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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, Welcome to Counterpoints.

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Speaker 4: How you doing, Emily, He's so excited to be back.

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Speaker 3: Excited.

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Speaker 4: I'm so excited to have him back. And Ryan's back,

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Speaker 4: which means the giant Lenin book is back to just

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Speaker 4: haunting every shot of Counterpoints. But really, it's great to

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Speaker 4: have you back.

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Speaker 5: And you were in Vermont, which is is now underwater.

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Speaker 3: It's actually brutal conditions.

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Speaker 5: People can search they can't search threads yet, but they

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Speaker 5: can search Twitter or search online or reach out to

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Speaker 5: anybody in front. Brutal conditions. It's being compared to the

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Speaker 5: flooding after Hurricane Irene in twenty eleven. Montpelier, the state

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Speaker 5: capital underwater, just devastation, like top to bottom.

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Speaker 3: But really hitting the center in the south of the state.

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Speaker 4: Just a couple of days or a couple of months

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Speaker 4: of rain in the matter.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's what's scary is how fast it can happen,

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Speaker 5: because it was already saturated and then you had basically

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Speaker 5: a day of super heavy rain in upstate New York

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Speaker 5: and Vermont and the next thing you know, the streets

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Speaker 5: are turned into creeks.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, we'll be following that situation, will perhaps even be

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Speaker 4: covering that situation in the days ahead. We're going to

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Speaker 4: start by talking about the NATO summit, which has been

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Speaker 4: going on for days now, and some interesting developments just yesterday.

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Speaker 4: Then Ryan called this Tommy tuber Bill Store Tommy Turberville's

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Speaker 4: story too, my attention. So we'll be talking a little

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Speaker 4: bit about him in a back and forth about white nationalism.

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Speaker 4: He's also in a back and forth with the Marines

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Speaker 4: over military confirmations and abortions. So we'll try to break

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Speaker 4: down that story. What else we got today, Ryan, We've

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Speaker 4: got the Hunter Biden informant, which is an incredibly weird story.

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Speaker 5: It's such a great story because the guy who was

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Speaker 5: saying that he's a whistleblower that has evidence against Hunter

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Speaker 5: Biden found out to be a Chinese spy, which actually

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Speaker 5: might buttress his credibility.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure that this is going how the media

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Speaker 4: thinks it's going.

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Speaker 3: Funny.

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Speaker 5: People are like, Aha, this proves that this person couldn't

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Speaker 5: be a credible source about the whistle blowing he's doing

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Speaker 5: on Chinese influence on hind because he's a Chinese spy. No,

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Speaker 5: I think actually not good for him. No, because now he's,

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Speaker 5: as he says, he might be on the run for

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Speaker 5: the rest of his life. But it's actually probably good

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Speaker 5: for his case. We'll get it adprisingly, and then we

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Speaker 5: have the activision. If you see Call of Duty on

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Speaker 5: the bottom of our prompter there active the active vision

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Speaker 5: Microsoft merger has been challenged by the FTC, A Biden pointed,

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Speaker 5: judge is allowing it to go through.

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Speaker 3: They're going to appeal.

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Speaker 5: We're going to talk about that and what it means

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Speaker 5: for not just the world of video games and Call

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Speaker 5: of Duty, but what it means for anti trust policy

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Speaker 5: and also for union density in that sector, because there

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Speaker 5: was just a big union win all Sega workers becoming

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Speaker 5: CWA workers at big CWA election.

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Speaker 3: That we'll talk about.

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Speaker 4: Yes, there's a lot going on there. It's not going

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Speaker 4: to be Ryan and Me playing Call of Duty, but

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Speaker 4: hopefully it will be better. Andrew Tate sat for a

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Speaker 4: two plus hour interview with Tucker Carlson. We're going to

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Speaker 4: be breaking down some of the high highlights on that.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be talking about the meme of the summer,

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Speaker 4: Barbie Oppenheimer and in a way that I'm actually curious

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Speaker 4: to get you a reaction to. You're going to be

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Speaker 4: talking about the COVID hearing low lights, and then Turnoba

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Speaker 4: will be on the show once again.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 5: If you guys remember Chernobo, he's the Sierra Leonian report

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Speaker 5: who wrote a book on the Bola outbreak.

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Speaker 3: He is going to talk.

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Speaker 5: He's going to update us both on what he thought

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Speaker 5: of the hearing yesterday, which had a mention of Sierra

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Speaker 5: Leone and Bola, and also the deep regularities going on

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Speaker 5: in the Sierra Leonian election. We had promised we'd have

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Speaker 5: him on after that election and make them good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're looking forward to that. Let's start though, with

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Speaker 4: the NATO summit and developments out of Ukraine. You can

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Speaker 4: go ahead and put the first element up on the screen.

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Speaker 4: This is quite interesting. I'm reading from NBC News here

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Speaker 4: for a President. Donald Trump on Tuesday condemned President Joe

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Speaker 4: Biden's decision to send cluster munitions as part of a

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Speaker 4: new US aid package to Ukraine, warning that it could

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Speaker 4: lead to World War III. This is the Trump quote

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Speaker 4: you see up there. Joe Biden should not be dragging

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Speaker 4: US further toward World War three by sending cluster munitions

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Speaker 4: to Ukraine. He should be trying to end all caps

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Speaker 4: of the war and stop the horrific death and destruction

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Speaker 4: being caused by an incompetent administration. Now, Biden's argument, of course,

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Speaker 4: is that cluster munition are going to be what does

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Speaker 4: ultimately stop the war. That if you don't use cluster munitions,

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Speaker 4: it's not going to give Ukraine so the so called

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Speaker 4: sort of fighting chance that it needs right now in

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Speaker 4: the middle of this offensive. And this is Biden's quote.

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Speaker 4: He said, the Ukrainians are running out of ammunition. He

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Speaker 4: told Freied Zakaria this earlier this week. This is a

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Speaker 4: war relating to munitions, and they are running out of

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Speaker 4: that ammunition and we are low on it. So Trump

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Speaker 4: says response to more directly to that point, It certainly

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Speaker 4: means we should not be sending Ukraine our last stockpiles

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Speaker 4: at a time on our own arsenals, according to Crooked

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden, are so perilously diminished. Trump also criticized Biden

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Speaker 4: for potentially revealing confidential or classified information when he said

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Speaker 4: that we are low on munitions and that Ukrainians are

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Speaker 4: running out of ammunitions. Quite an interesting little back and forth.

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Speaker 4: As Sweden and Finland have joined NATO. Zaalinski is in

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Speaker 4: back and forth with everyone, seemingly right now with NATO.

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Speaker 4: He's said just yesterday that the United States and NATO

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Speaker 4: allies are present projecting weakness by not having a stronger

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Speaker 4: approach to Ukraine joining NATO in during the war, as

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Speaker 4: NATO signals that it's not wise to join in the

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Speaker 4: middle of the war.

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Speaker 5: It doesn't seem like Trump is necessarily divulging classified information

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Speaker 5: because you can learn Biden, yeah, oh oh, Biden releasing

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Speaker 5: classified But either way, if anybody said that we're low

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Speaker 5: on ammunition, you could get that just by watching this

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Speaker 5: show or by reading reading the newspaper. Like it's also

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Speaker 5: you can just get it by extrapolation, like it's rather clear.

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Speaker 5: And you're having people on background make the argument that

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Speaker 5: one of the reasons they need these cluster munitions because

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Speaker 5: they're running out of their regular munitions. So the gnarly

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Speaker 5: your argument, the more disgusting argument that you're hearing being made,

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Speaker 5: is that, look, Ukraine has already desiccated anyway, but all

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Speaker 5: of this land is already covered with land mines that

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Speaker 5: the Russians have used cluster munitions that are going to

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Speaker 5: sit there and blow up kids for cas to come.

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Speaker 5: So what's a few one hundred thousand extra cluster munitions

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Speaker 5: tossed around the bread basket? That's really the argument that

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Speaker 5: it's being made. And if I would just say to

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Speaker 5: people that if you're making that argument, like if you're

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Speaker 5: working that through in your head, stop to think where

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Speaker 5: you are and step back a second. That if something

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Speaker 5: so bad that therefore your arguments we got to make,

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Speaker 5: it's okay to make it worse, like you might you've

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Speaker 5: taken a wrong turn somewhere. Probably what will be interesting

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Speaker 5: to watch is whether or not.

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Speaker 3: Trump jumping on this.

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Speaker 5: Blunts the bipartisan momentum that was building against sending cluster

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Speaker 5: munitions over to Ukraine. Just at the end of last week,

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Speaker 5: Sarah Jacobs, represented from California, and Ilon Omar introduced an

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Speaker 5: amendment to the NDAA to say there will be no

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Speaker 5: cluster munitions transfers anywhere, not just Ukraine, but anywhere. If

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Speaker 5: you had nineteen Democrats that on Friday, you set a

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Speaker 5: letter of the administration makes been making basically the same point.

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Speaker 5: In order to get onto the floor, they need Republican support,

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Speaker 5: and so that started to come first in the form

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Speaker 5: of Representative Matt Gates.

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Speaker 3: Let's roll Gates here.

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Speaker 8: Democrat Congresswoman Sarah Jacobs, who we've criticized a great deal

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Speaker 8: on the show for some of the reviews. She's probably

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Speaker 8: criticized me a great deal for some of mine. But

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Speaker 8: she has introduced an amendment to the National Defense Authorization

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Speaker 8: Act that reads, notwithstanding any other provision of law, no

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Speaker 8: military assistance shall be furnished for cluster munitions, No defense

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Speaker 8: export license for cluster munitions may be issued, and no

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Speaker 8: cluster munitions or cluster munitions technology shall be sold or transferred.

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Speaker 8: And what I'm here to tell you is that I

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Speaker 8: am going to be the Republican co sponsor of the

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Speaker 8: Jacob's amendment before the House Rules Committee. We have an

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Speaker 8: opportunity with bipartisanship to stand against the war mongering bidence

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Speaker 8: and these cluster bombs will not end the war in Ukraine.

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Speaker 8: Let's look at the countries where cluster bombs have been

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Speaker 8: used Laus Lebanon, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria. Cluster bombs are features

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Speaker 8: of the world's bloodiest and most inhumane wars, some.

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Speaker 3: Of the longest. It's hardly the cornerstone of a path

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Speaker 3: to peace.

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Speaker 5: One side note on journalism Todays, I was working Monday

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Speaker 5: all day on reporting out this story, and I'm hearing

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Speaker 5: from Capitol Hill sources Matt Gates might be willing to

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Speaker 5: co sponsor this, and so I'm looking for extra sources.

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Speaker 5: He going to try to report this out. And then

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Speaker 5: somebody's like, I think he's saying it on his podcast

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Speaker 5: right now? What do you mean his podcast?

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Speaker 3: The world?

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Speaker 7: Is this?

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Speaker 3: What am I even here for? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Just go away?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like my role here is done.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, He's just gonna grab his mic and just break

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Speaker 5: the news right there on his little podcast, which is

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Speaker 5: I was still able to sort of break the news,

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Speaker 5: and like, I went and found his podcast and he

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Speaker 5: quoted his podcast.

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Speaker 3: But it's different than you know.

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Speaker 5: When reporters are getting in the Hallway talking to people

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Speaker 5: and getting news.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's uh, I don't know, man, what are

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Speaker 3: we even doing anymore?

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Speaker 4: This is the best news ever for people in Capitol Hill,

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Speaker 4: like members watching this, they're like Ryan Grimm gives up

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Speaker 4: on journals.

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Speaker 3: Done. I can't anymore with this.

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Speaker 5: But so so with Gate supporting Jacob's amendment, that means

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Speaker 5: that it has a better chance of getting through the

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Speaker 5: Rules Committee, but it also needs Democrats on the Rules Committee.

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Speaker 5: Good news for opponents here is that Jim McGovern is

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Speaker 5: the ranking Democrat on the Rules Committee. We talked about

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Speaker 5: him recently and he was going a little bit wobbly

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Speaker 5: on some sanctions positions, but here here he came through

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Speaker 5: for them.

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Speaker 3: Let's let's roll McGovern.

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Speaker 9: Either of you have an opinion of whether or not

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Speaker 9: the House should be able to debate the issue of

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Speaker 9: cluster munitions or not. But if you have an opinion

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Speaker 9: of love to.

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Speaker 3: Hear it with me, honest me too.

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Speaker 9: I mean I hope then, I hope it's made in

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Speaker 9: order we'll be able to have that debate in that vote.

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Speaker 7: Oh.

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Speaker 5: Now, I do have a role as a reporter here.

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Speaker 5: I can tell you that the people on the other

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Speaker 5: side of the camera. There were Mike Rogers and Adam Smith,

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Speaker 5: who are the top Republican and top Democrat on the

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Speaker 5: House Armed Services Committee, And so for mc governor to

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Speaker 5: get them on record say you know what, we're fine

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Speaker 5: with having this vote means that it has a better

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Speaker 5: shot of being quote ruled in order. What they adjourned

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Speaker 5: after about eleven o'clock last night, and they're going to

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Speaker 5: allow all of the uncontroversial amendments to go through on

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Speaker 5: an uncontroversial vote, and then for the rest of the

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Speaker 5: week they're going to hash out these controversial amendments.

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Speaker 3: So it's unlikely that you're.

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Speaker 5: Going to have a majority in the House that's going

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Speaker 5: to be able to block the munition's transfer. And also

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Speaker 5: it would be difficult to get the two thirds you

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Speaker 5: would need to override a Biden veto. But it is

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Speaker 5: I think the biggest concentration of kind of opposition to

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Speaker 5: any kind of Ukraine Ukraine arming policy that has threatened

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Speaker 5: to develop since the beginning of the war.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and we can go ahead and put the next

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Speaker 4: element up. This is Jensaki responding to questions. Obviously a

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Speaker 4: long time ago, because Trensaki has been gone for as it.

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Speaker 3: Was about a year ago.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, probably a little bit more than a year ago.

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Speaker 5: I guess like maybe spring early twenty twenty two, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: early twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Take a look, silence will be tolerated against civilians in

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Speaker 1: this manner that's illegal and potentially a war crime.

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Speaker 10: It is, it would be, I don't have any confirmation

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Speaker 10: of that. We have seen the reports. If that were true,

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Speaker 10: it would potentially be a war crime. Obviously, there are

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Speaker 10: a range of international fura that would assess that, so

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Speaker 10: certainly we would look to that to be a part

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Speaker 10: of that conversation.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's Jensaki being asked about and at the beginning

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Speaker 5: of the question, wasn't there, But that's her being asked

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Speaker 5: about Russia's use of cluster munitions, yes, in war, potential

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Speaker 5: war crime.

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Speaker 4: February twenty eighth, twenty twenty two, February twenty eighth. And

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Speaker 4: so will they still be looking to the range of

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Speaker 4: criteria that she referenced just there to determine whether or

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Speaker 4: not there was to determine whether or not there's a

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Speaker 4: war crime should this go ahead.

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Speaker 5: And the funny thing about this is that there is

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Speaker 5: a convention against cluster munitions that was signed in nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety seven.

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Speaker 3: More than one hundred countries have endorsed it, but I

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Speaker 3: guess it.

