WEBVTT - Marcus Garvey: Black Moses 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.880 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:19.479 and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and here's Jerry and 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:24.799 this is Stuff you Should Know. And over there the 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:33.479 ghost of Marcus Garvey. Yes, who if if you are say, um, 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.960 not black, and you or you are black and you 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.800 weren't raised to know your black history, you may still 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.280 be familiar with that name if you're even tangentially interested 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:49.000 in reggae music, because he pops up a lot. There's 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:53.120 a great Burning Spears song called Marcus Garvey that Sat 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:57.960 O'Connor covered. It's not it's not that good. Um. And 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.960 then there's also a great uh well he just not 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.319 only him, but also like his teachings pop up a 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.160 lot in in reggae, like in the Peter Tosh song African. 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.160 It's a hundred percent based on the ideas of Marcus Garvey, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:15.720 as we'll see. So that's fun to make sure. The Rastafarianism, yes, so, 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.280 as we'll talk about later, he's basically considered a profit 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.440 of Rastafarianism, like he basically has thought of among rastafari 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:29.920 as predicting the rise of Rastafarianism ten years before it happened, 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:34.280 so very prophetic. Um, And he did a lot of stuff, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:36.959 a huge amount of stuff. And in fact, Chuck what 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.119 I didn't realize because I've heard of him before, because 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:44.280 I do like Peter Tosh and Burning Spear, But Um, 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.880 I had no idea that you could put him up 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:53.840 as possibly the most impactful um black activists in in 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:59.440 world history. One. He's up there in the top three easily. Yeah. 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.800 I was reading essay by one professor that said when 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.760 he starts his his teachings on Garbi, he said he 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.160 tries to get the students attention by saying like this 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.400 man started a movement that was that dwarfed the civil 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.040 rights movement in number, and you know, students are like, 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.880 huh who and uh. You know, depending, he's a very 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.799 polarizing figure. So depending on who you talked to, I mean, 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.280 everyone will agree that he was a great orator and 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.919 rally or of people, But depending on who you talked 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.560 to that you might find both black and white historians 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.760 say that he was a P. T. Barnum esque Charlatan 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.200 uh and a bit pompous and full of himself. And 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.920 other people might say Uh, No, he was the real deal. 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.680 And he was a great leader of men and very 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.040 forward thinking progressive views on women at a time where 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.720 especially black women were not thought of as much beyond 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.239 you know, domestic workers. Right. I noticed that about him too. Yeah, 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.560 and he propped them up. And you know, he was 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.920 a teetotaler, he didn't believe in alcohol. He was he 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.679 was a lot of things. Yeah, I saw it put 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.640 very succinctively. He was complicated. He had a lot of 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.160 views that even if you agreed with his general outlook, 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.360 you probably view as abhorrent. Um. And you said he 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.480 was polarizing, He wasn't just polarizing between like the black 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.240 community and the white community in the in America, in 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.799 South America and the Caribbean and Africa. Um. He was 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.240 polarizing within the black community as well. He made enemies 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.560 out of a lot of people, including some really prominent 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:43.240 black thinkers and eventual civil rights leaders. UM. And one 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.480 of the reasons why, you know, if you're stepping back 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.480 as like a person living decades and decades after Marcus 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.800 Garvey lived, and there was this transition between you know, um, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:59.720 blacks under enslavement in America and then like black people 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:04.160 trained existing into you know, free citizens and having to 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.400 go through the Jim Crow gauntlet and eventually get to 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:11.640 civil rights living decades and decades after that. It's it's 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.480 really easy to see, you know, the black community in 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.680 America the turn of the last century or the last 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.039 last century year up to the twenties and thirties. Times 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.240 we're talking about as like this homogeneous group that all 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.560 basically subscribed and thought about the same things. But Marcus 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.920 Garvey is a really great instruction and the fact that 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.120 there's that that's just such a you can't paint any 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.920 one group of people with one brush, and Marcus Garvey 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.200 represents that, and that he was very conservative, um and 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.560 he represented a conservative way of thinking, you know, of 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.039 philosophy of how Black Americans could move forward in a 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.760 conservative way, and that put him at odds with like 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.360 progressive thinkers like W. B. Du Boys, who you know, 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.159 had different ideas for how black people could you know, 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.520 rise up and and um raise themselves in America as well. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.000 It's a it's good he there's just so much wrapped 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.080 up in his story that I think it's just gonna 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.320 be difficult to get it all into one episode. Yeah. 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.480 And you know, I guess we should say off the 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.799 bad that the main lightning rod in his his style 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.960 of radicalism and why he went up against a lot 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.600 of leaders in the black community was while they were 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.360 saying like, hey, we need to find a way to 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.960 to work within the politics of white America and we 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.640 need to have white America um assist us with these 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.200 things so we can pick ourselves up by the bootstraps, 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.919 he was saying, no, no, no, no no, Uh, we 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.880 should go back to Africa and we need our own 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.080 space and we shouldn't try to fit into white America 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.800 and white society. And this was a radical thing too. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.120 And we'll talk about all this in detail, but to 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.640 to do something like hey, I'd like to meet with 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.000 a leader of the Ku Klux Klan in Atlanta because 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.320 we have similar views on uh going back to Africa 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:00.920 and back to Africa movement, and that did not sit 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.000 well within a lot of people in the black community 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:07.080 for obvious reasons. But he was a radical thinker and uh, 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.480 just you know, every time I thought they should make 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.440 a movie about him, like we were always saying, I 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.599 finally found one where they are making a movie. Oh 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:16.840 that's good. Who's playing him? Do you know? I believe 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.240 it's the guy that was in Black Panther and Us. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.120 I can't remember his name. Oh, he'd be great, I 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.080 think he would. And uh because Garvey was a sort 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:32.400 of a a large fellow. And I think that it's 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.680 gonna focus on something we'll talk about later in the episode, 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:40.240 which were the years that, um, who is? Why am 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:47.240 I completely blanking on the worst American uh in history? Hoover? Okay, yeah, 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.440 jar Hoover, j Edgar Hoover's uh, you know, planting of 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.719 of spies within his own within his own organization. So 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.720 I think it focuses on those years that I can't 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.240 wait to see it because that was a pretty it's 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.520 a pretty insidious set of years for Marcus Garvey. For sure. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.080 Who are the worst American? He's one of them. For 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.320 he's up there, he's up there with Kissinger and I 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.720 could go on, but every time he uh, every time 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.160 we do which episode where Hoover pops up, it's just like, 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.960 and here's this awful thing he did. Yeah, I wish 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.040 we could just paddle him once in a while. Sure, 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.440 just bring him back in, give him a spanking. And 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.440 I know that's not cool. But we're talking about Jay 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.080 Grew Hoover here, Okay. Should we just start with sort 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.560 of the nuts and bolts of who he was and 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:37.560 where he was born and raised and all that good 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.960 stuff tots. He came from Jamaica, and he lived in 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.760 Jamaica while it was still under British colonial rule. It 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.960 was under colonial rule for three hundred seven years, and 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.480 he was born relatively towards the end of it, but 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.320 still full squarely in it. Um. And he was born 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.440 in Marcus Garvey Sr. Who was a Stonemason, and his mom, 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.600 Sarah Jane Richards, who was a household servant. He was 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.080 born in St. Anne's Bay, Jamaica, which sounds like an 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.560 idyllic place, uh in eighteen eighty seven. And um, although 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.360 he wasn't, you know, born to wealthy parents, he was 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.880 educated um at a colonial school, and he knew how 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.920 to read and he was kind of bitten by the 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.520 reading bug from a very early age and that helped 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.320 develop him starting pretty young. Yeah, and the fact that 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.600 he was Jamaican is one thing that uh turned a 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.640 lot of African Americans off. Like some of the African 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.280 American leaders would point out later in life. It's like this, 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.360 it was just Jamaican guy even, Like what does he 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.400 know about the American experience because it's not like he 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.000 moved to the United States when he was, you know, 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.480 five years old or something like that. Like he was 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.960 born and raised Jamaican, right, I don't think he moved 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.520 to the US until he was in his late twenties. Maybe, Yeah, 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.560 So that was sort of a h a bit of 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.120 a knock against him in the eyes of some African 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.160 American leaders at the time. But he was one of 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.120 many kids, but the only one who survived into adulthood 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.280 and moved to Kingston at fourteen, and he would get 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:09.960 a job in a print shop there, which is I 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.320 guess he learned the trade pretty well because this was 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.079 the kind of work that he did off and on 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.560 over the years to support himself, working in different print shops. 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.160 He always considered himself a journalist. I read and heways 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.280 started his own paper, yeah, many of them in magazines. 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.800 And um he was very sharp, dude, um, as demonstrated 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.360 by that first print shop job because he he started 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.160 out with no experience whatsoever and within two years he 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.559 was the foreman of the printing shop. So he was 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.480 a quick learner. UM. And at some point he decided 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.560 to start traveling abroad and UM and during some formative 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.800 years he ended up in in Costa Rica. UM because 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.240 apparently Costa Rica, Panama, these were places that people in 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.719 the America's kind of freely traveled to and moved to 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.559 and from what I can tell at the time, much 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:02.160 the same way that like Europeans move around the EU today. Yeah. 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:04.880 So he moved to Costa Rica. Yeah, he had at 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.080 least an uncle there, right, and he got a job 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.640 on a banana plantation as a timekeeper. UM. And while 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.600 he was carrying out this work like basically making sure 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.800 people were moving as fast as as possible to keep 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:24.000 everything nice and efficient, UM, he was witnessing and learning 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:27.160 at the same time that like these banana plantations owned 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.160 by American and European corporate interests were having a direct, 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:37.320 deeply negative impact on individual you know, Black Caribbean, West 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.880 Indian UM people's lives, Central American people's lives too. He 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.080 was in Costa Rica that he he just traced a 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.600 line directly between that. It was a very eye opening 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.080 experience and so we founded a paper uh there in 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.040 Costa Rica and started basically railing against the evils of 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.839 this stuff, and um made a pretty bad name for 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.720 himself among the authorities there quickly. And that's where his 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:01.439 uncle step down. I was like, you need to get 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.000 out of Costa Rica right now. Yeah, uh, and he did. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.760 He went to London, one of a few different times 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.959 he would live in London throughout his life, and this 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.760 was in nineteen twelve. I don't think we actually said 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.679 that he was born in eight seven, so I think 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.640 really frames where, you know, kind of the time period 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.560 that he was learning all this stuff. Uh. He studied 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.800 law and philosophy at Burbeck College under the University of 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.880 London and again started working for a newspaper there, and 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.320 this is where he started to sort of learn about 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:38.600 Pan Africanism a little bit more because the newspaper was 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.320 one that you know, just sort of championed that idea 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.320 and that is just sort of the notion of bringing 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:48.120 together people of African descent from all over the world 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.840 under one cultural identity. And that's you know, there's a 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:53.600 lot to it, but that's sort of a simplified way 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.560 to say it. Yeah, Like a lot of times you 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.760 hear it referred to as the African diaspora, Black Africans 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.600 who moved from Africa, who were forcibly removed from Africa 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:09.480 to become enslaved in the Caribbean, um in America, um 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.600 in Canada, even um and and that over time these 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.959 people just grew more and more separate. Pan Africanism was 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.000 an idea of bringing them back together at the very 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:25.680 least intellectually emotionally um as a as a nation among 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.559 other nations, but spread out or as Garvey would later, 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.480 really kind of take up this idea, like you were 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.400 saying earlier, of actually moving everybody back to Africa and 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.160 being like, Okay, Africa's black, you guys, Europe, America, you 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.720 guys can have your your white continents. This is the 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:45.080 Black continent, but we're co really ruling the world with you. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.920 That's just how it is. That was his ultimate dream, 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.560 and that that was kind of what pan Africanism envisioned 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.560 in in Garvey's eyes at least. Yeah, and that would 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.360 become sort of the basis of his entire movement as 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.240 as far as like just a cultural idea. Uh So, 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.360 then he goes back to Jamaica, he got married to 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:10.280 a woman named Amy Ashwood, it was a pretty rough marriage. 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.079 They were separated just after a few months, I think 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:18.640 in his mind, legally divorced a few years later, but 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.400 she always held onto the notion that they were never 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.559 like the The divorce was not legal, and so she 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.520 went to her grave saying that she was like the 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.920 true wife of Marcus Scarvey. But it got pretty ugly. 