1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and here's Jerry and 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: this is Stuff you Should Know. And over there the 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: ghost of Marcus Garvey. Yes, who if if you are say, um, 6 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: not black, and you or you are black and you 7 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: weren't raised to know your black history, you may still 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: be familiar with that name if you're even tangentially interested 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: in reggae music, because he pops up a lot. There's 10 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: a great Burning Spears song called Marcus Garvey that Sat 11 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: O'Connor covered. It's not it's not that good. Um. And 12 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: then there's also a great uh well he just not 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: only him, but also like his teachings pop up a 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: lot in in reggae, like in the Peter Tosh song African. 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: It's a hundred percent based on the ideas of Marcus Garvey, 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: as we'll see. So that's fun to make sure. The Rastafarianism, yes, so, 17 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: as we'll talk about later, he's basically considered a profit 18 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: of Rastafarianism, like he basically has thought of among rastafari 19 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: as predicting the rise of Rastafarianism ten years before it happened, 20 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: so very prophetic. Um, And he did a lot of stuff, 21 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: a huge amount of stuff. And in fact, Chuck what 22 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: I didn't realize because I've heard of him before, because 23 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: I do like Peter Tosh and Burning Spear, But Um, 24 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: I had no idea that you could put him up 25 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: as possibly the most impactful um black activists in in 26 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: world history. One. He's up there in the top three easily. Yeah. 27 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: I was reading essay by one professor that said when 28 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: he starts his his teachings on Garbi, he said he 29 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: tries to get the students attention by saying like this 30 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: man started a movement that was that dwarfed the civil 31 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: rights movement in number, and you know, students are like, 32 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: huh who and uh. You know, depending, he's a very 33 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: polarizing figure. So depending on who you talked to, I mean, 34 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: everyone will agree that he was a great orator and 35 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: rally or of people, But depending on who you talked 36 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: to that you might find both black and white historians 37 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: say that he was a P. T. Barnum esque Charlatan 38 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: uh and a bit pompous and full of himself. And 39 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: other people might say Uh, No, he was the real deal. 40 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: And he was a great leader of men and very 41 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: forward thinking progressive views on women at a time where 42 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: especially black women were not thought of as much beyond 43 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: you know, domestic workers. Right. I noticed that about him too. Yeah, 44 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: and he propped them up. And you know, he was 45 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: a teetotaler, he didn't believe in alcohol. He was he 46 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 1: was a lot of things. Yeah, I saw it put 47 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: very succinctively. He was complicated. He had a lot of 48 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: views that even if you agreed with his general outlook, 49 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: you probably view as abhorrent. Um. And you said he 50 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: was polarizing, He wasn't just polarizing between like the black 51 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: community and the white community in the in America, in 52 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: South America and the Caribbean and Africa. Um. He was 53 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: polarizing within the black community as well. He made enemies 54 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: out of a lot of people, including some really prominent 55 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: black thinkers and eventual civil rights leaders. UM. And one 56 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: of the reasons why, you know, if you're stepping back 57 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: as like a person living decades and decades after Marcus 58 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: Garvey lived, and there was this transition between you know, um, 59 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: blacks under enslavement in America and then like black people 60 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: trained existing into you know, free citizens and having to 61 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: go through the Jim Crow gauntlet and eventually get to 62 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: civil rights living decades and decades after that. It's it's 63 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: really easy to see, you know, the black community in 64 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: America the turn of the last century or the last 65 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: last century year up to the twenties and thirties. Times 66 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about as like this homogeneous group that all 67 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: basically subscribed and thought about the same things. But Marcus 68 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: Garvey is a really great instruction and the fact that 69 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: there's that that's just such a you can't paint any 70 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: one group of people with one brush, and Marcus Garvey 71 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: represents that, and that he was very conservative, um and 72 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: he represented a conservative way of thinking, you know, of 73 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: philosophy of how Black Americans could move forward in a 74 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: conservative way, and that put him at odds with like 75 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: progressive thinkers like W. B. Du Boys, who you know, 76 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: had different ideas for how black people could you know, 77 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: rise up and and um raise themselves in America as well. 78 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: It's a it's good he there's just so much wrapped 79 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: up in his story that I think it's just gonna 80 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: be difficult to get it all into one episode. Yeah. 81 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I guess we should say off the 82 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: bad that the main lightning rod in his his style 83 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: of radicalism and why he went up against a lot 84 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: of leaders in the black community was while they were 85 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: saying like, hey, we need to find a way to 86 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: to work within the politics of white America and we 87 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: need to have white America um assist us with these 88 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: things so we can pick ourselves up by the bootstraps, 89 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: he was saying, no, no, no, no no, Uh, we 90 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: should go back to Africa and we need our own 91 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: space and we shouldn't try to fit into white America 92 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: and white society. And this was a radical thing too. 93 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: And we'll talk about all this in detail, but to 94 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: to do something like hey, I'd like to meet with 95 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: a leader of the Ku Klux Klan in Atlanta because 96 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: we have similar views on uh going back to Africa 97 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: and back to Africa movement, and that did not sit 98 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: well within a lot of people in the black community 99 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: for obvious reasons. But he was a radical thinker and uh, 100 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: just you know, every time I thought they should make 101 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: a movie about him, like we were always saying, I 102 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: finally found one where they are making a movie. Oh 103 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: that's good. Who's playing him? Do you know? I believe 104 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: it's the guy that was in Black Panther and Us. 105 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: I can't remember his name. Oh, he'd be great, I 106 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: think he would. And uh because Garvey was a sort 107 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: of a a large fellow. And I think that it's 108 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: gonna focus on something we'll talk about later in the episode, 109 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: which were the years that, um, who is? Why am 110 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: I completely blanking on the worst American uh in history? Hoover? Okay, yeah, 111 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: jar Hoover, j Edgar Hoover's uh, you know, planting of 112 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: of spies within his own within his own organization. So 113 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: I think it focuses on those years that I can't 114 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: wait to see it because that was a pretty it's 115 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: a pretty insidious set of years for Marcus Garvey. For sure. 116 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: Who are the worst American? He's one of them. For 117 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: he's up there, he's up there with Kissinger and I 118 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: could go on, but every time he uh, every time 119 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: we do which episode where Hoover pops up, it's just like, 120 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: and here's this awful thing he did. Yeah, I wish 121 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: we could just paddle him once in a while. Sure, 122 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: just bring him back in, give him a spanking. And 123 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: I know that's not cool. But we're talking about Jay 124 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: Grew Hoover here, Okay. Should we just start with sort 125 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: of the nuts and bolts of who he was and 126 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: where he was born and raised and all that good 127 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: stuff tots. He came from Jamaica, and he lived in 128 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: Jamaica while it was still under British colonial rule. It 129 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: was under colonial rule for three hundred seven years, and 130 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: he was born relatively towards the end of it, but 131 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: still full squarely in it. Um. And he was born 132 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: in Marcus Garvey Sr. Who was a Stonemason, and his mom, 133 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: Sarah Jane Richards, who was a household servant. He was 134 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: born in St. Anne's Bay, Jamaica, which sounds like an 135 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: idyllic place, uh in eighteen eighty seven. And um, although 136 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: he wasn't, you know, born to wealthy parents, he was 137 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: educated um at a colonial school, and he knew how 138 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: to read and he was kind of bitten by the 139 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: reading bug from a very early age and that helped 140 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: develop him starting pretty young. Yeah, and the fact that 141 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: he was Jamaican is one thing that uh turned a 142 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: lot of African Americans off. Like some of the African 143 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: American leaders would point out later in life. It's like this, 144 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: it was just Jamaican guy even, Like what does he 145 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: know about the American experience because it's not like he 146 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: moved to the United States when he was, you know, 147 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: five years old or something like that. Like he was 148 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: born and raised Jamaican, right, I don't think he moved 149 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: to the US until he was in his late twenties. Maybe, Yeah, 150 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: So that was sort of a h a bit of 151 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: a knock against him in the eyes of some African 152 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: American leaders at the time. But he was one of 153 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: many kids, but the only one who survived into adulthood 154 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: and moved to Kingston at fourteen, and he would get 155 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: a job in a print shop there, which is I 156 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: guess he learned the trade pretty well because this was 157 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: the kind of work that he did off and on 158 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: over the years to support himself, working in different print shops. 159 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: He always considered himself a journalist. I read and heways 160 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: started his own paper, yeah, many of them in magazines. 161 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: And um he was very sharp, dude, um, as demonstrated 162 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: by that first print shop job because he he started 163 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: out with no experience whatsoever and within two years he 164 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: was the foreman of the printing shop. So he was 165 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: a quick learner. UM. And at some point he decided 166 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: to start traveling abroad and UM and during some formative 167 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: years he ended up in in Costa Rica. UM because 168 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: apparently Costa Rica, Panama, these were places that people in 169 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: the America's kind of freely traveled to and moved to 170 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: and from what I can tell at the time, much 171 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: the same way that like Europeans move around the EU today. Yeah. 172 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: So he moved to Costa Rica. Yeah, he had at 173 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: least an uncle there, right, and he got a job 174 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: on a banana plantation as a timekeeper. UM. And while 175 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: he was carrying out this work like basically making sure 176 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: people were moving as fast as as possible to keep 177 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: everything nice and efficient, UM, he was witnessing and learning 178 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: at the same time that like these banana plantations owned 179 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: by American and European corporate interests were having a direct, 180 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: deeply negative impact on individual you know, Black Caribbean, West 181 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: Indian UM people's lives, Central American people's lives too. He 182 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: was in Costa Rica that he he just traced a 183 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: line directly between that. It was a very eye opening 184 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: experience and so we founded a paper uh there in 185 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: Costa Rica and started basically railing against the evils of 186 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: this stuff, and um made a pretty bad name for 187 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: himself among the authorities there quickly. And that's where his 188 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: uncle step down. I was like, you need to get 189 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: out of Costa Rica right now. Yeah, uh, and he did. 190 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: He went to London, one of a few different times 191 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: he would live in London throughout his life, and this 192 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: was in nineteen twelve. I don't think we actually said 193 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: that he was born in eight seven, so I think 194 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: really frames where, you know, kind of the time period 195 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: that he was learning all this stuff. Uh. He studied 196 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: law and philosophy at Burbeck College under the University of 197 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: London and again started working for a newspaper there, and 198 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: this is where he started to sort of learn about 199 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: Pan Africanism a little bit more because the newspaper was 200 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: one that you know, just sort of championed that idea 201 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: and that is just sort of the notion of bringing 202 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: together people of African descent from all over the world 203 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: under one cultural identity. And that's you know, there's a 204 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: lot to it, but that's sort of a simplified way 205 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: to say it. Yeah, Like a lot of times you 206 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: hear it referred to as the African diaspora, Black Africans 207 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: who moved from Africa, who were forcibly removed from Africa 208 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: to become enslaved in the Caribbean, um in America, um 209 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: in Canada, even um and and that over time these 210 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: people just grew more and more separate. Pan Africanism was 211 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: an idea of bringing them back together at the very 212 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: least intellectually emotionally um as a as a nation among 213 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: other nations, but spread out or as Garvey would later, 214 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: really kind of take up this idea, like you were 215 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: saying earlier, of actually moving everybody back to Africa and 216 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: being like, Okay, Africa's black, you guys, Europe, America, you 217 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: guys can have your your white continents. This is the 218 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: Black continent, but we're co really ruling the world with you. 219 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: That's just how it is. That was his ultimate dream, 220 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: and that that was kind of what pan Africanism envisioned 221 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: in in Garvey's eyes at least. Yeah, and that would 222 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: become sort of the basis of his entire movement as 223 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: as far as like just a cultural idea. Uh So, 224 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: then he goes back to Jamaica, he got married to 225 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: a woman named Amy Ashwood, it was a pretty rough marriage. 226 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: They were separated just after a few months, I think 227 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: in his mind, legally divorced a few years later, but 228 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: she always held onto the notion that they were never 229 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: like the The divorce was not legal, and so she 230 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: went to her grave saying that she was like the 231 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: true wife of Marcus Scarvey. But it got pretty ugly. 232 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 1: They accused one another infidelity. He accused her of being 233 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: an alcoholic and like I said, as a teetotal or, 234 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: it was something that he did not believe in at all. Um. 235 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: But you know, I think it says something about him 236 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: and his ideas that regardless of this sort of nasty divorce, 237 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: she stayed and worked h with his with his group 238 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: he founded along with her, the Universal Negro Improvement Association 239 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: and African Communities League of the World. But the Universal 240 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: Negro Improvement Association UNIA is the one that really stuck 241 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: and is even still around the day. And she stayed 242 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: and even as we'll see later, tried to protect him 243 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: when there was an attempt on his life taken. Yeah, 244 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: and probably did save his life from what I read 245 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: um by putting herself in between him and his assassin's bullets. 