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Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, at age eighteen, Clinton Young

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Speaker 1: was newly released from Texas Juvenile prison and was the

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Speaker 1: youngest and newest member of a group of acquaintances with

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Speaker 1: David Page, Mark Ray, and Darnell McCoy. That November, Clinton

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Speaker 1: was present when David Page shot and killed two men

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Speaker 1: in separate incidents, Doyle Douglas and Samuel Petrie. After the

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Speaker 1: second incident, Clinton split from Page, who immediately went to

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Speaker 1: the police to control the narrative. All four men were

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Speaker 1: brought in, and while Clinton refused to cooperate, Ray and

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Speaker 1: McCoy joined Paige in exchange for leniency. When it became

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Speaker 1: clear that Clinton was being targeted for the death penalty,

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Speaker 1: he made suggestions to police that turned up evidence corroborating

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Speaker 1: his innocence. However, that evidence was either explained, ignored, or disappeared.

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Speaker 1: The state's case the trial relied solely on the incentivized

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Speaker 1: testimonies of Paige, Ray, and McCoy. The defense failed to

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Speaker 1: point out conflicting details and inconsistencies in their testimonies or

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Speaker 1: the ballistics in DNA evidence that corroborated Clinton's version of events.

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Speaker 1: Without access to destroyed or missing evidence that exculpated Clinton.

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Speaker 1: He was convicted and sentenced to death. While Clinton's appeals

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Speaker 1: were repeatedly denied. Growing evidence of Page, Ray and McCoy's

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Speaker 1: false testimony, as well as new forensic evidence exculpate and Clinton,

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Speaker 1: eventually led to a stay just a week ahead of

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Speaker 1: his execution date in twenty seventeen. Soon, David Page's confession

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Speaker 1: on the record, along with the revelation of significant prosecutorial

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Speaker 1: misconduct affecting hundreds of cases, including Clinton's, led the court

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Speaker 1: to overturn his conviction. But he's not out of the

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Speaker 1: woods yet. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: So often since I started making this show over five

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Speaker 1: years years ago, we do an episode where I go, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now I've heard everything, but now maybe up to today,

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Speaker 1: I can really say that because you're going to hear

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Speaker 1: some stuff today that is truly mind blowing, even by

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Speaker 1: the crazy standards of the rawful conviction cases that we

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Speaker 1: cover week in and week out. Because this case involves

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Speaker 1: an innocent guy who ended up being sentenced to death,

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Speaker 1: We've heard that story before. It involves an advocate who

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Speaker 1: moved from the Netherlands to Texas, so that she could

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Speaker 1: represent and try to get justice for our subject today,

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Speaker 1: Clinton Young, and get ready for this one. It involves

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor who was moonlighting writing opinions for the judge. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you heard that correctly. The prosecutor was making a little

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Speaker 1: extra money on the side writing rulings in his own cases.

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Speaker 1: So now I can catch my breath and introduce the

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Speaker 1: very woman I was just talking to you about. I'm

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Speaker 1: proud to say, Attorney Meryl Pontier, welcome to wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Jason.

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Speaker 1: And now fresh out of death row. Actually, those are

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Speaker 1: some crazy words you even have to say. And live

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Speaker 1: from the Midland County Jail, we have our featured guest today,

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Speaker 1: Clinton Young. Clinton, welcome to wronful conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Now to explain this to our audience. Clinton is off

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Speaker 1: the death row. Otherwise I'd be conducting this interview in

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Speaker 1: person at the Polunsky Unit in Livingston, Texas, outside of Houston.

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Speaker 1: But instead he's on the phone from Midland County Jail,

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Speaker 1: where he's a way to get decision about whether he

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Speaker 1: will be retried or perhaps released to a weight retrial

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Speaker 1: or the charges may be dropped all together considering the

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Speaker 1: story that you're about to hear, And I feel like

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Speaker 1: I really should give a bit of a disclaimer here.

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Speaker 1: As some of our guests have exhibited criminal behavior prior

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Speaker 1: to their wrongful conviction, That's definitely true for Clinton. I mean, he,

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Speaker 1: you know, who up in a very difficult environment. You know,

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Speaker 1: had a history of drug use and car theft and

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Speaker 1: different run ins with the law, all of which are

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Speaker 1: just background that ultimately led to him being present during

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Speaker 1: the commission of two murders for which he bears no

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Speaker 1: culpability other than being next to someone who decided to

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Speaker 1: make that grim choice to kill the same person that

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Speaker 1: ultimately pointed the finger at him. Now, by his own admission,

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Speaker 1: he could have done more to bring that person to justice,

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Speaker 1: But the fact is he did not plan or take

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Speaker 1: part in these murders. So while you may not agree

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Speaker 1: with all of Clinton's choices, first of all, you can't

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Speaker 1: walk a mile in his shoes. And two, he didn't

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Speaker 1: actually kill anyone. He's innocent of both murders for which

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Speaker 1: he was convicted. But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Clinton,

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Speaker 1: tell us about your life growing up.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess to still have my life and the

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Speaker 3: chaotic path. My mother was seventeen, my father was thirty five.

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Speaker 3: He lied about his age lot about having kid, ends

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Speaker 3: up pregnant, They get married. He was very, very very

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Speaker 3: abusive to her and his other children. So after she

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Speaker 3: has me, he continues to beat on her, so she

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Speaker 3: finally leaves. Matter of fact, my dad basically kidnapped me

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Speaker 3: from my mom and only would give me back to

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Speaker 3: her if she signed papers saying that she wouldn't request

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Speaker 3: child support and all this stuff. So fast forward some

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Speaker 3: time he meets my stepfather and they moving together. They

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Speaker 3: get married. I was hyperactive also, and eventually the school

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Speaker 3: decided to put me on add medication rhythming and they

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Speaker 3: didn't help anything. You know, it made me feel worse,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I had problems in school beyond that

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Speaker 3: growing up. You know, my stepfather unfortunately was an alcoholic

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Speaker 3: and I wasn't his son. But there's usually a dynamic

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Speaker 3: that takes place with stepchildren and stepparents is usually a conflict.

