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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you

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Speaker 2: Should Know, the Big Bummer Edition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not very joky, because we're talking about fentanyl.

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Speaker 2: And.

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Speaker 1: While a great pain killer, a very effective painkiller, it

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Speaker 1: has sadly become the most deadly street drug in the

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Speaker 1: United States. And we're going to tell you how that happened.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but there's slight silver lining. It is possible that

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Speaker 2: it is so deadly and so dangerous that it's actually

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Speaker 2: created a decline in its use. At the very least

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Speaker 2: a decline in deaths from it has taken place. So

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Speaker 2: it is on the decline at least deaths, and we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about possibly why that is later on. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about the origin of fentanyl. For those of

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Speaker 2: you who don't know, it's a synthetic opioid. First, there

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Speaker 2: was morphine, which is I think basically one hundred percent

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Speaker 2: processed natural opium. Heroin is a kind of a combo

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Speaker 2: hybrid between synthetic and natural, and then fentanyl is just

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Speaker 2: straight up like a like it just made up. It's

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Speaker 2: an analog and it's way more potent than anything anyone

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Speaker 2: had ever seen before when it came on the scene.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like a hundred times more potent than morphine, fifty

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Speaker 1: times more potent than heroin. Created by a gentleman named

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Speaker 1: Paul Janson of the Jansen Company in Belgium, and it

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Speaker 1: was originally developed as an intravenous anesthetic, like for surgery.

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Speaker 1: And they started out with a synthetic opioid as the

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Speaker 1: base called my paradine I guess, and that was developed

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties. And so they had this sort

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Speaker 1: of my paradiine as the base. They change it around

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Speaker 1: a little, I'll alter the chemical structure a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because what they wanted was something that had fewer negative

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Speaker 1: side effects, something that was safer to use, and they

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Speaker 1: were able to do that with fentanyl. I mean it,

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Speaker 1: you know, initially worked great. It was had a very

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Speaker 1: fast onset, had a very high therapeutic index, which is

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Speaker 1: how they measure like the ratio between how effective a

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Speaker 1: dose is and how how you could get to a

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Speaker 1: toxic dose. So if you've got a high number and

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Speaker 1: a greater difference, then that's good.

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Speaker 2: Right, And one of the things. I just want to

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Speaker 2: say that they messed around with molecularly to make fentanyl.

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Speaker 2: They increased its fat solubility, which sounds like who cares,

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Speaker 2: But that has two really important effects that make fetanyl

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Speaker 2: what it is. One, it allows the drug to cross

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Speaker 2: the blood brain barrier faster, which means fentanyl has a

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Speaker 2: much faster onset than heroin or morphine. Right, it just

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Speaker 2: hits you much fast, and then it crosses back through

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Speaker 2: the blood brain barrier more quickly, so the duration of

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Speaker 2: the high that you get lasts a shorter time. So

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Speaker 2: just that one little tweak fat solubility made this drug

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Speaker 2: what it is, because faster onset makes it addictive. Shorter

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Speaker 2: duration means that you need to do more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I don't think I've mentioned, but it

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Speaker 1: was nineteen sixty was when it first came on the scene.

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Speaker 1: Europe starting using it in sixty three. Came to the

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Speaker 1: US in sixty eight and approved by the FDA only

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Speaker 1: by combining it with a tranquilizing drug called draperidol, because

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Speaker 1: they said, you know that combination makes it even a

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Speaker 1: lower potential for abuse, so you have to use it

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Speaker 1: with that. But over time, that kind of waned, and

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Speaker 1: those limitations were lifted little by little until we got

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Speaker 1: to the mid nineteen eighties when they had, you know,

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Speaker 1: cheaper generic versions available, and it was pretty commonly used

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Speaker 1: in surgery, like post surgical recovery with like skin patches

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Speaker 1: and lozenges and stuff like that for pain management.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think still today it's the most common opioid

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Speaker 2: used for anesthesia during surgery. And that just sounds like

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Speaker 2: madness when you're familiar with fentanyl, the street version, but

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Speaker 2: in the hands of like a really well trained anesthesiologist

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Speaker 2: with hospital great equipment, it's actually very safe. It's the

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Speaker 2: fact that the stuff that you buy in the street

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Speaker 2: has a very uneven like dosages means that's why it's

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Speaker 2: just so deadly because you're not a trained anesthesiologist, you're

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Speaker 2: not using hospital grade equipment. You're shooting up something that

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Speaker 2: some dude sold you, and it's just it's just not

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Speaker 2: trustworthy and it can kill you because it takes such

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Speaker 2: a small amount to create a toxic dose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it will produce relaxation, feelings, pleasure, sleepiness. You can

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Speaker 1: also get nauseous, dizziness, confusion, vomiting, uritary retention, breathing issues,

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Speaker 1: as we'll see later on. That's you know, basically why

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Speaker 1: you usually od, it's because of breathing issues, and besides

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Speaker 1: the overdose risk, which is great, you could also have

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Speaker 1: a heart attack, heart failure, mood disorders, immune system problems.

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Speaker 1: For all these reasons. It's a schedule two narcotic with

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Speaker 1: a high potential for abuse.

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Speaker 2: Just a reminder marijuana's Schedule one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And most of what we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about is sort of the illegal, illicitly produced market.

