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Speaker 1: Hello my Baby was a joke song a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit because Hello was the telephone was new. When it

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Speaker 2: was written, Hello was a new slang word.

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Speaker 1: Hello was slang.

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Speaker 2: Hello was slang hello. Alexander Graham Bell thought we should

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Speaker 2: answer the phone a hoy, right, And that's why Robert

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Speaker 2: that's why Burns, mister burn burn says, because of that.

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Speaker 2: But I guess people settled on hello, which was literally

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Speaker 2: a slang word. It was like lol of its time

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Speaker 2: what and so they were like that that song is

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Speaker 2: basically like llol, chat room baby or what. I like,

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Speaker 2: that's what that song is essentially, and it's time so

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Speaker 2: like writing chat room lover or something.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, So at the time people were like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: the kids these days, they're all saying hello to each.

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Speaker 2: Other, Hello, my baby, Hello, my honey, Hello, my ragtime gal.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: That song, I guess is about a guy who met

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Speaker 2: someone on the telephone, like he doesn't know her in

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Speaker 2: real life.

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Speaker 1: Well, and which at the time I guess was like,

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Speaker 1: remember when online dating was new and it was embarrassing

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Speaker 1: to say that you met someone online, And now it's

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Speaker 1: literally the only way to do it as far as

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Speaker 1: I know. That's oh man, I didn't know the phone

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Speaker 1: was like that. That's funny.

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Speaker 2: I know, you know this was a little internet post

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Speaker 2: should probably.

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Speaker 1: No no if hey, if you read it, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it was like was it a tweet or

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Speaker 1: a graphic somewhere?

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Speaker 3: It was it graphic?

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Speaker 1: Then I don't know. If we can't trust those, then

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Speaker 1: what are we doing here? If we can't trust graphics

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Speaker 1: we read on the internet with information presented as fact,

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Speaker 1: then I feel like the world might be in.

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Speaker 2: Trouble, big problems.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fortunately, we can trust that fact. So look, I'm

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Speaker 1: fascinated by it. I'm taking it as true. I will

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Speaker 1: spread it far and wide, including on this podcast, which

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Speaker 1: is about history. Yeah, and y'all can take that from us.

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Speaker 2: It's facts facts in that it's a facsimile of a fact.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's a clever twist, the fact simile of the truth.

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Speaker 2: It's a facts online fact, your honor.

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Speaker 1: I did not say it was a fact. When I

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Speaker 1: said it was a fact as in fac simile simile unbelieva.

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Speaker 3: You think that'll hold up.

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Speaker 1: I think it'll hold up well. Speaking of the court

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Speaker 1: of public opinion, of court in general, the legal system.

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Speaker 2: I love that way to tight end it's you.

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Speaker 1: Know, we've got to find these places to make a

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Speaker 1: smooth transition. Speaking of smooth transitions, speaking of explosive new information.

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Speaker 3: Oh, there you go.

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Speaker 1: We've got a hot one today. We do, truly, I mean,

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Speaker 1: right on the pulse of whatever American is talking about

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Speaker 1: after they finished talking about Barbie, right.

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Speaker 2: Which is worth a lot of discussion.

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Speaker 1: We saw both.

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Speaker 3: We did see both both, And we did.

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Speaker 2: Not do a double feature of Barbenheimer. No, but we

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Speaker 2: saw Barbie first, largely when it came the day it

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Speaker 2: came out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we saw Thursday. Yeah, largely because I could not

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Speaker 1: get tickets to Imax Opheimer until the Monday after its

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Speaker 1: opening weekend because it was just sold out. So we

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Speaker 1: went to Oppenheimer Monday, and I say, let's actually let's

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Speaker 1: reserve our review for the end, just in case people

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear if they haven't seen it yet.

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Speaker 1: You know, for either movie, I would say thumbs up

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Speaker 1: for both.

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Speaker 2: Agreed, Yeah, agreed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we can talk more about it at the end

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Speaker 1: to maybe both.

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Speaker 2: Great times in the theater with very different moods. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we did see Oppenheimer. Yeah, we did enjoy it. Two

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Speaker 2: thumbs up from both of us. But I did find

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Speaker 2: myself a little frustrated, and I certainly was not the

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Speaker 2: only one. There's a million million articles that you can

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Speaker 2: read about this from film critics, But I did find

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Speaker 2: myself a little frustrated by the lack of development from

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Speaker 2: the women's characters, the women in the movie who were

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Speaker 2: very important to Robert Oppenheimer.

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Speaker 1: Right right, And I'll just jump in and say, you

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Speaker 1: know this, this goes a little long. We definitely had

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Speaker 1: to split it into two parts. But surprise, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: it actually works out really well, I think because part

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Speaker 1: one of this episode it's very much like the biography

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Speaker 1: of his life, and the movie is very much a

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Speaker 1: biopic of Robert Oppenheimer. So for the most part, I

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Speaker 1: don't personally feel like anything here is spoiler heavy in

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Speaker 1: terms of anything from the movie being like, oh shit,

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Speaker 1: whoa surprise, I'm so glad I didn't know that. Like,

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Speaker 1: this is very much just kind of we're doing his

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Speaker 1: life much the same way Nolan did. There is one

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Speaker 1: major character death in his life that is a big impact,

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Speaker 1: and we do say that in this episode, so I

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Speaker 1: guess that's a little more spoilery, but it's also like

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Speaker 1: its history so it's like, you know, heads up, the

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Speaker 1: Titanic sinks, but.

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Speaker 2: Spoiler alert, but it's not around but it's okay. So

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Speaker 2: I also think that in that particular case, it's maybe

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Speaker 2: more interesting to know some of the history while you're

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Speaker 2: watching it than the other way around. So and then

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Speaker 2: enjoy looking it.

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Speaker 3: Up after them. Yeah, exactly as I did.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely will be referencing the movie throughout. Of course,

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Speaker 2: if you haven't seen it and you don't want to

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Speaker 2: be spoiled at all anyway, you feel free to save

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Speaker 2: this until after you've seen the f.

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Speaker 1: If you're like me and like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: know his wife's name, be or I see it, I

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Speaker 1: don't want anything in my brain.

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Speaker 2: Yes, ELI does not like any information.

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Speaker 1: I can't stop thinking slate style. I can't. It's a problem.

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Speaker 1: I'd recognize it's a problem, but it's how I enjoy things.

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Speaker 2: I do see that I you see that.

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Speaker 1: In part two of this episode of ours is just

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Speaker 1: the tail end of his story, and it has a

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Speaker 1: little bit more of like those oh shit moments from

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Speaker 1: the movie where I would have rather not known that

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Speaker 1: stuff going in. So I think you're basically I'm saying

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Speaker 1: I think you're safe with part one and part two

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Speaker 1: of this episode may be save until after you've seen

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Speaker 1: the movie if you care about that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: And we'll also get into our sort of response to

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Speaker 1: the movie and the Barbie movie in part two as well.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, because it's a double feature of the Millennium.

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Speaker 1: Definitely, so that's pretty exciting.

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Speaker 2: So at any rate, all that to say, little frustrated

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Speaker 2: about the lack of development for these women's characters. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to know more about who they were, why they

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Speaker 2: matter to Oppenheimer, or you know, what part they played

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Speaker 2: in this whole scenario. And you know, I know a

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Speaker 2: movie can't do everything. So not trying to talk shit

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Speaker 2: about Christopher Nolan whatever, whatever, but I just just wanted

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Speaker 2: to know more about him. I was really curious. So

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Speaker 2: we figured that we would take this time on this

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Speaker 2: episode to dive in tell you a little bit more

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Speaker 2: about Oppenheimer's personal trinity, the three most important women in

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Speaker 2: his life, Jean Tatlock, Ruth Tolman, and his wife Katherine Oppenheimer.