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Speaker 3: So then my mom and my stepfather are arguing all

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Speaker 3: the time because how he acts towards me. So my

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Speaker 3: home life was really.

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Speaker 1: Chaotic growing up well, that would be such a difficult

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Speaker 1: situation to grow up in for anyone from that environment.

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Speaker 1: You ended up with some run ins with the law,

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Speaker 1: and those were minor things, relatively speaking, but such that

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Speaker 1: you ended up spending two and a half years in

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Speaker 1: juvenile prison in Texas.

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Speaker 2: So this all started in the Longview area in Texas.

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Speaker 2: Clinton just got out of juvenile prison and I think

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Speaker 2: that traumatized him heavily, and he got addicted to drugs

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Speaker 2: and started hanging out with the people that you don't

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Speaker 2: want your kids to hang out with. Mark Ray, David Page,

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Speaker 2: and Darnell McCoy, his co defendants in this case. One

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Speaker 2: day in November two thousand and one, David Page, Darnell McCoy,

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Speaker 2: Mark Ray, Clinton, and Doyle Douglas were all sitting in

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Speaker 2: a car and they were on their way to buy drugs.

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Speaker 2: Clinton was sitting in the passenger seat and Doyle Douglas

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Speaker 2: was driving the car. It was his car, and the

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Speaker 2: other three were sitting in a back And as soon

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Speaker 2: as they arrived at the house where they were going

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Speaker 2: to buy drugs, David Page got out of the car

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Speaker 2: got up to the front door of the house. There

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Speaker 2: was some confusion there was no drugs. They didn't buy drugs.

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Speaker 2: And David Page walks back to the car and he's

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Speaker 2: standing on the left side of the car. Clinton is

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Speaker 2: still sitting inside on the passenger seat, and at that

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Speaker 2: point Doyle Douglas gets shot in the head twice. David

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Speaker 2: Page has always said that Clinton was someone who did it,

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Speaker 2: and Clinton has always said that no, David Page did them.

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Speaker 1: And it's important to note that it doesn't really matter

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Speaker 1: what David Page said because Doyle Douglas is head wound.

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Speaker 1: Support Clinton's version of advance.

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Speaker 3: All sit in the pass and see the car, though

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Speaker 3: Douglas was sitting in the driver's seat of the car,

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Speaker 3: and they said I saw the flakes in the head.

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Speaker 3: There's no way I could have because he was shot

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Speaker 3: in the left side of the head, in the back

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Speaker 3: of the head. How cats she the person that lifts

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Speaker 3: side of the head and over three feet away if

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Speaker 3: I'm in the passioner side of the car.

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Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. So there isn't an opportunity really to agree

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Speaker 1: or disagree about this gunshot when you'd have to suspend

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Speaker 1: all this.

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Speaker 2: What they all agree on was that after that happened,

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Speaker 2: the body of Doyle Douglas was put in a trunk

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Speaker 2: and they drove to a secluded area in the woods

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Speaker 2: where the body was dumped and Mark Ray shot Doyle

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Speaker 2: Douglas a third time in the head. Now after that,

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Speaker 2: they all get in the car Doyle Douglas's car, and

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Speaker 2: Darnell McCoy and Mark Ray are dropped off at their

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Speaker 2: homes while Clinton and David Page drive off and Clint

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Speaker 2: was going to go see his girlfriend who was at

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Speaker 2: that time in Midland on the other side of Texas,

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Speaker 2: and David Page decided to ride along with him, and

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Speaker 2: after a few hours in the car, David Page didn't

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Speaker 2: want to drive around in Doyle Douglas's car, so he

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Speaker 2: decides he needs a new vehicle. They stop at a

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Speaker 2: Berkshire store parking lot and a man named Samuel Petrie

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Speaker 2: is kidnapp and his car is taken, and, according to

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Speaker 2: David Page's own most recent confession, as he walked up

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Speaker 2: to Samuel Petrie's car, hold him at gunpoint and said

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Speaker 2: you're coming with us?

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Speaker 1: And Clinton, did you know this was happening?

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Speaker 3: I just fee him kidnapped. I was inside the store

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Speaker 3: and I walked out and David Page was sitting in

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Speaker 3: the truck talked about that. What's up, and He's like, well,

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Speaker 3: we needed a big and so I got back in

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Speaker 3: the car and I got David Page's gun and I

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Speaker 3: emptied it. And I even told mister Petrie. I said, look, man,

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Speaker 3: trying to figure the situation down. I said, look, don't

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Speaker 3: worry about nothing. That guns empty, man. Okay. He's like,

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Speaker 3: I don't understand. I said, look, man, the situation got

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Speaker 3: out of control. We've got to just try to saw

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Speaker 3: everything out. Okay, but just relax. The guns empty. And

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Speaker 3: by that time Page got back in the truck and

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Speaker 3: I gave the guns back the Page, but I didn't

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Speaker 3: tell him it was empty. I was just trying to

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Speaker 3: figure out how the best resolve it and the best

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Speaker 3: way possible it. I'm not saying I made the right

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Speaker 3: choices in life or anything like this, but I took

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Speaker 3: effort to make there's nothing happened to this man. I

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Speaker 3: saw a sleep short after that. Right sometime period wh

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Speaker 3: while I was asleep, he found out the gun was empty.

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Speaker 3: I just woke up at Headland and I told David

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Speaker 3: Page said, look, man, she keep pet this dude, go man,

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Speaker 3: I mean, this shit needs the end. So I had

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Speaker 3: to call my girlfriend on the phone and I told Page.

