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Speaker 1: If you're like me, you probably listened to, or perhaps

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Speaker 1: we're obsessed with the Missing Richard Simmons podcast. The host

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Speaker 1: and creator Dan to Birsky, spent a few years trying

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Speaker 1: to find out why Richard Simmons abruptly cut himself off

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Speaker 1: from his adoring fans and so many good friends he

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Speaker 1: made along the way. So over the course of this series,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking for Richard. I'm reaching out in any way

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Speaker 1: I can and exploring every theory. The goal isn't to

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Speaker 1: drag him back. It's to find out why someone like

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Speaker 1: him would ditch the world. This is Missing Richard Simmons.

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Speaker 1: Dan visited Richard's brother in New Orleans. He pretty much

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Speaker 1: talked to everyone who knew Richard at some point in

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Speaker 1: their lives. Richard Simmons hasn't been seen in public for

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Speaker 1: over three years. I was particularly interested in this podcast

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Speaker 1: because I had interviewed Richard several times in the past,

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Speaker 1: and I too was worried about him. And I have

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Speaker 1: to be honest, listening to this made me fall in

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Speaker 1: love with Richard Simmons all over again. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: the only one. This podcast has been a huge hit.

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Speaker 1: It was the number one most downloaded podcast on iTunes.

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Speaker 1: But now that the show was over all six episodes,

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Speaker 1: there are still a lot of questions. I guess the

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Speaker 1: primary one is why did Richard become a recluse? But

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Speaker 1: there are also people who are questioning Dan's decision to

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Speaker 1: make this podcast and the ethics of doing so. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the New York Times even called it quote unquote morally suspect.

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Speaker 1: So I sat down with Dan to talk about why

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Speaker 1: he wanted to do this, what his experience was like,

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Speaker 1: and his reaction to all the criticism. Dan to Bersky,

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Speaker 1: is so nice to see you. Dan. So how are

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Speaker 1: you feeling now that everything is done? I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: the wild ride you've been on. It was a wild

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Speaker 1: ride and it was, um it still is, I guess

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Um. I'm I am super pleased that

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Speaker 1: it's done, just because until it's done, you don't know

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Speaker 1: how it's going to turn out, quality wise, and I'm

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Speaker 1: super happy with how it turned out. Um, but it

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Speaker 1: was a lot. It was a lot of It started

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Speaker 1: out just like we watched a creep up the iTunes

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Speaker 1: start and then people your phone start ringing, and then

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Speaker 1: it is an avalanche. Uh, and it struck a chord,

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Speaker 1: which is so lovely. I'm super excited about that. So

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Speaker 1: it was a little overwhelming, And of course it's been controversial.

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Speaker 1: There's been a lot of criticism of the podcast, and

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about that later, but I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about this as a medium, if you will. You're a

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Speaker 1: documentary filmmaker. You did a film called These cock Sucking Tears,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to say that because I thought people

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Speaker 1: would enjoy hearing me say the title of your film.

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Speaker 1: I wanted And you also obviously worked in television a

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Speaker 1: producer at The Daily Show, So what made you decide

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Speaker 1: to do a podcast instead of a TV show. It

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Speaker 1: was an unusual story, and I was sort of following

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Speaker 1: it as it was happening, and I was doing it

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Speaker 1: as a documentary. I started shooting it as a documentary.

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Speaker 1: I was shooting video and I actually started on my iPhone.

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Speaker 1: I was literally like I had the whole rig and like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was doing it all myself. And I think part

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Speaker 1: of that is just like it needs to reach critical mass,

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Speaker 1: like you just got. You think it would have been

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Speaker 1: successful as a film. As a documentary, I'm really glad

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a documentary, because what happens to the documentary

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Speaker 1: is that you finished it and then there's like a

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Speaker 1: year until it comes out. I also think it would

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Speaker 1: have I think oddly just the audio. Just having audio

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Speaker 1: only is more intimate, even though you're missing a sense.

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Speaker 1: But I actually think having the visuals as well might

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Speaker 1: have made it fee you a little more invasive and

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Speaker 1: not in a good way. Like it's just and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are uncomfortable with their bodies that I'm

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Speaker 1: talking to, and you know, it just adds another element

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Speaker 1: of do I really want to pour my heart out

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Speaker 1: to you? And were you influenced by any other podcasts?

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Speaker 1: For example? Were you a big fan of Sereal? Is

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Speaker 1: that one of the things that made you gravitate towards this? Um?

