1 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: Casey, can we get a little bit of a kind 2 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: of a Gettysburg vibe music, you know, like with the 3 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: drums flute, there we go. I feel that cadence. It 4 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: sounds like a nineties song, like like like Jumper by 5 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Third Eye Blind or something you know from centuries earlier. Yeah, yeah, totally. 6 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: It's those It's those marching drums that really give my 7 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: give my fields up. And speaking of fields, thanks for 8 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: tuning in. We hope that you are feeling great. Uh, 9 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: this is ridiculous history. My name is Ben, my name 10 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: is Noel, and the man on the ones and twos 11 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: as always give it up for our super producer, Casey Pegram. 12 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: Today's episode does concern some heavy history that we we 13 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: have to bring into the story, but we we don't 14 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: have to get to two in the weeds about it. 15 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: You've heard the story a thousand thousand times, whether or 16 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: not you live in the US. It's a story of 17 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: brother against brother, North and South, a nation divided. The 18 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: US Civil War. Well, how would you describe the US 19 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: Civil War to someone who had never heard of it? 20 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: It was real, main spirited man. Brothers were fighting brothers. 21 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: Everyone was at each other's throats in the North from 22 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: the South, and why can't we all just get along? 23 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: And it wasn't any fun, Man, wasn't any fun. From 24 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,919 Speaker 1: April twelfth, eighteen sixty one, to April nine, eighteen sixty five, 25 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: this nation was embroiled in what would later become the 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: most heavily documented research war in US history. Yeah, that too, 27 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: So I think all of those facts together are are 28 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: pretty good high level look at at this conflict. But 29 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: the ramifications of the U. S Civil War carry on 30 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: in the United States today, not just in the southern 31 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: part of the continent, but in the policies and the 32 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: legislation created on a state and federal level. The war 33 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: created several larger than life historical figures, people who were 34 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: and are enormously influential here in Abraham Lincoln, for instance, right, 35 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: the guy who brought everybody back together hell or high water. 36 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: And today's episode is about another one of those giants, 37 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: a man named Robert E. Lee, or we can only 38 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: imagine Bobby Lee to his friends. Yeah, or maybe some 39 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: people call him Eddie because his middle name the East 40 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: for Edward. Yeah. I know that was eating a lot 41 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: of you up inside, not knowing what that he stood for. 42 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: Was it corn exactly. So what do we know about 43 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee? Well, like okay, So he was born 44 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: January nineteenth of eighteen oh seven, passed away October twelfth 45 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: of eighteen seventy, and he was a decorated um general. 46 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: He was born in a plantation in Westmoreland County, Virginia, 47 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: UM and he came from a military family. His father's 48 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: name was Major General Henry Lee the third had a 49 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: pretty dope nickname as with light Horse Harry UM and 50 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: it was He was also the governor of Virginia UH. 51 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: And he was had Robert E. With his second wife 52 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:48,559 Speaker 1: and Hill Carter. And he was raised in this very 53 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: regimented military family and he carried on that legacy with 54 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: a career in military engineering. His father actually had some 55 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: difficulty is that he ended up in debtors prison due 56 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: to some financial troubles he had while doing business in 57 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: the West Indies. UM. But but Robert was left undeterred 58 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: and he got himself a pretty choice spot at the 59 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: prestigious military academy at West Point, where he graduated second 60 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: in his class um in eighteen twenty nine. But it 61 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: would be some time before Lee actually ever saw battle. 62 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: It wasn't until eighteen forty six in the War with 63 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: Mexico that he was able to really get his feet, wet, 64 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: his hands bloody. Whatever the euphemisity you'd like to use 65 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: under General Winfield Scott's brigade or whatever you want, regiments, 66 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh. He became a pretty well respected 67 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: soldier for bravery, and he came out of that situation 68 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: with the rank of colonel and then was appointed as 69 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: superintendent at West Point, where he served from eighteen fIF 70 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: two to eighteen fifty five. But um, let's remember where 71 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: this story starts. He was at heart a Southern gentleman 72 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: raised on a Southern plantation, and was also a slave owner, 73 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: and reports are that he was quite