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Speaker 1: But there are fentanyl users that do get like the

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Speaker 1: real stuff from I'm not sure how they get it,

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Speaker 1: whatever connection they have, and they'll just have to you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not like in a pill or a powder, so

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Speaker 1: it'll be like a patch or something that they might

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Speaker 1: freeze and hold in their mouth, or they might remove

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Speaker 1: the gel and then eat it or inject it or

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Speaker 1: something like that. But usually what we're talking about, the

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Speaker 1: really dangerous stuff is the powders and the pills that

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Speaker 1: are being made illegally and either brought into this country

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Speaker 1: or being made in this country, but usually brought into

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Speaker 1: this country.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and there's different kinds of different analogs of fentanyl

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Speaker 2: that everybody just kind of puts under the umbrella of

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Speaker 2: fentanyl when you're talking about illicit fentanyl. But two of

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Speaker 2: them that stand out that aren't actually illicit, but they're

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Speaker 2: used in the drug market as car fetanyl, which is

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Speaker 2: used there's no use for it in humans. They use

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Speaker 2: it to sedate rhinoceroses and elephants, and I think it's

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Speaker 2: something like ten thousand times more potent than morphine. You

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Speaker 2: can get that on the street apparently, although I think

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Speaker 2: it's fairly rare. And then sue feentanyl is five to

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Speaker 2: ten times stronger than fentanyl. So if you like people

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Speaker 2: aren't like it's car fetanyl or sue fentanyl, you're talking

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Speaker 2: about fentanyl.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the same exact

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Speaker 1: chemical structure. It's just sort of a catch all like pitbull, sure,

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Speaker 1: the singer no no, no pitbull the dog breed, which

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Speaker 1: isn't really a dog breed.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all kinds of terriers that people just call pitbulls.

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Speaker 2: Well, speaking of umbrella terms in different names, I think

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Speaker 2: we should talk about some of the names. The DEA

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Speaker 2: says that this is called and the only one I

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Speaker 2: could corroborate is the last.

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Speaker 1: One, Tango and cash.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so apparently that's fetanyl and cocaine mixed together, and

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Speaker 2: or fetanyl and methamphetamine some sort of speed that's a speedball,

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Speaker 2: And as we'll see, that's actually proving to be a

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Speaker 2: really big problem that's created like a new wave of

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Speaker 2: opioid deaths.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, speaking of waves, there have kind of been three,

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Speaker 1: and this is just sort of an overview of the

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Speaker 1: opioid addiction crisis in the US that's been going on

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Speaker 1: for you know, ten fifteen years. The first wave was

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, and that's when you got prescription opioids

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Speaker 1: from your doctor. Those really rose dramatically because they do

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Speaker 1: a really good job. But that's also you know, in

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Speaker 1: lockstep with fatal opioid overdoses. They doubled between ninety nine

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Speaker 1: and twenty ten. And twenty ten was when things started

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Speaker 1: to change for a second wave because the government was like,

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Speaker 1: you can't be writing all these prescriptions like this to

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Speaker 1: doctors and to manufacturers, like you got to change your formulas,

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Speaker 1: Like this stuff is way too readily abuse, So you

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Speaker 1: got to do something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is really well portrayed in the limited

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Speaker 2: series Dope Sick. I can't remember if it was on HBO.

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Speaker 2: I want to say you saw it right now.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see that.

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Speaker 2: Oh man. It is really good, but it's about the

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Speaker 2: Sackler family and Purdue Pharma essentially purposely hooking America on

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Speaker 2: oxy contin. Yeah, and it's a really good series that

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Speaker 2: just punches you in the gut. But it's really well

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Speaker 2: done and it covers all that period. The problem was

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Speaker 2: this is covered a little bit too towards the end.

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Speaker 2: When you take people's OxyContin away and they're hooked on

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Speaker 2: OxyContin and opioid, they're going to a lot of them

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Speaker 2: are at least turned to whatever opioids are available, and

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Speaker 2: that meant that a lot of people who otherwise would

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Speaker 2: have never tried heroin took up heroin because they couldn't

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Speaker 2: get OxyContin anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was the second wave, and fatal overdoses

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Speaker 1: of heroin because of that largely quadruple between twenty two

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Speaker 1: and twenty thirteen. The third wave is the one we're

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Speaker 1: kind of mainly going to be talking about that started

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Speaker 1: in about twenty thirteen and mainly centers around illegally illicitly

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Speaker 1: produced fentanyl and all the various harmful ways that can

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Speaker 1: find your way into your body, even sometimes even if

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Speaker 1: you don't want to be taking fentanyl.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, So that third wave, the fentanyl opioid death

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Speaker 2: wave or fentanyl driven wave, that is that vastly outstrips

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Speaker 2: the death rate from the first two waves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I think in nineteen ninety nine, so this is

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Speaker 2: when people are starting to take opioid prescriptions, there were

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Speaker 2: two opioid overdose deaths per one hundred thousand people in

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Speaker 2: the United States. Yeah, that was nineteen ninety nine. Twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 2: the second wave is going on, that was up to eight.

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Speaker 2: By twenty twenty two, when the third wave is in

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Speaker 2: full swing, it was twenty five people per one hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand people in the United States that were dying of

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Speaker 2: overdose deaths from fentanyl.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. In twenty twenty two, deaths from fentanyl alone were

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Speaker 1: seventy six two hundred and twenty six people, or sixty

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Speaker 1: nine percent of total overdose deaths and ninety percent of

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Speaker 1: the opioid overdose deaths.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Apparently it was the problem.

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Speaker 2: For sure, And apparently I was like, well, what else

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Speaker 2: is anybody oding on? And it seems that meth has

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Speaker 2: created a new epidemic of overdose deaths that everybody's like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell's going on?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Fintanel has hit such a high that it's

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Speaker 1: actually had a real impact on US life expectancy. It

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Speaker 1: takes a lot to change a number like that, but

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Speaker 1: Fintanel seems to have done it. And twenty twenty two

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Speaker 1: only opioid related deaths resulted in three point one million

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Speaker 1: years of lost life because a lot of these users

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Speaker 1: are young. And if you ode it twenty two, they

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Speaker 1: calculate the average lifespan and do the subtraction and that's

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Speaker 1: your number. So that you know, a lot of middle

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Speaker 1: age white people without a college degree are the victims.

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Speaker 1: So much so, and this is startling. But from that class,

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Speaker 1: middle aged white people without a college degree, they are

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Speaker 1: dying earlier on average than their parents did. Yes, that's

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Speaker 1: not how it's supposed to work.

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Speaker 2: That's just not how it has worked, unless the United

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Speaker 2: States is at war essentially. Yeah, and you know, we're

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Speaker 2: talking a lot about the US, but the UK and

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Speaker 2: Europe sorry, UK tracks fairly closely. Although the numbers are lower.