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Speaker 1: I was influenced by serial and just that I really

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Speaker 1: liked it. UM. I will say I don't have a

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Speaker 1: particular love of like mystery, like I don't love true crime.

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Speaker 1: That was a big part of this, not true crime,

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Speaker 1: but the mystery element. Yeah, and and part of but

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Speaker 1: also part of that was me figuring out how to

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Speaker 1: do that part and sometimes in the podcast with my

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Speaker 1: producer Henry, like, I don't know if it comes through

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Speaker 1: in the podcast. But sometimes you know, and especially the

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Speaker 1: people at pine Stream Media, they were pushing me to

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Speaker 1: do things due diligence. You have to do the basics.

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Speaker 1: You have to reach out this way and that way,

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Speaker 1: and those are the things that made me uncomfortable, but

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Speaker 1: that still needed to be done. Like the sort of

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Speaker 1: mystery solving parts were not my favorite part. The favorite

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Speaker 1: parts we're talking about Richard and the impact he had.

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Speaker 1: What kinds of things do they make you do that

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Speaker 1: made you uncomfortable, Katy? I mean you opened that door, Dan, No,

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Speaker 1: not anything I'm uncomfortable to. You know, this sounds absurd,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes I'm just uncomfortable to talk to people. And

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Speaker 1: so things like you know, just going and knocking on

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Speaker 1: Richard's door, like that was something I needed to do.

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Speaker 1: I needed to reach out to Richard and just do

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Speaker 1: the basics, like if he answered the door and he's like,

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Speaker 1: hey man, come on in, Like there goes a podcast.

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Speaker 1: But I needed to know those things. Let's peek behind

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Speaker 1: the curtains. Tell us how much traveling you did, the

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Speaker 1: reporting that you did before the episode started to air,

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Speaker 1: how this was done in real time? Can you just

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your process feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm interviewing Martin Scorsese. Somehow I appreciate the comparison. I

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Speaker 1: don't get carried away totally the other way. No, I

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Speaker 1: didn't mean that, but I just, you know, I want

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Speaker 1: you to get too big for your bridges. As my

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Speaker 1: mom would say, it will not happen. My bridges are

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Speaker 1: just fine. The process was, um, it was a long one.

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Speaker 1: I mean I had originally met Richard in two thousand twelve,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to do a documentary on him from

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Speaker 1: the beginning. Uh, And so that was our process of

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Speaker 1: getting to know each other was you know, we were

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Speaker 1: getting to know each other, but there was also you know,

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Speaker 1: there was another level of like do I trust you

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Speaker 1: to tell my story? So that started in two thousand twelve.

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Speaker 1: He disappeared in two thousand thirteen, and then about a

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Speaker 1: year later, I kind of realized that everybody was sort

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Speaker 1: of wondering what is going on? And there were no

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Speaker 1: easy answers, and a lot of people were really worried, um,

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Speaker 1: sincerely worried. Um. What did he say when you approached

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Speaker 1: him about a documentary? He said no? Wink, he said,

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Speaker 1: he said no. And then but he said it with

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Speaker 1: a smile, and we kept talking and I that was

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Speaker 1: the first day I took his class, and I said,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'll just keep going to class. And so

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Speaker 1: I did you bring it up again? Uh? Not for

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Speaker 1: a while. Um. And then maybe six months later I

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Speaker 1: kind of raised it again and then what did he say?

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Speaker 1: He said, I don't remember exactly what I said, but

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Speaker 1: it was like a slow process of he sort of

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Speaker 1: invited me to come to behind the scenes of one

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Speaker 1: of the tapings of his videos. Um. And then he

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Speaker 1: sort of invited me to lunch where we could talk

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Speaker 1: about it just that without like the class or anything

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Speaker 1: else distracting us. So you felt like you were making

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Speaker 1: some progress in achieving your goal of producing a documentary. Sure, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. And then no, uh, we we actually started

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Speaker 1: doing negotiating a deal um about which gets complicated about

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Speaker 1: life rights and stuff like that, and house it's gonna work. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then sort of an early fall of two thousand thirteen, Um,

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Speaker 1: he I moved back to New York, uh, and he

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Speaker 1: put it on hold. And then a couple months later

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Speaker 1: he had disappeared, but we were still in touch and

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Speaker 1: still talking. He just wasn't quite ready, um, but then

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Speaker 1: he the disappeared quite literally. But you really thought it

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Speaker 1: was all systems go, that the two of you were

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Speaker 1: going to make a documentary together. I thought, no, I

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Speaker 1: thought we had hit a we hit a pause button,

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Speaker 1: which is totally fine, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: were for sure like it was a we were doing it,

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Speaker 1: like you told people in the class, and like you

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Speaker 1: said it out loud and we talked. Yet for sure

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Speaker 1: it was happening. You also traveled extensively, went to New

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Speaker 1: Orleans and showed up outside his brother's house there you,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, went to Richard's house in l A.