cruel to his 74 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: slaves in fact, and in a biography brief biography on 75 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,119 Speaker 1: Battlefields dot org Um, the writer points out that during 76 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: his tenure as the superintendent, which is like the head 77 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: hauncho of West Point, he would be overseeing cadets who 78 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: would serve on both sides of the Civil War, both 79 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: under him and in opposition to his forces. Because, as 80 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: we know, he went on to become the general of 81 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: the Confederate Forces, which were the forces that supported slavery right. So, 82 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: one thing that people forgot pretty quickly after the close 83 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: of the Civil War and Robert E. Lee's death is 84 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: that he was by no means a perfect man. There 85 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: are a lot of myths about Lee that are still 86 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: circulating today, one of those being that he was opposed 87 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: to slavery. After the Civil War, he did attempt to 88 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: present himself as always having been opposed to slavery. In 89 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: an interview shortly after his surrender at Appomattox, he said 90 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: that the best men of the South have been eager 91 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: to do away with the abominable practice. In eighteen sixty six, 92 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: he testified before the Joint Committee on Reconstruction that he 93 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: had always been in favor of emancipation, gradual emancipation. However, 94 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: he owned or managed slaves for over thirty years in 95 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty one, in April, he oversaw roughly two hundred individuals. 96 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: Not to mention that there were reports. You know, maybe 97 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: we haven't have cocon of present confirmation, but he wasn't 98 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: a particularly kind slave owner. That he may have been 99 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: much more on the cruel and brutal side. We give 100 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: this just to lay out those facts. These are very, 101 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: very important things. However, his personal or non military life aside, 102 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: he was known as one of the finest officers in 103 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: the US Army. In eighteen fifty nine, he was called 104 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: upon to suppress the raid at Harper's Ferry led by 105 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: the abolitionist John Brown, and was so successful that in 106 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty one, Abraham Lincoln offered him command of the 107 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: full federal forces. Not only did he decline, he resigned 108 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: from the army when the state of Virginia seceded from 109 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: the Union on April seventeen of the same year, his 110 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: reasoning being I cannot make war against my own people. 111 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: And he didn't just resign, He didn't go, you know, 112 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: hang out on a farm somewhere. Instead, he joined up 113 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: with the newly formed Confederate Army as a general. So 114 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: his first military engagement is at a place called cheat Mountain, Virginia. 115 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: Well now it's West Virginia, but back then it was 116 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: just Cheap Mountain, Virginia on September eleventh, eighteen sixty one. 117 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: It was a victory for the Union, but he still 118 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: weathered the storm and was also a military advisor to 119 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: President Jefferson Davis until eighteen sixty two and there are 120 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: so many fantastic stories, books, biographies, podcast, research papers, and 121 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: so on written about the Civil War that we would 122 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: we would helpfully refer you to any one of those. 123 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: Let's fast forward to the end of the Civil War, 124 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: because this is when our story really begins to take shape. 125 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: So we said that the Civil War ended in eighteen 126 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: sixty five, right, Yeah, it's true because upon um defeat, 127 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee had to or didn't have to, but 128 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: he seemed to acquiesce to swearing allegiance to the Union 129 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: and to admitting defeat, and to not being a particularly 130 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: sore sport about the whole affair because he was, you know, 131 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: in fact, a professional military man, and he understood the 132 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: rules of engagement, and he wasn't gonna pitch a fit 133 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: about it, and he kind of went quietly. Yeah. On 134 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: April nine, eighteen sixty five, Lee surrendered the Confederate Army 135 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: to Ulysses S. Grant at the Appomattox Courthouse. This ended 136 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: the Civil War, I mean, effectively, he went home on parole. 137 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: His life went on for about five years after the 138 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: Civil Wars end, and he eventually became president of Washington 139 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: College right before his death on October twelfth, in eighteen seventy. 