1
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,200
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

2
00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:20,079
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Allaway. So, Tracy, we

3
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,040
Speaker 1: don't really talk about it that much on the show,

4
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,799
Speaker 1: but if there's one thing I know about you and

5
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:31,400
Speaker 1: your career, you're very into sort of like weird asset classes,

6
00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 1: weird income streams that get packaged and resolved, A lifelong

7
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 1: fascination of yours. Yeah, I guess. I guess you could

8
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,560
Speaker 1: broadly say I'm interested in the financialization of various assets.

9
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 1: But in recent years there have been some pretty amazing ones.

10
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,800
Speaker 1: I think one of the weird things about this is

11
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,880
Speaker 1: that nowadays, when you hear it, it doesn't actually sound

12
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 1: that weird, But when these things were happening just a

13
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, it was really strange. So I remember,

14
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,840
Speaker 1: for instance, there was a solar panel securitization a few

15
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,800
Speaker 1: years ago, and everyone thought that was nuts because bankers

16
00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: were securitizing Sunshine into an investable bond. But nowadays that

17
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,800
Speaker 1: seems very very normal. And then some of the other

18
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 1: ones that have come up are franchise rights and sort

19
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,680
Speaker 1: of brand values from restaurants. We've had a bunch of

20
00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,800
Speaker 1: those and the latest one that everyone is kind of

21
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,759
Speaker 1: going nuts over is music rights. Yeah, exactly right. So basically,

22
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,679
Speaker 1: anything that throws off some sort of predictable or semi

23
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,400
Speaker 1: predictable ers, um, you know, future cash flows can theoretically

24
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,039
Speaker 1: be turned into a product, into a financial product that

25
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 1: can be sold. And of course one thing that we

26
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 1: know uh FROs off cash is music rights. And so

27
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 1: this year, um, there's been a budge but a couple

28
00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,639
Speaker 1: of artists that sold the rights to their catalog. Bob Dylan,

29
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 1: someone bought Bob Dylan's future cash flows. So all the

30
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,880
Speaker 1: I guess, I don't know all the music that all

31
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,600
Speaker 1: the streaming revenue, and U said, commercials and movies and

32
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,200
Speaker 1: all that he got got got a big check in

33
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 1: advance for that. Shakira is another one who just I

34
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 1: think a few weeks ago, a few weeks ago, sold

35
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,360
Speaker 1: her song catalog. So this is a hot area. I mean,

36
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,840
Speaker 1: I think there's actually like, weren't Bowie Bonds a thing

37
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,160
Speaker 1: a long time ago? That's like basically the Joe there's

38
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,680
Speaker 1: an aw thoughts episode on this. There's actually a very

39
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: very early Yeah, that was right after David Bowie died.

40
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 1: But I have to say, probably the most interesting thing

41
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 1: that happened in the music rights or royalty space last

42
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,679
Speaker 1: year was someone not selling um their music rights, and

43
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 1: that was Taylor Swift, who famously has you know, lost

44
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,600
Speaker 1: the rights to her master, her old masters, her catalog

45
00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,040
Speaker 1: of back music, and then it was bought by it

46
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,760
Speaker 1: or Braun, which is kind of her like arch nemesis

47
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 1: in the music world, and then he sold those on

48
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,640
Speaker 1: to a private equity firm called Shamrock Capital, and Taylor

49
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 1: Swift had a lot to say about that entire process,

50
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: which I'm sure we're going to get into. I gotta say,

51
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 1: someone actually emailed me saying that we should get Taylor

52
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,919
Speaker 1: Swift on the podcast to talk about all these Um, yeah,

53
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 1: why haven't we yet? I can't believe that's so obvious.

54
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 1: Why haven't we just had Taylor Swift on our podcast

55
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: you know one day. Um, we'll get her next week,

56
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,320
Speaker 1: we'll get her next year. So obviously we don't have

57
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift today. UM, We'll be upfront about that, but

58
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 1: we do have someone who knows all about this space. Yeah,

59
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 1: and there are so many questions that we need to

60
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,840
Speaker 1: get answered, like why now, how do you value these

61
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 1: uh income streams of these catalogs. Given the ongoing changing

62
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 1: nature of the music business. I mean, these days, obviously

63
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,160
Speaker 1: streaming is a really big thing, but that wasn't obviously

64
00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 1: anticipatable a few years ago. We don't know what the

65
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 1: music industry is gonna be like ten years, So so

66
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 1: many questions why now how you value these catalogs. So

67
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 1: I'm very excited we're going to be speaking with someone

68
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 1: who is a a music consultant in the business of

69
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 1: valuing exactly what we're talking about. We're going to be

70
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,719
Speaker 1: speaking with Alistair Moen of Moan Music, an expert in

71
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,160
Speaker 1: the music valuation business, to answer all these questions. So, Alistair,

72
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Of course, thanks Jo.