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Speaker 2: It seems to be following like a similar pattern. Although

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Speaker 2: I think in some countries. I think estonia is one

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Speaker 2: of them. Like you can't even get heroin anymore, everybody's

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Speaker 2: just doing fatanmol. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's the deal though, is researchers have looked at

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Speaker 1: these numbers. I think they declared this a public health

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Speaker 1: emergency in twenty seventeen, and what they're finding is, and

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Speaker 1: this has been coroberated from other surveys and you know,

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Speaker 1: metadata studies and stuff, is there aren't more overdose deaths

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Speaker 1: because more people are using it. It's not just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: well more people are doing it, so more people are dying.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's because this stuff is more dangerous,

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Speaker 1: it's getting in places that it shouldn't get because usage

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Speaker 1: has actually declined some over the past like eight years, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the first two waves were driven by

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Speaker 2: larger numbers increases in people using prescription opioids and then heroin,

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Speaker 2: so that accounted for it. But when fentanyl came on

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Speaker 2: the scene, yeah, people stopped using it as much, but

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Speaker 2: their deaths just increased, which if you look at it

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Speaker 2: from just an outside perspective, like it's just because it's

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Speaker 2: so potent and it was rolled out or introduced to

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Speaker 2: the drug supply in a really horrific way, as we'll see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. It also sort of goes in lockstep

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Speaker 1: with the income disparity in the United States and the

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Speaker 1: client in fortunes for a lot of people in this country.

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Speaker 1: Overdosing is basically what they call it is a disease

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Speaker 1: of despair. When people are destitute and when they're down

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Speaker 1: or depressed or having really hard times. A lot of

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Speaker 1: times drugs can be a distraction or if you are

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Speaker 1: a casual drug user, it could get worse during that time.

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Speaker 1: And they found in twenty seventeen they study counties in

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Speaker 1: the US and found that those with the lowest social capital,

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Speaker 1: meaning networks that can help people, you know, with financial

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Speaker 1: security and achieving goals, they had the highest rate of overdose.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so social capital is basically the size of your

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Speaker 2: local Kowanas chapter.

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Speaker 1: I knew you'd get a joke in theres.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, this is I mean, like this whole thing

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Speaker 2: kind of rose and lockstep. Opioid overdose sets rose and

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Speaker 2: lockstep with these financial crisis that the US found itself

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Speaker 2: in over and over again since two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 2: Job loss, aws of manufacturing jobs just all of the

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Speaker 2: hardship that the United States has gone through since then,

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Speaker 2: opioid debts kind of tracked with it, especially at first,

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Speaker 2: especially with people basically more people turning to that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing as a disease of despair, which is just sad.

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Speaker 2: It's just nuts that that's that you can kind of

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Speaker 2: connect those two things.

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Speaker 1: Should we take a break? Yeah, all right, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: take a break, and we're gonna talk about the rise

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Speaker 1: of fentanyl right after this. It's stuffish. So one reason

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Speaker 1: we've seen a surge in overdoses for something like this

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Speaker 1: is something called the iron law prohibition that was coined

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six by an economist named Richard Cowan,

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Speaker 1: and it's basically saying that, hey, if you ban something

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Speaker 1: that people like doing, something's going to come along, and

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Speaker 1: it's probably going to be a stronger version. The reason

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Speaker 1: they call it the law prohibition is because that's what

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Speaker 1: happened when people were like, all right, you're going to

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Speaker 1: take our beer, We're going to start making gin and

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Speaker 1: our bathtubs and moonshine out in the woods, and the

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Speaker 1: rise of crack in the nineteen eighties the same thing,

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Speaker 1: and they're basically saying fentanyl is basically the same deal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and not only more potent, but the fact that

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Speaker 2: it's more potent means that less of it can generate

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Speaker 2: just as much cash, which also means it's easier to

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Speaker 2: smuggle too. And like you said, fentanyl tracks exactly the

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Speaker 2: same way. It's really easy to make. I mean apparently

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Speaker 2: you just basically, if you have the precursor chemicals, you're

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Speaker 2: just making a stew in a pot that you're stirring,

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Speaker 2: You dry it out, and there you got a bunch

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Speaker 2: of fentanyl. So it's easy to make. You don't require

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Speaker 2: tons and tons of agricultural workers and tons and tons

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Speaker 2: of acreage to grow poppies that you process into heroin.

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Speaker 2: And because the potency is so much more, there is

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Speaker 2: a huge cost benefit. Apparently it just accrues to the dealers.

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Speaker 2: Though there was a study in the journal Addiction from

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty that basically wanted to find out why was

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Speaker 2: fentanyl introduced. Was it users who are like, Hey, heroin's great,

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Speaker 2: but we need something way deadlier? Was it dealers who

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Speaker 2: are like, hey, heroin's great, but this stuff I can

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Speaker 2: cut heroin with and like, I'll make a lot more

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Speaker 2: money or was it a combination of the two. They

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Speaker 2: didn't say definitively, but they made a pretty good case

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Speaker 2: that it does seem to have been the dealers looking

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Speaker 2: to cut costs because those costs or those savings weren't

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Speaker 2: passed on to users.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like, hey, this, we're making the drugs

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Speaker 1: cheaper now, so we're just going to give you a

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Speaker 1: break this. There was one study that found between twenty

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Speaker 1: thirteen and twenty twenty one, the percentage of heroin that

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Speaker 1: had fentanyl rows from less than one percent to forty

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Speaker 1: percent over what is that eight years? And of course

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Speaker 1: it's going to lead to a huge number of overdoses

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Speaker 1: because a you've got these batches that are coming out

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Speaker 1: that the you know, the potency has got a pretty

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Speaker 1: dramatic range from one batch to another sometimes. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then people you know, for a long time, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, the word is finally out now and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about that a little bit later. But

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Speaker 1: people that were heroin users thought they were getting heroin

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Speaker 1: and knew how much heroin to take safely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And one reason why is because these dealers were saying,

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Speaker 2: if I sell you heroin mixed with fentanyl, I have

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Speaker 2: to use less heroin because it's going to be just

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Speaker 2: a potent or more potent. But I can charge you

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Speaker 2: heroin prices even though I'm paying way less for the

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Speaker 2: fentanyl that I'm using here. And yeah, people were caught

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Speaker 2: by some prize. The fact that it was duplicitous is

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Speaker 2: just awful because it's like, hey, good luck getting acclimated

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Speaker 2: to this there. It's gonna be a rough transition. But

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Speaker 2: if you look at it from a business standpoint, the

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Speaker 2: rollout of fentanyl into the American and European drug supplies,

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Speaker 2: it had terrible marketing, like it had zero marketing. It

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Speaker 2: was just all of a sudden there people started dying

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Speaker 2: and it took the authorities investigating what the heck was

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Speaker 2: going on for people to figure out that it was fentanyl.