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Speaker 5: Doesn't count as the international rules based order because we

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Speaker 5: didn't sign on to it. China has not signed on

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Speaker 5: to a RUSH, has not signed on to it. Turkey

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Speaker 5: has not signed on to it. Ironically, Turkey playing you know,

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Speaker 5: every side in this war, has been sending cluster musitions

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Speaker 5: to Ukraine, so they have some of these already, So

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Speaker 5: those countries have not signed on to the treaty, which

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Speaker 5: makes it international in the sense that more than one

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Speaker 5: hundred countries have tried to ban cluster munitions because if

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Speaker 5: people don't quite understand how they work, they launch exploding

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Speaker 5: clusters and then hundreds and thousands of them in small

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Speaker 5: numbers spread spread across the field, and the ones we're

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Speaker 5: talking about sending have like a six percent dud rate,

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Speaker 5: which means that with the numbers that we're talking about setting,

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Speaker 5: there could be about four hundred thousand unexploded munitions in

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Speaker 5: the ground just as a relative a result of what

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Speaker 5: we send, not counting what Turkey sent to Ukraine or

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Speaker 5: what Russia is firing.

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Speaker 4: Well in Turkey. Is a great transition here back to

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Speaker 4: the NATO summit, because Erdawan had quite a showing at

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Speaker 4: the NATO summit, cleared the way basically for Sweden to

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Speaker 4: join NATO. Had a very friendly relationship with Biden on

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Speaker 4: display over the course of the NATO summit, and that

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Speaker 4: has been the NATO summit over the last few days.

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Speaker 4: I think it's obviously no coincidence that this conversation is

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Speaker 4: transpiring at the same time because there are new commitments.

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Speaker 4: So this is Germany, France, Norway at the NATO summit

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Speaker 4: announced new military aid to Ukraine. We can put the

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Speaker 4: New York Times element up here. They promised tanks and

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Speaker 4: longer range missiles. They so, I mean, that's obviously a

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Speaker 4: pretty big deal, just from their point of view. NATO

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Speaker 4: put out a statement saying that quote Ukraine's future is

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Speaker 4: in NATO, and you know this is just an attempt

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Speaker 4: as a show of force to say but without opening

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Speaker 4: the way for Ukraine to be NATO. As you see

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Speaker 4: here on the screen, quote conditions are met. When conditions

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Speaker 4: are met, that's when Ukraine gets its membership. This is

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Speaker 4: not good enough for Zelensky. But at the same time,

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Speaker 4: NATO over the last few days has been making a

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Speaker 4: very big deal to show solidarity and their alliance with

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Speaker 4: Ukraine stopping short of what Zelensky wants, which prompted him

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Speaker 4: to kind of lash out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we can put his lashing out here.

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Speaker 5: He posted on Twitter on the way to the thing

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Speaker 5: that the next element here and he says, you know,

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Speaker 5: he says, basically, we're still going to go to the

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Speaker 5: NATO summit. But then he says, but Ukraine also deserves respect,

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Speaker 5: he says, Now on the way to Vilnius, we receive

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Speaker 5: signals that certain wording is being discussed without Ukraine, and

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Speaker 5: I would like to emphasize that this wording is about

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Speaker 5: the invitation to become NATO member, not about Ukraine's membership.

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Speaker 5: It's unprecedented and absurd when timeframe is not set neither

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Speaker 5: for the invitation nor for Ukraine's membership, while at the

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Speaker 5: same time vague worrying about conditions is added even for

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Speaker 5: inviting Ukraine. It seems there is no readiness neither to

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Speaker 5: invite Ukraine to NATO nor to make it a member

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Speaker 5: of the alliance. This means that a window of opportunity

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Speaker 5: is being left to bargain Ukraine's membership in NATO. In

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Speaker 5: negotiations with Russia, and for Russia this means motivation to

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Speaker 5: continue its terror. Uncertainty is weakness, and I will openly

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Speaker 5: discuss this at the summit. So Zelensky livid that there

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Speaker 5: are conditions being put on even an invitation into NATO.

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Speaker 5: But the problem here is that if you're in an

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Speaker 5: active war with Russia and you become a NATO member, instantly,

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Speaker 5: all of NATO is at war with Russia.

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Speaker 3: And Zelenski has to understand that.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, he understands that, but he like again, this is

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Speaker 4: one of the things criticizing Zelenski. I think we criticized

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Speaker 4: Zlensky rightfully here a lot. The man, you know, whether

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Speaker 4: or not we can criticize him from the Western perspective,

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Speaker 4: is mired in war, and so from his perspective, it

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Speaker 4: makes sense that you would push for Ukraine to have

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Speaker 4: NATO membership, although I would argue it doesn't really make

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Speaker 4: that much sense because it's basically inviting even more death

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Speaker 4: and destruction to Ukraine into the entire region. So, you know,

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Speaker 4: and especially I think the amount of support that he's gotten,

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Speaker 4: not just from NATO but particularly from the United States.

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Speaker 4: Let's put let's roll this clip of Actually, Anthony Blincoln,

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Speaker 4: who was on the Sunday Shows, made his rounds on

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Speaker 4: the Sunday shows this weekend and had some comments about

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Speaker 4: this too.

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Speaker 11: Well.

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Speaker 3: It sends two messages.

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Speaker 12: First of all, our alliance is stronger, gets bigger with

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Speaker 12: two new members Finland and now Sweden, and it's more

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Speaker 12: united than ever. And in terms of Russia's aggression against Ukraine,

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Speaker 12: it's sending a very strong message to Putin that he's

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Speaker 12: not going to outlast us. He's not going to outlast Ukraine.

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Speaker 12: And the sooner he ends this war of aggression, the better.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I was wrong. That wasn't the Sunday shows.

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Speaker 4: That was CBS this morning after the new members admitted, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you sorry. I was thinking Biden was on Faried Zakaria

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Speaker 4: on Sunday, but blink in there saying he's trying to

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Speaker 4: do exactly that. He's trying to say, you know, we're

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Speaker 4: sending a strong message against Putin. But Zelenski's version of

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Speaker 4: a strong message against Putin is Ukraine admission into NATO

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Speaker 4: full stop.

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Speaker 5: And I have sympathy here for Zelensky in this sense

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Speaker 5: that and we reported on this recently on the show

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Speaker 5: that if you go back to the March twenty two

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Speaker 5: negotiations that were going on in Turkey between Russia Ukraine

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Speaker 5: and being broken by Airdawan. The basic outlines that we

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Speaker 5: understand now or Russia would claim territory that it had

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Speaker 5: had prior to February twenty first, so that includes a

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Speaker 5: little bit of the donbas in Crimea, and in exchange,

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Speaker 5: Ukraine would be allowed to have security guarantees from the

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Speaker 5: West that would kind of lock in that status quo.

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Speaker 3: But the West said, no, we're.

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Speaker 5: Not giving you those security guarantees, and so without those,

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Speaker 5: we want you to continue to fight and drain Russian.

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Speaker 5: Russian power is the Western powers according to this reporting,

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Speaker 5: like the way that this was going for Russia, which

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Speaker 5: was not as well as Russia to hope. You know,

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Speaker 5: that's seventy two hours Kiev had not fallen, et cetera.

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Speaker 5: And so this question of security guarantees, had it been

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Speaker 5: answered in March twenty twenty two, may have ended the

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Speaker 5: war at that point. Yeah, and so I can I

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Speaker 5: can see why you know this this further, this much

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Speaker 5: further into the war, after this much pain, misery, trauma

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Speaker 5: and bloodshed that Zelensky would be throwing his hands.

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Speaker 3: Up, like, what are we going to do here?

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Speaker 7: Right?

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Speaker 3: When is this? When is this going to end? When

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Speaker 3: are you going to get off the pot?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 13: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: No, I think that's exactly exactly the way to look

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Speaker 4: at it, because and again, that doesn't mean that Zelensky

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Speaker 4: is completely correct on a strategic level to say X,

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Speaker 4: Y and Z is best for us, But it does

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Speaker 4: mean that that sort of line that they're trying to

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Speaker 4: toe would be frustrated from his perspective. And also, I

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Speaker 4: think it's abundantly clear at this point. You know, there

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Speaker 4: were a lot of arguments made a year into the war,

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Speaker 4: six months into the war that Biden was you know,

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Speaker 4: from a bipartisan perspective, he was doing all right, that

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Speaker 4: is absurd to make that argument anymore. I think that

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Speaker 4: becomes more clear every single day.

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Speaker 5: All Right, So we got some bizarre Tommy two Reville

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Speaker 5: news this guy good lord. So I have a clip

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Speaker 5: that I want to help that I think helps frame

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Speaker 5: this conversation that we can get into in a second.

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Speaker 5: But can you set up the fight that he's currently

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Speaker 5: having with the military, because I think that that is

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Speaker 5: also some type of playing into this somehow.

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Speaker 4: Yes, So Tommy Turberville has Establishment Republicans extremely upset. He

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Speaker 4: has the Biden administration extremely upset because he's been blocking

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Speaker 4: senior military promotions that are confirmed in the Senate over

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Speaker 4: the Pentagon's abortion policy, which is they will pay for

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Speaker 4: their employees to travel for abortions. And so Tarbraville has

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Speaker 4: for a very long time said, we are blocking these promotions.

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to allow them to go through as

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Speaker 4: the Senate works, you can have one person sort of

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Speaker 4: coming up the works like that. And his argument is

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Speaker 4: that the Biden administration could drop this policy, like they

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Speaker 4: don't have to be funding abortion travel. So if they

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Speaker 4: are clinging to this idea that they're going to be

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Speaker 4: paying for abortion travel at the Department of Defense with

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Speaker 4: tax payer money, why are you blaming me? Why are

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Speaker 4: you not blaming the Biden administration. And the head of

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Speaker 4: the Marines was forced into retirement this week. I saw

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Speaker 4: forced into retirement. I don't know what the circumstances are

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Speaker 4: between going into I think we had something to do

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Speaker 4: with like it was nothing like super interesting or nefarious,

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Speaker 4: but retired this week and they needed to appoint someone

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Speaker 4: to that position. And so that's where this is all

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Speaker 4: coming to. A head this week because people are really

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Speaker 4: frustrated that they can't name a new head of the Marines.

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Speaker 4: While Taberville continues to block this, he says, it's not me,

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Speaker 4: it's the Biden administration. Conservative movement is rallying behind Mitch McConnell,

441
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 4: John Thune are not. They are really really upset about it.

442
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 4: And again this is all coming to a head. And

443
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 4: now that sets up the Tuberville CNN drama.

444
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 5: And to me, it seems like if Tubberville or any

445
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 5: other senator like wants to unilaterally kind of set policy,

446
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 5: that kind of intricate policy for the military, they should

447
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 5: run for president and become commander in chief. To me,

448
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 5: it's like, come on, get out of here, like, this

449
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 5: is not how we this is not how we run

450
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 5: a military. But anyway, so to the white nationalism question

451
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 5: that he has now gotten himself tangled up in, I

452
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:37,719
Speaker 5: wanted to play one clip of him.

453
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 3: This is from October of twenty twenty two.

454
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 5: This is at a Trump rally, which I think puts

455
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 5: into context some of the comments that he made recently.

456
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 13: Democratic Party they have a majority, they could stop this

457
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 13: crime today. Some people say, well, they're soft on crime. No,

458
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 13: they're not soft on crime. They're pro crime. They won't crame.

459
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 13: They won't crime because you want to take over what

460
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 13: you got. They want to control what you have. They

461
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 13: want reparation because they think the people that do the

462
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 13: crime are owed that.

463
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 7: They're not.

464
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 3: All right.

465
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 5: So here listen to that as context for a recent

466
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 5: conversation he had on a podcast where he said, some

467
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 5: people call them white nationalists, I call them Americans. So

468
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 5: he then goes on CNN where Caitlyn Collins presses him.

469
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,479
Speaker 5: You said, this pretty crazy thing. Can you please kind

470
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 5: of elaborate what did you mean by this?

471
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 3: And here he is on on CNN.

472
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: That's not identity politics. You said, a white nationalist is

473
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: an American.

474
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 3: Identity politics, you said, a white.

475
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 4: Nationalist is an American.

476
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: But a white nationalist is someone who believes horrific things.

477
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: You don't, do you really think that's someone who should

478
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: be serving in the military.

479
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 3: Well, that's just a name that has been given.

480
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not it's a real definition. There's real concern.

481
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 14: You're going to with most white people in this country

482
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 14: out of the military. We got huge problems. We got

483
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 14: huge problems, not people.

484
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 5: Who are white.

485
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 4: It's white nationalists that have.

486
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 14: A few probably different beliefs, right, they have that have

487
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 14: different beliefs. Now, if racism is one of those beliefs,

488
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 14: I'm totally against it. I am totally against racism.

489
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of people that is racist.

490
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,239
Speaker 14: Senator, Well, that's your opinion. That's your opinion. But if

491
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 14: it's racism, if it's racism, I'm totally against it. I

492
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 14: am totally against any type of race or any any

493
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 14: type of racism. I don't care what it's in.

494
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 5: So he's okay with white nationalism as long as it

495
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 5: doesn't involve racism.

496
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 4: So bad, so bad, So bad.

497
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 5: Mitch McConnell got pressed on it at his uh at

498
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 5: the Sticks yesterday on Capitol Here.

499
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 3: Here's here's Mitch McConnell grappling with this question.

500
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 6: Do you any concerns that you're a member of your conference,

501
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 6: Senator Tuberville's it seems to have a hard time denouncing

502
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 6: white nationalism, especially as a past white nationalism in the military.

503
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 5: You know, white supremacy is simply unacceptable in the military

504
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 5: and in our whole country. Mitch, Yeah, And so I

505
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 5: saw Eric Erickson saying, you know, Tommy Tuberville is the

506
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 5: hero we need talking about.

507
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: His fight with the military right now.

508
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 4: So, how is this.

509
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 5: Just horrifying moment of racism from Tulberville colliding and coinciding

510
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 5: with this kind of stand he's taking with the kind

511
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 5: of evangelical movement to support their kind of preferred abortion

512
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 5: policy in the military.

513
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 7: Is it?

514
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 5: Is it causing consternation that oh boy like in order

515
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 5: to like or these are these things mingling together?

516
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: What's going on on the right.

517
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 5: As as they as people have to grapple with this

518
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 5: guy's refusal to say.

519
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 3: To just denounce white nationalism.

520
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 4: I think it's it's an attempt and I would imagine

521
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,239
Speaker 4: coordinated on Capitol Hill to undercut his credibility. And if

522
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 4: you can undercut his sort of moral credibility, then do

523
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 4: you have the conservative.

524
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 3: Moods like maybe somebody leaked that podcast.

525
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 4: Someone Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised by that.

526
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 5: It could have been brought him on the CNN and

527
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 5: then he refused to just put it out by say

528
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 5: apologizing it.

529
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, And Mitch McConnell and John Thune have or McConnell

530
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 4: at least you've seen that there have taken the opportunity

531
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 4: to jump in but I would say this is actually

532
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 4: kind of interesting. Some people might think this is a

533
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 4: charitable read untopable, but I think it is. It is

534
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 4: not charitable. I think it's the least charitable read on him.

535
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 4: I genuinely think that he is trying to push back

536
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 4: on this this definition inflation in a way that this

537
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 4: is not defensible. And that's my point. He like genuinely

538
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 4: doesn't understand that white nationalism is inherently racist. He like

539
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 4: actually thinks that it's just a label democrats are throwing around,

540
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 4: because like, let's be real, that does happen. There are

541
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 4: labels that are thrown around, you know, ridiculously willy nilly

542
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 4: in a way that like cheapens it. But he genuinely

543
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 4: seems to not understand what white nationalism is. And I

544
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 4: think obviously, for any publican senator right now, you should

545
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 4: have a pretty clear understanding that white nationalism is absolutely racist.

