Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, at age eighteen, Clinton Young
Speaker 1: was newly released from Texas Juvenile prison and was the
Speaker 1: youngest and newest member of a group of acquaintances with
Speaker 1: David Page, Mark Ray, and Darnell McCoy. That November, Clinton
Speaker 1: was present when David Page shot and killed two men
Speaker 1: in separate incidents, Doyle Douglas and Samuel Petrie. After the
Speaker 1: second incident, Clinton split from Page, who immediately went to
Speaker 1: the police to control the narrative. All four men were
Speaker 1: brought in, and while Clinton refused to cooperate, Ray and
Speaker 1: McCoy joined Paige in exchange for leniency. When it became
Speaker 1: clear that Clinton was being targeted for the death penalty,
Speaker 1: he made suggestions to police that turned up evidence corroborating
Speaker 1: his innocence. However, that evidence was either explained, ignored, or disappeared.
Speaker 1: The state's case the trial relied solely on the incentivized
Speaker 1: testimonies of Paige, Ray, and McCoy. The defense failed to
Speaker 1: point out conflicting details and inconsistencies in their testimonies or
Speaker 1: the ballistics in DNA evidence that corroborated Clinton's version of events.
Speaker 1: Without access to destroyed or missing evidence that exculpated Clinton.
Speaker 1: He was convicted and sentenced to death. While Clinton's appeals
Speaker 1: were repeatedly denied. Growing evidence of Page, Ray and McCoy's
Speaker 1: false testimony, as well as new forensic evidence exculpate and Clinton,
Speaker 1: eventually led to a stay just a week ahead of
Speaker 1: his execution date in twenty seventeen. Soon, David Page's confession
Speaker 1: on the record, along with the revelation of significant prosecutorial
Speaker 1: misconduct affecting hundreds of cases, including Clinton's, led the court
Speaker 1: to overturn his conviction. But he's not out of the
Speaker 1: woods yet. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: So often since I started making this show over five
Speaker 1: years years ago, we do an episode where I go, Okay,
Speaker 1: now I've heard everything, but now maybe up to today,
Speaker 1: I can really say that because you're going to hear
Speaker 1: some stuff today that is truly mind blowing, even by
Speaker 1: the crazy standards of the rawful conviction cases that we
Speaker 1: cover week in and week out. Because this case involves
Speaker 1: an innocent guy who ended up being sentenced to death,
Speaker 1: We've heard that story before. It involves an advocate who
Speaker 1: moved from the Netherlands to Texas, so that she could
Speaker 1: represent and try to get justice for our subject today,
Speaker 1: Clinton Young, and get ready for this one. It involves
Speaker 1: a prosecutor who was moonlighting writing opinions for the judge. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you heard that correctly. The prosecutor was making a little
Speaker 1: extra money on the side writing rulings in his own cases.
Speaker 1: So now I can catch my breath and introduce the
Speaker 1: very woman I was just talking to you about. I'm
Speaker 1: proud to say, Attorney Meryl Pontier, welcome to wrongful conviction.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Jason.
Speaker 1: And now fresh out of death row. Actually, those are
Speaker 1: some crazy words you even have to say. And live
Speaker 1: from the Midland County Jail, we have our featured guest today,
Speaker 1: Clinton Young. Clinton, welcome to wronful conviction.
Speaker 3: Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 1: Now to explain this to our audience. Clinton is off
Speaker 1: the death row. Otherwise I'd be conducting this interview in
Speaker 1: person at the Polunsky Unit in Livingston, Texas, outside of Houston.
Speaker 1: But instead he's on the phone from Midland County Jail,
Speaker 1: where he's a way to get decision about whether he
Speaker 1: will be retried or perhaps released to a weight retrial
Speaker 1: or the charges may be dropped all together considering the
Speaker 1: story that you're about to hear, And I feel like
Speaker 1: I really should give a bit of a disclaimer here.
Speaker 1: As some of our guests have exhibited criminal behavior prior
Speaker 1: to their wrongful conviction, That's definitely true for Clinton. I mean, he,
Speaker 1: you know, who up in a very difficult environment. You know,
Speaker 1: had a history of drug use and car theft and
Speaker 1: different run ins with the law, all of which are
Speaker 1: just background that ultimately led to him being present during
Speaker 1: the commission of two murders for which he bears no
Speaker 1: culpability other than being next to someone who decided to
Speaker 1: make that grim choice to kill the same person that
Speaker 1: ultimately pointed the finger at him. Now, by his own admission,
Speaker 1: he could have done more to bring that person to justice,
Speaker 1: But the fact is he did not plan or take
Speaker 1: part in these murders. So while you may not agree
Speaker 1: with all of Clinton's choices, first of all, you can't
Speaker 1: walk a mile in his shoes. And two, he didn't
Speaker 1: actually kill anyone. He's innocent of both murders for which
Speaker 1: he was convicted. But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Clinton,
Speaker 1: tell us about your life growing up.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess to still have my life and the
Speaker 3: chaotic path. My mother was seventeen, my father was thirty five.
Speaker 3: He lied about his age lot about having kid, ends
Speaker 3: up pregnant, They get married. He was very, very very
Speaker 3: abusive to her and his other children. So after she
Speaker 3: has me, he continues to beat on her, so she
Speaker 3: finally leaves. Matter of fact, my dad basically kidnapped me
Speaker 3: from my mom and only would give me back to
Speaker 3: her if she signed papers saying that she wouldn't request
Speaker 3: child support and all this stuff. So fast forward some
Speaker 3: time he meets my stepfather and they moving together. They
Speaker 3: get married. I was hyperactive also, and eventually the school
Speaker 3: decided to put me on add medication rhythming and they
Speaker 3: didn't help anything. You know, it made me feel worse,
Speaker 3: and you know, I had problems in school beyond that
Speaker 3: growing up. You know, my stepfather unfortunately was an alcoholic
Speaker 3: and I wasn't his son. But there's usually a dynamic
Speaker 3: that takes place with stepchildren and stepparents is usually a conflict.
