like they're upping the personnel now. Whether 332 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 3: it's they've they've cut some. 333 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: Kind of deal where they're now just gonna be a 334 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: money maker, I'm not quite sure, but you know, that'll. 335 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 3: Be remained to be seen. If they have Orchestra Niger, 336 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: which is possible, then it's clearly kind of a ramp 337 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 3: up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up 338 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 3: local populations because they whipped up anti French sentiment in 339 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even though and 340 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 3: you know the French did the French did bomb kind 341 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 3: of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians and stuff, 342 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 3: but they the massive reaction to two Leasons Excelence was 343 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 3: technique Wagner at the time. 344 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right, 345 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this 346 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,479 Speaker 1: process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people, 347 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: and often in ways that are not that distinct from 348 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty 349 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: two hundred years ago and real like you've detailed brutal 350 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: human rights abuses and it all extends all to extract 351 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: wealth and resources from Africa in a very similar way 352 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: to what we've seen before, but in a less formal way, 353 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: I guess than you know with French and British colonialism. 354 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate 355 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way, 356 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: and it's you know, the money is flowing into the 357 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia. 358 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 3: I mean the there. 359 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 2: Was a I was in a of a discussion this 360 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: morning about about Niger and someone made a comment about 361 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 2: there being oh there's not the if you look at them, 362 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: the Sahel map and the mineral wealth that there's there's 363 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction further south 364 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 2: into the Congo. But the thing is in and I've 365 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: worked in Mauritania. You know, you have Mauritania which is 366 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: three times the size of France with a population of 367 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: four million, and yet only one percent of the country 368 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: has actually been surrouted for its mineral wealth, and it 369 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: already has massive gold, iron and iron ore deposits and 370 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 2: copper deposits. If you take that, if you go over 371 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 2: into Burkino Faso, it has huge gold gold deposits which 372 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: are under explored. It's relatively the vast majority will be 373 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 2: artisanal mining. The same with Mali. And if you go 374 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 2: across into Nigir, you've got the huge uranium mine which 375 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: is a keystone of the of the French nuclear industry Arlett, 376 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 2: which would be worth a fortune to whoever would control 377 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 2: the territory. 378 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 3: So it's. 379 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: It's a very colonialist I suppose manual to what the 380 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: what Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's 381 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 2: very much a corporate model as opposed to coming in 382 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 2: and establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind 383 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 2: of administration and governments and stuff like that too loocle go. 384 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: But they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know, 385 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 2: they will manipulate and and embed themselves with the local 386 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: military who you know, if you you know you've got Mali, 387 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 2: it's it's governed now by a military military junta Niger 388 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 2: is likely to be the same, and you can have 389 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 2: Brookino Faso. 390 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 3: It's not quite far off that either. 391 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 2: And yeah, so they're if you don't in these countries, 392 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: if you won't have the backing of the military, you've 393 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: got nothing. 394 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: You're not going to be in power. 395 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, and then if they could throw the military 396 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: and then they control it in power, right and as 397 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire 398 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: to extract wealth, and they don't care. 399 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 2: And yeah, and it's you know the other part of 400 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: it is they're they're bringing in all the toys for 401 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: the for these god for these governments as well. They're 402 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 2: importing drawns, they're importing weaponry, helicopters, you know. 403 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about a little bit, because that's something 404 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: they seem to have. Like Eric Prince tried to get 405 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: himself a plane, right and he didn't really do very well. 406 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: And that, like their access to military hardware is it's unprecedented. 407 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: So like where they're able to obtain all that. 408 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 2: Well, they're definitely they're definitely a collusion with I mean, 409 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: whatever tensions there are in Ukraine between the Russian military 410 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: and Wagner, there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the. 411 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 3: Russian military when it comes to secure and hardware for Africa. 412 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they there was brand new twenty fours 413 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: unloaded in Mali only last year and they met a 414 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: very very big show of the French leaving and these 415 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: and these helicopters arriving. So you know, there's there's been 416 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: Turkish built drones are starting to are coming in left, 417 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 2: right and center across all with the aid and. 418 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 3: Shipment by Wagner. 