1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,159 Speaker 1: There's Bloomberg sound on The Insiders, the Influencers, the Insides, 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Fiden Thomas again and again it he will denite the country. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: Who do you think Fiden has to watch in terms 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: of moderate defectors. Infrastructure has always been our part offender 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg sound on on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jack Fitzpatrick with 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg coming up on the show today, we got to 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: talk about the Facebook oversight board decision to uphold the 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: suspension of Donald Trump's account. Also, Representative Liz Cheney's leadership 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: position among House Republicans is in peril. And of course 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: we've burt that the US is going to back the 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: push to wave intellectual property protections for COVID nineteen vaccines. 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: I'm talking later to Boyd Matheson, host of Inside Sources 13 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: on KSL News Radio out in Utah. Also a former 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: chief of staff to Mike Lee. And of course we've 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: got Jeanie Schanzano, Bloomberg Politics contributor, Big Newsday, Big Sinco 16 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: de Mayo Top story of the day. I think Facebook's 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: oversight board, the so called Supreme Court of Facebook upholding 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: the suspension of the former president, former president Donald Trump's 19 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: Facebook account after what he shared leading up to the 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: January six riots at the Capitol. They recommended though a 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: review of this decision within six months. On the phone 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: with us joining us, as Boyd Matheson of KSL News 23 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: Radio in Utah, a former chief of staff to Senator 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: Mike Lee, Boyd, thanks so much for joining us. Very 25 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: curious from your perspective, with all the controversy around this, Uh, 26 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: the back and forth with Facebook temporarily kicking Donald Trump 27 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: off and then saying we need a review of this, 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: and then their board saying you need to review this 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: even further? Is Facebook just setting itself up for legislation 30 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: and regulation as a government going to step in here? 31 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: Do you think? Yeah? I think it's fascinating. Is the 32 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: is the report came out this morning. You could almost 33 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: hear the Judiciary staff of Manys of Congress writing, the 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: questions are going to be asking, uh, Mark Zuckerberg next 35 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: time they haul him in person questions And it's interesting. 36 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 1: There's really some some fascinating wrap around and almost alternate 37 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: universe conversations going on, where in a in a real rarity, 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: you have many Republican members of Congress calling for more regulation, 39 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: not less regulation, and of course a lot of that 40 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: they feel is because of targeting conservatives over liberals and 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: so on. Uh. And of course there are examples of 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: both sides dealing with that. But it is going to 43 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: be a fascinating conversation in our nation's capital to see 44 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: what comes of this. Uh and and really some interesting 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: conversations around things that may even get into federal election 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: law if the former president, if the former president decides 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: to run again in four and he's not on Twitter 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: and he's not on Facebook, does that become problematic as 49 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: it relates to federal election laws. So a lot of 50 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: fascinating stuff coming out. Well, yeah, you at a really 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: good point. We're hearing from Republicans and we're hearing from 52 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: Democrats to a lot of people frustrated with Facebook. But 53 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: it seems to, unsurprisingly becoming from different angles. And I 54 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: saw a tweet from Kevin McCarthy, the House Republican leader, 55 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: today referencing how Republicans want to reign in the influence 56 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: of social media companies. If you contrast that with somebody 57 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: like Frank Polone, who's House and Energy and Commerce Chair, 58 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: who said, you know, this board doesn't address misinformation, It 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: seems like from a liberal perspective, you've got lawmakers who 60 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: want Facebook to step in in instances like this and 61 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: UH and probably kick maybe more people off, whereas there 62 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: are conservatives who are just unhappy with big tech as 63 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: they see it. What do you think it means when 64 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: you hear Republicans saying we want to reign in social 65 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: media companies that really regulation? Is that an antitrust thing? 66 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: Or what what does the government do if Republicans UH 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: have a big year in two and say we want 68 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: to take down big tech? What does that actually mean? Yeah, 69 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those very slippery slopes for 70 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: all sides, because the the interesting thing is that it's 71 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: easy to call for that that censorship the first time, 72 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: but and you usually like that kind of censorship. It's 73 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: the second sensor that happens. That usually is you being 74 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: censored that people are less excited about. And those those 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: those pendulums tend to swing back and forth. And so 76 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: we I think that will be one thing that will 77 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: be interesting. Is it just anti trust as you mentioned, 78 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,559 Speaker 1: is it more in terms of regulatory oversight in terms 79 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: of these uh? And then you know what you have 80 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: the financial models of all of these as well, where 81 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: these companies are profiting by the way they're regulating and 82 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: serving up information as well. So there's a there's a 83 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: host of issues that again the Senate and the House 84 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: Judiciary committees, uh anti trust to everything else is going 85 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: to be very busy, I think in the coming month. 