Speaker 3: So then my mom and my stepfather are arguing all
Speaker 3: the time because how he acts towards me. So my
Speaker 3: home life was really.
Speaker 1: Chaotic growing up well, that would be such a difficult
Speaker 1: situation to grow up in for anyone from that environment.
Speaker 1: You ended up with some run ins with the law,
Speaker 1: and those were minor things, relatively speaking, but such that
Speaker 1: you ended up spending two and a half years in
Speaker 1: juvenile prison in Texas.
Speaker 2: So this all started in the Longview area in Texas.
Speaker 2: Clinton just got out of juvenile prison and I think
Speaker 2: that traumatized him heavily, and he got addicted to drugs
Speaker 2: and started hanging out with the people that you don't
Speaker 2: want your kids to hang out with. Mark Ray, David Page,
Speaker 2: and Darnell McCoy, his co defendants in this case. One
Speaker 2: day in November two thousand and one, David Page, Darnell McCoy,
Speaker 2: Mark Ray, Clinton, and Doyle Douglas were all sitting in
Speaker 2: a car and they were on their way to buy drugs.
Speaker 2: Clinton was sitting in the passenger seat and Doyle Douglas
Speaker 2: was driving the car. It was his car, and the
Speaker 2: other three were sitting in a back And as soon
Speaker 2: as they arrived at the house where they were going
Speaker 2: to buy drugs, David Page got out of the car
Speaker 2: got up to the front door of the house. There
Speaker 2: was some confusion there was no drugs. They didn't buy drugs.
Speaker 2: And David Page walks back to the car and he's
Speaker 2: standing on the left side of the car. Clinton is
Speaker 2: still sitting inside on the passenger seat, and at that
Speaker 2: point Doyle Douglas gets shot in the head twice. David
Speaker 2: Page has always said that Clinton was someone who did it,
Speaker 2: and Clinton has always said that no, David Page did them.
Speaker 1: And it's important to note that it doesn't really matter
Speaker 1: what David Page said because Doyle Douglas is head wound.
Speaker 1: Support Clinton's version of advance.
Speaker 3: All sit in the pass and see the car, though
Speaker 3: Douglas was sitting in the driver's seat of the car,
Speaker 3: and they said I saw the flakes in the head.
Speaker 3: There's no way I could have because he was shot
Speaker 3: in the left side of the head, in the back
Speaker 3: of the head. How cats she the person that lifts
Speaker 3: side of the head and over three feet away if
Speaker 3: I'm in the passioner side of the car.
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. So there isn't an opportunity really to agree
Speaker 1: or disagree about this gunshot when you'd have to suspend
Speaker 1: all this.
Speaker 2: What they all agree on was that after that happened,
Speaker 2: the body of Doyle Douglas was put in a trunk
Speaker 2: and they drove to a secluded area in the woods
Speaker 2: where the body was dumped and Mark Ray shot Doyle
Speaker 2: Douglas a third time in the head. Now after that,
Speaker 2: they all get in the car Doyle Douglas's car, and
Speaker 2: Darnell McCoy and Mark Ray are dropped off at their
Speaker 2: homes while Clinton and David Page drive off and Clint
Speaker 2: was going to go see his girlfriend who was at
Speaker 2: that time in Midland on the other side of Texas,
Speaker 2: and David Page decided to ride along with him, and
Speaker 2: after a few hours in the car, David Page didn't
Speaker 2: want to drive around in Doyle Douglas's car, so he
Speaker 2: decides he needs a new vehicle. They stop at a
Speaker 2: Berkshire store parking lot and a man named Samuel Petrie
Speaker 2: is kidnapp and his car is taken, and, according to
Speaker 2: David Page's own most recent confession, as he walked up
Speaker 2: to Samuel Petrie's car, hold him at gunpoint and said
Speaker 2: you're coming with us?
Speaker 1: And Clinton, did you know this was happening?
Speaker 3: I just fee him kidnapped. I was inside the store
Speaker 3: and I walked out and David Page was sitting in
Speaker 3: the truck talked about that. What's up, and He's like, well,
Speaker 3: we needed a big and so I got back in
Speaker 3: the car and I got David Page's gun and I
Speaker 3: emptied it. And I even told mister Petrie. I said, look, man,
Speaker 3: trying to figure the situation down. I said, look, don't
Speaker 3: worry about nothing. That guns empty, man. Okay. He's like,
Speaker 3: I don't understand. I said, look, man, the situation got
Speaker 3: out of control. We've got to just try to saw
Speaker 3: everything out. Okay, but just relax. The guns empty. And
Speaker 3: by that time Page got back in the truck and
Speaker 3: I gave the guns back the Page, but I didn't
Speaker 3: tell him it was empty. I was just trying to
Speaker 3: figure out how the best resolve it and the best
Speaker 3: way possible it. I'm not saying I made the right
Speaker 3: choices in life or anything like this, but I took
Speaker 3: effort to make there's nothing happened to this man. I
Speaker 3: saw a sleep short after that. Right sometime period wh
Speaker 3: while I was asleep, he found out the gun was empty.
Speaker 3: I just woke up at Headland and I told David
Speaker 3: Page said, look, man, she keep pet this dude, go man,
Speaker 3: I mean, this shit needs the end. So I had
Speaker 3: to call my girlfriend on the phone and I told Page.
Speaker 3: I said, oh, man, I accidentally use the phone. I said, Look,
Speaker 3: nothing get happened to this dude. He said, they're gonna
Speaker 3: trace it back on us. In my mind, I thought
Speaker 3: I was doing the smart thing right, trying to protect Petrie.
Speaker 3: I talked to my Eggs and she says that the
Speaker 3: police are looking for David Page. And I looked over
Speaker 3: the Page. I said, hey, they say you need to
Speaker 3: talk to your dad because the textans ringers are looking
Speaker 3: for you. And he said for what, And I said,
Speaker 3: but it start to happen, he texted her, I guess.