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Speaker 3: I said, oh, man, I accidentally use the phone. I said, Look,

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Speaker 3: nothing get happened to this dude. He said, they're gonna

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Speaker 3: trace it back on us. In my mind, I thought

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Speaker 3: I was doing the smart thing right, trying to protect Petrie.

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Speaker 3: I talked to my Eggs and she says that the

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Speaker 3: police are looking for David Page. And I looked over

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Speaker 3: the Page. I said, hey, they say you need to

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Speaker 3: talk to your dad because the textans ringers are looking

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Speaker 3: for you. And he said for what, And I said,

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Speaker 3: but it start to happen, he texted her, I guess.

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Speaker 3: And when I said that, the irons get big and

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Speaker 3: he snaps his head and looks back at seeing of Petrie.

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Speaker 3: What I found out later was while I was asleep,

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Speaker 3: he's sitting there talking to this guy about this whole

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Speaker 3: life story, and he told them all kinds of stuff

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Speaker 3: about him. So if I go back to sleep and

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Speaker 3: I woke up with the gunshots, Clint.

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Speaker 2: Was asleep at the time that David Page pulled over

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Speaker 2: at the oil field and the gunshots woke him up.

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Speaker 2: And that's actually confirmed by several people who were in

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Speaker 2: the Mintley County jail with David Page before trial, but

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Speaker 2: also in twenty ten when Clint had an evident Sherry

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Speaker 2: hearing and David Page was bragging about the murder, how

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Speaker 2: he killed Samuel Petrie, and how he put all the

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Speaker 2: name on Clinton, and how Clint was actually a sleep.

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Speaker 3: I woke up with the gunshots. I dumped ovand I

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Speaker 3: ran back there. The pantry was laying on the ground

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Speaker 3: and he was standing there, and I was like, man,

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Speaker 3: what the fuck. I was tossing them out, basically saying

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Speaker 3: like I gave my word, nothing's going to happen to

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Speaker 3: this guy now. I said, Man, you're supposed to let

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Speaker 3: him go. And he kept saying he knew too much,

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Speaker 3: he knew too much, that he knew my name, he

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Speaker 3: knew my name.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

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Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light

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Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

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Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,

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Speaker 1: the AIG pro bono program provides free legal services and

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Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals.

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Speaker 2: Several hours later, unfortunately, mister Petrie is found shot dead

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Speaker 2: in the head in an oil field. Data Page goes

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Speaker 2: to the place, turns himself in and says that Clint

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Speaker 2: was the one who did both murders, and Clinton later

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Speaker 2: gets arrested in Midlands.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if anyone knows how they

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Speaker 1: would react if they were in Clinton's shoes. He was

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Speaker 1: dealing with somebody whom he knew to be extremely violent

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Speaker 1: and capable of murdering him, murder one person ultimately a second,

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Speaker 1: and I don't envy him being in that situation. And

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Speaker 1: we know that so often in these situations, the person

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Speaker 1: who goes and then points the finger at somebody else

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Speaker 1: gets better treatment. So Page goes to the police and

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Speaker 1: puts all the blame on Clinton. But neither scene was

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Speaker 1: ever really investigated. Right Minor states the cops never even

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Speaker 1: went to the first crime scene.

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Speaker 2: They did not investigate the first crime scene at all.

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Speaker 2: They did not go out there to check anything. The

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Speaker 2: only thing that they did is they took possession of

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Speaker 2: the car of Doyle Douglas and they investigated the trunk

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Speaker 2: for blood traces to confirm that Doyle's body was indeed

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Speaker 2: put in the trunk, and that was confirmed. After they'd

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Speaker 2: done that, they destroyed the car, so they didn't test

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Speaker 2: it for a gunshot resident or anything to determine from

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Speaker 2: which position shots were fired. They could have done a

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Speaker 2: little bit more then, just investigate the trunk, but they

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Speaker 2: destroyed the car after that, so no investigation can be

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Speaker 2: done at this point. That's about as much as they did.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so they destroyed the car at any other evidence

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Speaker 1: in there what remained of it anyway, And luckily the

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Speaker 1: ballistics and gunshot was from the first incident exculpaid Clinton.

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Speaker 1: But for the second murder they didn't really do much

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Speaker 1: of an investigation either. They took a few pictures at

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Speaker 1: the brookshears, but didn't obtain the surveillance video, or so

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Speaker 1: they claimed, the very same surveillance video that would have

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Speaker 1: exculpated Clinton. Nor did they find the gloves that David

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Speaker 1: Page wore when he shot Samuel Petrick until way later,

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Speaker 1: and they only found those when Clinton told them to

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Speaker 1: go back to the scene, something he did when it

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Speaker 1: became clear that they were going to pursue the death

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Speaker 1: penalty against him, because at first, when David Page pointed

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Speaker 1: the finger at you, they brought you in Clinton, and

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Speaker 1: you knew how they operated and were not going to cooperate, right,

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Speaker 1: You knew better than to cooperate, was what we always

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Speaker 1: tell the audience. Don't talk to the police anyway. Tell

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Speaker 1: us about that.

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Speaker 3: They put me in one room asking question. I said,

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Speaker 3: I want lawyer. They put me in another room and

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Speaker 3: had a female to take them coming down and talked

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Speaker 3: to me. I told her my name, my security number,

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Speaker 3: and my address, properly identify myself and she don't answer

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Speaker 3: me questions, and like I said, hey, I told you all.

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Speaker 3: I wanted an attorney, and she goes jirk. I die.

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Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, you're not helping your situation like that.

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Speaker 3: Talk to me, not crazy. So she storms out and

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Speaker 3: they're playing this game or they opened the door in

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Speaker 3: another room diagonal. I see my ex girlfriend sitting there.