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Speaker 1: How much traveling did you have to do for this?

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Speaker 1: I would say, I mean I went to we went

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Speaker 1: to New Orleans, and we went to Mississippi, and then

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Speaker 1: I went to l A about five or six times.

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Speaker 1: I mean I was out there, I would say for

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Speaker 1: four weeks altogether for this, which, gosh, I guess that's

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Speaker 1: a lot. You set boundaries for yourself, Dan, You did

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Speaker 1: you going into this say I won't do A, B

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Speaker 1: and C. Or did those boundaries evolve as the project

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Speaker 1: went on? The boundaries definitely did not evolve. Um, I

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Speaker 1: would say, I mean I don't consider myself a journalist.

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Speaker 1: I consider myself a documentarian, which are very similar rules,

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Speaker 1: but documentarians is a little more artful. You're trying, you're

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Speaker 1: you're allowed to be a little looser, not with the facts,

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Speaker 1: but with how you're expressing things. Um. But also the

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Speaker 1: easier rule was just like I consider him a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine, and what would you do to a friend

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Speaker 1: of yours? Like that became not pretending like I wasn't

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Speaker 1: out to get this guy. I wasn't out too upset him.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't out to expose anything. So just saying like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, like I'm not doing that. He's like,

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Speaker 1: I consider him my friend. He wouldn't want that, Like

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Speaker 1: that was kind of an easy line. So how did

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Speaker 1: you figure out which lines you wouldn't cross? Whichever one's

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Speaker 1: made me nauseous? It's a it's a I only I'm

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Speaker 1: only half kidding, Like if I really just don't feel right,

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Speaker 1: I'm just like I don't want to do that, Like

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Speaker 1: I have to decide if it's um, if it's just nerves,

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Speaker 1: or if it's really like now, there's something wrong with that.

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Speaker 1: Like in the past three years, I've been outside of

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Speaker 1: Richard's house maybe a total ten minutes, like you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, Like a lot of the things that

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Speaker 1: people think, oh, you crossed boundaries, Like in fact, people

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Speaker 1: just think we cross boundary because we're showing them what

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Speaker 1: we were doing, like we were quite honest. Like I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go knock on the door now, because that's basic.

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Speaker 1: You gotta do it if you're looking for somebody whereas

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Speaker 1: another journalist or a television crew, like they'll be camped

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Speaker 1: out for days and like, but you don't see that part.

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Speaker 1: Still for some reason, it feels less intrusive. But in fact,

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Speaker 1: like I hardly I didn't make any contact with him

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Speaker 1: hard I talked to his manager a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: Like it was just on the peripheries. If you had

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Speaker 1: to do it over again, would you do anything differently?

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Speaker 1: Um No, I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes. I

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Speaker 1: think I did make mistakes, although most of the mistakes

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Speaker 1: people people probably didn't pick up on. Like if um,

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Speaker 1: I'm really proud of it. Um, I'm really proud of it.

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Speaker 1: You can be proud of it, but also maybe think

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Speaker 1: regret a few things in it. Um, I wish I

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Speaker 1: was more prepared to understand that if people started listening

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Speaker 1: to that would change it, that that would change that,

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Speaker 1: that would change what was happening. Like the first I

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Speaker 1: think what happened is that people were really on board

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Speaker 1: and they were like, oh my gosh, Richard Simms is amazing.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think it's exaggerating to say that I

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Speaker 1: did remind people that Richard Sims is amazing, and I

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Speaker 1: do think he has really become one dimensional in the

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Speaker 1: past ten twenty years, and that part of the fun

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Speaker 1: of this was just saying you don't understand, like he's

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Speaker 1: this businessman and he's helping all these people and all

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Speaker 1: these dimensions. Part of it was really like any biography

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Speaker 1: in a way. Yeah, But once people realized that it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just the guy that Letterman was making fun of

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Speaker 1: in short shorts, then people were like, Richard's amazing, and

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Speaker 1: they're like, wait a minute, leave rich Or alone. So

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Speaker 1: I kind of put myself into a trap again that

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Speaker 1: we weren't doing anything that was actually there was nothing

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Speaker 1: in truth about what we were doing. But I think

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Speaker 1: that more people got to know Richard, the more they

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Speaker 1: felt like they knew him. That got into your head, though,

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Speaker 1: But the fact that you were doing this in real

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Speaker 1: time sort of some of the backlash again into the show.