Speaker 3: And when I said that, the irons get big and
Speaker 3: he snaps his head and looks back at seeing of Petrie.
Speaker 3: What I found out later was while I was asleep,
Speaker 3: he's sitting there talking to this guy about this whole
Speaker 3: life story, and he told them all kinds of stuff
Speaker 3: about him. So if I go back to sleep and
Speaker 3: I woke up with the gunshots, Clint.
Speaker 2: Was asleep at the time that David Page pulled over
Speaker 2: at the oil field and the gunshots woke him up.
Speaker 2: And that's actually confirmed by several people who were in
Speaker 2: the Mintley County jail with David Page before trial, but
Speaker 2: also in twenty ten when Clint had an evident Sherry
Speaker 2: hearing and David Page was bragging about the murder, how
Speaker 2: he killed Samuel Petrie, and how he put all the
Speaker 2: name on Clinton, and how Clint was actually a sleep.
Speaker 3: I woke up with the gunshots. I dumped ovand I
Speaker 3: ran back there. The pantry was laying on the ground
Speaker 3: and he was standing there, and I was like, man,
Speaker 3: what the fuck. I was tossing them out, basically saying
Speaker 3: like I gave my word, nothing's going to happen to
Speaker 3: this guy now. I said, Man, you're supposed to let
Speaker 3: him go. And he kept saying he knew too much,
Speaker 3: he knew too much, that he knew my name, he
Speaker 3: knew my name.
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.
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Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light
Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and
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Speaker 1: the AIG pro bono program provides free legal services and
Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals.
Speaker 2: Several hours later, unfortunately, mister Petrie is found shot dead
Speaker 2: in the head in an oil field. Data Page goes
Speaker 2: to the place, turns himself in and says that Clint
Speaker 2: was the one who did both murders, and Clinton later
Speaker 2: gets arrested in Midlands.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if anyone knows how they
Speaker 1: would react if they were in Clinton's shoes. He was
Speaker 1: dealing with somebody whom he knew to be extremely violent
Speaker 1: and capable of murdering him, murder one person ultimately a second,
Speaker 1: and I don't envy him being in that situation. And
Speaker 1: we know that so often in these situations, the person
Speaker 1: who goes and then points the finger at somebody else
Speaker 1: gets better treatment. So Page goes to the police and
Speaker 1: puts all the blame on Clinton. But neither scene was
Speaker 1: ever really investigated. Right Minor states the cops never even
Speaker 1: went to the first crime scene.
Speaker 2: They did not investigate the first crime scene at all.
Speaker 2: They did not go out there to check anything. The
Speaker 2: only thing that they did is they took possession of
Speaker 2: the car of Doyle Douglas and they investigated the trunk
Speaker 2: for blood traces to confirm that Doyle's body was indeed
Speaker 2: put in the trunk, and that was confirmed. After they'd
Speaker 2: done that, they destroyed the car, so they didn't test
Speaker 2: it for a gunshot resident or anything to determine from
Speaker 2: which position shots were fired. They could have done a
Speaker 2: little bit more then, just investigate the trunk, but they
Speaker 2: destroyed the car after that, so no investigation can be
Speaker 2: done at this point. That's about as much as they did.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they destroyed the car at any other evidence
Speaker 1: in there what remained of it anyway, And luckily the
Speaker 1: ballistics and gunshot was from the first incident exculpaid Clinton.
Speaker 1: But for the second murder they didn't really do much
Speaker 1: of an investigation either. They took a few pictures at
Speaker 1: the brookshears, but didn't obtain the surveillance video, or so
Speaker 1: they claimed, the very same surveillance video that would have
Speaker 1: exculpated Clinton. Nor did they find the gloves that David
Speaker 1: Page wore when he shot Samuel Petrick until way later,
Speaker 1: and they only found those when Clinton told them to
Speaker 1: go back to the scene, something he did when it
Speaker 1: became clear that they were going to pursue the death
Speaker 1: penalty against him, because at first, when David Page pointed
Speaker 1: the finger at you, they brought you in Clinton, and
Speaker 1: you knew how they operated and were not going to cooperate, right,
Speaker 1: You knew better than to cooperate, was what we always
Speaker 1: tell the audience. Don't talk to the police anyway. Tell
Speaker 1: us about that.
Speaker 3: They put me in one room asking question. I said,
Speaker 3: I want lawyer. They put me in another room and
Speaker 3: had a female to take them coming down and talked
Speaker 3: to me. I told her my name, my security number,
Speaker 3: and my address, properly identify myself and she don't answer
Speaker 3: me questions, and like I said, hey, I told you all.
Speaker 3: I wanted an attorney, and she goes jirk. I die.
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, you're not helping your situation like that.
Speaker 3: Talk to me, not crazy. So she storms out and
Speaker 3: they're playing this game or they opened the door in
Speaker 3: another room diagonal. I see my ex girlfriend sitting there.
Speaker 3: They close the door. They opened the door again. I
Speaker 3: see my coldercenter sitting there. She comes back in there
Speaker 3: and she's all that, yeah, we got you, and he's
Speaker 3: telling us everything we need to know. I said, okay,
Speaker 3: I guess you don't need me. Huh. But I've dealt
Speaker 3: with enough cops. I know what. They try to sell it, right,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, okay, whatever, lady, I said, look, I
Speaker 3: don't know what the heard you're talking about. I was asleep. Okay,
Speaker 3: I ain't killed nobody. I said, look, test my hand,
Speaker 3: take my DNA, take my hair and samples whatever. I
Speaker 3: ain't kill nobody.