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Speaker 3: They close the door. They opened the door again. I

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Speaker 3: see my coldercenter sitting there. She comes back in there

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Speaker 3: and she's all that, yeah, we got you, and he's

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Speaker 3: telling us everything we need to know. I said, okay,

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Speaker 3: I guess you don't need me. Huh. But I've dealt

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Speaker 3: with enough cops. I know what. They try to sell it, right,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, okay, whatever, lady, I said, look, I

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Speaker 3: don't know what the heard you're talking about. I was asleep. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I ain't killed nobody. I said, look, test my hand,

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Speaker 3: take my DNA, take my hair and samples whatever. I

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Speaker 3: ain't kill nobody.

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Speaker 2: So when Clint was initially arrested, he did not cooperate,

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Speaker 2: but after it became clear that he was their intended

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Speaker 2: target for the death penalty, he made a few suggestions

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Speaker 2: to investigators that would prove his innocence, and at this

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Speaker 2: point police only had taken pictures at the Berkshire's parking

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Speaker 2: lot and had not obtained civilians footage that would have

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Speaker 2: shown David Page kidnapping Samuel Petrie while Clint was actually

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Speaker 2: inside the store, but that footage was either never obtained

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Speaker 2: or conveniently lost. David Page had also told them about

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Speaker 2: a seven to eleven where they had stopped, which had

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Speaker 2: an unintended effect. They obtained civilians footage that showed that

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Speaker 2: Clint had not kidnapped David Page, but rather when that

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Speaker 2: Page was alone in the truck with the gun and

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Speaker 2: Samuel Petrie for over eleven minutes. Surprisingly, the police knew

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Speaker 2: that because David Page admitted it, and this clearly impeached

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Speaker 2: a state's theory at trial that Page was kidnapped and

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Speaker 2: under Clint's control. David Page could have done whatever he

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Speaker 2: wanted in those eleven minutes if he was in danger

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Speaker 2: from Clint, but he wasn't. Detectives to find to the

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Speaker 2: existence of this footage, but the prosecution denied that it

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Speaker 2: was ever handed over to them, so that was not

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Speaker 2: present that trial. Now. Clint also told them to go

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Speaker 2: back to the second crime scene and find the clothes

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Speaker 2: that David Page had worn when he shot Samuel Petrie

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Speaker 2: and to test them for DNA, But unfortunately the gloves

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Speaker 2: were not used to the way this should have been

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Speaker 2: a trial right.

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Speaker 1: They could have tested them for gunshot residue and David

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Speaker 1: Page's DNA, which would have corroborated Clinton's version of events.

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Speaker 3: They sent the gloves to the crime lab, and instead

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Speaker 3: of testing the inside of the gloves for DNA and

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Speaker 3: the altsign for GSR, they requested DNA testing on the

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Speaker 3: outside of the gloves, and the DPS lab was confused

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Speaker 3: by the requests, so they called up the Midland County

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Speaker 3: districturnys Off. There is a record of this. The expert

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Speaker 3: at the DPS lab, the part of public said the

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Speaker 3: crime lab tided, are you sure you want DNA testing

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Speaker 3: on the outside of the gloves, on the inside of

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Speaker 3: their gloves, and they also explained to him, look, these

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Speaker 3: gloves were brand new. Who were about the gloves and

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Speaker 3: the DA told them only do DNA on the outside

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Speaker 3: of the gloves. So the ballistic guy was afraid to

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Speaker 3: do GSR type testing because he knew the chemicals could

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Speaker 3: destroy the DNA. So basically the way they've done the

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Speaker 3: requests for the gloves, it made it where no proper

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Speaker 3: tests could be done on the gloves. My lawyers had

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Speaker 3: to request DNA testing on the inside of the gloves

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Speaker 3: and it shows David Page's DNA well. The DA's office

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Speaker 3: talked to David Page about the gloves and the lead residue.

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Speaker 3: So David Page got on the stand and said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: those are my gloves. I worked in them all the time.

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Speaker 3: I used them to move scrap metal, lead pipes and

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Speaker 3: things like that. That made it with the gloves was

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Speaker 3: of no value to me forensically, But the DA's office

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Speaker 3: did not tell my attorneys that the expert had told

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Speaker 3: them those gloves were brand new, and it just so happened.

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Speaker 3: My COATA said had bought them gloves the ninth of

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Speaker 3: November twenty fourth, two thousand and one, at an easy

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Speaker 3: Marked gas station in Longview. Well in six my lawyers

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Speaker 3: they got permission to get testing on David Bator's love

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Speaker 3: and he come back saturated and got shot residue.

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Speaker 1: Right, But we're getting ahead of ourselves, So Merril, how

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Speaker 1: long was it from the time of Clinton's arrest till

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Speaker 1: the trial?

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Speaker 2: He got arrested in November two thousand and one, and

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Speaker 2: his trials started in I believe in March two thousand

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Speaker 2: and three. So Clint gets two court appointed lawyers who

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Speaker 2: represented him, and the state's theory was that Clinton so

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Speaker 2: badly wanted to see his girlfriend in Mittler County that

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Speaker 2: he was willing killed two people in order to steal

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Speaker 2: their vehicles so he could drive from Longview to Midland

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Speaker 2: to go see the girlfriend. That was the state's overall theory.

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Speaker 2: And there was no DNA evidence. There's no forensic evidence,

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Speaker 2: no ballistic evidence that conclusively pointed to Clint as the shooter,

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Speaker 2: so all the state had to work with was witness testimony.

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Speaker 2: David Page said that Clinton shot Doyle Douglas in the

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Speaker 2: head in the car. Mark Ray and Dardill McCoy confirmed that,

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Speaker 2: and Mark Ray also confessed to shooting Doyle Dougas in

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Speaker 2: the head when they dumbed him in the isolated area.