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.719 They accused one another infidelity. He accused her of being 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.280 an alcoholic and like I said, as a teetotal or, 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.679 it was something that he did not believe in at all. Um. 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.360 But you know, I think it says something about him 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.600 and his ideas that regardless of this sort of nasty divorce, 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.280 she stayed and worked h with his with his group 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:57.280 he founded along with her, the Universal Negro Improvement Association 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.680 and African Communities League of the World. But the Universal 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.079 Negro Improvement Association UNIA is the one that really stuck 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.520 and is even still around the day. And she stayed 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.559 and even as we'll see later, tried to protect him 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.439 when there was an attempt on his life taken. Yeah, 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.720 and probably did save his life from what I read 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.960 um by putting herself in between him and his assassin's bullets. 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.960 So yeah, She definitely did a lot of the early 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.720 work that he became very well known for, because once 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.920 he started to take off his his name and his ideas, 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:30.480 Garvy is um is what it's called, just shot off 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.320 like a rocket, and she was there for most of 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.560 the groundwork of it. And then they split up shortly 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:36.600 after that, so I could see how she'd be a 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.080 little bitter about that, and then in short order he 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:41.960 kind of gave her something else to be unhappy about, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.960 and that was he married Amy Jack's spelled like Jacques Um, 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:51.240 who was a Kingston native Um and was his personal 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:56.120 secretary but also was Amy Ashwood's close friend and maid 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:59.680 of honor at their wedding. Awkward, So I think that's 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.560 when reason why Amy Ashwood was a little upset about 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.440 the whole thing, in addition to doing a lot of 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.880 the groundwork that he later got, you know, so much 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.320 credit for and still does today. But um, he has 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.000 an Amy Jacques Amy Jack's Um marriage lasted I believe 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.760 until his death, correct until nineteen Yeah, I mean they 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.720 married a nineteen nineteen uh, And I didn't see anywhere 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:24.800 that they ever split up. No, I think that they did. 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.360 And they had two sons, Marcus Mosiah Garvey the third 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.400 and Julius Winston Garvey and Amy Amy Jacks was Um 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:33.960 was very accomplished in her own right. She came from 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.800 an aristocratic Kingston family. I think her father grandfather was 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.920 Mayor of Kingston, and um, she was very well educated, 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.240 very well read, very intelligent, and as we'll see, she 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.560 helped continue Marcus Garvey's work while he was otherwise occupied 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.200 for a while in the twenties. Yeah, and that, you know, 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.160 that led to a little bit of which is really 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:56.080 good documentary from PBS. PBS experience as are always really good. 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.720 And uh, apparently that caused a little bit of um 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.800 internal strife within UNIA was when they eventually found it. 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.520 I think it was pretty much their most popular newspaper, uh, 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.640 the Negro World. He had a page dedicated to women, 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.880 and she ran that page and uh she you know, 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.880 she ran it like somebody should run their own page 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.480 in the newspaper, and apparently caused a little bit of 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.880 strife within the organization because as much as he was 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.960 had these progressive ideas about women and uh you know, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.400 propping them up. Uh, not everyone at the time, even 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.840 within UNIA, had those same ideas. I think he tried 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.240 to sort of spread that message, but you know, there 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.240 were some there were some men in the organization still 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:41.880 they were a little bit like, who is this lady? 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:47.360 You know? Yeah, sure, good thing that's over and done with. Yeah, right, solved. 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:49.680 You want to take a break and then come back 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:58.560 and talk a little more about UNIA. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:16.080 Stuff you should know, stuff you should know, alright, Chuck. 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.280 So we're talking about UNIA, the United Negro Improvement Association, 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.679 which was the brainchild of Marcus Garvey and something he 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.720 attempted first in Kingston, I believe in nineteen sixteen something 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.560 like that, maybe nineteen fifteen, um, and it did not 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.399 quite take off. He had been inspired by Booker T. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.560 Washington's Tuskegee Institute, and in fact, he was kind of 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:44.560 like the intellectual and probably cultural air to book Or T. 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:49.920 Washington's ideas because Washington was a conservative. He believed in UM, 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:54.160 black self enterprise, black self sufficiency, in that black Americans 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.920 working UM hard and creating a life of their own 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:05.640 amidst white Americans would show white Americans that blacks weren't inferior. 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:07.840 They just wouldn't be able to ignore it anymore. And 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.600 then thus white Americans Black Americans would treat one another equally, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.760 and the the issue of you know, bringing Black America 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.040 out of enslavement and from under Jim Crow would be 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.919 solved once and for all. That was the very conservative 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.919 view of book or t. Washington, and that inspired Marcus 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.639 Garvey so much that he started corresponding with book or 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:33.679 t Um and he, uh, he was invited to America 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:37.720 by by Washington. Um, but he arrived about a year 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.159 after Washington died, never got to meet him, but he 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.480 was deeply inspired by him and in a lot of 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.040 ways carried on his work. Yeah, so he was a 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.720 little bit late. Uh, and you know, his intention was 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:51.560 definitely to meet with Washington, but it was you know, 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.960 this was nineteen sixteen when he moved to New York, 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.080 so it's not like it is today, like, uh, you know, 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:58.680 you can't just catch a flight up there real quick 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.960 if someone's not doing too well healthwise. So he missed 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.280 his opportunity there. But he had those same ideas and 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.800 he he basically you know, would ask himself and this 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.440 is a quote, where's the black man's government? And he 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.600 came to the conclusion that there was none. They had 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.520 no representation basically, and so he went on to say 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.120 I will help make them and that was his aim 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.119 with Unia UH And like he said, it did not 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.080 go over too well in Jamaica, but when he got 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.439 to the US, it really really started to spread pretty quickly. 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:36.199 I think the first uh US chapter was in nineteen seventeen. Uh. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.200 They only had seventeen members in a basement in Harlem, 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.399 but he would eventually go on to buy a building 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.960 in Harlem that hosted you know, like six thousand people 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.560 at a time, and at the peak of his movement, 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.240 he would claim that there were six million members. Uh. 