1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frind, I'm Tracy Wilson, and today we're going 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: all the way back to the third century and to 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: a city that's said to have been built by Solomon, 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: who was once called tad Moore and then it became 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: in as paul Myra and it uh sits on the 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: northeast edge of the Syrian Desert. And our focus today 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: is on a woman who was actually covered in the 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: podcast several years ago, uh, Zenobia of Palmyra. And that 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 1: was when the podcast was running much shorter, and uh, 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Katie and Sarah did an episode on her. And Zenobia 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: is a historical figure that has become so mythic and 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: she's you know, classified as a warrior woman. Uh. And 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: she there are so many variations to her story and 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: there's so many layers to the politics that we're going 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: on at the time with area and specifically Palmyra and Rome, 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: that I thought maybe it would be nice to give 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: a more fleshed out version of it. Um And it's 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: an interesting pronunciation point. I know they say Palmyra in 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: the original episode. I listened to a bunch of different 22 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: pronunciation guides, the overwhelming majority went with Palmyra. So just yes, 23 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: we do that. Sometimes we start looking for pronunciations for 24 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: things and we will hear it makes it way worse. 25 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: We will hear multiple completely different pronunciations from equally trustworthy 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: sources and like equally native sources to the place that 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: we're talking about. Yeah, I mean that happens with um. 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: You know, if you listen to English all over the 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: United States, certainly, then if you include other countries to 30 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: speak English as their first language, you will hear many 31 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: different pronunciations of common words and even specific place names. 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: So it happens. But we're going with Palmyra for this one. 33 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: So there was an article on pre Islamic Arab queens 34 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: that was written for the American Journal of Semitic Languages 35 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: and Literatures way back in and in that article, author 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: Nabia Abbott opens by noting that the first Arab queen 37 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: on record is in the tenth century b C. And 38 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: that name will no doubt be familiar to our listeners 39 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: because that first queen was the Queen of Sheba. And 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: while the biblical account of her visit to King Solomon 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: is a little short on details and specificity about her 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: uh and even her origins as being from South Arabia 43 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: is pretty consistently debated by historians. As a monarch, she 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: became ingrained in the stories of many different cultures and 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 1: many different religions, and she's even referenced casually in conversation 46 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: by people like, aren't you just the Queen of Sheba? 47 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: Uh just become an idiom? Just really, she's her own 48 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: little magical icon. But there have been many, many Arab queens. 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: And while the Queen of Sheba may have paved the way, 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: the wh they we're talking about today came to be 51 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: known as Palmira's rebel queen in the third century, and 52 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: she came into her position through marriage, but she really 53 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: proved to be an extremely capable ruler. So to get 54 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: into her story, we need a little bit of background 55 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: of the relationship between Rome and Palmyra. So in the 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: year two thirty five, there was a revolt which was 57 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: engineered by maxim Inist, who was commander of the Roman army, 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: and this led to the murders of the ruling duo 59 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: of Rome at the time, that was Alexander Severus and 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: his mother Julia Avita Mamaya and the death of the 61 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: two of them kicked off this half century long period 62 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: of civil unrest. During the fifty years from two thirty 63 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: five to eighty five, there were more than two dozen 64 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: emperors as anarchy and revolt just sort of became the 65 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: way that things worked. And a lot of these rulers 66 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: were not actually Roman. Yes, so you're looking at an 67 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: average rain time of two years or us. There were 68 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: some that were in longer, which meant others ran shorter. 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: That's a lot of quick turnover uh. And so for example, 70 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: from to forty four to to forty nine, speaking of 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: rulers that were not actually Roman, UH, Marcus Julius Philippus ruled, 72 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: and he had previously been known as Philip the Arab UH. 73 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: He had a distinguished military service and that combined with 74 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: some wildly moves and getting discontented soldiers to revolt for him, 75 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: actually gained him leadership in Rome after outstaying Gordian the 76 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: fourth and Marcus Julius Philippus wanted to set up an 77 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: Arab dynasty, so he actually promoted members of his own family, 78 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: including his seven year old son, into prominent political positions. 