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Speaker 1: How did it influence sort of the latter episodes. The

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Speaker 1: stress level went up, like way up, like intensely up

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Speaker 1: for me. But that I do that to myself, um

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Speaker 1: as as I think you know a lot of directors,

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Speaker 1: producers or anybody would do describe how that felt when

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Speaker 1: people started saying, hey, wait a minute. Um, it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's not just that hey wait a minute is fine

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Speaker 1: because they weren't. Nobody out there has asked anything that

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Speaker 1: we haven't been asking ourselves for the past three years.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what that like. We went eyes

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Speaker 1: wide open, like I have never worked on a project

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Speaker 1: for this long, so considerately. Um. I don't mean as

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Speaker 1: a complent. I just mean, like the sheer time and

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Speaker 1: do deal, gents, we did to make sure that we

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Speaker 1: were doing things away that we thought were was right. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it's more about the criticism, a little bit of criticism,

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Speaker 1: plus people really waiting for the next episode, plus people

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Speaker 1: who know Richard wanting to know what's going on, plus

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Speaker 1: knowing that Richard's out there and wondering what he's thinking,

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Speaker 1: plus just sheer time, Like you start to run out

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Speaker 1: of time. UM. So all that sort of coalesces into

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Speaker 1: nothing new, nothing that I'm sure you or a million

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Speaker 1: other people haven't experienced times ten. But you know, for me,

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Speaker 1: this time it was me. So it's serious and it

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Speaker 1: was a new phenomenon for you. Yeah, I had never

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Speaker 1: had you know, I had I had a kids show

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Speaker 1: like uh five years ago in Cartoon Network that was

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Speaker 1: a really big hit, but it was a big hit

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Speaker 1: with kids, and so like nobody knew what I was doing,

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Speaker 1: Like if a twelve year old came up to me,

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Speaker 1: I was the rock star, but it was really under

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Speaker 1: the radar with adults. UM. And there was something really

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Speaker 1: um pressureless about that UM. But this was the first

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Speaker 1: time where I did something you know that I was

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Speaker 1: at the center of that um that became really um

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Speaker 1: intense like that and so quickly and so surprisingly. I

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Speaker 1: wanna play a clip from the podcast. Here is what

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Speaker 1: you told your producer Henry at the start of the project.

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Speaker 1: If he said to you, like, why are you doing this?

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Speaker 1: What would you say? In my perfect world of worlds,

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Speaker 1: this gesture would be the entire world and all the

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Speaker 1: people around him telling Richard Simmons that he should love

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Speaker 1: himself and to the point where he would believe it.

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Speaker 1: I know that's impossible, but it'd be great. Go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I thought that was more. Never my good.

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Speaker 1: I just oh my god. I just put my finger

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Speaker 1: up to Kati. Correctly, Katie hold on saying great. Many

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Speaker 1: people have said that the grand gesture this podcast in

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Speaker 1: your Search for Richard Simmons Dan wasn't all that grand.

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Speaker 1: That at best it was sweet, but at worst intrusive

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Speaker 1: and perhaps even self serving. Let me read to you

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Speaker 1: what a critic in The New York Times said. I

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Speaker 1: just say, I've never read this. People told me about.

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Speaker 1: Oh please read it, but people told me about anyway.

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Speaker 1: I just have one line from this article. The writer

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Speaker 1: said it was morally suspect, and added is what friends do,

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Speaker 1: turn their loved ones personal crisis into a fun mystery

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Speaker 1: investigation and record it for a hit podcast. The hit

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Speaker 1: podcast part that I love that. I love that it's

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Speaker 1: assumed that I just knew this was going to be

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Speaker 1: a hit, like for me. I for me, it feels

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Speaker 1: like I tricked people into giving me money to make

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Speaker 1: this project about somebody that I think is really great,

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Speaker 1: and I it never of course I wanted it to

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Speaker 1: be a big thing, but I didn't realize that it

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Speaker 1: would be. The flip side of that is, I really

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Speaker 1: do think that there's a real question of like, when

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Speaker 1: are you supposed to start asking these questions about people

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Speaker 1: that you think are great and that are important and

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Speaker 1: you think might be in trouble. I mean, are we

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Speaker 1: supposed to wait? Like this might sound grim? Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: are we supposed to wait till you know, in twenty years,

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Speaker 1: like Richard Simmons is dead, and then you know, and

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Speaker 1: then he lived the last twenty years of his life

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Speaker 1: in solitude, and there's all these questions about it, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, people just line up like planes landing

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Speaker 1: into l a X trying to get on MSNBC to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Um and for some and for some reason,

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Speaker 1: that would be the sad thing to do for me.