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Speaker 1: Right, I want to know bombs away.

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Speaker 3: Okay, hey, their friends come listen.

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Speaker 4: Well, Eli and Diana got some stories to tell there's

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Speaker 4: no matchmaking, a romantic tips.

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Speaker 2: It's just about ridiculous relations ships, a love. There might

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Speaker 2: be any type of.

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Speaker 4: Person at all, and abstract concept on't a concrete wall.

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Speaker 4: But if there's a story we were the second glance,

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Speaker 4: we'll put it in a show Ridiculous Romance.

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Speaker 1: A production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're gonna start with Gene Tatlock, who Robert

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Speaker 2: Oppenheimer met at a Berkeley house party in nineteen thirty six. Now,

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Speaker 2: her father was an acclaimed English scholar. He was an

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Speaker 2: expert on Jeffrey Chaucer, and he was already friends with Oppenheimer.

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Speaker 2: He was very impressed by Oppenheimer's literary knowledge. I guess

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Speaker 2: we're a scientific guy. It's a big reader. So he

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Speaker 2: was like, I like you. We can chat about books.

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Speaker 2: And Jeane was no Slauch herself all right in the

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Speaker 2: brain department. She spent time with Youngian psychoanalysts in Switzerland,

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Speaker 2: and then she attended Vassar College to study English.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine hanging out with a bunch of Jungian psychoanalysts.

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Speaker 1: I just it feels like an exhausting time it day.

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Speaker 2: I feel every word I say you're going to go,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, here we go again.

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Speaker 1: Get into it. No, don't analyze me. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to get a couple.

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Speaker 2: Of analyze this, Analyze that movie with Philly Kristal.

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Speaker 3: What a reference.

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Speaker 2: I would love to see young, Youngian psychoanalysts watch analyze

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Speaker 2: this and tell me how they feel about their field

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Speaker 2: of science in.

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Speaker 1: The nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, it'd be like, this is what's coming, this

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Speaker 2: is what you have wrought. Katie Rich, who wrote a

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Speaker 2: Vanity Fair article called Jean Tatlock, The Tragic Story of

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Speaker 2: j Robert Oppenheimer's Truest Love, writes that one of Jean's

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Speaker 2: classmates once said that Jean Tatlock was quote the most

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Speaker 2: promising girl I ever knew, the only one out of

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Speaker 2: all I saw around me in college that even then

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Speaker 2: seemed touched with greatness.

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Speaker 1: Wow, high praise from our classmates. I know, right, I

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Speaker 1: like this classmate might have had a little crush.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe Jane was also super hot and I loved

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Speaker 2: her handwriting.

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Speaker 1: Is she going to read this? I thought she was

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Speaker 1: the most promising person I ever met, the only one

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Speaker 1: of us touched with greatness. And I could get a

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Speaker 1: touch of that greatness.

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Speaker 2: I love to touch that greatness myself. She graduated faster.

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Speaker 2: She went to Berkeley to complete prerequisite courses that were

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Speaker 2: required to enroll at Stanford Medical School. And this is

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Speaker 2: when she also attended a fundraiser thrown by her landlady

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Speaker 2: for the Communist backed Spanish Republicans fighting the Spanish Civil War.

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Speaker 2: At this point, Jean was already a dues paying member

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Speaker 2: of the Communist Party, so she was already fully into

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Speaker 2: all this stuff. She once told a friend quote, I

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Speaker 2: just wouldn't want to go on living if I didn't

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Speaker 2: believe that in Russia everything is better.

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Speaker 3: Oh my yay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, our perspective of Russia is not great in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three acts. So it seems like a very naive quote.

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Speaker 2: But I suppose at the time you were like, revolution

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Speaker 2: is happening, some really exciting things in russ right.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, the probably proganda machine is strong across the

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Speaker 1: world in the US included very true. Now. Another guest

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Speaker 1: at this party was a man named a tall, skinny

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Speaker 1: guy named Jay Robert Oppenheimer. He was ten years older

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Speaker 1: than Jean, and she inspired him in more ways than one.

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Speaker 1: She got him into the poetry of John du and

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Speaker 1: then we'll circle back to that later. But she also

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Speaker 1: introduced him to her friends and the causes that she

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Speaker 1: felt passionate about, like the Spanish Civil War and the

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Speaker 1: plight of migrant workers. Probably turned to him and was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, in Russia, everything's night. You know in Russia.

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Speaker 1: She kindly shut up about it. Yeah, we get it.

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Speaker 1: You did your study I brought in Russia.

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Speaker 2: Like, come on, workers in Russia, unite now it's time

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Speaker 2: for the world workers.

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Speaker 1: It's like me now, like, well, you know, uh, the

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Speaker 1: wine in Italy doesn't have the sugar in it. The

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Speaker 1: French wine does. So if you ever get a chance,

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Speaker 1: everything's better. And who.

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Speaker 5: Want to learn?

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Speaker 1: But despite her introducing him too all this ideology, Annabelle

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Speaker 1: Nugent in the Independent article Oppenheimer's Women, points out that

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Speaker 1: Oppenheimer likely would have looked into communist ideology all by himself.

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Speaker 1: He didn't need Gene's help necessarily, because his brother Frank

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Speaker 1: and a lot of his colleagues at Berkeley were already

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Speaker 1: members of the Communist Party. They were already outspoken critics

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Speaker 1: of Franco's war in Spain, so it was all around

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Speaker 1: him already. The Patricia Klaus and Shirley Strashyinsky, who wrote

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Speaker 1: this book in twenty thirteen called an Atomic love Story.

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Speaker 1: The Extraordinary Women in Robert Oppenheimer's Life also point out

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Speaker 1: that even Gene Tatlock's conservative father gave money to the

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Speaker 1: Ambulance Corp. They write, quote, I think that for Gene

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Speaker 1: and Oppenheimer, their shared interest in psychology was a stronger bond.

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Speaker 1: And from Gene, one of their friends would later say,

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Speaker 1: Oppenheimer learned to be compassionate. So they're not having Pillow

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Speaker 1: talk about communism every night, right, Yeah, he's kind of like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I already know Femnism's cool. Whatever, sure, whatever, And they

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Speaker 1: had a lot of other stuff to talk about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and to point out that like communism as

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Speaker 2: a whole was a very trendy thing. Yeah, and it

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Speaker 2: was a lot of people were very interested in it,

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Speaker 2: whether they joined the party or not, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: they were very interested in a lot of what it

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Speaker 2: had to say, a lot of the philosophy of it

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Speaker 2: and so on. Of course, the practice, the way it

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Speaker 2: was a naturally we know, you know, with hindsights it

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Speaker 2: all went down, But at the time it was very exciting,

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Speaker 2: very different way to think about things. A lot of

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Speaker 2: people really really into it.