79 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: But since his rule did fall in that fifty years 80 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: of unrest. I don't think it's a huge spoiler to 81 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: say that his ambitions of having a dynasty uh were 82 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: a little bit dashed. But another family did manage to 83 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: create a near dynasty, not in Rome proper, but in 84 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: all my Ara. Sometime around two thirty or two thirty one, 85 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Odin Athis became a Roman senator. His son Heron was 86 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: the first man to be titled rass Tadmer or raised Tadmore, 87 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: making him the chief of Palmyra, which was a city 88 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: in central Syria, and palm Ira dates back at least 89 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: to the nineteenth century b c e. Though in the 90 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: third century a road running through it and its oasis 91 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: made it made it an important travel and trade route. Uh. 92 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: The pal Irene population was descended from many many tribes 93 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: that had blended together, and they actually spoke this dialect 94 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: of Aramaic, so it was almost like this really interesting 95 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: trade route melting pot um. You know. It became a 96 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: really central place for things to come and go, and 97 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: even for people to kind of come and go and 98 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: add their own cultural flavor, and it's um. It was 99 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: very unique in that way. Heron also had a son 100 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: named odin Athis after his grandfather, and he was able 101 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: not only to inherit the power and standing of his father, 102 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: but also to really consolidate and expand it. He managed 103 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: to rise to such a big position of prominence that 104 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: he eventually became recognized as the king of Palmyra, and 105 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: that at that point the city had become a really 106 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: significant seat of influence in the region. So if that 107 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: sounds a little bit wild, with all of this sudden 108 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: gathering of power and then a person being able to say, 109 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: by the way, I'm king of this area now, um, 110 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: when he had been you know, sort of more of 111 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: a a lower level ruler, it is wild. But remember 112 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: that Rome was kind of a train wreck at this point. 113 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: It was in a perpetual state of chaos. There was 114 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: constant in fighting, you know, one ruler was being overthrown 115 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: after another, and Sasanian Persian was a very real threat 116 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: to Rome at the time. Uh. And incidentally, Palmira sat 117 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: squarely between Persia and Rome. And what that means is 118 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: that odin Athis, in the midst of all of this 119 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: in fighting and him growing his city and his power, 120 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: had actually become the most important politician in what was 121 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: then called the Roman East. Very fortunately for the Romans, 122 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: odin Athos was a gifted military strategist, so in spite 123 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: of Persia being really better positioned in terms of power, 124 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: he was able to shut down the Persian advances on 125 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: Rome's territory and power via the series of well planned 126 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: campaigns and uh. Just as an interesting side note, where 127 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: odin ath has kind of put his loyalty at this 128 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: point in time was sort of interesting. Many historians will say, 129 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: really he was better aligned with Persia, but there were 130 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: some other conflicts going on there that kind of made 131 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: him throw in his lot with Rome. Uh. And so 132 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: that's really why he defended the area against the oncoming Persians. Uh. 133 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: And But despite his popularity and his celebrated status for 134 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: having basically saved Rome from a much more powerful and 135 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: well organized army, odin Athis was assassinated in two sixty six, 136 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: and at the same time, his eldest son, who is 137 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: yet another Heron because they kept naming one after one, 138 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: would named their next son after the father, and so 139 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: it goes odan athas hair and oaths Heron Uh was 140 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: also killed. So his his heir at the time, was killed. 141 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: His obvious air Um and that sort of leads us 142 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: to how Zenobia came to power right and about sixteen 143 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: years before his death in the year to fifty, odin 144 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: Athis married Zenobia, and with his sudden death, she stepped 145 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: in to act as regent for their surviving son, Babel Athis. 146 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: And uh for a little bit of background on Zenobia, 147 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: because she does sort of come into the story and 148 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: the politics almost out of nowhere. Uh. There's a book 149 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: by Pat Southern called Empress Zenobia, Palmira's Rebel Queen, and 150 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: in it the author points out that because we don't 151 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: really have a reliable account of Zenobia's life, her story 152 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: really has a lot of uh different versions and variations. 153 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: Arab sources referenced her as being the daughter of a 154 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: chief of the Umlaki or i'm a Laki tribe, which 155 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: who was named Nila, and she is in some tellings 156 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: labeled as Queen Toddy and is sometimes referenced as Navsha, 157 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: although that name is also used in some versions of 158 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: the story for a sister that Zenobia may or may 159 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: not have even had. Um. Another theory about her origin 160 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: actually suggests that she was the daughter of Julius Aurelius 161 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: Zenobia's Zabdila, who was an army leader of Palmyra Uh 162 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: and some even suggests that she was actually a descendant 163 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 1: of Antiochus. So there is a lot of um questioning 164 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: and many question marks surrounding even her parentage. So any 165 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: story that you hear about her has likely been colored 166 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: by the person who told it a little bit. So 167 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: much like when we did the Buddhica story, it was 168 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: a very similar situation where it's like, there are lots 169 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: of accounts, but they're a little fuzzy and they don't 170 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: seem to match up. So just keep that in mind 171 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: as we talk about some new be a going forward. 