546
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 4: And I honestly like, I think that's what explains this

547
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 4: bizarre clip of him saying, listen, if it's racism, I

548
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 4: denounced that racism is terrible. He's like aggressively denouncing racism

549
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 4: and then shrugging out of white nationalism. I think he

550
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 4: is genuinely confused, and I think that's fairly shameful.

551
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 5: It is. It is interesting that if you get down

552
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 5: into the fever swamps of the white nationalism and white

553
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 5: supremacy world, you will find all sorts of people who

554
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 5: self identify as white nationalists who say that they are

555
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 5: not racist, yes, because they are not white supremacy, right exactly.

556
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 5: And they will point and they will say, actually, we

557
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 5: think Asians are like they literally like, this is a

558
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 5: very common you'll they'll vouch for me that, right, He's

559
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 5: a common.

560
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 4: Thing, well on the right so much as like super

561
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 4: free right whatever you would want to call that.

562
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: And so I actually thought it was interesting.

563
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 5: I'm curious if McConnell was doing some weird code switching

564
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 5: there when he was asked about white nationalism answered about

565
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 5: white supremacy, right, because he whistling to people to say

566
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 5: that I know the difference, and I'm willing to announce

567
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 5: white supremacy, yeah, but not white nationalism there like as

568
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 5: somebody like, did you notice that code switch to yeah?

569
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 4: I did, And I think it's exactly what Caitlin is

570
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 4: getting at with Coverville. She's and he comes out and

571
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 4: again it's this weird thing where he's saying if it's racist, no,

572
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 4: it's it's bad. But and this is again like, this

573
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 4: is not a charitable defense of him, because I think

574
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 4: it's shameful that a Republican senator or any senator would

575
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 4: be confused on that level about white nationalism. I just

576
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 4: think it's insane. Ryan. Though you're correct, like white nationalists

577
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 4: will say, we're not racists, we're separatists. Essentially, would believe

578
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 4: that homogeneous sort of like ethnically in like ethnic homogeneity.

579
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 4: It's it's always, I would argue, as always pretty racist. Yeah,

580
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 4: it's like baked into the cake of white nationalisms.

581
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 5: And I think it also exposes how victimized that that

582
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 5: element of our politics is becoming, because what they'll often

583
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 5: say is that, well, what about black nationalism. You often

584
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 5: hear that from them, that's if we are a racist,

585
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 5: isn't it isn't that racist?

586
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 7: Yes?

587
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 5: That well, black nationalism arises from hundreds of years of

588
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 5: oppression and a way to try to reclaim an identity

589
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 5: into the melting pot of the United.

590
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 4: States, when it is predicated on going into the melting

591
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 4: pot as opposed to like separatism.

592
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 5: Yes, I agree, right, And it's right, but otherwise it

593
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 5: could just be separatism. And so that means that these

594
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 5: folks are claiming the same amount of oppression. And I

595
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 5: think in their hearts like they feel it, but they

596
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 5: look around and feel that amount.

597
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: Of pression and the rest of the world is like,

598
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: you guys have lost your mind. You're not the oppressed

599
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: class here.

600
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 7: What is it like? What is like?

601
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 5: How did you get to a place where you can

602
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 5: justify that feeling despite like all of the abundance that is, like,

603
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 5: you know, within within your reach.

604
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 3: But uh, so, I I think you're right.

605
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 5: That's and and I don't think Tommy Tellerville has equipped

606
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 5: kind of disgusted he was he then he then did, uh,

607
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 5: the incredible version of some of my best friends are

608
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 5: black was he was asked if he's racist, and he said,

609
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 5: I I used to be a football coach, and I

610
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 5: dealt with more minorities. It's like dealt with like you're

611
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 5: It's like the contempt is seeping through when you say

612
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 5: dealt with like you deal with like deal with and

613
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 5: and in one of the interviews, he caught himself after

614
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 5: he said dealt with right and and rephrase it too.

615
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 5: Had the privilege to be around because he could hear

616
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 5: like what had subconsciously, you know, crept into the into

617
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 5: the conscious had how it sounded to people deal with.

618
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 4: I agree that he's like just fundamentally not equipped to

619
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 4: have that conversation at.

620
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 5: All, but you know, maybe he is, and we're hearing

621
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 5: his real thoughts as real feelings if you can't.

622
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 4: If you if you say that you're denouncing racism, and

623
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 4: you don't seem to be convinced that white nationalism is racism.

624
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: But not even with the like potential nuance of a

625
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 4: white nationalist who claims that they're also not a racist,

626
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: that you just describe it.

627
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 5: I'm a white nationalist and blah blah blah. It's like, okay,

628
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 5: well that's terrible and awful. Yeah, but you're at least

629
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 5: saying that he's he's I don't even say.

630
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 4: The last time I say is just It is a

631
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 4: very serious problem on the left of inflating the definitions

632
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: of terms like racism and white nationalism. And that is

633
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 4: not an excuse for Tommy Tupperville here, but it is

634
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 4: a point about how sometimes like it has allowed people

635
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 4: to get confused like this, and I like, sincerely again,

636
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 4: I think it is shameful for United States senator if

637
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 4: he is confused and not you know, genuinely trying to

638
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 4: do code switching or whatever, then you know, I think

639
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 4: it's shameful either way. But I do think that it

640
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 4: has caused a lot of confusion in the country. I

641
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 4: think it has been because it is sometimes so objectionable

642
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 4: where you have decent people who are being smeared as

643
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 4: white nationalists simply because they're conservative. That allows more of

644
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 4: this to happen. And I do think it's a really

645
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 4: serious problem. I don't think that's an excuse for Tuberville.

646
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 5: And I think a parallel to that, if the left

647
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 5: ones help understanding, would be the way that some reflexively

648
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 5: pro Israel forces have weaponized anti semitism to the point

649
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 5: where they're going to the UN and trying to redefine

650
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 5: anti Semitism as criticism of Israel, like not even doing

651
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 5: it in like a kind of just subtle way anymore,

652
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,959
Speaker 5: but just saying like no, this, we are literally redefining

653
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 5: that if you criticize Israel, that you are anti Semitic.

654
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 5: And so as a result, people on the left have

655
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 5: started to take anti semitism less seriously than they ought to,

656
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,479
Speaker 5: and you'll see and you'll see people dipping into genuine

657
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 5: anti Semitism because they feel like that there is no

658
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 5: anti Semitism anymore, because it's been so kind of destroyed

659
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 5: as a concept by people who've cynically weaponized it. When

660
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 5: it's like, no, you got to be No, it's still

661
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 5: a real, live, malign force in the world.

662
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 4: And there are people who can who criticize the definition

663
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 4: inflation on behalf of the left from the right and

664
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: do exactly what you're.

665
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 3: Talking about too.

666
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's move on to Hunter Biden. I want to

667
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 4: start by reading from the Daily Beast. Here we can

668
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: put the tear sheet up on the screen because I

669
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 4: actually think, to the point we mentioned as we were

670
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 4: opening the show, this framing is really amusing. So the

671
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 4: Daily Base rates the quote missing witness, long touted by

672
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 4: Republicans in Congress as the missing link to their probe

673
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 4: into alleged Biden family corruption, was accused Monday of being

674
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 4: an unregistered for an agent for China and international arms

675
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 4: trafficker traffic Our while violating US sanctions on Iran and

676
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 4: lying to investigators, among a laundry list of other federal charges.

677
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 4: This is about Gal Luft. It's a name you may

678
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 4: have heard who And this is a continuation of the

679
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 4: Daily Bast article. Quote had already skipped out in his

680
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 4: bailwell in Cyprus awaiting extradition to the US for a

681
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 4: separate case in March. So he alleges that the sprawling

682
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 4: case against him represents political persecution and retaliation by the

683
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 4: Biden administration against a potential witness. So these charges against

684
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 4: Luft he's accused of, you know this twenty sixteen planned

685
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 4: to quote, recruit and pay a White House advisor to

686
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 4: support pro China stuff without registering under Farah. I mean,

687
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 4: this is just like extremely convoluted. There's a million different

688
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 4: countries that are in the mix of UAE, Kenya, Libya, China.

689
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 4: He's in Cyprus right now. But I do think the

690
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 4: tone of the Daily Based article that is sort of smug,

691
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 4: as though this is a real l for Republicans, when

692
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 4: in fact, actually what we're learning more and more like

693
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 4: this guy Gal Luft was working with the former CIA

694
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 4: director James Woolsey. He was basically the head of Woolsey's

695
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 4: think tank after he left the CIA. This is not

696
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 4: some like crazy person. I mean he mayn't be crazy,

697
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 4: but he's not like some fringe Internet weirdo. He was

698
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 4: working for the former CIA director and is now making

699
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 4: these claims the.

700
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: Other way around. It seems like the former CIA director

701
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 3: was working for him.

702
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 4: That was the Yeah, that's an allegation of the plan.

703
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 4: So federal prosecutors I'm reading from the Washington Free Beacon

704
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 4: now they say that CEFC China Energy. So this is

705
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 4: a Hunter Biden connection. Hunter Biden was working with CEFC.

706
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 4: They funded a scheme to quote recruit former CIA director

707
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 4: James Woolsey. This is where Luff comes in. He was

708
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 4: the co director of Wolvesey think tank. And again, when

709
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 4: you put all of that in perspective, not such an

710
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 4: l for Republicans yet, because to the point you were

711
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 4: making earlier in the show, it's really not a like

712
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 4: tanking the credibility of Luft that he's that he's being

713
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 4: alleged to be compromised by foreignate interest.

714
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 5: And the irony here is that what we're talking about

715
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 5: is basically I think that something that everybody stipulates across

716
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 5: the board, which is that Hunter Biden absolutely traded on

717
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 5: his name in order to cash in with foreign governments.

718
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 3: There still remains questions and about whether or not Joe.

719
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 5: Biden knew anything about it, met with anybody, did any

720
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 5: did anything you know that that was you know, furthering

721
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 5: of this kind of business enterprise that was going on.

722
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 5: And this is this is twenty seventeen, so this is

723
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 5: when Biden is out of office. But CEFC is the

724
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 5: is the company where the big guy quote comes from

725
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 5: ten percent for the big guy that everybody loves. And

726
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 5: so the fact that Luft was involved with CEFC puts

727
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 5: him at the center of all of this exactly, rather

728
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 5: than kind of undermining his credibility.

729
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 3: The irony that.

730
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 5: Hundred defenders would say, well, this guy is now discredited

731
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 5: because he's been indicted as a Chinese spy for working

732
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 5: with CFC. They missed the fact that, well, okay, Hunter

733
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 5: Biden was also working with CEFC as part of its

734
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 5: influence operation. So why wouldn't Hunter Biden be indicted as

735
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 5: for failing to register? Because this is paperwork stuff, But like,

736
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 5: this is paperwork that matters, Like if you're representing a

737
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 5: foreign government when you're writing in the Washington Post or

738
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 5: you're sending out emails to reporters or you or you're

739
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 5: hosting events. We want to know, like, now these think

740
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 5: tanks come in and this would become interesting if if

741
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 5: it ever went to trial. It sounds like this guy

742
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 5: is gonna have to be brought in by Jack Ryan

743
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 5: or something out there. So it doesn't there may never

744
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 5: be a trial. But you know, funding think tanks to

745
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 5: get around farah is you know foreign influence one oh one,

746
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 5: which is and then there's a constant push and pull

747
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 5: around disclosure versus versus you know, opacity there where with

748
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 5: the think tanks constantly kind of muddying things and trying

749
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 5: to not you know, say when they testify, you know,

750
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 5: whether or not their think tank gets any funding, and

751
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 5: on and on. So to me, the fact that this

752
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 5: guy is indicted for being involved with CEFC, the company

753
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 5: at the center of this, yeah, actually makes me a

754
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 5: lot more interested in what he has to say.

755
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 3: That final point he.

756
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 5: He says in a statement that he released that he

757
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 5: he voluntarily reached out to the FBI in twenty nineteen

758
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 5: to warn the FBI that there were that there was

759
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 5: this influence operation that involved a presidential candidate, Joe Biden.

760
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 5: And he says that after that, that's when they started

761
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 5: coming after him. The FBI says that he made false

762
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 5: statements at the time, said he was not involved in

763
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 5: arms trafficking, et cetera, which I believe.

764
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: I'm ready to believe that.

765
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 5: Okay, you're sitting down with FBI agents and in cafe

766
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 5: and Brussels, and they ask if you're an arms trafficker

767
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 5: and you're an act and you actually are, and you're

768
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 5: also a spy and you know in this nefarious world

769
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 5: of of of brokering all of these different arms.

770
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 3: Chance that he lied about that?

771
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 4: Hi, So here's where.

772
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: But does that mean that, like he's not an interesting

773
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 3: source on this now?

774
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 4: No, I mean he's a hugely interesting source because, as

775
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: you say, this really puts him at the center of

776
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 4: all of this. Prosecutors are also saying that. So Patrick Hull,

777
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 4: that's a name that some people may have heard. He's

778
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 4: you know, infamously when he was a wrested by the FBI,

779
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 4: his first call was to James Biden. James Biden tells

780
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 4: The New York Times he thought that Hoe was It

781
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 4: seems that Hoe was trying to contact Hunter because Hunter

782
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 4: agreed to represent Hall, like actually signed an agreement with him.

783
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 4: Who was this guy was involved with CEFS.

784
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: I'm halfway down the rabbit hole.

785
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 4: Well, and that's the thing is, like it's not even

786
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 4: a rabbit hole in that this is all conspiratorial. It's

787
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 4: just so convoluted and intentionally.

788
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: That's how this stuff works.

789
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, like these these lobbying agreements and legal agreements are

790
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 4: intentionally super convoluted. But Hoe also asked gal Luft to

791
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 4: recruit Woolsey so that Wolsey would write, according to prosecutors,

792
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,479
Speaker 4: articles for Chinese state media promoting promoting belt and Road.

793
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 4: And that's where Yeah, CFC ended up paying Woolsey six

794
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 4: thousand dollars a month according to the indictment. So Wolsey

795
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 4: left and the Bidens are looking really bad in all

796
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 4: of this. And the more we learn about Galt Luff,

797
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 4: the more we're going to learn about both both the Wolzies,

798
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 4: the Wolsey influence here and the Biden influence here. And

799
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 4: none of it is good. But you can see I

800
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 4: think sadly the media taking the bait from the White

801
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 4: House and just being like super smug about Left getting

802
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 4: stuck in Cyprus. And I don't know whether his allegations

803
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 4: that he's under you know, political he's being blocked for

804
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 4: political reasons, that he's being kept overseas for political reasons.

805
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 4: I don't know if those are true. They sound at

806
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 4: this point plausible given the extent of what he knows.

807
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: But you know, maybe he actually did genuinely engage in

808
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 4: wrongdoing and they're suddenly super eager to crack down on

809
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 4: everyone involved in Pharaoh, you know, violations, et cetera, et cetera.

810
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 5: The way that he could have gotten caught doing this

811
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 5: with absent a kind of I'm a whistleblower being persecuted claim,

812
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 5: would be that the China desk over at the CIA

813
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 5: all of a sudden starts seeing Wolsey writing op heads

814
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 5: Belton Road is like, what on earth is going on here?

815
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 5: Like anybody who sees that happening knows that Wolsey is

816
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 5: not like sitting at home in retirement just pondering like

817
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 5: the beauty of the Belton Road initiative, And it's like,

818
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 5: what friends do I have over in China that would

819
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 5: run my freelance pieces celebrating this stuff. So as soon

820
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 5: as you see that in print, you're like, okay, this

821
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 5: is an operation. Who's paying for it six thousand a month?