73
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,839
Speaker 1: So um you know why now, I mean, let's start

74
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 1: with that. I mean, we have seen a number of

75
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,360
Speaker 1: really big artists selling the rights to their work. They're

76
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 1: turning their work into an asset that can be sold. Obviously,

77
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,719
Speaker 1: this isn't totally new, It's been going on for a while,

78
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,800
Speaker 1: but it seems to be really gathering steam. So what

79
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 1: is uh, what's happening right at this moment that suddenly

80
00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,359
Speaker 1: is making this a hot asset? Class you sort of

81
00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:02,080
Speaker 1: mentioned in your introduction, dere and obviously streaming has increased

82
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 1: the recording music industry and especially the narrative around the industry.

83
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,839
Speaker 1: So the year two thousand and two thousand and fourteen,

84
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 1: there was continuing decline in the sale of recording music

85
00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 1: as physical sales dropped. Since two thousand and fourteen, you've

86
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 1: seen a streaming growing a rate of forty per year,

87
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 1: which is really encouraging. And the other thing which is

88
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,320
Speaker 1: really encouraging by that story is the nature of the consumption.

89
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,040
Speaker 1: Where obviously, in a physical environment, um, you sold a

90
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,440
Speaker 1: lot of CD s, it's sort of a one off transaction.

91
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,720
Speaker 1: But we're streaming, you've got sort of repeatable consumption and

92
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 1: it's very much um yeah, but a lot of interest

93
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,520
Speaker 1: from investors in the data is a lot better than

94
00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,760
Speaker 1: traditional sales data, and also the underlying consumption there's more

95
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,040
Speaker 1: of a There seems to be a lot more repeatable

96
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,159
Speaker 1: consumption which people are confident they can model. So I

97
00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,000
Speaker 1: think definitely that strong narrative around the recording music industry,

98
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 1: a lot of education in the market with the lacks

99
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 1: of hypnosis and primary wave doing a lot of funding rounds,

100
00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,839
Speaker 1: and definitely sort a low interest rate environment is have

101
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people looking for for assets of field

102
00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 1: long term yield, and music catalogs there's sort of been

103
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 1: a really really in vogue opportunity for that recently. So

104
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,400
Speaker 1: when we see a headline like Universal Music Publishing buying

105
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,159
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan's catalog for a reported three million dollars, what

106
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,799
Speaker 1: does that actually mean, Where does the price come from,

107
00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,800
Speaker 1: and what does the catalog actually entail in terms of

108
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:43,200
Speaker 1: rights and cash flow? Sure, so that's a very good question. Um.

109
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 1: First of all, when you're talking about a catalog, that

110
00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,400
Speaker 1: can mean different types of rights. So really broadly, you've

111
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 1: got the master rights, so that's the actual recording copyright,

112
00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,560
Speaker 1: and then you have the publishing copyright, which is the

113
00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:01,279
Speaker 1: underwriting underlying song or the underlying composition, And it gets

114
00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,200
Speaker 1: a little bit more complicated around with you by the

115
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 1: right to have control over that income. But those are

116
00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 1: sort of two general classes. And when Universal we're valuing

117
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,960
Speaker 1: that transaction, they'll be looking at the income streams historical

118
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,880
Speaker 1: income streams from whatever rights that buying, and they'll also

119
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 1: be looking at how long they have those rights will

120
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,320
Speaker 1: last for and then sort of trying to project those

121
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 1: rights going forward and as I sort of mentioned, you know,

122
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 1: for example, publishing copyrights last seventy years plus the life

123
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,480
Speaker 1: of the offer, so it's a very long term cash flow.

124
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 1: So most of these investments are looking for low yield

125
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 1: and sort of projecting ten to fifteen years of cash

126
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,760
Speaker 1: flow with a terminal value. So it's is very much

127
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,560
Speaker 1: a long term horizon of looking at the past history,

128
00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,320
Speaker 1: how long you're those rights for, and sort of how

129
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 1: confident you are and predicting those future cash flows. You know,

130
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,640
Speaker 1: you mentioned, um, the high quality of the data that

131
00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,440
Speaker 1: we're streaming, these assets can be analyzed in a way

132
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 1: that they haven't been. It hasn't been so easy in

133
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 1: the past, like maybe when people are buying CDs and such.

134
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, streaming as a phenomenon hasn't

135
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,120
Speaker 1: really been around that long, and we know that you know,

136
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 1: it's right, there's always potential for technological disruption, So how

137
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:27,080
Speaker 1: do people or how do you go about essentially modeling

138
00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 1: the risk that the business just dramatically changes again like

139
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 1: another sort of like napster or something could come along

140
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: in theory and people stop paying for music, or the

141
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,400
Speaker 1: amount of people pay for music plunges, Like how do

142
00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,520
Speaker 1: how do those risks get incorporated into what people are

143
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,920
Speaker 1: willing to pay. So that's a really interesting question. And

144
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,040
Speaker 1: historically before the recent boom, publishing catalogs or have the

145
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,400
Speaker 1: master catalogs but sort of considered a lot more lower risk.