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Speaker 1: Well, and that her father, who was conservative and probably

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Speaker 1: you know, leaned fairly against communism, was more more pro

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Speaker 1: American capitalism, that kind of thing. Even people like that,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at the ambulance core, they're looking at the

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Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War, and they're like, yeah, I don't like

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Speaker 1: what's going on over there. I might not be a communist,

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Speaker 1: but what the fascists are doing is real bad exactly, which,

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Speaker 1: of course would have been an ideology that permeated throughout

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Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties and forties exactly. People were like, you

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Speaker 1: know what today, fascism's worse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, let's think it through.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But also like just the workers, the unionizing and the

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Speaker 2: labor stuff was all wrapped up with the communist stuff,

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Speaker 2: but it was a very it was kind of its

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Speaker 2: own thing. A lot of people were like, workers should

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Speaker 2: really get paid normal money, or shouldn't be working a

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Speaker 2: thousand hours and so on and so forth. So even

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Speaker 2: if you were a conservative, you were like, yeah, y'all

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Speaker 2: should unionize the ambulance workers. I should really get this going.

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Speaker 1: So because people getting paid fair wages for their work

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Speaker 1: is not inherently communist ideology, right right, no matter how

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Speaker 1: much they try to convince you. Huh oh, if you

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Speaker 1: think people should be paid for their work, they must

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Speaker 1: be coming.

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Speaker 2: It's a socialist. You're a communist exactly. Yeah, we've seen

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Speaker 2: it now, so okay. In the movie, Gene is often

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Speaker 2: shown pretty mad at Oppenheimer forgetting her flowers. She'll take

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Speaker 2: a bouquet and throw it immediately in the trash. Apparently

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Speaker 2: that is true. She did tell him to stop getting

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Speaker 2: her flowers all the time. He also proposed to Jeene

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Speaker 2: Tatlock two times, but she turned him down both times.

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Speaker 1: ThReD times of charm, buddy.

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Speaker 2: I know right, He was like, all you a way

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Speaker 2: to ask her again, but for whatever reason, she doesn't

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Speaker 2: want to marry him. But then Oppenheimer met Kitty Puning

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Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty nine. I think I'm saying that right,

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Speaker 2: and that kind of spelled the end of his affair

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Speaker 2: with Jean, but they still met twice. A year after

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Speaker 2: he married Kitty, Oppenheimer explained during his security hearing in

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty five or quote, we had been very much

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Speaker 2: involved with one another and there was still a very

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Speaker 2: deep feeling when we saw each other. They met up

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Speaker 2: for the last time when Oppenheimer was in Berkeley in

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Speaker 2: June nineteen forty three. At this point he was the

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Speaker 2: director of the Manhattan Project. The FBI was basically tailing

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Speaker 2: him everywhere. They were paying attention to every little thing

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Speaker 2: he did. Jean was a pediatric psychiatrist at Mount Zion.

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Speaker 2: She was doing some very important work with troubled youth,

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Speaker 2: so really great psychiatrist. They don't talk about that in

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Speaker 2: the film, but that's what she was up to. And

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Speaker 2: so the FBI tailed Robert Oppenheimer and Jean to dinner

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Speaker 2: and then to a hotel. They wrote in their official report, quote,

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Speaker 2: the relationship of Oppenheimer and Tatlock appears to be very

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Speaker 2: affectionate and intimate. I don't know why he talks like that,

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Speaker 2: but that's what he sounds like.

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Speaker 1: The FBI agent is quite the cool dude. Yes, he's

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Speaker 1: a morning radio DJ. And well, you're driving out the

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Speaker 1: five o five and finding out that Robert A and

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Speaker 1: Jean Tatlock at a very it's a mid that effects

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Speaker 1: relationship to you.

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Speaker 2: Joe Jaggar Hoover liked to be entertained by his FBI.

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Speaker 2: So you had to put on a little fun character.

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Speaker 1: Give me all the information you have on Martin Luther King,

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Speaker 1: but make it silly.

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Speaker 3: I make it fun.

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Speaker 1: Do it in a funny voice that does kind of

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Speaker 1: sound like that.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like you would? He'd be like, now,

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Speaker 2: do it like you just sucked in a lot of helium.

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Speaker 3: I didn't go.

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Speaker 2: Oppenheimer explained in his security hearing that she that Jean

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Speaker 2: called him to visit her because quote, she was still

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Speaker 2: in love with me. But this is when Oppenheimer ended

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Speaker 2: their affair once and for all, and seven months later,

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Speaker 2: on January fourth, nineteen forty four, Jean Tatlock died by suicide.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting with them their continued sort

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Speaker 1: of deep relationship. I think just shows what an intellectual

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Speaker 1: companionship they had, right, because that's someone who, yeah, they

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Speaker 1: had a physical relationship, but I think it was the

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Speaker 1: fact that they were on a similar level, that they

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Speaker 1: had all these conversations about when ideology or science or

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Speaker 1: you know, these things that they were both interested in,

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Speaker 1: and that became yeah, literature and poetry, and so of

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Speaker 1: course they still maintained that bond even after they separated.

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Speaker 1: That is I don't know that. That's just intellectually intimate

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Speaker 1: right like that. That often, I think never really goes

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Speaker 1: away when you have that kind of connection with someone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that goes beyond physical. So whether or not they continued

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Speaker 1: their intimate, affectionate physical relationship or not, they were always

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Speaker 1: going to be connected like that.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I see that. I see that. I think

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Speaker 2: they were still having a physical yeah yeah, yeah, affair

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Speaker 2: at this time. But I totally agree. It's one of

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Speaker 2: those things. I don't know. Robert Oppenheimer is one of

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Speaker 2: the smartest people in the world at this time. How

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Speaker 2: many people can he talk to?

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Speaker 4: You?

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's surrounded by a lot of very smart people.

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Speaker 2: So he's fine. We're not worried about him his social

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Speaker 2: but you know, I just think it must have been

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Speaker 2: very special to meet, especially a woman at that time.

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Speaker 2: So it's just limited education opportunity, So many women would

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Speaker 2: leave school to have children or start a family or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Discouraged from being there in the first place exactly.

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Speaker 2: So you know, it just might have been hard to

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Speaker 2: find a woman that he felt like he could really

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Speaker 2: have that kind of hold that level of conversation with. Yah,

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Speaker 2: So it'd be hard to let go of a person

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. At the time of Jane's suicide, she had already

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Speaker 1: been undergoing treatment for depression. Klaus and Strashinsky in The

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Speaker 1: Atomic Love Story suggest that she probably would have been

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Speaker 1: diagnosed with bipolar disorder today, but losing her connection to

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Speaker 1: Oppenheimer was a real blow. Kay Bird and Martin J.

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Speaker 1: Sherwin in their two thousand and five book American Prometheus,

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Speaker 1: which is the book that Nolan based the movie Oppenheimer on,

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Speaker 1: mostly they wrote quote for reasons of love and compassion,

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Speaker 1: he had become a key member of Jane's psychological support structure,

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Speaker 1: and then he vanished mysteriously. In Jean's eyes, it may

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Speaker 1: have seemed as if ambition had trumped love.

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Speaker 2: He chose the bomb over me. Yeah, kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Not that she knew what he was working on, right, right?

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Speaker 1: Or like he's his drive for I mean, Mary, do

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Speaker 1: his job, you know, like his relentless drive to succeed,

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Speaker 1: and what his he feels like is his chosen his

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Speaker 1: predetermined path, right is I guess more important than his

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Speaker 1: time with me for somebody who's already depressed, that can sting,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure really badly well.

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Speaker 2: He might have felt just like a buttress. Just even

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Speaker 2: seeing him twice a year was tough. And then when

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Speaker 2: he was like I can't see you anymore, it was like, oh, well,

387
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Speaker 2: now that one string that's tying me down is gone,

388
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Speaker 2: and so I'm just you know, out here alone in

389
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Speaker 2: the fucking cosmos, you know.