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:53.800 You know, it's tough to give a direct count. People 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.080 in history say that he had a knack for just 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.720 sort of and this is the PiZZ Barnum side sort 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:02.080 of over inflating everything. So they say it probably wasn't 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.399 six million, but I definitely saw you know, it numbered 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.920 in the millions worldwide over the course of the movement. Yeah, 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.080 because to say that his message resonated with people is 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.440 the understatement of the year. He came along at a time, 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:19.439 he came to New York at a time where in 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:24.480 America there was a real um discord and unhappiness and 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:29.120 uneasiness going on with black Americans, a number of whom 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.880 who had just returned from fighting in World War One 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:38.520 for America, yes huge and like rightfully so, like they 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:43.960 served for their country, UM, and were rewarded with more 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:49.520 racism than than ever, including race riots and massacres at 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.399 the hands of um, you know, white neighbors who you know. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.800 We talked about the Tulsa massacre, UM, and plenty of others, 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.560 and in several of our episodes. This is the time 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:02.080 that this was going on. And so I think I 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.800 have the impression that black Americans were getting more despondent 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:10.720 after losing hope so suddenly and violently UM, and also 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.840 more upset at that idea. And so Marcus Garvey came 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.000 along also at a time where the scientific community was 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:18.960 saying like, oh, by the way, if you're black, you're 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:24.600 genetically uh, inferior to white people. Sorry, that's just science. Uh. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.159 And Marcus Garvey came along and said, you know what, 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.840 these people could not be wronger. But the one thing 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:33.040 about Garvey was, and this is what kind of separated 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:38.440 him from some of his peers that were highly educated 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.040 and sort of a little more of the UH like 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.520 the the initial back to Africa movement was started by 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.359 the first African American millionaire. So a lot of times 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:49.840 these people had money and they were sort of in 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.800 a higher financial class, but he really championed the working class. 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.080 That's where he came up. And his whole thing was, 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.520 you know, these the women that were working in domestics, 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:03.080 which his mother did, and I think that had big 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:07.879 impact on his views of progressive ideas toward women. But 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.680 then the men, you know, they were they were working classmen, 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.720 and he said that their official seal for union should 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.000 be a washtub, a frying pan, a bail hook, and 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.040 a mop. Right. So these these were the people he 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.640 was speaking to, yep so, and so ultimately he created 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:27.840 this this um idea, this concept that's referred to as 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:30.800 Garvy is um in it in a nutshell, is basically 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:36.480 taking America's um you know, faith in the ability to 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:42.160 succeed through hard work and enterprise and ingenuity and um 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.600 you know, self respect, and combined it with the yearning 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:50.520 of um black Americans, black Caribbeans, black Africans to be 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.879 treated as equals, to live free from oppression, and and 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.840 mix those two things together and that's what Garvey ISUM 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:01.000 was and and again it rang all over the world. 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.280 And um one of the ways that that it kind 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:08.399 of drew people in is he created almost like a 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:14.719 shadow culture in Harlem at the at Union where like 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:17.560 you would go to these meetings. He had like nightly meetings, right, 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:22.000 but they were also like you know, larger, bigger almost conferences. 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.600 And then there were huge conferences, but the smaller conferences 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:26.199 might be like a day long thing where like the 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.040 whole family comes and you have meals there and you 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.080 see like a vaudeville show there, and there's like a 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:34.240 fashion show and like that. You split off into like 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:38.560 breakout sessions to use horrific corporate buzz speak UM where 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:41.560 you would learn like a trade or maybe be like 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.920 drilled in military techniques, or you would um learn nursing 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.800 and then be sent off to aid in natural disasters, 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:51.919 Like you would learn stuff that the rest of society 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:54.560 had shut you out from. This is where you could 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.400 go learn it and you know, lift yourself up and 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:01.159 in turn lift the whole culture up as everyone collectively 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:03.919 was doing this. Yeah, it was. It's the idea was 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.600 really cool, I think, and that you wouldn't just go 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:09.080 to a meeting and while there were for short debates 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:13.200 and Marcus Garvey just speaking about things. Uh, I think 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.239 he wanted to make it more interesting and inclusive, and 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.000 that's why they would have concerts and fashion shows and 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:22.399 stuff like that. The Black Cross and Nurses was a 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:26.600 big part of this progressive idea for black women that 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.399 he had. And obviously it's with a lot of the 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:31.720 as you'll see the naming conventions for things he did. 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:34.520 It was a play on something that white people had done. 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:36.600 So they had the Red Cross. He started the Black 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:40.919 Cross Nurses and uh, they were a large organization that 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:43.520 did like so much good work and there was a 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:46.760 lot of pride within that movement of the Black Cross Nurses. 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:49.560 They had you know, their own slogans, they had their 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:52.120 own songs that they wrote. He had his fit very 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:56.560 famous phrase, up you Mighty Race, and it was you know, 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:58.240 I think he nailed it on the head. It wasn't 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:02.520 just um, it was a culture within a culture almost 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.119 like he was starting into the years that he was 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:07.720 doing this in nineteen twenties. I think just makes it 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:11.000 all that more impressive what he was able to do. Absolutely, 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:14.880 and another thing that he's credited with is if not UM. 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:16.720 I don't know if he invented it, but he certainly 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:21.960 popularized the what's called the Pan African flag. UM. Usually 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:27.399 it's a three bars or three stripes. Yeah, red, green, 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:30.560 and black. I love those colors together in high school 0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:34.040 and go by those stores. Something about the those colors 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:35.720 being together just like spoke to me. I was like, man, 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:38.440 that's really a nice color. Combo. You'd be like, could 0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:41.920 I pull it off? No, It's like I can't go there, 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:45.200 but it was. I just always liked those colors together, 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:49.879 always loved looking into those stores. UM. So with the 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:53.640 Pan African flag is also called the African Liberation flag UM, 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:55.960 and it's also the colors of Quanza that would later 0:25:56.000 --> 0:26:00.840 be founded in nineteen sixty six. UM. The red represented blood, UM, 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:04.440 the blood that was that united everybody of African ancestry, 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:10.480 but also blood that had been spilled through enslavement, war, colonization. UM. 