Speaker 1: If you're like me, you probably listened to, or perhaps
Speaker 1: we're obsessed with the Missing Richard Simmons podcast. The host
Speaker 1: and creator Dan to Birsky, spent a few years trying
Speaker 1: to find out why Richard Simmons abruptly cut himself off
Speaker 1: from his adoring fans and so many good friends he
Speaker 1: made along the way. So over the course of this series,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for Richard. I'm reaching out in any way
Speaker 1: I can and exploring every theory. The goal isn't to
Speaker 1: drag him back. It's to find out why someone like
Speaker 1: him would ditch the world. This is Missing Richard Simmons.
Speaker 1: Dan visited Richard's brother in New Orleans. He pretty much
Speaker 1: talked to everyone who knew Richard at some point in
Speaker 1: their lives. Richard Simmons hasn't been seen in public for
Speaker 1: over three years. I was particularly interested in this podcast
Speaker 1: because I had interviewed Richard several times in the past,
Speaker 1: and I too was worried about him. And I have
Speaker 1: to be honest, listening to this made me fall in
Speaker 1: love with Richard Simmons all over again. And I'm not
Speaker 1: the only one. This podcast has been a huge hit.
Speaker 1: It was the number one most downloaded podcast on iTunes.
Speaker 1: But now that the show was over all six episodes,
Speaker 1: there are still a lot of questions. I guess the
Speaker 1: primary one is why did Richard become a recluse? But
Speaker 1: there are also people who are questioning Dan's decision to
Speaker 1: make this podcast and the ethics of doing so. In fact,
Speaker 1: the New York Times even called it quote unquote morally suspect.
Speaker 1: So I sat down with Dan to talk about why
Speaker 1: he wanted to do this, what his experience was like,
Speaker 1: and his reaction to all the criticism. Dan to Bersky,
Speaker 1: is so nice to see you. Dan. So how are
Speaker 1: you feeling now that everything is done? I can't imagine
Speaker 1: the wild ride you've been on. It was a wild
Speaker 1: ride and it was, um it still is, I guess
Speaker 1: a little bit. Um. I'm I am super pleased that
Speaker 1: it's done, just because until it's done, you don't know
Speaker 1: how it's going to turn out, quality wise, and I'm
Speaker 1: super happy with how it turned out. Um, but it
Speaker 1: was a lot. It was a lot of It started
Speaker 1: out just like we watched a creep up the iTunes
Speaker 1: start and then people your phone start ringing, and then
Speaker 1: it is an avalanche. Uh, and it struck a chord,
Speaker 1: which is so lovely. I'm super excited about that. So
Speaker 1: it was a little overwhelming, And of course it's been controversial.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of criticism of the podcast, and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that later, but I want to talk
Speaker 1: about this as a medium, if you will. You're a
Speaker 1: documentary filmmaker. You did a film called These cock Sucking Tears,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to say that because I thought people
Speaker 1: would enjoy hearing me say the title of your film.
Speaker 1: I wanted And you also obviously worked in television a
Speaker 1: producer at The Daily Show, So what made you decide
Speaker 1: to do a podcast instead of a TV show. It
Speaker 1: was an unusual story, and I was sort of following
Speaker 1: it as it was happening, and I was doing it
Speaker 1: as a documentary. I started shooting it as a documentary.
Speaker 1: I was shooting video and I actually started on my iPhone.
Speaker 1: I was literally like I had the whole rig and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was doing it all myself. And I think part
Speaker 1: of that is just like it needs to reach critical mass,
Speaker 1: like you just got. You think it would have been
Speaker 1: successful as a film. As a documentary, I'm really glad
Speaker 1: it wasn't a documentary, because what happens to the documentary
Speaker 1: is that you finished it and then there's like a
Speaker 1: year until it comes out. I also think it would
Speaker 1: have I think oddly just the audio. Just having audio
Speaker 1: only is more intimate, even though you're missing a sense.
Speaker 1: But I actually think having the visuals as well might
Speaker 1: have made it fee you a little more invasive and
Speaker 1: not in a good way. Like it's just and a
Speaker 1: lot of people are uncomfortable with their bodies that I'm
Speaker 1: talking to, and you know, it just adds another element
Speaker 1: of do I really want to pour my heart out
Speaker 1: to you? And were you influenced by any other podcasts?
Speaker 1: For example? Were you a big fan of Sereal? Is
Speaker 1: that one of the things that made you gravitate towards this? Um?
Speaker 1: I was influenced by serial and just that I really
Speaker 1: liked it. UM. I will say I don't have a
Speaker 1: particular love of like mystery, like I don't love true crime.