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Speaker 2: Doyle Douglas had three gunshot wounds in his head. Two

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Speaker 2: gunshot wounds came from the same gun, and then there

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Speaker 2: was a third gunshot wound which came from a different

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Speaker 2: gun on the right of the head. The third gunshot

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Speaker 2: wound was inflicted by Mark Ray. So we're working with

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Speaker 2: two gunshot wounds that were inflicted while everyone's still sitting

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Speaker 2: in the car. How is it logical for Clint to

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Speaker 2: shoot Doyle Douglas on the left side of his head

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Speaker 2: and the back of his head while he is sitting

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Speaker 2: on his right side and David Page is standing on

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Speaker 2: the outside of the car on the left side. So

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Speaker 2: he was in the perfect position to shoot the victim

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Speaker 2: at that point.

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Speaker 1: Right did did defense attorneys even bring that out for

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Speaker 1: the jury?

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Speaker 2: They do mention it kind of vaguely, but they do

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Speaker 2: not point out well enough for the jury that that

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Speaker 2: was the case. They should have done a better ballistic investigation.

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Speaker 2: They didn't, and I think they should have better highlighted

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Speaker 2: the position Clint was in and Douglas was in and

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Speaker 2: David Page was in to show that Clint could not

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Speaker 2: have been the shooter in the first case. All the

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Speaker 2: jury heres is David Page saying that Clint shot the victim.

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Speaker 2: Darnell confirms it, Mark Ray confirms it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So everything that they said about the initial gunshots

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Speaker 1: that killed Doyle Douglas are actually confirmed to be lies

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Speaker 1: by the ballistics evidence, which in turn offers an explanation

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Speaker 1: as to why the rest of the narrative is so

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Speaker 1: damn weak.

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Speaker 2: Mark Ray, Darnelle McCoy, and David Page all said that

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Speaker 2: Clint was forcing them to do all these things. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time, Darnelle McCoy says all of them

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Speaker 2: had guns. Then, how is Clint able to force all

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Speaker 2: three of them by himself but all three of them

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Speaker 2: have guns? How does that work? It makes no sense.

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Speaker 1: Then, according to this wild narrative, Page volunteered to go

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Speaker 1: and Young took Ray and McCoy. Home Page testified that

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Speaker 1: Young told the group quote, if y'all squeal by the

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Speaker 1: time I hear about it, your friend's going to be

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Speaker 1: dead end quote, then we're supposed to go along with

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Speaker 1: the narrative again, that Young called his girlfriend Amber Lynch,

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Speaker 1: presumably to make arrangements to meet her and learn that

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Speaker 1: her father, Bart Lynch, was with her. Bart and Douglas

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Speaker 1: knew each other, and Young thought Bart would recognize the car,

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Speaker 1: so he looked for another to steal in Weatherford, but

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Speaker 1: was unsuccessful. And how badly does somebody have to want

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Speaker 1: to see their girlfriend that they're willing to kill two people,

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Speaker 1: kidnapped three other guys, all of them are armed. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if the motive was to see his girlfriend, my guess

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Speaker 1: is he could have found an easier way to get there.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And the whole motive doesn't even make sense because

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Speaker 2: you're thinking to yourself, Oh, now I'm driving in a

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Speaker 2: dead person's car. Let's kill somebody else so I can

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Speaker 2: get rid of this car. You could go and kill

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Speaker 2: people for days on end. If that's the theory.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say.

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Speaker 2: That's a crazy thing. The jury bought the state's theory,

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Speaker 2: and the weird thing is. I don't think the state

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Speaker 2: believed it either, because David Page at Clinton's trial said

434
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: that he was kidnapped by Clinton and did nothing wrong

435
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 2: and that he was a victim in this case. And

436
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: then right after the day trial they all got plea deals.

437
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: Mark Ray got a plea deal for kidnapping with a

438
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: fifteen year sentence, and David Page got a plea deal

439
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 2: for thirty years on an aggravated kidnapping charge.

440
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Normally kidnapping victims who witness murders don't get criminally prosecuted. Right,

441
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: It's pretty clear that the state new Ray and Page

442
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: were guilty, and we're just making good on a promise

443
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: of leniency in exchange for their testimony. And Clinton, what

444
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: was it like for you sitting there listening to all

445
00:23:58,280 --> 00:23:58,959
Speaker 1: these lies?

446
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 3: I frustrating because they're saying that I killed two people

447
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 3: for their vehicles to go see a girl, and they're

448
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 3: seeing people laugh and laha they see to lie. I'm

449
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 3: looking at my attorney saying, man, he's lyne. He can't

450
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 3: do that. He said, well, he just done it. Can

451
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 3: you prove his line? I was like, well, no, I

452
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 3: guess not right. They said, Okay, thought about.

453
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: What you can prove the state did not preserve a

454
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: lot of evidence. They destroyed evidence, they withheld evidence, So

455
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: that makes it difficult but not undoable. And I would

456
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: have gone out to the crime scenes and investigated them myself, right, like.

457
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: Think loves that David Page wore when he killed Samuel Petrick.

458
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 2: There were many many things that they could have done

459
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: and didn't show. And there were witnesses at the time

460
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: of the trial, actually at the Mintlan County Jail who

461
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: hurt Paige confess to them. He confessed that he was

462
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: the one who committed the murders, not Clinton. Those witnesses

463
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: were initially willing to testify, but then got a visit

464
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 2: from the DA's investigator and then decide it not to.

465
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: Like I said, it's heart when you're fighting a state

466
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: like that, especially with what we discovered later on that

467
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: they were so actively working towards getting him sentenced to

468
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: death and executed.

469
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, he was a convenience scapegoat for everybody. The

470
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: prosecutors got to solve the case, right, the cops can

471
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: move on, get it off their desk, and the three

472
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: guys could get lesser charges for themselves. So everybody's a

473
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: winner in this situation, if you could have a winner

474
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: in such a situation except Clinton and so Clinton, without

475
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: that evidence and with so many lies against you, you

476
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: were convicted and sentenced to death.

