WEBVTT - Transgender Youth Care Targeted 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:14.880 In April of twenty twenty one, Arkansas Republican Governor Asa 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.239 Hutchinson veto to bill which banned gender affirming treatment for 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:24.279 transgender children even with a parents' consent. If House Bill 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:29.080 fifteen seventy becomes law, then we are creating new standards 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:34.240 of legislative interference with physicians and parents. And the bill 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.760 did become law after the State House and Senate voted 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.560 to override his veto, and Arkansas became the first state 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:46.560 to ban physicians from administering hormone therapy to transgender youth 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.960 younger than eighteen. Other states followed with similar bands enacted 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:55.400 in Alabama, Arizona, South Dakota, Tennessee, in Utah, and now 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.640 lawmakers in more than two dozen other states are weighing 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.520 legislation restrict or band access to gender affirming medical care 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:09.120 for transgender youth, prompting legal challenges from LGBTQ groups that 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.160 argue the bills or discriminatory. Joining me is Sasha Booker, 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.319 senior attorney with LAMB Illegal. I would like you to 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:21.880 start by explaining what exactly is meant by gender affirming 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.160 care what it encompasses. One thing to unpack immediately when 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.960 talking about gender affirming care is that it's not, you know, 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:33.200 some kind of care that isn't already regularly provided to 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.679 almost anyone, you know, whether you're talking about hormones. You know, 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.840 we all know someone who is kicking testosterone because maybe 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.039 you know, you're an older guy and you want to 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.480 boost here, or you need it for other medical reasons. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:46.520 There's just a whole range of reasons why, you know, 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.640 people undergo hormonal treatment. You know, one of the treatments 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.640 is puberty blockers, you know, which is something that's used 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:56.040 for a number of conditions, like precocious puberty. But really, 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.520 you know, what it boils down to is that this care, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.320 you know, it's not just automat addically granted to anyone 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.960 that asks for it. It's a pison that's made between 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.400 a patient and a physician and their family looking at 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.440 the best options on how to treat gender dysphoria, which 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.280 is a serious medically recognized condition. You know that if 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.120 denied that care, you know that patient's going to experience. 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.280 According to the American Medical Association, and you know, other 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:26.040 healthcare organizations really serious consequences, including suicidal ideation and debilitating 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.440 depression if they're denied that treatment. That's just something that's 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.760 been found by courts and by medicine across the board 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.000 for decades now. So it's hard to give you a 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.400 concrete definition because it's the same care that everybody gets, 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.600 just that it's the care that's provided to treat gender 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.560 disapoint Can you tell us generally about these laws or 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:48.840 bills that restrict or ban access to gender affirming medical 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:53.200 care for transgender youth? How do they differentiate them from 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.440 the treatment given to other youth, for example, let's say 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.840 for precocious puberty. Well, I mean they're not in the 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.480 sense that they're not, you know, making a distinction. They're 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:05.919 just picking on trans kids and saying, look, you can't 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.200 have this care, and they even clarifying some of the 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.720 bill language that you know, sher will continue to provide 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.600 it for other conditions, but for you and your family, 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.200 we're going to absolutely deny it. So it's there's these 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.440 bills that you know, for all of the lift service 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.359 that's given to parental rights, their bills that drip those 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.520 rights from parents and say that you know, we the 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.840 government without an ounce of medical training. In most cases, 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:29.720 you know, feel like we know better than decades of 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.120 research and best practice medical care, and are going to 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.720 decide that we're going to create this categorical rule that 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.839 says that anyone seeking a specific kind of care, say 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.960 puberty blockers, we're going to categorically deny that to trans kids, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.360 you know, because we think we know better. And you know, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.800 oftentimes you have sat through a lot of these different 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.080 hearings and when when pressed on these questions, you know, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.720 they will concede that they don't have the medical background 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.480 or training, or you know, wave off the fact that 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.640 every preeminent healthcare organization in the country that looked at 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.160 the question of whether this healthcare is politically effective, as 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.720 you know, resoundedly clarified that it does. Whether it's the 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.880 American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Associations, American Academy 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.800 for Pediatrics. You know, the list is endless. And as 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.719 opposed to that state legislators that is deciding to put 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.440 theirselves in the shoes of parents and families in the 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.760 medical community and decide what's best. And it's just absolutely 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.360 infuriating that they were able to do this. Of course, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.719 it's one thing to you know, provide those kinds of 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.520 arguments in a state legislative hearing where you feel like 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.640 you've got the advantage there by not