Speaker 1: That was a big part of this, not true crime,
Speaker 1: but the mystery element. Yeah, and and part of but
Speaker 1: also part of that was me figuring out how to
Speaker 1: do that part and sometimes in the podcast with my
Speaker 1: producer Henry, like, I don't know if it comes through
Speaker 1: in the podcast. But sometimes you know, and especially the
Speaker 1: people at pine Stream Media, they were pushing me to
Speaker 1: do things due diligence. You have to do the basics.
Speaker 1: You have to reach out this way and that way,
Speaker 1: and those are the things that made me uncomfortable, but
Speaker 1: that still needed to be done. Like the sort of
Speaker 1: mystery solving parts were not my favorite part. The favorite
Speaker 1: parts we're talking about Richard and the impact he had.
Speaker 1: What kinds of things do they make you do that
Speaker 1: made you uncomfortable, Katy? I mean you opened that door, Dan, No,
Speaker 1: not anything I'm uncomfortable to. You know, this sounds absurd,
Speaker 1: but sometimes I'm just uncomfortable to talk to people. And
Speaker 1: so things like you know, just going and knocking on
Speaker 1: Richard's door, like that was something I needed to do.
Speaker 1: I needed to reach out to Richard and just do
Speaker 1: the basics, like if he answered the door and he's like,
Speaker 1: hey man, come on in, Like there goes a podcast.
Speaker 1: But I needed to know those things. Let's peek behind
Speaker 1: the curtains. Tell us how much traveling you did, the
Speaker 1: reporting that you did before the episode started to air,
Speaker 1: how this was done in real time? Can you just
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your process feel like
Speaker 1: I'm interviewing Martin Scorsese. Somehow I appreciate the comparison. I
Speaker 1: don't get carried away totally the other way. No, I
Speaker 1: didn't mean that, but I just, you know, I want
Speaker 1: you to get too big for your bridges. As my
Speaker 1: mom would say, it will not happen. My bridges are
Speaker 1: just fine. The process was, um, it was a long one.
Speaker 1: I mean I had originally met Richard in two thousand twelve,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to do a documentary on him from
Speaker 1: the beginning. Uh, And so that was our process of
Speaker 1: getting to know each other was you know, we were
Speaker 1: getting to know each other, but there was also you know,
Speaker 1: there was another level of like do I trust you
Speaker 1: to tell my story? So that started in two thousand twelve.
Speaker 1: He disappeared in two thousand thirteen, and then about a
Speaker 1: year later, I kind of realized that everybody was sort
Speaker 1: of wondering what is going on? And there were no
Speaker 1: easy answers, and a lot of people were really worried, um,
Speaker 1: sincerely worried. Um. What did he say when you approached
Speaker 1: him about a documentary? He said no? Wink, he said,
Speaker 1: he said no. And then but he said it with
Speaker 1: a smile, and we kept talking and I that was
Speaker 1: the first day I took his class, and I said,
Speaker 1: all right, I'll just keep going to class. And so
Speaker 1: I did you bring it up again? Uh? Not for
Speaker 1: a while. Um. And then maybe six months later I
Speaker 1: kind of raised it again and then what did he say?
Speaker 1: He said, I don't remember exactly what I said, but
Speaker 1: it was like a slow process of he sort of
Speaker 1: invited me to come to behind the scenes of one
Speaker 1: of the tapings of his videos. Um. And then he
Speaker 1: sort of invited me to lunch where we could talk
Speaker 1: about it just that without like the class or anything
Speaker 1: else distracting us. So you felt like you were making
Speaker 1: some progress in achieving your goal of producing a documentary. Sure, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. And then no, uh, we we actually started
Speaker 1: doing negotiating a deal um about which gets complicated about
Speaker 1: life rights and stuff like that, and house it's gonna work. Um.
Speaker 1: And then sort of an early fall of two thousand thirteen, Um,
Speaker 1: he I moved back to New York, uh, and he
Speaker 1: put it on hold. And then a couple months later
Speaker 1: he had disappeared, but we were still in touch and
Speaker 1: still talking. He just wasn't quite ready, um, but then
Speaker 1: he the disappeared quite literally. But you really thought it
Speaker 1: was all systems go, that the two of you were
Speaker 1: going to make a documentary together. I thought, no, I
Speaker 1: thought we had hit a we hit a pause button,
Speaker 1: which is totally fine, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we
Speaker 1: were for sure like it was a we were doing it,
Speaker 1: like you told people in the class, and like you
Speaker 1: said it out loud and we talked. Yet for sure
Speaker 1: it was happening. You also traveled extensively, went to New
Speaker 1: Orleans and showed up outside his brother's house there you,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, went to Richard's house in l A.