86 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: Right now, before we even really get to that, before 87 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: we get to the process of legislating and regulating, I 88 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: think there are some questions to be answered just in 89 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: terms of how Facebook is handling this. And as I mentioned, 90 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: there was a bit of a back and forth, you know, 91 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: when they're this initial suspension came into place in January, 92 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: Facebook asked the oversight board for input on what do 93 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: we do when it's a politician who we're thinking about 94 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: suspending Genie. I'm curious how you see this? Uh what 95 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: are we learning in terms of, you know, does an 96 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: oversight board help? Does it even help to have a 97 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, as as I said, some people call it 98 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: the supreme Court of Facebook. What are we learning about 99 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: the efficacy of that kind of supposedly independent organization helping 100 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: govern a big social media company. Well, there's a few 101 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: things that we're learning. Number one is before we even 102 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: get to this oversight board is the fact that Donald 103 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: Trump is dominating the news today, not just this story, 104 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: also about Republican leadership, also the Amy Burman Jackson story 105 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: right down down the stretch. You look at the top 106 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: of the news today and he is all over it. 107 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: This is the tip of the iceberg. And as we 108 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: look at this oversight of board, what they've done is 109 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: just kicked the can back to Facebook. Facebook did not 110 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: want to make this decision. They set up this oversight committee, 111 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: this oversight group, and they kicked it back to Facebook. 112 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: The issue here is is that in the United States, 113 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: we do not let companies that are being harmful to 114 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: society harm us. The government is going to have to 115 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: step in on this. You know, we don't let drug 116 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: companies sell drugs that are harmful to people. Social media 117 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: companies making big money that are hurting the public in 118 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: a variety of ways, and there's agreement on both sides 119 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: about this have to be controlled in some way. And 120 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: they can't hide, as Mark Duckerberginson trying to do under 121 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: this guise of free speech, which is they are not 122 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: they're not pressed, but they're hiding under this guise of 123 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: free speech. Another none of that is absolutely so the 124 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: government is going to step in here and rightly so. 125 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: These big tech companies need to be broken up. Well, 126 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: you're right about Trump continuing to dominate the attention at 127 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: least today. But I think the question is does that 128 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: go on and on if he's not on Facebook and 129 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: he's also not on Twitter. Uh. Now to your point, Uh, 130 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: this actually came up in today's press briefing. The Press 131 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: Secretary Jen Psaki addressed this. Let's play the sound from 132 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: Jen Psaki on this Trump Facebook issue. The major platforms 133 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: have a responsibility related to the health and safety of 134 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: all Americans, Uh, to stop amplifying untrustworthy content, disinformation and misinformation, 135 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 1: especially related to COVID nineteen, vaccinations, and elections. Okay, So, 136 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: I mean we're we're hearing a lot about this, We're 137 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: hearing Trump's statements that he's putting out even if we're 138 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: not seeing his Facebook and Twitter account. But realistically, uh, 139 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: through Voyd, how much can Donald Trump dominate attention the 140 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: way he did, especially in if he's not on social media? 141 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: How how pivotal do you think this is? Uh for 142 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: him running again or even just him getting the attention 143 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: the way he wants to talking about the mid terms. Yeah, well, 144 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: I think a genie pointed out something really critical. Just 145 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: see what he did today, Even without having those platforms, 146 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: He was able to really drive and dominate an entire 147 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: news cycle, even on a day when a lot of 148 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: other things are going on that matter in terms of 149 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: the pandemic and what comes next, statements from President Biden 150 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: and so on. So he still clearly has enough swat 151 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: and sway to do that. It will be interesting to 152 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: see how his own platforms emerge, if they really have 153 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: any kind of staying power or if they're just kind 154 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: of flashing the pan kinds of things. But he is 155 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: serving as a really interesting uniter of words. I mean, 156 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: any day where you have Elizabeth Warren and Ted Cruz 157 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: agreeing on what the Senate should do is sort of 158 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: alternate universe kind of stuff. But but it shows the 159 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: power of former President Trump in terms of driving a 160 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: conversation with or without the current platforms in play well. 161 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: And it also I think shows how, even though Trump 162 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: has put himself at this center of the Republican Party 163 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: sometimes on ideological lines, he's a bit of a cross 164 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: cutting issue. But what does that mean for the Senate. 