being rebutted, you know, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.960 with the science and instead of stigma. But you know, 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.479 when the rubber hits the road, and in these cases 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.080 moved to litigation, the courts have, even in very conservative 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.080 parts of the country like Arkansas and Alabama, has said 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.719 that just doesn't wash here. You're not turning to best 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.240 practice medicine, you're not turning to science. You're don't have 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.279 a basis for these arguments. And you know, have thankfully 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.520 enjoined those really dangerous attempts to strip parents and kids 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.080 of the best care that they can get. These bills 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.800 and laws, do they target the parents, the children, the 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:10.600 doctors with civil or criminal penalties even yeah, oh yes, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.520 all three. There's you know, and well, you know, mostly 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.080 it's the doctors, you know, because the aim is to 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.880 chill the availability of care altogether, to scare people, you know, 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.200 and that's I think that bears repeating too. And there 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.120 was a hearing that I watched a while back, and 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.080 you know, one of the medical professionals that was providing 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.640 testimonies basically told the letstate legislative hearing to stop scaring people, 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:33.600 because that's what this really boils down to. These are 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.440 really scared tactics, and that's what a lot of these 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.400 bills do. They seek to criminalize providers. You know, they're 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.120 following the hippocratic oaths, and they're following you know, best 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.200 practice medicine, and they're looking to the science, you know, 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:49.039 and that again is clearly shown that these this care 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:52.120 is clinically effective, and the states that are passing these 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.320 laws are speaking to drip that right of them and 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.080 then to actually punish them not just with civil penalties, 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.320 but with criminal penalties as well, you know. And a 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.040 lot of them have a county hunter provisions that verify 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.920 that if a clinician, you know, seeks to refer someone 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.240 to another state for care, that they could also be 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.000 on the hook for liability. So it's clearly a you know, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.880 ideologically driven efforts to be If you look at the 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.280 landscape here, it's it's not just healthcare, it's sports bands, 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:21.080 it's bathroom bands. It's absolute shameless targeting of the most 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.400 vulnerable kids that we have in our school transgender kids, 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.080 and npinary kids. You know, it's just absolutely reprehensible. Eleven 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.760 states have bills or laws with criminal penalties, and I 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.200 was surprised that the blue states of New Jersey and 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.640 Hawaii are included in that. Those are bills that are 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.800 going to move forward. But you know, I think that 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.040 this has been a concerted effort by you know, th 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.000 folks you know on the you know far right that 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.120 are speaking to you know, influence you know, state legislators 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.560 wherever they can, and you know in any and even 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:54.640 in the most conservative parts of the country like in 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.800 Texas and Oklahoma or wherever you have there. I mean, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.679 there's there's you know, progressive folks that you know trying 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.760 to move forward, you know, legislation protecting folks. So, you know, 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.640 I think that you know, the language in those bills 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.000 is it just demonstrates, you know, the rabid, you know 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.040 approach that a lot of these folks have taken. They're 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.040 not even attempting to moderate their views to you know, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.880 make a piece of legislation viable in those places. To me, 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.680 it just demonstrates, you know the viciousness of these attacks. 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.840 At least three of the states, Oklahoma, Virginia, and South 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.080 Carolina are targeting people up to the ages of twenty 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.000 one and twenty six. Do you know how they justify 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.560 that leap. I don't know how they justify any of 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.240 this tork Dune. It's unbelievable. I mean to me, that 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.880 just again underscores that this isn't about healthcare, this isn't 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.600 about sports. This is about a view of the world 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.280 that would erase transgender people altogether. And it doesn't end 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.560 with healthcare, and it won't end at twenty six to one, 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.240 end a thirty six. It's just an ongoing effort. You know. 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.400 It's just so important, you know that people recognize that 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.960 this is the partisan attack and it's it's about targeting 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.040 a specific vulnerable population in our country has seen this before, 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.280 you know, with different vulnerable populations, and we will prevail. 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.720 But it's just a really dark moment, especially even when 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.560 these bills don't move forward, they have an impact. They 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.360 have a mental health impact on again some of the 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:14.840 most vulnerable kids out there, and it's just, you know, 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.840 really sad to see stay legislator get swept up in this, 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.960 you know, almost trans panic and introduce these bills that 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.160 target and seek to cause great harm to these kids, 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.520 and you know, unfortunately that rhetoric does get to trans 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.840 kids and impacts their mental health. We know that because 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.880 we've seen spikes. There's a you know, a great resource 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.160 available for folks called the trans Lifeline, and they track 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.360 the number of calls they get, and whenever these kinds 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.800 of bills are introduced, whether they're viable or not, they 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.200 see a spike. I think it's just an obvious inclusion 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.120 that this is because of the way in which this 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.720 rhetoric is really ramped up in the last few years, 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.120 that it's become you know, any divisive cultural or I 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.600 guess these folks that are engaging in this war seem 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.360 to forget that there are victims and there are real 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.160 people on the other side of this, and there's a 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.840 lot of harm and damage being done. You mentioned Arkansaw. 