140 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: There's an interesting timeline here, right, So he only lives 141 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: about five years after the close of the Civil War. 142 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: And similar to the way that myths sprang up about 143 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: George Washington, you know, even while he was alive and 144 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: certainly immediately after his death, we see the same thing 145 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: in certain parts of American culture with Robert E. Lee. 146 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: He was romanticized, he was memorialized. You could say, people 147 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: in the South wanted to build statues to him. They 148 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: wanted to waive the stars and bars and talk about 149 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: I don't know, the South rising again, right, Yeah, I 150 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: mean that's what they said, absolutely, But it ends up 151 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: feeding into some pretty toxic romanticizations of these ideas. Oh yeah, 152 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: let's have no illusions about that. It's it's it's it's 153 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: it's bad stuff. And we will get into how that 154 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: plays into more contemporary history in just a little bit. 155 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: In an article on PBS dot Org by Lisa and 156 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and really french this one up 157 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: Lisa Arden, which I may be overpronouncing it. I'd rather 158 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: overpronounced than underpronounced. She mentions how Lee was pretty clear 159 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: about the way he felt about that kind of romanticization 160 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: well before his death. Um, and that he stressed this 161 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: idea that it was very important for a country that 162 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: had been torn by war to move past it, and 163 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: that includes not memorializing it with any kind of symbolism 164 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: or militant monument remembrances, things like that that would continue 165 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: to cause UH to sort of sow the seeds of separatism. 166 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: And there's a really great quote from him that you 167 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: think you can kind of take as at faith faith value, 168 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: and then we can kind of dissect a little bit too, Ben, 169 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: Do you want to read that one? Sure? This quote 170 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: comes from a piece of correspondence about a proposed memorial 171 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: at Gettysburg written in eighteen sixty nine. I think it 172 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: was not to keep open the souls of war, but 173 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: to follow the examples of those nations who wouldn't they 174 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: able to obliterate the marks of civil strath to commit 175 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: to oblivion. Little feelings engendered, very well spoken, sir. That's 176 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: not me, that's Robert E. Lee. I don't know where 177 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: we got the audio. I felt as though he floated 178 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: right into the room. Um. Yeah, it's true. And that 179 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: has led many to believe that what he meant was 180 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: any of these Confederate monuments were counter to his idea 181 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: of how it would be best to deal with the 182 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: fallout from a war like that. That by having these 183 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: romanticizations or any kind of these big reminders staring you 184 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: in the face, whatever side you were on, it's not 185 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: a good thing, and it would continue to sow those 186 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: seeds of division and hostility between the winning and the 187 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: losing sides. Yeah, there's a great biography of Lee by 188 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: a fellow named Jonathan Horne, The Man Who Would Not 189 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: Be Washington fantastic title, and he points out that Lee himself, 190 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: Roberty Lee himself, after the Civil War and those five 191 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: years before his death, he opposed monuments, but specifically opposed 192 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: Confederate War monuments, And in his correspondence we have multiple 193 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: documented reasons for his opinion. So in one case he 194 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: questions the cost of a monument to Stonewall Jackson, and 195 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: he finds some other ways to approach this issue. But 196 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: his underlying prime objection to this is that we empower 197 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: a cause or an idea when we remember it. That's 198 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: why so many civilizations work so ardently in the past 199 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: and in the modern day to erase things from your 200 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: history books. In his mind, the war had ended, the 201 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: nation was one again, and it needed to look forward 202 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: to the future, rather than um celebrating this social upheaval 203 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: and then potentially leading to further discord down the road. Yeah. 204 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: He he puts it pretty eloquently in this this court 205 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: that we also have tape off as regards the erectional 206 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: such a monument as is contemplated. My conviction eels that 207 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: how evil gratefully it would be to the feelings of 208 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: the South, the attempting the present condition of the country 209 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: would have the effect of re todd instead of accelerating 210 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: its accomplishment, all continuing, if not adding to the difficulties 211 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: under which the Southern people label We do want to 212 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: point out there that he is using a word that 213 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: could be seen as offensive, but he's using it in 214 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: the correct way, you know what I mean. He's meaning 215 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: to sty me the progress of the country. Yeah. Indeed, Um, 216 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: And there's a this actually was so divisive it made 217 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,239 Speaker 1: the news really recently because of the senseless and bizarre 218 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: and unfortunate uh attack for lack of a better term, 219 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: that happened in Charlottesville, Virginia in um where in fact, 220 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: a an alt right or a white supremacist group descended 221 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: on the small college town because of a proposal to 222 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: pull down a statue of General Roberty Lee. And there 223 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: was violence. Um, a young woman was hit and killed 224 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: by a car, and it at the time, it was 225 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: just utter chaos. It became a very divisive political issue. 