165 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: If they're going to legislate on this, can they actually 166 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: get uh some sort of piece of legislation on how 167 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: to address social media that gets sixty votes in the Senate? 168 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 1: I don't think this is something you can do through 169 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: budget reconciliation just on a partisan on partisan lines, Boyd. 170 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: When when you say, you know, all right, we're hearing 171 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: some bipartisan agreement, what does that mean for legislating, especially 172 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: in the Senate. Yeah, I think for the Senate judiciary standpoint, 173 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: I think there will be some common ground there that 174 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: there could be something put on the floor that that 175 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: maybe even could get to sixty. Uh. It seems hard 176 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: to get anything to sixty these days, but there there 177 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: may just be a scenario there. I think it'll have 178 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: to be fairly narrow in terms of scope in terms 179 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: of what they do. I don't know if it will 180 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: go all the way to Jeannie's point in terms of 181 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: breaking up those big tech companies, but my guess is 182 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: they would most likely start with some sort of oversighter 183 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: regulatory received in place that maybe can start to, uh 184 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: to handle that just a little bit better. How many 185 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: of these people do you actually think, Boyd agree should 186 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: on the question, should politicians get kicked off? For lyon 187 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: H that's a great, that's a great. It probably depends 188 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: on the day. It's the uh. And it would be 189 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: an interesting redefining of words because you can even see 190 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: that now you can see where some of them said, hey, 191 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: this is this is censorship. Some are saying, no, this 192 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: is this is just hard a harm reduction model, um. 193 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: And so that becomes an interesting conversation, and in and 194 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: of itself, I don't know that a lot of the 195 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: members of Congress currently would say, yeah, you should be 196 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: kicked off maybe if you, if you if you told 197 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: a little white lie, or if you or maybe not 198 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: totally truthful. But you know, it's an interesting combination for sure. Yeah, 199 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: that's a that's a big issue. But we gotta talk 200 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: about vaccines and Liz Cheney coming up at Boyd mathieson 201 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: with us and Jeanie Schnzano. I'm Jack Fitzpatrick. This is Bloomberg. 202 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg sound on on Bloomberg Radio. Jack Fitzpatrick 203 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: along with Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeanie Sonzano and Boyd Mathison, 204 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: former chief of staff or Senator Mike Lee of Utah, 205 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: Big News Today, US Trade Representative Katherine Tye says the 206 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: US will back a push to waive the intellectual property 207 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: protections for COVID nineteen vaccines. This is a process that 208 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: goes through the World Trade Organization. Very glad to have 209 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: Genie and Boyd with me. Now, this sounds like the 210 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: start of an extensive process rather than a panacea for 211 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: countries like India and South Africa and others that want 212 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: more access to the information behind these vaccines. But it's 213 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: basically supposed to help them, uh create more capacity, Genie, 214 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: Uh tell me, are we talking about something that's going 215 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 1: to make a significant difference in the near future or 216 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: the beginning of a long, long process with the World 217 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: Trade Organization? Unfortunately, I think it's going to be a 218 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: longer process. Obviously, you look at cases like India where 219 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: the need is so great and immediate, and you wish 220 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: there could be a way to move this forward much 221 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: quicker than it looks like it might move forward. But 222 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: I do think it's an important step in the right direction. 223 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: This is a global crisis, and unfortunately, countries that are 224 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: not as wealthy as the United States are really really suffferring, 225 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,479 Speaker 1: and so the United States I think, and the administration 226 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: has said this has a duty, as do other states 227 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,359 Speaker 1: of means to step in and offer this kind of assistance. 228 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: So I think we have to wait and see how 229 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: they're going to proceed with these negotiations over this plan. Unfortunately, 230 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: it might not be as quick as is necessary. Though. 231 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: Now this was something that I know was pushed at 232 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: least in part or supported by senators like Bernie Sanders 233 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Warren. You see opposition from drugmakers who had 234 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: a lot of complaints about this proposal. Although it sounds 235 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: like the details of the pro proposal will certainly change, 236 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: Boyd walk us through what are the politics of this issue? 