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Speaker 2: That's how it was introduced. It was just so reckless.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm talking about heroin dealers being even more

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Speaker 2: reckless than they normally are. That's what happened with fentanyl

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Speaker 2: being introduced. It just suddenly popped up. No one said

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Speaker 2: anything about it first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and by the way, when I said safely do heroin,

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Speaker 1: I'm hope unclear than that there's doing heroin is never safe.

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Speaker 1: I just met heroin users would know how much they

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Speaker 1: can take without overdosing, right, yeah, okay, I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to make sure people do what I was.

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Speaker 2: I think that was worth mentioning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, good. So the other you know, problems with

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Speaker 1: ventanyl is that it has a really intense rush when

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Speaker 1: it's first used. Apparently it's more of a head rush

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Speaker 1: than a body rush, so it can be a little

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Speaker 1: more you can be a little more active as a

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Speaker 1: user than maybe doing heroin and just like passing out

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Speaker 1: on your couch for hours and hours. It's also dangerous

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Speaker 1: because the high is only an hour or two, so uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, heroin high lasts longer, so that short duration

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Speaker 1: is gonna you know, have people using more frequently, and

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Speaker 1: every time you use ventyl it's just another chance to overdose. Basically.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a great point. Yeah, and that has to

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Speaker 2: do with that fat solubility. Again, I said it before

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Speaker 2: and I'll say it again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it can happen like a fentanyl overdose

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Speaker 1: can happen in seconds, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because the onset is so quick, which makes it

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Speaker 2: that's another reason that it's so deadly too, is you

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Speaker 2: don't have time to be like, oh man, there's frau

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Speaker 2: through on my buddy's mouth. I better call nine one

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Speaker 2: one because there's good Samaritan laws in my state. It's like,

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Speaker 2: oh my buddy just injected fentanyl and now they're dead.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's not that fast necessarily, but compared

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Speaker 2: to heroin, it is. And yeah, I think it's measured

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Speaker 2: in like seconds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly can be. Another thing that makes it

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Speaker 1: more deadly is that people started changing how they used it.

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Speaker 1: Among people who died from illegal fentanyl overdoses, the portion

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Speaker 1: who injected dropped forty two percent over just a two

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Speaker 1: year period between twenty and twenty twenty two, and they

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Speaker 1: generally started smoking it that jumped to seventy nine percent.

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Speaker 1: I believe people also can snort the powder, but just

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Speaker 1: the fact that people aren't injecting it as much kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, if you connect the dots, somebody might

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Speaker 1: dive into using it a little quicker, if they're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: just snort this thing instead of hey, shoot up this thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's a big barrier for a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who are like I like drugs, but I'm not

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Speaker 2: gonna stick a needle in my arm. That just seems

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Speaker 2: like such a a horrible road to go down that

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Speaker 2: it will give people second thoughts. But smoking something geez,

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Speaker 2: I like marijuana, I like smoking crack, I might as

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Speaker 2: well try smoking fentanyl. It's just much less of a

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Speaker 2: barrier to overcome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you're smoking it or snorting it, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't stay in your body as long as if you

385
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Speaker 1: shoot it, so again, just another case of it wears

386
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Speaker 1: off quicker and you're gonna want to use it again,

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Speaker 1: and that's just another overdose opportunity.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean it's crazy if you think about it,

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Speaker 2: because most other drugs that you smoke you could conceivably

390
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Speaker 2: overdose on. But fentanyl, even though you're smoking it and

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Speaker 2: not injecting it, there's still a really good chance that

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Speaker 2: you could overdose and die from just smoking it. That's

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Speaker 2: kind of mind boggling, but it's accurate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, we're talking about smoking it and

395
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Speaker 1: snorting it and like powder and a bad kind of stuff.

396
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Speaker 1: But the real danger now, and the real problem all

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Speaker 1: of it is, of course, but the real, real scary

398
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Speaker 1: thing is the fact that these are generally sold and

399
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Speaker 1: the us CAS's pills. I think by late twenty twenty one,

400
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Speaker 1: more than a quarter of the fentanyl seized was in

401
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Speaker 1: pill form, And a lot of these pills are they

402
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Speaker 1: look like something else. You hear stories on the news

403
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Speaker 1: about a kid that did not want to take fentanyl,

404
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Speaker 1: that thought they were taking something else and it ended

405
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Speaker 1: up being either laced with fentanyl or largely fentanyl, and

406
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Speaker 1: they overdose without even knowing they took it.

407
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's kind of hard to wrap your head around,

408
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Speaker 2: like why would somebody send you that? Like how evil

409
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Speaker 2: could you be? But apparently fentanyl pills are very frequently

410
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Speaker 2: created to look like old OxyContin what are called M thirty's,

411
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Speaker 2: So it would be very easy for something to be like,

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Speaker 2: oh cool, here's an OxyContin. Fentanyl users know what they're doing.