Speaker 2: So when Clint was initially arrested, he did not cooperate,
Speaker 2: but after it became clear that he was their intended
Speaker 2: target for the death penalty, he made a few suggestions
Speaker 2: to investigators that would prove his innocence, and at this
Speaker 2: point police only had taken pictures at the Berkshire's parking
Speaker 2: lot and had not obtained civilians footage that would have
Speaker 2: shown David Page kidnapping Samuel Petrie while Clint was actually
Speaker 2: inside the store, but that footage was either never obtained
Speaker 2: or conveniently lost. David Page had also told them about
Speaker 2: a seven to eleven where they had stopped, which had
Speaker 2: an unintended effect. They obtained civilians footage that showed that
Speaker 2: Clint had not kidnapped David Page, but rather when that
Speaker 2: Page was alone in the truck with the gun and
Speaker 2: Samuel Petrie for over eleven minutes. Surprisingly, the police knew
Speaker 2: that because David Page admitted it, and this clearly impeached
Speaker 2: a state's theory at trial that Page was kidnapped and
Speaker 2: under Clint's control. David Page could have done whatever he
Speaker 2: wanted in those eleven minutes if he was in danger
Speaker 2: from Clint, but he wasn't. Detectives to find to the
Speaker 2: existence of this footage, but the prosecution denied that it
Speaker 2: was ever handed over to them, so that was not
Speaker 2: present that trial. Now. Clint also told them to go
Speaker 2: back to the second crime scene and find the clothes
Speaker 2: that David Page had worn when he shot Samuel Petrie
Speaker 2: and to test them for DNA, But unfortunately the gloves
Speaker 2: were not used to the way this should have been
Speaker 2: a trial right.
Speaker 1: They could have tested them for gunshot residue and David
Speaker 1: Page's DNA, which would have corroborated Clinton's version of events.
Speaker 3: They sent the gloves to the crime lab, and instead
Speaker 3: of testing the inside of the gloves for DNA and
Speaker 3: the altsign for GSR, they requested DNA testing on the
Speaker 3: outside of the gloves, and the DPS lab was confused
Speaker 3: by the requests, so they called up the Midland County
Speaker 3: districturnys Off. There is a record of this. The expert
Speaker 3: at the DPS lab, the part of public said the
Speaker 3: crime lab tided, are you sure you want DNA testing
Speaker 3: on the outside of the gloves, on the inside of
Speaker 3: their gloves, and they also explained to him, look, these
Speaker 3: gloves were brand new. Who were about the gloves and
Speaker 3: the DA told them only do DNA on the outside
Speaker 3: of the gloves. So the ballistic guy was afraid to
Speaker 3: do GSR type testing because he knew the chemicals could
Speaker 3: destroy the DNA. So basically the way they've done the
Speaker 3: requests for the gloves, it made it where no proper
Speaker 3: tests could be done on the gloves. My lawyers had
Speaker 3: to request DNA testing on the inside of the gloves
Speaker 3: and it shows David Page's DNA well. The DA's office
Speaker 3: talked to David Page about the gloves and the lead residue.
Speaker 3: So David Page got on the stand and said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: those are my gloves. I worked in them all the time.
Speaker 3: I used them to move scrap metal, lead pipes and
Speaker 3: things like that. That made it with the gloves was
Speaker 3: of no value to me forensically, But the DA's office
Speaker 3: did not tell my attorneys that the expert had told
Speaker 3: them those gloves were brand new, and it just so happened.
Speaker 3: My COATA said had bought them gloves the ninth of
Speaker 3: November twenty fourth, two thousand and one, at an easy
Speaker 3: Marked gas station in Longview. Well in six my lawyers
Speaker 3: they got permission to get testing on David Bator's love
Speaker 3: and he come back saturated and got shot residue.
Speaker 1: Right, But we're getting ahead of ourselves, So Merril, how
Speaker 1: long was it from the time of Clinton's arrest till
Speaker 1: the trial?
Speaker 2: He got arrested in November two thousand and one, and
Speaker 2: his trials started in I believe in March two thousand
Speaker 2: and three. So Clint gets two court appointed lawyers who
Speaker 2: represented him, and the state's theory was that Clinton so
Speaker 2: badly wanted to see his girlfriend in Mittler County that
Speaker 2: he was willing killed two people in order to steal
Speaker 2: their vehicles so he could drive from Longview to Midland
Speaker 2: to go see the girlfriend. That was the state's overall theory.
Speaker 2: And there was no DNA evidence. There's no forensic evidence,
Speaker 2: no ballistic evidence that conclusively pointed to Clint as the shooter,
Speaker 2: so all the state had to work with was witness testimony.
Speaker 2: David Page said that Clinton shot Doyle Douglas in the
Speaker 2: head in the car. Mark Ray and Dardill McCoy confirmed that,
Speaker 2: and Mark Ray also confessed to shooting Doyle Dougas in
Speaker 2: the head when they dumbed him in the isolated area.
Speaker 2: Doyle Douglas had three gunshot wounds in his head. Two
Speaker 2: gunshot wounds came from the same gun, and then there
Speaker 2: was a third gunshot wound which came from a different
Speaker 2: gun on the right of the head. The third gunshot
Speaker 2: wound was inflicted by Mark Ray. So we're working with
Speaker 2: two gunshot wounds that were inflicted while everyone's still sitting
Speaker 2: in the car. How is it logical for Clint to
Speaker 2: shoot Doyle Douglas on the left side of his head
Speaker 2: and the back of his head while he is sitting
Speaker 2: on his right side and David Page is standing on
Speaker 2: the outside of the car on the left side. So
Speaker 2: he was in the perfect position to shoot the victim
Speaker 2: at that point.
Speaker 1: Right did did defense attorneys even bring that out for
Speaker 1: the jury?
Speaker 2: They do mention it kind of vaguely, but they do
Speaker 2: not point out well enough for the jury that that
Speaker 2: was the case. They should have done a better ballistic investigation.
Speaker 2: They didn't, and I think they should have better highlighted
Speaker 2: the position Clint was in and Douglas was in and
Speaker 2: David Page was in to show that Clint could not
Speaker 2: have been the shooter in the first case. All the
Speaker 2: jury heres is David Page saying that Clint shot the victim.