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:14.320 The black represented Black people as a whole nation, and 0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:17.000 the green was for the natural wealth of Africa. And 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.280 that was a really big important point that I think 0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:24.320 UM Garvey tried to educate UM, Black Caribbeans, black Americans, 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:26.720 and even black Africans, but probably to a lesser extent 0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:29.560 about that was like, this is our homeland and it's 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:34.160 probably the most naturally wealthy continent on Earth, and we're 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:37.440 all being treated like second class human beings and yet 0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:40.399 this is our homeland. What are we doing here? Let's 0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:43.320 we have to right this wrong, basically, And I think 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:45.159 that was also like a big driver for why they 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:46.920 was saying we all need to go back to Africa 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:50.240 and basically just say thank you for caring for this land. 0:26:50.320 --> 0:26:56.120 It's ours again now. Uh. He authored the paper Declaration 0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:59.679 of Rights of the Negro Peoples of the World, which 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:04.640 was ratified with twenty thousand people in attendance at Madison 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:09.359 Square Garden in n which is an amazing accomplishment in 0:27:09.359 --> 0:27:12.800 and of itself. And this is where he was bestowed 0:27:13.119 --> 0:27:16.720 the title of Provisional President of Africa. And I don't 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:19.359 think we've said yet. One of the cool things about 0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:23.199 Marcus Scarfy was the way he would dress and he 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:27.400 would outfit himself in this sort of military regalia with 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:33.159 these uh hats with ostrich plumes, big ostrich plumes, and 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:35.959 he was a big guy, so it was you know, this, 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:39.359 this imposing figure comes in wearing this huge Ostrich plume 0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:42.399 Like this was a part of sort of the P. T. 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.600 Barnum side, which was to come into a room and 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:49.359 grab everyone's attention and to make a statement and you know, 0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:52.880 try and ignore me basically was what he put forward 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:56.679 with how he carried himself right, right, But at the 0:27:56.720 --> 0:27:59.800 same time it also made him really easy target of 0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:03.480 it a cool among his rivals in in UM, the 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:08.080 Black cultural leadership UM because I mean W B. D. 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:13.879 Boys wasn't wearing Ostrich blue and said it was an 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:16.640 embarrassment that he would dress up like that, But right 0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:18.919 he was. He was, he was rocking his style. He 0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:22.359 totally was, and I'm with you, I respect that style 0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:25.679 as well. UM. But again it did make him a target, 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:28.280 and so did things like being being named the provisional 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:32.560 President of Africa Unia Convention in Madison Square Gardens. These 0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:35.119 were things that like people could like pick on him for, 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:41.320 but he was his his idea was so strong because 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:47.000 it was appealing to While he was a polarizing figure, 0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:51.800 his ideas were unifying. They could take all different kinds 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:55.040 of um, you know, black concepts and black thoughts and 0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:58.680 black thinkers and black leaders and bring them all together 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:02.320 and basically say yes, despite our differences, we are all 0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:05.160 in agreement. We this is a great way to lift 0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:07.840 people up. We might not agree with going back to 0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:10.760 Africa or not, but like, yes, we can come together 0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:13.240 as a culture and lift ourselves up. That, like his 0:29:13.320 --> 0:29:17.080 ideas were unifying, while he himself was polarizing. Should we 0:29:17.080 --> 0:29:19.560 go ahead and talk a little bit about the origins 0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:21.960 of the back to Africa movement? Yeah, let's see that, 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:25.360 all right, So this goes back. He is not He's 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:27.920 far from the first person to have this idea. Uh. 0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:30.120 And like I mentioned earlier, one of the first people 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:34.200 was the first African American Millionaire's name was Paul Cuffey 0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:39.000 or Cuffey c Ufe. He was a mixed race, uh, 0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:43.960 Massachusetts sea captain and his father was an enslaved African, 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:48.560 and he had this idea that in in fact did so. 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:53.520 He actually returned at least several dozen African Americans to 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:56.600 Africa and to Sierra Leone. And this was an eighteen 0:29:56.640 --> 0:29:59.959 fifteen and then later and I think we should totally 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:03.800 do a whole podcast on Liberia because the more I 0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:06.440 read about it, just the more interesting it is. But 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:11.720 in eighteen sixteen, the American Colonization Society, which you know 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:15.160 Andrew Jackson and James Monroe were members. They worked with 0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:19.520 West African leaders to basically say less established this colony. 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:22.360 It would eventually be Liberia, and over the course of 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:26.600 about forty years, I saw anywhere from ten to twenty thousand, uh, 0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:30.840 free black Americans moved back to Africa, yes, and and 0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:35.920 lived in this new country that was granted to them, Liberia, 0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:40.040 And so like you could totally get you know, um, krusty, 0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:44.080 musty old racists like nineteenth century Andrew Jackson and his 0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:46.680 cronies being like, yeah, let's let's set up a country 0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:50.320 in Africa and send black people back there. Um. But 0:30:50.760 --> 0:30:53.080 this also appealed to like you said, I mean, twelve 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:56.480 thousand free black Americans said, I'm out of here. So 0:30:56.560 --> 0:31:00.680 there was definitely there was definitely Again, there was It's 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:03.520 so so strange to look at, but there was agreement 0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:07.480 between racist white people and some black people who are like, 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:10.840 we we just don't even want to be around you anymore. 0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:14.440 Let's just live separately. While there was also a very 0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:17.200 i would say much stronger thread uh in the black 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:21.280 community is like, um, I'm a tenth generation American. Even 0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:24.440 though a lot of those ancestors of mine were enslaved, 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:26.640 I was still born and raised in America, so are 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.280 my parents and my grandparents. I really don't have any 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:34.000 connection to Africa aside from my further back ancestors having 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:36.600 been enslaved there and brought over here. I don't really 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:39.080 have any interest in going back to Africa. Can I 0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:41.880 support the idea of rising up as a as a 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:45.320 black community, as a culture without having to go back 0:31:45.360 --> 0:31:49.000 to Africa? And Garvey was like, not really, No, we 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:52.200 need to go to Africa. The races should not be intermingled. 0:31:52.360 --> 0:31:55.600 And that makes him a very polarizing figure, not just 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:59.320 among the black community, among the white community as well. Yeah, 0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:02.240 and you know, I think Liberia definitely deserves its own 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:04.040 episode because I was reading into and it was just 0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:06.760 really interesting sort of the ups and downs and what 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:11.360 happens when you have uh, you know, twenty tho African 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:16.320 Americans moving to Africa with their cultural identity that's somewhat 0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:20.840 confused and and melding with the locals there, because it was, uh, 0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:23.520 it was just really interesting to see what happened over 0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:26.600 the years, like through the you know, mid two thousands 0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:30.120 in Liberia. So I'm gonna put that one on the list. Okay, 0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:34.160 it is officially on the list. On the list. You 0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:37.320 made the sound and everything I did. Should we take 0:32:37.360 --> 0:32:40.200 another break before we talk about, um, the Black Star 0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:44.200 Line and then some troubles. Yeah, things get really interesting 0:32:44.240 --> 0:33:00.360 here after the breaks, A stick around spoken. Should know 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:10.200 sh stuff you should know. All right, So you mentioned 0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:14.320 the Black Star Line, and if you're listening, you might think, 0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:18.560 doesn't Josh mean the White Star Line. No, he didn't, 0:33:18.840 --> 0:33:20.960 because this is the naming convention that I talked about. 