413
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Speaker 2: But if you didn't, we're in a fentanyl user and

414
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Speaker 2: you just wanted an oxy contin. That's how you could

415
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Speaker 2: die of an overdose fairly quickly. And those are, like

416
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Speaker 2: you said, those are the stories that you hear on

417
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Speaker 2: the news. I don't think it's a very frequent thing,

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Speaker 2: but when it does happen, it's just horrific.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Or if you say you want to

420
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Speaker 1: use some cocaine. You're like, Hey, that's my thing. Do

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Speaker 1: it every now and then on a Saturday night, I'm

422
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Speaker 1: going to get some of that stuff. For the same reasons,

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Speaker 1: Heroin is cut with ventyl. Cocaine can be as well,

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Speaker 1: So that's not even the same kind of high. You're

425
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Speaker 1: looking for cocaine. You may never in your life have

426
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Speaker 1: taken anything like morphine or heroine, and all of a

427
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: sudden you're snorting fentanyl without knowing it and you're on

428
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Speaker 1: the floor.

429
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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a reminder, speedballs are what killed not just

430
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Speaker 2: John Belushi, but Chris Farley as well. And apparently this

431
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Speaker 2: is that fourth wave that we were talking about of

432
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: speedball in fentanyl, with cocaine or with meth. And it's

433
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: not just where dealers are cutting it and not telling

434
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 2: their buyers, like buyers are seeking this out. And apparently

435
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 2: this fourth wave has kind of caught black Americans up

436
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: into it more than the other previous waves have.

437
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, all right, Well, I guess we can

438
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about where it comes from. A

439
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: lot of it that smuggled into the US was originally

440
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: made in China, but in twenty nineteen China said you

441
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: cannot produce her sell fitting all anymore, and some people

442
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: stop doing it, but a lot of manufacturers continued doing so,

443
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: sometimes through Legit means that you made it very easy

444
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: to ship, but then they also turned to the black

445
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: market to ship directly to customers in the US and Europe,

446
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: or hey, let's ship the stuff over to Mexico and

447
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: these cartels and they can just kind of put it

448
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: together there and work as the distributor for US.

449
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the cartels are getting these precursors, they're turning

450
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: around and distributing the precursors to cooks who I read

451
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: like a Univision story, so they just I guess we're

452
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: interviewing some random ventanyl cook in Mexico. It was like

453
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: three twenty year olds who were just standing out in

454
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: the woods under a black tarp with a pot on

455
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: top of a fire, just stirring it like it was

456
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: really easy to make. And then that stuff goes back

457
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: to the cartels to smuggle across the border and sell.

458
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another myth we can kind of bust here as

459
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: far as where it comes from, is that in recent years,

460
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: there have been politicians that have tried to link the

461
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: influx of fentanyl in the United States to illegal immigration,

462
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: And there was a poll in twenty twenty two that

463
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: found that forty percent of Americans believed that most ventanyl

464
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: entering the country was being smuggled by illegal immigrants, basically,

465
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: and that's that's not true. The truth is is that

466
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: most of this drug comes through legal points of entry,

467
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: and when it does, it is smuggled in in a

468
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: vehicle driven by US citizens.

469
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, most often American women. And I think the Cato

470
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 2: Institute did a study where they found eighty six point

471
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 2: three percent of convicted fentanyl smugglers are American citizens, So

472
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: that seems to be totally untrue.

473
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, but apparently.

474
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: This is a I think this is a measure of

475
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: how how bad fentanyl is, because I mean, Chuck, we're

476
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: pretty fentanyl naive. I've never done feentanyl. I'm making a

477
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: pretty good assumption that you've never done fetanyl and kept

478
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 2: it a secret from me. So it's entirely possible that

479
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: within this whole thing, we've passed along some myth or

480
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: exaggeration without being aware of it. Yeah, and for that,

481
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. The thing is, it seems that the overall

482
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: theme that fentanyl is incredibly deadly and on a level

483
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: unlike any other drug that's ever hit the US market,

484
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: so much so that it's like, just don't do drugs.

485
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: It's too dangerous because because of the presence of fentanyl.

486
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: I think that holds and I think this supports that thesis.

487
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: In Cineloa, the Cineloa Cartel has a ban on selling

488
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: fentanyl in Sineloa punishable by death. So if you're a

489
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: drug dealer in Cineloa and the Cineloa Cartel catches you

490
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: selling fentanyl in their state in Mexico where they're supplying

491
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,239
Speaker 2: the rest of the world with fentanyl, they'll kill you.

492
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 2: I think that says just about everything you need to

493
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: know about fentanyl.

494
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Should we take another break? All right,

495
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: We'll be back and talk about punishment and harm reduction

496
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: right after this. It's stuff.

497
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: So one of the things that's a little different about

498
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: the fentanyl epidemic is that it hasn't tracked closely or

499
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: identically to pass drug epidemics, where like the crack epidemic

500
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: or the cocaine epidemic, especially of like the nineties, where

501
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: or the eighties or nineties, where if you were caught

502
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: with it, especially if you're black, you're going to prison

503
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: for possibly the rest of your life. This time around,

504
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: it's been a little more there's been a little more

505
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: understanding that this is as much a public health crisis,

506
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: probably more of public health crisis than a crisis to

507
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: be addressed by law enforcement. And one of the more

508
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: cynical reasons why that's probable is because it's largely been

509
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: viewed publicly as a white issue, that it's mostly white

510
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: people who are overdosing and dying from ventanyl.

511
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: Well, let's say this. I don't remember anything growing up

512
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: in the eighties that said, let's help these people addicted

513
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: to crack.

514
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: No, you were just morally reprehensible and your kid was

515
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: probably screwed up.

516
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: Throw away the key is what you got. So yeah,

517
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't think that's cynical. I think that's absolutely the truth.

518
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: So thankfully they're taking a little bit different approach. We've

519
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: gotten a little bit smarter about this stuff, and now

520
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: we're focusing. We're trying to focus on harm what's called

521
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: harm reduction techniques, basically trying to keep people from dying.

522
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: A bunch of different things have been tried, and a

523
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: lot of it has been fairly effective. As we're seeing

524
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: like the numbers going down in overdoses, but distributing test strips.

525
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: So if you buy a pill, or if you buy

526
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: cocaine or something, and you have a test strip, you

527
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: can test to see if that drug has ventanyl before

528
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: you use it, or maybe your dealer even offers that service.

529
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: That's really something.