477
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: When they convicted me, I was devastated. Go I knew

478
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 3: my choice was reading the life or death. That real

479
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 3: people were telling me. All that I will give you

480
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 3: death is you're young, you're good looking, you're intelligent, people

481
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: love you. You're white, and I don't kill you. I

482
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 3: pointed towards the jury. One day I told my Lord,

483
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 3: I said, many those white folks think I done, then

484
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 3: they're gonna kill me. And they looked at me crazy,

485
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: and they said, why do you say that you're white too?

486
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, when I'm out there white. About two

487
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 3: or three o'clock in the morning, I woke up with

488
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: hearing the sound of the chains, the leg shackles to belly,

489
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 3: chain and handcuffed, hearing the chains rattle and drag on

490
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 3: the concrete. The gards knocked on the door, and there

491
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 3: was a solemn event for everybody. You could tell like

492
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 3: they all appreciated the severity of the situation. Right, they're

493
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: shackling somebody else and center the death row and so

494
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: I get in a van and as we're getting closer,

495
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: we'll get to Huntsville, and he starts seeing all these prisons.

496
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: And that's why I started feeling the way of the situations. Okay,

497
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: I'm getting here. You know, what's this next done in

498
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: my life? Going to be? Like we get to where

499
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: they process everybody, and I get out the van and

500
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 3: they know I'm going to death row. I'm walking up

501
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: the steps. The guard says, hurry up, get him in here.

502
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: If I had to kill him early, man, I needed that.

503
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: When I heard that guard kill me, that that shit

504
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 3: the tone for me right there. I realized that he

505
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 3: was just playing around, but to me, it wasn't playing

506
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: So that just set my mindset for my time on them.

507
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: So as I hit the unit I was in the

508
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 3: law library, I was fighting. I lived at them as

509
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 3: my enemy. I never was delusion that they was my

510
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 3: friend or that they cared about me or anything like that.

511
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: You know, I always thought about what that guard said

512
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 3: when I was walking up those steps, and so it

513
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 3: just became a bigger motivator for me.

514
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: So you're working your case in the law library to

515
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: save your own life, and eventually Merrill joined your fight

516
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: about a decade later. So, Meryl, how in the world

517
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: did you find out about Clinton Young who was sentenced

518
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: to death. It's almost half a world away in Texas,

519
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: while you're over in the Netherlands, presumably leading a relatively

520
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: normal life whatever that is, probably more or less the

521
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: life of your parents envision for you, which I'm guessing

522
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: is probably not this one.

523
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: They definitely did not imagine I would move to Texas.

524
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: In twenty fourteen, I was in law school in Rotterdam

525
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: in the Netherlands, and I just got back from an

526
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: internship in New York City where I interned for a

527
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: defense attorney who was working on white colored crimes and

528
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: representing people who took a lot of money from Wall Street,

529
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: for example. And I was very interested in the American

530
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: and criminal justice system. And when I got back in

531
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, I did some research and I watched documentaries

532
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: and I read online about anything I could get my

533
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: hands on. And I saw documentary about the death penalty

534
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: in Texas, and clincy Yng was interviewed about what it

535
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: was like being on death row, and he said, I

536
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: did not get a fair trial. I'm innocent. I didn't

537
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: kill these two people. And at the time I did

538
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: not know whether or not that was true, but I

539
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: saw the difference by looking at him, and he was

540
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: so young, and he was sentenced to death at nineteen,

541
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: and I started thinking about the clients that I helped

542
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 2: in New York City who were very rich, would not

543
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: go to prison, had a lot of money to hire

544
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: the best attorneys, and Clint didn't have that, and he

545
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: was on death row for a crime he said he

546
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: didn't commit. And that contrast that really got to me.

547
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: I kept thinking about it and decided to write him

548
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: a letter, and yeah, he wrote me back, and that's

549
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: how that story started.

550
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the post conviction litigation, and the

551
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: story doesn't get any less crazy here.

552
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: So in twenty seventeen, Clint has been through the entire

553
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: appeals process and he's lost everything, and they set his

554
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: execution date for October twenty six, twenty seventeen, and that's

555
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: when Clint's defense lawyers requested to do new testing on

556
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: the gloves at the second crime scene. The clubs were

557
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 2: previously tested for DNA, and they found David Page's DNA

558
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: on the inside and Clinton's DNA was excluded. So we

559
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: know that David Page wore those gloves. Those clubs were

560
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: found in very close proximity to the victim, and they

561
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: tested it for gunshot residue. An expert wrote a report

562
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: on it and he said, I found gunshot residue. And

563
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: given the location and the amount of the gunshot residue

564
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: that I found on these gloves, I really only have

565
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: one conclusion, and that is that the person who was

566
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: wearing the gloves was at the same time also firing

567
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: a gun. And the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on

568
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: October eighteen stayed his execution because of possible false testimony

569
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: given by David Page during Clinton's trial.

570
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: Wow, so just a week before the execution. And there's

571
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: some other information you got at that time as well.

572
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: Right, Exactly a couple of days after, the Midland County

573
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: DA Laura Nodolph sends an email to Clinton attorneys saying, oh,

574
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: by the way, I did an interview with David Page

575
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. It's not material to the

576
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: conviction at all, but here's a copy. Good luck with it.

577
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: Clint attorneys listened to the tape and discover that David

578
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: Page gives a confession in that interview and he says

579
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: I was the one who kidnapped the second victim. So

580
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: the Midland County DA's office withheld that tape to only

581
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: give it to the defense team until after his execution

582
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: got stayed. Would they have turned it over if Clinton's

583
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: execution was not stayed? No, I don't think so. They

584
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: wanted to bury that even though that interview alone would

585
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: have given Clinton a stay of execution.

586
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: They would have buried that, and they would have buried

587
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: him exactly.