Speaker 1: How much traveling did you have to do for this?
Speaker 1: I would say, I mean I went to we went
Speaker 1: to New Orleans, and we went to Mississippi, and then
Speaker 1: I went to l A about five or six times.
Speaker 1: I mean I was out there, I would say for
Speaker 1: four weeks altogether for this, which, gosh, I guess that's
Speaker 1: a lot. You set boundaries for yourself, Dan, You did
Speaker 1: you going into this say I won't do A, B
Speaker 1: and C. Or did those boundaries evolve as the project
Speaker 1: went on? The boundaries definitely did not evolve. Um, I
Speaker 1: would say, I mean I don't consider myself a journalist.
Speaker 1: I consider myself a documentarian, which are very similar rules,
Speaker 1: but documentarians is a little more artful. You're trying, you're
Speaker 1: you're allowed to be a little looser, not with the facts,
Speaker 1: but with how you're expressing things. Um. But also the
Speaker 1: easier rule was just like I consider him a friend
Speaker 1: of mine, and what would you do to a friend
Speaker 1: of yours? Like that became not pretending like I wasn't
Speaker 1: out to get this guy. I wasn't out too upset him.
Speaker 1: I wasn't out to expose anything. So just saying like,
Speaker 1: you know what, like I'm not doing that. He's like,
Speaker 1: I consider him my friend. He wouldn't want that, Like
Speaker 1: that was kind of an easy line. So how did
Speaker 1: you figure out which lines you wouldn't cross? Whichever one's
Speaker 1: made me nauseous? It's a it's a I only I'm
Speaker 1: only half kidding, Like if I really just don't feel right,
Speaker 1: I'm just like I don't want to do that, Like
Speaker 1: I have to decide if it's um, if it's just nerves,
Speaker 1: or if it's really like now, there's something wrong with that.
Speaker 1: Like in the past three years, I've been outside of
Speaker 1: Richard's house maybe a total ten minutes, like you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like a lot of the things that
Speaker 1: people think, oh, you crossed boundaries, Like in fact, people
Speaker 1: just think we cross boundary because we're showing them what
Speaker 1: we were doing, like we were quite honest. Like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go knock on the door now, because that's basic.
Speaker 1: You gotta do it if you're looking for somebody whereas
Speaker 1: another journalist or a television crew, like they'll be camped
Speaker 1: out for days and like, but you don't see that part.
Speaker 1: Still for some reason, it feels less intrusive. But in fact,
Speaker 1: like I hardly I didn't make any contact with him
Speaker 1: hard I talked to his manager a couple of times.
Speaker 1: Like it was just on the peripheries. If you had
Speaker 1: to do it over again, would you do anything differently?
Speaker 1: Um No, I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes. I
Speaker 1: think I did make mistakes, although most of the mistakes
Speaker 1: people people probably didn't pick up on. Like if um,
Speaker 1: I'm really proud of it. Um, I'm really proud of it.
Speaker 1: You can be proud of it, but also maybe think
Speaker 1: regret a few things in it. Um, I wish I
Speaker 1: was more prepared to understand that if people started listening
Speaker 1: to that would change it, that that would change that,
Speaker 1: that would change what was happening. Like the first I
Speaker 1: think what happened is that people were really on board
Speaker 1: and they were like, oh my gosh, Richard Simms is amazing.
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's exaggerating to say that I
Speaker 1: did remind people that Richard Sims is amazing, and I
Speaker 1: do think he has really become one dimensional in the
Speaker 1: past ten twenty years, and that part of the fun
Speaker 1: of this was just saying you don't understand, like he's
Speaker 1: this businessman and he's helping all these people and all
Speaker 1: these dimensions. Part of it was really like any biography
Speaker 1: in a way. Yeah, But once people realized that it
Speaker 1: wasn't just the guy that Letterman was making fun of
Speaker 1: in short shorts, then people were like, Richard's amazing, and
Speaker 1: they're like, wait a minute, leave rich Or alone. So
Speaker 1: I kind of put myself into a trap again that
Speaker 1: we weren't doing anything that was actually there was nothing
Speaker 1: in truth about what we were doing. But I think
Speaker 1: that more people got to know Richard, the more they
Speaker 1: felt like they knew him. That got into your head, though,
Speaker 1: But the fact that you were doing this in real
Speaker 1: time sort of some of the backlash again into the show.