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Speaker 1: But with all due respect, is that really your job?

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Speaker 1: I mean, who made you the guy who should be

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Speaker 1: responsible for tracking down Richard Simmons when maybe he just

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Speaker 1: wants to be left alone. I would think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think anybody who sort of endeavors in a project

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Speaker 1: like this, there's some sort of you have to decide

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Speaker 1: that this is a story worth telling. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: I also think that, um, there were real questions, and

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Speaker 1: because I knew him, UM, it made me feel like

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Speaker 1: I was in a position to ask these questions, whereas

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Speaker 1: other people maybe couldn't. UM. Do you think you know,

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Speaker 1: when you say that, people might think, well, he was

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Speaker 1: really taking advantage of this friendship. Uh, they might that

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Speaker 1: that would be a shame. UM, but I certainly hope

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't. I mean, I do think it's worth reminding

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Speaker 1: people and myself that there were real questions up to

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Speaker 1: six weeks ago about what was going on with Richard Simmons.

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Speaker 1: And that's not a joke, that's not hyperbole, that's not

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Speaker 1: you know, making something out of nothing. That to me,

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Speaker 1: knowing many many people, almost anybody I knew who knew

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Speaker 1: Richard Simmons from that class and knew him for years,

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Speaker 1: thought that something was wrong. And everybody, every one of

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Speaker 1: those people, including me, recognized that what they felt and

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Speaker 1: what they knew about Richard and what his management and

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Speaker 1: his publicists were saying did not match up. They were saying,

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Speaker 1: he just retired, He's fine, That's not what happened. And

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Speaker 1: so it created this like there was just this gap

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Speaker 1: between what the people who were around him were saying

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Speaker 1: versus what the people who knew him were feeling. And

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Speaker 1: I think in in in large part, we're correct at.

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Speaker 1: On top of that, one of the one of the

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Speaker 1: closest people to Richard before he disappeared, who I got

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Speaker 1: to know through Richard, who Richard told me to trust,

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Speaker 1: was telling me that something's going on here, that this

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Speaker 1: is not good, that this is scary, and here the reasons.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't. This isn't. There's a part of it

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Speaker 1: where we treat it really light and have fun with it,

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Speaker 1: just like Richard will cry one second and laugh the next,

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Speaker 1: Like I love that sort of thing. But there's another

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Speaker 1: part of this where people were concerned and it bared investigating.

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Speaker 1: How did you reach out to some of the other

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Speaker 1: people who you feature in the podcast. The woman who

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Speaker 1: Richard drove to exercise class, who is how old again?

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Speaker 1: She's naughty five. She just had a ninety fifth birthday.

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Speaker 1: My name is Jerry, Jerry Sinclair. Other friends call Gi

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Speaker 1: yeah and and and she was so sweet and really

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Speaker 1: darling in this podcast. Not many people have a fourty

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Speaker 1: year relationship with their exercise instructor. Well, these easy love

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Speaker 1: and I do I did become like a second mother.

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Speaker 1: How did you convince her? I mean was she reticent? No,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't reticent. The people around her were reticent. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I think the fact that I had been taking

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Speaker 1: the class and that I was a familiar face to

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Speaker 1: a lot of these people, UM, and that I wasn't

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Speaker 1: an outsider coming in trying to do a story and

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Speaker 1: Richard Simmons, I was kind of coming from within and saying, Hey,

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Speaker 1: what's going on, guys and sort of hearing what everybody

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Speaker 1: was saying, really not understanding what was happening. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I think there was a familiarity that UM that allowed

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Speaker 1: me to talk to people. It just it made them

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Speaker 1: open up a little bit more. But it was still

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Speaker 1: not an easy road to ho like, people are still

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Speaker 1: really protective of Richard, and people are afraid to you know,

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Speaker 1: they don't want to say something that's going to be misconstrued.