246 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, She definitely did a lot of the early 247 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: work that he became very well known for, because once 248 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: he started to take off his his name and his ideas, 249 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: Garvy is um is what it's called, just shot off 250 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: like a rocket, and she was there for most of 251 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: the groundwork of it. And then they split up shortly 252 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: after that, so I could see how she'd be a 253 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: little bitter about that, and then in short order he 254 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: kind of gave her something else to be unhappy about, 255 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: and that was he married Amy Jack's spelled like Jacques Um, 256 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: who was a Kingston native Um and was his personal 257 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: secretary but also was Amy Ashwood's close friend and maid 258 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: of honor at their wedding. Awkward, So I think that's 259 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: when reason why Amy Ashwood was a little upset about 260 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: the whole thing, in addition to doing a lot of 261 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: the groundwork that he later got, you know, so much 262 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: credit for and still does today. But um, he has 263 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: an Amy Jacques Amy Jack's Um marriage lasted I believe 264 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: until his death, correct until nineteen Yeah, I mean they 265 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: married a nineteen nineteen uh, And I didn't see anywhere 266 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: that they ever split up. No, I think that they did. 267 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: And they had two sons, Marcus Mosiah Garvey the third 268 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: and Julius Winston Garvey and Amy Amy Jacks was Um 269 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: was very accomplished in her own right. She came from 270 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: an aristocratic Kingston family. I think her father grandfather was 271 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: Mayor of Kingston, and um, she was very well educated, 272 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: very well read, very intelligent, and as we'll see, she 273 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: helped continue Marcus Garvey's work while he was otherwise occupied 274 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: for a while in the twenties. Yeah, and that, you know, 275 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: that led to a little bit of which is really 276 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: good documentary from PBS. PBS experience as are always really good. 277 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: And uh, apparently that caused a little bit of um 278 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: internal strife within UNIA was when they eventually found it. 279 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: I think it was pretty much their most popular newspaper, uh, 280 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: the Negro World. He had a page dedicated to women, 281 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: and she ran that page and uh she you know, 282 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: she ran it like somebody should run their own page 283 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: in the newspaper, and apparently caused a little bit of 284 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: strife within the organization because as much as he was 285 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: had these progressive ideas about women and uh you know, 286 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: propping them up. Uh, not everyone at the time, even 287 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: within UNIA, had those same ideas. I think he tried 288 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: to sort of spread that message, but you know, there 289 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: were some there were some men in the organization still 290 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: they were a little bit like, who is this lady? 291 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: You know? Yeah, sure, good thing that's over and done with. Yeah, right, solved. 292 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: You want to take a break and then come back 293 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: and talk a little more about UNIA. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. 294 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: Stuff you should know, stuff you should know, alright, Chuck. 295 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: So we're talking about UNIA, the United Negro Improvement Association, 296 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: which was the brainchild of Marcus Garvey and something he 297 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: attempted first in Kingston, I believe in nineteen sixteen something 298 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: like that, maybe nineteen fifteen, um, and it did not 299 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: quite take off. He had been inspired by Booker T. 300 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: Washington's Tuskegee Institute, and in fact, he was kind of 301 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: like the intellectual and probably cultural air to book Or T. 302 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: Washington's ideas because Washington was a conservative. He believed in UM, 303 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: black self enterprise, black self sufficiency, in that black Americans 304 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: working UM hard and creating a life of their own 305 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: amidst white Americans would show white Americans that blacks weren't inferior. 306 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: They just wouldn't be able to ignore it anymore. And 307 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: then thus white Americans Black Americans would treat one another equally, 308 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: and the the issue of you know, bringing Black America 309 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: out of enslavement and from under Jim Crow would be 310 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: solved once and for all. That was the very conservative 311 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: view of book or t. Washington, and that inspired Marcus 312 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: Garvey so much that he started corresponding with book or 313 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: t Um and he, uh, he was invited to America 314 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: by by Washington. Um, but he arrived about a year 315 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: after Washington died, never got to meet him, but he 316 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: was deeply inspired by him and in a lot of 317 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: ways carried on his work. Yeah, so he was a 318 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: little bit late. Uh, and you know, his intention was 319 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: definitely to meet with Washington, but it was you know, 320 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: this was nineteen sixteen when he moved to New York, 321 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: so it's not like it is today, like, uh, you know, 322 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: you can't just catch a flight up there real quick 323 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: if someone's not doing too well healthwise. So he missed 324 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: his opportunity there. But he had those same ideas and 325 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: he he basically you know, would ask himself and this 326 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: is a quote, where's the black man's government? And he 327 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: came to the conclusion that there was none. They had 328 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: no representation basically, and so he went on to say 329 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: I will help make them and that was his aim 330 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: with Unia UH And like he said, it did not 331 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: go over too well in Jamaica, but when he got 332 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: to the US, it really really started to spread pretty quickly. 333 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: I think the first uh US chapter was in nineteen seventeen. Uh. 334 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: They only had seventeen members in a basement in Harlem, 335 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: but he would eventually go on to buy a building 336 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: in Harlem that hosted you know, like six thousand people 337 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: at a time, and at the peak of his movement, 338 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: he would claim that there were six million members. Uh. 339 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's tough to give a direct count. People 340 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: in history say that he had a knack for just 341 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: sort of and this is the PiZZ Barnum side sort 342 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: of over inflating everything. So they say it probably wasn't 343 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: six million, but I definitely saw you know, it numbered 344 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: in the millions worldwide over the course of the movement. Yeah, 345 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: because to say that his message resonated with people is 346 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: the understatement of the year. He came along at a time, 347 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: he came to New York at a time where in 348 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: America there was a real um discord and unhappiness and 349 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: uneasiness going on with black Americans, a number of whom 350 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: who had just returned from fighting in World War One 351 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: for America, yes huge and like rightfully so, like they 352 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: served for their country, UM, and were rewarded with more 353 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: racism than than ever, including race riots and massacres at 354 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: the hands of um, you know, white neighbors who you know. 355 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: We talked about the Tulsa massacre, UM, and plenty of others, 356 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: and in several of our episodes. This is the time 357 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: that this was going on. And so I think I 358 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: have the impression that black Americans were getting more despondent 359 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: after losing hope so suddenly and violently UM, and also 360 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: more upset at that idea. And so Marcus Garvey came 361 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: along also at a time where the scientific community was 362 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: saying like, oh, by the way, if you're black, you're 363 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: genetically uh, inferior to white people. Sorry, that's just science. Uh. 364 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: And Marcus Garvey came along and said, you know what, 365 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: these people could not be wronger. But the one thing 366 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: about Garvey was, and this is what kind of separated 367 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: him from some of his peers that were highly educated 368 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: and sort of a little more of the UH like 369 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: the the initial back to Africa movement was started by 370 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: the first African American millionaire. So a lot of times 371 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: these people had money and they were sort of in 372 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: a higher financial class, but he really championed the working class. 