530
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you want to be a and

531
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: again I say reputable drug dealer with sort of scare quotes,

532
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: but I would imagine that's a good thing to do,

533
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: is say, hey, this stuff is pure. I got a

534
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: test strip here, and you can test it to make

535
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: sure that you can be a repeat customer and not

536
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: dead on the sidewalk.

537
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that the test strips have helped

538
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: a lot of people, if not save their lives. The

539
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: problem with them that I've seen is that all they

540
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: do is show that there is fentanyl present. It doesn't

541
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: say whether it's a fentanyl analog like car fentanyl that's

542
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: one hundred times stronger than fentanyl. It doesn't say how

543
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: much fentanyl is in there, so is it just a

544
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: little bit or is it like a kill you sized dose.

545
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: But if you're like I don't do fentanyl, those test

546
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: trips are going to get quite a bit, like I

547
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: just want cocaine. Stop putting fentanyl in my cocaine. Those

548
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 2: test strips are going to help you, and they're going

549
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: to tick you off because I mean, I don't think

550
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: you can take cocaine back to the deal learn get

551
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: your money back because it had fentanyl in it. Although

552
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: who knows with kids these days.

553
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that these newer generations may demand return restitution.

554
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: So another thing that they can do is, you know,

555
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: they're safe places where people can go use the drugs

556
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: while people watch out for you. The drug users themselves

557
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: seem to have wizened up a little bit because of

558
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: all the news and probably seeing their friends die very sadly.

559
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: But they may take, you know, dip their toe in

560
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: the water a little bit at first and take a

561
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: smaller dose. Or they may if they're with a group

562
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: that's using stagger the doses so people can be standing

563
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: by with that narcan in case one of their friends

564
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: passes out.

565
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: I wonder if, like you, they draw straws to see

566
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: what order everybody does drugs in, Like, how do they

567
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: how do they determine who's going to go last?

568
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: Any medium monuments? Okay, the age old the traditionally exactly,

569
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: But I did mention Narcan and that is the brand

570
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: name for naloxone or nelaxone, and that can redse reverse

571
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 1: an overdose. And like, I have only one anecdotal example.

572
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if it always works this way, but

573
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: one day quite a few years ago, a car just

574
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: kind of pulled around the corner and parked across the street,

575
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: and this dude got out of the car and his

576
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: girlfriend was like passed out, and it was clear that

577
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: it was a drug thing. Luckily, my Cross Street neighbors

578
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: a nurse. She called nine one one. Immediately they showed

579
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: up with narcan and dude they injected that, and this

580
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: girl was walking around and like saying, can I get

581
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: Can we leave now? Like minutes later?

582
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I mean it just reverses an overdose, right.

583
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I do. I mean, I don't know what

584
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: happens after that. All I saw was this snapshot where

585
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: she was like, I want to get out of here,

586
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: and I don't know what the law the laws are

587
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: as far as that kind of stuff goes. But the

588
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: ambulance I don't think is allowed to call the cops

589
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: on you. If I'm not mistaken. I think they're just like, Okay,

590
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: I guess you can go.

591
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know the law in Georgia or anywhere really, but.

592
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, those laws are called something what is it, good

593
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: Samaritan laws? Oh okay, yeah, I guess that's it.

594
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: So you would be protected, but that wouldn't matter. It's

595
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 2: more like, if you're shooting up with your friend and

596
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 2: your friend overdoses and you have a bunch of heroin

597
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 2: or fentanyl on you, you can't be prosecuted for having that.

598
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure to an extent because you just

599
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: because you called for help to help your friend and

600
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 2: the cops ended up showing up to you.

601
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I didn't look this up, But can't you

602
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: just buy a narcan?

603
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's getting much more widely available. Okay, Yeah, but

604
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: let's talk a little bit about overdoses because there's some

605
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: One of the telltale signs I think it's not just

606
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: with fentanyl, with heroin as well, or opioids in general,

607
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: is it can produce fluid in the lungs, so that

608
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: a telltale sign of an overdose is froth around the

609
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 2: mouth or in the notes. Once that happens, you need

610
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: to act pretty quickly, and one of the things that

611
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: they say to do first is rub your knuckles on

612
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: their chests kind of hard, because it's a very uncomfortable

613
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 2: thing to have done to you, and it can snap

614
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: you out of a opioid stupor even that. But if

615
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: they don't respond, then it's you need to call nine

616
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 2: to one to one and or administered in the lockxown.

617
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in the brain stem, there are a

618
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: couple of regions, the medulla and the ponds, and they

619
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: control the depth and rate of breathing. But both of

620
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: those have a lot of opioid receptors. So if you

621
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: do fentanyl and they attach to those receptors, which they will,

622
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: they can change the behaviors of the cells such that

623
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: they just stop working and you just literally just stop breathing,

624
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: like it's that simple.

625
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's even worse than that, actually, because there's

626
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: also opio receptors in the parts of your brain that

627
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 2: control voluntary breathing. So like when you're like I need

628
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: to catch my breath and you take a deep breath,

629
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: or if you're meditating, when you purposefully breathe, that is

630
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: repressed as well, so you have involuntary breathing and voluntary

631
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: breathing or repressed, and this thing that detects rises in

632
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: CO two in your body that gets repressed as well.

633
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So basically, if you want to take that

634
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: deep breath, if you've since like you're in trouble, I'm like,

635
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: oh man, I got to get a big breath of

636
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: air here. You just do that normally, But little small

637
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: increases in CO two are sensed, and thekarated body it's

638
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,479
Speaker 1: a little small cluster of sales in the neck. They're

639
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: going to spur that increase in breathing to remove that

640
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: excess CEOs two. But if that's not working and that

641
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: emergency sort of fail safe is switched off, then again

642
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 1: you can't even get that big breath to save yourself.

643
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So breathing, I think you said early on that

644
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 2: typically is where fatal overdoses. It's just you just stop breathing,

645
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: stop being able to breathe. But there's other ways you

646
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: could die. I think you mentioned heart attack earlier too.

647
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 2: Another famous one with opioids is your gag reflex is suppressed.