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Speaker 1: And so did anyone call you after you interviewed them

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Speaker 1: and say I don't really feel comfortable do you mind

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Speaker 1: not including that? Were you hoping that this would end

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Speaker 1: with Richard being an interview with you and telling you

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Speaker 1: where he'd been, what he'd been doing and what had happened, um,

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Speaker 1: and the best of all possible worlds. Yeah, and the

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Speaker 1: best of all possible worlds. Um. A big part of

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Speaker 1: what I was hoping for was that he would feel

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Speaker 1: that that he would that he would feel that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people think and felt that he was isolated

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Speaker 1: and alone in a way that wasn't healthy for him

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Speaker 1: or for others, and that he would tell the same

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Speaker 1: to them when he was there, like it's it's a

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Speaker 1: big part of obesity. Is like when we talked about

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Speaker 1: in the podcast, is is you isolate yourself, um, and

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Speaker 1: it's unhealthy and you have to find people you trust.

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Speaker 1: And I you know, Misca supposedly is at his fighting weight.

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Speaker 1: Detective Becker tells me that, Yeah, it was just great,

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Um. But what I was hoping was that

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Speaker 1: if he wasn't in a good way, that he would

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Speaker 1: feel that that love and he would feel that understanding

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Speaker 1: and people respecting the impact he's made on them, and

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Speaker 1: that would have an impact. I'm sure. So in a way,

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Speaker 1: you tried to deliver a love letter, not a voyeuristic

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Speaker 1: invasion of privacy. No, I mean I would try to

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Speaker 1: do a love letter. I also tried to tell a

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Speaker 1: really compelling story. UM. I also tried to tell the

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Speaker 1: story of you know, the story of Richard Simmons is

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Speaker 1: an incredible one that people forgot absolutely. I will say

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Speaker 1: in terms of voyers UM. I don't mean this to

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Speaker 1: sound coy, but there's a ton of stuff that we

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Speaker 1: didn't put in there, like stuff that people that he

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Speaker 1: would never want anybody talking about. Um. And and so

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Speaker 1: it wasn't about digging up dirt and putting it out

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Speaker 1: there like I I we that's not what this was

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Speaker 1: at all. Like if if we wanted to do voyeuristic,

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Speaker 1: that would have been super easy, and that's not I

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Speaker 1: hope that's not what we did. Well. It's interesting because

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Speaker 1: some of the things that you anticipated would be included

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Speaker 1: in the sixth episode, uh, they weren't. And you explain

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Speaker 1: at the beginning that if people were wondering what was

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Speaker 1: left out, it included a boom box and a letter.

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Speaker 1: You're gills at gift wrapping and you being way too

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Speaker 1: deep into the story, and you say to the listeners,

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Speaker 1: if you ever wonder what what happened and what we

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Speaker 1: kept out, asked me, and I'll tell you so Dan,

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Speaker 1: why did you take things out? What were they? They were? Um?

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Speaker 1: And I do think that's definitely part of the um

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Speaker 1: challenge of doing something in real time, like you know,

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Speaker 1: episode five comes out and you're not quite sure what

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Speaker 1: episodes ticks is going to be because it's happening, like

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Speaker 1: the phone's ringing and people are giving you information that

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Speaker 1: you feel like it's important. And um. There were two

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Speaker 1: things that we were going to put in there. UM.

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00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: There was one where UM, where I wanted to make

430
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: sure that Richard was hearing the podcast because that was

431
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: a big part of this. And literally, like sometimes I

432
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: think about Richard Simmons like my grandmother, like I'm not

433
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: quite sure if he knows how the internet works type thing. Um.

434
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: And so it was literally just putting what we had

435
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: done into a boom box and putting on his front

436
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: on a stoop. I guess if you can call a mansion.

437
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if a mansion has a stoop, um,

438
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: but from steps, yeah, exactly, uh and to uh and

439
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: to get his reaction and so that we would know

440
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: that he would had heard it. The other thing that

441
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: was in there UM was something about to the entilator

442
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: characters Morrow and Teresa. UM and basically, gosh, how do

443
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: I say this without um, without telling you, because the

444
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: whole point of not putting in there was to not

445
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 1: tell people. UM. I think yeah, the reasoning was it

446
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: was it was UM. It turned out to be. My

447
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: my sense is that what we were going to put

448
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 1: in there in wretched after talking to people, because after

449
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: the podcast came out, a lot more people started talking

450
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: to us, UM, a lot more people who were close

451
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: to Richard. We're giving us there two cents in a

452
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: really good way. UM. And we kind of realized that

453
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: the stuff that we thought was important uh and pertain

454
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: to Richard, it was less about Richard and it was

455
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: more about Morrow and Teresa. UH. And so it was

456
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: drama and it was good tape. UM. But in the end,

457
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: the story that we really wanted to tell was the

458
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,479
Speaker 1: story about Richard. And as we got closer to the end,

459
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: we realized, you know what, that's just not it's just

460
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: bringing up stuff that doesn't affect Richard at all. I

461
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: think it's just about them. I will say that we

462
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: were over I think there's lesson learned in terms of

463
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: being over zealous with a tease. Don't tease what you

464
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: can't deliver, Dan, I know I under promise and over deliver,

465
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: I know for sure. Well I have to ask you though,

466
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: I have to ask you about the boom box. Can

467
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: you tell me it? Oh? What happened? Yeah? Yeah, what happened?