146
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 1: And for that for the very reason you mentioned that

147
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: UM in terms of of the royalty is coming from

148
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 1: B to C income, so from sales or streams. That's

149
00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,199
Speaker 1: something which does change over time. But what's often quite

150
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,400
Speaker 1: prominent in music catalogs, which is on the publishing side,

151
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,200
Speaker 1: is B two B licensing, so licenseseing revenue from radio

152
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 1: play or from the background usage of music and stores,

153
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,680
Speaker 1: or from the background usage of music and bars, and

154
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,760
Speaker 1: as well as sort of licensing for TV and film,

155
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,200
Speaker 1: and going forward, I guess there's a lot of hope

156
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 1: that you know, new technologies such as AI et cetera,

157
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,280
Speaker 1: to be also licenses for that. So that's one of

158
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: the reasons why particularly publishing is which has more of

159
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,520
Speaker 1: those diverse income streams typically is sort of considered more

160
00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 1: lower risks, So that's very much a consideration, and looking

161
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,680
Speaker 1: at the types of incumbent it's sort of quite surprising

162
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,319
Speaker 1: is how many diverse income streams can come from one copyright.

163
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,120
Speaker 1: So Joe just mentioned the idea of the business model

164
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,719
Speaker 1: changing and how might that impact master right. So, one

165
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,560
Speaker 1: of the really interesting things about the Taylor Swift saga

166
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,440
Speaker 1: that I mentioned in the intro was that after her

167
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,560
Speaker 1: Old Masters were sold to this private equity firm, she

168
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 1: basically said that she was going to re record her

169
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 1: old songs um in order to like get control back

170
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,160
Speaker 1: over them. I have to say, like, this is an

171
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 1: area that I'm not familiar with, but what does that

172
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,360
Speaker 1: actually mean? And how is she allowed to do that?

173
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,920
Speaker 1: Because I thought the whole point of Old Masters was

174
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 1: to basically preserve the copyright on the music. And then lastly,

175
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 1: would that vastly change the value of the songs that

176
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,200
Speaker 1: this private equity firm, Shamrock Capital just bought for millions

177
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,599
Speaker 1: of dollars? Of course sure. So before I went to

178
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 1: the music industry, I was actually a trained lawyer, and

179
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,320
Speaker 1: it's become really in handy because as well as valuing

180
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,800
Speaker 1: these royalty cash flows and analyzing it, you've could be

181
00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,320
Speaker 1: got to be really familiar with the legal um stipilations

182
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 1: of these contracts. So when I spoke about the master

183
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,440
Speaker 1: recording and the and the publishing composition. The other difference

184
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 1: there is that, um, if you write a song and

185
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 1: you do it, someone else does a cover version of it,

186
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 1: someone else can always see another cover, but you can't record.

187
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,360
Speaker 1: You can't write the same song again, So that publishing

188
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 1: contract always remains unique, but you could always For example,

189
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is effectively covering her own songs. So typically

190
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,400
Speaker 1: the record label when it scien Taylor Swift, there be

191
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,280
Speaker 1: provisions and those contracts saying that she can't cover her

192
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,000
Speaker 1: own songs for a specified period of time. So that's

193
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: what's going on there, is that she is effectively covering

194
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 1: her own work, and that's something which, yeah, there's stipulations

195
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,480
Speaker 1: in the contract. The second part of your question is

196
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 1: really interesting because the short answer is it's un tested. Um,

197
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 1: there's being sort of people in the past, prominent artists

198
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,319
Speaker 1: such as Prince who have had fell out with the

199
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,520
Speaker 1: record label and always used this as sort of a

200
00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,319
Speaker 1: part of the negotiation. We're saying, well, I'm going to

201
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,240
Speaker 1: rerecord my entire catalog, and usually that goes around the

202
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 1: negotiation of perhaps giving those masters back or increasingly share

203
00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,600
Speaker 1: of the income the arts takes. So there's actually something

204
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,560
Speaker 1: relatively untested because there's a few examples of some smaller

205
00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 1: ats doing it, but it's always been used as a

206
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 1: negotiation tactic, a sort of nuclear option, and no one

207
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,719
Speaker 1: until Taylor has actually sort of pulled that option. So

208
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,240
Speaker 1: it will be interesting to see because it does raise

209
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,280
Speaker 1: a mini questions. So just I'm Taylor Swift real quickly.

210
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,880
Speaker 1: In theory, if she were to re record all of

211
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 1: her own all of her old albums, and theoretically she

212
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,319
Speaker 1: would like I don't know, release them as new albums,

213
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,440
Speaker 1: albums or something, the fans might stream those, in which

214
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 1: case she would get some streaming revenue from that. But

215
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,880
Speaker 1: then the owner of those original masters would get some

216
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,080
Speaker 1: sort of licensing revenue, as they would from any other cover.

217
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, they whoever owns the end lining publishing assets,

218
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:15,079
Speaker 1: and typically in the industry, um the artist retains ownership

219
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 1: or at least for long and the long term, the

220
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,160
Speaker 1: artist will retain any ownership of those publishing interests. And

221
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,959
Speaker 1: this is what you might see a lot of these headlines,

222
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 1: is that a lot of the big catalogs being sold

223
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 1: a people even heard before because they're actually the songwriters

224
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 1: behind these songs and that's the sort of the really

225
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 1: unique I p and that's some sort of the more

226
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,720
Speaker 1: the air of the music industry which is not as prominent,

227
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 1: which is but we're on the very valuable ap is.