390
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Speaker 1: And you know, in sort of I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's defense of his character, but just sort of for clarification,

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Speaker 1: you know, having seen the movie, he was he couldn't

393
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Speaker 1: really go see her anymore. It was very difficult for

394
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Speaker 1: him to get out of Los Alamos. He wasn't allowed

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Speaker 1: to talk to anyone, right, I mean yeah, So it's

396
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Speaker 1: not so much that he was like, yes, screw you important,

397
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Speaker 1: I'm more interested in work now. He might have been

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Speaker 1: able to make a little more effort, but it was

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Speaker 1: very difficult for him to get to see her. I

400
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Speaker 1: mean there was people that he was working for who

401
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Speaker 1: were actively saying, don't you dare go see her? She's

402
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Speaker 1: a communist. Oh yeah, and you're not allowed to go

403
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Speaker 1: see anybody while you're working on this project.

404
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Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. And I mean Annie's married.

405
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Speaker 3: I mean he had a wife obviously.

406
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Speaker 2: Yeah, if he's going to spend time with somebody and

407
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Speaker 2: give his heart to somebody, it should probably be her.

408
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Speaker 1: That little factor too. Yeah, but an additional factor in

409
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Speaker 1: Gene's suicide might have been that she was also struggling

410
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Speaker 1: with her sexuality. In an Atomic Love Story, they share

411
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Speaker 1: a letter from her to a friend where she wrote, quote,

412
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Speaker 1: there was a period when I thought I was homosexual.

413
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Speaker 1: I still am, in a way forced to believe it,

414
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Speaker 1: but really, logically, I'm sure that I can't be because

415
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Speaker 1: of my unmasculinity. And in American Prometheus, she tells a

416
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Speaker 1: friend that she tried to overcome her same sex attraction

417
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Speaker 1: by quote sleeping with every bull she could find. So

418
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Speaker 1: doesn't that go right back into our very early stereotypical

419
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Speaker 1: beliefs of what a homosexual person looks and behaves, Like, oh.

420
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Speaker 2: Yeah, she didn't know about lipstick lesbians.

421
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Speaker 1: Right right, or that she couldn't or that if she

422
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Speaker 1: slept with the manliest men she could find, that would

423
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Speaker 1: you know, undo her attraction to women.

424
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Speaker 2: Well, and she's a psychologist in an early part of

425
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Speaker 2: this field, and that's that is what they believed very

426
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Speaker 2: long time. So she's she's feeling like she has the

427
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Speaker 2: best information there is to have, and this is how

428
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Speaker 2: shitty it's making her feel.

429
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what I'm saying exactly.

430
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Speaker 2: Anyway, Tragically, it was Jean's father who found her the

431
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Speaker 2: day after her suicide, and I just find that so.

432
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Speaker 1: Upsetting, really heartbreaking out.

433
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Speaker 2: He actually knocked on her door and did not get

434
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Speaker 2: an answer, so he had to climb in through the window,

435
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Speaker 2: and he found her on a pile of cushions by

436
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Speaker 2: the bathtub, with her head submerged in water.

437
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

438
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,159
Speaker 2: She had left an unsigned suicide note which read quote,

439
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 2: I am disgusted with everything to those who loved me

440
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 2: and helped me all love and courage. I wanted to

441
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,679
Speaker 2: live and to give, and I got paralyzed somehow. I

442
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: tried like hell to understand and couldn't. I think I

443
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 2: would have been a liability all my life. At least

444
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: I could take away the burden of a paralyzed soul

445
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: from a fighting world. This is such an interesting headspace.

446
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 2: Disgusted with everything to those who loved me and helped

447
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 2: me all love and courage. I wanted to live and

448
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 2: to give, and I got paralyzed. I tried like hell

449
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 2: to understand and couldn't. I've been a liability. Who is

450
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: she talking about? A liability to whom? What is she

451
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: trying to understand? Has that got to do with her sexuality?

452
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 2: Is that got to do with communism?

453
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 1: Is that got you know, right things in there that

454
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 1: it could apply to?

455
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 2: And it might be all those things, it might be everything.

456
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 2: She's like, everything in my life has been so confusing.

457
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 3: And hard and challenging, and I'm done.

458
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: I'm done, and it's a challenge to the people that

459
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: I bring into my life. Like she feels like she's

460
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 1: I wonder if she's taking part of that with Oppenheimer,

461
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: for example, or she's like, he's got government agents watching

462
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: him all the time because he likes me, and I'm

463
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: a communist. Yeah, you know, so I'm such a I'm

464
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: such a challenge for the people that I care about.

465
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: That's a really difficult feeling.

466
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 2: Well, her father lay her body on her bed, and

467
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 2: then he went through all her correspondence. He burned some

468
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 2: letters and photographs, and then he called the police, trying

469
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 2: to maintain her privacy. I imagine because of Oppenheimer's nineteen

470
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 2: forty three visit to Jean, her phone had been wiretapped

471
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 2: by the FBI. They decided she needed to be under surveillance.

472
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 2: So actually, j Edgar Hoover was one of the first

473
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 2: people to learn that she was dead.

474
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: Wow, that guy was the first person to learn a

475
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 1: water show.

476
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: Okay, he had his fucking fingers and wagh, too many pies.

477
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: Ooom pie pie. But do it in a silly costume.

478
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: And then I'll eat it as silly cussin.

479
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, okay, speaking to j Edgar Hoover. There is

480
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory because there always is around this guy,

481
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: because he certainly invited them.

482
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 2: He wanted it, and he got it.

483
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: There's a theory that Jane did not commit suicide but

484
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: possibly was killed by the FBI. Now, among other reasons,

485
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: it's because one of the drugs found in her system

486
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: was chloral hydrate, which is a chemical that you combined

487
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: with alcohol to make a Mickey Finn or a concoction

488
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: that will knock someone out cold.

489
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 2: That's some al capone.

490
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, give him the all Mickey Finn.

491
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: Mickey Finn, and drop him in the ocean.

492
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: Now. One doctor told the authors of American Prometheus quote,

493
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 1: if you were clever and wanted to kill someone, this

494
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: is the way to do it. But a number of

495
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: things here don't really line up in terms of this

496
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, because Jane herself would have had easy access

497
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: to chlorohydrate on her own, since she worked as a

498
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: psychiatrist in a hospital, and and Mickey Finn requires chloral

499
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: hydrate to be mixed with alcohol, but there was no

500
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: alcohol in Jane's system.

501
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: They definitely saw, by like her state of her organs,

502
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: that she was a heavy drinker, but at that time

503
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: she had no alcohol in her right right, so therefore.

504
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: The chloral hydrate wouldn't have knocked her out.

505
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: Not necessarily, which which still is like so weird that

506
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: she would take it at all for the water exactly.

507
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: It's still weird exactly.

508
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: But apparently that's not how a Mickey Finn works.

509
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: Now. The prime suspect, according to Katie Rich in Vanity Fair,

510
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: is supposedly Boris Pash, who, if you have seen the movie,

511
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: is Casey Affleck's character, and I won't say much if

512
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: you haven't seen the movie, but talk about shuddering, talk

513
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: about chills.

514
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: Very small part, but he really was a real creet.

515
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: Real creep. So he's the prime suspect here. But Boris

516
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: Pash had actually been reassigned to London. By the time she.