237 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: It it sounds good to try to get everybody in 238 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: the world vaccinated, I'm not sure it's going to be 239 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: quite that simple. What are what are the domestic politics 240 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: here at play? Yeah? As always, the good sounding names 241 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: is really tough. Genie's absolutely right. I think this is 242 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: going to be a big bite and along to because 243 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of components in there that just haven't 244 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: been spelled out specifically yet. I do think it's an 245 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: important thing for us to realize that we are interconnected 246 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: in this very interconnected world. And what is going on 247 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: in India is going to impact here at home as well. 248 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: And so I do think one of the positive outcomes 249 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: of the pandemic is that it has given us a 250 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: better view of how interconnected we are. And so I 251 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: do think that has at least created space for more 252 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: agreement in terms of the domestic side. Is as you said, 253 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: but again, I think this is just going to be 254 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: is not going to get to the immediate needs of 255 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: places like India and other places around the world for 256 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: that matter, that are in the middle of the crisis. 257 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: This is going this is gonna be a long process. 258 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: And when you say that, boyd learning how interconnected we 259 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: all are, I mean in a practical sense, what's your 260 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: main concern? Is the concern you let this fester somewhere 261 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: else and you end up allowing the virus to evolve 262 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: into a different variants and it comes back and hurts 263 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: us even worse. Or what why are we so interconnected today? Well, 264 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: I think we've seen the variants already in coming, whether 265 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: it's from the UK variant or whether it's a variant 266 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: coming out of Brazil. The one thing we know about 267 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: viruses is they do mutate to survive, and so I 268 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: don't think anybody should exhale and think that, you know, 269 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: lights at the end of the tunnel and all of 270 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: us well in the United States, So because simply isn't it. 271 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: We even saw with some of the international meetings today 272 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: that we're you know, touted as hey, we're going to 273 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: do this in person, only to find out that some 274 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: of those who participated had COVID nineteen And so again 275 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: it's just a very interconnected world that way. Variants are 276 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: going to continue, um and so how we address it, 277 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: how aggressively we address those, and again to Genie's point, 278 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: how compassionately we connect all of those. We'll say a 279 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: lot about who we are as a country and how 280 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: we can actually move forward globally. And Genie, I under 281 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: stand one of the challenges here is not just writing 282 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: the text of the proposal and all of the details 283 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: beyond the general idea, but actually winning over some of 284 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: the other skeptics. The US was seen as a skeptic. 285 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: I think there are others including uh, the you, the UK, Japan. 286 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: What can the US do? Why why does it matter 287 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: so much when the US says, hey, we support this, 288 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: and how much work is there left to do to 289 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: get everybody else on board. Yeah, and I think Boyd's 290 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: point is really important in terms of your in terms 291 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: of your question, which is that the United States has 292 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: to be a leader on this. This is a tragedy. 293 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: We look at the pictures coming out of Africa and India, 294 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: and we have to be a leader on this. Yes, 295 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: they're intellectual property concerns, but we have to be able 296 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: to solve a pandemic that is destroying the lives and 297 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: the economies of people around the world. United States leadership 298 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: on that is critical. Now. I know the complaint among 299 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: drugmakers is not just entirely focused on money, but on 300 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: productive capacity, arguing that the productive capacity isn't there for 301 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: all of the other countries in the world. Very briefly, Janie, 302 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: do you is that convincing? Why? Why is that argument 303 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: seemingly not working? Well, you know, it's an important thing. 304 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: They have a point to be made, and yet it 305 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: is something I think should be surmounted, and I do 306 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: believe will be surmounted. There is no question this needs 307 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: to be done, and I think the drugmakers understand that. 308 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: When you're talking about a pandemic, well, it seems like 309 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: an issue that we're going to be covering for a 310 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: little while. Coming up, we're gonna have to talk about 311 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: Liz Cheney and a last staphonic, the battle to be 312 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: House Republican Conference Chair. How the the party follows former 313 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: President Donald Trump. I'm Jack Fitzpatrick. This is Bloomberg Now. 314 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: Representative Liz Cheney's position as House Republican Conference Chair is 315 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: in peril as the Trump loyalists of the party push 316 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: for a lease Staphonic to replace her. There could be 317 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: a vote in