228
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,839
Speaker 1: So actually, Alis, this would be a good spot because

229
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 1: you mentioned you are a lawyer, but or you were

230
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 1: previously a lawyer. What do you just tell us sort

231
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,560
Speaker 1: of real quickly for listeners, how you got into this

232
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,679
Speaker 1: space and the sort of like broad trajectory of how

233
00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 1: you got here in this moment to be a MU

234
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 1: consultant and expert in music valuation. Sure, so, I was

235
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,560
Speaker 1: actually originally a corporate lawyer in New Zealand, where I

236
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,560
Speaker 1: grew up, and I moved to New York about eight

237
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,079
Speaker 1: years ago to study music business at n y U.

238
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,439
Speaker 1: And while I was at n y U, I actually

239
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,120
Speaker 1: had a lot of spent a lot of time in

240
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 1: the music publishing industry, including one publisher that was sort

241
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 1: of acquiring a lot of copyrights, and eventually after moving

242
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 1: back to London working on the legal side at Universal Records,

243
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 1: I worked at a company for the about three years

244
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,680
Speaker 1: called twenty three Capital, which was lending into the space

245
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 1: um leaning against back catalogs rather than purchasing, and I

246
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,640
Speaker 1: had the sort of experience of doing the analysis of

247
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 1: the royalty statements and yeah, to provide a little bit

248
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,560
Speaker 1: of detail that these statements that you know, half in

249
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,640
Speaker 1: your statements around could be a thousand line a thousand

250
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 1: lines of excels. So the very detailed and sort of

251
00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 1: specialist and then like knowledge needed to go for these.

252
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 1: So I've sort of had the royalty analysis siety as

253
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,080
Speaker 1: well as having an understanding of the contractual relationships. So

254
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 1: at twenty three Capital I was doing a lot of

255
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,880
Speaker 1: analysis of the underwriting essentially of these catalogs, and a

256
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,520
Speaker 1: lot of music education, a lot of music education seminars

257
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,360
Speaker 1: to our investors um and yeah, no, I'm just sort

258
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 1: of doing it on a freelance basis and in particular

259
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 1: working with a lot of artist teams who are suddenly

260
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: catalog to get a sense of value and to sort

261
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 1: of put the materials to give in a nice way

262
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 1: to seek interest because a lot of the diligence and

263
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 1: financial and these catalogs are very not only very specialized,

264
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 1: but very large, and that's sort of something which has

265
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 1: been understood in the industream. We have found a good

266
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 1: niche in the last last year or so. So you

267
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 1: mentioned working with artists teams, and I'm curious if in

268
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,600
Speaker 1: your mind there seems to be a sort of shift

269
00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 1: in sentiment towards selling catalogs. So my understanding is that,

270
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, selling your catalog used to be something that

271
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:13,560
Speaker 1: artists were told never to do unless absolutely necessary. But nowadays,

272
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,800
Speaker 1: because there's this sort of growing financial infrastructure around music assets,

273
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 1: artists are starting to feel a bit different and they're

274
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 1: starting to feel if they sell the rights to their

275
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 1: music they could still get some income, but maybe a

276
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 1: specialized player could do a better job of promoting the

277
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 1: catalog or you know, selling it for commercials and things

278
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,120
Speaker 1: like that and make money that way. Do you sense

279
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 1: that that shift underway? Definitely see that shifts. So I

280
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,440
Speaker 1: think when I first started the industry and artist selling

281
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 1: the catalog was it was your typical dift divorce Texas

282
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,920
Speaker 1: scenario where there was a very immediate need for liquidity,

283
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 1: and that was usually the reasons where is artist Kellogg's

284
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 1: for salt. I think now there's a lot more interest

285
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,879
Speaker 1: in the in the in the space um. Artists are

286
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,440
Speaker 1: getting probably a lot more fairer prices for their catalogs

287
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,480
Speaker 1: and it's sort of made artists and their managers think

288
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,919
Speaker 1: about things like a state planning and a lot of these,

289
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,040
Speaker 1: especially all these older artists, it's almost like a legacy

290
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 1: management scenarios. So one really good example is a company

291
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 1: called Primary Wave, which has worked with board interests in

292
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,880
Speaker 1: the likes of Ray Charles and states like that, where

293
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 1: they actually sort of it's sort of a way to

294
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: the buy, They sell a partial interest, and that company

295
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: takes over the marketing and the social media and sort

296
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:45,000
Speaker 1: of the legacy management of those catalogs. So it's definitely, um,

297
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 1: the interest is sort of let those people, artists and

298
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,320
Speaker 1: managers make those decisions from you know, I'm effectively selling

299
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,199
Speaker 1: my my pension plan, but is it better for me

300
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:56,920
Speaker 1: to have this cash right now? And I think it's

301
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,239
Speaker 1: made that more of an optional decision round of than

302
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: a last you know, worst case scenario decision, where that

303
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 1: was sort of typical reasons for natis was suddenly a catalog, right,

304
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,919
Speaker 1: So previously it was a sort of desperate thing or

305
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,080
Speaker 1: some some liquidity need a divorce or something like that,

306
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 1: and now it's just oh this, you know, it's more

307
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,399
Speaker 1: cash in hand versus you know, you know, one in

308
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 1: the hand too in the bush, I guess kind of thing.