588
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: The Texas scored a criminal Appeals gave Clinton an evident

589
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: charry hearing finally in twenty nineteen on the possible false

590
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: test money of David Page, and included in that hearing

591
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: was going to be the withholding of the favorable interview

592
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: and confession by David Page. Two days before that evidentiary

593
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: hearing was going to take place, Laura Nodolph sends a

594
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: message to Clint's defense human says, Oh, we just found

595
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: some documents. We are probably going to end up as

596
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: witnesses ourselves in this case now, so it's better for

597
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: we recues. The evidence shows that Ralph Petty, who was

598
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: an assistant district attorney for the Midland County DA's office

599
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: for seventeen years. While he was prosecuting, Clinton had also

600
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: worked as a paid law clerk for the judges who

601
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: were presiding over Clinton's case, and in that capacity he

602
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: drafted rulings for the judges on Clint's case, He decided

603
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: on motions, he was interviewing witnesses. The list goes on

604
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: and on. It's absolutely insane. So that was discuss hovered

605
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: only two days before that hearing was going to take place.

606
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 2: Very conveniently, i must say, because now no one was

607
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: going to look at the withholding of that tape of

608
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: David Page. Because the evidentiary hearing got postponed. Obviously, this

609
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: was huge news, and clint attorneys filed a new red application,

610
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: asked associate to reopen the case based on prosecutorial misconduct,

611
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: and they did, and they held a short evidentiary hearing

612
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: in January this year and in April there were closing arguments.

613
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: And normally when you have closing arguments after an evident

614
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: chary hearing, a trial judge is going to take a

615
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: few weeks to decide on what recommendation he's going to

616
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 2: give to the CCAP and Clint' attorneys obviously said we

617
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: need a new trial. Judge, this is unheard of, this

618
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: is outrageous prosecutural misconduct. Clinton never had a fair trial.

619
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: The state, interestingly enough, first said well, we can kind

620
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: of see that this is not great. However, later on

621
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: they said, you know what, Judge, we actually think that

622
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: Ralph Petty built an ethical wall between his work for

623
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: Dede's office and his work for the judge. So really

624
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: we don't see anything wrong with this. We should just

625
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: keep the conviction intact.

626
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: The idea that he was able to build an ethical

627
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: wall in between his work as a prosecutor and his

628
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: work basically judging his own work. It's like it's literally

629
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: the wolf guarding the henhouse.

630
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,479
Speaker 2: The beautiful thing is the trial judge. He didn't believe

631
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: it either. He didn't buy any of that. During the

632
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: closing arguments, everyone sat what they wanted to say, and

633
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: I was about to close it off because it was

634
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 2: on zoom, and the judge, instead of waiting a couple weeks,

635
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: immediately said at the end, mister Young, I'm going to

636
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: recommend that you get a new trial. And everyone was

637
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: just shocked. I was shocked. I was like, did he

638
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 2: just really say that, but he did, so that was great,

639
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: and that recommendation got sent to the Texas Court of

640
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: Criminal Appeals and in September they completely vacated Clinton's conviction

641
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: and death sentence, and in October he was taken off

642
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: of death row and sent back to the Midland County Jail,

643
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: where he is now awaiting his new trial.

644
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: So, Clinton, in September of twenty twenty one, when you

645
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: heard this, after all this time on death row and

646
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: coming within a week of being executed, your conviction was

647
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: being overturned. What was that moment like for you?

648
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: Okay, I was sitting there talking to a friend of

649
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 3: mine and I have been listening to the local news,

650
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 3: but I didn't hear it. All of a sudden, Ricky

651
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 3: Cummings are screaming at me, and he's screaming so loud

652
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: I can't make it out, and I goes, what's up, man,

653
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: He's got a convision over time. It is overtime, you cocas,

654
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 3: And I was like, he already. So I was a

655
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 3: lady that I was excited. Man, it was a great killing.

656
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: So Clinton has been speaking with us from inside Midland

657
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: County Jail for most of this episode, but In January

658
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, he was released on bond while

659
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: he waits a new trial. So Clinton, what can I say, buddy? Well,

660
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: come home. How are you feeling.

661
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: I'm feeling good.

662
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: You know. You know.

663
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 4: I'm the first person in Texas history to get out

664
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 4: on bond after getting a new trial off death row

665
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 4: and still being under indictment for capital murder. It's never

666
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 4: happened before. I certainly wish I could get out and

667
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 4: do more, but being on house arrest, I'm limited to

668
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 4: what I can do. So I must admit that this

669
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 4: is the best jail cell I ever been in.

670
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: Everyone here at the Wrongful Fiction Podcast and so many

671
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: other people are just ecstatic about this news. So what

672
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: does this all mean. What's the status of your case?

673
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 4: Well, right now, it's in the review phase because the

674
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 4: prosecutors they're new to everything and so they really don't

675
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 4: know the ins and outs of the entire case. And

676
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: sometimes a fresh setized is a good thing. There's also

677
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 4: elections coming up, primaries and stuff like that to get

678
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 4: in fact who's working on the case, and so everything's

679
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 4: just really in limbo right now. This case is not

680
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 4: the same case as it was in two thousand and

681
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 4: three when I went to trial. It's not going to

682
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 4: be fought the same way. The evidence it was given

683
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 4: to the has been attacked so efficiently, and new evidence

684
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 4: has been developed, such as forensic testing, co defendants confessing

685
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 4: in part or bragging about getting away with murder. There's

686
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 4: so much more this known.

687
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: I think reasonable minds could agree that at this point

688
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: the state should really just drop the charges. It's abundantly

689
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: clear at this point that Clinton didn't kill anybody.