517
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 3: Died, he was nowhere near her.

518
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: It's hard to say. Again, this conspiracy does kind of

519
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: start to fall apart, but no one could put anything

520
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: past jad Garhover and all his conspiracies seemed to fall

521
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: apart after a little while. And isn't that exactly how

522
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: he would have designed them? So suspicions still linger today

523
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: about whether or not she really killed herself. And I

524
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: would say, from what we've learned and the way that's

525
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: presented the movie, which obviously is a movie, it's got

526
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: its own ideas about how it wants to make you

527
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: feel at certain times and stuff, but it's pretty suspect

528
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: to me.

529
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: Honestly, they're both equally plausible because Jane was not happy person, right,

530
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, I wouldn't if you if it came out

531
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,959
Speaker 2: today that they've proved that the FBI or the CIA

532
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: or whatever killed Jean Tatlock, I would be like, will,

533
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised that now. Oppenheimer was devastated, truly truly

534
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: devastated by Jane's death. His close friend and Robert Server,

535
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: says an American Prometheus quote. Jane was Robert's truest love.

536
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: He loved her the most, he was devoted to her.

537
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: When he was asked about what to name the atomic

538
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: bomb test, he suggested Trinity as a tribute to Jane.

539
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 2: It's taken from a devotional poem by John Dunn, the

540
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: poet that she had introduced him to. So let's go

541
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 2: down to poetry corner, and here batter my heart three

542
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: person to God by John Dunn.

543
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: Batter my heart three person to God for you as yet,

544
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend that I

545
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: may rise and stand, or throw me and bend your

546
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: force to break, blow burn and make me new. I

547
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: like an usurped town to another, do labor to admit you,

548
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: but oh to no end reason your viceroy and me

549
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: me should defend but as captain and proves weak or unstrue.

550
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: Yet, dearly, I love you and would be loved fame,

551
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: but m betrothed unto your enemy. Divorce me, untie, or

552
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 2: break that not again. Take me to you, imprison me,

553
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: for I except you enthrall me, never shall be free,

554
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: nor ever chased except you ravish me.

555
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: This is one of those like historical moments where I'm

556
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: like did John Done say, I got to write a

557
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: poem for the guy who's going to invent the nuclear

558
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: bomb one day. This just lines up so perfectly.

559
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: Kind of does like your force to break blow burn

560
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: and make me new is like exactly what the atomic

561
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: bomb did. It's it's so it's perfect. I can totally

562
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: see why it came to his mind in relation to

563
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: the h.

564
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: And also, oh, I'm kind of in love with this

565
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: communist lady, but I'm betrothed unto your enemy. I'm literally

566
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: part of the American government right now. I'm set up

567
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: with this destructive force that very much dislikes you. So

568
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 1: divorce me, untie, or break that not again? You know?

569
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: Can I get a break here? Well?

570
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: I also see it in terms of bigger the bomb itself.

571
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: You know he is he loves the science. Yeah, sure,

572
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: but he's betrothed to the enemy of the science, which

573
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 2: is all science is to make weapons, right, Like, wasn't

574
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: that sort of the problem?

575
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 3: Was it?

576
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 2: With all the scientists They were like, I want to

577
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: learn this, I want to understand the universe in this way.

578
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: I want to see if this works. But I don't

579
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: want all our thought and all our theories and all

580
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: our practice and all our math and everything else to

581
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: lead up to a weapon of mass destruction. I don't

582
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: think that should be the culmination of my life's work.

583
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: And so it's very funny to just read it with

584
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 2: that kind of in your mind, thinking about Oppenheimer, thinking

585
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: I love this, this, This is exactly what I want

586
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: to be doing with my time, making and breaking and

587
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: learning and discovering and changing and doing and theorizing and whatever.

588
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: But the person I am betrothed to, the person I

589
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: am beholden to, needs me to do something with you

590
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: I don't like, and I'm really upset about that, and

591
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: I wish that I didn't have to, right, you know,

592
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 2: I don't know. Well, I read a lot of different ways,

593
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: but it works.

594
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: It works, which is the sign of a great poem. Right,

595
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: very true.

596
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: Great job John. It's almost like John Done.

597
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: She's kind of good. I think he's going somewhere. Keep

598
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: an eye on that kid as a poet, because I

599
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: feel like the bell's gonna toll for him?

600
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: Is that John Dune?

601
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: The bell tolls tolls for the John Done. Excuse me, dun.

602
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: That's how you remembers John Done. Because his name is

603
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: like a belt. Oh smart But okay, all that being said,

604
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: we've got a couple more ladies to get to. We

605
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that his affair with Jene was ended by

606
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: his relationship with Kitty, who would later become his wife.

607
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: So let's take a quick break and we will tell

608
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: you all about missus Oppenheimer right after these words.

609
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone.

610
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: So, Catherine Puning was an only child. She was born

611
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: in Germany, but after her father Franz invented a new

612
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: kind of blast furnace, her family emigrated to America in

613
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: nineteen thirteen to make their fortune. That Kitty spoke both

614
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: German and English fluently. She spoke English without any German accent,

615
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: and she apparently claimed that her father was a prince

616
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: and her mother was related to Queen Victoria, who who

617
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: she actually She believed this this was information given to

618
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: her about her family and their past, but it wasn't true.

619
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: In fact, her mother's most famous relative was not Queen Victoria,

620
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: but a cousin named Wilhelm I Tell, who was Germany's

621
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: war minister during World War Two, who was hated even

622
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: by his own military colleagues for being too much of

623
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: a yes man to Adolf Hitler.

624
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: Damn other Nazis. Yeah, too much of it, too much

625
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 2: of a daddy's boy.

626
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: When the Nazis are like, whoa calm down, bro with

627
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: the Hitler talk.

628
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: You're a real fear bro, and I don't care for it.

629
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: Yikes. Even Hitler himself said that kay Tell quote had

630
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: the brains of a movie usher out.

631
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: Even Hitler's like, what a dumb ass. Wow, it's true, though.

632
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: He said he was as loyal as a dog, though,

633
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: so he would always let him do all kinds of

634
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: crazy shit.

635
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: Although kind of rude to movie ushers Hitler. I guess

636
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: another group that Hitler wasn't too fun. Yeah another groom,

637
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: oh nut. Fans of Hitler on this show tell your friends.

638
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: So Catherine, who was better as Kitty, went to Europe

639
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: to study after high school, and it's not likely that

640
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: she took many classes, but she did meet her first husband,

641
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: Frank Ramsire, a Harvard grad studying music in Paris now

642
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: crossover alert. Ramsaire's teacher was Nadia Boulangire, whose career was

643
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: helped along quite a bit by our old friend Winneretta

644
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: singer Boom.

645
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: Patronized A small world. A small world, it is so anyway,

646
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: Kitty and Frank. They got married on Christmas Eve in

647
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty two, but it did not last long. Kitty

648
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: got an annulment only a year later. On December twentieth,

649
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three, she told friends that she had found

650
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: and read Frank's diary and discovered that he was both

651
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: gay and a drug addict. Oh, so she's like, let

652
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: me get the fuck out of here. I was like,

653
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: I have so many problems that. The first of all,

654
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: she's reading his diary. That seems wrong. You got a

655
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: problem with personal property or something. But also like maybe

656
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: she had to read it because she was like, there's

657
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: something not right about Frank. He's run around doing crazy shit.