309
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,280
Speaker 1: Is there any artistic loss with this? So like someone

310
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 1: like Shakira or Bob Dylan selling their catalogs, do they

311
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 1: take any artistic risks? Do they still retain any control

312
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,840
Speaker 1: over how their music is used? Like what? What? Or

313
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,920
Speaker 1: is it just a financial transaction. So that goes back

314
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,120
Speaker 1: to the legal question I was talking about, by what

315
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,399
Speaker 1: rights you buying? And you can buy the rights, you

316
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: can buy a passive interest and the cash flows coming

317
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,639
Speaker 1: from a catalog, but you can buy the end of

318
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: laying copyright. So in theory, if you bought anout of

319
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,360
Speaker 1: sunderline copyright without any specific provisions, you could license set

320
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,719
Speaker 1: out to whatever TV show you wanted, you could you know,

321
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,440
Speaker 1: put out a deluxury issue with all of the sessions.

322
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 1: So it's that's why it's quite an issue of are

323
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,479
Speaker 1: they buying control? And that's obviously the positive for an

324
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 1: investor because they might see ways to increase you income

325
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 1: from from that catalog. But it's also a manner of

326
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 1: negotiation for the clients trying to the artists, trying to

327
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 1: retain sort of sort of control about how that catalog

328
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: is exploited. Um, so that's sort of the the legal

329
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 1: rights being purchased is a really important when the artist

330
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 1: is considering that. So one thing I'm really fascinated by

331
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 1: and we've touched on this already, but going back to

332
00:19:55,040 --> 00:20:00,120
Speaker 1: the valuation question, Um, you know, it's it's one thing

333
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: to try to estimate the cash flows from I mean,

334
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 1: all of these are called esoteric securitizations. When we're talking

335
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 1: about intangibles like franchise and brand rights things like that.

336
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 1: It's one thing to estimate the cash flow from a

337
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 1: restaurant or you know, maybe fast food franchises, things like that,

338
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 1: other exotic um assets. But it's kind of different to

339
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 1: try to estimate cash flow from a song. When the

340
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: popularity of music and you know, what's trending and what

341
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 1: isn't tends to change quite quickly. How how do people?

342
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: How do people go about doing that? Because I mean

343
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: I think few people were Joe is gonna hate me

344
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 1: for saying this, but I think few people. For instance,

345
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 1: we're expecting Fleetwood Mac to make this big comeback on

346
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: streaming because people are sort of rediscovering the music. There, Um,

347
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,120
Speaker 1: there are other wh Why was I going to hate

348
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 1: you for saying that because you like Fleetwood macr Oh, yeah,

349
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 1: I like that, But I thought I thought you'd be

350
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 1: offended at the idea of people rediscovering them. Okay, fine,

351
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,879
Speaker 1: and then no, I'm happy people are and then I

352
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 1: guess they can go the other way as well. Right,

353
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: So Michael Jackson kind of um fell from favor due

354
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 1: to well we all know why. And so you can

355
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: see artists who are sort of unexpectedly unpopular at times.

356
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 1: So how do people go about doing that kind of analysis?

357
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: So it's sort of similar to looking at a company

358
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 1: where effectively you do a quality of earnings reports. So

359
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 1: these reyalty statements can go back, um, you know, and

360
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: get five to ten years of royalty history. Usually you

361
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 1: get three to five. And what you're trying to look

362
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 1: for in those earnings as what is what is the

363
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 1: repeatable recurring income And as you mentioned, as are people

364
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 1: still listening to this artist in the very repeatable way?

365
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 1: Given the nature of streaming, we're seeing a lot the

366
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,200
Speaker 1: calogs of the likes of the Fleetwood Maker, likes of

367
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: those those Legacy X have actually experienced growth, which is

368
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 1: really encouraging. Because of the sort of streaming environment, it's

369
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: very much a case by case basis, but I think

370
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 1: genuinely it's around the quality of the artists that a

371
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: lot of those quality artists are experiencing growth. But one

372
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 1: thing which is I guess the most difficult part of

373
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 1: doing such analysis is more recent content. So for example,

374
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: if you've got a new release from a from a

375
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: track album and that you've got three years of earnings,

376
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 1: what's second to earn in the next ten years and

377
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: what's the sort of decay there. That's been the really

378
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 1: difficult part because if you've got a long period of

379
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 1: three to five earnings, we see what you do see.

380
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: A lot of these legacy care logs are very repeatable,

381
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: recurring income, which is growing of the industry. That you

382
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,959
Speaker 1: can get confidence of that. But it's quite difficult, um

383
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 1: when you've got more recent content because I guess so

384
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: historical earnings aren't necessarily reflective of the few consumption. So yeah,

385
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: it's very much um a numbers game and sort of

386
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 1: going into the analysis. And also I guess there is

387
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: some sort of creative or a and our touched with

388
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: the acquira might like theatist and might think they're relevant.

389
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: They might think that being underpromoted recently and they might

390
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: think that they've got some cultural relevance going forward and

391
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: they think they can sort of bring that back by

392
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: using their own marketing and distribution. I think, you know,

393
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: Jamie Powell over at ft Alphabelle has written about this.

