1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: We have been talking on Bloomberg Law about President elect 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Trump's effect on the Supreme Court going forward, but his effect, 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: of course, is going to be felt throughout the federal government, 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: and one place he has expressed concerns, although he has 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: not really set forth what his policy preferences are is 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: in the area of anti trust enforcement. He hasn't explicitly 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: said what he's going to do or been his detailed 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: about it as his opponent Hillary Clinton had been. But 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: he has criticized the proposed A T and T and 10 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Time Warner merger and other has made some remarks that 11 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: have had some implications for anti trust. He's been suited 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: in the past about anti trust, but no one really 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: knows exactly what he's going to do with us here 14 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: today to talk about what President elect Trump might do 15 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: in the anti trust area is Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Jennifer Ree. Jennifer, 16 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the program. Hi, how are you? Thank you 17 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: for having me. So what do we know so far 18 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: about what President elect Trump might do in the anti 19 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: trust area? Well, you know, I think that you just 20 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: described of it, and the best term that I've heard 21 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: is that he's really a wild card. Um typically a 22 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: Republican administration is friendly to businesses and would be a 23 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: good thing for antitrust in easing the review on mergers 24 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: and and easing you know, opening of investigations and that 25 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But here, as you mentioned, the few 26 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: statements that UM Donald Trump has made about anti trust 27 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: has been to criticize consolidation and UM particularly consolidation amongst 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: large media companies and and too much control in the 29 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: hands of one entity, which is what he said about 30 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: Amazon and Jeff Bezos. So you know, you have both 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: sides of the coin, a business owner and a Republican UM, 32 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: but who is not traditional, not a traditional Republican who 33 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: has to the extent he's expressed anything, it has been 34 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: some indication to actually be a vigorous enforcer. Jennifer Scregg store, um, 35 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about Donald Trump's experience with 36 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: antitrust law as a business man, and might that give 37 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: us some ideas about what he would do as president. 38 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: You know, first, a lot of those experiences were quite 39 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: a long time ago, in the nineteen eighties, and he 40 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: has been both a plaintiff and a defendant in the 41 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: anti trust matters. So it's clear that he knows the 42 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: anti drust laws and how they work and what kind 43 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: of an effect they can have. And he's also already 44 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: used them as a tool, given that he's been a 45 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: plaintiff and he's had some success, um minimal success. He 46 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: as an owner of the USFL in the nineteen eighties, 47 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: for example, he sued the NFL for monopolization and ultimately 48 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: the jury agreed with him and decided that the NFL 49 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: was a monopolist in violation of the anti trust laws, 50 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: but had decided that the difficulty that the USFL was 51 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: having was due to mismanagement and not the NFL's monopolistic conduct, 52 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: so they only awarded a dollar in that case. UM. 53 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: He also had been sued I think in the past 54 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: related to some of his dealings in Atlantic City, UM, 55 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: in which he was accused of conspiring to try to 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: push out competitors. I think he had some success. That 57 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: was where he was a defendant, and he had some 58 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: success with that suit as well. What do we know, 59 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: Jennifer about what kind of impact president like Trump will 60 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: have once he's in office on the Federal Trade Commission. Well, 61 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: I I think that's where his biggest impact will be 62 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: for right now, I mean of course he'll be able 63 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: to appoint um appoint officials to the Department of Justice 64 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: as well. But right now the Federal Trade Commission, which 65 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: normally has five commissioners, is operating with three, So right 66 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 1: off the bat he has two slots to fill UM 67 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: and I think the current chairman, Edith Ramirez, will likely 68 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: leave because her term actually already expired in September, and 69 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: she is a Democrat. And the way that commission is 70 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: set up, of the five commissioners, no more than three 71 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: can be of one political party, so you will always 72 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: either have three Republicans and two two Democrats and vice versa. 73 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: And during a democratic administration, you would normally have three Democrats. 74 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: So in this case, with these openings and his ability 75 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: to appoint, we're likely going to flip from what we 76 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: up now with a majority two Democrats one Republican, to 77 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: three Republicans and two Democrats, giving Republicans the majority. And 78 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: the reason that can have importance is because when the 79 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: FTC makes a decision to take an action, it requires 80 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: a vote, and it must be a majority vote. So um, 81 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: where you have the three Republicans, if the commissioners vote 82 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: along party lines, then there may be less of a likelihood, 83 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: to let's sake, go to court to seek to block 84 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: a deal, Jennifer. For me, at least when Donald Trump 85 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: was was criticizing consolidation, particularly in the media industry, it 86 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: was sometimes hard to distinguish whether he was talking about 87 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: his claim that the election was being rigged or whether 88 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: there was something more more antitrust focused about his comments. Um, 89 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: do you think it's fair to at least speculate that 90 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: he might want to treat consolidation in the media industry 91 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: differently than he might in the drug industry or or 92 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: some other business. I think that's absolutely fair. You know, 93 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: everything that he's talked about in terms of anti trust 94 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: has been targeted at media companies, and I know he 95 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: had he had a lot of anger um with the 96 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: media during the election, and it wouldn't surprise me if 97 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: I guess in a way it would be to use 98 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: the anti trust as a tool to get back at 99 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, what he considers his enemies. Jennifer. We you know, 100 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: we're going to have to do a little bit of 101 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: crystal ball here, but there's been One of his most 102 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: prominent supporters was Rudy Giuliani, who served in the Justice 103 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: Department in the Reagan administration, which was some time ago, 104 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: and Rudy's political views seemed to have changed a bit 105 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: over time. But is there some possibility to say if 106 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: Rudy gets appointed as Attorney General that we might see 107 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: a more Reagan Esque approach to anti trust? You know, 108 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: I would think that would be the case. And even 109 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: if it wasn't Rudy Giuliani, it was sort of a 110 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: more to what you think of as a more traditional 111 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: or Reagan type Republican who was Um appointed to some 112 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: of these positions, both FTC and d o J. Because, 113 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: as I said, the more traditional Republican position has been 114 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: to be uh more hands off, have a lighter hand 115 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,119 Speaker 1: on the anti trust and more friendly to business. And 116 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: if he's going to appoint people like that who are 117 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: going to you know, follow through with that position, then 118 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: you would think overall things might get a little bit 119 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: easier on the anti trust enforcement than they have been 120 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: in the last two years. There's a real tension here, 121 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: isn't there you know, kind of the who is the 122 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: real Donald Trump or what Donald Trumper are we going 123 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: to see? On one hand, there is Rudy Giuliani. On 124 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: the other hand, Um you know, Trump's message with so 125 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: much of a populist message that one might perceive that 126 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: he has somebody who wants to go after big companies, 127 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: break them up, or at least prevent them from from merging. 128 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: I I agree. I think it's really um you know, 129 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: I think those comments were really tough because they seem 130 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: more like the comments of a Democrat. Mean, I think 131 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: I even wrote this up that what he was saying 132 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: was aligned with exactly what Senator Elizabeth Warren was saying 133 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: at the same time that she had a real issue 134 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: with the amount of control and power that some of 135 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: these some of the tech companies had, like Amazon and 136 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: Google and companies like that. And so it's very odd 137 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: here where he when he takes on that populous message, 138 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: he's aligning himself with with the more typical democratic position, uh, 139 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: but in a situation where he's more likely to appoint 140 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: decision makers in the area who have a more traditional 141 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: Republican position. So so it's a very strange situation. So 142 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: we could end up though, in a situation anti trust 143 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: as a place where we could end up not only 144 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: with some battles, say between the appointees and the president. 145 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: If as your seemed to be implying. But also this 146 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: is a place where the president can really um affect 147 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: a lot of policy changes in the economic sphere, isn't it, 148 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: you know? I I think so. It depends on who 149 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: he appoints, you know, under the anti trust laws and 150 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: the way these things work, especially with merger review, the 151 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: president really can't do anything to stop a deal that 152 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: the d O j r FTC has decided is not 153 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: anti competitive or shouldn't be blocked, you know, if they 154 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: go forward with the deal, even with his objection, that's 155 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: how it goes. The President doesn't have the authority to 156 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: try to stop the deal or otherwise block the deal. 157 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: Did you need a court order to do that, and 158 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: the president can't take it into court either. So in 159 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: my mind, it really has to do more with the 160 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: people he puts in place to make these these these 161 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: decisions then actually his own position, and if there's tension 162 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: that could cause problems. Jennifer, let me just before we 163 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: close in very quickly ask you do you think the 164 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: A T and T Time Warner deals in trouble now? 165 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: I think I don't think that it is. Uh, the 166 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: deal is a vertical deal. It doesn't combine to competitors. 167 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: And when you talk about consolidation or too much concentration, 168 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: at least in antitrust parlance which you're thinking about, our 169 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: is too much one one buyer or seller of a 170 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: competing product. And that's not what you have here. So 171 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: you have a vertical integration, which is usually thought of 172 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: as more efficient. Thank you, Jennifer Free Bloomberg Intelligence Analysis, 173 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: talking about possible antitrust action in the Trump administration.