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.920 What argument did the acl you use there to challenge 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.720 the law. One of the primary arguments is the constitutional 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.880 protection against providing an equal protection you know, the equal 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.600 protection clause. The bills in a lot of cases clarify 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.760 that again that the care that they're seeking to trip 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.240 from trans kids they will freely provide to other kids, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.679 So they're not making any pretense that this is about 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.319 targeting trans kids in particular, you know, a politically unpopular, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:32.200 vulnerable population, and the failure successfully made legal arguments to 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.400 that effect, you know, into equal protection clause. But I 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:36.240 think really what it boils down to is, but I've 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.880 just been going over earlier and that the courts are 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:43.160 thankfully rigorate and are paying attention to detail and things 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.440 that you can get away within a legislative hearing don't 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.640 wash there. And I think the courts in Arkansas in 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:49.920 Alabama and that will probably see, you know, as a 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.480 result of this legislative session as well, they have seen 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.000 through that, you know, the charade. You know, they know 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.800 that decisions that are being made here aren't being made 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.000 in the best entry of the state or of people 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.400 in Arkansas, and they're being made based on animals. Otherwise 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.280 you would be able to provide the scientific evidence that 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.360 would support your view that this carrey danger. And the 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.520 courts have looked at the arguments that are being put 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.840 forward showing that no, you know, this carrey is medically necessary. 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.840 It's held the same carrits provided to other kids, you know, 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.280 on a daily basis, and they're not going after precocious puberty, 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.640 and I'm trying to strip puberty blockers from those kids. 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:27.640 They're just going after trans kid And I think that 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.160 the courts and really seen through that, and I'm confidence 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.319 that that will continue to get the case. So in Arkansas, 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.760 that law, the so called Safe Act, was enacted over 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:41.200 the veto of its Republican governor. Yet the Arkansas Attorney 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:45.200 General said his office will continue to defend the acts constitutionality. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.640 What stage are they at? Was it just a preliminary 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.880 injunction and now they're going for a permanent rule, you know, 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:52.160 And I just you know, I can't let this go 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.920 without pointing out that folks are probably familiar with the 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:57.360 news clip of John Stewart formally from The Daily Show 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.079 interviewing the Attorney General's office and you know, really call 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.679 them out on the junk science they were putting out 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.400 with regard to the care and he responded to, you know, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.239 the junk science points that that's an incredibly made upsistic, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.400 you know, and that's what the courts are saying as well. 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.920 But to answer your question, what happened in Arkansas that 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.200 the court you know, yes, you're right, and it just 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.160 shows to me of all the priorities that the state 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.640 legislature could be focused on, you know, whether it's improving 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.439 schools or fixing postles in the roads. I don't know, 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.200 there's like seems like there's a million things to do 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.600 other than you know, really focus in on this vulnerable 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.079 lessons too percent of the population and pass these really 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.319 vicious laws. But it just shows you the panic apparently 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.240 that that you know, involved with these these moves to 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.760 try to strip these protections. You know that they would 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:46.080 override Governor Hutchinson's veto and uh and and thankfully you know, 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.760 the court you know it did issue a preliminary and 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.320 juncts and saying like the state back or whatever you 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:52.719 want to call it, you know, we call it the 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:57.920 attack trans Kids Built. Um was enjoined and it was 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.640 appealed by the Attorney Generals US to the a Circuit 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.760 Court of Appeals, and the Circuit Court of Appeals, you know, 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.720 again looked at the science and said, you know, frankly, no, 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.600 this is that doesn't watch here, you know um and 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.640 you know the shows science over stigma and upheld them 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.080 the injunctions, so it's still in place. There was a 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.800 trial um last fall and we were expecting a decision 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.120 I believe sometimes soon, but I would check in with Afia, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:29.360 you folks who have litigated this case masterfully. Also, it's 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.480 not just Arkansas. There was another healthcare band past in 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.320 Alabama last year and similarly, the court you know it 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.360 needs are very as folks know, conservative parts in the country. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.440 We're not talking about Hawaii here, and the court looked 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.640 at the evidence and said, no, we're gonna I'm not 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.720 gonna let this dangerous piece of legislation that's not grounded 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.840 in science and clearly ideologically driven go into effect and 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.680 target and harm real human beings, real people. So thankfully 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.800 that case was enjoined as well. Of course, these you know, 0:12:57.840 --> 0:12:59.760 are going to continue to move through the process, but 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.720 I'm grateful that they won't go into effect, you know, 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.480 while litigation proceeds, so these folks can obtain the care 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.200 at these parents and family and providers can give the 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.440 best care that they can for these folks and these 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.720 really difficult parts of the country. So does the ACLU 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:18.000 or LAMB illegal intend to fight each of these laws 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.880 if they're passed. We're going to defend trans kids and 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.080 you know, every day of the week. Three sixty five 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:26.720 days a week. You know, we have to make smart, 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.120 strategic decisions, you know, and that's just something that's developing. 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:34.000 And we certainly will fight until every trans kid is 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.240 able to access the care that they need and deserve. 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.720 And that's going to be what we're gonna do, you know, 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.280 till the end, and I know we will prevail. This 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.560 is again the mirrors you know, the civil rights battles 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.480 that we've had in this country unfortunately, over and over 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.079 and over again, you know, when they're talking about marriage 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:54.280 equality or non discrimination protections. It's just the same story 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.880 over and over again. And you know, I am confident 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.280 that we will prevail. And again, you know, I'm really 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.440 excited about the fact that the courts have seen through, 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.280 you know, the charade and understand that this is care 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.320 that is medically necessary. They're turning the science, you know, 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:13.280 rather than stigma in reviewing these challenges. There are also 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:18.520 bills that band transgender girls from playing on sports teams 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.920 that match their gender identity. Have there been legal fights 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.160 against those bills as well if they progressed to any 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:30.120 reportable point? Um, yeah, And again in response to that 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.160 is I'm going to make the larger point, you know, 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.360 once more, that this really demonstrates the fact that, you know, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:40.640 whether it's healthcare or sports, or bathrooms or names and pronouns, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.920 these attacks are across the board. It's just absurd to 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.560 me that, you know, that day legislatures would invest so 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:51.160 much time and money and effort on such a vulnerable population, 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.120 you know, which is less than two percent of the 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.200 population and target these kids when there are so many 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.880 other important priorities, you know, making sure that people are 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.400 able to get the healthcare they need, and making sure 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.160 that the schools are meeting their kids needs and can 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.880 sure people have food on the table. It's just unbelievable 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:08.960 that they've chosen this is the thing that they feel 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.720 is the most important for them to get done. But yeah, 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:13.680 so there are a number of challenges that are working 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.200 there through the courts to make sure that kids can participate. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.920 You know. One of them is the case that you know, 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:23.160 we're working on involving a transgender girl in the state 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.840 of West Virginia who is seeking to play on our 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.880 girls cross country team, and that case is working its 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:30.920 way up to the four circuit. You know, we're working 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.080 on a case in Tennessee for on behalf of the 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.960 transgender boy who just wants to play golf on the 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.120 boys team and is being told by the state of 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.480 Tennessee that he can't. And there's also a couple of 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:42.760 other cases that have been filed, you know, challenging those 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.400 as well. But again, it's not about sports, So this 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.760 is about targeting trans kids. Thanks Sasha. That's Sasha Bookert, 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:55.560 Senior attorney was Lambda llegal companies in Illinois that collect fingerprints, 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.800 face scans, and voice prints without proper consent face the 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.320 risk of millions of dollars in penalties. After the state 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:07.200 High courts ruling in a case against Whitecastle, a former 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.720 Whitecastle manager alleged that the Hamburger chain violated her biometric 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:17.040 privacy rights by collecting fingerprints without her written consent every 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.040 time she clocked in and out of the timekeeping system. 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.800 The Illinois Supreme Court found four to three that a 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.960 separate claim for damages can arise each time a business 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.720 fails to seek permission to gather biometric data from workers 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:36.360 or consumers, or fails to disclose retention plans for that information. 