822
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 6: Right?

823
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 3: And so which is also peanuts.

824
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, although they're just slapping in.

825
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 3: This elite world, that's true.

826
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 4: That's actually a good point. Woolsey, Come on, man, so

827
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 4: you're worth more clean in for.

828
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 3: Six thousand bucks.

829
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 5: And so you know, the CIA is always looking to

830
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 5: roll up these foreign intelligence operations. So they see that,

831
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 5: then they're like, Okay, let's figure out who's Woolsey working for.

832
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 5: It's like, oh, it's this think tank, who runs this

833
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 5: think tank. Oh it's this guy who's this guy in

834
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 5: communication with And so I think you could get yourself

835
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 5: busted that way, absent everything else.

836
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 3: But it doesn't it.

837
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 5: But like I said, it doesn't actually bear on whether

838
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 5: or not there's some credibility around the Hunter allegations, other

839
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 5: than maybe actually making them more credible.

840
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 4: I was gonna say it.

841
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: Actually it does bear on it. It bears on it

842
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 3: in that direction.

843
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 4: Moving on now to the call of duty block on

844
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 4: our screen, which again doesn't mean that Ryan and I

845
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 4: are going to use these giant screens.

846
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 5: Behind us to like, oh that would be kind of

847
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 5: cool hours, right, isn't that what streamers do? They just

848
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 5: do it just for hours or just I think that's

849
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 5: what Mac.

850
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 4: And Griffin do when nobody's taping in here.

851
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 3: They just come in and play call of Well they

852
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 3: should put that on Twitch.

853
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll look about the terror screen. Tear sheet up

854
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 4: on the screen. This is from Politico. I'm reading from

855
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 4: this article Microsoft's fortunes and it's hotly condested to take

856
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 4: over a video game company, Activision. Blizzard dramatically improved Tuesday

857
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 4: after a federal judge sided with the companies over the

858
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 4: FTC's attempt to block the deal, and after a UK

859
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 4: anti trust regulator signaled it's receptiveness to reversing its own

860
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 4: decision against the merger. That's a ruling from US District

861
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 4: Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley, who you can imagine Matt Stoller

862
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 4: has some harsh words for. We'll get to that in

863
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 4: a second. Political caused this. A stinging rebuke for the

864
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 4: FTC and a kind of a rebuke against Lena Kahn

865
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 4: as well. I think that's probably fair. Now, the FTC

866
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 4: is trying to determine whether Activision is going to give Microsoft,

867
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 4: So say, Microsoft, you know, mergers with Activision an unfair

868
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 4: advantage in the world of video games games. You know

869
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 4: the xboxes three behind PlayStation and Sony and so, according

870
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 4: to Politico, the agency fts.

871
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: Sony PlayStation and Nintendo right now.

872
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 4: So the FTC is arguing Sony and other video game

873
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 4: companies would be significantly disadvantaged if Microsoft made hit games

874
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 4: like Call of Duty exclusive to its platforms. This is

875
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 4: part of the ruling. Corley gets in to what Microsoft

876
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 4: and Activision, or Microsoft in particular, says is going to

877
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 4: happen in that situation, and enter Matt Stole.

878
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 5: I'll read from some of those. So for put up

879
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 5: Stoller here, a friend of our show. He's probably I'm

880
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 5: sure he's going to do a segment on this soon.

881
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 5: He said, I'd guess it was gonna this was going

882
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 5: to get appealed. It became very opposite trial that judge

883
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 5: jaquill and Scott Corley is your standard boomer moron. Hard

884
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 5: to imagine she didn't make significant legal errors. So as

885
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 5: always subtle analysis from our from from Staller, uh and

886
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 5: uh So he then does actually go through and finds

887
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 5: a lot of these errors that she that and she

888
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 5: even in the ruling Stoller notice said, hey, I was

889
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 5: rushed on this, so there's going to be citation errors

890
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 5: in this.

891
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 3: As Stolar rightly points out, she wasn't rushed. You know,

892
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 3: she could have delayed.

893
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 5: She decided to go on Microsoft schedule, so you know,

894
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 5: the the errors are her own fault. But the favorite

895
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 5: thing for me that he that he flagged in this

896
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 5: ruling is this next element. If you can put this up,

897
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 5: this is basically accepting as fact that don't worry. They

898
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 5: promised that they're going to behave so right rite Fourth

899
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 5: Microsoft witnesses, this is the judge writing. Microsoft witnesses consistently

900
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 5: testified there are no plans to make Call of Duty

901
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 5: exclusive to the Xbox. Mister Nadella testified he would one

902
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 5: hundred percent commit to continuing to ship Call of Duty

903
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 5: on the Sony PlayStation. Mister Spencer testified, my commitment is

904
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 5: and my testimony is to use that word that basically

905
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 5: I'd be humiliated if I didn't do it. And they

906
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 5: said seventh, Microsoft anticipates irreparable reputationable reputational harm if it

907
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 5: forecloses Call of Duty from PlayStation. Spencer testified, us pulling

908
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 5: Call of Duty from PlayStation, in my view, would create

909
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 5: irreparable harm to the Xbox brand. After me in so

910
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 5: many public places, including here, talking about and committing to

911
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 5: us not pulling Call of Duty from PlayStation. Activision CEO

912
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 5: Bob Katich confirmed Microsoft concerns are not unfounded. If we

913
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 5: were to remove Call of Duty from PlayStation, it would have,

914
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 5: you know, cause problems.

915
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 3: So basically they're saying trust us.

916
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 5: And the judge took their trust us quote and put

917
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 5: it in her in her ruling and said, look there,

918
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 5: they're not going to make Call of Duty exclusive. They

919
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 5: because they told us that they're not. Why would they

920
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 5: Why would they ever do that?

921
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 7: Now?

922
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 3: Will they? Will they go to Nintendo?

923
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 5: Will they go to Sony and say, uh, you have

924
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 5: to pay us extra for this in including whatever your

925
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 5: profit margin is on it, or or we will do

926
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 5: this uh. And separately, you can't make a legal argument

927
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 5: based on I promise I won't do this this time

928
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 5: because there will be other games now hopefully Now if

929
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 5: they become too much of a monopoly, there might not

930
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 5: be the other games. Like this is you know, they'll

931
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 5: they'll update present games and like continue to produce some,

932
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 5: but like, uh, they would have they would have much

933
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 5: less incentive to produce you know, more and better games

934
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 5: because this is what you get. Yeah, like that, you

935
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 5: know you're gonna get it here or you're not gonna

936
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 5: get it anywhere else.

937
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 4: So Installer does have something up on this at the

938
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 4: Big Newsletter dot com, and that's actually the name of

939
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: the newsletter, The Big Newsletter dot Com, where he's talking

940
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 4: about how Corley, Who's son, by the way, apparently works

941
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 4: for Microsoft, which is a little bit of the conflict

942
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 4: of interest to begin with, maybe she shouldn't have been

943
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 4: hearing the case, but that she essentially had to rewrite

944
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 4: the Clayton Act in order to narrow, he says, narrow

945
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 4: the stakes for the merger.

946
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 3: And that's because I.

947
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 5: Think the law says may cause you know, competition problems,

948
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 5: but they should change it too, will probably.

949
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 4: And you can see yeah, and so you can see

950
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 4: actually in for example, the call of duty question exactly

951
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 4: that like she's reading, she's sort of being credulous what

952
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 4: Microsoft says.

953
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're good.

954
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 4: This is what they're doing.

955
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: You can keep getting called duty, they say.

956
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 4: Right, whereas the FTC is saying, you know, there's plenty

957
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,919
Speaker 4: of evidence here the Microsoft is intentionally buying up competitors

958
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 4: to be like a Netflix so that they can then

959
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 4: exclude people that they don't want to and have more

960
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 4: control of the market. I'm with Matt, I think this

961
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 4: is a pretty obvious case. But even actually, and this

962
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 4: is a this is an interesting find yesterday because part

963
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 4: of this conversation we wanted to have was about the

964
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 4: fact that you have now a union at Sega. This

965
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 4: is a new decision before Yeah, so Sega of America

966
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 4: their workers voted to forming union. Ninety one employees voted

967
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 4: yes out of two hundred and twelve. So the Allied

968
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 4: Employees Guild Improving Sega that's known as AGUS CWA is

969
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 4: now the fifth video game union in the United States

970
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 4: and the largest multi department video game union. That is

971
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 4: all according to the Verge. At the same time, CWA

972
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 4: the Communication Workers announced that this is the next element.

973
00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 4: Claude Cummings from Houston won a runoff election over Mooney

974
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 4: to become the first black president of CWA. CWA then

975
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 4: interestingly actually supported the ft I'm sorry, supported Corley's decision

976
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 4: against the FTC and cheered the merger essentially, which was

977
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 4: an extremely I thought that was extremely interesting. Let me

978
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 4: see if I can find the quote here. They say,

979
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 4: by accepting Judge Corley's decision and allowing this merger to

980
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 4: move forward, the FTC has an opportunity to transform the

981
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 4: video game and tech labor market by providing a clear

982
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 4: path to collective bargaining for almost ten thousand workers.

983
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think what people need to understand is

984
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 5: that a union exists to represent the interests of the

985
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 5: workers in that union, and that's it. Now, when union

986
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 5: density gets to a big enough place in our economy,

987
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 5: often they exert positive influence, some times on deliberately, other

988
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 5: times just by kind of driving up wages for the

989
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 5: rest of the working class. And that's one of the

990
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 5: great things about kind of the union movement. But ultimately

991
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 5: you have to remember like they're they're looking out for

992
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 5: their union, and there's nothing wrong with that.

993
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 3: That's that's what that's what that's what a union is.

994
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 4: And so.

995
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 5: It is in their benefit to have bigger businesses business.

996
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 5: And this goes back to the kind of economic orthodoxy

997
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 5: that was that reigned supreme in the mid twentieth century,

998
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 5: led really by Cain's and John Kenneth Galbraith. That was

999
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 5: about kind of the combination the working together of kind

1000
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 5: of big government, big business, and big labor, like a

1001
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 5: gigantic bargain to make sure that everybody is taken care

1002
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 5: of and nobody gets too powerful, and you'd have these

1003
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 5: countervailing forces that would be able to check each other.

1004
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 3: Now, eventually big.

1005
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 5: Business was able to kind of defeat in the nineteen

1006
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 5: eighties both big labor and government, and then that's what

1007
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 5: produced the kind of neoliberal area era. But that, but

1008
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 5: that this, this reminds us that unions are not just

1009
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 5: out here supporting every kind of progressive idea, Like they

1010
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 5: don't care if.

1011
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 3: You can ship call of duty.

1012
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 5: If they can get more high paying union jobs by

1013
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 5: you not getting shipped call of duty anymore, then.

1014
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 3: They're going to be for that.

1015
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 5: C w A is one of the most progressive unions

1016
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 5: in the kind of a f l c IO, but

1017
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 5: famously was a huge enemy of the of the left

1018
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 5: on net neutrality in that in that big fight over

1019
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 5: Internet freedom because they were with the telecoms, they wanted

1020
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 5: more power for the telecoms. More power for the telecoms

1021
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 5: meant kind of, uh, better wages for union workers. And

1022
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 5: people need to understand that there's a there are always

1023
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 5: going to be those contradictions in there. Uh quick word

1024
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,439
Speaker 5: on that election, it's really interesting, really interesting to see

1025
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 5: it unfold this way. Because this was a a two

1026
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 5: person race that Claude Cummings was not even part of.

1027
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 5: Like he was considered he's seventy one years old, he's

1028
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 5: considered to be retiring, Like this is cool.

1029
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 3: He's going to run for president.

1030
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 5: Everybody likes him, but he's not gonna be not gonna

1031
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 5: be president, Like he's just he's just running.

1032
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: It was really between Sarah Stephens and this guy at Mooney.

1033
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 5: Sarah Stephen's represented the the the Newspaper Guild, which has

1034
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 5: seen the most growth. Basically, the most growth of the

1035
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 5: CWA has come from the News Guild and from grad

1036
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 5: students and some other other kind of elements that are

1037
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 5: not you know, directly related to the core kind of uh,

1038
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 5: you know, work that you see people doing on the

1039
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 5: streets that you associate with with the c w A.

1040
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 3: And so you saw that, you saw the rise of

1041
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 3: this element of c w A.

1042
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 5: And these are also the most left wing elements, the

1043
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 5: news Guild, the grad students, others, and so they rally

1044
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 5: behind Stephens.

1045
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: She apparently ran up awful campaign at Mooney.

1046
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 5: Kind of the is kind of the right wing old

1047
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 5: school building trades type of candidate who I incidentally and

1048
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 5: strangely had actually, never mind, we don't really.

1049
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 3: Need to get into that.

1050
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 5: The amount of drama in this in this race would

1051
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 5: take like an hour to get into. Basically, what ended

1052
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 5: up happening, it seems like is people were like, you

1053
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 5: know what, Claude Commings is great and we're sick of

1054
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 5: both of these people, right, and he wanted He ended

1055
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 5: up winning in a landslide. You know, Stephans didn't even

1056
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 5: make the runoff, and then he crushed Mooney in a

1057
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 5: in a landslide, and he pledged only to serve four years.

1058
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 5: And I don't see it as like a gigantic wind

1059
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 5: for say, a left wing union democracy movement, but it

1060
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 5: is definitely a rejection of the old guard, and it's

1061
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 5: an opportunity over the next four years for the CWA

1062
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 5: to figure out kind of what it wants to be

1063
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 5: and where it wants to go from from here.

1064
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,240
Speaker 4: Especially so many changes happening in their industry.

1065
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 5: Right because these unions are all constantly figuring out, you know,

1066
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 5: how they're going to continue to grow members, Like the

1067
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 5: UAW organizes a ton of grad students too, Like it's

1068
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 5: not it's autoworkers, so it's not just you know, you

1069
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 5: don't stick to where you know what you're what you're into.

1070
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 5: You gotta gotta get a pivot in the parlants of

1071
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 5: Silicon Valley, right.

1072
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 4: Gotta pivot to video.

1073
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 3: Got a pivot?

1074
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 4: Okay, So let's talk about Andrew Tate. Tucker Carlson dropped

1075
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 4: a very long interview we're talking more than two hours

1076
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 4: long with Andrew Tate from Romania. Tucker Carlson flew to

1077
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 4: Romania and dropped this for Tucker on Twitter because he

1078
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 4: was assured sounds like directly from Elon Musk, that it

1079
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 4: wouldn't be censored at all. I imagine if he had

1080
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 4: uploaded this full two plus hours YouTube, there would be

1081
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 4: some real problems.

1082
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 3: He's been banned from YouTube, right, Tate?

1083
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 4: Probably he has. I don't know if interviews with him

1084
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 4: have been though, So like, is it different if you're

1085
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 4: actually interviewing I don't know, but I would imagine that

1086
00:55:58,760 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 4: it would have been more.

1087
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 3: That's an interesting question.

1088
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 4: I don't know, Right, So let's just get straight to

1089
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 4: some clips here, because again we're talking about a two

1090
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 4: plus hour long interview and there's just a ton of breakdown.

1091
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 4: They talked about a lot of different stuff as you

1092
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 4: can imagine. So let's roll E one right off the bat.