226 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: Even before this event. It became a very divisive political issue, 227 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: the idea of should we erase these marks of the 228 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: past because of what they represent, which you know, you 229 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: could argue is racism, is division, is pro slavery attitudes. 230 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: Some Southerners, old school Southerners say it's their heritage or represents, 231 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: you know, just the history of the South, and that 232 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: taking it down is disrespectful to them. So say what 233 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: you will. Our president have this to say about it. 234 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: Sad to see the history and culture of our great 235 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful 236 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: statues and monuments. Do you know, no, I I noticed 237 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: you didn't do a Trump voice for that, And I 238 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: think that's I think that's a good call, because I 239 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I've been looking around and I just cannot, 240 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: for the life of me, find a good impression of 241 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: that guy, you know what I mean, Like the Alec 242 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: Baldwin and one is not that great. Well, that's sort 243 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: of what makes his funny, right, is that it's like 244 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: it's it's it's yeah, it's so out of left field 245 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: that it just kind of is like cartoonist as you 246 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: would say, right. Yeah. Even Stephen Colbert h love the 247 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: guys just I don't know, maybe it's a tough voice. 248 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: They're the pros. Let us know if you if you've 249 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: seen a decent impression. And I'm not saying anything further 250 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: than that, it's just usually when someone's president, there's like 251 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: one person, often from Saturday Night Live, who does the 252 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: best impression of that president. And it looks like we're 253 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: still looking for one. No offense to any Alec Baldwin 254 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: fans in the how US. But your point, your point stands, Nolan. 255 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: It goes back to, uh, what I was saying at 256 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: the top. We see these ramifications carry on to the 257 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: modern day. Faulkner was right when he said the past 258 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: is not over. It's not even past. And I'm paraphrasing there, 259 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: but this is an important point I believe. Now currently 260 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: as it stands, there's somewhere around seven hundred and fifty 261 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: monuments all told, across the US that are um there 262 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: are memorials for the Civil War, and that's according to 263 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: the Southern Poverty Law Center. People who want these removed 264 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: to say that the continued presence of the monuments confers 265 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: undue dignity on a faction that fought to preserve slavery 266 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: and white supremacy. So they agree with Robert E. Lee, 267 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: but perhaps for different reasons. Yeah, and not to mention that. 268 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: In August, it's when PBS News Hour and NPR are 269 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: uh an emarrassed pole found that six people responding to 270 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: the pole thought that monuments such as this should stay 271 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: in place as historical symbols. So it is a tricky 272 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: argument because on the one hand, it's a form of 273 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: revisionist history. On the other hand, you know, real estate 274 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: is scarce, maybe we should devote it to some more 275 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: positive things, you know what I mean, like as opposed 276 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: to something that represents things that are painful to others 277 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: who have family members that possibly even lived through it 278 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: or were connected to it more directly. And one thing 279 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: that a lot of people miss when they hear the 280 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: headline Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate memorials, is that he 281 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: also opposed Civil War memorials in general. He turned down 282 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association back in eighteen sixty nine. 283 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: He really wanted the battle fields to be erased, to 284 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: turn into farms, to turn into towns, another peaceful areas 285 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: of the nation, rather than memorializing them. He saw it 286 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: as a way to speed reconciliation. So it's not as 287 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: if he was holy repentant, you know what I mean, 288 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: Nor was he penitent. He said all of the memorials 289 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: would be better if they were left unbuilt, Ye for sure. Uh. 290 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: And this is one of those quotes, the original one 291 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: that we said about, you know, the sores of division 292 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: or whatever that you can very easily take out of 293 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 1: context and you use to support arguments on either side. Right, 294 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: And this is where our tail draws to a close. 