658
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,959
Speaker 2: And she's like, let me look at the diary and

659
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: finds out he's taken crazy drugs, yeah, and seeing men

660
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: on the side or whatever. At any rate, she said,

661
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: let me get out of here. So at a New

662
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: Year's party only a few days later, Kitty met Joseph

663
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: Dalitt Junior. He was a dartmouth dropout, card carry communist,

664
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: and she moved in with him. Never married him officially,

665
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: but she became his common law wife. So they lived

666
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: together long enough basically that they had legal protection. She

667
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: joined the Communist Party after proving her loyalty by distributing

668
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: copies of The Daily Worker on the streets. But they

669
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: lived in like a dilapidated boarding house. They collected unemployment

670
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: to get by. It was just kind of a real

671
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: proletariat way living that the blue butted Kitty kind of

672
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: got fed up with. She said, I can't take it anymore.

673
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: She moved back in with her parents. Months went by

674
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: and she heard nothing from Joe, which kind of pissed

675
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: her off because she's like, I might not be living

676
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: with you, we're still together, so what's going on? And

677
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: then she discovered that her mother, Cath, had been intercepting

678
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: Joe's letters to her. And we won't get too much

679
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: into Cath, but Anne Wilson, one of Oppenheimer's secretaries, said

680
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: this about Kitty's mother, quote, she was a real dragon,

681
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: a hard, repressive woman. She disappeared one day over the

682
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: side of a transatlantic ship and nobody missed her.

683
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 3: That says it all, Jam.

684
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: Damn Anne, Anne is Wow.

685
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: She fell off a ship and drowned, and we were like, bye,

686
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: big deal. See who Kath? Who Kath?

687
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: Who?

688
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: I mean?

689
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: It's that is a crazy thing to say about.

690
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: Somebody, That is, you got to really do something. I

691
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: don't know what she did to Anne, but she pretty personal.

692
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: But it was a huge drift between Kitty and her mom.

693
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: Of course when she discovered.

694
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: There and the last letter from Joe to Kitty said

695
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: that but he was going to join a volunteer regiment

696
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: in Spain to fight against Franco. So she finally gets

697
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: hold of these letters, finds out that this is going on.

698
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: She traveled to Paris to meet up with him, and

699
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,919
Speaker 1: he went across the border into Spain and he joined

700
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: the Mackenzie Papino Battalion. Joe would write Kitty letters from

701
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: the front. One read quote each time up in the

702
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: lines that I see a fascist. I am sure that

703
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: I'll be more effective if I say to myself that

704
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: bastard is trying to keep you away from Kitty. So

705
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: I'll say it and do my job right. So Kitty

706
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: finally got permission to join him in Spain, but before

707
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: she could arrange her travel, she had to be hospitalized

708
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: for ovarian cysts and she was sent back to England

709
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: to recover. Then she was all set to leave for

710
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: Spain when she found out that Joe had been killed

711
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: in action on October seventeenth of nineteen thirty seven. His

712
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: letters to her were published into a book the next

713
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: year called Letters from Spain by Joe Dallitt, American Volunteer

714
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: to his wife. It might be that Joe Dallitt was

715
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: Kitty's gen Tatlock in a way because in a book

716
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: by Jenet Konnant called One oh nine East Palace, Robert

717
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer and the Secret City of Los Alamos, Kitty's friend

718
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 1: Shirley Barnett says that Dalitt was quote the great love

719
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: of her life whose death she never really got over.

720
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: So that's why she might be his gene tatlock and

721
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: sort of that like he's she went on, you know,

722
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: to have a long lasting marriage with someone else, but

723
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: this was the one.

724
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: This was the one that mattered.

725
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that really got to her.

726
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that might have been a point of I don't know,

727
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: of bonding between her and Robert. I wonder, you know,

728
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: if they talked about anything like that and they both

729
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: understood one another about having this person in their past

730
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: who still was in their heart and was very important

731
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: to them or whatever. Kitty came back to the US,

732
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: she enrolled at the University of Pennsylvania to complete her

733
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 2: undergraduate degree in botany. Finally, that's what she was supposed

734
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 2: to be doing all this for all this time, but

735
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: she had but she was kind of having a good time,

736
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: so she didn't do that. So she's finally trying to

737
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: get her botany degree, and that's where she met Richard

738
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 2: Stuart Harrison, a doctor with Oxford credentials. He proposed to her.

739
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 2: She accepted, but only on the condition that he let

740
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: her stay in Pennsylvania to complete her degree and then

741
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: also allow her to pursue a postdoctorate to get her

742
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,479
Speaker 2: PHP which was probably important to mention ahead of time

743
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: at that time because a lot of men in this

744
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: time period would have expected her to leave school and

745
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: start keeping his house and having the babies and stuff.

746
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 2: So she probably was like, look, let me just let

747
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: you know at the outset, I want a career as

748
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: a botanist. Yeah, and he's like, cool, no problem. They

749
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 2: were married in November nineteen thirty eight, and not long after,

750
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,479
Speaker 2: Richard left for his residency at Caltech, so they lived

751
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: apart for six months. He's in California, she's in Pennsylvania.

752
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 2: Then Katie graduated with honors from UPenn. She's a smart lady.

753
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: She was offered a research fellowship at Caltech. She was

754
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: working with a physicist named Charles Lawrenson, So she finally

755
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 2: moved to California, and she and Richard are like living

756
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: in the same house.

757
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: Like husband and wife.

758
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 2: In August nineteen thirty nine, her boss, Charles Lauritson and

759
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: his wife through a garden party Richard and Kitty Harrison attended,

760
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: and that is where she met the tall, slim, brilliant

761
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 2: Robert Oppenheimer. She was immediately enamored by him, and they

762
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: started an affair pretty soon after. I think this is

763
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: kind of ridiculous because she's been married to Richard for

764
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: like less than a year, right, they've barely been married

765
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 2: because he has not been in the same state as

766
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: her for six months, and then she immediately starts sleeping

767
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: with somebody else.

768
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: Well, it's tough to get a picture of Kitty's personality

769
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: simply because everybody kind of seems to have their own

770
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 1: opinion about her. Yeah, the cat meds in her article

771
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: for a Decade Review, which is called Plastercast Martini Glass,

772
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: Potted Orchid. The Life of Kitty Oppenheimer she lays out

773
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: all the various things that people said against Kitty. First,

774
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: you know, she was volatile, She was snooty, selfish, drunk.

775
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: She was a bad mother. She was a bad daughter.

776
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: She had a scathing tongue. She was an abusive friend

777
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: or cruel. She could never be without a man like

778
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: all these really nasty things. And her sister in law,

779
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: Jackie Oppenheimer, said quote, Kitty was a schemer. She was

780
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: a phony. All her political convictions were phony, all her

781
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 1: ideas were borrowed. She was one of the few really

782
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: evil people that I've known in my life.

783
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: I love your Jackie Oppenheimer so fun.

784
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: But Kitty's friends said that she was vivacious and quick witted,

785
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: She was intelligent. She was actually really fun to be around.

786
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: Her neighbor, who at first didn't like her but later

787
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: became her friends, said quote. At her worst, she was

788
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: absolutely without guile, brave, was a little lion, and fiercely

789
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: loyal to her own team. And her friend Verna Hobson,

790
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: who was one of Oppenheimer's secretaries, said quote, she was

791
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: Robert's greatest confidant and advisor. He told her everything he

792
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: leaned on. Huch tremendously. I don't know what's FK right?