Speaker 1: How did it influence sort of the latter episodes. The
Speaker 1: stress level went up, like way up, like intensely up
Speaker 1: for me. But that I do that to myself, um
Speaker 1: as as I think you know a lot of directors,
Speaker 1: producers or anybody would do describe how that felt when
Speaker 1: people started saying, hey, wait a minute. Um, it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not just that hey wait a minute is fine
Speaker 1: because they weren't. Nobody out there has asked anything that
Speaker 1: we haven't been asking ourselves for the past three years.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what that like. We went eyes
Speaker 1: wide open, like I have never worked on a project
Speaker 1: for this long, so considerately. Um. I don't mean as
Speaker 1: a complent. I just mean, like the sheer time and
Speaker 1: do deal, gents, we did to make sure that we
Speaker 1: were doing things away that we thought were was right. Um.
Speaker 1: So it's more about the criticism, a little bit of criticism,
Speaker 1: plus people really waiting for the next episode, plus people
Speaker 1: who know Richard wanting to know what's going on, plus
Speaker 1: knowing that Richard's out there and wondering what he's thinking,
Speaker 1: plus just sheer time, Like you start to run out
Speaker 1: of time. UM. So all that sort of coalesces into
Speaker 1: nothing new, nothing that I'm sure you or a million
Speaker 1: other people haven't experienced times ten. But you know, for me,
Speaker 1: this time it was me. So it's serious and it
Speaker 1: was a new phenomenon for you. Yeah, I had never
Speaker 1: had you know, I had I had a kids show
Speaker 1: like uh five years ago in Cartoon Network that was
Speaker 1: a really big hit, but it was a big hit
Speaker 1: with kids, and so like nobody knew what I was doing,
Speaker 1: Like if a twelve year old came up to me,
Speaker 1: I was the rock star, but it was really under
Speaker 1: the radar with adults. UM. And there was something really
Speaker 1: um pressureless about that UM. But this was the first
Speaker 1: time where I did something you know that I was
Speaker 1: at the center of that um that became really um
Speaker 1: intense like that and so quickly and so surprisingly. I
Speaker 1: wanna play a clip from the podcast. Here is what
Speaker 1: you told your producer Henry at the start of the project.
Speaker 1: If he said to you, like, why are you doing this?
Speaker 1: What would you say? In my perfect world of worlds,
Speaker 1: this gesture would be the entire world and all the
Speaker 1: people around him telling Richard Simmons that he should love
Speaker 1: himself and to the point where he would believe it.
Speaker 1: I know that's impossible, but it'd be great. Go ahead.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I thought that was more. Never my good.
Speaker 1: I just oh my god. I just put my finger
Speaker 1: up to Kati. Correctly, Katie hold on saying great. Many
Speaker 1: people have said that the grand gesture this podcast in
Speaker 1: your Search for Richard Simmons Dan wasn't all that grand.
Speaker 1: That at best it was sweet, but at worst intrusive
Speaker 1: and perhaps even self serving. Let me read to you
Speaker 1: what a critic in The New York Times said. I
Speaker 1: just say, I've never read this. People told me about.
Speaker 1: Oh please read it, but people told me about anyway.
Speaker 1: I just have one line from this article. The writer
Speaker 1: said it was morally suspect, and added is what friends do,
Speaker 1: turn their loved ones personal crisis into a fun mystery
Speaker 1: investigation and record it for a hit podcast. The hit
Speaker 1: podcast part that I love that. I love that it's
Speaker 1: assumed that I just knew this was going to be
Speaker 1: a hit, like for me. I for me, it feels
Speaker 1: like I tricked people into giving me money to make
Speaker 1: this project about somebody that I think is really great,
Speaker 1: and I it never of course I wanted it to
Speaker 1: be a big thing, but I didn't realize that it
Speaker 1: would be. The flip side of that is, I really
Speaker 1: do think that there's a real question of like, when
Speaker 1: are you supposed to start asking these questions about people
Speaker 1: that you think are great and that are important and
Speaker 1: you think might be in trouble. I mean, are we
Speaker 1: supposed to wait? Like this might sound grim? Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: are we supposed to wait till you know, in twenty years,
Speaker 1: like Richard Simmons is dead, and then you know, and
Speaker 1: then he lived the last twenty years of his life
Speaker 1: in solitude, and there's all these questions about it, and
Speaker 1: then you know, people just line up like planes landing
Speaker 1: into l a X trying to get on MSNBC to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Um and for some and for some reason,
Speaker 1: that would be the sad thing to do for me.
Speaker 1: But with all due respect, is that really your job?