172 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: Her name on the coinage of her rule is Septimia 173 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: Zenobia sebast So since naming often denoted family lines at 174 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: this point, it's led some people to wonder about a 175 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: different father than all of those who were listed before. 176 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: But it's kind of it's more possible that the name 177 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: was actually bestowed upon her by her husband. Yeah, he 178 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,119 Speaker 1: when he had risen to a certain level of prominence, 179 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: he bestowed that name on people on many people in 180 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: his um, his group, his close friends, and family, because 181 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: names were very important and considered a big element of 182 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: respect and it's also worth noting, and they talk about 183 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: it a little bit more in the episode that Katie 184 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: and Syrit did that just in making her own coinage, 185 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: Zenobia was being a little bit rebellious by a little bit, 186 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: I mean a lot um uh, you know, rather than 187 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: going with the standard Roman currency and bringing that in 188 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: her own. And one interesting point that I found when 189 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: looking through Pat Southern's book, she describes the source material 190 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: when researching Zenobia as quote irritatingly contradictory. If I just 191 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: found that sort of charming, because I think we've all 192 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: run up against that when we're doing research, particularly on 193 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: really ancient topics. They don't match up all the time, 194 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: so we kind of do our best to put the 195 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle together, but there's always going to 196 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: be a little bit of uncertainty, especially people in antiquity who, 197 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: like we're not necessarily born into a really notable family. 198 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: They just kind of arrive on the scene. They just 199 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: show up, and we're going to kind of guess who 200 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: where they came from. According to this sparse information that 201 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: we have, Zenobia was born in two forty or two 202 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: forty one, But there's really no corroboration on these dates. 203 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: Also problematic is the fact that sources list her as 204 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen when she married odan Athis in two five. 205 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: So we have a lot of numbers that no A'll 206 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: really add up. Yeah, the math is not doesn't really 207 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: function prop really in that. So, um, she was odin 208 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: athis second wife. That son of his named Hyran named 209 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: heron that died at the same time he was assassinated 210 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: was from his first wife. Zenobia bore him a second son, 211 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: Babulthis between roughly two fifty eight and two sixty, so 212 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: he would have been uh, somewhere between six and eight 213 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: when his father was assassinated, so obviously not old enough 214 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: to rule, which is why she took over as regent. 215 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: So going back to the Enobia's rule, Uh, it turned 216 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: out that she really took to ruling like a duck 217 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: to water. She was a really smart woman. She was 218 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: well educated, she was multi lingual, and she did not 219 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: have any problems stepping up to command forces and make 220 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: state decisions. She was not a woman who lacked for 221 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: confidence in the least. So this actually brought up kind 222 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: of a problem Claudius to who was not at all 223 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: fond of Palmyra's independent standing, decided to take Zenobia's kingdom 224 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: by force, and into sixty seven, Roman troops invaded Syria, 225 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: and this plan didn't pan out so well for Claudius 226 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: the Second. It's unclear why he thought the same forces 227 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: that had so deftly turned away Persian attacks and save 228 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: Rome would fall to the Roman army, which everyone had 229 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: recognized was weaker than the army they had just defeated. 230 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: But his troops were soundly defeated by the Paul Iron 231 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: or Paul Irene. I've seen it written both ways, soldiers. 232 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: The defeated emperor just decided that he would leave Zenobia 233 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: to her reign. They kind of had a careful alliance. Uh. 234 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: They were friendly, but not exactly tight for the rest 235 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: of Claudius the Second sovereignty. So, as a new ruler 236 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: who had just repelled Roman invasion to secure Palmira's independence, 237 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: Zenobia's first priority was to shore up her position. So 238 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: even though there were bigger events playing out involving Rome 239 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: and its position in the world, her focus was on Palmyra. Yeah, 240 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: you have to wonder if having watched her husband kind 241 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 1: of side up with Rome and then really getting burnt 242 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: in the deal because he got killed right after he 243 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: saved them. If she if that didn't pretty significantly impact 244 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: her approach to ruling and saying no, no, it's going 245 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: to be us first. Uh. And she really in some accounts, 246 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: some of the newer um biographies of her, really do 247 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: focus on her more as like I'm