468
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: I know you put it there, but what happened? Okay?

469
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: So did you hear the tease? Yeah? Okay, so yeah, yeah, okay,

470
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: So here's what happened. It's gonna sound really small, um,

471
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: but it was kind of incredible. So what happened is

472
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 1: we put it down. Um. It had four balloons on

473
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,479
Speaker 1: it and um, and it was a boom box with

474
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: the podcast in it. And I put it his front

475
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: door or over the fence. Um, which is super easy

476
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: to do, um because it's right there in the street.

477
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: And then we left and as we're driving away, we

478
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: saw Trace, so the housekeeper come pick it up. So

479
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: we're like, great, mission accomplished. He's gonna get it. And

480
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: inside was a note saying we moved back tomorrow at

481
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: nine o'clock. If you want to talk to me, I

482
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: don't know if you're getting into my messages. I don't

483
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: know if it's getting through through Trace. I don't know

484
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: if it's getting through your manager. If if we'll come

485
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: back at out o'clock tomorrow and we'll wait ten minutes um.

486
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: If um, if you come out, then then we'll be

487
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: waiting for you. We could talk. If not, well this

488
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: is it. That's it, we're done. Um. And he didn't

489
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: come out. Um, and a bird shit on me and

490
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: like I started raining. Yeah totally. Oh the gods were

491
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: literally like enough to burs key. Um all really like

492
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: benign stuff like just like so why not include that

493
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: because it wasn't important. It seemed silly compared to what

494
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: really happened. Is that ultimately the person that we got

495
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: closer to Richard than we thought we would, which was

496
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: a manager and who shut me down over and over

497
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: and who and he's known Richard for thirty years. Um.

498
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: And then he decided to talk to me and gave

499
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: me a quiet, an extentive interview and said something really,

500
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: I mean, he speaks for Richard in in every way.

501
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: And he said some things that were really surprising and

502
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: really moving, and it became, um, a more real story

503
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: and a sadder story. Um that made the other stuff

504
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: feel unimportant. Look, we all we all know that this

505
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: is you know, a very emotional, um, empathetic, sympathetic, compassionate person.

506
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: I think anybody that has those traits over a long

507
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: period of time. Yeah, I think goodbyes are tough. Yeah,

508
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: most people want you know, you know, want want to

509
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: want that last bow. Not everybody. Are you worried that

510
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: Richard is upset with you for doing this? And I

511
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: guess he is, or you've gotten the vibe that he

512
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: is or not. Um, I don't know, I mean haven't

513
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: but no, but through his representatives and his avoidance of

514
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: of you, you know, he's just not that into you, Dan.

515
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: Apparently it makes me clear it's not hard to avoid

516
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: somebody when they're not I mean, he is an isolated person.

517
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: He is in his home, does not speak, he's not

518
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: he's he's isolating himself. So it's not like we weren't

519
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: throwing rocks at his window. It's just saying, Richard, come

520
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: out like that is not anywhere. But obviously you reached

521
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: out repeatedly to all his his representatives, and you know

522
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: clearly he knew that that's what you ultimately wanted. Look,

523
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: if anybody had, if anybody has a problem with me

524
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: calling his publicist a couple too many times, like that

525
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: is the least of our worries here, you know, But

526
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: I mean he was clearly avoiding you. I guess is

527
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: the bottom certain? And are you worried that he is

528
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: going to be like Dan, get off my back, lead

529
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: me alone? Why are you doing this? Why are you

530
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: capitalizing on our relationship? I don't want I want to

531
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: be alone. I don't want this kind of attention. I'm pissed.

532
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: It's possible, for sure. I don't know. He hasn't told me.

533
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: I think it's not so much what I did. I

534
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: think it's the way other people reacted to it, and

535
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: so the press that follows, so now you know, like

536
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: I just saw People magazine. There's a picture of his

537
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: housekeeper like taking out the recycling, like literally people camped out.