the House Publican Conference later actually next week. Uh. 318 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: This is the third ranking spot among House Republicans in 319 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: the leadership position, and we actually heard from Steve Scalise, 320 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: the second ranker House Republican whip UH, saying he supports 321 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: Stephanic to replace Cheney. Now, boyd, I'm I'm curious what 322 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: you make of this if we have a vote next 323 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: week between Cheney and Stephanic. First, just can you tee 324 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: it up for me? What's it looking like? Does Cheney 325 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: even have a chance anymore? Well, remember they did try 326 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: to take Liz Cheney out earlier in the year, and 327 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: it does require a two thirds vote of the Republican 328 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: Conference that they were unable to clear that bar. The 329 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: first round, they didn't have anyone specific they were sort 330 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: of pushing to replace her. So it seems that the leadership, 331 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: starting with Kevin McCarthy, is saying, hey, if we have 332 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: someone to put up against Liz Cheney as a replacement, 333 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: maybe that changes the dynamic in terms of accounting and 334 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: getting into two thirds. It's also interesting to see how 335 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: they will make that case, because the case that will 336 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: have to be made is going to have to be 337 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: about personality and politicians and not Republican principles or policy. 338 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: Because if you if you go to the board, in 339 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: terms of numbers, uh, Liz Cheney voted with President Trump's 340 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: policy of the time, well above representatives to Fanik, who 341 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: only voted with the President about seventy seven percent of 342 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: the time. So the argument's going to get really interesting, 343 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: and of course those conversations inside the Republican conference we'll 344 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: get rather chaotic, and that will be interesting to see 345 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: how they do that coming up next week. Now this 346 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: has has made pretty big news. We actually heard a 347 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: bit of a hot mic comment on this from Kevin McCarthy, 348 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: the House Republican leadership in audio that was obtained by 349 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: the Daily caller. Let's play the sound on that. She's 350 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: got real problems. I've had it with I've had it 351 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: with her. Let's you know, I've lost offidence. Yikes. Uh, 352 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: that's pretty significant. And actually that's got a comment today 353 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: from the President President Biden being asked about what does 354 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: this mean for the Republican Party if somebody like Liz 355 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: Cheney can't keep a leadership position. Let's play the sounds. 356 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: The Republican Party is trying to identify what it stands for, 357 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: and they're in the midst of significant sort of mini 358 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: revolution going on the Republican Party. Um, I've been a 359 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: Democrat for a long time. We've gone through periods, We've 360 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: had internal fights and disagreements. Don't ever remember any like this. 361 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: And so as one of you said, no, not embarrassed 362 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: by identifying them, it's one of you said on national 363 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: television last night, we badly need a Republican Party. We 364 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: need a two party system. It's not healthy to have 365 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: a one party system. And I think the Republicans are 366 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: further away from trying to figure out who they are 367 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: and what they stand for than I thought there would 368 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: be at this point now. That line on figuring out 369 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: who they are and what they stand for. I do 370 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: find interesting because to Boyd's point, Uh, this isn't purely 371 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: about conservative ideology. This has centered around Trump. Cheney obviously 372 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: having been very very critical about Trump's comments leading up 373 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: to the January six riot at the Capitol, Stefonic meanwhile, 374 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: standing by him. I was looking this up earlier. Today 375 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: you look at these two, uh, the lifetime scores by 376 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: the very conservative Club for Growth Cheney, stefanict Pent and 377 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: yet Stefanic is the one who seems to be getting 378 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: more and more support among those you'd call a hardline 379 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: conservative genie. What does that mean? I mean, is this 380 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: a party that is still figuring out its own ideology 381 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: or what do you take away from this when you 382 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: see a push toward at least Stefanic, who you know, 383 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: a few years ago you'd call her a moderate, although 384 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: apparently not anymore. Well, she does, she lives, um, I'm 385 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: very close to her district. She's in a very moderate 386 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: district in New York versus obviously Liz Cheney, who's in 387 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: you know, very red Wyoming. And you and Boyd aer 388 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: absolutely right. Any of these trackings from the Heritage Group 389 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: to the Conservative Political Action Conference. They all give Cheney's 390 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: Cheney much, you know, more conservative ratings and much she's 391 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: been much more supportive of Donald Trump. Actually, when you 392 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: look at it legislatively, Van has at least stephonic. But 393 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: I think what this really speaks to is where the 394 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: Republicans see money coming from as we move towards two. 395 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: And I don't