trying to look 248 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: out for my country and my people, and it's not 249 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: so much about her being power hungry, which is how 250 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: she's sometimes portrayed. But she first expanded Palmyras borders towards 251 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: Mesopotamia to the east and then towards Asia Minor in 252 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: the northwest. And during this time she wasn't really neglecting 253 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: palmirase duties and its ties with Rome as part of 254 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: their alliance. But like I said, she really did have 255 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: a sense that she should be looking out for Palmyra 256 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: first always. When Roman Emperor Claudius died, Zenobia became a 257 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: little more aggressive and her expansion of the territory, although 258 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: she also seems to have kept an effort to keep 259 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: the peace with Claudius's successor are Ray Alien palm Iron 260 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: coins of the period feature a Aelian which shows, you know, 261 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: some kind of amicable agreement between the two of them, 262 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: but amicable arrangement or not, things did not stay cordial. 263 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: Arelium was really adverse to the idea that the Roman 264 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: Empire was going to be divided by people like Zenobia, 265 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: who were, you know, really creating their own stable power base, 266 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: and Palmira was just getting too powerful for his comfort. 267 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: So while Aralian was busy with other campaigns and couldn't 268 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: really pay attention to what Zenobia was doing, in two 269 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: seventy pal Marine troops advanced into Syria and Egypt, and 270 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: Zenobia was able to expand her domain so that it 271 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: stretched all the way from Egypt to Mesopotamia and from 272 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: the hell Sponse to North Arabia. But in two seventy two, 273 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: Arelian was then wrapping up other matters and he was 274 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: ready to turn his attention to the Palmyra issue. And 275 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: as he advanced towards her troops near Antioch, some of 276 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: her Roman and Greek troops actually deserted, and as a consequence, 277 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: she suffered a terrible defeat. But some things only got 278 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: worse when her troops encountered the Imperial Army again in 279 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: a Mesa, where she was once again defeated. So unlike before, 280 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: when she had pretty soundly taken care of things, her 281 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: troops were starting to break up at the same time 282 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: that Rome's troops were really rallying and getting more powerful 283 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: and more organized under a Relian. This reminds me of 284 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: a board game that I like to play called Small World, 285 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: in which your goal is to take more territory. Yeah, 286 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: but it gets to a point where you cannot defend 287 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: the territory to examine more and you start to decline. 288 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: And that is what happened. Zenobia fell back to Palmyra, 289 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: but Aurelian was right on her heels, and it would 290 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: seem like he was about to just strike the killing blow, 291 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: but all of this campaign had really taken a toll 292 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: on him and his troops, and a Relian at this 293 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: point actually offered Zenobia a deal. But in the deal, 294 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: she would have to surrender, and she was frankly having 295 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: none of that. Uh. Any military strategists would say that 296 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: this was a really foolish response on her part. She 297 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: was in terrible trouble already, she'd had two big defeats, 298 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: and she kind of stirred the pot because she was 299 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: a little bit of a staff pants. So here's the 300 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: bulk of the letter that was sent to Zenobia by Aralian, 301 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: as printed in William Wright's book on Account of Palmyra 302 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: and Zenobia. And this was claimed to be preserved by 303 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: Flavius of Episcus as part of the Historia Augusta. And 304 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: this is Aralian's note. You ought to do that of 305 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 1: your own accord, which is commanded by my letters. I 306 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: charge you to surrender on your lives being spared, and you, 307 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: o Zenobia, may pass your life in some spot where 308 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: I shall place you in pursuance of the distinguished sentence 309 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: of the Senate. Your gems are silver, gold, silk, horses, 310 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: camels being given up to the Roman treasury. The laws 311 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: and institutions of the palm Irons shall be respected. So 312 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: he's basically saying, you'll have to give us everything, but 313 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna set you up in a nice house. You'll 314 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: be fine, but you will be surrendered. And Zenobia's response 315 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: was basically nope. Here is her reply. No one as 316 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: yet except THEE, has dared to ask what thou demandest. 317 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: Whatever is to be achieved by war must be sought 318 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: by valor. Thou askest me to surrender, as if thou 319 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: wert ignorant that Queen Cleopatra chose rather to perish than 320 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: to survive her dignity. The Persian auxiliaries whom we await 321 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: cannot be far off. The Saracens are on our side, 322 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: as well as the Armenians. The Syrian robbers O Aurelian 323 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: have conquered your army. What then if that band which 324 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: we expect on all sides shall come, you will then 325 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: lay aside the superciliousness with which you now demand my surrender, 326 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: as if you were victor on every side. Yeah, she 327 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: didn't really have any interest in bending to his will. Obviously. 