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:41.480 Since the state's enactment of the Biometric Information Privacy Act 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.760 in two thousand and eight, It's been viewed by defense 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.880 lawyers as a boon to the plaintiff's class action bar 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.600 which has filed litigation against big tech and social media 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:57.920 companies airlines, railroads, retailers, grocery stores, restaurants, and more. Joining 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:02.400 me as privacy specialist, James, a partner at Thompson Coburn 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.960 start by, you know, explaining what the issue was before 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.639 the Illinois Supreme Court. There's been several ambiguous issues that 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:17.000 have been litigated under the Biometric Information Privacy Act, and 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.840 one of the early ones that was addressed in a 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.720 case called Rosenbach was who can bring an action under 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:28.240 BIPPA to utilize the liquidated damagist provisions? Is an aggrieved 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:33.359 person as the law defines it. And then the issue 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:37.200 that came up in Whitecastle was whether or not each 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:42.680 collection of a biometric can result in its own claim 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.480 as far as those liquidated damagist provisions that are concerned. So, 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.920 if let's say an employer uses as a biometric time 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:54.680 clock and they're they're sued by the employee for violations 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.560 of PIPPA, they you say that the same thumb print, 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.000 is it a claim for just that first collection of 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.520 the thumb print, or is it for every collection from 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.080 the first to the last, Because each violation it can 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.720 be a thousand dollars liquid data damages or if it's 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:17.320 a knowing or reckless violation, five thousand dollars. So obviously 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:22.879 this makes the potential liability several times greater in magnitude. 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.240 I've never done anything about on the what is the 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.159 purpose of Illinois Act? I mean, do the employees at 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:35.480 Whitecastle know? Don't they know that they're getting their fingerprints scanned? 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:40.600 What's the point of the act. The idea was that 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:46.080 biometrics are considered just a somewhat different type of sensitive 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:50.119 information than others, largely in part because they can't be changed. 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.959 Whereas you can you can change a password, you can 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.000 change an account number, you can't change a thumbprint. You 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.840 can't change in Irish scant and so the onner like 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.760 lature wanted to make sure that people were notified and 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:09.479 give their consent for those those collections. And so actually 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.680 many years ago it was enacted, I think in two 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.159 thousand and eight. Technically it was the second state biometrics 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.879 law after Texas, and actually one of my colleagues here 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.840 at the firm John Cullerton was in the only Senate 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.200 and was president, and the one I sent it soon 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.280 after the law was enacted, and so he could tell 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.320 you that they just wanted people to be notified that 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.720 this was happening and into some way to give their consent, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:38.879 so to scourage the surreptitious collection of this kind of information, 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:45.000 and to have some incentive for employers or others to 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.040 get that kind of consent in place. But the intention 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.000 wasn't what we have in place now, which is that 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.920 this has become just a hot bit of litigation with 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.920 absolutely enormous potential damages for a company, when the plant 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.760 don't have to show any actual damages at all. Why 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:09.760 did the majority decide that you need consent I guess 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:14.520 for each and every finger swipe or face scan. Here 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.359 they were really focusing on the damage issue. Theoretically, you 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.680 could certainly do one consent that would cover all collection. 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:26.120 But if you don't get that appropriate consent, whether it's 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.760 once or each time, could you have a claim for 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.720 each one of those? And so here the Millinary Supreme Court, 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.840 the majority is saying, and I would notice it it's 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:41.439 a four three majority. So it was contentious that although 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:46.240 they're sympathetic that this could result in extremely large damages, 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.960 that the way of the law is written, that this 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.679 is the conclusion they had to come to the dissent 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:57.640 or for Democratic appointed justices in the majority, one Democrat 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.920 that chie judge and two Republicans in the descent, that 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.159 the legislature could not have intended this kind of result, 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:10.520 to have this kind of enormous damage potential. The damages 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.720 are discretionary, so you could have a case without any 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.159 damages at all. Yeah, And for strategic reasons, a lot 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:20.840 of plaintiffs don't plead any actual damages from it to 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.919 avoid having cases removed to federal court. It's sometimes more 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.760 advantageous to not played any So, yeah, you can have 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:30.560 a case where someone's pleasing that they were not actually 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:34.480 damaged at all based on the violation of PIPPA, but 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:39.360 they want to utilize that thousand dollars per violation statutory 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.200 Are there some huge awards out there that have already 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:47.000 been put in place. There was a case against a 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.760 railroad freight railroad company a few months ago. It was 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:54.679 a very large verdict and we're in somebody just at 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.119 the start of this because we're working through several of 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:01.000 the issues. A lot of cases right now have been settled, 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:05.439 and we've seen certainly settlements many in the millions of dollars, 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:07.679 tens of millions of dollars. Those are willing to go 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.199 up considerably after the ruling and Whitecastle. As we move 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.800 forward to cases that are currently pending are going to 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:16.760