0:33:20.960 --> 0:33:23.440 The White Star Lines was the I mean it was 0:33:23.480 --> 0:33:27.000 the Titanic, right was part of the White Star Lines. Uh. 0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:29.400 And so Garvey said, you know what, we need our 0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:31.760 own industry. We needed our own business, We need our 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:34.600 own shipping. We need to be able to get people 0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:37.120 to Africa. So I'm gonna start the Black Star Line 0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:41.480 in nineteen nineteen, which was the steamship shipping company to 0:33:41.640 --> 0:33:48.080 facilitate shipping goods around the African diaspora and to literally 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:53.440 transport I mean, the ideal was to transport Black Americans 0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:56.520 back to Africa. Um. Sadly, they never made it back 0:33:56.520 --> 0:34:00.680 to Africa on those ships. There are a host of problems, uh, 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.920 including the fact that the ships that he ended up 0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:07.959 buying were almost all in pretty bad state of repair, 0:34:08.080 --> 0:34:11.920 like former World War One ships. So you know he 0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:14.479 was he was working with the money that he had, 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:17.479 which he raised selling five dollar shares at a time 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:21.040 at meetings, uh, and then getting into trouble selling them 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:24.759 through the mail. Yeah. So with that five dollars share, 0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:26.960 that was a big deal because that was a low 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:31.000 enough price, about eighty one dollar money, thank you west 0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:36.880 Egg Um, that a working class black family could could 0:34:36.920 --> 0:34:39.800 afford to buy a share in the Black Star line, 0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:42.560 and they were buying a share in like this actual 0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:46.480 like enterprise that had the had the legs to knit 0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:51.160 black people around the world together economically and physically, like 0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:54.040 very everybody around and around and again, like you said, 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:58.719 ultimately help everyone move back to Africa. Um. But this 0:34:58.760 --> 0:35:01.280 was even at a time that, like the average weekly 0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:04.239 wage earned by the vast majority of Black Americans in 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:06.360 northern cities was less than five dollars a week. So 0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:08.960 it wasn't an easy five dollar or share to buy. 0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:11.680 But you can imagine how many families that were in 0:35:11.920 --> 0:35:15.000 unia Um that scraped together the money or saved up 0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:17.160 for it to buy a share in the Black Star Line. 0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:22.399 And nothing I've read seems like the Black Star Line 0:35:22.480 --> 0:35:25.200 was ever meant to be anything but what it was 0:35:25.280 --> 0:35:29.160 stated to be. It's just that things went south because 0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:32.719 one of the things Marcus Garvey wasn't by all accounts, 0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:36.280 is a shrewd businessman. He is not a biz whiz 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:39.400 by any stretch of the imagination, and that, from what 0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:43.640 I understand, is ultimately what brought along the Black Star 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.919 Lines downfall. Yeah, I mean there was mismanagement. I read 0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:49.840 one story where when they were doing some you know, 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:51.640 because they were trying to make money with this, like 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:55.120 you know, as a shipping company too, so where a 0:35:56.040 --> 0:36:00.279 huge shipment of coconuts had gone rotten. But as he 0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:04.080 insisted on making these sort of high profile political stops 0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:07.800 along the route, whereas the I guess the sea captains 0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:11.759 were saying, and these these were completely operated by African Americans, 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:16.040 captain and crewed by African Americans, and they were like, 0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:18.800 we need to you know, if you want these coconuts 0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:21.000 to be sold and to actually profit in this company, 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:23.200 we need to go straight there. And he insisted on 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:26.600 stopping at different places along the way and he would 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:28.719 you know, things like that would happen kind of time 0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.880 and time again. It seems like, uh and you know, 0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:34.000 like I said, these ships were in disrepair. The first 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:37.200 one he bought was the Yarmouth I think re christen 0:36:37.239 --> 0:36:40.160 the Frederick Douglas and it was a thirty year old ship. 0:36:40.680 --> 0:36:42.960 One was called the Shady Side. End buying two more. 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:46.440 It eventually sank from a leak because of storm damage 0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:50.239 from an ice storm. But you know, they had some successes. 0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:52.719 I think I saw in the end it ended up 0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:59.920 in in modern dollars, being like a twenty million dollar outfit. 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:03.640 It it just didn't succeed financially, but you know it, 0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:06.240 that's a that's a lot of dough. So it wasn't 0:37:06.239 --> 0:37:08.799 like something he went into lightly, you know, no, and 0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:10.640 it was I mean, it just goes to show you 0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:14.200 what an enormous enterprise it was that that that making 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:18.640 twenty million dollars couldn't even allow them to break even. UM. 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:22.120 In addition to the Black Star line, he also helped 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:27.960 found the Negro Factories Corporation UM, which created grocery stores, 0:37:28.160 --> 0:37:34.440 restaurant UM, Moving Vans, publishing house obviously UM and all 0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:37.800 sorts of other UM black owned businesses that not only 0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:42.080 were run directly from the Negro Factories Corporation, but also 0:37:42.360 --> 0:37:45.319 we're just affiliated with it. And so part of the 0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:48.400 trouble that that Marcus Garvey ran into was and that 0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:51.320 demonstrates he wasn't a very good businessman. He was shuffling 0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:54.360 money from one enterprise to another to keep them all afloat. 0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:57.080 And some were doing better than others from what I understand, 0:37:57.120 --> 0:37:59.480 like the grocery store was doing really well, but say 0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:02.479 the restaurant wasn't. So he had to um move money 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:04.200 from the grocery store of the restaurant and then maybe 0:38:04.200 --> 0:38:06.480 from the restaurant to the Black Star Line. And there 0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:10.279 was nothing that that was so monumentally successful it could 0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:14.279 keep everything else going. And so even knowing that like 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:19.080 the Black Star Line was in serious financial trouble, UM, 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:22.520 he he would stop on those coconut runs to to 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:24.560 try to sell shares. That's one of the reasons why 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:27.719 he was stopping was that you know, um rustle up 0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:32.000 membership in UNIA and membership in UNIA, subscriptions to the 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:36.320 Negro World UM and appearances by him. UM all also 0:38:36.640 --> 0:38:39.040 kind of came with pitches for buying shares in the 0:38:39.080 --> 0:38:42.200 Black Star line. And that's ultimately what got him in trouble. 0:38:42.239 --> 0:38:46.440 He was continuing to sell shares in an enterprise that um, 0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:50.040 he may or may not have thought was was in jeopardy. 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:52.239 And the FEDS, who have been trying to get him 0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:56.040 for years at this point, UM, finally said I think 0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:58.759 we can get him now. Yeah. What they got him 0:38:58.760 --> 0:39:02.440 for ultimately was male fraud. And what I saw was 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:05.759 it was specifically the fact that he was sending mailers 0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:11.719 for donations, or not donations, but investment opportunities, uh that 0:39:11.920 --> 0:39:17.319 featured ships that they did not yet own. So uh, 0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:19.560 there was one ship in particular that he was trying 0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:22.520 to buy, but the deal wasn't closed, but it was 0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:25.360 prominently featured. And they said, wait a minute, this is 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:29.640 mail fraud. You can't. You're misrepresenting the company essentially by 0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:32.000 having a ship on there that you don't have yet. 0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:36.800 And we've got you. And he ended up serving um 0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:39.719 how many years just a few? Right, He was sentenced 0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:42.840 to five, but I believe he served two, right, and 0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:46.799 his sentence was commuted and he was deported back to Jamaica. UM, 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:48.759 we're still gonna talk about other stuff. Before this, but 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:52.120 that's he ultimately ended up back in Jamaica. But when 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:54.480 you were just talking a second ago, I think one 0:39:54.520 --> 0:39:56.960 of the things that is pretty clear was that he 0:39:57.040 --> 0:39:59.359 was a He wasn't the best of businessman, but he 0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:04.280 was also a victim of over being overly ambitious because 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:06.520 he had health problems through his whole life. He had 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:10.880 pneumonia quite a few times, and I think he had asthma, 0:40:11.000 --> 0:40:13.839 and I think he'd had a feeling maybe that he 0:40:13.920 --> 0:40:17.120 was not long for this world. So that's why he said, 0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:20.160 let's start theaters, and let's start grocery stores, and let's 0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:22.960 start restaurants, and let's start a shipping line. I think 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:24.839 he was overly ambitious and tried to move a little 0:40:24.840 --> 0:40:28.000 too fast