328 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: I have to wonder how much of this is um 329 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: has been made more floral and it's in its verbiage 330 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: than the original, But we don't know. This is the 331 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: one historical piece of well, and you know we we talked. 332 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: We had a similar situation in our episode about Boudice. Yeah, 333 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: that she has the big speech, has a big speech 334 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: that was recorded by Roman people. Kind of Yeah, same situation, um, 335 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: But regardless of whether that is a more florid version 336 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: of her reply or not, she did not give up, 337 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: and the siegeon Palmira continued and it was nothing short 338 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: of catastrophic. The city was basically raised UH and Palmyra 339 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: and its residents surrendered, but Zenobia really didn't. She actually 340 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: took off on a camel, as you do. She was 341 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: headed to Persia to beg for the help that she 342 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: had thought was going to be coming and had kind 343 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: of threatened Arelian with UH. And that plan did not 344 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: work out so well, because she was actually UH pursued 345 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: and captured by UH the Roman forces, and she was 346 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: taken before Aralian for trial, and according to most accounts, 347 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: right around this time, her son also died, so she 348 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: was all that was left of the family kingdom that 349 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: odin Athos had built. And while many Romans apparently demanded 350 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: Zenobia's death, Aurelian instead wanted to make her a big 351 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: feature of his victory parade, which was really her last 352 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: historic appearance that is recorded consistently throughout many tellings. That's 353 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: the last time she was seen UH. And in some 354 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: versions of this story, he absolutely loaded her down with 355 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: so many jewels and gold chains and pendance that she 356 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: could barely walk UM, almost as if to say, fine, 357 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: you want to keep all your stuff, here's how you 358 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: do it. We're gonna put it all on you and 359 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: make you walk in the parade so I can show 360 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: you how ridiculous you are and all of Rome will 361 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: see it. It's kind of a cruel and interesting way 362 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: to punish a person. Yeah. Uh. There are some accounts 363 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: that suggest her son was in the parade, which would 364 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: say he did not die, but more favored the idea 365 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: that he was killed around this time. So at the 366 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: end of Zenobia's life, things are a little cloudy when 367 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: it comes to details, and there are lots of conflicting 368 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: accounts of exactly what happened. In some of the stories, 369 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: she commits suicide. In others, she's granted her freedom by 370 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: Aralian and she lives out her life and a villa. 371 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:19,959 Speaker 1: The thing that she had not really wanted to have happened. 372 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: Variation on the suicide story suggests that she starved to 373 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: death on the trip to Rome and never actually appeared 374 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: in the parade. Yeah, that she basically went on a 375 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: hunger strike, she starved herself. Uh. And some accounts, though, 376 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: even paint this picture of her living this really fab 377 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: life in her villa, and that she married a Roman 378 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: and she had daughters and they all lived as Romans 379 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: and happily ever after a kind of version. Uh. Again, 380 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: we don't really know. That seems a little far fetched 381 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: to me, but it could have happened, I wasn't there. Yeah. 382 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: Some some historians like the pairs Zenobia with the Queen 383 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 1: of Sheba as two examples of strong Arab queens, but 384 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: Zenobia herself apparently preferred to be compared to Cleopatra. Some 385 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: historians have suggested that this was kind of a point 386 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: of pride with her because Cleopatra is more famous than 387 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: the Queen of Sheba. H. So at times she may 388 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: have even claimed to have been a descendant of Cleopatra, 389 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: although the math on that is pretty shady. Yeah, like 390 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: the math and her her claims of the lineage and 391 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: how it would have worked don't really work out correctly. 392 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: She is also sometimes compared to Budica, who we referenced 393 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: a couple of times and we featured in a previous podcast. Uh. 394 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: And as for her city, Palmira, it's been a UNESCO 395 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: World Heritage Sites in nineteen eighty. It's pretty much abandoned 396 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: at this point, and it's there's a little village I 397 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: think nearby, but uh, there're still ruins that stand that 398 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: we're somehow survived the the raising that happened under Aralian 399 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: and I'm sure someone was rebuilt. But that's the scoop, 400 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: A little bit more of a deeper dive on Zenobia 401 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: and her mythic status and a relationship with with Rome. Yeah. 402 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: I don't think we'll ever know the full true story 403 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: at this point. Nope. The longer the years go on, 404 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: the less the information becomes reliable. Well, and even if 405 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: we find, uh, you know, unearthed from somewhere more accounts 406 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: of her life, in all likelihoods, they would just add 407 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: more contradictions anything, they would be new and exciting version, 408 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: exciting contradictions to the story that already hasn't many contradictions. Yeah, 409 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: which is the peril of any ancient story. In ancient history, 410 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: we can't always trust the accounts, Nope, And the trustworthy 411 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: ones are often really brief, So we put it together. 