think we can forget that. They believe 396 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy believes that he is going to be potentially 397 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: Speaker of the House and they can potentially pick up 398 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: the House if we look at what happened in the census, 399 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: if we look at you know, where the party, how 400 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: well the party did over the weekend in Texas and 401 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: other signs. They see this possibility and they believe that 402 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: they are going to need a lot of funding from 403 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: these districts where Donald Trump is very, very popular. We 404 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: saw that with Mitt Romney out in Utah over the 405 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: weekend again, So I think this has a lot to 406 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: do with money. And I don't think Kevin McCarthy, I 407 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: don't believe he was caught on a hot mike. I 408 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: don't know what you think, Jack and Boyd, but I 409 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: think he knew he was Mike, and I think he 410 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: knew that was going to leak. So closing this out, 411 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: here's a quick one, Boyd. If that's the case, if 412 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: the money is behind Trump and not even in a 413 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 1: conservative sense, what what happened to the Tea Party? Yeah? One, 414 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: just a Genie's point. Every Mike is an open mic 415 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: and Kevin McCarthy knows that better than anybody. So there 416 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: was no question that was an intentional move there In 417 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: terms of that Mike moment, so to speak. I do 418 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: think the interesting thing as as it relates to the money, Uh, 419 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: it's very fascinating. It's an interesting calculation by Kevin McCarthy 420 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: because he's really going back to ten and to your 421 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: point in terms of the Tea Party, and that is 422 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: can you raise money and can you be a counter 423 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: with a grievance message? Um? And it's one of those 424 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: I thought President Biden was absolutely right that the Republican 425 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: Party is trying to sort out who they are. They 426 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: know what they're again, but it ordered justice day. In 427 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: winning elections, the American people have to know what you're for, 428 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: and I don't think the Republicans have defined that yet. 429 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: Boyd mathieson thank you so much for joining us today. 430 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: Coming up, we're gonna have to talk about this SpaceX 431 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: launch that's going to be exciting, and there's more news 432 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: on the debt limit. I'm Jack, that's Patrick. This is Bloomberg. 433 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. Sound on on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jack 434 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: Fitzpatrick here as often with Jennie schanzain O, Bloomberg Politics contributor. 435 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: And we've also now got Keeth Cowing with us, an astrobiologist, 436 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: a former NASA employee, the editor of the American space 437 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: program blog NASA Watch, and we want to talk to 438 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: him because we're watching to see if SpaceX in the 439 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: next few minutes or at least sometime soon, goes ahead 440 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: with their starship test launch on the s N fifteen, 441 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: the new version of what SpaceX is trying to work with. 442 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: Very happy to have you on with us. Keith. Uh, First, 443 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: can you walk us through what exactly is the goal 444 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: for this one? I know a previous iteration crashed. What 445 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: are they what are they trying to try out here 446 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: with the s N fifteen, and what should we be 447 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: looking for? Well, in a word, Uh, the goal this 448 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,239 Speaker 1: flight is to not cash as well, you know, think 449 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: The thing is that this this program is a rapid development. 450 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: These things cost far less than an airliner each one, 451 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: so they can afford to be a little sporty with 452 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: these things. But the idea is to get it so 453 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: that you can get it back in one piece and 454 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: then we use it, so that hopefully is what will 455 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: happen today. Otherwise they'll just add it to the blooper 456 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: reel of things that almost happened. And what what a 457 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: exactly are they going to use this one for? I 458 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: believe there are differences between the last iteration if if 459 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: you're working on something, obviously you don't want it to crash, 460 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: But say this goes, well, what is SpaceX going to 461 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: use this particular kind of space vehicle, their their starship 462 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 1: as they call it, for in the future. Well, let 463 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: you see, if you're watching it on YouTube, you see 464 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: the upper stage. There's a bigger rocket underneath it, and 465 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: the idea is that you'll have a very cheap and 466 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: reusable rocket. The first stage will come back and land 467 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: like SpaceX does, and the other part will go into orbit, 468 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: and eventually the same design will be used to land 469 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: in the moon and eventually you listen to elon musk 470 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: sales pitch to take people to marrows. But the idea 471 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: at first is to make sure again that this thing 472 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: has the ability to fly and land and fly and 473 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: land and fly and land, and so what you know, 474 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 1: this I understand this is a fairly large craft. And 475 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: as always, the interesting part of what SpaceX is doing 476 