maybe, whereas if he might have slowed down 0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:32.040 and put his efforts uh into fewer things, it might 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:34.399 have been a little bit more successful. Yeah, But also 0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:37.160 imagine being like, Okay, we really need to make up 0:40:37.200 --> 0:40:40.440 for lost time, you know, and then feeling like your 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:45.080 time on earth was was going to be shortened. I mean, yeah, 0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:47.839 I know, not at all, but so he um he 0:40:47.880 --> 0:40:51.239 did his time in Atlanta, Federal penn which is at 0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:54.640 the end of Grant Park now, UM, which is one 0:40:54.640 --> 0:40:59.480 of the scariest buildings you can never drive past. UM. 0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:02.120 And like he said, he thought his time in this 0:41:02.160 --> 0:41:04.600 world was gonna be fairly short. And he actually wrote 0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:08.680 a letter from prison saying that you know, um, he 0:41:08.800 --> 0:41:11.919 basically expected to die in prison and if he did die, 0:41:11.960 --> 0:41:14.279 then he was going to come back. He said, look 0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:16.719 for me in the whirlwind. He's gonna bring with him 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:20.319 the souls of all the dead Africans who died enslaved 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:25.279 um and uh, basically right, all the wrongs, if you 0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:29.000 know what I mean. The documentary by the way, yeah, 0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:31.839 I like our title more Black Moses. I think that's 0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:36.400 such an amazing name for him, So awesome. But um, 0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:38.920 so he he didn't die in prison. He got out, 0:41:38.960 --> 0:41:42.680 like you said. Calvin Coolidge, under tremendous pressure from Union 0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:48.359 UM members and his wife Amy Jacks Uh, finally said okay, fine, 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:50.440 he can come out, but he's going to Jamaica. And 0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:52.920 that's where he went. And when he went to prison, 0:41:52.960 --> 0:41:54.719 I mean, that was just not a good look. Like 0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:59.640 this guy who was leading the movement to prop up 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:05.120 and raise up the black community going to prison, Um, 0:42:05.480 --> 0:42:08.080 it just made him any even easier target, not just 0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:11.440 among the black community, but also among like white observers 0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:13.839 now to like, look, he went to jail, like, this 0:42:13.920 --> 0:42:15.840 is your this is your leader. Come on, give me 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:20.040 a break. But we haven't really kind of explained it enough. 0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:22.839 And and there's a whole other podcast we could do 0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:26.239 just on this, but suffice to say he was very 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:29.879 much the victim of government harassment, again at the hands 0:42:29.920 --> 0:42:33.400 of Jay Hoover, who somebody said once that he became 0:42:33.440 --> 0:42:36.480 so fixated on Garvy it became basically a vendetta. He 0:42:36.560 --> 0:42:39.040 just wanted to get rid of Marcus Garvey and tried 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:42.680 for years to do it, and the government sabotaged Black 0:42:42.719 --> 0:42:46.680 Star line fuel um fuel supplies so the ships would 0:42:46.680 --> 0:42:50.080 would break down. Um, Like, he was harassed. He he 0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:53.800 had like every reason to feel persecuted, and then finally 0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:59.040 put in prison on a pretty weak charge to begin with, 0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:02.400 because of his ideas and because he represented a threat 0:43:02.840 --> 0:43:07.239 to you know, white dominance in America and elsewhere. Yeah, 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:10.120 in nineteen nineteen, Hoover hired And by the way, I 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.080 thought you were going to quote me a second ago 0:43:12.719 --> 0:43:15.120 when he said someone once said about Hoover, I thought 0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:18.719 you canna say that he was the worst American. That 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:22.480 would have been the most boss referential joke you've ever 0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:26.520 pulled off. Uh So, in nineteen nineteen, Hoover hired the 0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:31.480 bureau's first black agent, James Wormley Jones. And you might think, oh, great, 0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:34.879 he's being progressive. No, no, no. He hired him specifically 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:39.920 to be a mole and infiltrate Garvey's movement. And I 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:42.480 think he was the one that actually poisoned the fuel lines. 0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:46.040 And he had other UH moles that he would install 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:50.319 within the organization. And it wasn't just um, I mean, 0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:52.120 it's bad enough if you're doing that just to keep 0:43:52.160 --> 0:43:54.759 tabs and report back, but he sent people in there 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:59.280 to agitate and to cause disruption. And I remember reading 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:02.960 one story where there was something about letters being sent 0:44:03.040 --> 0:44:09.640 back and forth between different Union UH offices in different cities, 0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:12.960 like pretty far apart, and that they were agitating one 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:15.719 another and with these letters, and it turned out that 0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:19.000 none they were all written by Hoover or you know, 0:44:19.040 --> 0:44:22.160 Hoover's cronies. Yeah, that's a playbook that little Putts would 0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:24.080 be using for decades to come. He did that to 0:44:24.120 --> 0:44:26.000 the Black Panthers. He tried to do it to the 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:29.239 civil rights leaders, like, yeah, that was he would just 0:44:29.400 --> 0:44:31.440 he wouldn't put moles in just to like listen and 0:44:31.520 --> 0:44:34.359 report back. He was like he put them in there 0:44:34.360 --> 0:44:39.600 to destroy them from within, which is just you know, reprehensible, man, 0:44:39.680 --> 0:44:43.040 what a snake. Yeah, and also don't write in I 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:45.319 know what the word putts means and I meant it 0:44:45.440 --> 0:44:50.640 with Jay. Uh, we should mention them attempt on his 0:44:50.719 --> 0:44:53.759 life that we kind of referenced earlier. Uh, this was 0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:58.160 back in nineteen nineteen and October. Uh, he had by 0:44:58.200 --> 0:45:00.920 this time, this was kind of I guess hooever was 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:03.200 sort of already getting involved. But the New York d 0:45:03.360 --> 0:45:08.520 A Edwin Edwin Kay, I'm sorry, Edwin P. Kilroe started 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:12.960 investigating UNI at first. In October of nineteen nineteen, a 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:17.040 man named George Tyler showed up basically kicked in the 0:45:17.080 --> 0:45:20.799 door downstairs and demanded to speak with Garvey. Garby came 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:22.720 out and see what was going on. He opened fire. 0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:26.160 H you mentioned that Amy Ashwood got between him and 0:45:26.160 --> 0:45:29.279 the bullets. But Garvey was hit three times, I think, 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:33.040 once in the scalp and twice in the legs. And 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:35.920 the rumor was, uh, and this is you know, I 0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:38.799 think what Garvey believed was that Tyler was sent by 0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:42.080 the d A. That was never proven. There were also 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:44.759 people that said, no, this was a guy who was 0:45:45.440 --> 0:45:49.279 had restaurant dealings with him that was angry about how 0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:51.879 that business went down. So I don't think we'll ever 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:55.800 know for sure what happened. But there wasn't an assassination attempt. 0:45:56.440 --> 0:46:00.279 So um, like I was saying before, when he when 0:46:00.320 --> 0:46:02.880 he went to prison, like, it was not it was 0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:05.880 not a proud day for UNIA, and union membership started 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:10.680 to drop off fairly precipitously. Amy Jackson's wife was trying 0:46:10.719 --> 0:46:14.200 to keep things going, publishing his letters, like giving speeches 0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:16.719 on his behalf lobby and Calvin Coolidge to let him 0:46:16.719 --> 0:46:21.120 out of prison. Um, but it's just like the the 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:23.440 death blow was kind of struck. Although that's not to 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:27.160 say there's still UNIA today and Marcus Garvey's views and 0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:29.239 Garvey is um and a lot of his teachings and 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.640 writings and thoughts are still very much espoused and followed 0:46:34.440 --> 0:46:37.160 right and and not just in the reggae world. But 0:46:37.480 --> 0:46:42.120 um he he uh basically spent the rest of his life, 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.319 and his life was relatively short. He died at age 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:47.960 fifty two. In he moved back to Jamaica, where he 0:46:48.000 --> 0:46:51.040 was deported, he decided to move back to London. I 0:46:51.080 --> 0:46:53.360 could not find what kind of connection he had to 0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:56.440 London to live there twice. Um, but that's where he 0:46:56.600 --> 0:46:59.400 lived out the rest of his days, and because he 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:02.920 schooled there maybe, but he well, no I knew he 0:47:02.960 --> 0:47:05.000 had an actual connection to London. I meant, like on 0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:07.560 a an emotional level, like what drew him back to 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:10.759 London a second time? But um, but he died there, 0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:13.839 and he died just kind of like um, a bit 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:17.040 of an outcast. And one of the things that really 0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:20.400 didn't help, you know, he was kind of losing a 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.320 lot of followers and adherents because he went to prison 0:47:23.400 --> 0:47:26.680 and then later on he he um, he criticized Holla 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:30.879 Selassie after he was deposed by Mussolini, and he also 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:34.239 looked up to Mussolini for being a strong authoritarian leader. 