Speaker 1: I mean, who made you the guy who should be
Speaker 1: responsible for tracking down Richard Simmons when maybe he just
Speaker 1: wants to be left alone. I would think that, you know,
Speaker 1: I think anybody who sort of endeavors in a project
Speaker 1: like this, there's some sort of you have to decide
Speaker 1: that this is a story worth telling. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: I also think that, um, there were real questions, and
Speaker 1: because I knew him, UM, it made me feel like
Speaker 1: I was in a position to ask these questions, whereas
Speaker 1: other people maybe couldn't. UM. Do you think you know,
Speaker 1: when you say that, people might think, well, he was
Speaker 1: really taking advantage of this friendship. Uh, they might that
Speaker 1: that would be a shame. UM, but I certainly hope
Speaker 1: they wouldn't. I mean, I do think it's worth reminding
Speaker 1: people and myself that there were real questions up to
Speaker 1: six weeks ago about what was going on with Richard Simmons.
Speaker 1: And that's not a joke, that's not hyperbole, that's not
Speaker 1: you know, making something out of nothing. That to me,
Speaker 1: knowing many many people, almost anybody I knew who knew
Speaker 1: Richard Simmons from that class and knew him for years,
Speaker 1: thought that something was wrong. And everybody, every one of
Speaker 1: those people, including me, recognized that what they felt and
Speaker 1: what they knew about Richard and what his management and
Speaker 1: his publicists were saying did not match up. They were saying,
Speaker 1: he just retired, He's fine, That's not what happened. And
Speaker 1: so it created this like there was just this gap
Speaker 1: between what the people who were around him were saying
Speaker 1: versus what the people who knew him were feeling. And
Speaker 1: I think in in in large part, we're correct at.
Speaker 1: On top of that, one of the one of the
Speaker 1: closest people to Richard before he disappeared, who I got
Speaker 1: to know through Richard, who Richard told me to trust,
Speaker 1: was telling me that something's going on here, that this
Speaker 1: is not good, that this is scary, and here the reasons.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't. This isn't. There's a part of it
Speaker 1: where we treat it really light and have fun with it,
Speaker 1: just like Richard will cry one second and laugh the next,
Speaker 1: Like I love that sort of thing. But there's another
Speaker 1: part of this where people were concerned and it bared investigating.
Speaker 1: How did you reach out to some of the other
Speaker 1: people who you feature in the podcast. The woman who
Speaker 1: Richard drove to exercise class, who is how old again?
Speaker 1: She's naughty five. She just had a ninety fifth birthday.
Speaker 1: My name is Jerry, Jerry Sinclair. Other friends call Gi
Speaker 1: yeah and and and she was so sweet and really
Speaker 1: darling in this podcast. Not many people have a fourty
Speaker 1: year relationship with their exercise instructor. Well, these easy love
Speaker 1: and I do I did become like a second mother.
Speaker 1: How did you convince her? I mean was she reticent? No,
Speaker 1: she wasn't reticent. The people around her were reticent. UM.
Speaker 1: And I think the fact that I had been taking
Speaker 1: the class and that I was a familiar face to
Speaker 1: a lot of these people, UM, and that I wasn't
Speaker 1: an outsider coming in trying to do a story and
Speaker 1: Richard Simmons, I was kind of coming from within and saying, Hey,
Speaker 1: what's going on, guys and sort of hearing what everybody
Speaker 1: was saying, really not understanding what was happening. Um. And
Speaker 1: I think there was a familiarity that UM that allowed
Speaker 1: me to talk to people. It just it made them
Speaker 1: open up a little bit more. But it was still
Speaker 1: not an easy road to ho like, people are still
Speaker 1: really protective of Richard, and people are afraid to you know,
Speaker 1: they don't want to say something that's going to be misconstrued.
Speaker 1: And so did anyone call you after you interviewed them
Speaker 1: and say I don't really feel comfortable do you mind
Speaker 1: not including that? Were you hoping that this would end
Speaker 1: with Richard being an interview with you and telling you
Speaker 1: where he'd been, what he'd been doing and what had happened, um,
Speaker 1: and the best of all possible worlds. Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: best of all possible worlds. Um. A big part of
Speaker 1: what I was hoping for was that he would feel
Speaker 1: that that he would that he would feel that a
Speaker 1: lot of people think and felt that he was isolated
Speaker 1: and alone in a way that wasn't healthy for him
Speaker 1: or for others, and that he would tell the same
Speaker 1: to them when he was there, like it's it's a
Speaker 1: big part of obesity. Is like when we talked about
Speaker 1: in the podcast, is is you isolate yourself, um, and
Speaker 1: it's unhealthy and you have to find people you trust.
Speaker 1: And I you know, Misca supposedly is at his fighting weight.