373 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: That's where he came up. And his whole thing was, 374 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, these the women that were working in domestics, 375 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: which his mother did, and I think that had big 376 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: impact on his views of progressive ideas toward women. But 377 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: then the men, you know, they were they were working classmen, 378 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: and he said that their official seal for union should 379 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: be a washtub, a frying pan, a bail hook, and 380 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: a mop. Right. So these these were the people he 381 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: was speaking to, yep so, and so ultimately he created 382 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: this this um idea, this concept that's referred to as 383 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: Garvy is um in it in a nutshell, is basically 384 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: taking America's um you know, faith in the ability to 385 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: succeed through hard work and enterprise and ingenuity and um 386 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, self respect, and combined it with the yearning 387 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: of um black Americans, black Caribbeans, black Africans to be 388 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: treated as equals, to live free from oppression, and and 389 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: mix those two things together and that's what Garvey ISUM 390 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: was and and again it rang all over the world. 391 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: And um one of the ways that that it kind 392 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: of drew people in is he created almost like a 393 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 1: shadow culture in Harlem at the at Union where like 394 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: you would go to these meetings. He had like nightly meetings, right, 395 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: but they were also like you know, larger, bigger almost conferences. 396 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: And then there were huge conferences, but the smaller conferences 397 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: might be like a day long thing where like the 398 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: whole family comes and you have meals there and you 399 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: see like a vaudeville show there, and there's like a 400 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: fashion show and like that. You split off into like 401 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: breakout sessions to use horrific corporate buzz speak UM where 402 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: you would learn like a trade or maybe be like 403 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: drilled in military techniques, or you would um learn nursing 404 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: and then be sent off to aid in natural disasters, 405 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: Like you would learn stuff that the rest of society 406 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: had shut you out from. This is where you could 407 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: go learn it and you know, lift yourself up and 408 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: in turn lift the whole culture up as everyone collectively 409 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: was doing this. Yeah, it was. It's the idea was 410 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: really cool, I think, and that you wouldn't just go 411 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: to a meeting and while there were for short debates 412 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: and Marcus Garvey just speaking about things. Uh, I think 413 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,239 Speaker 1: he wanted to make it more interesting and inclusive, and 414 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: that's why they would have concerts and fashion shows and 415 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: stuff like that. The Black Cross and Nurses was a 416 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: big part of this progressive idea for black women that 417 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: he had. And obviously it's with a lot of the 418 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: as you'll see the naming conventions for things he did. 419 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: It was a play on something that white people had done. 420 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: So they had the Red Cross. He started the Black 421 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: Cross Nurses and uh, they were a large organization that 422 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: did like so much good work and there was a 423 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: lot of pride within that movement of the Black Cross Nurses. 424 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: They had you know, their own slogans, they had their 425 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: own songs that they wrote. He had his fit very 426 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: famous phrase, up you Mighty Race, and it was you know, 427 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: I think he nailed it on the head. It wasn't 428 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: just um, it was a culture within a culture almost 429 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: like he was starting into the years that he was 430 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: doing this in nineteen twenties. I think just makes it 431 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: all that more impressive what he was able to do. Absolutely, 432 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: and another thing that he's credited with is if not UM. 433 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if he invented it, but he certainly 434 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: popularized the what's called the Pan African flag. UM. Usually 435 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: it's a three bars or three stripes. Yeah, red, green, 436 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: and black. I love those colors together in high school 437 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: and go by those stores. Something about the those colors 438 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: being together just like spoke to me. I was like, man, 439 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: that's really a nice color. Combo. You'd be like, could 440 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: I pull it off? No, It's like I can't go there, 441 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: but it was. I just always liked those colors together, 442 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: always loved looking into those stores. UM. So with the 443 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: Pan African flag is also called the African Liberation flag UM, 444 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: and it's also the colors of Quanza that would later 445 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: be founded in nineteen sixty six. UM. The red represented blood, UM, 446 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: the blood that was that united everybody of African ancestry, 447 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: but also blood that had been spilled through enslavement, war, colonization. UM. 448 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: The black represented Black people as a whole nation, and 449 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: the green was for the natural wealth of Africa. And 450 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: that was a really big important point that I think 451 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: UM Garvey tried to educate UM, Black Caribbeans, black Americans, 452 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: and even black Africans, but probably to a lesser extent 453 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: about that was like, this is our homeland and it's 454 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: probably the most naturally wealthy continent on Earth, and we're 455 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: all being treated like second class human beings and yet 456 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: this is our homeland. What are we doing here? Let's 457 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: we have to right this wrong, basically, And I think 458 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: that was also like a big driver for why they 459 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: was saying we all need to go back to Africa 460 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: and basically just say thank you for caring for this land. 461 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: It's ours again now. Uh. He authored the paper Declaration 462 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: of Rights of the Negro Peoples of the World, which 463 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: was ratified with twenty thousand people in attendance at Madison 464 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: Square Garden in n which is an amazing accomplishment in 465 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: and of itself. And this is where he was bestowed 466 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: the title of Provisional President of Africa. And I don't 467 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: think we've said yet. One of the cool things about 468 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: Marcus Scarfy was the way he would dress and he 469 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: would outfit himself in this sort of military regalia with 470 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: these uh hats with ostrich plumes, big ostrich plumes, and 471 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 1: he was a big guy, so it was you know, this, 472 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: this imposing figure comes in wearing this huge Ostrich plume 473 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: Like this was a part of sort of the P. T. 474 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: Barnum side, which was to come into a room and 475 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: grab everyone's attention and to make a statement and you know, 476 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: try and ignore me basically was what he put forward 477 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: with