1093
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 15: Up until this point, never really commented too heavily on politics. Yes,

1094
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 15: but I understand very well. I like to believe what's

1095
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 15: happening with Ukraine and Russia. And what I will say

1096
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 15: to the people who are watching this at home is

1097
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 15: that if you are naive enough to believe that there

1098
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 15: are good guys and bad guys in wars and it's

1099
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 15: as simple as good and bad, and that the bad

1100
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 15: guys are crazy, the good guys want freedom, then you

1101
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 15: need to do a little bit more investigation into what's

1102
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 15: really happening. And when you look at the vested interest

1103
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 15: of any country or any person, kind of.

1104
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 11: Just ask you to pause and just comment, that's the

1105
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 11: truest thing what you just said. That is that and

1106
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 11: anyone who doesn't understand that should shut the fuck up.

1107
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 3: And I mean, having seen war, looks like they're wearing

1108
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 3: matching the first Do you think they planned that?

1109
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 4: I hope not. That would be a little too that'll

1110
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 4: be a little too weird.

1111
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 3: That would be one fact check.

1112
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 5: Though what he seems to be saying, what Tucker is

1113
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 5: saying is that the Ukrainians are not the good guys

1114
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 5: in this war. But hasn't Tucker said that the Russians

1115
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 5: are the good guys in this war? They was rooting

1116
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 5: for the Russians, like, you can't have it both ways.

1117
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 5: If there's no good guys, then it's Tucker finally acknowledging

1118
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 5: that the Russians are also not the good guys.

1119
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, he said at one point, I'm trying to find

1120
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 4: the exact quote. He says, like it almost makes me

1121
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 4: a root for Russia or root for Putin, something like that,

1122
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 4: And it was sort of a rhetorical thing where he was,

1123
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 4: you know, you know, back and forth.

1124
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 5: I think there's an element of the that that calls

1125
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 5: itself anti war, that is legitimately straight up just rooting

1126
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 5: for Russia and calling Russia good guys this war. So

1127
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 5: now I guess you're crosswise with Tucker and Andrew Tate

1128
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 5: if that's your position and no good guys.

1129
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 4: So not only did they talk about Russia versus Ukraine,

1130
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 4: they kept going that was actually even later in the interview,

1131
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 4: I think, but we can roll so number two here.

1132
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 11: You too, So what is it about your message do

1133
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 11: you think that infuriates certain people?

1134
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 15: Well, my message traditional, my message is traditional masculinity. My

1135
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 15: message is to stand up and say what you mean

1136
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 15: and mean what you say. And even going to the

1137
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 15: gym nowadays is an act of defiance because when you

1138
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 15: have a man who's built with any degree of principle,

1139
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 15: you say no to things. And I think, if I

1140
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 15: have to analyze my message and why I'm so disliked

1141
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 15: by the people who dislike me, it's not the things

1142
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 15: I'm saying. It's the fact that if you adhere to

1143
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 15: my principles, and you adhere to the things I say,

1144
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 15: you end up being the kind of person who will

1145
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 15: resist certain ideas. You say no. What kind of man

1146
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 15: never says no? Name a man who never says no?

1147
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 4: Men say no?

1148
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 15: Right men, Men wake up and say no, I don't

1149
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 15: think that should be done this way. No, my children

1150
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 15: will not be taught that.

1151
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 7: No.

1152
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 11: Father's primary job.

1153
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 15: Absolutely, So when you say to men, listen, you're allowed

1154
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 15: to have an opinion, You're allowed to have standards, You're

1155
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 15: allowed to have boundaries and barriers. Allowed to get up

1156
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 15: and become important and work hard and try hard and

1157
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 15: become the kind of man who can't be controlled. Then

1158
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 15: you're seen as an enemy. And I, especially with the

1159
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 15: massive influence I've gained. I think they look at me

1160
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 15: and go, ah, he's helping men resist the slave programming.

1161
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 15: We don't need him around. We need to empty their

1162
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 15: brains so we can inject the slave programming and convince

1163
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 15: men to be eunix.

1164
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 3: Because once you're uniqued, then you're not a threat.

1165
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 4: Every time you say no, I'm going to think of

1166
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 4: it in a different context.

1167
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 3: Now that's what men say, Well, what do you make

1168
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 3: of this guy?

1169
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 4: There's so much to there's so much to say. Why

1170
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 4: don't we roll the next clip and then we can

1171
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 4: break it all down? This is E three.

1172
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 11: It's one of those charges that kind of sells itself.

1173
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 15: Oh absolutely, And it doesn't matter if you're found guilty

1174
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 15: or not right, you're a human trafficker forever. But I

1175
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 15: do think that public consciousness is changing.

1176
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 3: I think with things like.

1177
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 15: There's been some very large court cases recently involving some

1178
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 15: very famous people in which women were caught lying, trying

1179
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 15: to slander men's names for rape and these kinds of things,

1180
00:59:59,600 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 15: and I.

1181
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 4: I don't think people believe it anymore.

1182
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 15: But that scares me to a degree because I think

1183
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 15: that the typical weapon the standardized playbook is now failing,

1184
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 15: and I don't know what the new playbook's going to be.

1185
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 15: It's almost like better the devil. You know that you're

1186
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 15: too famous, you're too successful. We don't like you call

1187
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 15: him a rapist or a human draft or put them

1188
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 15: all over the news slander's name, try and wreck his life.

1189
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 15: Now that nobody believes it's what's the next move? What

1190
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 15: are they going to try next?

1191
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 11: Wouldn't it just have been easier to commit like a

1192
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 11: massive financial crime and defraud people of billions, come up

1193
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,439
Speaker 11: with like a fake cryptocurrency, call it like I don't

1194
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 11: know FTX, or just give a name to it, yeah something, yeah, random,

1195
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 11: you know, steal billions, Yeah, and get your parents involved

1196
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 11: and buy a bunch of real estate and the Bahamas

1197
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 11: and then like you'd be sort of a hero, right.

1198
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 15: Oh, absolutely, And I would have certainly made a lot

1199
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 15: more money than TikTok, because I don't think TikTok even

1200
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 15: pays you for views, and it certainly does. I never

1201
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 15: got a single transaction from it, so it's a very

1202
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 15: interesting scenario. But if I was accused of a financial crime,

1203
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 15: my name would not be slandered.

1204
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 5: Well, of course, not at first all he's talking about

1205
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 5: Sam Bangman freed. Yeah, and I keep hearing this from

1206
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 5: the right that it's it's so unfair the way he

1207
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 5: you know, he got treated guys under indictment and might

1208
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 5: spend the rest of his life in prison.

1209
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 7: That.

1210
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 4: I'm treated to freed.

1211
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 5: Aren't Aren't they going to update that that talking point

1212
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 5: at some point based on the fact that he very

1213
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 5: likely might spend the rest of his life in jail.

1214
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 4: I assumed what Tucker meant was he'd.

1215
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:22,919
Speaker 3: Be celebrated by the media.

1216
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, that he had you know, was being fitted and

1217
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 4: had you know, Bill Clinton and whomever else at the

1218
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 4: ft X conferences before, even though it was sort of

1219
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 4: transparently upon.

1220
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 5: You've got that Bankman free quote where he told Wired

1221
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 5: you say, or you told maybe as a reporter at

1222
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 5: Vox that you say these shibboleus so that.

1223
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: People will think so basically saying that.

1224
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 5: But okay, So the last the last clip is on

1225
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 5: on the charges, and it just does not feel like

1226
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 5: a very hard hitting interview on when you have someone

1227
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 5: who is uh charged with rape and human trafficking in

1228
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 5: front of you, he just sort of is like, so,

1229
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 5: didn't do this stuff?

1230
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 3: Right, and he's like, no, I didn't do this stuff.

1231
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 5: And then oh, well, all, if you didn't do that stuff,

1232
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 5: then there must be a conspiracy about uh. And then

1233
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 5: let's unpack this conspiracy. What is it that has them

1234
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 5: coming after you rather than pressing like you?

1235
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 3: According to the news.

1236
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 5: Reports, there are there are women who say that you

1237
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 5: rate them beyond beyond the the foul, nasty kind of

1238
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 5: recruiting that he has openly said that he does, where

1239
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 5: he kind of uh would recruit women to come over

1240
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 5: like get the boyfriend, met the go, get him to

1241
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 5: fall in love, and then and then kind of turn

1242
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 5: them out into like porn stars, like he's said that

1243
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 5: he does that. But beyond that, there are people accusing

1244
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 5: him of straight up rape, and he's that he's been

1245
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 5: charged with in Romania and so any everyone's innocent until

1246
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 5: proven guilty, but these are very serious charges that he

1247
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 5: that took. It just seems to kind of just wave

1248
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 5: away and then work to kind of explain as a

1249
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 5: conspiracy among a feminized world that doesn't like him standing

1250
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 5: up for traditional masculineus thing.

1251
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 3: I think there might be a little bit more than

1252
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 3: that going on.

1253
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 4: Tate reportedly tells Carlson that he is that the women

1254
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 4: who accuse him. I actually don't like that the government

1255
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 4: has trumped up the charges. I think it's it's possible

1256
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 4: that some of the charges against him are trumped up,

1257
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 4: and he's saying that the government can't find women who

1258
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 4: truly claim that this was non consensual, and the government

1259
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 4: is reading into it by using the human trafficking charge.

1260
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 4: But I think the broader point is that the legal

1261
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 4: questions of Andrew Tate are different than the moral questions

1262
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 4: from Andrew Tate. I actually have zero problem with Tucker

1263
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 4: engaging with him. I think some of those questions should

1264
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 4: have been a lot tougher.

1265
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 3: I don't have to think an interview.

1266
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 5: I think Peter berg and interviewed Osama bin Laden right,

1267
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 5: maybe for NBC News or Wall Street Journal. I forget

1268
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 5: who it was celebrated for landing that interview, Like so

1269
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 5: Simon Lauden, one of the most evil people of the

1270
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:04,919
Speaker 5: last fifty years.

1271
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 4: Megan Kelly interviewed Putin right, you.

1272
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 5: Should interview bad people, Yeah, Like the bad people are

1273
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 5: part of the world, and it's important to know and

1274
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 5: get insight into their mentality.

1275
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 4: And I also don't have a problem with one person

1276
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 4: in the media taking Andrew Tits seriously and saying, this

1277
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 4: is a guy who has a ton of sincere followers,

1278
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 4: and we obviously have a masculinity crisis. There's a great

1279
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 4: Christine mbsay in the Washington Post actually about that very

1280
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 4: topic this week, what can I learn from a good

1281
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 4: faith engagement with him? And there were some interesting parts

1282
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 4: of it, but I do find it, you know, I

1283
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 4: don't know if strange is the right word. I don't

1284
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 4: know what is the right word, but it's it's very obvious.

1285
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 4: I mean, this is a quote from Andrew Tate's website.

1286
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 4: I've been running a webcam studio for nearly a decade.

1287
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 4: I've had over seventy five girls work for me, and

1288
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 4: my business model is different than ninety nine percent of

1289
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 4: webcam studio owners. Over fifty percent of my employees were

1290
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 4: actually my girlfriend at the time, and of all girlfriends,

1291
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 4: none were in the adult entertainment industry before they met me.

1292
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 4: My job was to meet a girl, go in a

1293
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 4: few dates, sleep with her, test if she's quality, get

1294
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 4: her to fall in love with me where she'd do

1295
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 4: anything I say, and then get her on a webcam

1296
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 4: so we could become rich together. The moral element of

1297
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 4: that is very clear, Like that's sort of all out

1298
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 4: on the table. That's immoral, especially, I think from the

1299
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 4: perspective I say this as a fellow Tucker's fellow Christian conservative,

1300
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 4: like that's absurd, And if you want to engage seriously

1301
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 4: in a good faith conversation about that, I actually think

1302
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 4: that's constructive.

1303
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 3: A whole lot of family values going on there.

1304
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 4: But the masculinity question. We were actually talking about this

1305
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 4: earlier when we were talking oddly enough in the Tommy

1306
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 4: Turberville segment, when it's like why is Tommy Turwverville flirting

1307
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 4: with this question? Like why is he even taking white

1308
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 4: nationalism seriously? While there are probably a lot of places

1309
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 4: in rural and Alabama to your point about you know,

1310
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 4: why are so many white men in America like suddenly

1311
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 4: seeing themselves as victims on par with people who were

1312
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,959
Speaker 4: trapped into slavery and kept in bondage for hundreds of years.

1313
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 4: It's not comparable if you go to places in rural

1314
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 4: Alabama that have been hollowed out by NAFTA and wto

1315
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 4: that people are dying of fentanyl overdoses addicted to pornography,

1316
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 4: numbing themselves with weed. Tucker actually prefaced his interview with

1317
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 4: Andrew Tate on with a sort of a monologue on that.

1318
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 4: I think you can understand why Tate is appealing. Why

1319
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 4: then ideologies like white nationalism are appealing, And the problem

1320
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 4: is that too few people in the media take any

1321
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 4: of that seriously. The problem then becomes that to balance

1322
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 4: it out, you end up getting Andrew Tate.

1323
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1324
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 5: Well, the left has long had a critique of this

1325
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 5: quote unquote family values traditional conservatism as simply a mask

1326
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 5: for misogyny and racism, right, And I think both the

1327
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 5: Tubberville and the Tate clips here help helped pull the

1328
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 5: mask off off of that and say that there is

1329
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 5: a lot. There is a lot going on there, and

1330
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 5: I do think it's really important to try to understand

1331
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 5: Tate and and the and the tens of millions of

1332
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 5: people behind them. But on the other hand, I think

1333
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 5: some of it is simple, and I think it's misogyny

1334
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 5: sells like we are we are still a very misogynistic world.

1335
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 4: It's an easy pitch to men to say, like, the

1336
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:22,439
Speaker 4: way to feel better about yourself is to do something

1337
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 4: that makes you feel really good.

1338
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 3: Control women, women, women, are your problem. Girls are your problem.

1339
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 3: That's it.

1340
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, uh, control women, use them as sexual objects, et cetera.

1341
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 3: Right, So I think that he gets a little.

1342
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously, there are a lot of people selling misogyny,

1343
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 5: and he's selling it better than anybody else in the

1344
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 5: world at the moment.

1345
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 3: So in that sense, he's a talented misogynist.

1346
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 5: But but I don't think there's any creative creativity in

1347
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 5: the idea of wow, I can get rich by, you know,

1348
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 5: telling men that women are awful.

1349
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's something I think interestingly reactionary about what he

1350
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 4: specifically gets into. Has turned to Islam. We talked about

1351
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 4: that on a previous edition of the show and had

1352
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 4: an interesting conversation about it.

1353
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 5: So I think he's because he has he fully made

1354
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 5: that turn yet I'm not sure it's coming. I think

1355
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:16,679
Speaker 5: he has though, if it hasn't come yet, it's coming.

1356
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 5: All these like all of these influencers are who root

1357
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 5: their stuff in traditional values and misogyny, I think are

1358
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 5: just They're just bound for their own twisted version of

1359
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 5: some weird sectarian Islam.

1360
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 4: I mean the Tate direction. It's the Tate trajectory supports that.

1361
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 4: Although I do think you know, actually, Jordan Peterson, there

1362
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 4: are other people who were unfairly, so he'll wind up there.

1363
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 4: I think Dan Peter Jordan Peterson.

1364
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 3: Some mystical version of it.

1365
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he's he's been studying Christianity really closely.

1366
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 7: But he.

1367
01:08:57,520 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 4: People can watch his speech just commencement address that he'll

1368
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 4: still gets into some interesting.

1369
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 7: Stuff on that.