Speaker 1: Detective Becker tells me that, Yeah, it was just great,
Speaker 1: It's amazing. Um. But what I was hoping was that
Speaker 1: if he wasn't in a good way, that he would
Speaker 1: feel that that love and he would feel that understanding
Speaker 1: and people respecting the impact he's made on them, and
Speaker 1: that would have an impact. I'm sure. So in a way,
Speaker 1: you tried to deliver a love letter, not a voyeuristic
Speaker 1: invasion of privacy. No, I mean I would try to
Speaker 1: do a love letter. I also tried to tell a
Speaker 1: really compelling story. UM. I also tried to tell the
Speaker 1: story of you know, the story of Richard Simmons is
Speaker 1: an incredible one that people forgot absolutely. I will say
Speaker 1: in terms of voyers UM. I don't mean this to
Speaker 1: sound coy, but there's a ton of stuff that we
Speaker 1: didn't put in there, like stuff that people that he
Speaker 1: would never want anybody talking about. Um. And and so
Speaker 1: it wasn't about digging up dirt and putting it out
Speaker 1: there like I I we that's not what this was
Speaker 1: at all. Like if if we wanted to do voyeuristic,
Speaker 1: that would have been super easy, and that's not I
Speaker 1: hope that's not what we did. Well. It's interesting because
Speaker 1: some of the things that you anticipated would be included
Speaker 1: in the sixth episode, uh, they weren't. And you explain
Speaker 1: at the beginning that if people were wondering what was
Speaker 1: left out, it included a boom box and a letter.
Speaker 1: You're gills at gift wrapping and you being way too
Speaker 1: deep into the story, and you say to the listeners,
Speaker 1: if you ever wonder what what happened and what we
Speaker 1: kept out, asked me, and I'll tell you so Dan,
Speaker 1: why did you take things out? What were they? They were? Um?
Speaker 1: And I do think that's definitely part of the um
Speaker 1: challenge of doing something in real time, like you know,
Speaker 1: episode five comes out and you're not quite sure what
Speaker 1: episodes ticks is going to be because it's happening, like
Speaker 1: the phone's ringing and people are giving you information that
Speaker 1: you feel like it's important. And um. There were two
Speaker 1: things that we were going to put in there. UM.
Speaker 1: There was one where UM, where I wanted to make
Speaker 1: sure that Richard was hearing the podcast because that was
Speaker 1: a big part of this. And literally, like sometimes I
Speaker 1: think about Richard Simmons like my grandmother, like I'm not
Speaker 1: quite sure if he knows how the internet works type thing. Um.
Speaker 1: And so it was literally just putting what we had
Speaker 1: done into a boom box and putting on his front
Speaker 1: on a stoop. I guess if you can call a mansion.
Speaker 1: I don't know if a mansion has a stoop, um,
Speaker 1: but from steps, yeah, exactly, uh and to uh and
Speaker 1: to get his reaction and so that we would know
Speaker 1: that he would had heard it. The other thing that
Speaker 1: was in there UM was something about to the entilator
Speaker 1: characters Morrow and Teresa. UM and basically, gosh, how do
Speaker 1: I say this without um, without telling you, because the
Speaker 1: whole point of not putting in there was to not
Speaker 1: tell people. UM. I think yeah, the reasoning was it
Speaker 1: was it was UM. It turned out to be. My
Speaker 1: my sense is that what we were going to put
Speaker 1: in there in wretched after talking to people, because after
Speaker 1: the podcast came out, a lot more people started talking
Speaker 1: to us, UM, a lot more people who were close
Speaker 1: to Richard. We're giving us there two cents in a
Speaker 1: really good way. UM. And we kind of realized that
Speaker 1: the stuff that we thought was important uh and pertain
Speaker 1: to Richard, it was less about Richard and it was
Speaker 1: more about Morrow and Teresa. UH. And so it was
Speaker 1: drama and it was good tape. UM. But in the end,
Speaker 1: the story that we really wanted to tell was the
Speaker 1: story about Richard. And as we got closer to the end,
Speaker 1: we realized, you know what, that's just not it's just
Speaker 1: bringing up stuff that doesn't affect Richard at all. I
Speaker 1: think it's just about them. I will say that we
Speaker 1: were over I think there's lesson learned in terms of
Speaker 1: being over zealous with a tease. Don't tease what you
Speaker 1: can't deliver, Dan, I know I under promise and over deliver,
Speaker 1: I know for sure. Well I have to ask you though,
Speaker 1: I have to ask you about the boom box. Can
Speaker 1: you tell me it? Oh? What happened? Yeah? Yeah, what happened?
Speaker 1: I know you put it there, but what happened? Okay?