412 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: I believe you also have some listener mails. I do. 413 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: I have two pieces of mail, both about our Haunted 414 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: Mansion podcast. Uh. The first is from our listener Jesse, 415 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: and she says, I listened to both parts of your 416 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: podcast on the hand and Haunted Mansion while I was 417 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: at work last week and loved it so much that 418 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: my husband and I listened to it again on our 419 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: way through aut Disney World last Sunday, and I'm wondering 420 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: if she wasn't there at the same time I was. Uh. 421 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: Finally got us in the spirit no pen intended, and 422 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: we went on the Haunted Mansion first. That we live 423 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: in Florida now, I grew up in southern California and 424 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: my family always had annual passes to Disneyland. We would 425 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: go on all of the rides repeatedly, of course, and 426 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: this included the Haunted Mansion. Since we were there so frequently, 427 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: we got to know a lot of the cast members, 428 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: and one of the stories they were fond of telling 429 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: us was that there was a little table in the 430 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: seance room that was often moved by actual spirits during 431 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: the hours when the park was closed. I have many 432 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: happy memories of riding the Haunted Mansion and checking to 433 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: see what side of the room the table would be 434 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: on that day. Sure enough, sometimes it was on the 435 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: left side, and sometimes it was on the right. Whether 436 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: or not this was evidence of an actual mischievous spirit 437 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: or just a bit of extra Disney magic sprinkled on 438 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: by cast members isn't for debate. We love the podcast, 439 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: keep up the good work. So I just love that 440 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: because it is one of those uh Disney magic things 441 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: where no cast member, We'll tell you one way and 442 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: the other I tell you probably spirit. I love it. 443 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: And then we got another great email from Jeff who 444 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: is the webmaster at JOm buggies dot com that I 445 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: actually referenced in our podcast. He says, Hi, Tracy and Holly, 446 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: great episode on the Haunted Mansion a personal passion of mine. 447 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: One thing I thought i'd point out in case it 448 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: might matter to you, and of course it does, Jeff. Uh, 449 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: the Evergreen House you mentioned is not actually any reference 450 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: for the architectural look of disney Lands Pounded mansion that 451 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: was debunked a few years ago by a couple of 452 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: Disney historians and salutes and my website played a part, 453 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: and Jason Surrell even noted the new information in the 454 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: revised edition of his book that came out to a 455 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: couple of years ago. The Winchester House and also Hurst Castle, 456 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: by the way, we're studied by uh W E D 457 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: primarily in terms of how they handled group tours. Ken 458 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: Anderson actually just copied right down to the perspective. A 459 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: photo of another house in Baltimore called the Shipley Lie 460 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: Decker House that he found it in a book of 461 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: Victorian arc that was in the W. E. D Library. Uh. 462 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: And he says if the W. E. D imagineers did 463 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: visit the Evergreen House in Baltimore, I'm guessing it was 464 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: simply to research the Shipley Lie Decker House, since the 465 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: Evergreen House is part of Johns Hopkins University. But the 466 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: Shipley Lie Decker House is very clearly the beginning and 467 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: end of the architectural inspiration for Walt's Hana Mansion at Disneyland. 468 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: I'll attach a side by side image. But I love 469 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: the episode. I'm looking forward to part two, and this 470 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: gave me an awesome excuse to buy the updated version 471 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: of the book when I was in Disney World yesterday. 472 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: I just got back. Uh. And he is absolutely correct 473 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: that is mentioned in the update. So thank you Jeff 474 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: for correcting that, because of course we care. That's cool stuff. 475 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: I want to visit all those houses that were part 476 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: of the I mean, I've been to a couple, but 477 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: that would be a fun tour, like the inspiration for Disneylands. 478 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: Want imagine tour of weird and wonderful mention. Let's do that, 479 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: Okay for the podcast, uh, So, thank you to both 480 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: of you for your funny emails. Keep those coming. If 481 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: you would like to email us, you can do so 482 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: at History Podcasts at Discovery dot com. You can visit 483 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: us at Facebook dot com, slash history class stuff on 484 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: Twitter at missed in History and missed in History dot 485 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: tumbler dot com. We are also on Pinterest spinning historical 486 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: things and things of historical interest. Uh. If you would 487 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: like to learn about a topic related to today's subject, 488 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: you can go to our website and for a fun 489 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: and wacky search, you can type in the words first 490 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: feminists and uh. 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