1370
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 4: But he is someone who was so unfairly I think

1371
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 4: torn down. He was sort of a center left like

1372
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:11,840
Speaker 4: academic who is pushing him back against these things, and

1373
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 4: that I think nudged him in a direction where he

1374
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 4: does occasionally I think dip his toes and waters that

1375
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,639
Speaker 4: are probably not great. But on the whole, I feel

1376
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 4: he actually has been good for so many men. And

1377
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 4: the fact that he gets attacked over and over and

1378
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 4: over again in ways that are unfair. There's always fair

1379
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 4: criticisms of people who speak so much in the public domain,

1380
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 4: but he gets attacked on things that are so unfair

1381
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 4: so many times that this is how you end up

1382
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 4: with just enter Tate like. He becomes an influencer, not

1383
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 4: that we need, but the influencer we deserve because we

1384
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 4: can't have constructive conversations anymore since we're all doing it

1385
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 4: on Twitter and Instagram whenever else, which incentivizes the worst

1386
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 4: of human debate.

1387
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 5: Well, either way, we can put this up here. It's

1388
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 5: getting an insane amount of traction on Twitter. As of

1389
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 5: this morning, it's forty two point eight million views. I'm

1390
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 5: seeing now a ton of that is inflated that, but

1391
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:07,759
Speaker 5: if it's ten percent of that, that's still four million

1392
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:12,719
Speaker 5: more than that I'd want absorbing this what I consider

1393
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 5: to be just deeply kind of toxic way to think,

1394
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 5: and and a in an opiate, a soothing message to

1395
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 5: two men that there that they can find their problems

1396
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 5: outside of themselves by just identifying them and the women

1397
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 5: around them, and that that's if they if they just

1398
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 5: understand that, then they're going to feel better about themselves.

1399
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 4: I am the problem with this show.

1400
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 3: That's right now, there you go. What's your point.

1401
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 4: Today, Well, if you watch an old movie, especially one

1402
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,679
Speaker 4: before the Second World War, you'll have a hard time

1403
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 4: spotting one particular thing plastic. Look around you now, don't

1404
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 4: even think about technology, think about things like clocks or

1405
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 4: cookwar furniture. We are drowning, drowning in plastics. Our suburbs

1406
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 4: are designed around the freeway system, and then without cars

1407
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 4: they wouldn't work. Those all of those things have one

1408
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 4: particular thing in common. We'll get to that in just

1409
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 4: one minute. Cars and plastics help usher in a new

1410
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 4: era of convenience and prosperity. That much is clear when

1411
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 4: we look back United States history of the last one

1412
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 4: hundred years or so. But without access to vast quantities

1413
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 4: of that one thing, oil, none of that would have happened.

1414
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,639
Speaker 4: That's why our politics now revolve around it. And unlike

1415
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 4: in previous eras where politics revolved around other commodities, this

1416
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 4: time there's another really big difference, and that would be

1417
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,719
Speaker 4: nuclear weapons. That's basically the latest chapter in human history.

1418
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 4: In a nutshell. The Cold War was hyper modern in

1419
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 4: the sense that it forced these desperate alliances between cultures

1420
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 4: and countries and peoples who had previously been separated by

1421
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 4: major journeys months, weeks, in some cases years around the world,

1422
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:10,000
Speaker 4: and they were all then in the Cold War, tied

1423
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 4: together under the threat of instant destruction. That's very new

1424
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 4: in human history. And this is why Barbie Oppenheimer is

1425
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 4: more than just a hilarious meme, and the meme is

1426
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 4: truly hilarious. Two of the biggest movies of the summer

1427
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,640
Speaker 4: coming out on the same day, but with laughably different subjects.

1428
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 4: It's funny. I get it, and it's actually already on

1429
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 4: Wikipedia as Barbenheimer. We can put that up on the screen.

1430
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 4: And also, yeah, so you can see it there they

1431
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 4: did the little side by side we can also put

1432
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 4: up on the screen. My personal favorite of the Barbenheimer memes,

1433
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 4: this is a really good one. If you're listening, I

1434
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 4: will do the very cool thing of describing a joke

1435
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 4: to you. It's a pink cloud, like a pink mushroom

1436
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 4: looking cloud, hovering over a freeway and it says the

1437
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 4: Barbie oppenhe Heimer crossover has beengun picture. I think it's

1438
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 4: a real picture. I don't know its a gender reveal.

1439
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:05,679
Speaker 4: I don't know. I didn't do the due diligence.

1440
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 3: I didn't do it.

1441
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 4: I didn't do real I didn't do the journalism of

1442
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 4: verifying the picture and the joke. But maybe I should

1443
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:16,520
Speaker 4: have because it is a good meme. But the punchline

1444
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 4: is again obviously about Barbie and Oppenheimer being completely different.

1445
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 4: You have this sort of like hot pink comedy and

1446
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 4: very dark biopic same day they're coming out on the

1447
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 4: twenty first. Totally different in tone and subject, but actually

1448
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 4: they're tied together in a really, really important way that

1449
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 4: explains basically all of the last one hundred years. Our

1450
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 4: victory in World War Two paved the way for American

1451
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 4: consumer culture. Plastic makers who had been working on wartime

1452
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 4: supplies shifted to consumer goods. Plentiful oil supply secured by

1453
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 4: the post war American dominance in the Middle East, particularly

1454
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 4: in Saudi Arabia. The groundwork to that was laid by

1455
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:01,640
Speaker 4: FDR in particular, even before the war had ended. That

1456
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 4: kept the tap flowing, and flow it did. Soon we

1457
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 4: were so dependent that these military relationships became essential and

1458
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 4: nuclear threats loomed large. That's still where we are today, basically,

1459
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 4: even if it's not at the fever pitch of different

1460
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 4: points during the Cold War. I want to read an

1461
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 4: anecdote actually from PBS quote. A few days before the

1462
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 4: nuclear explosions at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, JW. McCoy, a DuPont

1463
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:31,680
Speaker 4: vice president, addressed a manufacturer's workshop on converting factories from

1464
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 4: military to consumer production. After the war, business would be good,

1465
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 4: he predicted, due to quote, a great backlog of unfulfilled wants.

1466
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 4: Satisfying American consumers desires for cars, washing machines, radios and

1467
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:47,480
Speaker 4: other products would create quote an upward spiral of productivity,

1468
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 4: raising the standard of living, increasing the national income, and

1469
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 4: making more jobs. But McCoy warned a satisfied people is

1470
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:58,040
Speaker 4: a stagnant people, and suggested manufacturers would have to ensure

1471
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:01,960
Speaker 4: that Americans were never satisfied. Well, that turned out to

1472
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:05,080
Speaker 4: be incredibly prescient, and again it explains why when you

1473
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 4: have Cold War proxy battles in oil rich regions, you

1474
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 4: have both of these things inextricably tied together because we

1475
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:17,600
Speaker 4: are now completely dependent. Circus University, which actually has a

1476
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 4: whole plastics center, I think it's funded by some people

1477
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 4: in the industry you'll be surprised to learn, but has

1478
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 4: some interesting research on the history of plastics, which is

1479
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 4: fairly new as we're talking about. They go on to

1480
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 4: have a really interesting particular observation about the post war

1481
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 4: period of plastics. They say, quote, the development of durable

1482
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 4: and easily motable plastics and the metal shortage of the

1483
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 4: nineteen forties triggered the plastic toy revolution of the post

1484
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 4: World War two years when deprived of the military market,

1485
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 4: producers shifted production to consumer goods. The baby boom then

1486
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 4: provided millions of children as potential customers, accessible through the

1487
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:56,640
Speaker 4: new medium of television advertising and Syracuios goes on to

1488
01:15:56,760 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 4: name Barbie as one of the toys that benefits from

1489
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 4: huge trend. Barbie was not wooden. Barbie was debuted in

1490
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:07,920
Speaker 4: nineteen fifty nine, made of plastics in nineteen ninety six.

1491
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:12,720
Speaker 4: This is another interesting observation. The La Times described Barbie's

1492
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 4: parapatetic multi country path from her raw material source in

1493
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 4: a Saudi Arabian oil field to Aisle twelve Sea of

1494
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 4: a southern California toy store. According to Mattel, the La

1495
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 4: Times article continues, all Barbie dolls are made in four

1496
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 4: Asian factories. This is of nineteen ninety six, two in China,

1497
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:33,760
Speaker 4: and one each in Indonesia and Malaysia. Barbie has never

1498
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,640
Speaker 4: been made in the United States. The first doll was

1499
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 4: produced in Japan in nineteen fifty nine, when that country

1500
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 4: was still struggling with its post World War II economic recovery.

1501
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 4: The first Barbie again was made in Japan in nineteen

1502
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,839
Speaker 4: ninety In nineteen fifty nine, in the years after atomic

1503
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 4: weapons and World War II changed that country forever. We

1504
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 4: could also talk about Barbie and the Barbie's Movie, Barbie

1505
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:03,640
Speaker 4: Movie's connection to feminism and the women's movement that got

1506
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:07,679
Speaker 4: a boost from World War two. Absolutely that parallel could

1507
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 4: be drawn. But the Oppenheimer connection here is really really direct,

1508
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 4: and it's still undergirds basically every moment of our geopolitics.

1509
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 4: It all comes down to nukes and oil, in particular

1510
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 4: the combination of those two things every day economically, militarily,

1511
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:25,680
Speaker 4: and even culturally. And that's why I think that as

1512
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:29,599
Speaker 4: funny as the Barbie Oppenheimer the Barbenheimer memes actually are,

1513
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:33,720
Speaker 4: it's also to me sort of telling that we see

1514
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 4: these things as so completely different, when in fact they're

1515
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:42,320
Speaker 4: really part in some very fundamental ways the same chapter

1516
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 4: in human history. And again even today, our relationships with

1517
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 4: so many countries around the world are dominated actually with

1518
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 4: basically every country around the world because the nuclear threat

1519
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 4: and our utter dependence, I mean basically the complete and

1520
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 4: utter dependence on both oil and the plastics that are

1521
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 4: downstream of oil that completely controls our geopolitical our geopolitical relationships,

1522
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:13,439
Speaker 4: and the nuclear threat that looms large over them changes

1523
01:18:13,479 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 4: the way for example, even even if plastic was just

1524
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:20,719
Speaker 4: a commodity think like gold and we were in years past,

1525
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 4: when you add nuclear technology to that sort of commodity dependency,

1526
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 4: that changes the way, for instance, that the United States sees.

1527
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:32,599
Speaker 4: Let's go back to the Cold War Iran, the Shaw

1528
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:36,280
Speaker 4: of Iran, that changes all of these different calculations in

1529
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 4: ways that still today are They're not just sort of

1530
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:42,240
Speaker 4: like these aren't stretches like gymnastics to get from point

1531
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 4: A to point B. They're direct connections that are driving

1532
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:49,360
Speaker 4: our geopolitics right now. So it is somewhat interesting we

1533
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 4: see both Barbie and Oppenheimer as like these these two

1534
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 4: completely different things, so much so that it is funny

1535
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 4: and with you, it's funny when in fact they are

1536
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:04,599
Speaker 4: so closely tied together in the post war period. Ryan,

1537
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 4: what have you got for us.

1538
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking at the COVID hearing.

1539
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:11,879
Speaker 5: Yesterday, this House Subcommittee on COVID Origins met and invited

1540
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 5: every author of the Proximal Origins paper. That's the influential

1541
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 5: paper that effectively discredited the idea of a lab league

1542
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 5: early in the pandemic, that stemmed from a conference call

1543
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:29,240
Speaker 5: conversation with Anthony Anthony Faucini and a variety of international experts.

1544
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 3: In the field, and so I wanted to play one

1545
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 3: clip that I thought.

1546
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 5: Was fairly representative from that rather disappointing hearing, because every

1547
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 5: Democrat that got up basically just yelled about how this

1548
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 5: was a partisan witch hunt and support and gave evidence

1549
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 5: for the why they supported the zoonotic theory of the

1550
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 5: natural origin, while being clear that they believed that this

1551
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 5: is still an open question, which was not okay to

1552
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 5: say a year and a half or so ago. Every

1553
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:04,680
Speaker 5: Republican got up, you know, strongly argued on behalf of

1554
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,519
Speaker 5: the kind of the lad League theory and the idea

1555
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:11,640
Speaker 5: that like every person on their own just happened to

1556
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 5: arrive at this completely uh you know, separate partisan conclusion.

1557
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:18,439
Speaker 5: It's just impossible to believe in it, and it and

1558
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 5: it highlighted once again how how absurdly partisan this has gotten.

1559
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:26,240
Speaker 5: Republicans Meanwhile, focused, you know, heavily on on China, which

1560
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:28,840
Speaker 5: I thought kind of overlooked a lot of the the

1561
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:29,479
Speaker 5: global and.

1562
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 3: US problems that are that are interrelated with this.

1563
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:37,880
Speaker 5: But because of the way it works, everybody gets five

1564
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 5: minutes and then you get you know, there's there's very

1565
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 5: little time for questioning. A lot of the questions just

1566
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:45,240
Speaker 5: went like this. This one from Representative Michael Cloud, a

1567
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 5: Republican in Texas. It was maybe one of the kind

1568
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 5: of cleanest back and forth that we're going to get.

1569
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 5: He's talking here to doctor Christian Anderson.

1570
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:56,400
Speaker 16: You said it was because of some new data that

1571
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 16: came available on the pack the penguin, and doctor Anderson

1572
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 16: you agreed with this. In a interview in The New

1573
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:09,000
Speaker 16: York Times. You said, for example, we looked at data

1574
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 16: from COVID being found in other species, such as bass penglins,

1575
01:21:12,479 --> 01:21:15,679
Speaker 16: which demonstrated that other features first appeared unique to cod

1576
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 16: were in fact in other related diseases. But during the

1577
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:21,600
Speaker 16: peer review part you said that was not data that

1578
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:25,679
Speaker 16: was included, that the pengelin information had no leaning into

1579
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 16: the conclusion you made.

1580
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

1581
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:33,320
Speaker 17: So the timeline keeps changing here. First it's two days,

1582
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:36,559
Speaker 17: and it's three days, it's four days. It's actually forty

1583
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 17: five days when we were talking. It's forty five days

1584
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 17: before the draft was published. I think it's a peer

1585
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 17: review period.

1586
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 16: And within two days the conclusion had changed from oh,

1587
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 16: this is not going to to, oh, it's impossible that

1588
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:49,560
Speaker 16: this could have happened.

1589
01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:51,560
Speaker 5: All right, So what he's talking about there is this

1590
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:56,480
Speaker 5: movement from on February first, twenty twenty, you had Anderson,

1591
01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 5: Gary and others saying that the way that this emerged

1592
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 5: seemed clearly to them to have come from a lab.

1593
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:11,519
Speaker 3: After this conference call, they do a one one.

1594
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 5: Hundred and eighty degree pivot and wind up concluding the

1595
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 5: opposite and then writing their proximal origin paper. And you

1596
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 5: see a little deceptiveness on the part of doctor Anderson.

1597
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 5: They're saying it was no, it's forty He's saying, look,

1598
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:25,240
Speaker 5: because what he wants to ask is how did you

1599
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 5: change your mind so quickly? What happened in just a

1600
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:29,800
Speaker 5: couple of days that changed your mind. He's like, well, no,

1601
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 5: it was forty five days. But of course, as as

1602
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:35,519
Speaker 5: representative Cloud says, it was not forty five days that

1603
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:38,040
Speaker 5: you changed your mind. Forty five days that when the

1604
01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 5: paper was published. But in that time period there's there's

1605
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 5: peer review, there's revisions, there's writing it. So it's actually

1606
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:47,160
Speaker 5: only a day or two during which you change your mind.