419 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: So they're they have incredible with Russian produced equipment. They 420 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: have incredible access access to it, and it can only 421 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: come from one place, it only it can only come 422 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: from the military. And you know, doubt you know, we've 423 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 2: we've seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that 424 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: are fifty years old because there's nothing on their basis. 425 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 2: Well kind of it's very clear that there was nothing 426 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 2: on their basis because these weapons are shown are being 427 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: transported for use in Africa. 428 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right, They're still 429 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: selling planes, they're still selling munitions there, and it's yeah, yeah, 430 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: like it's it's almost like a I don't know that 431 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: there's like a corporate and a state structure, and sometimes 432 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: it seems like especially well we see that in the 433 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: US too, I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires, 434 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: they're parallel. One doesn't one doesn't have sort of over 435 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: the other. One thing I do want to get into 436 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: is this culture that exists was in Wagner that is 437 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: an extreme glorification of violence, right and in a glorification 438 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: of sometimes of Nazism of other sort of related kind 439 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies. 440 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: And you can see a lot in the telegram. Can 441 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: you speak atle bit to that. 442 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been there's definitely been an element of these 443 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 2: guys have been recruited from right wing in the in 444 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 2: the Russian military, and we already know there was some 445 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 2: of these units were heavily involved with the with the 446 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyway, 447 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: and you know, we've seen across like it's been hugely 448 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: in evidence across some of the some of the said 449 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,239 Speaker 2: towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner had 450 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 2: left graffiti of you know, the sonon Rand and a 451 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: lot of these other Nazi symbols, and there is this 452 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I 453 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 2: mean the executions, beatings, you know, the torture of local 454 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: non white people in there. You know that they're coming 455 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: upcoming contact. But we've seen it in Syria, brutal executions. 456 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 2: It's a very much a white supremacist. 457 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 3: Far right. 458 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 2: It's not even undertones because it's so it's so blatant, 459 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: it's right in your face. I mean, they just don't 460 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: hide it on their telegram channels, they don't hide it 461 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: where they go. You know, we've seen military patches that 462 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: they're wearing, which are you know, extreme right, graffiti they 463 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 2: leave behind which is extreme right. You know, even I 464 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: haven't seen the movies they've met, but I believe they're 465 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 2: they're actually there's there's a lot of image there as well, 466 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 2: which would be you're right up the street of kind 467 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: of neo fascist organizations as well. 468 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly seems they're pretty expective about it, and 469 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: no one they don't care. I mean, yeah, for Goose, 470 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: you're not supposed to be called it Wagner because it 471 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: was Hitler's favorite composer. 472 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's. 473 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: Like some of the there's there's crossover between some of 474 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: the other ruten far right or organizations and some of 475 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: the you know, some of these units, these far right 476 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: units who have been who are in in Ukraine and 477 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: Wagner there is a kind of cross pollination personnel as well. 478 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it certainly seems they sort of go back 479 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: and forth with the military. It's not like I think 480 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: people would say there's more of a distinct entity than 481 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: it perhaps is. 482 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're they're not They're not a. 483 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: There's guys from Wagner will show up with with other 484 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: organizations from time to time, but then they seem to 485 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: kind of drift back to Wagner. And seeing that especially 486 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: in Ukraine in sort as well in Libya, there was 487 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: there was guys that have identified who were operating in 488 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: you know, with Wagner in Libya who definitely had you know, 489 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: had operated with other organizations as well. You know, they've 490 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: been I think there was a number of them were 491 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: had been photographed that had actually been id during some 492 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: of the football violence in Marcill during the European coupled 493 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: a few years ago. So you know, they're they're in 494 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: this in this circle and they're they are moving over 495 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: and back between different organizations. But again it's it's a 496 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: massive shower identity. 