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: is landing. As you said, what are the challenges with 477 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: this kind of craft? Is it too large to land? 478 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: Is that one of the challenges they face it. What 479 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: are your thoughts on the challenges of a larger craft, 480 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: not just tumbling back to Earth but actually a controlled landing. Well, 481 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: SpaceX has got the landing big thing down pat with 482 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: the falconline rockets. This is a larger vehicle. And what 483 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: you've noticed if you watch these things come in is 484 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: they I almost get down to the bottom. It's the 485 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: last few seconds of how you fire the engine, how 486 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: you aim the rocket and so forth, And that's kind 487 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: of like playing with the dials a little bit. And 488 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: every time they try this they learned something from the 489 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: last one. So eventually at some point you get it right. 490 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: But you know, it is rocket science. It is hard, 491 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: and you know you lose rockets in the process. Of 492 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: getting rockets that you could reuse. So, Keith, let me 493 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: ask you, as Elon Muska, we guess prepares for Saturday 494 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: Night Live this weekend. He has also said recently that 495 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: they will be be for human flight in two years. 496 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: Do you agree with that assessment? Are they on track 497 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: for two years to put humans into space? Well, first 498 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: of all, they're launching. They just a few days ago 499 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: launched four people up to the International Space Station in 500 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: their Dragon spacecraft. As far as the starship goes, and 501 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: if you launs just two years, maybe a year and 502 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: a half, maybe two and a half years. Sometimes his 503 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: his milestones drift a bit, but he always does what 504 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: he says he's gonna do. And so yeah, yeah, I'd 505 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: just like to see people flying in one of these 506 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: things with did a couple of years. So I'm curious. 507 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: It sounds like, you know, as you said, they tinker 508 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: with this stuff and these are cheaper enough, relatively speaking, 509 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: so that they can get a little daring with this. 510 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: What happens if it goes badly today? Do we see 511 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: you know, should traders be nervous? Is that really bad 512 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: news for Tesla? Or if if this goes badly, is 513 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: that just well we'll try again. Well, first of all, 514 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: it's cheap. And if you attention, like a lot of 515 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,239 Speaker 1: us rocket words do uh usually if it see the 516 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: next one, that they'll launch like a few feet away. 517 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: So if they lose this one, they just roll the 518 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: next one in. Because these things are extremely I mean 519 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: they're using you know, the guys who make water tanks 520 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: to weld these things together. So this is not your 521 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: father's rocket, so to speak. But I if I were, 522 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, looking at whether I should buy or sell 523 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: Tessa stock, I wouldn't be thinking at all about these rockets. 524 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: You know, if I could throw out a question that's 525 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: not totally related, but if we have a NASA A 526 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: former NASA employee on I was speaking recently to actually 527 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: the lawmaker who runs the appropriation subcommittee for NASA who 528 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: was talking, and I believe a number of Democrats agree 529 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: that when President Trump pushed for a moon landing by 530 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: four that was politicized, that was way too fast. He 531 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: must be doing it because he wants, during what he 532 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: thought would be his second term, to claim that as 533 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: a big political victory. I'm curious, if you've been watching, 534 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: do you do you have thoughts on is it feasibly possible? 535 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: Are they cutting corners? If NASA tries to get human 536 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: beings on the moon again by four, well, I wouldn't 537 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: disagree with that law maker's characterization of whatsoever that's said. 538 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: It's sporty, but you know, they made a run at it, 539 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: and it probably won't be twenty four, twenty six or seven. 540 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: I don't think NASA's cutting any corners. NASA's problem is 541 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: that they're you know, they're they're overspending and things are delayed. 542 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: So that's the bigger issue. I'm pretty certain that when 543 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: these things do fly, it'll be safe. But the challenge 544 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: again is you've got almost two different worlds here. You've 545 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: got the SpaceX guys who are rapidly trying to do 546 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: things with chief vehicles, and they watch many of them. 547 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: NASA only is one or two of these big rockets 548 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: that cost billions. And it's so you know, it's a 549 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: classic economics thing. Where do you put the know you 550 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: invested a lot of things and get one right, or 551 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: do you put all your eggs in one basket and 552 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: crush your fingers and hope you get that right. That's 553 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: going on. So if if we're going back to the moon. 554 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: How how much of things changed since nine? They get 555 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: to bring a golf club this time? Uh, you know what, 556 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: I don't know that Elon is a big