648
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 2: So if you're basically knotted off and you throw up,

649
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: say you've been drinking as well, you're not going to

650
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: choke that stuff out or spit it out or throw

651
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 2: it up out of your mouth. It can just stay

652
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 2: in your mouth and it can go down your lungs

653
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: and you aspirate and or choke on your own vomit.

654
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: That's another way you can die from an overdose as well.

655
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: I was waiting to see if you were going to

656
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: come up with like a fourth way to say pukey?

657
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 2: Did I say a bunch of different ways?

658
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: You said, like three, you like spit it up or

659
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: vomit it up or choke ers yeack it up.

660
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: I was like, we get it blow chunks it up.

661
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: Oh God. So as far as treatment goes, it kind

662
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: of goes and locks up with what they do for heroin.

663
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: It's called medication assisted treatment or MATT. That's kind of

664
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: the gold standard. We're talking about either methadone or how

665
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: do you say that, bupa norphine. If you get methadone,

666
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: it's going to be done at a clinic. It's not

667
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: like they just hand that out at the pharmacy, which

668
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: means you have to go to that clinic. You got

669
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: to wait in line a lot of times. You got

670
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: to do it there. The other one, I believe is

671
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: given in the form or I guess the brand name

672
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 1: subox Owne, and I think you can you can get

673
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: that prescribed. But a lot of people are like, hey,

674
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: you know, go to drug rehab and just quit doing

675
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: all this stuff because you're still on another drug. If

676
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: you're going to a methadone clinic every day, right.

677
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't have access to the kind

678
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,439
Speaker 2: of doctor that's going to prescribe that for them. There's

679
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: a lot, like even among medical professionals still believe it

680
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: or not, there's still a lot of stigma associated with

681
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: being an opioid addict. Yeah, which is pretty rich considering

682
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: the American physicians, a significant chunk of them got America

683
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: hooked on opioids in the first place. But that's neither

684
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: here nor there right now. So I think there was

685
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: a study from twenty twenty two that the CDC conducted

686
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 2: where they said that of the three point seven percent

687
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 2: of all adults in the United States who need medication

688
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: assisted treatment, I think only about twenty five percent of

689
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 2: that three point seven percent, we're able to get it.

690
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

691
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: One of the other ways that you can get off

692
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: of it is to go to prison where they are

693
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 2: just like, good luck drying out.

694
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's no.

695
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: Way to kick no. And the problem with it, too

696
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: is not just like that's I can't imagine going through that.

697
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 2: But if you get out of prison or say you're

698
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: able to get heroin or something or fentanyl in prison

699
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 2: after you've kicked it, your tolerance has dropped. And we

700
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: talked about this in our Heroin episode in twenty twenty.

701
00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: But your tolerance has dropped, and so your likelihoo of

702
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 2: an overdose is through the roof compared to what it

703
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 2: was before you kicked heroin the hard way or fatanyl.

704
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: The hard way. Yeah, so we busted the myth about

705
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: illegal immigrants smuggling this into the country. Earlier, there was

706
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: another myth apparently police departments kind of spread this one

707
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: that touching fentanyl at all or inhaling just trades amounts

708
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: can overdose you. Apparently that came from a twenty sixteen

709
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: US DEA advisory to claim that was possible. But this

710
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: is sort of annoying because it's not you know, generally

711
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: absorbed through the skin. They have those transdermal patches, but

712
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: it's not like helping someone like shaking somebody on the

713
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: ground or something can get it into your skin that way,

714
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: or inhaling enough to overdose you. Is like, there's no

715
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: way you would accidentally inhale enough to overdose.

716
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 2: Right, But there's cases of like first responders in paramedics

717
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: suffering from exposure two very small amounts of fentanyl and

718
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: people are like, what the heck's going on. The best

719
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 2: explanation is that it's it's what's called the culture bound syndrome,

720
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 2: this expectation that it can happen. It leads to a

721
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: nocebo effect where the person essentially freaks themselves out into

722
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: a panic attack, and it's it's they're like, I just

723
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: had I just odd on fentanyl, just from touching a

724
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 2: little bit of it. Yeah, that's the best explanation. It

725
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: makes sense. The point is is like, you like, interacting

726
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 2: with somebody who's odd on fentanyl. Isn't going to give

727
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: you a fentanyl high or overdose?

728
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Another myth, I guess the final myth

729
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: that we can bust is if you hear somebody saying, like,

730
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: you know, all these unhoused people in the streets, it's

731
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: all because of fentanyl. They're out they're they're homeless now

732
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: they're in your neighborhoods. And this is because of this epidemic.

733
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: I'm sure that has happened where people you know, can't

734
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: pay their rent and on the street because of an

735
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: addiction like that. Sometimes people turn to drugs after the

736
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: fact if they are in house. But if you look

737
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: at it on a macro level, the data shows that

738
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: the reason America has an unhoused crisis like we do

739
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: now is mainly because of the cost of housing. It's

740
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: not drug use, it's not mental illness, it's not unemployment,

741
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: even all those things are a factor, not saying they

742
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: don't count, but it's the cost of housing.

743
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy. Look at all the morality we associate

744
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: with drugs, Like it's brought in by illegal immigrants, drug

745
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: users accidentally create overdoses, and first responders and paramedics trying

746
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: to help them. It's the reason for homelessness, Like it's all.

747
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: There's all moral judgments associated with all of those things. Yeah,

748
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 2: and you're associated with the drug. And anybody who doesn't

749
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: do that drug and loves first responders, doesn't like illegal immigrants,

750
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: and doesn't like homeless people, is going to hate that drug.

751
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: From that point on.

752
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, the drug, it was okay by the FDA, and

753
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: that you know, wealthy pharmaceutical families in this country's got

754
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: rich off of Yeah.

755
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: Well, let's just say again, fentanyl is perfectly safe in

756
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: like a medical setting in the hands of the trained professional.