Speaker 2: Darnell confirms it, Mark Ray confirms it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So everything that they said about the initial gunshots
Speaker 1: that killed Doyle Douglas are actually confirmed to be lies
Speaker 1: by the ballistics evidence, which in turn offers an explanation
Speaker 1: as to why the rest of the narrative is so
Speaker 1: damn weak.
Speaker 2: Mark Ray, Darnelle McCoy, and David Page all said that
Speaker 2: Clint was forcing them to do all these things. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, Darnelle McCoy says all of them
Speaker 2: had guns. Then, how is Clint able to force all
Speaker 2: three of them by himself but all three of them
Speaker 2: have guns? How does that work? It makes no sense.
Speaker 1: Then, according to this wild narrative, Page volunteered to go
Speaker 1: and Young took Ray and McCoy. Home Page testified that
Speaker 1: Young told the group quote, if y'all squeal by the
Speaker 1: time I hear about it, your friend's going to be
Speaker 1: dead end quote, then we're supposed to go along with
Speaker 1: the narrative again, that Young called his girlfriend Amber Lynch,
Speaker 1: presumably to make arrangements to meet her and learn that
Speaker 1: her father, Bart Lynch, was with her. Bart and Douglas
Speaker 1: knew each other, and Young thought Bart would recognize the car,
Speaker 1: so he looked for another to steal in Weatherford, but
Speaker 1: was unsuccessful. And how badly does somebody have to want
Speaker 1: to see their girlfriend that they're willing to kill two people,
Speaker 1: kidnapped three other guys, all of them are armed. I mean,
Speaker 1: if the motive was to see his girlfriend, my guess
Speaker 1: is he could have found an easier way to get there.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And the whole motive doesn't even make sense because
Speaker 2: you're thinking to yourself, Oh, now I'm driving in a
Speaker 2: dead person's car. Let's kill somebody else so I can
Speaker 2: get rid of this car. You could go and kill
Speaker 2: people for days on end. If that's the theory.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say.
Speaker 2: That's a crazy thing. The jury bought the state's theory,
Speaker 2: and the weird thing is. I don't think the state
Speaker 2: believed it either, because David Page at Clinton's trial said
Speaker 2: that he was kidnapped by Clinton and did nothing wrong
Speaker 2: and that he was a victim in this case. And
Speaker 2: then right after the day trial they all got plea deals.
Speaker 2: Mark Ray got a plea deal for kidnapping with a
Speaker 2: fifteen year sentence, and David Page got a plea deal
Speaker 2: for thirty years on an aggravated kidnapping charge.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Normally kidnapping victims who witness murders don't get criminally prosecuted. Right,
Speaker 1: It's pretty clear that the state new Ray and Page
Speaker 1: were guilty, and we're just making good on a promise
Speaker 1: of leniency in exchange for their testimony. And Clinton, what
Speaker 1: was it like for you sitting there listening to all
Speaker 1: these lies?
Speaker 3: I frustrating because they're saying that I killed two people
Speaker 3: for their vehicles to go see a girl, and they're
Speaker 3: seeing people laugh and laha they see to lie. I'm
Speaker 3: looking at my attorney saying, man, he's lyne. He can't
Speaker 3: do that. He said, well, he just done it. Can
Speaker 3: you prove his line? I was like, well, no, I
Speaker 3: guess not right. They said, Okay, thought about.
Speaker 2: What you can prove the state did not preserve a
Speaker 2: lot of evidence. They destroyed evidence, they withheld evidence, So
Speaker 2: that makes it difficult but not undoable. And I would
Speaker 2: have gone out to the crime scenes and investigated them myself, right, like.
Speaker 1: Think loves that David Page wore when he killed Samuel Petrick.
Speaker 2: There were many many things that they could have done
Speaker 2: and didn't show. And there were witnesses at the time
Speaker 2: of the trial, actually at the Mintlan County Jail who
Speaker 2: hurt Paige confess to them. He confessed that he was
Speaker 2: the one who committed the murders, not Clinton. Those witnesses
Speaker 2: were initially willing to testify, but then got a visit
Speaker 2: from the DA's investigator and then decide it not to.
Speaker 2: Like I said, it's heart when you're fighting a state
Speaker 2: like that, especially with what we discovered later on that
Speaker 2: they were so actively working towards getting him sentenced to
Speaker 2: death and executed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, he was a convenience scapegoat for everybody. The
Speaker 1: prosecutors got to solve the case, right, the cops can
Speaker 1: move on, get it off their desk, and the three
Speaker 1: guys could get lesser charges for themselves. So everybody's a
Speaker 1: winner in this situation, if you could have a winner
Speaker 1: in such a situation except Clinton and so Clinton, without
Speaker 1: that evidence and with so many lies against you, you
Speaker 1: were convicted and sentenced to death.
Speaker 3: When they convicted me, I was devastated. Go I knew
Speaker 3: my choice was reading the life or death. That real
Speaker 3: people were telling me. All that I will give you
Speaker 3: death is you're young, you're good looking, you're intelligent, people
Speaker 3: love you. You're white, and I don't kill you. I
Speaker 3: pointed towards the jury. One day I told my Lord,
Speaker 3: I said, many those white folks think I done, then
Speaker 3: they're gonna kill me. And they looked at me crazy,
Speaker 3: and they said, why do you say that you're white too?
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, when I'm out there white. About two
Speaker 3: or three o'clock in the morning, I woke up with
Speaker 3: hearing the sound of the chains, the leg shackles to belly,
Speaker 3: chain and handcuffed, hearing the chains rattle and drag on
Speaker 3: the concrete. The gards knocked on the door, and there
Speaker 3: was a solemn event for everybody. You could tell like
Speaker 3: they all appreciated the severity of the situation. Right, they're
Speaker 3: shackling somebody else and center the death row and so
Speaker 3: I get in a van and as we're getting closer,
Speaker 3: we'll get to Huntsville, and he starts seeing all these prisons.