golf guy. 557 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: I think Bezos is. So if Bezos send something there, 558 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: maybe you'll see a golf club. I don't know, it'll 559 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: probably you know, they'll probably sit there wanting to be 560 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: able to make certain as they can use Twitter. So Keith, 561 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: let me ask you on this Jeff Bezos front. Where 562 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: is Blue Origin and all of this? Obviously he is, 563 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, not won the contract with NASA, But do 564 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: you think they're going to make a real challenge to 565 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: uh to SpaceX. Well, First of all, one of the 566 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: selection criteria, as the government has as an option, is 567 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: that you know, you can't you can't give a contract 568 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: out for money you don't have. And Nansy has not 569 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: gotten the billions that they had expected to. Yet they 570 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: got enough so that they could go to the lowest spinner, 571 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: which was SpaceX, and negotiated deal. Blue Origins prices more 572 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: than twice that of SpaceX is and there's really no 573 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: way that they could have come down unless Pisos, where 574 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: they checked for a couple of billions. But that said, 575 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: I would not kind of just ject ease us out 576 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: at all. Today. As a matter of fact, they had 577 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: an action for seats on his sub orbital flight. And 578 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: you know he's got a big factory in Florida with 579 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: a giant rocket being hidden inside. So you know, you 580 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: may see a lot of all the noise and the 581 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: trash talk coming more from Emon right now, but you 582 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: know it'll it'll, it'll flip over to bees Us at 583 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: some point. So now, Keith, I'm curious about what we've 584 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: heard about this Chinese rocket that's coming down, and they 585 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: don't seem to know exactly where it's going to come down. 586 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: I guess statistically it's likely to hit an ocean more 587 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: so than land. Um, what can you explain to me? 588 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: You know this this is an area where I don't 589 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: even entirely know what. I don't know how unusual it 590 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: is it for something to down, uh and to have 591 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: such little idea of where exactly it's going to come 592 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,239 Speaker 1: to come down? And what does that do to you know, 593 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: international politics when you toss it up and are not 594 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: exactly sure where it's going to come down. Well, these days, 595 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: you know it's not unusual that you don't know exactly 596 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: when something that's going to come in, but there's a 597 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: science to it, and that usually means that you can 598 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: watch it as it comes in, you know, lower and lower. 599 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: The problem is that this long launch five, the first stage, 600 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: it's twenty two point five metric tons. It's the size 601 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: of what you if you're looking at the live feed 602 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: from SpaceX. It's that big. And they did not include 603 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: uh rockets, and it's two other things that other countries 604 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: do put in that would stabilize this, so it would 605 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: just sort of glide in. Right now, it's tumbling. When 606 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: things tumble in space like that and they're coming back 607 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: to Earth, it's very difficult to predict exactly where they'll 608 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: come in. And the last time one of these long 609 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: launch fives went up, they was the same issue and 610 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: it crashed into the Ivory Coast and hit a couple 611 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: of villages. Luckily nobody was hurt, but houses and businesses 612 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: were affected. So, you know, it would probably be incumbent 613 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: on China in the future to add a few of 614 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: these gismos so that they can be a little more 615 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: precise and where the stage will come back, such they 616 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: can give people advanced notice. Is there anything we can 617 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: do at this point or do you get to the 618 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: point of no return and you're just gotta gotta watch 619 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: it come down and try to be as careful as possible, 620 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: or is there is some Uh I don't know if 621 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: you can intercept this stuff. But what do we do now? Well, 622 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, they'll have an idea within a few hours 623 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,479 Speaker 1: of when it's going to command, so if it looks 624 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 1: like it's gonna hit some populated area, they'll know. But again, 625 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, you know most of the your surfaces water, 626 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: and statistically speaking, the chances of its hitting anybody are 627 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: low there, not zero, But you know a lot of 628 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: people are watching this, so I don't think anybody's going 629 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: to be surprised where it comes in when it does commit. Right, 630 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: Keith Cowing, thank you so much for joining us astrobiologist, 631 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: former NASA employee. Great to have you on UH. And 632 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: again thank you earlier to Boyd Matheson, who's a former 633 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: chief of staff to Senator Mike Lee. Big big newsday 634 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: for Rassinco de Mayo, Poor yourself Tequila at the end 635 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: of this one, and of course Jeanie Schanzano Bloomberg Politics contributor. 636 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. That's all for me. Thanks 637 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: for listening. I'm Jack Fitzpatrick. This is Bloomberg