690
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: We still want to make sure that we do everything

691
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: we can to make sure that this time he receives

692
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 2: a fair trial. So the Clinton Young Foundation, for which

693
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: I am the legal director, has made sure that Clinton

694
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 2: now has an amazing defense team. Dick de Garin, who

695
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 2: has decades of trial experience in Texas, and Mark White,

696
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: fantastic lawyer as well, are now representing him during his

697
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: new trial. So the Clinton Young Foundation will keep raising awareness.

698
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: We have to keep raising money to make sure that

699
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: we can pay the legal fees because a good defense

700
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: team onfortunate line. This country is not free.

701
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: And I have to say Dick de Garren is a

702
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: legend in courtrooms in Texas and even around the country

703
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: for people who do want to help, how do they donate?

704
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: How do they sign up? How do they do whatever

705
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: they need to do in order to help.

706
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: Clinton, Well, they should go to Linsayongfoundation dot com and

707
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: we have a Facebook page, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, you name it,

708
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: we got it.

709
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: We're going to put links to all of that into bios.

710
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: So please sign the petition, donate if you can, and

711
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: even if you can't, spread the word okay, because together

712
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: we can write this horrible wrong. And Now at Romful Conviction,

713
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: as everybody knows do, we have my favorite part of

714
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: the show, which is called closing Arguments. And Merril, first

715
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: of all, thank you for just being a beacon of

716
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: light and a force for good and for taking time

717
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: to come and be here with us on Ramful Conviction today.

718
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: And you know, I've really been looking forward to this,

719
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: And Clinton, thank you for being here and for sharing

720
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: your important story. We're hoping to see you fully enjoying

721
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: true freedom really soon. So now Closing Arguments works like

722
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: this same more or less every time, I'm going to

723
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, kick up

724
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: the volume, and kick back in my chair and let

725
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: you talk about whatever else is on your mind that

726
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,760
Speaker 1: we may not have already covered already. So let's Merril,

727
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 1: let's go with you first. Then you can just hand

728
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: the mic off to Clinton and let him take us

729
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: off into the sunset.

730
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: Well, Jason, thank you so much for paying attention and

731
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: using your resources to highlight these wrongful convictions. Because it's

732
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: not just defense lawyers who do the work. It's advocates

733
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: like you who can also truly make a difference by

734
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 2: creating awareness and spreading this news all over the country.

735
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: So that is just such a huge, huge contribution and

736
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 2: very important work. Heart this work can be and how

737
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: rare it is that we win cases. But once we do,

738
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: I really hope Clinton's case can be an example to

739
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 2: other people to never give up hope, to never never

740
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: give up the fight and.

741
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 1: Now Clinton over the year.

742
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 3: So I made bad choices in my life. They put

743
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: me on past I shouldn't have been on. I have

744
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 3: suffered an injustice. But one of the saddest things about

745
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 3: this case is the concept of closure for the victim's family.

746
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: The District Attorney's office convinced them that I killed their

747
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 3: loved ones and that I was going to be executed.

748
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 3: So not only have I gone through this process. The

749
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: victim's family has gone through this process, and it's been

750
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 3: traumatizing to them because they had this belief that there

751
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 3: would be closure, that there would be this concept of justice.

752
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 3: It's a false concept me personally, I was born into

753
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 3: a life of chaos in many ways. I really didn't

754
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: have a fair chance in life. And I say that

755
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 3: what I want in life is that trinity of humanity.

756
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: That's what I call it, to be loved, safe and free.

757
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 3: And so people asking what I want, you know, I

758
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: wanted to be able to get out and have that basic

759
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 3: trinity of humanity, you know, to be loved, safe and free,

760
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: and to build a live life, to do something productive

761
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: in life. And one of the things that Death Rows

762
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 3: did was it actually gave me life.

763
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: Man.

764
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: I met a lot of great people down there that

765
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 3: wrote me, a lot of people done things to help me.

766
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: The documentary that was made about my case really helped

767
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: highlight my story and the injustice that I went through,

768
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: and it brought a lot of good people into my life.

769
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 3: It wasn't telling me I was bad or her things.

770
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 3: They was telling me I was good and then I

771
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: could do great things. And I had this potential and

772
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 3: it helped installed confidence in me that I had never

773
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: had in my childhood. And so it made me focus

774
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 3: more about my legacy and what I wanted to do

775
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: in this world. And I don't want to just be

776
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 3: a good person. I want to be able to do

777
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 3: great things. I want to shape the world around me.

778
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 3: I have a passion for helping other people. I have

779
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 3: a passion for justice. A lot of people get executed.

780
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: It should never have been executed. I've seen how broken

781
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 3: our system is, how it favors the rich, are the

782
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 3: politically connected. And so I wanted to have a family,

783
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 3: be free, live life, and do great things in this world.

784
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 3: If I get out today, I mean I have the

785
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 3: life maybe that I never would have had before because

786
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: of the people I've met. I mean, as crazy as

787
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: it seems, people might not understand it, but worn to

788
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: death Row gave me life and they made me a

789
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 3: better person. It made me evaluate my humanity. It made

790
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 3: me think about the people in my life that I've

791
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 3: heard and I said. It made me want to do better,

792
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 3: to be better and to accomplish a great things. I've

793
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 3: got my division overturned, and I want a step closer.

794
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 3: So I'm will tell how everything works out, and I

795
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 3: want to thank Jason for this opportunity. Thank you.

796
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 4: In addition to all that I've previously stated, now that

797
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 4: I am out on Bond, I look forward to living

798
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 4: up to my goals, being the man that I know

799
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 4: I can be, and proven to society that I can

800
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 4: be a productive member of society, and also showing the

801
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 4: world that you don't have to throw away human beings,

802
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 4: that we can change did twenty years later, we're not

803
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 4: the same person. I look forward to action, not talk.

804
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

805
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

806
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

807
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

808
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

809
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and

810
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

811
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms. You can also follow

812
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam.

813
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts

814
00:43:51,800 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: and association with signal Company number one