538
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: Are you sorry that you kind of started that? I

539
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: am sorry for any negatives because I don't. I really

540
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: like him. I think he's really special and I know

541
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: he's a really sensitive guy. And but am I do

542
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: I am? I really proud of it? Yeah? And do?

543
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 1: I think it's impacted a lot of people. And I

544
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: think I think to remind people about empathy at a

545
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: time when studies show that empathy is at an all

546
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: time low. I'm sure at an all tie exactly, at

547
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: an all time low. Like it's a real thing, and

548
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: so to remind people of the specialness of that, like

549
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm really proud of that, and I think it's had

550
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: an impact. Are you convinced that Richard is Okay? I'm

551
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: as convinced as I can be. I mean, I do

552
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: know that his his manager, and I do think his housekeeper,

553
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: I do think they love him very much, and um

554
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: and this is you know, and I think that the

555
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: stories are aligning now, like what his what the people

556
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: around him are saying, is matching up to reality now,

557
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: whereas before it wasn't, and it was very scary for

558
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people. You can you just can't overstate

559
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: the real concerns and valid concerns that all the people

560
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: around Richard Simmons had, especially when someone does such a

561
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: one eight right, not only do they do. It's not

562
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: like George Clooney decided he was going to go to

563
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: Lake Como, you know, and take a couple of years off.

564
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: He was the most accessible celebrity on the planet. He

565
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: would wait at his window and run outside multiple times

566
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: a day and talk to people and tour vans driving

567
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: by and take pictures them. He wouldn't invite them into

568
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: his house and give him stuff. And so I'm not

569
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,479
Speaker 1: saying he because he was so accessible before that he

570
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: that he doesn't deserve privacy now, but it absolutely means

571
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: that to switch like that on a day, UM is

572
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: concerning at the very least, Where do you go from here? Dan? Here,

573
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: You've got this podcast that's creating really a huge amount

574
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 1: of buzz, a lot of controversy. It's really prompting Richard

575
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: to be on the cover of People magazine. I mean,

576
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: this is probably much bigger than you ever anticipated. So

577
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: what are your plans for the future? Um, I don't know.

578
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: I literally just finished the first I mean, I have

579
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: a couple of things that I'm cooking up, but I

580
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: mean hopefully it'll be Um, can you tell us what

581
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: you're cooking up? Give it, give us a little bit

582
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: of an idea. Why not? Yeah, I'm working, Well, give

583
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: me a scoop here, Dan, It's not it's gonna sound

584
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: really boring compared to this one. I'm working on a

585
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: documentary idea about the Minnesota State Fair, uh and all

586
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: the different people that coalesced on this thing that started

587
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: a fifty years ago as for you know, if you're

588
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: a way for farmers to get together, and now it's

589
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: literally a crossroads of of different cultures and issues in

590
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: the state and larger issues and plus you know, like

591
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: butter sculptures. I was going to say, a big sea

592
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: of humanity and a lot of funnel cakes. Yeah, I

593
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: want to come back like I'll need Richard more than

594
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: a lot of corn dogs. That sounds interesting. That's a

595
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: good sign for sure. Dan to Bersky, thank you for

596
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: talking to me, and I think your listeners will be

597
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: interested in hearing your views on all this because this

598
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: is a little more unfiltered and it's really coming from

599
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: your heart. Thank you. Thanks to Dan to Pursky, First

600
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: Look Media, and Stitcher for making this possible. I really

601
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: enjoyed going behind the scenes of this podcast, and a

602
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: big thank you to my team at Erewolf and mid

603
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: Roll as well. Thanks to Gianna Palmer for producing and

604
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: to Gared O'Connell mixing and engineering. Thanks also to our

605
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: social media may event we like that because it's alliterative,

606
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: Alison Bresnik, and to Emily Beana for her part in

607
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: producing this show. Also a big thank you to Chris

608
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: Bannon and Mark Phillips. Thank you as always for our

609
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: Ruthie theme music. Bryan Goldsmith, Mitch s Emil and I

610
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: are executive producers of this podcast. And lastly, if you

611
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: came here because you're missing Richard Simmons fan and you

612
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 1: liked what you heard, you might like other episodes of

613
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: our podcast. We hope so like the one where Alec

614
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: Baldwin shared what it's like to perform as President Trump

615
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: on SNL, or when Samantha b gave her take on

616
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: being the only woman in Late Night. Recently, I got

617
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: Tony Robbins explanation of how President Trump's leadership style compares

618
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: to President Obama's. Interesting right, So if you like what

619
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: you've heard, please subscribe to my podcast on iTunes just

620
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: search Katie Couric. Very creative, I know,