757
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 2: It's just outside of that when when cartels become involved

758
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 2: and it's it becomes a huge problem. But I said,

759
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: at the outset, there is a silver lining or at

760
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: least some hope because they're the use is well. First

761
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: of all, opioid deaths are declining. I think they peaked

762
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two with one hundred and eight thousand

763
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: opioid overdose deaths in the United States, and the numbers

764
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: aren't in for twenty twenty four, but they think the

765
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: estimate is that it's going to be anywhere between a

766
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: fifteen to twenty percent drop in overdose deaths from fentanyl.

767
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: And they say, okay, well, Chuck, why why are these

768
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 2: fentanyl deaths finally subsiding? What's the deal?

769
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there could be. It's it's probably most

770
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: of these things combined. When you look at it on

771
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: a bird's eye perspective. A lot of people say, the

772
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: testing strips have made a big deal, that narcan has

773
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: made a big difference, that MATT treatment has made a

774
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: big difference. One reason is because drug users have gotten

775
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 1: a little bit smarter. Like I mentioned earlier, some people

776
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: are trying to avoid it altogether. Some people are, like

777
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: I said, dipping their toe in the pond or making

778
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: sure their friends don't overdose. One of the saddest possible

779
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: factors is that so many people have died off there

780
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: just aren't as many active users anymore for that reason.

781
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was. Yeah, you were saying that, like younger

782
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: generations might have been scared away from it.

783
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another reason.

784
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently I thought you said that. So apparently gen

785
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: Z is unlikely or less likely to use drugs. I

786
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: think like sixty seven of twelfth graders said that they

787
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: abstained from drugs, meaning that they hadn't taken any drugs

788
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 2: in the last thirty days. And I was like, I

789
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: wonder what that is compared to gen X back and

790
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 2: when we were in high school.

791
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: Oh my god, And I.

792
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: Was like, this is this is gonna be crazy. It

793
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: is crazy, but it's the opposite way you would think

794
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 2: the I think I can't remember what US agency conducts

795
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: this every year, but in nineteen ninety three, high school

796
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: seniors said that eighty one point seven percent said that

797
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: they had abstained from drugs in the last thirty days.

798
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 2: So gen Z is on way more drugs than gen

799
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: X was, which is very surprising to me.

800
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: Or gen X is a generation of liars.

801
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: That's entirely possible too, are you Narkman.

802
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was a good

803
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: boy growing up, but I certainly I feel like all

804
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 1: my friends were doing all the drugs.

805
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: I wonder if it really is there is it's just

806
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: a lot more prevalence of drug use because it's so

807
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: easy to get it on the internet, and it used

808
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: to be hard back when we were in high school

809
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: for people maybe drugs in high school.

810
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, there's definitely improved international cooperation between the

811
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: United States and other countries just to reduce the supply.

812
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: That US of Mexico has gotten together, and they've been

813
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: working together for a while now trying to intercept those

814
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: drug shipments and trying to you know, mess up the

815
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: cartel and what their activities, what the cartel is doing.

816
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: I think in twenty twenty four. Last year, the Mountain

817
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: of Fitnel crossing that border dropped by about twenty percent.

818
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: So that's pretty good.

819
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's pretty significant.

820
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 1: What else I got? Nothing else?

821
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: Well, I guess we should probably say before we end

822
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 2: the episode, Chuck, if you do fentanyl in your addicted

823
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: to fentanyl, please seek as whatever help you can find

824
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: to get off of it. And if you haven't tried

825
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: it yet, probably you shouldn't start.

826
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd say not even probably, let's say definitely do.

827
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, since Chuck corrected me from probably to definitely,

828
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: as was foretold in two thousand and eight, he is

829
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: just god listener.

830
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: Now, all right, there's another two part around disaster movies,

831
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: because we heard from two African American listeners, because I

832
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: specifically asked, like, how mad are you about the fact

833
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: that black people get killed in movies and horror movies

834
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 1: and disaster movies routinely and that's just such a well

835
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: known trope, And we heard from a couple of faithful listeners. Hey, guys,

836
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: you asked if it's still a thing amongst black people

837
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: about being the first to die in scary movies. Yes,

838
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: it is still a running joke, of course, but there's

839
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: more to it now I found. I'm finding as an

840
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: African American and avid movie watcher, the new thing is

841
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: the black person often dies in sacrifice of something or

842
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: someone else. So yes, we still may go first in

843
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: the film, but often for a noble cause. I guess

844
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: that makes it more palatable. Lol. That is from Serena

845
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: and then this is from Kevin. First of all, I'm

846
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: a casual fan of this subgenre, enjoy the exciting thrills

847
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: that come with it. For years, it's become common knowledge

848
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: black people will rarely lead or survive to the end

849
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: of those movies, as well as other genre movies like

850
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: horror or romcom in mainstream Hollywood. It doesn't make me mad, though, guys,

851
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, I just want

852
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: the escapism of the movie. I don't want to think

853
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: about the socio economics behind everything. But I understand that

854
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: Hollywood has catered to a white audience since the beginning,

855
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: as they figure that this is a safe bet financially

856
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: and minorities are expendable. My movie watching friends pretty much

857
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: know who will survive and who will hook up, and

858
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: we just want to enjoy the show. But I am

859
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: glad to live in a time where we are having

860
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: more representation behind the scenes to pull more strings in

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Speaker 1: our favor. Keep up the good work and that is

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00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: again Kevin and then Serena.

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00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: Awesome, thanks Kevin and Serena. That reminds me of a

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00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 2: point online to make that I didn't have a chance

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00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 2: to in Earthquake. Richard Rowntree aka Shaft, he was in that.

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00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: He made it to the end, and he was also

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Speaker 2: one of the heroes helping save Jenna Vie. M my

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Speaker 2: saying your name correctly.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know that Richard Rowntree is

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Speaker 1: almost always the hero. Yeah.

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00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, he was like a motorcycle stuntman, so he

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00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 2: was sadly an exception, but he definitely did make it

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00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 2: to the end.

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Speaker 1: Which was great. Yeah. Nice work, Nice.

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Speaker 2: Work, Richard Rowntree. And if you want to be like

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00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: Kevin and Serena and want to share your thoughts with us,

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00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: we love that kind of thing. You can send us

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00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: an email of the Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

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00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,