1607
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:54,080
Speaker 5: And the pangolent theory is the thing that these virologists

1608
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 5: had cited as a reason that they had changed their

1609
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:00,200
Speaker 5: mind so quickly, But as the as they hear and

1610
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:04,600
Speaker 5: got into later, it later emerged that this claim that

1611
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 5: there was a virus that was ninety nine percent similar

1612
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 5: to stars COVID two in panglins turned out to be untrue.

1613
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 5: And so if that's the case, the thing that got

1614
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:19,720
Speaker 5: them to change their mind was actually fake news. Now,

1615
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 5: the hearing also spent a lot of time around the

1616
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 5: question of whether or not there were financial incentives at play,

1617
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:33,320
Speaker 5: and I want to dive deeper into this, but first

1618
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 5: here's here's Anderson kind of refuting the allegations that there

1619
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:42,000
Speaker 5: was financial pressure from the niaidea that from the NIH

1620
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 5: on them to get in line with a natural origin theory.

1621
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,719
Speaker 17: Some have alleged that I have received a federal grant

1622
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 17: in exchange for the conclusions made in our approximal origent paper.

1623
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:57,759
Speaker 17: There is no connection between the grant and the paper.

1624
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 17: Funding decisions on grant were made before the pandemic, months

1625
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 17: before the February one conference call, So.

1626
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 5: That's a pretty clear assertion that he's making to Congress there.

1627
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:13,920
Speaker 5: Funding decisions for the grant were made months before the

1628
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 5: conference call. What he turns out to be referring to

1629
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:23,719
Speaker 5: are preliminary reviews of a funding application, not the final decision.

1630
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 5: And we know that because the NIH, to its credit,

1631
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 5: is fairly transparent about the way it issues these awards.

1632
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:33,680
Speaker 5: So if we can put up this element, this is

1633
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:38,000
Speaker 5: the award he's talking about. Now, my glasses on, So Emily,

1634
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 5: can you read that May twenty verst of May twenty

1635
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:44,720
Speaker 5: twenty here, okay, May twenty first, twenty twenty. You guys

1636
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:46,800
Speaker 5: can pause this and take a close look at that

1637
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:49,519
Speaker 5: if you want to. If you want to fact check

1638
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:53,519
Speaker 5: my reading of this document, you can also go to

1639
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 5: you can search. You can easily find the website here

1640
01:24:56,640 --> 01:25:00,200
Speaker 5: to search this type in Anderson twenty twenty, and this

1641
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:04,639
Speaker 5: will pop up the West African Emerging Infectious Disease Research Center.

1642
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 5: This is the center that he was hoping to get.

1643
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:10,719
Speaker 5: That he that they were hoping to get this millions

1644
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 5: in funding from the NIH four and so they had

1645
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:18,840
Speaker 5: been preliminarily approved. This is true, but they were at

1646
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 5: a crucial junction. The staff had recommended that this money

1647
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:25,599
Speaker 5: go through. It was now up to Fauci and Collins

1648
01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 5: whether or not to actually deliver the money. And if

1649
01:25:31,360 --> 01:25:33,640
Speaker 5: you hear from Anderson in this hearing, he's saying, well,

1650
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 5: that's just a formality at that point.

1651
01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 3: No, it's it was. It was baked in.

1652
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 5: But if you talk to scientists who are who have

1653
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 5: also applied for monies of this size, that's not at

1654
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:50,599
Speaker 5: all the case. If this was a thirty thousand dollars

1655
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:53,040
Speaker 5: grant for a grad student to do a project and

1656
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 5: the staff approved it, you know, NIH and I aid

1657
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 5: they're going to sign off on that, no problem, multi

1658
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:04,840
Speaker 5: million dollar you know, multi country grant. They're going to

1659
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 5: take in other considerations so we can put up this

1660
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 5: this other element. You can find these all over the

1661
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 5: NIH saying the main ANIAID Advisory Council must recommend an

1662
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 5: application for funding before we can award a grant, although

1663
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:22,639
Speaker 5: the institute makes the final funding decision. They say that's

1664
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 5: clearly all over their website. And if you talk to

1665
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:29,719
Speaker 5: scientists they will say that, you know, particularly in cases

1666
01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:35,719
Speaker 5: that involve kind of geopolitical sensitivities that involve and involve

1667
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:39,880
Speaker 5: funding priorities, like are what are the current priorities? It's

1668
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:42,960
Speaker 5: not enough just this has scientific value, does it fit

1669
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 5: the current funding priorities? And that's as it should be.

1670
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:48,519
Speaker 5: The leadership of these organizations ought to make the final call.

1671
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:51,080
Speaker 5: So to be clear that Democrats made a lot of

1672
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:56,599
Speaker 5: hay over the fact that Anderson said that the funding

1673
01:26:56,720 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 5: decisions were made before this conference call, when in fact,

1674
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 5: the funding decision was made after this conference call. Are

1675
01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:10,800
Speaker 5: we going to be talking in this segment about the

1676
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:14,080
Speaker 5: recent elections in Sierra Leone, But we wanted to start

1677
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 5: speaking of the COVID hearing that took place yesterday with

1678
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:20,719
Speaker 5: a reference of Sierra Leone that came in the opening

1679
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 5: statement by virologist Bob Gary.

1680
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:23,880
Speaker 3: Here's role this.

1681
01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:27,160
Speaker 6: For nearly twenty years, I've worked closely with scientists and

1682
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:32,120
Speaker 6: clinicians at the Kenema Government Hospital in Sierra Leone. KGH

1683
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 6: is a major site for research on the virus that

1684
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:38,719
Speaker 6: caused his last the fever. Ten years ago. Ebolavirus emerged

1685
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,960
Speaker 6: just fifty miles from Kinema. Ultimately, this abola outbreak would

1686
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:46,320
Speaker 6: claim the lives of thousands of people, including dozens of

1687
01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:48,719
Speaker 6: healthcare workers at the Kenema Government Hospital.

1688
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 5: So we're going to be joining this segment by Sierra

1689
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 5: Leonian journalist churn Oba, who many of you may remember.

1690
01:27:54,160 --> 01:27:57,760
Speaker 5: We interviewed him several months ago about his book on

1691
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:01,160
Speaker 5: the Abola outbreak in Sierra Leone, so I wanted to

1692
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 5: ask him about this first chourno.

1693
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:04,479
Speaker 3: Welcome to the program, Thanks much for joining us.

1694
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:06,719
Speaker 7: Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure

1695
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:07,120
Speaker 7: to be here.

1696
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:11,559
Speaker 5: So what did you think about hearing Gary bring up

1697
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:15,040
Speaker 5: the lab in Sierra Leone? And particularly I noticed that

1698
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:19,000
Speaker 5: he referenced the work that the lab does on the

1699
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:22,599
Speaker 5: Lassa virus, which nobody asked him what kind of work

1700
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:23,920
Speaker 5: was going on in that lab.

1701
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:25,520
Speaker 3: There's been an enormous.

1702
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 5: Amount of reporting yours, most prominently that there was a

1703
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:31,639
Speaker 5: lot of a Bowler research going on in that lab

1704
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:34,720
Speaker 5: as well. Papers were written by scientists from that lab

1705
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:36,639
Speaker 5: about that a Bowler research.

1706
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:40,320
Speaker 3: Did it strike you the same way it struck me

1707
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:41,759
Speaker 3: that he got.

1708
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 5: So specific about the Lassa virus work being done in

1709
01:28:45,479 --> 01:28:45,840
Speaker 5: that lab.

1710
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:49,360
Speaker 18: In my book, I had even mentioned the fact that

1711
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:53,680
Speaker 18: the CDC had been present in the region since the

1712
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:58,920
Speaker 18: nineteen seventies, doing lots of FIFA work and funding lots

1713
01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:01,560
Speaker 18: of FIVA resides. So in fact, that was what we

1714
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 18: got my interest in investigating the ebolar outbreak and arguing

1715
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:10,800
Speaker 18: or pointing to the fact that we cannot understand the

1716
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:14,200
Speaker 18: causes of the e boler outbreak without looking at what

1717
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 18: the viral Homlogic Fever consultant was doing in the region

1718
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:20,599
Speaker 18: ten years preceding the outbreak.

1719
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:22,720
Speaker 7: So it did not surprise me that.

1720
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:28,400
Speaker 18: Any effort to understand COVID will have to first start

1721
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:30,880
Speaker 18: with the same, you know, kind of work that was

1722
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:33,320
Speaker 18: done in West Africa, because we're talking about the same

1723
01:29:33,360 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 18: individuals and the same groups of science organizations that were

1724
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:41,800
Speaker 18: involved in So we have been calling for an investigation

1725
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:47,200
Speaker 18: into the Ebola outbreak, and unfortunately since the outbreak, this

1726
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:49,840
Speaker 18: is the first time we are have in some kind

1727
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:57,559
Speaker 18: of hearings that appear to reference the outbreak in West Africa.

1728
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:01,559
Speaker 18: We're hoping that a similar kind of investigat at least

1729
01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:04,080
Speaker 18: I hear in that drills into the questions that we

1730
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:07,280
Speaker 18: have been asking years ago might happen.

1731
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:10,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and for people who missed it, will put the

1732
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 5: link to your previous interview in the in the notes

1733
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:16,400
Speaker 5: to this one. But today we wanted to talk about

1734
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:19,360
Speaker 5: the election, the presidential election in Sia Loan, which you

1735
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 5: mentioned in your in your last interview, So can you

1736
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:25,760
Speaker 5: bring us up to speed. What what are the kind

1737
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:29,000
Speaker 5: of political parties and political formations in Sieri early on

1738
01:30:29,120 --> 01:30:30,799
Speaker 5: that we're competing in the selection.

1739
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 18: The politics empower and Salion has been dominated by two

1740
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:38,519
Speaker 18: major factions as I call them, of the elite, divided

1741
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:41,560
Speaker 18: into two parties known as this relion People's Party the

1742
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:45,879
Speaker 18: SLPP that is currently in power and the major opposition

1743
01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:49,080
Speaker 18: party the All People's Congress that was previously empowered before.

1744
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:52,840
Speaker 7: This current party that's in power.

1745
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:54,720
Speaker 18: In fact, the a PC was in power when the

1746
01:30:54,800 --> 01:31:00,439
Speaker 18: Bulla outbreak that we just mentioned happened. So it peers

1747
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 18: that these two parties have been there for the modern

1748
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,440
Speaker 18: sixty years now since the transition to what we call independence,

1749
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 18: and they have dominated. The elites of these parties have

1750
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 18: dominated and monopolized politics for the last sixty years. There

1751
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 18: has been no all independent effort to organize against these

1752
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:23,080
Speaker 18: two factions of the middle class as I call them.

1753
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,600
Speaker 18: Over the years have not been you know, have not

1754
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:29,560
Speaker 18: succeeded in this placing them. Part of the reasons that

1755
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:32,519
Speaker 18: there seems to be some kind of arrangement. We are

1756
01:31:32,560 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 18: the rotate power after every you know, ten years, and

1757
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:41,719
Speaker 18: this is the first time where individuals, groups of regular

1758
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 18: citizens mobilized to vote against a government that has openly

1759
01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 18: become dictatorial and repressive.

1760
01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:50,479
Speaker 7: Over the last five years.

1761
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:56,280
Speaker 18: Dozens of people have been killed and no you know,

1762
01:31:56,360 --> 01:32:00,600
Speaker 18: investigation or hearing has been done on that situay, and

1763
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:05,679
Speaker 18: we have highlighted corruption and the dictatorial tendencies of the government.

1764
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:10,080
Speaker 18: So the elections that happened, the current president declared himself

1765
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,560
Speaker 18: or was declared the winner of the elections. When the

1766
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:17,000
Speaker 18: elections we are incomplete, votes we are not fully counted.

1767
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:21,759
Speaker 18: They were not fully tabulated, and pretty much every organization

1768
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:26,479
Speaker 18: that has been or that was present during the voting process,

1769
01:32:26,680 --> 01:32:30,760
Speaker 18: and this includes the Catch Center and the European Union

1770
01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:34,400
Speaker 18: and various other international organizations that supposedly when there to

1771
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 18: monitor the elections have classified them as non transparent elections.

1772
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:40,640
Speaker 18: But we are pointing to the fact that it's not

1773
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:43,280
Speaker 18: just a question of lack of transparency, but there is

1774
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,720
Speaker 18: illegality surrounding the way the elections we are conducted.

1775
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:50,959
Speaker 7: So in a general sense, we had no proper elections.

1776
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 18: They just decided to allow the president to continue because

1777
01:32:56,520 --> 01:33:02,800
Speaker 18: there appears to be a consensus among these parties, both

1778
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:06,040
Speaker 18: the opposition party and the ruling party to allow the

1779
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:08,960
Speaker 18: president to continue for two times because that appears to

1780
01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:11,959
Speaker 18: be the only time to shift power amongst themselves.

1781
01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:15,720
Speaker 4: You report extensively on this corruption and your article, and

1782
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:17,320
Speaker 4: we can put that up on the screen. That's the

1783
01:33:17,400 --> 01:33:20,600
Speaker 4: next element I want to ask her, not about what

1784
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:22,720
Speaker 4: the hope is and what the next steps are for

1785
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:25,920
Speaker 4: people outside of the ruling party and the opposition party,

1786
01:33:26,240 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 4: who you say they've reached a consensus allowing corruption to

1787
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 4: continue festering and illegitimate elections to be rubber stamped. What

1788
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:38,160
Speaker 4: does it look like for people who have hoped for

1789
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:42,920
Speaker 4: democracy that looks less corrupt than this going forward.

1790
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:47,240
Speaker 18: Well, that is what we have been putting forward. If

1791
01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:51,120
Speaker 18: they agree that the only legitimate means of changing the

1792
01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:54,440
Speaker 18: government is through the ballot box, and groups of organizations,

1793
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:57,680
Speaker 18: including the United States, governments around the world who are

1794
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:02,240
Speaker 18: partners of the corrupt politicians in SRIL, you know, we'll

1795
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:05,040
Speaker 18: not just call that kind of facade as an election,

1796
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 18: because where an election is where people are allowed to

1797
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:10,600
Speaker 18: really participate. We have a lot that was brought in

1798
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:13,200
Speaker 18: in Parliament a year before the election that gave the

1799
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:16,479
Speaker 18: Electoral Commission and the current president the power to determine

1800
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 18: how the elections would be conducted and the program the

1801
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:23,519
Speaker 18: political environment in a way that we will have the

1802
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 18: current outcome that we have.

1803
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:26,960
Speaker 3: So we expect.

1804
01:34:28,400 --> 01:34:32,400
Speaker 18: These individuals who claim that's the only way to compete

1805
01:34:32,439 --> 01:34:35,120
Speaker 18: for power to respect the rules that they have developed

1806
01:34:35,160 --> 01:34:37,320
Speaker 18: for them, you know, for these kinds of competitions. But

1807
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:40,840
Speaker 18: they have openly allowed the subversion of that kind of situation.

1808
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 18: And as we speak right now, there has not been

1809
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 18: any significant efforts to call into question the current situation

1810
01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:51,520
Speaker 18: in Isralia. What we hear is just issues of transparency.

1811
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:53,400
Speaker 18: It goes way beyond that. We have to talk about

1812
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:59,439
Speaker 18: the responsibility of these individuals, both the United States, Europe

1813
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 18: and the politicians in Surralians, you know, in holding each

1814
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:06,639
Speaker 18: other responsible for denying cerel unions the right to decide

1815
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:09,160
Speaker 18: the kind of government under which they want.