Speaker 3: And that's why I started feeling the way of the situations. Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm getting here. You know, what's this next done in
Speaker 3: my life? Going to be? Like we get to where
Speaker 3: they process everybody, and I get out the van and
Speaker 3: they know I'm going to death row. I'm walking up
Speaker 3: the steps. The guard says, hurry up, get him in here.
Speaker 3: If I had to kill him early, man, I needed that.
Speaker 3: When I heard that guard kill me, that that shit
Speaker 3: the tone for me right there. I realized that he
Speaker 3: was just playing around, but to me, it wasn't playing
Speaker 3: So that just set my mindset for my time on them.
Speaker 3: So as I hit the unit I was in the
Speaker 3: law library, I was fighting. I lived at them as
Speaker 3: my enemy. I never was delusion that they was my
Speaker 3: friend or that they cared about me or anything like that.
Speaker 3: You know, I always thought about what that guard said
Speaker 3: when I was walking up those steps, and so it
Speaker 3: just became a bigger motivator for me.
Speaker 1: So you're working your case in the law library to
Speaker 1: save your own life, and eventually Merrill joined your fight
Speaker 1: about a decade later. So, Meryl, how in the world
Speaker 1: did you find out about Clinton Young who was sentenced
Speaker 1: to death. It's almost half a world away in Texas,
Speaker 1: while you're over in the Netherlands, presumably leading a relatively
Speaker 1: normal life whatever that is, probably more or less the
Speaker 1: life of your parents envision for you, which I'm guessing
Speaker 1: is probably not this one.
Speaker 2: They definitely did not imagine I would move to Texas.
Speaker 2: In twenty fourteen, I was in law school in Rotterdam
Speaker 2: in the Netherlands, and I just got back from an
Speaker 2: internship in New York City where I interned for a
Speaker 2: defense attorney who was working on white colored crimes and
Speaker 2: representing people who took a lot of money from Wall Street,
Speaker 2: for example. And I was very interested in the American
Speaker 2: and criminal justice system. And when I got back in
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, I did some research and I watched documentaries
Speaker 2: and I read online about anything I could get my
Speaker 2: hands on. And I saw documentary about the death penalty
Speaker 2: in Texas, and clincy Yng was interviewed about what it
Speaker 2: was like being on death row, and he said, I
Speaker 2: did not get a fair trial. I'm innocent. I didn't
Speaker 2: kill these two people. And at the time I did
Speaker 2: not know whether or not that was true, but I
Speaker 2: saw the difference by looking at him, and he was
Speaker 2: so young, and he was sentenced to death at nineteen,
Speaker 2: and I started thinking about the clients that I helped
Speaker 2: in New York City who were very rich, would not
Speaker 2: go to prison, had a lot of money to hire
Speaker 2: the best attorneys, and Clint didn't have that, and he
Speaker 2: was on death row for a crime he said he
Speaker 2: didn't commit. And that contrast that really got to me.
Speaker 2: I kept thinking about it and decided to write him
Speaker 2: a letter, and yeah, he wrote me back, and that's
Speaker 2: how that story started.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the post conviction litigation, and the
Speaker 1: story doesn't get any less crazy here.
Speaker 2: So in twenty seventeen, Clint has been through the entire
Speaker 2: appeals process and he's lost everything, and they set his
Speaker 2: execution date for October twenty six, twenty seventeen, and that's
Speaker 2: when Clint's defense lawyers requested to do new testing on
Speaker 2: the gloves at the second crime scene. The clubs were
Speaker 2: previously tested for DNA, and they found David Page's DNA
Speaker 2: on the inside and Clinton's DNA was excluded. So we
Speaker 2: know that David Page wore those gloves. Those clubs were
Speaker 2: found in very close proximity to the victim, and they
Speaker 2: tested it for gunshot residue. An expert wrote a report
Speaker 2: on it and he said, I found gunshot residue. And
Speaker 2: given the location and the amount of the gunshot residue
Speaker 2: that I found on these gloves, I really only have
Speaker 2: one conclusion, and that is that the person who was
Speaker 2: wearing the gloves was at the same time also firing
Speaker 2: a gun. And the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on
Speaker 2: October eighteen stayed his execution because of possible false testimony
Speaker 2: given by David Page during Clinton's trial.
Speaker 1: Wow, so just a week before the execution. And there's
Speaker 1: some other information you got at that time as well.
Speaker 2: Right, Exactly a couple of days after, the Midland County
Speaker 2: DA Laura Nodolph sends an email to Clinton attorneys saying, oh,
Speaker 2: by the way, I did an interview with David Page
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. It's not material to the
Speaker 2: conviction at all, but here's a copy. Good luck with it.
Speaker 2: Clint attorneys listened to the tape and discover that David
Speaker 2: Page gives a confession in that interview and he says
Speaker 2: I was the one who kidnapped the second victim. So
Speaker 2: the Midland County DA's office withheld that tape to only
Speaker 2: give it to the defense team until after his execution
Speaker 2: got stayed. Would they have turned it over if Clinton's
Speaker 2: execution was not stayed? No, I don't think so. They
Speaker 2: wanted to bury that even though that interview alone would
Speaker 2: have given Clinton a stay of execution.
Speaker 1: They would have buried that, and they would have buried
Speaker 1: him exactly.
Speaker 2: The Texas scored a criminal Appeals gave Clinton an evident
Speaker 2: charry hearing finally in twenty nineteen on the possible false
Speaker 2: test money of David Page, and included in that hearing
Speaker 2: was going to be the withholding of the favorable interview
Speaker 2: and confession by David Page. Two days before that evidentiary
Speaker 2: hearing was going to take place, Laura Nodolph sends a
Speaker 2: message to Clint's defense human says, Oh, we just found
Speaker 2: some documents. We are probably going to end up as
Speaker 2: witnesses ourselves in this case now, so it's better for
Speaker 2: we recues. The evidence shows that Ralph Petty, who was
Speaker 2: an assistant district attorney for the Midland County DA's office
Speaker 2: for seventeen years. While he was prosecuting, Clinton had also
Speaker 2: worked as a paid law clerk for the judges who
Speaker 2: were presiding over Clinton's case, and in that capacity he
Speaker 2: drafted rulings for the judges on Clint's case, He decided
Speaker 2: on motions, he was interviewing witnesses. The list goes on
Speaker 2: and on. It's absolutely insane. So that was discuss hovered
Speaker 2: only two days before that hearing was going to take place.