0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:37.000 But the thing that really kind of like sealed his 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:41.480 fate among um, the black cultural leaders is what you 0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:45.279 mentioned earlier, the bonkers meeting between him and the leader 0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:49.919 of the KKK, Right, Yeah, I mean, uh talk about 0:47:49.920 --> 0:47:53.080 a radical idea um for him just to sit down 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:56.279 with a leader of the clan in Atlanta and in 0:47:56.400 --> 0:48:00.839 exchange views of agreement on the fact that they each 0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:05.600 thought that black Americans should that belonged in Africa. To 0:48:05.640 --> 0:48:08.520 say that did not sit well within the leaders of 0:48:08.560 --> 0:48:11.400 the black community is is a pretty big understatement. Yeah, 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:13.600 so that was I mean, that was the probably the 0:48:13.640 --> 0:48:17.319 biggest thing of of Marcus Garvey's downfall. But you know, 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:20.080 because of that, his his image like really kind of 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:24.439 he he died as an outcast in London, um and 0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:28.840 he um he Over the years though like he was, 0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:32.120 he seems to have been first picked up and rehabilitated 0:48:32.120 --> 0:48:36.200 by the Rastafarians who said, like, hey, no, this guy, 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:39.200 this guy had some amazing ideas. This guy was speaking truth, 0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:41.799 like his his teachings were important, and they kind of 0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:45.799 picked up his um, his his image and dusted him 0:48:45.840 --> 0:48:48.480 off and rehabilitated him. And people have kind of taken 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:50.680 like a closer look at him again and been like, yes, 0:48:50.760 --> 0:48:53.880 this guy was one of the most important black activists 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:56.719 in the history of the world. Yeah, I saw. I 0:48:56.719 --> 0:48:59.520 think in the PBS documentary they put it like this 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:04.480 that uh in the early nineteen hundreds provided a template 0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:08.240 for everybody that came after basically whether it was Malcolm 0:49:08.360 --> 0:49:13.480 X or Martin Luther King Jr. Uh, the Rastafarianism, the 0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:16.840 Nation of Islam, Like, there were so many organizations and 0:49:16.880 --> 0:49:21.080 people that sort of used his life and his uh 0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:25.960 cultural ideas as that template that um, it's it's it's 0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:28.480 hard to believe that this is something. And we say 0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:31.120 this all the time, of course, especially about black history. 0:49:31.160 --> 0:49:35.280 But I don't think I ever heard the words Marcus 0:49:35.320 --> 0:49:38.880 Garvey in a high school or college history class, not 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:44.160 unless Peter Tosh was teaching. Oh man, I miss uh. 0:49:44.400 --> 0:49:46.920 We had this great radio station called album ADI eight Atlanta, 0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:50.719 the George State radio station that every Sunday morning they had, uh, 0:49:51.640 --> 0:49:54.680 like the best reggae show ever. Uh. And it wasn't 0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:57.120 you know, they weren't like, let's play Redemption song by 0:49:57.120 --> 0:50:00.279 Bob Marlin. Great song, but it's where you it here 0:50:00.400 --> 0:50:03.880 got all the early uh, all the early ska and 0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:07.160 like Lee Perry and the Upsiders. Man, it's so good. 0:50:07.200 --> 0:50:10.880 And now when we go to the lake on Sunday mornings, 0:50:10.960 --> 0:50:13.920 we just dial up a good like fifties and sixties 0:50:13.920 --> 0:50:17.799 ska playlist in honor of what what once was at 0:50:17.800 --> 0:50:19.920 Georgia State. I think you can still stream it online, 0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:22.400 but it was a big deal with they shut it 0:50:22.440 --> 0:50:25.279 down basically and said, let's have two NPR stations in 0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:28.080 Atlanta the exact same thing at the same time. It 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:31.319 was a terrible, terrible decision that I hope one day 0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:34.399 they reversed because I hope maybe eight was so good. 0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:36.919 That was the more fire show. By the way, yeah, 0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:39.279 and that boy that just openised to so much good 0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:42.560 reggae win I was in college and there was a 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:45.319 lot of bad reggae, and then there was like that 0:50:45.440 --> 0:50:48.239 was Saturday, I guess you said. That was Saturday around noon, 0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:50.440 and before that, in the mornings they would have a 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:54.320 Saturday Morning cartoon music show where they play like Strawberry 0:50:54.360 --> 0:50:58.480 Shortcake songs and like just like the most random stuff 0:50:58.520 --> 0:51:00.080 that they would get off the kids records. But it 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:02.879 was great. And then the night before that, I don't 0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:06.920 know if you remember Adam Bomb, remember, yes, like the 0:51:07.040 --> 0:51:10.640 soul like, oh my goodness, that like album Adia eight 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:13.520 had it going on that dash that was like trance 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:17.560 and all that, and then uh, the relent in the 0:51:17.640 --> 0:51:19.680 years was sort of you know for the old white folks. 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:21.799 I don't remember that it was. It was really good 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:25.040 deep cuts of of classic rock, so that it's not 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:28.080 like here's Boston's more than a feeling. It's like, here's uh, 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:31.759 this deep cut from Steven Still's second solo album, right exactly. Yeah, 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:33.840 that was that was album A D eight man Man 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:36.880 r I P album R I P. Dare we do 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:40.680 one on Rastafarianism at some point, absolutely, because then my 0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:42.799 list it's just it's a tough one. I think, Yeah, 0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:45.080 I think so too. But with it, I mean, it's 0:51:45.120 --> 0:51:47.480 sufficed to say that Marcus Garvey was a prophet of 0:51:47.560 --> 0:51:51.600 Rastafarianism because he predicted the rise of Hollia Selassie, who 0:51:51.640 --> 0:51:55.279 became the god of Rastafarianism. And we'll talk more about 0:51:55.280 --> 0:51:57.560 that in a different map. How about that, it's good stuff. 0:51:57.560 --> 0:52:00.960 I look forward. I believe it's Amazon is making the 0:52:01.000 --> 0:52:05.160 Marcus Garvey movie, but definitely see if you can find 0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:10.680 the PBS experience American experience. I think it is on 0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:13.279 Marcus Garvey. It's good stuff. And the guy who's gonna 0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:16.040 play Marcus Garvey that was Winston Duke, You're right, the 0:52:16.120 --> 0:52:20.480 dude from US. Yeah, and Black Panther too. Um well, 0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:22.440 if you want to know more about Winston Duke, go 0:52:22.520 --> 0:52:24.360 check him out on IMDb. But if you want to 0:52:24.400 --> 0:52:27.759 know more about Marcus Garvey, um, yeah, like you said, 0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:30.799 check out the American Experience on him. But there's so 0:52:30.880 --> 0:52:34.680 much stuff in great articles and interesting scholarship to read 0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:37.640 about Marcus Garvey and his legacy. So go check it 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:41.160 out because it's pretty interesting. And since I said that 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:46.279 it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call this short 0:52:46.280 --> 0:52:48.480 and sweet because this was a longer episode. So this 0:52:48.760 --> 0:52:52.799 is perfect. Uh. When we did the episode on the 0:52:52.880 --> 0:52:56.480 church Choir that didn't explode, we felt bad because we 0:52:56.520 --> 0:53:01.280 could not find Reverend Kimple's wife's first name. And wouldn't 0:53:01.280 --> 0:53:03.799 you know it, the stuff you should know, Army comes 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:06.760 through for us. Hey, guys, love the show. Been listening 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:08.680 for years. I heard the episode on the church Choir 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:11.000 that didn't explode, and you said you couldn't find Reverend 0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:13.560 Kimple's wife in her first name, And I was excited 0:53:13.880 --> 0:53:17.480 because I knew that the nineteen fifty census had just 0:53:17.560 --> 0:53:21.440 been released on April one, So I guess in our defense, 0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:25.839 we recorded that before people first, right. Absolutely, I went 0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:28.640 and searched and they were listed in the census. Walter's 0:53:28.640 --> 0:53:32.840 wife's name. Can we get a drum roll here is 0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:37.600 Eunice Jay Climpole. We probably could a guest in the 0:53:37.680 --> 0:53:41.360 nineteen fifties. Units was probably a top five name, uh 0:53:41.400 --> 0:53:46.799 for Evelyn in in uh in Beatrice, Nebraska, for sure. Yeah, 0:53:46.840 --> 0:53:49.360 I'm pretty sure it's them right county and right profession 0:53:50.080 --> 0:53:53.040 and the only Walter Climpole. Yeah, I mean Climpole with 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:55.520 without an e L. It's got to be it. Keep 0:53:55.560 --> 0:53:57.000 up with a good work. And that was from a 0:53:57.000 --> 0:53:59.839 couple of people in it. But this was from Sue. 0:54:00.440 --> 0:54:02.319 Thanks a lot, Sue. Yeah, I did notice a couple 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:04.759 of people wrote in, so it's pretty sharp. The n 0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:08.400 censes just come out, and Sue sat bolt upright in 0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:11.600 bed and said, I gotta look. Thanks, And that makes you, 0:54:11.840 --> 0:54:17.480 uh an official research assistant. Right, So if you want 0:54:17.520 --> 0:54:20.400 to be like Sue and send us some unpaid research 0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:25.080 where we'd love that, that'd be great, especially if it's accurate. Um, 0:54:25.120 --> 0:54:27.200 you can put it in an email and send it 0:54:27.239 --> 0:54:34.040 off to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff 0:54:34.040 --> 0:54:36.640 you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For 0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:39.680 more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 0:54:39.920 --> 0:54:42.800 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.