how he carried himself right, right, But at the 478 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: same time it also made him really easy target of 479 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: it a cool among his rivals in in UM, the 480 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: Black cultural leadership UM because I mean W B. D. 481 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: Boys wasn't wearing Ostrich blue and said it was an 482 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: embarrassment that he would dress up like that, But right 483 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: he was. He was, he was rocking his style. He 484 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: totally was, and I'm with you, I respect that style 485 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: as well. UM. But again it did make him a target, 486 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: and so did things like being being named the provisional 487 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: President of Africa Unia Convention in Madison Square Gardens. These 488 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: were things that like people could like pick on him for, 489 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: but he was his his idea was so strong because 490 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: it was appealing to While he was a polarizing figure, 491 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: his ideas were unifying. They could take all different kinds 492 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: of um, you know, black concepts and black thoughts and 493 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: black thinkers and black leaders and bring them all together 494 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: and basically say yes, despite our differences, we are all 495 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: in agreement. We this is a great way to lift 496 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: people up. We might not agree with going back to 497 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: Africa or not, but like, yes, we can come together 498 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: as a culture and lift ourselves up. That, like his 499 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: ideas were unifying, while he himself was polarizing. Should we 500 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: go ahead and talk a little bit about the origins 501 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: of the back to Africa movement? Yeah, let's see that, 502 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: all right, So this goes back. He is not He's 503 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: far from the first person to have this idea. Uh. 504 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: And like I mentioned earlier, one of the first people 505 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: was the first African American Millionaire's name was Paul Cuffey 506 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: or Cuffey c Ufe. He was a mixed race, uh, 507 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: Massachusetts sea captain and his father was an enslaved African, 508 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: and he had this idea that in in fact did so. 509 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: He actually returned at least several dozen African Americans to 510 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: Africa and to Sierra Leone. And this was an eighteen 511 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: fifteen and then later and I think we should totally 512 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: do a whole podcast on Liberia because the more I 513 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: read about it, just the more interesting it is. But 514 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixteen, the American Colonization Society, which you know 515 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson and James Monroe were members. They worked with 516 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: West African leaders to basically say less established this colony. 517 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: It would eventually be Liberia, and over the course of 518 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: about forty years, I saw anywhere from ten to twenty thousand, uh, 519 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: free black Americans moved back to Africa, yes, and and 520 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: lived in this new country that was granted to them, Liberia, 521 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: And so like you could totally get you know, um, krusty, 522 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: musty old racists like nineteenth century Andrew Jackson and his 523 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: cronies being like, yeah, let's let's set up a country 524 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: in Africa and send black people back there. Um. But 525 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: this also appealed to like you said, I mean, twelve 526 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: thousand free black Americans said, I'm out of here. So 527 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: there was definitely there was definitely Again, there was It's 528 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: so so strange to look at, but there was agreement 529 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: between racist white people and some black people who are like, 530 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: we we just don't even want to be around you anymore. 531 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: Let's just live separately. While there was also a very 532 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: i would say much stronger thread uh in the black 533 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: community is like, um, I'm a tenth generation American. Even 534 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: though a lot of those ancestors of mine were enslaved, 535 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: I was still born and raised in America, so are 536 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: my parents and my grandparents. I really don't have any 537 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: connection to Africa aside from my further back ancestors having 538 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: been enslaved there and brought over here. I don't really 539 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: have any interest in going back to Africa. Can I 540 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: support the idea of rising up as a as a 541 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: black community, as a culture without having to go back 542 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: to Africa? And Garvey was like, not really, No, we 543 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: need to go to Africa. The races should not be intermingled. 544 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: And that makes him a very polarizing figure, not just 545 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: among the black community, among the white community as well. Yeah, 546 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: and you know, I think Liberia definitely deserves its own 547 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: episode because I was reading into and it was just 548 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: really interesting sort of the ups and downs and what 549 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: happens when you have uh, you know, twenty tho African 550 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: Americans moving to Africa with their cultural identity that's somewhat 551 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: confused and and melding with the locals there, because it was, uh, 552 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: it was just really interesting to see what happened over 553 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: the years, like through the you know, mid two thousands 554 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: in Liberia. So I'm gonna put that one on the list. Okay, 555 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: it is officially on the list. On the list. You 556 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: made the sound and everything I did. Should we take 557 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: another break before we talk about, um, the Black Star 558 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: Line and then some troubles. Yeah, things get really interesting 559 00:32:44,240 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: here after the breaks, A stick around spoken. Should know 560 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: sh stuff you should know. All right, So you mentioned 561 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: the Black Star Line, and if you're listening, you might think, 562 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: doesn't Josh mean the White Star Line. No, he didn't, 563 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: because this is the naming convention that I talked about. 564 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: The White Star Lines was the I mean it was 565 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: the Titanic, right was part of the White Star Lines. Uh. 566 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: And so Garvey said, you know what, we need our 567 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: own industry. We needed our own business, We need our 568 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: own shipping. We need to be able to get people 569 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: to Africa. So I'm gonna start the Black Star Line 570 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen nineteen, which was the steamship shipping company to 571 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: facilitate shipping goods around the African diaspora and to literally 572 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: transport I mean, the ideal was to transport Black Americans 573 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: back to Africa. Um. Sadly, they never made it back 574 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: to Africa on those ships. There are a host of problems, uh, 575 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: including the fact that the ships that he ended up 576 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,959 Speaker 1: buying were almost all in pretty bad state of repair, 577 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: like former World War One ships. So you know he 578 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,479 Speaker 1: was he was working with the money that he had, 579 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,479 Speaker 1: which he raised selling five dollar shares at a time 580 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: at meetings, uh, and then getting into trouble selling them 581 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: through the mail. Yeah. So with that five dollars share, 582 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: that was a big deal because that was a low 583 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: enough price, about eighty one dollar money, thank you west 584 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: Egg Um, that a working class black family could could 585 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: afford to buy a share in the Black Star line, 586 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: and they were buying a share in like this actual 587 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: like enterprise that had the had the legs to knit 588 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: black people around the world together economically and physically, like 589 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: very everybody around and around and again, like you said, 590 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: ultimately help everyone move back to Africa. Um. But this 591 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: was even at a time that, like the average weekly 592 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: wage earned by the vast majority of Black Americans in 593 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: northern cities was less than five dollars a week. So 594 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't an easy