793
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 3: Was that?

794
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: Like JFK has been living in New Jersey for a

795
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: couple of years ago.

796
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: I want you to play every woman in the nineteen

797
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 2: forties and fifties project.

798
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll go over well, it'll.

799
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 2: Work out great.

800
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: We felt like the women didn't get enough screen time

801
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: in Oppenheimer. So Eli's gonna play a man playing all

802
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: of them.

803
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: Oh god, I'm part of the problem, all right. So

804
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: Kitty and Oppenheimer started having an affair and it was

805
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 2: like hot and heavy from the get go. At one

806
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 2: point she went to see Oppenheimer at Christmas without her husband,

807
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: just going to see Oppenheimer. Another time, Oppenheimer invited both

808
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 2: Richard and Kitty to his ranch in New Mexico, Pero

809
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: Calli and Tay. Robert at some point had developed a

810
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: weak case of tuberculosis. He was told go to a

811
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: warm climate, you know, to recover, kind of like Doc Holliday.

812
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yep.

813
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 2: So he went to a ranch in New Mexico, and

814
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: he fell in love with the desert, absolutely loved it there.

815
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 2: He found out that the ranch was available for lease,

816
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 2: and he said.

817
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: Hot dog.

818
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 2: So then he named it hot Dog.

819
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 3: That's that's funny.

820
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: That's the story of the ranch. So anyway, he's like, come,

821
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: you know, come on down to Percalliante, you guys, and

822
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: like hang out on my ranch. Well, Richard said, oh

823
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 2: darn it, I can't go. I just got too much work.

824
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 2: Whoop at the hospital. So Kitty was like, well, I

825
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: don't have any work, and she went alone for two months.

826
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: She stayed for two months with Robert Oppenheimer at his ranch,

827
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: along with his friend Robert Serber and Robert's wife Charlotte.

828
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: And thanks to her wealthy upbringing, Kitty was an expert horsewoman.

829
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: She very much impressed people with her equestrian skills. So

830
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: she and Oppenheimer wrote horses together all the time. And

831
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: there's this fun story about how one time they rode

832
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: out to stay overnight with a friend of Robert's name Katie.

833
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: But the next day Katie turned up at Perocalliente because

834
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 2: she had to return Kitty's nightgown which had been left

835
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: under Robert Oppenheimer's pillow. She had to take that off

836
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: and like tuck it up under the bill. So it

837
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: was kind of like, girl, you left this in a

838
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: very obvious place. I know exactly what y'all were doing.

839
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: Can I say, side note, we saw Oppenheimer the seventy

840
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: millimeter Imax aupat Mala, Georgia, one of the few theaters

841
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: in the world to have that print.

842
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 3: Lucky.

843
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 1: Yes, And I'll say, actually, oddly it was almost too big.

844
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: Like I was having a hard time focusing on all

845
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: the dialogue because I'm like turning my head left and

846
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: right to listen to it. But the scenes where Robert

847
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: and Kitty are on horseback in the New Mexico Desert

848
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: are some of the most beautiful shots. Yes, I've seen

849
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: on a you know, three hundred foot tall screen whatever.

850
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: It was just stunning. I mean, you know, y'all know

851
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: if you listen to the show that we love the

852
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: desert out there.

853
00:42:58,680 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 2: It's true.

854
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: But the beautiful scenery of them on this enormous Imax

855
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: screen riding horses across the New Mexico Desert is unlike anything.

856
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 2: Gorgeous, unparalleled.

857
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, with all these desert shenanigans, maybe it's no

858
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: surprise that Kitty got pregnant while she was out there.

859
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 2: Whoops, common side of that constant Yeah, right.

860
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 1: And also I gotta say Richard. I don't know if

861
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: he was just oblivious or didn't care or what. But

862
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, you're the guy that you love that

863
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: you spent Christmas with alone last year, invited us both

864
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,959
Speaker 1: out to the desert. Well I can't go. Why didn't

865
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: you go yourself, honey for a couple of months? Is

866
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: you know? Don't again? I don't know if it's just

867
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: if he's just dumb or didn't care too.

868
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: I wonder that too.

869
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 2: It's it's kind of making me think of our a

870
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: lot of our Parisian counterparts and even similar time frames

871
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: right where they're like oh or British or whatever, where

872
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: they're wealthy and they're like, I'm married, but whatever. We

873
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: all have our little, you know, our little side relationships,

874
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: and it's very accepted in those circles. So maybe he

875
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: was like, all right, whatever, as long as she's entertained,

876
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 2: I'm busy, so fine.

877
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 3: I guess I don't know.

878
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: She was so allegedly a volatile person. She probably didn't

879
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: hold back at all, so maybe he knew that. It

880
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: was like I'm like, no, you shouldn't go by yourself.

881
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: That all I'm going to get is an earfull that's true,

882
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: and I don't feel like invoking the wrath of Kitty.

883
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: So like, if you want to go spend a couple

884
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: months Robert, go.

885
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: For it, okay, right, or he maybe did get an

886
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: earfull and she just went and did what she wanted anyway, regardless,

887
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: who knows. Okay, Well, let's take a quick break and

888
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: then we'll come back and we'll hear a lot more

889
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: about this presidency, what kind of parents the Oppenheimer's were,

890
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: and lots lots more.

891
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: So we'll see you.

892
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 2: And welcome back everybody. Last we left, Kitty and Robert

893
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 2: were in the desert together and they had gotten pregnant,

894
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: and Kitty had gotten her divorce and got Robert to

895
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 2: marry her.

896
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the more damning things that people had

897
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: to say against Kitty was that she sort of maybe

898
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: forced Robert's hand on this one. She admitted to his

899
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: secretary Ann Wilson, that she got him to marry her,

900
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: quote the old fashioned way, So she got pregnant on

901
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: purpose with him.

902
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

903
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: I mean again, when you're sleeping with someone for two months,

904
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: it's hard not to like to be like, oh it

905
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: was on purpose, Like yeah, I mean, she didn't try

906
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: to not do it exactly, Yeah, and it worked. Robert

907
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: called Richard Harrison to break the news, and he convinced

908
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: Richard to give Kitty a divorce so that he could

909
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 1: marry her instead. Bird and Sherman in American Prometheus wrote, quote,

910
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: it was all very civilized.

911
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess that's preferable.

912
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 5: Oh, mister Richard Sherman, Robert Abenheimer here, yeah, yeah, yeah,

913
00:45:59,440 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 5: I'm here with.

914
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:00,479
Speaker 1: Your I'm Kitty.

915
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry to send you this uncomfortable news. But

916
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 5: by jove, I did to have gotten your wife.

917
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: Pregnant by Joe.

918
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's the funniest thing.

919
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 5: I don't know how it happens, but I thought maybe

920
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 5: I ought to marry her instead of you.

921
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that, sir?

922
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: Oh well, everything you say sounds sound good. I mean,

923
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: you got to make her an honest woman out of her.

924
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 5: I certainly couldn't.

925
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, speculation station. Richard was like, oh, thank god.

926
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 2: I maybe, I mean, I don't know, go for it.

927
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 2: He might have been, because I think the main argument

928
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 2: he had against it was that getting a divorce would

929
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 2: harm his like reputation or something, you know, because it

930
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: still was not great to get a divorce, right right, right,

931
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: So he was kind of like, I'm worried about my

932
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: professional gin of my career or whatever if I get

933
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: a divorce. So it wasn't so much like but I

934
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 2: love her.