295 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: But we didn't want to end on two somber a 296 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: note because there is a very specific type of unorthodox 297 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: Confederate memorial that will never be removed from the US 298 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: because it doesn't exist in the US. We're talking about 299 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: the Confederados, the ten thousand to twenty thousand Confederate American 300 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: refugees who fled to Brazil, mainly in sal Polo, and 301 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: UH then lived, reproduced, had descendants, They founded the city Americana, Brazil. 302 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: We did this on previous episodes. Yeah, it was that 303 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: obsession with the Confederate South, Uh in the very same 304 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: way that they romanticize it in an almost weird kind 305 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: of like alternate reality man in the High Castle, fictionalized 306 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of way, as though if they had won the war, 307 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: what it would be like that was that's a weird one. 308 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: And you can you can see the residents of Americana 309 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: Salthpolo talking about how they how much they enjoy the 310 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: festival they hold every year, and how it's for them 311 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: not about commemorating a regime, right, it's not about commemorating 312 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: um racism or slavery year, all the things tied to 313 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: the Civil War. It's just for them part of their culture. 314 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: Very interesting town. So if you've ever been there, check 315 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: it out and let us know what you find. UH 316 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: And you know in fact, snopes dot com, the the 317 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: famous fact checking site, decided to weigh in on this 318 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: as well, with the question was Robert Eale opposed to 319 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: Confederate monuments, and they classify it as a mixture of 320 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: true and false, with the truth being UH supporting the 321 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: validity of those quotes that he expressed opposition to UH 322 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: Civil War monuments memorials, including the Stonewall Jackson one specifically, 323 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: But what isn't clear is the breadth of this position. 324 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: His opposition to Confederate monuments was probably more pronounced than 325 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: his opposition towards Civil War monuments in general, but it 326 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 1: was still against against them overall. That's right, that's right, 327 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: but it is one of those mixed, uh, mixed Snopes responses. 328 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: And then the continuation of the President Trump's quote from 329 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: earlier or the tweet was this, he says, you can't 330 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: change history, but you can learn from it. Robert Lee, 331 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: Stonewall Jackson, Who's next? Washington? Jefferson? So foolish. Also, the 332 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns, 333 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: and parks will be greatly missed and never able to 334 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: be completely replaced. Uh. So we we can see where 335 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: where our boy Donnie Trump falls in that debate. I'd 336 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: also like to hear from you, fellow ridiculous historians, where 337 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: where do you fall in this debate? And speaking of 338 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: hearing from you, what do what do you guys say? 339 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: We do a little listener mail. I think that's a 340 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: smashing idea. Did you see that? One listener wrote in 341 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: and said that the listener male sound effect fills them 342 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: with abject terror. Yes, yeah, interesting was that on Facebook? 343 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: It was on Facebook. I think you can you can 344 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: see what we're talking about if you join forces with 345 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: us on Facebook. At ridiculous historians just getting that plug 346 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: out of the way right now. So so what do 347 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: we got? You got you got any hot takes? No? 348 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: I do. I got one from Hannah uh says hello. 349 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: I was recently listening to your when West Virginia begged 350 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: for foreign aid from the U. S s R. And 351 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: I was inspired to inquire about a podcast on forgat TONI. 352 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: Forgat TONI as a west central section of Illinois that 353 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: was forgotten when highways were expanded west and there was 354 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: an attempt to secede from the United States. This section 355 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: of Illinois felt cut off and decided to bring attention 356 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: to it with this major move. I have lived in 357 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: this area my whole life, and it amazes me how 358 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: few people know of it. Please consider it for a 359 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: future podcast. Thanks, Hannah, Consider it considered, Hannah, Yes, consider 360 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: it considered. I had not heard of forgot Tonia before 361 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: receiving your letter, Hannah, and I think it's fascinating. I 362 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: actually reading a lot about it off air. And I 363 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: hope that there are license plates. I hope that there 364 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: are stickers. I hope that you can, you know, send 365 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: mail with forgot Tonia stamps. But I look forward to 366 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: learning more. And before we uh Forgetonia this segment, let's 367 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: have let's have one more listener mail. Rebecca C. Writes 368 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: to us with an email entitled or Deal by Cake. Hello, 369 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: says Rebecca, I have been listening to this podcast since 370 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: it started and it has become one of my favorites. Thanks. 