five dollar or share to buy. 595 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: But you can imagine how many families that were in 596 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: unia Um that scraped together the money or saved up 597 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: for it to buy a share in the Black Star Line. 598 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: And nothing I've read seems like the Black Star Line 599 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: was ever meant to be anything but what it was 600 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: stated to be. It's just that things went south because 601 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: one of the things Marcus Garvey wasn't by all accounts, 602 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: is a shrewd businessman. He is not a biz whiz 603 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: by any stretch of the imagination, and that, from what 604 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: I understand, is ultimately what brought along the Black Star 605 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: Lines downfall. Yeah, I mean there was mismanagement. I read 606 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: one story where when they were doing some you know, 607 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: because they were trying to make money with this, like 608 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: you know, as a shipping company too, so where a 609 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: huge shipment of coconuts had gone rotten. But as he 610 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: insisted on making these sort of high profile political stops 611 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: along the route, whereas the I guess the sea captains 612 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: were saying, and these these were completely operated by African Americans, 613 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: captain and crewed by African Americans, and they were like, 614 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,800 Speaker 1: we need to you know, if you want these coconuts 615 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: to be sold and to actually profit in this company, 616 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: we need to go straight there. And he insisted on 617 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: stopping at different places along the way and he would 618 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: you know, things like that would happen kind of time 619 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: and time again. It seems like, uh and you know, 620 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: like I said, these ships were in disrepair. The first 621 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: one he bought was the Yarmouth I think re christen 622 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: the Frederick Douglas and it was a thirty year old ship. 623 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: One was called the Shady Side. End buying two more. 624 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: It eventually sank from a leak because of storm damage 625 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: from an ice storm. But you know, they had some successes. 626 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: I think I saw in the end it ended up 627 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: in in modern dollars, being like a twenty million dollar outfit. 628 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: It it just didn't succeed financially, but you know it, 629 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 1: that's a that's a lot of dough. So it wasn't 630 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: like something he went into lightly, you know, no, and 631 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: it was I mean, it just goes to show you 632 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: what an enormous enterprise it was that that that making 633 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: twenty million dollars couldn't even allow them to break even. UM. 634 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: In addition to the Black Star line, he also helped 635 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: found the Negro Factories Corporation UM, which created grocery stores, 636 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: restaurant UM, Moving Vans, publishing house obviously UM and all 637 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 1: sorts of other UM black owned businesses that not only 638 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: were run directly from the Negro Factories Corporation, but also 639 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: we're just affiliated with it. And so part of the 640 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: trouble that that Marcus Garvey ran into was and that 641 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: demonstrates he wasn't a very good businessman. He was shuffling 642 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: money from one enterprise to another to keep them all afloat. 643 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: And some were doing better than others from what I understand, 644 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: like the grocery store was doing really well, but say 645 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,479 Speaker 1: the restaurant wasn't. So he had to um move money 646 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: from the grocery store of the restaurant and then maybe 647 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: from the restaurant to the Black Star Line. And there 648 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: was nothing that that was so monumentally successful it could 649 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: keep everything else going. And so even knowing that like 650 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: the Black Star Line was in serious financial trouble, UM, 651 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: he he would stop on those coconut runs to to 652 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: try to sell shares. That's one of the reasons why 653 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: he was stopping was that you know, um rustle up 654 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: membership in UNIA and membership in UNIA, subscriptions to the 655 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: Negro World UM and appearances by him. UM all also 656 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: kind of came with pitches for buying shares in the 657 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: Black Star line. And that's ultimately what got him in trouble. 658 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: He was continuing to sell shares in an enterprise that um, 659 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: he may or may not have thought was was in jeopardy. 660 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: And the FEDS, who have been trying to get him 661 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: for years at this point, UM, finally said I think 662 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: we can get him now. Yeah. What they got him 663 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: for ultimately was male fraud. And what I saw was 664 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: it was specifically the fact that he was sending mailers 665 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: for donations, or not donations, but investment opportunities, uh that 666 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: featured ships that they did not yet own. So uh, 667 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: there was one ship in particular that he was trying 668 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: to buy, but the deal wasn't closed, but it was 669 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: prominently featured. And they said, wait a minute, this is 670 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: mail fraud. You can't. You're misrepresenting the company essentially by 671 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: having a ship on there that you don't have yet. 672 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: And we've got you. And he ended up serving um 673 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: how many years just a few? Right, He was sentenced 674 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: to five, but I believe he served two, right, and 675 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: his sentence was commuted and he was deported back to Jamaica. UM, 676 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: we're still gonna talk about other stuff. Before this, but 677 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: that's he ultimately ended up back in Jamaica. But when 678 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: you were just talking a second ago, I think one 679 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: of the things that is pretty clear was that he 680 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: was a He wasn't the best of businessman, but he 681 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: was also a victim of over being overly ambitious because 682 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: he had health problems through his whole life. He had 683 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: pneumonia quite a few times, and I think he had asthma, 684 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: and I think he'd had a feeling maybe that he 685 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: was not long for this world. So that's why he said, 686 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: let's start theaters, and let's start grocery stores, and let's 687 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: start restaurants, and let's start a shipping line. I think 688 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 1: he was overly ambitious and tried to move a little 689 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: too fast maybe, whereas if he might have slowed down 690 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: and put his efforts uh into fewer things, it might 691 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: have been a little bit more successful. Yeah, But also 692 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: imagine being like, Okay, we really need to make up 693 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: for lost time, you know, and then feeling like your 694 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: time on earth was was going to be shortened. I mean, yeah, 695 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: I know, not at all, but so he um he 696 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: did his time in Atlanta, Federal penn which is at 697 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: the end of Grant Park now, UM, which is one 698 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: of the scariest buildings you can never drive past. UM. 699 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: And like he said, he thought his time in this 700 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: world was gonna be fairly short. And he actually wrote 701 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: a letter from prison saying that you know, um, he 702 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,919 Speaker 1: basically expected to die in prison and if he did die, 703 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: then he was going to come back. He said, look 704 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: for me in the whirlwind. He's gonna bring with him 705 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: the souls of all the dead Africans who died enslaved 706 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: um and uh, basically right, all the wrongs, if you 707 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean. The documentary by the way, yeah, 708 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 1: I like our title more Black Moses. I think that's 709 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: such an amazing name for him, So awesome. But um, 710 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: so he he didn't die in prison. He got out, 711 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: like you said. Calvin Coolidge, under tremendous pressure from Union 712 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: UM members and his wife Amy Jacks Uh, finally said okay, fine, 713 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: he can come out, but he's going to Jamaica. And 714 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: that's where he went. And when he went to prison, 715 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: I mean, that was just not a good look. Like 716 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: this guy who was leading the movement to prop up 717 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: and raise up the black community going to prison, Um, 718 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: it just made him any even easier target, not just 719 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: among the black community, but also among like white observers 720 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: now to like, look, he went to jail, like, this 721 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: is your this is your leader. Come on, give me 722 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: a break. But we haven't really kind of explained it enough. 