497 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of 498 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: the sort of armed extreme right. Yeah, has been yeah, 499 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: sort of festering for a long time, unnoticed by a 500 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah, yeah, You've 501 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: mentioned that if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things, 502 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: which I think is right because it's not you know, 503 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where 504 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: would you like, where would you go for coverage, especially 505 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: let's say, you know, parts of Africa are you working? 506 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 2: I use I would use Twitter quite a lot to 507 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: to look at what what local journalists are doing in 508 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: you know, in places like Mali and the year I 509 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: think I started off, I started off using Twitter in 510 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 2: Yemen when I was working there because the you know, 511 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: I was fifty kilometers from a town that was entirely 512 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: controlled by al Qaeda, and one of them was on 513 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: Twitter that they were all posting on Twitter, and you know, 514 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 2: there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on 515 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: Twitter as well, so you got to see in almost 516 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: real time what was happening. 517 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: In these places. Yeah, and when there was. 518 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: No other media really and I carried on using Twitter 519 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: and then because I do write security report, you know, 520 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: digging around and you had there's a couple of online 521 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 2: and as analysts and as people who are on who 522 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: cover kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite 523 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: a lot in the help okay. Yeah, so you would 524 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: have like the likes of War No War and people 525 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: like that were very good on the arm side of things. 526 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's very good at he keeps an eye on 527 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: me mr as well. 528 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 529 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a few useful accounts. I think you do 530 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: share them on your own accounts sometimes as well. I've 531 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: seen I do. 532 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, from time to time, I'll share them on my own. 533 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, what is yours? If people want to follow along, 534 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: pitch your feet. 535 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 3: It's Dermott and couse growth all right, so d or 536 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 3: Mot and then calls growth COSG or orb. Yeah. 537 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,719 Speaker 1: Oneful. It is one of those things that like we 538 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: talk about, you know in many ways, where people spend 539 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: too much time on Twitter and that you know, when 540 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: it dies it will be nice. But it is something 541 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago. 542 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: But I remember when going to Rwanda. One of the 543 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: things that they ask you is that you've verified on Twitter. 544 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: This was before you could buy a verification for seven 545 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: dollars or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people 546 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives sort 547 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: of like especially in places with the government of hostility journalism, 548 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes, 549 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, make them a little bit safer. Also to 550 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: be able to share these things. Yeah, yeah, and losing that, 551 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: like there's no other platform that does that. 552 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 3: No, there isn't that. 553 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: It's a pity that it's that it's actually gone down 554 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: the road. It's gone down. I mean, I would be 555 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 2: I work a month on, month off, so I would 556 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: be a big Twitter user when when I'm at work 557 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: because you know, gathering information from my reports and so, 558 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: and then at home I'm not on it so much. 559 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: But you know, for local journalists and activists, it you know, 560 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: it's a fantastic It's the whole idea is fantastic because 561 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: they are able to get that message out. They are 562 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: more visible in countries where they've got repressive regimes, and 563 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 2: it keeps an eye on them and you know, the 564 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 2: more visibility they have. It wouldn't be one hundred percent safe, 565 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: but they are a little bit safer. 566 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in me and Mari 567 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: as well, just sort of it's only out to the world, 568 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: you know, the Irrawadi and all these other publications which 569 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: are able to get things out, and lots of those 570 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: people are in hiding, you know, like they can't operate 571 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: in cities, and they're able to get things out to 572 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: the world. So like, for that alone, it's valuable. And yeah, 573 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: it's a shame that it seems to go anywhere it's going. 574 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think there was even the you know, 575 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 2: during the well even currently, there's still some still some 576 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: people in Afghanistan who are it's their only outlet to 577 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: get information out about what's happening under the Taliban regime. 578 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 579 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've in touch with a few people in Afghanistania 580 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: that it's you know, that would all be lost. I 581 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: wouldn't have ever found them otherwise or some of them 582 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: know through friends. Yeah, and I want a fine chuck 583 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: by asking like this. The stuff that Wagner has done 584 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: in Africa is repulsive. Stuff done in Syria is disgusting, 585 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: Like what if if you had your your like, if 586 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: you had your way, like, how can people or how 587 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: can governments or what can we do to stop this 588 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 1: kind of you know, human rights abuse. 