371 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: In parentheses, she says, I love the quister. We have 372 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,719 Speaker 1: complicated feelings there. The war began by the dog was timely, 373 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: as it came up in trivia last night. Or the 374 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: guy who sets the questions also listened to the show 375 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't you discussed undergoing trials. I was reminded of or 376 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: Deal by Cake, where the person would have to eat 377 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: a dry cake without choking after swear into something, the 378 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: idea being that if you were lying, guilt would stick 379 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: in your throat, just a thought it might leave less 380 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: scars than other ordeals. Rebecca, thanks for writing. I had 381 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: never heard of the Trial by Cake. The closest I 382 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: remember hearing is that old stand up bit about cake 383 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: or death right and Eddie Izard bit. I just got 384 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: confirmed off air by Casey, But I don't know. I 385 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: would give it a try. It sounds kind of like 386 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: a an old school version of the Saltine Challenge. Have 387 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: you heard of that? Is that where you eat a 388 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: bunch of saltines? Is it like the cinnamon Challenge? Yeah? 389 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: Pretty much so. I don't know if that's a way 390 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: to set legal precedent, but um, I'd be interested in 391 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: trying it. I wonder if we could institute. Do you 392 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: think HR would let us get away with that? I mean, 393 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: I I say we Uh. What is it better to 394 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: ask for forgiveness than permission? Especially when Cake is involved? Man, 395 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: sign me up. I'll try anything I want, especially if 396 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: Cake is involved. So thank you so much, Hanna, thank you, Rebecca, 397 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: and to thank you for listening. This concludes listener mail, 398 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: but not our show. Tune in because we have more 399 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: ridiculous stuff on the way. As always, In the meantime, 400 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: you can learn more about ridiculous, bizarre, strange exploits throughout 401 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: the story of human civilization on our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians, 402 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: our Instagram, or our Twitter. You can also follow our 403 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: own personal adventures on Instagram where I am at Ben Boland, 404 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: I am at Embryonic Insider. Big thanks to super producer 405 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: Casey Pagram, Alex Williams, who composed our theme, research associate 406 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: Gaye Bluesier, and of course I think we're due for 407 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: a Christopher Hasiotis appearance and possibly a creepy drop in 408 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: from our arch nemesis the quis or Jonathan Strickland. I 409 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: have PTSD my friend podcast Trauma Traumatic Stress Disorder, because 410 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: this is gonna sound weird, but there are I know 411 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: that it sounds like a bit sometimes, but there are 412 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: genuinely times when we don't know that he's coming. It's 413 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: it's strange, It's it's a bizarre situation and we've just 414 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: been rolling with it. It's also where when he just 415 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: kind of drops down from the ceiling and then his 416 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: head turns around three hundred and sixty degrees and he 417 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: kind of makes a weird cackling sound that's a very guttural, 418 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: like from the throat kind of situation. Yeah, this is 419 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: not a bit. Sometimes he doesn't even make it to 420 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: the mic. He just drops in exorcist style and then 421 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: like skitters back up into the ceiling. It is quite 422 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: traumatic for all concerned. But at the same time, I 423 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: missed the little guy. You know, I'd like a statue. 424 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I was conflicted with us because 425 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: I see Robert E. Lee's point about not wanting to 426 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: memorialize this, uh, this intense divisive period in time. But also, 427 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be kind of cool to have a statue 428 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: of your of yourself? I mean, so it's such a 429 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: Kanye West move, you know, Casey, would you get a 430 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: statue of yourself? Probably not, someone else would have to 431 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: build it right at the very least. But I'll tell 432 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: you what you will get. Maybe not a statue, but 433 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: some kind of apparel I think maybe forthcoming. Oh oh, 434 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: stay tuned.