Speaker 1: So did you hear the tease? Yeah? Okay, so yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So here's what happened. It's gonna sound really small, um,
Speaker 1: but it was kind of incredible. So what happened is
Speaker 1: we put it down. Um. It had four balloons on
Speaker 1: it and um, and it was a boom box with
Speaker 1: the podcast in it. And I put it his front
Speaker 1: door or over the fence. Um, which is super easy
Speaker 1: to do, um because it's right there in the street.
Speaker 1: And then we left and as we're driving away, we
Speaker 1: saw Trace, so the housekeeper come pick it up. So
Speaker 1: we're like, great, mission accomplished. He's gonna get it. And
Speaker 1: inside was a note saying we moved back tomorrow at
Speaker 1: nine o'clock. If you want to talk to me, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you're getting into my messages. I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's getting through through Trace. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's getting through your manager. If if we'll come
Speaker 1: back at out o'clock tomorrow and we'll wait ten minutes um.
Speaker 1: If um, if you come out, then then we'll be
Speaker 1: waiting for you. We could talk. If not, well this
Speaker 1: is it. That's it, we're done. Um. And he didn't
Speaker 1: come out. Um, and a bird shit on me and
Speaker 1: like I started raining. Yeah totally. Oh the gods were
Speaker 1: literally like enough to burs key. Um all really like
Speaker 1: benign stuff like just like so why not include that
Speaker 1: because it wasn't important. It seemed silly compared to what
Speaker 1: really happened. Is that ultimately the person that we got
Speaker 1: closer to Richard than we thought we would, which was
Speaker 1: a manager and who shut me down over and over
Speaker 1: and who and he's known Richard for thirty years. Um.
Speaker 1: And then he decided to talk to me and gave
Speaker 1: me a quiet, an extentive interview and said something really,
Speaker 1: I mean, he speaks for Richard in in every way.
Speaker 1: And he said some things that were really surprising and
Speaker 1: really moving, and it became, um, a more real story
Speaker 1: and a sadder story. Um that made the other stuff
Speaker 1: feel unimportant. Look, we all we all know that this
Speaker 1: is you know, a very emotional, um, empathetic, sympathetic, compassionate person.
Speaker 1: I think anybody that has those traits over a long
Speaker 1: period of time. Yeah, I think goodbyes are tough. Yeah,
Speaker 1: most people want you know, you know, want want to
Speaker 1: want that last bow. Not everybody. Are you worried that
Speaker 1: Richard is upset with you for doing this? And I
Speaker 1: guess he is, or you've gotten the vibe that he
Speaker 1: is or not. Um, I don't know, I mean haven't
Speaker 1: but no, but through his representatives and his avoidance of
Speaker 1: of you, you know, he's just not that into you, Dan.
Speaker 1: Apparently it makes me clear it's not hard to avoid
Speaker 1: somebody when they're not I mean, he is an isolated person.
Speaker 1: He is in his home, does not speak, he's not
Speaker 1: he's he's isolating himself. So it's not like we weren't
Speaker 1: throwing rocks at his window. It's just saying, Richard, come
Speaker 1: out like that is not anywhere. But obviously you reached
Speaker 1: out repeatedly to all his his representatives, and you know
Speaker 1: clearly he knew that that's what you ultimately wanted. Look,
Speaker 1: if anybody had, if anybody has a problem with me
Speaker 1: calling his publicist a couple too many times, like that
Speaker 1: is the least of our worries here, you know, But
Speaker 1: I mean he was clearly avoiding you. I guess is
Speaker 1: the bottom certain? And are you worried that he is
Speaker 1: going to be like Dan, get off my back, lead
Speaker 1: me alone? Why are you doing this? Why are you
Speaker 1: capitalizing on our relationship? I don't want I want to
Speaker 1: be alone. I don't want this kind of attention. I'm pissed.
Speaker 1: It's possible, for sure. I don't know. He hasn't told me.
Speaker 1: I think it's not so much what I did. I
Speaker 1: think it's the way other people reacted to it, and
Speaker 1: so the press that follows, so now you know, like
Speaker 1: I just saw People magazine. There's a picture of his
Speaker 1: housekeeper like taking out the recycling, like literally people camped out.
Speaker 1: Are you sorry that you kind of started that? I
Speaker 1: am sorry for any negatives because I don't. I really
Speaker 1: like him. I think he's really special and I know
Speaker 1: he's a really sensitive guy. And but am I do
Speaker 1: I am? I really proud of it? Yeah? And do?