1816
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:10,000
Speaker 3: To leave Charnel.

1817
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 5: Can you give us a couple examples of the kinds

1818
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:16,040
Speaker 5: of irregularities that have been uncovered.

1819
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:20,080
Speaker 18: Well, they include virtually the failure of the Electoral Commission

1820
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:23,320
Speaker 18: to count, to properly count the votes, to properly tablet

1821
01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:27,640
Speaker 18: the elections board open above that the law requires that

1822
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:30,760
Speaker 18: an order for a presidential election to be for a

1823
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:33,120
Speaker 18: for a winner of a presdential election to be announced,

1824
01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:36,640
Speaker 18: they have to account the ballot at the votes in

1825
01:35:36,680 --> 01:35:39,280
Speaker 18: the opoling stations, then at the district level, at the

1826
01:35:39,320 --> 01:35:43,920
Speaker 18: regional level before the results are collated and tabulated at

1827
01:35:43,960 --> 01:35:46,320
Speaker 18: the national office.

1828
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 7: And that was not done.

1829
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:53,599
Speaker 18: In fact, individuals who supervised the the elections citizens, ordinary

1830
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:59,000
Speaker 18: citizens and including political parties complained that in fact, district

1831
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:02,320
Speaker 18: returning of a regional officers have not completed their own

1832
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:06,400
Speaker 18: tabulation process, their own calculations when the presidential election results

1833
01:36:06,439 --> 01:36:09,599
Speaker 18: were announced. So that means that what the Electoral Commission

1834
01:36:09,720 --> 01:36:14,639
Speaker 18: announced was basically the result of the result of numbers.

1835
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 18: They just came out with their own numbers that do

1836
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:20,160
Speaker 18: not reflect the actual votes that the people who accounted,

1837
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:23,960
Speaker 18: so up to now we have been asking for you know,

1838
01:36:25,680 --> 01:36:28,679
Speaker 18: we're are the votes of the people. And even international

1839
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:30,680
Speaker 18: organizations are so embarrassed to the point that they are

1840
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 18: now asking for disaggregated, for the numbers to be disaggregated,

1841
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:38,120
Speaker 18: basically for the Electoral Commission to show how they came

1842
01:36:38,240 --> 01:36:42,040
Speaker 18: up with the figures from the pulling stations to the district,

1843
01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 18: the district centers and the regional centers and that has

1844
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:46,920
Speaker 18: not been done.

1845
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:50,680
Speaker 4: You mentioned this earlier, but what more can you tell

1846
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:54,080
Speaker 4: us about how the West and the United States and

1847
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:59,719
Speaker 4: other international organizations are reacting to the results. I should

1848
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 4: say that in air quotes out Australia.

1849
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:06,680
Speaker 18: Well, they are basically just classified elections as non transparent elections.

1850
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:09,960
Speaker 18: But we are saying that it goes way beyond just

1851
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:13,280
Speaker 18: the question of transparency, that the electual commission organizing the

1852
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 18: elections in a secret fashion or not allowing people access

1853
01:37:18,960 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 18: to monitor the elections. It deals with a range of

1854
01:37:22,280 --> 01:37:26,640
Speaker 18: irregularities and illegalities where the elections that you know, we

1855
01:37:26,720 --> 01:37:30,519
Speaker 18: are not conducted following the public elections laws. So an

1856
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 18: election does not conform to the rules and regulations that

1857
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 18: we have in that country for the conduct of elections.

1858
01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 7: It's basically an illegal arrangement.

1859
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:42,719
Speaker 18: So any government that results from the illegal conduct of elections,

1860
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:44,760
Speaker 18: it's an illegal regime. So it has to be called

1861
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:47,559
Speaker 18: that way. But when you just describe the situation as

1862
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:52,560
Speaker 18: non transparent, it is an ambiguous way of basically, you know,

1863
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:58,120
Speaker 18: it opens the discussion to conceptual issues rather than the

1864
01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:01,720
Speaker 18: actual crime that has been that has been committed. But

1865
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:06,880
Speaker 18: it's so unfortunate because on June thirtieth, the US International

1866
01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:12,280
Speaker 18: Development Finance Corporation approved one fifty million dollars loan to

1867
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:15,519
Speaker 18: the Suma Group, which is a private company that's in

1868
01:38:15,600 --> 01:38:19,200
Speaker 18: charge of running the national airport in Isralon. And that

1869
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:24,120
Speaker 18: airport was built by that company through a contract awarded

1870
01:38:24,200 --> 01:38:27,799
Speaker 18: to them by the current government and the Parliament without

1871
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:32,000
Speaker 18: proper scrutiny and without citizens being aware of the details

1872
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:35,080
Speaker 18: of that of that agreement. So such kinds of funding

1873
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:40,240
Speaker 18: that goes to fund projects and programs undertaken by the

1874
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:43,639
Speaker 18: Government of Australian by the United States and Europe, even

1875
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:48,000
Speaker 18: as we speak of these kinds of illegalities and discrepancies

1876
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:51,800
Speaker 18: in voting processes and the way the country has been run,

1877
01:38:51,880 --> 01:38:56,320
Speaker 18: emboldened dictators and leaders like the current President Australian who

1878
01:38:57,080 --> 01:39:01,720
Speaker 18: is openly stealing vote. We have a year ago, we

1879
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:04,360
Speaker 18: have in the African space, we've published the fact that

1880
01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:07,200
Speaker 18: the current government cannot win a free and fear election

1881
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:11,479
Speaker 18: based on the objective conditions on the ground, the desperate

1882
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:16,439
Speaker 18: economic situation, the economic crisis, coupled with the dictorial tendencies

1883
01:39:16,479 --> 01:39:18,960
Speaker 18: of the government, detroitarian nature of how the brand the

1884
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:23,880
Speaker 18: government corruption that we've reported about so we knew that

1885
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:26,679
Speaker 18: the only way the government is going to retain power

1886
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:29,559
Speaker 18: is by rigging the elections. And we have also pointed

1887
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:32,360
Speaker 18: in advance that they cannot rig the elections without the

1888
01:39:32,439 --> 01:39:35,360
Speaker 18: complicity of the opposition parties on the ground, and which

1889
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:38,400
Speaker 18: is why we have been calling for effective international monitoring

1890
01:39:38,479 --> 01:39:41,000
Speaker 18: of the elections. And it ended up in the situation

1891
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:44,160
Speaker 18: where the politicians can not to steal the popular mandate

1892
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 18: of the people in front of the whole world. So

1893
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:50,600
Speaker 18: we believe such kinds of governments cannot be funded. The

1894
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:55,960
Speaker 18: US and the European partners cannot continue to give taxpayers

1895
01:39:56,000 --> 01:39:59,080
Speaker 18: money to politicians who steal elections, because any individual who

1896
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 18: steals ational election cannot be trusted with the with the

1897
01:40:03,439 --> 01:40:07,000
Speaker 18: management of the national economy, let alone being awarded loans

1898
01:40:07,040 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 18: and grants more debts from international organization like the US

1899
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:16,240
Speaker 18: International Development Finance Corporation. So the US has to hold

1900
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 18: itself accountable to its own its own standards of governance

1901
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:22,280
Speaker 18: that it claims to promote around the world, which is

1902
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:24,560
Speaker 18: what we that's the message we want to call We

1903
01:40:25,040 --> 01:40:29,320
Speaker 18: we expect them to be able to impress upon their

1904
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 18: partners around the world, including the government Australia and the

1905
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 18: need to maintain human rights, they need to respect the

1906
01:40:35,439 --> 01:40:39,240
Speaker 18: freedoms of its own citizens, and not only that, to

1907
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:43,800
Speaker 18: impress upon them the minimum standards of good governors and accountability.

1908
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:47,479
Speaker 18: So when they fund, when they give loans like the

1909
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 18: current credit that they've approved for the funding an expansion

1910
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 18: of the of the Salinar Airport, it emboldens leaders like

1911
01:40:55,120 --> 01:40:59,519
Speaker 18: Julius ma W who has hijacked demandate of the people

1912
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:01,320
Speaker 18: and you know, the plants from the country in the

1913
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 18: colony of Gangstans.

1914
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:06,280
Speaker 5: And two final questions for you, uh, you know, as

1915
01:41:06,439 --> 01:41:09,799
Speaker 5: as socialist, you've been critical of of both of these parties.

1916
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 5: I remember you were hopeful that the elections might lead

1917
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:16,639
Speaker 5: to some pathway toward the end of your exile. You're

1918
01:41:16,640 --> 01:41:20,880
Speaker 5: currently joining US, uh, you know, from Chicago rather than

1919
01:41:21,200 --> 01:41:24,440
Speaker 5: Sierra Leone because of the work that you've done uncovering

1920
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:27,640
Speaker 5: corruptions serially. And so I'm curious one and what what

1921
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:30,519
Speaker 5: do you think these elections results mean for you personally?

1922
01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:32,760
Speaker 5: But then also too what do they mean for the

1923
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:36,519
Speaker 5: long term future of Sierra Leone. If if people decide

1924
01:41:36,560 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 5: that democracy is just a facade, if there's no point

1925
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:39,960
Speaker 5: in participating in it.

1926
01:41:40,520 --> 01:41:43,519
Speaker 3: Are they going to seek channel channels outside of.

1927
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 5: Electoralism that could that could lead toward h toward violence

1928
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:52,960
Speaker 5: and other other ways of enacting policy change, or that

1929
01:41:53,120 --> 01:41:55,240
Speaker 5: they that they're clearly as demand for.

1930
01:41:56,320 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 18: Yes, the entire West African region is prone to conflict.

1931
01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 18: If you look around West Africa now you have crices

1932
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:07,400
Speaker 18: andical conflict in Guinea conacred as a result of elections.

1933
01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:11,600
Speaker 18: We look at the unstable situation in Nigeria and we

1934
01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 18: have elections coming up in.

1935
01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:15,800
Speaker 7: Liberia.

1936
01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:20,120
Speaker 18: So every course was recently faced with the same kind

1937
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:24,679
Speaker 18: of political crisis. We have Mali and the entire region

1938
01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:28,519
Speaker 18: is in conflagration. We have the same kind of issues

1939
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:32,719
Speaker 18: they were dealing with in arm Senegal, not to love

1940
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:35,719
Speaker 18: in a few weeks ago, where masses of young people

1941
01:42:35,720 --> 01:42:38,040
Speaker 18: who are out on the street the money from an

1942
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:41,560
Speaker 18: accountab leadership and effective participation. So what these kinds of

1943
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:47,120
Speaker 18: situations when you have regular citizens men and women who's

1944
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:53,000
Speaker 18: who are living on trading foods and vegetables that you know,

1945
01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:55,040
Speaker 18: the tutality of which is not more than five dollars

1946
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:58,320
Speaker 18: living that and then standing on queues for the rest

1947
01:42:58,360 --> 01:43:01,639
Speaker 18: of the day and trying to see if the battle

1948
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:04,000
Speaker 18: boss can serve as an instrument to make their voices.

1949
01:43:04,040 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 18: Had to deny that opportunity, then you open up the

1950
01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:09,800
Speaker 18: space for the kinds of possibilities people might think of

1951
01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:13,200
Speaker 18: other ways to actualize their own citizenship. And we most

1952
01:43:13,280 --> 01:43:17,479
Speaker 18: remember the fact that Sralian not too long ago, that

1953
01:43:17,800 --> 01:43:18,759
Speaker 18: entire region librarian.

1954
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:19,759
Speaker 7: So I don't we're in conflict.

1955
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:24,000
Speaker 18: We entered into civil war for ten years because we

1956
01:43:24,120 --> 01:43:27,599
Speaker 18: had a dictatorial one party state that was there from

1957
01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:31,519
Speaker 18: nineteen from nineteen seventies right up to the nineteen nineties.

1958
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:34,080
Speaker 18: By nineteen ninety one, we had a conflict that ended

1959
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:38,080
Speaker 18: in two thousand and one. And we're hoping that we

1960
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:42,479
Speaker 18: cannot have the same groups of organizations that led the

1961
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:45,600
Speaker 18: country to war programming the country and to add the

1962
01:43:45,680 --> 01:43:48,960
Speaker 18: part way to more conflict and the possibility of crisis.

1963
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:50,559
Speaker 7: So that's what we've been warning against.

1964
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:54,040
Speaker 18: Personally, I have been affected by that situation because I

1965
01:43:54,120 --> 01:43:57,120
Speaker 18: am currently unable to go back home for doing nothing

1966
01:43:57,200 --> 01:44:01,840
Speaker 18: other than just highlighting and advocating that governments must be

1967
01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 18: transparent with the you know, leaders should be held accountable

1968
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:10,680
Speaker 18: to the basic principles of governance and transparency, and we

1969
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 18: cannot have a handle full of people less than one

1970
01:44:13,600 --> 01:44:17,240
Speaker 18: percent of the population holding onto the state and using

1971
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:20,800
Speaker 18: it as a basis of personal aggrandizement instead of providing

1972
01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:23,880
Speaker 18: basic economic and social services for the rest of the population.

1973
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:27,240
Speaker 18: As we speak now, major parts of Servilian lacky lift

1974
01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 18: systm supply more than ninety percent of the country. Of

1975
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 18: all the country's population do not have the basic conditions

1976
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:37,920
Speaker 18: of human existence absence of adequate housing facilities.

1977
01:44:38,080 --> 01:44:41,360
Speaker 7: Healthcare is a problem, education is a challenge.

1978
01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 18: You know, some of the worst statistics when it comes

1979
01:44:46,400 --> 01:44:50,560
Speaker 18: to infant and maternal mortality rates. These conditions are the

1980
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 18: result of corruption of mismanagement that has been ongoing with

1981
01:44:55,520 --> 01:45:00,280
Speaker 18: impunity by the politicians of the two dominant factions. And

1982
01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:03,280
Speaker 18: we were hoping that at this time the elections, these

1983
01:45:03,400 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 18: elections that just got rigged openly in front of the

1984
01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:10,800
Speaker 18: whole world, would have empowered citizens with the belief and

1985
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:13,679
Speaker 18: the fit that at least the ballot box can answer

1986
01:45:13,760 --> 01:45:16,920
Speaker 18: to their own problems, can serve as a check to

1987
01:45:17,360 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 18: these kinds of politics of a bandit tree that we

1988
01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 18: have experienced for the last sixty years. But unfortunately, while

1989
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:29,640
Speaker 18: these politicians are looting public funds, they openly ganged up

1990
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:34,559
Speaker 18: to loot the votes of citizens people. You know, they

1991
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:37,800
Speaker 18: just announced results without properly counting the votes. It cannot

1992
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:38,439
Speaker 18: get worse than that.

1993
01:45:39,560 --> 01:45:42,679
Speaker 5: Well, churn Obi, thank you so much for your reporting

1994
01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:45,080
Speaker 5: and thanks for joining us on our show Turno as

1995
01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:48,040
Speaker 5: an editor of Africanist Press, Thanks again for joining us,

1996
01:45:48,240 --> 01:45:49,360
Speaker 5: and then I'll do it for us today.

1997
01:45:49,400 --> 01:45:50,960
Speaker 3: Thanks everybody for watching Counterpoints.

1998
01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:53,280
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Ryan, it was great to have you back.

1999
01:45:53,800 --> 01:45:55,360
Speaker 3: Good to be back and we'll see you next week

2000
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:05,519
Speaker 6: At the expected to s