589 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 2: I think there's as much pressure should be can that 590 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 2: can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and 591 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: senators that if people go to them there in the 592 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 2: UK government, you know, I'm irish. 593 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 3: You know, we have a long history of. 594 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 2: Peacekeeping and stuff like that, and you know, investigations of 595 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 2: human rights abuses, so you know, it's putting pressure on 596 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 2: your politicians that actually needs to be taken, you know. 597 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: And the U N I'm I'm not a massive vanity 598 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: win because they have been so ineffectual in places. I mean, 599 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 2: my my brother was in was in Lebanon on three 600 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 2: separate occasions with the with the unutiful force. I can 601 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 2: described this, you know, one hand clapping because they even 602 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: haven't strong their own people. 603 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 3: But you know, there there. 604 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 2: Isn't outside of the EU which can enforce sanctions on them. 605 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 2: You know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone 606 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 2: associated with Wagner. 607 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there needs to be more. 608 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the the EU has pretty much 609 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 2: been kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be 610 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: more a better relationship built up with these with these 611 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,479 Speaker 2: organized these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are, 612 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 2: there is no real other choice. But there has to 613 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 2: be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If 614 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: you know, journalists, get to journalists, ask them why isn't 615 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 2: he Why aren't these questions being asked? Is this? You know, 616 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: why is it only being the focus? And I'm a 617 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 2: big supporter of Ukraine, but why is it only since 618 00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 2: Ukraine that we're seeing Wagner televisions? Yeah, Yeah, they've been 619 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 2: They've been murdering people, they were putting you know, they 620 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 2: were pubbly trapping kids, toys and literally as they retreat 621 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: a lot of out of Western Libia. Yet none of 622 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: that appeared, you know, the one BBC report and it 623 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 2: came out and it died afterwards, which you know, is 624 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 2: you know, horrendous. 625 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 3: You know, this needs to be They need to be 626 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 3: Harmard left bart the center. 627 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think a lot You're right, A lot 628 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: of that comes from if you find editors, you can 629 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: ask them why they haven't cover at this what is 630 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: happening in Africa, Like they were putting human beings and 631 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: holes in the ground. 632 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 633 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if you're on Twitter, jump on Twitter, 634 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: follow the follow editors, news organizations. 635 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 3: And you know, tweeter at them. Just why aren't you 636 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 3: covering this? 637 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 4: Yeah? 638 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 1: Make them say or make people explain why this doesn't 639 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: matter as much? In the same with your politicians. I know, 640 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 1: sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but like I 641 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: can't put sanctions on them, you know, and I can't. 642 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: I don't have the ability to project force. 643 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think there's nothing that Wagner produced 644 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 2: that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going 645 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 2: to buy you know, I'm not going to buy this 646 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: product because it impacts They don't care. They're they're not 647 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 2: selling to the consumer. They're you know, they're stealing to 648 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 2: put in their own buckets. 649 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was. That was 650 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: wonderful there. That's Is there anything you want to else 651 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: you on a plug or anywhere else people can find 652 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: you learn out more, learn more about the stuff. 653 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: Well, well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best past. 654 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 2: I have kind of promised myself to do a little 655 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 2: bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in 656 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 2: because because I work in North Africa, and even though 657 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 2: I'm not in the Hell itself, the Hell has been 658 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 2: It's always been a massive area of interest for me. 659 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: So I've kind of, I probably will kind of flip 660 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 2: my my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's 661 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 2: going on and across the health. 662 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm on there. 663 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: I've got I've got an Instagram account, but that's only 664 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 2: really if you like pictures of dogs. 665 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it's good for. Yeah, Well, thank you 666 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: very much for your time, Devic. We appreciate it, and yeah, 667 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: I already learn a bit more about this. 668 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 4: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 669 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 670 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 671 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 672 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 4: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 673 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 4: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.