394
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 1: So you mentioned, like Drake, we don't really know like

395
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 1: in ten or twenty years, the degree to which people

396
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 1: will be listening to him. Someone like Bob Dylan. People

397
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 1: have been listening to him for decades. But you know,

398
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: like when I was a kid and my parents would

399
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: like listen to a Bob Dylan cassette in the car,

400
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 1: And now I personally am a huge Bob Dylan fan.

401
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, when I'm in the car

402
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: with my daughter, she probably has headphones on looking at

403
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 1: something on her tablet. So do you worry about that

404
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 1: like that like historical like patterns of these sort of

405
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: legacy acts. We're sure just these huge cultural forces that

406
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 1: maybe like after a while, they just you know, do

407
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: people worry like there's no my generation isn't going to

408
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: hand down Bob Dylan the same way my parents generation

409
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: did to me. Yeah, And that's to be honest, it's

410
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: the most interesting part of doing this valuation worker is

411
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: sort of steeping back and thinking about the artists and

412
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: thinking about how confident you are they're going to remain

413
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: um culturally relevance. Going back to what I said before,

414
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: one interesting angle was also consider the the business licensing

415
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,479
Speaker 1: aspect of a catalog. So for example, um, you know

416
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: a song like U Be My Baby? How often is

417
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: that used in the film? Or how often is Sweet

418
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: Dreams used in eighties film? And there's sort of were

419
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: those those songs which have a market period of time

420
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: through often news a lot and those sort of um circumstances,

421
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: and that sort of we might be getting your confidence

422
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: in that in that recurring income, or might even be

423
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: more sources like commercial or rock radio, which you know

424
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: still plays you know, sweet chearld of Mine all the time.

425
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: It's sort of looking at those different sources and getting

426
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: a story. But but ultimately, after sort of doing all

427
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: the analysis, that's what you're asking yourself is that would

428
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 1: do I have it? Do I feel confident that this

429
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: is an artist is going to remain significantly culturally relevant

430
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: and you know, teen to twenty years time, because you

431
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: really are looking at the long term of these assets.

432
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: So I just popped up Bob Dylan Royalties and Wall

433
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 1: Street into Google, and I magically came up with an

434
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: article that I had forgotten i'd written, but from two

435
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: thousand twelve, and the headline is gold Goldman rethinks Dylan

436
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: Royalties bond and the lead has a really bad um

437
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: music joke in it. But it's investors have thought twice

438
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: and decided it's not all right to take up an

439
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: unusual bond offering back by royalties from songs and by

440
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. So this was back in two thousand and twelve, Alistair.

441
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: What do you think changed between now and then to

442
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: make in Masters and Wall Street more comfortable with these

443
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: types of structures and deals. I think, in particular, as

444
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: we mentioned the sort of the state of the positive

445
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: growth in the recorded music industry, one area which is

446
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: sort of again in the details, is that, especially in

447
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: the publishing side, these realities are very heavily regulated and

448
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: they're actually prescribed by law how much you get paid

449
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: per stream or how much you get paid per radio play,

450
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: and those rates are actually being they get decided for

451
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: a five year period and they've been sort of moved

452
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: upwards in recent times. So there is a lot of

453
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: very confidence around that, and I guess, um, yes, it's

454
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: very much the state of the industry. And I guess

455
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: there's been some some early players in the game who

456
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: have really proven the success of this model, because I

457
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: think before, as you mentioned of the Bowie Bonds and

458
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: the bobbed In an example, was very much sort of

459
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: very esoteric, and there was always just sort of one

460
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: of them. But I think the number of players and

461
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: also the well the education around that the sets combined

462
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: of the positive industry has really got people a lot

463
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: more comfortable. And to be honest, I've got people wanting

464
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: to invest their time to understand all of the incasies

465
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: of these assets. So we don't what's your guests, I mean,

466
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: we don't actually know an official price tag I think

467
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: on the Bob Dylan catalog. We don't know if an

468
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: official price tag on the Shakia catalog. What do we

469
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: know about how much these are valued? What do people

470
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: say and what is your sense of how big this

471
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: business is right now? In total? What do we know

472
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: about dollars here? Sure? I think um in terms of

473
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: how they're valued that a multiple approach is often used

474
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: as a shorthand end. You've seen multiples go from five

475
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: years ago the range of ten to sixteen for publishing

476
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: to twenty plus, so I think the range has gone

477
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: up significantly. Um in terms of the overall market side

478
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: is you sort of have to make a distinction. So

479
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: you've got the major labels, which are very much have

480
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: big catalogs but also are in the game of new releases.