Speaker 2: Very conveniently, i must say, because now no one was
Speaker 2: going to look at the withholding of that tape of
Speaker 2: David Page. Because the evidentiary hearing got postponed. Obviously, this
Speaker 2: was huge news, and clint attorneys filed a new red application,
Speaker 2: asked associate to reopen the case based on prosecutorial misconduct,
Speaker 2: and they did, and they held a short evidentiary hearing
Speaker 2: in January this year and in April there were closing arguments.
Speaker 2: And normally when you have closing arguments after an evident
Speaker 2: chary hearing, a trial judge is going to take a
Speaker 2: few weeks to decide on what recommendation he's going to
Speaker 2: give to the CCAP and Clint' attorneys obviously said we
Speaker 2: need a new trial. Judge, this is unheard of, this
Speaker 2: is outrageous prosecutural misconduct. Clinton never had a fair trial.
Speaker 2: The state, interestingly enough, first said well, we can kind
Speaker 2: of see that this is not great. However, later on
Speaker 2: they said, you know what, Judge, we actually think that
Speaker 2: Ralph Petty built an ethical wall between his work for
Speaker 2: Dede's office and his work for the judge. So really
Speaker 2: we don't see anything wrong with this. We should just
Speaker 2: keep the conviction intact.
Speaker 1: The idea that he was able to build an ethical
Speaker 1: wall in between his work as a prosecutor and his
Speaker 1: work basically judging his own work. It's like it's literally
Speaker 1: the wolf guarding the henhouse.
Speaker 2: The beautiful thing is the trial judge. He didn't believe
Speaker 2: it either. He didn't buy any of that. During the
Speaker 2: closing arguments, everyone sat what they wanted to say, and
Speaker 2: I was about to close it off because it was
Speaker 2: on zoom, and the judge, instead of waiting a couple weeks,
Speaker 2: immediately said at the end, mister Young, I'm going to
Speaker 2: recommend that you get a new trial. And everyone was
Speaker 2: just shocked. I was shocked. I was like, did he
Speaker 2: just really say that, but he did, so that was great,
Speaker 2: and that recommendation got sent to the Texas Court of
Speaker 2: Criminal Appeals and in September they completely vacated Clinton's conviction
Speaker 2: and death sentence, and in October he was taken off
Speaker 2: of death row and sent back to the Midland County Jail,
Speaker 2: where he is now awaiting his new trial.
Speaker 1: So, Clinton, in September of twenty twenty one, when you
Speaker 1: heard this, after all this time on death row and
Speaker 1: coming within a week of being executed, your conviction was
Speaker 1: being overturned. What was that moment like for you?
Speaker 3: Okay, I was sitting there talking to a friend of
Speaker 3: mine and I have been listening to the local news,
Speaker 3: but I didn't hear it. All of a sudden, Ricky
Speaker 3: Cummings are screaming at me, and he's screaming so loud
Speaker 3: I can't make it out, and I goes, what's up, man,
Speaker 3: He's got a convision over time. It is overtime, you cocas,
Speaker 3: And I was like, he already. So I was a
Speaker 3: lady that I was excited. Man, it was a great killing.
Speaker 1: So Clinton has been speaking with us from inside Midland
Speaker 1: County Jail for most of this episode, but In January
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, he was released on bond while
Speaker 1: he waits a new trial. So Clinton, what can I say, buddy? Well,
Speaker 1: come home. How are you feeling.
Speaker 3: I'm feeling good.
Speaker 1: You know. You know.
Speaker 4: I'm the first person in Texas history to get out
Speaker 4: on bond after getting a new trial off death row
Speaker 4: and still being under indictment for capital murder. It's never
Speaker 4: happened before. I certainly wish I could get out and
Speaker 4: do more, but being on house arrest, I'm limited to
Speaker 4: what I can do. So I must admit that this
Speaker 4: is the best jail cell I ever been in.
Speaker 1: Everyone here at the Wrongful Fiction Podcast and so many
Speaker 1: other people are just ecstatic about this news. So what
Speaker 1: does this all mean. What's the status of your case?
Speaker 4: Well, right now, it's in the review phase because the
Speaker 4: prosecutors they're new to everything and so they really don't
Speaker 4: know the ins and outs of the entire case. And
Speaker 4: sometimes a fresh setized is a good thing. There's also
Speaker 4: elections coming up, primaries and stuff like that to get
Speaker 4: in fact who's working on the case, and so everything's
Speaker 4: just really in limbo right now. This case is not
Speaker 4: the same case as it was in two thousand and
Speaker 4: three when I went to trial. It's not going to
Speaker 4: be fought the same way. The evidence it was given
Speaker 4: to the has been attacked so efficiently, and new evidence
Speaker 4: has been developed, such as forensic testing, co defendants confessing
Speaker 4: in part or bragging about getting away with murder. There's
Speaker 4: so much more this known.
Speaker 1: I think reasonable minds could agree that at this point
Speaker 1: the state should really just drop the charges. It's abundantly
Speaker 1: clear at this point that Clinton didn't kill anybody.
Speaker 2: We still want to make sure that we do everything
Speaker 2: we can to make sure that this time he receives
Speaker 2: a fair trial. So the Clinton Young Foundation, for which
Speaker 2: I am the legal director, has made sure that Clinton
Speaker 2: now has an amazing defense team. Dick de Garin, who
Speaker 2: has decades of trial experience in Texas, and Mark White,
Speaker 2: fantastic lawyer as well, are now representing him during his
Speaker 2: new trial. So the Clinton Young Foundation will keep raising awareness.