Speaker 1: I think it's impacted a lot of people. And I
Speaker 1: think I think to remind people about empathy at a
Speaker 1: time when studies show that empathy is at an all
Speaker 1: time low. I'm sure at an all tie exactly, at
Speaker 1: an all time low. Like it's a real thing, and
Speaker 1: so to remind people of the specialness of that, like
Speaker 1: I'm really proud of that, and I think it's had
Speaker 1: an impact. Are you convinced that Richard is Okay? I'm
Speaker 1: as convinced as I can be. I mean, I do
Speaker 1: know that his his manager, and I do think his housekeeper,
Speaker 1: I do think they love him very much, and um
Speaker 1: and this is you know, and I think that the
Speaker 1: stories are aligning now, like what his what the people
Speaker 1: around him are saying, is matching up to reality now,
Speaker 1: whereas before it wasn't, and it was very scary for
Speaker 1: a lot of people. You can you just can't overstate
Speaker 1: the real concerns and valid concerns that all the people
Speaker 1: around Richard Simmons had, especially when someone does such a
Speaker 1: one eight right, not only do they do. It's not
Speaker 1: like George Clooney decided he was going to go to
Speaker 1: Lake Como, you know, and take a couple of years off.
Speaker 1: He was the most accessible celebrity on the planet. He
Speaker 1: would wait at his window and run outside multiple times
Speaker 1: a day and talk to people and tour vans driving
Speaker 1: by and take pictures them. He wouldn't invite them into
Speaker 1: his house and give him stuff. And so I'm not
Speaker 1: saying he because he was so accessible before that he
Speaker 1: that he doesn't deserve privacy now, but it absolutely means
Speaker 1: that to switch like that on a day, UM is
Speaker 1: concerning at the very least, Where do you go from here? Dan? Here,
Speaker 1: You've got this podcast that's creating really a huge amount
Speaker 1: of buzz, a lot of controversy. It's really prompting Richard
Speaker 1: to be on the cover of People magazine. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is probably much bigger than you ever anticipated. So
Speaker 1: what are your plans for the future? Um, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I literally just finished the first I mean, I have
Speaker 1: a couple of things that I'm cooking up, but I
Speaker 1: mean hopefully it'll be Um, can you tell us what
Speaker 1: you're cooking up? Give it, give us a little bit
Speaker 1: of an idea. Why not? Yeah, I'm working, Well, give
Speaker 1: me a scoop here, Dan, It's not it's gonna sound
Speaker 1: really boring compared to this one. I'm working on a
Speaker 1: documentary idea about the Minnesota State Fair, uh and all
Speaker 1: the different people that coalesced on this thing that started
Speaker 1: a fifty years ago as for you know, if you're
Speaker 1: a way for farmers to get together, and now it's
Speaker 1: literally a crossroads of of different cultures and issues in
Speaker 1: the state and larger issues and plus you know, like
Speaker 1: butter sculptures. I was going to say, a big sea
Speaker 1: of humanity and a lot of funnel cakes. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: want to come back like I'll need Richard more than
Speaker 1: a lot of corn dogs. That sounds interesting. That's a
Speaker 1: good sign for sure. Dan to Bersky, thank you for
Speaker 1: talking to me, and I think your listeners will be
Speaker 1: interested in hearing your views on all this because this
Speaker 1: is a little more unfiltered and it's really coming from
Speaker 1: your heart. Thank you. Thanks to Dan to Pursky, First
Speaker 1: Look Media, and Stitcher for making this possible. I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed going behind the scenes of this podcast, and a
Speaker 1: big thank you to my team at Erewolf and mid
Speaker 1: Roll as well. Thanks to Gianna Palmer for producing and
Speaker 1: to Gared O'Connell mixing and engineering. Thanks also to our
Speaker 1: social media may event we like that because it's alliterative,
Speaker 1: Alison Bresnik, and to Emily Beana for her part in
Speaker 1: producing this show. Also a big thank you to Chris
Speaker 1: Bannon and Mark Phillips. Thank you as always for our
Speaker 1: Ruthie theme music. Bryan Goldsmith, Mitch s Emil and I
Speaker 1: are executive producers of this podcast. And lastly, if you
Speaker 1: came here because you're missing Richard Simmons fan and you
Speaker 1: liked what you heard, you might like other episodes of
Speaker 1: our podcast. We hope so like the one where Alec
Speaker 1: Baldwin shared what it's like to perform as President Trump
Speaker 1: on SNL, or when Samantha b gave her take on
Speaker 1: being the only woman in Late Night. Recently, I got
Speaker 1: Tony Robbins explanation of how President Trump's leadership style compares
Speaker 1: to President Obama's. Interesting right, So if you like what
Speaker 1: you've heard, please subscribe to my podcast on iTunes just
Speaker 1: search Katie Couric. Very creative, I know,