481
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: And then you've got the calog acquirers, which the major

482
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: labels referred to as chickbook publishing. And I think that

483
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: space is actually quite limited because here's only so many

484
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan's, He's only only so many Neil Young's, and

485
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: I don't think these caloggs. I don't think these many

486
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: calogs of you know, the report of three million dollar

487
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: price range. So I think it's sort of there is

488
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: a limitation to the size of the industry. I haven't

489
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: sort of done the over analysis myself, but I think

490
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: if you compare it to avorestic classes that it would

491
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: be a sort of a smaller niche. So, given the

492
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: evolution that you just described, music rights going up in

493
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: value by quite a lot, do you think that the

494
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: business case for streaming this idea that you know, music

495
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: might be worth more because we can all listen to

496
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: it on Spotify and platforms like that. Do you think

497
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: that's fully price into music rights now or do you

498
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: think there's further to go. I think that's being priced

499
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: in at the moment, and people are anticipating growth. Where

500
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: the number were the historical numbers back that up. So

501
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: continued growth from the streaming market and that you know,

502
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: a physical sorry, a catalog which Hays for example, is

503
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: streaming that in two or three years time, that's going

504
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: to go to sixty to eight percent. That streaming is

505
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: going to become the dominant form of revenue generation. So

506
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 1: I think that's what has been priced into these um

507
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: large acquisitions and these larger multiples, is that people are

508
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: you know, the large multiples represent large people's anticipated growth.

509
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: And I think that the theory is, you know, and

510
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: I think some people go early in the game, maybe

511
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: three or three or four years ago, I have seen

512
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: that they're paid to sixteen effectively with the revenue growing,

513
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: it's now via twelve times multiple. So I think at

514
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: the moment it's definitely being priced into the into the numbers. Well,

515
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: let me ask you, you know, as a consultant, Hey,

516
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: do you do work for both the seller musicians as

517
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: well as buyers and b what's the first thing so

518
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: someone says some bands is all right, alistair, we want

519
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: to sell our our catalog. What do you do? Tell

520
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: me how like you you begin your process and sort

521
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: of how you how you get to work? Sure, So

522
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: I work on both the buyer and sales side. So

523
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: I work with a lot of artists teams who are

524
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: looking to sell their catalogs and also do food party

525
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: work for acquirers. So it's useful obviously to see both

526
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: sides of that. And what I've seen from the last

527
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: my experience the last few years is a lot more

528
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: interests UM and a lot more bigger prices being paid UM.

529
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: The second part in terms of what you ask for

530
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: is yeah, the first question, UM, what what parts of

531
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: your kalog do you own? Which revenue streams do you have? UM?

532
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: Do you have your master's or get paid at royalty?

533
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: Do you do you write your own songs? Have you

534
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: got your publishing And the next sort of point to

535
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: go is to look into the the royalty statements that

536
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: each of those income streams UM pay pay the artist

537
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: and sort of aggregating that and getting a sense of

538
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: the overall annual income, what titles are generating income, what

539
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: source of income is at radio? Is it streaming? And

540
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: then I guess if you progress you go into the

541
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: fun time. We're looking into the contracts to double check

542
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: they actually own those rights and getting a sense of

543
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: as I mentioned before, what are they selling. Are they

544
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: selling the control of their catalog or they're selling a

545
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: pass of rights and what are they comfortable with losing

546
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: control over? Is there any prospect in your review of

547
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: a sort of um, someone has to be working on this,

548
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: But essentially retail ownership, either in the form of a

549
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: listed equity asset that perhaps held a bunch of these

550
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: or you know, there's all these platforms that I always

551
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: see advertised on Instagram. It's like buy a share of art,

552
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: or buy a share of a race car, buy a

553
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: share of a classic sneakers, is anyone doing buy your

554
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: share of Dylan's song catalog or anything like that? For

555
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: imagine a lot of like this could be a popular

556
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: retail class. Sure. So in the UK you've got both

557
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: Hypnosis and Rental who are publicly listed. Now, so that's

558
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: sort of um, I don't write that. Yeah, they're both

559
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: publicly listed, So that's and that's the first time that

560
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: I guess you've got a pure exposure to music catalogs

561
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: because you can buy shares in um Vindy, which owns

562
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: Universal Music. But again Universal Music is you know, in

563
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: the business of releasing new releases as well. UM. There's

564
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: also smaller platforms where called one called Ruyalty Exchange, where

565
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: you can buy and sell very small um, you know,

566
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: lessan a million dollar royalty rights. So there's there's an

567
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: emerging space, but it's one which is given the sort

568
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: of the complications around the legal understanding and the royalty details,

569
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: which is I think quite a tough break because it's

570
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: quite hard to um to make it very streamlined. But

571
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: on the public market's both hypnosis and round tour leaving

572
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: the charge, and I wouldn't be surprised to see in

573
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: a few more joining that camp. So is there anything

574
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: else I mean in terms of like what's next or

575
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: what you're watching for the industry, anything else we should

576
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: know about or pay attention to. UM, it's a good question. UM.

577
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: I think yeah that this is one thing which I

578
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: think the the I p O has been especially in

579
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: the UK. I'm not sure the specific reason. Maybe it's regaltory,

580
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: but there's I think definitely UM investors looking for an

581
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: exit apropate most of these UM One interesting elements of

582
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: the of the industry is who are the investors behind

583
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 1: these companies, And there's a lot of people have long

584
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: term money. Is a lot of pension funds, So for example,

585
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: the state Pension Fund of Michigan is has a founder

586
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: of a company called Concorde which brought the imagined Dragons catalogs.