Speaker 2: We have to keep raising money to make sure that
Speaker 2: we can pay the legal fees because a good defense
Speaker 2: team onfortunate line. This country is not free.
Speaker 1: And I have to say Dick de Garren is a
Speaker 1: legend in courtrooms in Texas and even around the country
Speaker 1: for people who do want to help, how do they donate?
Speaker 1: How do they sign up? How do they do whatever
Speaker 1: they need to do in order to help.
Speaker 2: Clinton, Well, they should go to Linsayongfoundation dot com and
Speaker 2: we have a Facebook page, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, you name it,
Speaker 2: we got it.
Speaker 1: We're going to put links to all of that into bios.
Speaker 1: So please sign the petition, donate if you can, and
Speaker 1: even if you can't, spread the word okay, because together
Speaker 1: we can write this horrible wrong. And Now at Romful Conviction,
Speaker 1: as everybody knows do, we have my favorite part of
Speaker 1: the show, which is called closing Arguments. And Merril, first
Speaker 1: of all, thank you for just being a beacon of
Speaker 1: light and a force for good and for taking time
Speaker 1: to come and be here with us on Ramful Conviction today.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've really been looking forward to this,
Speaker 1: And Clinton, thank you for being here and for sharing
Speaker 1: your important story. We're hoping to see you fully enjoying
Speaker 1: true freedom really soon. So now Closing Arguments works like
Speaker 1: this same more or less every time, I'm going to
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, kick up
Speaker 1: the volume, and kick back in my chair and let
Speaker 1: you talk about whatever else is on your mind that
Speaker 1: we may not have already covered already. So let's Merril,
Speaker 1: let's go with you first. Then you can just hand
Speaker 1: the mic off to Clinton and let him take us
Speaker 1: off into the sunset.
Speaker 2: Well, Jason, thank you so much for paying attention and
Speaker 2: using your resources to highlight these wrongful convictions. Because it's
Speaker 2: not just defense lawyers who do the work. It's advocates
Speaker 2: like you who can also truly make a difference by
Speaker 2: creating awareness and spreading this news all over the country.
Speaker 2: So that is just such a huge, huge contribution and
Speaker 2: very important work. Heart this work can be and how
Speaker 2: rare it is that we win cases. But once we do,
Speaker 2: I really hope Clinton's case can be an example to
Speaker 2: other people to never give up hope, to never never
Speaker 2: give up the fight and.
Speaker 1: Now Clinton over the year.
Speaker 3: So I made bad choices in my life. They put
Speaker 3: me on past I shouldn't have been on. I have
Speaker 3: suffered an injustice. But one of the saddest things about
Speaker 3: this case is the concept of closure for the victim's family.
Speaker 3: The District Attorney's office convinced them that I killed their
Speaker 3: loved ones and that I was going to be executed.
Speaker 3: So not only have I gone through this process. The
Speaker 3: victim's family has gone through this process, and it's been
Speaker 3: traumatizing to them because they had this belief that there
Speaker 3: would be closure, that there would be this concept of justice.
Speaker 3: It's a false concept me personally, I was born into
Speaker 3: a life of chaos in many ways. I really didn't
Speaker 3: have a fair chance in life. And I say that
Speaker 3: what I want in life is that trinity of humanity.
Speaker 3: That's what I call it, to be loved, safe and free.
Speaker 3: And so people asking what I want, you know, I
Speaker 3: wanted to be able to get out and have that basic
Speaker 3: trinity of humanity, you know, to be loved, safe and free,
Speaker 3: and to build a live life, to do something productive
Speaker 3: in life. And one of the things that Death Rows
Speaker 3: did was it actually gave me life.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: I met a lot of great people down there that
Speaker 3: wrote me, a lot of people done things to help me.
Speaker 3: The documentary that was made about my case really helped
Speaker 3: highlight my story and the injustice that I went through,
Speaker 3: and it brought a lot of good people into my life.
Speaker 3: It wasn't telling me I was bad or her things.
Speaker 3: They was telling me I was good and then I
Speaker 3: could do great things. And I had this potential and
Speaker 3: it helped installed confidence in me that I had never
Speaker 3: had in my childhood. And so it made me focus
Speaker 3: more about my legacy and what I wanted to do
Speaker 3: in this world. And I don't want to just be
Speaker 3: a good person. I want to be able to do
Speaker 3: great things. I want to shape the world around me.
Speaker 3: I have a passion for helping other people. I have
Speaker 3: a passion for justice. A lot of people get executed.
Speaker 3: It should never have been executed. I've seen how broken
Speaker 3: our system is, how it favors the rich, are the
Speaker 3: politically connected. And so I wanted to have a family,
Speaker 3: be free, live life, and do great things in this world.
Speaker 3: If I get out today, I mean I have the
Speaker 3: life maybe that I never would have had before because
Speaker 3: of the people I've met. I mean, as crazy as
Speaker 3: it seems, people might not understand it, but worn to
Speaker 3: death Row gave me life and they made me a
Speaker 3: better person. It made me evaluate my humanity. It made
Speaker 3: me think about the people in my life that I've
Speaker 3: heard and I said. It made me want to do better,
Speaker 3: to be better and to accomplish a great things. I've
Speaker 3: got my division overturned, and I want a step closer.
Speaker 3: So I'm will tell how everything works out, and I
Speaker 3: want to thank Jason for this opportunity. Thank you.
Speaker 4: In addition to all that I've previously stated, now that
Speaker 4: I am out on Bond, I look forward to living
Speaker 4: up to my goals, being the man that I know
Speaker 4: I can be, and proven to society that I can
Speaker 4: be a productive member of society, and also showing the
Speaker 4: world that you don't have to throw away human beings,
Speaker 4: that we can change did twenty years later, we're not
Speaker 4: the same person. I look forward to action, not talk.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms. You can also follow
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts
Speaker 1: and association with signal Company number one