723 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: And and there's a whole other podcast we could do 724 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: just on this, but suffice to say he was very 725 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,879 Speaker 1: much the victim of government harassment, again at the hands 726 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: of Jay Hoover, who somebody said once that he became 727 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: so fixated on Garvy it became basically a vendetta. He 728 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: just wanted to get rid of Marcus Garvey and tried 729 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: for years to do it, and the government sabotaged Black 730 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: Star line fuel um fuel supplies so the ships would 731 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: would break down. Um, Like, he was harassed. He he 732 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: had like every reason to feel persecuted, and then finally 733 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: put in prison on a pretty weak charge to begin with, 734 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: because of his ideas and because he represented a threat 735 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: to you know, white dominance in America and elsewhere. Yeah, 736 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: in nineteen nineteen, Hoover hired And by the way, I 737 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: thought you were going to quote me a second ago 738 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: when he said someone once said about Hoover, I thought 739 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 1: you canna say that he was the worst American. That 740 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: would have been the most boss referential joke you've ever 741 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: pulled off. Uh So, in nineteen nineteen, Hoover hired the 742 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: bureau's first black agent, James Wormley Jones. And you might think, oh, great, 743 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,879 Speaker 1: he's being progressive. No, no, no. He hired him specifically 744 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: to be a mole and infiltrate Garvey's movement. And I 745 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: think he was the one that actually poisoned the fuel lines. 746 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 1: And he had other UH moles that he would install 747 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: within the organization. And it wasn't just um, I mean, 748 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: it's bad enough if you're doing that just to keep 749 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: tabs and report back, but he sent people in there 750 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 1: to agitate and to cause disruption. And I remember reading 751 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: one story where there was something about letters being sent 752 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: back and forth between different Union UH offices in different cities, 753 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: like pretty far apart, and that they were agitating one 754 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: another and with these letters, and it turned out that 755 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: none they were all written by Hoover or you know, 756 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: Hoover's cronies. Yeah, that's a playbook that little Putts would 757 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: be using for decades to come. He did that to 758 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: the Black Panthers. He tried to do it to the 759 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 1: civil rights leaders, like, yeah, that was he would just 760 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: he wouldn't put moles in just to like listen and 761 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 1: report back. He was like he put them in there 762 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: to destroy them from within, which is just you know, reprehensible, man, 763 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: what a snake. Yeah, and also don't write in I 764 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,319 Speaker 1: know what the word putts means and I meant it 765 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: with Jay. Uh, we should mention them attempt on his 766 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: life that we kind of referenced earlier. Uh, this was 767 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: back in nineteen nineteen and October. Uh, he had by 768 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: this time, this was kind of I guess hooever was 769 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: sort of already getting involved. But the New York d 770 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: A Edwin Edwin Kay, I'm sorry, Edwin P. Kilroe started 771 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: investigating UNI at first. In October of nineteen nineteen, a 772 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: man named George Tyler showed up basically kicked in the 773 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: door downstairs and demanded to speak with Garvey. Garby came 774 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,720 Speaker 1: out and see what was going on. He opened fire. 775 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: H you mentioned that Amy Ashwood got between him and 776 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: the bullets. But Garvey was hit three times, I think, 777 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: once in the scalp and twice in the legs. And 778 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: the rumor was, uh, and this is you know, I 779 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 1: think what Garvey believed was that Tyler was sent by 780 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: the d A. That was never proven. There were also 781 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: people that said, no, this was a guy who was 782 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: had restaurant dealings with him that was angry about how 783 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,879 Speaker 1: that business went down. So I don't think we'll ever 784 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,800 Speaker 1: know for sure what happened. But there wasn't an assassination attempt. 785 00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: So um, like I was saying before, when he when 786 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: he went to prison, like, it was not it was 787 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: not a proud day for UNIA, and union membership started 788 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: to drop off fairly precipitously. Amy Jackson's wife was trying 789 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: to keep things going, publishing his letters, like giving speeches 790 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 1: on his behalf lobby and Calvin Coolidge to let him 791 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: out of prison. Um, but it's just like the the 792 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: death blow was kind of struck. Although that's not to 793 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: say there's still UNIA today and Marcus Garvey's views and 794 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: Garvey is um and a lot of his teachings and 795 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: writings and thoughts are still very much espoused and followed 796 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: right and and not just in the reggae world. But 797 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 1: um he he uh basically spent the rest of his life, 798 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,319 Speaker 1: and his life was relatively short. He died at age 799 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,960 Speaker 1: fifty two. In he moved back to Jamaica, where he 800 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: was deported, he decided to move back to London. I 801 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,360 Speaker 1: could not find what kind of connection he had to 802 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: London to live there twice. Um, but that's where he 803 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: lived out the rest of his days, and because he 804 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: schooled there maybe, but he well, no I knew he 805 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: had an actual connection to London. I meant, like on 806 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: a an emotional level, like what drew him back to 807 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: London a second time? But um, but he died there, 808 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,839 Speaker 1: and he died just kind of like um, a bit 809 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: of an outcast. And one of the things that really 810 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 1: didn't help, you know, he was kind of losing a 811 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 1: lot of followers and adherents because he went to prison 812 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: and then later on he he um, he criticized Holla 813 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,879 Speaker 1: Selassie after he was deposed by Mussolini, and he also 814 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: looked up to Mussolini for being a strong authoritarian leader. 