587
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: So there's often quite surprising owners of these assets who

588
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: have those sort of long term that need for long

589
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: term yield and pinsion funds and sort of very long

590
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: term money is often what is behind these assets, and

591
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: I guess being predominantly a family office pinsion fund pe

592
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: sort of mark and I guess looking for the retail markets.

593
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: The next step one for I was gonna one thing

594
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I saw that you are a

595
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: fan of the Bakersfield Sound, and is very surprising who

596
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: are who who who ends up owning these assets? So

597
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: Will Haggard's some of his Masters is actually owned by

598
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: Hasbro effectively, really how did that happen? So they acquired

599
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: a company called Entertainment one UM recently which quite a

600
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: one of the label which had rights to that, so

601
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: effect to Lee Hasbro, you know, just Transformers owns Mill

602
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: Haggen Masters and actually the biggest sort of headliners. They

603
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: actually owned Defro Records, which is sort of two packing

604
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: sneep time. That's why I knew that was familiar with

605
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: Hasbrow and music, and I couldn't remember. I knew it

606
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: was like some really discordant thing that's hilarious. So they

607
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: own all the death Row records. They do, so it's um,

608
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: it's often quite interesting where those sets end up in

609
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 1: the sort of there's investors actually behind the company which

610
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: is investing in it. And I guess one thing with

611
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: my more sort of learning the financial market side of

612
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: it more recently is I think that, yes, my retail

613
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: market might be next, because it's always sort of been.

614
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: I have a really long term money p money or

615
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: sort of a very weird entertainment media slash company which

616
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: happens to have which happened to sort of buy a

617
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: catalog by buying by effectively you know, Hasboro trying to

618
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: buy Um, it's a pepper Peak and Records just part

619
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: of that deal. So it seems very pepper Peg and

620
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: death Row Records exactly. It's it's a great combo perfect well. Alistair,

621
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, and I've been

622
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, I've been following this for a while. So

623
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: great to get these questions answered. Yeah, Pivott, thanks so

624
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 1: much of your time. And as I mentioned, so before

625
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: we get twenty three capital ahead of me to the

626
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: finance space. So I found your podcast sery helpful to

627
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: sort of love who instant answer the market, and it's

628
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: sort of been been very helpful. Thank you so much,

629
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: Thanks Joe, Thanks Tracy, Thanks alast That was really interesting, Tracy.

630
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: I really feel like there's the retail the end, like

631
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: you know, the song exchange, Like it seems like an

632
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: obvious thing for people to just buy steaks and their artists.

633
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: You could even imagine like artists doing like a partial

634
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: spinoff like selling or something like that, because I just

635
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: feel like that's totally the thing these days, that like

636
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: someone would just like want to buy on their phone.

637
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: I think we should start a US equivalent of hypnosis

638
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: and then we should start the all blots back and

639
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: merge with it by it, you know, I know, we joke.

640
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: Would that be fun? I mean, it would be very fun.

641
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: You know what, um we joke about like it's totally

642
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: irrelevant to the question we just had, but just watching

643
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: the number of like people starting specs now, it's crazy,

644
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: like everyone we know, we're like the only people that

645
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: happened the amount of money people are make anyway. Well, also,

646
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: this wouldn't be the most unusual spack of the current

647
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: cycle by any means m even if we were focusing

648
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: on what was once considered an esoteric asset. But this

649
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: is also what's quite interesting about the conversation is again

650
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: like I'm looking at work from eight years ago, and

651
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: when people talk about music rights and music royalties, it

652
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: all comes up under the umbrella of esoteric abs. It's

653
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: supposed to be an unusual asset class that's getting bundled

654
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: and securitized, And now I think it sort of makes

655
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: a lot of sense, and it's becoming increasingly normal among

656
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 1: a certain subset of investors. And the other thing I've

657
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: been thinking quite a lot about is so much of

658
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: esoteric A b S is about valuing cash flows from

659
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: sort of intangibles, so things like the value of a

660
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: fast food franchise, UM, a catalog of movies and music,

661
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: as we've just been discussing, and you can kind of

662
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: see in a modern economy, I guess, where so much

663
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: of the economy is predicated on those sorts of intangibles.

664
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: That kind of makes a lot of sense, Like you

665
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: can see why that would be a growth category as

666
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: opposed to securitizing the cash flow from you know, like

667
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 1: a factory that's actually making things or a more traditional laundromat.

668
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, No, I mean it totally makes sense. And

669
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 1: it's like it's highly intuitive that intellectual property that can

670
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: be licensed, and especially licensed on platforms that can collect

671
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: very predictable data. Like it's you know, like it makes

672
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: sense to me why this asset class is sort of

673
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: this particular one anyway, has really been associated with the

674
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: rise of streaming, because you get that is the type

675
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: of transaction, that is the type of thing where you

676
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: can just sort of very easily translate a monthly check

677
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: or a quarterly check into something that could be diced

678
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: up and sold. Yeah, exactly. Do we leave it there? Yeah,

679
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: let's save it there. All right. This has been another

680
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You

681
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm

682
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: Joe Wisn'tal. You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart.

683
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: Follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson.

684
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesca Levi at Francesca Today,

685
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 1: and check out all of our podcasts unto the Handle

686
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: and Podcasts. Thanks for listening