815 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: But the thing that really kind of like sealed his 816 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 1: fate among um, the black cultural leaders is what you 817 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, the bonkers meeting between him and the leader 818 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,919 Speaker 1: of the KKK, Right, Yeah, I mean, uh talk about 819 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: a radical idea um for him just to sit down 820 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: with a leader of the clan in Atlanta and in 821 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 1: exchange views of agreement on the fact that they each 822 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: thought that black Americans should that belonged in Africa. To 823 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: say that did not sit well within the leaders of 824 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 1: the black community is is a pretty big understatement. Yeah, 825 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: so that was I mean, that was the probably the 826 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,319 Speaker 1: biggest thing of of Marcus Garvey's downfall. But you know, 827 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: because of that, his his image like really kind of 828 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,439 Speaker 1: he he died as an outcast in London, um and 829 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,840 Speaker 1: he um he Over the years though like he was, 830 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 1: he seems to have been first picked up and rehabilitated 831 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: by the Rastafarians who said, like, hey, no, this guy, 832 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: this guy had some amazing ideas. This guy was speaking truth, 833 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 1: like his his teachings were important, and they kind of 834 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: picked up his um, his his image and dusted him 835 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: off and rehabilitated him. And people have kind of taken 836 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: like a closer look at him again and been like, yes, 837 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,880 Speaker 1: this guy was one of the most important black activists 838 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 1: in the history of the world. Yeah, I saw. I 839 00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 1: think in the PBS documentary they put it like this 840 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 1: that uh in the early nineteen hundreds provided a template 841 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,240 Speaker 1: for everybody that came after basically whether it was Malcolm 842 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: X or Martin Luther King Jr. Uh, the Rastafarianism, the 843 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: Nation of Islam, Like, there were so many organizations and 844 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: people that sort of used his life and his uh 845 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: cultural ideas as that template that um, it's it's it's 846 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 1: hard to believe that this is something. And we say 847 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: this all the time, of course, especially about black history. 848 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:35,280 Speaker 1: But I don't think I ever heard the words Marcus 849 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: Garvey in a high school or college history class, not 850 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: unless Peter Tosh was teaching. Oh man, I miss uh. 851 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,920 Speaker 1: We had this great radio station called album ADI eight Atlanta, 852 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 1: the George State radio station that every Sunday morning they had, uh, 853 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: like the best reggae show ever. Uh. And it wasn't 854 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't like, let's play Redemption song by 855 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 1: Bob Marlin. Great song, but it's where you it here 856 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: got all the early uh, all the early ska and 857 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,160 Speaker 1: like Lee Perry and the Upsiders. Man, it's so good. 858 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,880 Speaker 1: And now when we go to the lake on Sunday mornings, 859 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,920 Speaker 1: we just dial up a good like fifties and sixties 860 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,799 Speaker 1: ska playlist in honor of what what once was at 861 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: Georgia State. I think you can still stream it online, 862 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,400 Speaker 1: but it was a big deal with they shut it 863 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,279 Speaker 1: down basically and said, let's have two NPR stations in 864 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 1: Atlanta the exact same thing at the same time. It 865 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,319 Speaker 1: was a terrible, terrible decision that I hope one day 866 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,399 Speaker 1: they reversed because I hope maybe eight was so good. 867 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,919 Speaker 1: That was the more fire show. By the way, yeah, 868 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 1: and that boy that just openised to so much good 869 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: reggae win I was in college and there was a 870 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,319 Speaker 1: lot of bad reggae, and then there was like that 871 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: was Saturday, I guess you said. That was Saturday around noon, 872 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 1: and before that, in the mornings they would have a 873 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,320 Speaker 1: Saturday Morning cartoon music show where they play like Strawberry 874 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: Shortcake songs and like just like the most random stuff 875 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,080 Speaker 1: that they would get off the kids records. But it 876 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,879 Speaker 1: was great. And then the night before that, I don't 877 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: know if you remember Adam Bomb, remember, yes, like the 878 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: soul like, oh my goodness, that like album Adia eight 879 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: had it going on that dash that was like trance 880 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 1: and all that, and then uh, the relent in the 881 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,680 Speaker 1: years was sort of you know for the old white folks. 882 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:21,799 Speaker 1: I don't remember that it was. It was really good 883 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 1: deep cuts of of classic rock, so that it's not 884 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: like here's Boston's more than a feeling. It's like, here's uh, 885 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,759 Speaker 1: this deep cut from Steven Still's second solo album, right exactly. Yeah, 886 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:33,840 Speaker 1: that was that was album A D eight man Man 887 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: r I P album R I P. Dare we do 888 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 1: one on Rastafarianism at some point, absolutely, because then my 889 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,799 Speaker 1: list it's just it's a tough one. I think, Yeah, 890 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 1: I think so too. But with it, I mean, it's 891 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,480 Speaker 1: sufficed to say that Marcus Garvey was a prophet of 892 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,600 Speaker 1: Rastafarianism because he predicted the rise of Hollia Selassie, who 893 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,279 Speaker 1: became the god of Rastafarianism. And we'll talk more about 894 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,560 Speaker 1: that in a different map. How about that, it's good stuff. 895 00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,960 Speaker 1: I look forward. I believe it's Amazon is making the 896 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: Marcus Garvey movie, but definitely see if you can find 897 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: the PBS experience American experience. I think it is on 898 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,279 Speaker 1: Marcus Garvey. It's good stuff. And the guy who's gonna 899 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: play Marcus Garvey that was Winston Duke, You're right, the 900 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 1: dude from US. Yeah, and Black Panther too. Um well, 901 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about Winston Duke, go 902 00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:24,360 Speaker 1: check him out on IMDb. But if you want to 903 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,759 Speaker 1: know more about Marcus Garvey, um, yeah, like you said, 904 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,799 Speaker 1: check out the American Experience on him. But there's so 905 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 1: much stuff in great articles and interesting scholarship to read 906 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,640 Speaker 1: about Marcus Garvey and his legacy. So go check it 907 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: out because it's pretty interesting. And since I said that 908 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:46,279 Speaker 1: it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call this short 909 00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,480 Speaker 1: and sweet because this was a longer episode. So this 910 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,799 Speaker 1: is perfect. Uh. When we did the episode on the 911 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,480 Speaker 1: church Choir that didn't explode, we felt bad because we 912 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:01,280 Speaker 1: could not find Reverend Kimple's wife's first name. And wouldn't 913 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,799 Speaker 1: you know it, the stuff you should know, Army comes 914 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,760 Speaker 1: through for us. Hey, guys, love the show. Been listening 915 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: for years. I heard the episode on the church Choir 916 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: that didn't explode, and you said you couldn't find Reverend 917 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: Kimple's wife in her first name, And I was excited 918 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: because I knew that the nineteen fifty census had just 919 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 1: been released on April one, So I guess in our defense, 920 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,839 Speaker 1: we recorded that before people first, right. Absolutely, I went 921 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,640 Speaker 1: and searched and they were listed in the census. Walter's 922 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,840 Speaker 1: wife's name. Can we get a drum roll here is 923 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,600 Speaker 1: Eunice Jay Climpole. We probably could a guest in the 924 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,360 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. Units was probably a top five name, uh 925 00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:46,799 Speaker 1: for Evelyn in in uh in Beatrice, Nebraska, for sure. Yeah, 926 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's them right county and right profession 927 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,040 Speaker 1: and the only Walter Climpole. Yeah, I mean Climpole with 928 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,520 Speaker 1: without an e L. It's got to be it. Keep 929 00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 1: up with a good work. And that was from a 930 00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,839 Speaker 1: couple of people in it. But this was from Sue. 931 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Sue. Yeah, I did notice a couple 932 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 1: of people wrote in, so it's pretty sharp. The n 933 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,400 Speaker 1: censes just come out, and Sue sat bolt upright in 934 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 1: bed and said, I gotta look. Thanks, And that makes you, 935 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: uh an official research assistant. Right, So if you want 936 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 1: to be like Sue and send us some unpaid research 937 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: where we'd love that, that'd be great, especially if it's accurate. Um, 938 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,200 Speaker 1: you can put it in an email and send it 939 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 1: off to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff 940 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,640 Speaker 1: you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For 941 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 942 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,800 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.