935
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: You know. So Kitty moved to Reno, Nevada for six

936
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: weeks and got her divorce, which we have mentioned in

937
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: previous episode that Nevada for the longest time maybe still

938
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: was like the place to get a quick divorce, that's right.

939
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: They specifically crafted their laws to promote divorce tourism basically.

940
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: So she got her divorce there and she married Robert

941
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer the very next day, on November two of nineteen forty.

942
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: In May of nineteen forty one, Kitty gave birth to

943
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: their son, Peter Oppenheimer, but, as cat Meads writes, quote,

944
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: he would not be the focus of either of his parents' lives.

945
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: In fact, Robert and Kitty left Peter with their friends,

946
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: the Chevaliers for two months while they took a vacation

947
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: to Perocalliente. Now, at this point, Robert started seeing Gene

948
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: Tatlock again. Right, so this is this is before her suicide.

949
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: This was with Kitty's knowledge, although maybe not her approval.

950
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,959
Speaker 1: He might have been real similar to her in terms

951
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: of just like, look, I'm gonna do what I might do.

952
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, although it makes me one knowing about Joe dallit, yeah,

953
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: and thinking did they ever you know, get close in

954
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 2: that way where they said, this is the person I

955
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 2: really loved, right, you know, of course I love you

956
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 2: and we're good, but like, this is my love, you

957
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: know what I mean? And so she was maybe more

958
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: able to understand about Gene than it would seem.

959
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: From You have old loves in our lives that are

960
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: forever part of us, right, So yeah, she might have

961
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: understood that better than better than most.

962
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe she might have been like, if I had

963
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: broken up with Joe, I think I might still be

964
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: wanting to see him too. You know, I get it.

965
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: You know, she might have gotten it even if she

966
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 2: didn't like it.

967
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, simultaneous that might even make it worse for her too,

968
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, you're going to go hang out

969
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: with the one that got away, the true love of

970
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: your life.

971
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: Cute?

972
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, But then everything really changed because Japan bombed Pearl

973
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: Harbor and the US entered World War Two. At this point,

974
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer was put in charge of the Manhattan Project.

975
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: Originally Kitty was like sort of excited about this whole

976
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 2: Manhattan Project, loves Alamos thing. She's like, cool, we like

977
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: to camp and stuff like this. We'll be fine. But

978
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: in Los Alamos was really hard on the scientists wives.

979
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 2: It was harder than anyone could have predicted. Again, if

980
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 2: you haven't seen the movie or you don't know much

981
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: about this period time period, just a quick debrief on

982
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: Los Alamos. In order to test this bomb, they had

983
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 2: to be somewhere in the country where there wasn't a

984
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: lot of residents, you know, around to be affected or

985
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 2: to see what they were up to. And they built

986
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: a city in the middle of basically middle of nowhere

987
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 2: in Mexico and they called it Los Alamos. So that's

988
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: that's what this is. There was hastily erected cities.

989
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was so much paranoia about even though we

990
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: were allied with them, about Russian spies trying to learn

991
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: about what we were doing, and obviously the Germans as well,

992
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: but in particular, in particular the American government was worried

993
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: about Communist spies also you know, copying what we had.

994
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: Because everyone was working on nuclear science at this point,

995
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: and how to split the atom and how to turn

996
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: that into a weapon, so incredibly secretive. That's why Robert,

997
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: you know, among the reasons Robert wasn't allowed to leave

998
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: Los Alamos really or go see Gene or you know,

999
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: even speak candidly with any of his colleagues or his

1000
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: family or anything like that. None of them living there were.

1001
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 2: Very top secret situation. So Los Alamos kind of a

1002
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: hard place to live. Yes, out you know, they're in

1003
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: the desert, water electrical power, both very scarce, fruits and

1004
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: veggies not fresh. They're having to truck them in from wherever.

1005
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: Their husbands could not talk to them freely about their

1006
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: work as they had before. There's this whole new strain

1007
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 2: on their marriages.

1008
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: Even within Los Alamos. You couldn't go home and talk

1009
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: to your partner about what you did at work today.

1010
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: Everybody in the city had different security appearances, so you

1011
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: literally couldn't. You had to lie. I mean you had to,

1012
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: you know, you had to.

1013
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 3: Couldn't.

1014
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 2: Even if you're not lying, it's still there's a strain,

1015
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 2: right if you can't talk openly with your spouse. So

1016
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: there was a strain in these marriages.

1017
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: It'd be like me coming to you if I've still

1018
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: worked in movies and television and saying, hey, we're moving

1019
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: to the middle of desert because I got a gig

1020
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: on a show, and you're like, cool, what's the show?

1021
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 1: I sign an nda, I can't tell you you're coming

1022
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: with me. You're gonna live in a ramshackle apartment with

1023
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: no air conditioning, and I'm going to be working for

1024
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: sixteen hours a day. And when I come home and

1025
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: you say, how is work, I'm going to say, what work?

1026
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1027
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: Right, I mean sounds.

1028
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 2: Fun kind of I know.

1029
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 3: Right.

1030
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 2: Of course, these women could not reveal to their relatives

1031
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: where they were right, so they couldn't have any visitors.

1032
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: They couldn't they couldn't live and shit up with any

1033
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 2: kind of anything like that. Mail was censored going in

1034
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 2: and out, No visitors were allowed, you know, et cetera,

1035
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: et cetera. This was a really difficult place to live.

1036
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 2: In the book Standing By and Making Do Women of

1037
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 2: Wartime Los Alamos, a woman named Jane Wilson writes, quote

1038
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 2: in the Mountains of New Mexico, the women aged, we

1039
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 2: aged from day to day. Living at Los Alamos was

1040
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: something like living in jail.

1041
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: I bet quite literally too, because I mean they didn't

1042
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: have the moist technology that we have today.

1043
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 2: Literally raging in the sand. A very true kitty worked

1044
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: briefly as a lab tech, so she actually did work

1045
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: on the project to an extent. She was examining blood

1046
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 2: to see the effects of radiation poisoning. But she then

1047
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: got pregnant. We stopped working, and she was far from

1048
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,439
Speaker 2: the only one to get pregnant. Okay, we just talked

1049
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: about how boring Los Alamos is. What else is there

1050
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 2: to do? And the Atlantic says that the Los Alamos

1051
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: baby boom was so big that General Leslie Groves started

1052
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 2: being like, the US Army shouldn't have to pay all

1053
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 2: these maternity bills.

1054
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: But well, excuse me, mister Groves, but it's your fault

1055
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 1: we got all these maternity bills to begin with.

1056
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 2: I was like, bitch, you're just spending billions of dollars

1057
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: on this project, Like, what's a few baby deliveries. Calm

1058
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 2: the fuck down. But that's probably why he was like

1059
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: going through trying a penny pinch whatever. I think that's

1060
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 2: just funny thinking about Leslie Groves being like true money briberies.

1061
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 2: So anyway, she got pregnant, and in December nineteen forty

1062
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: four they welcomed Catherine and Tony Oppenheimer to the world, and,

1063
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 2: like every other baby born at Los Alamos, the birthplace

1064
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: was recorded as PO Box sixteen sixty three.

1065
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: They couldn't because when you turn that upside down, it's

1066
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: yes E nine nine I, which is the formula for

1067
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: nuclear things. Sick for you, like, I don't know, it's

1068
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: circle and find it.

1069
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 3: Find it.

1070
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 1: There's something it's been up po Box sixteen sixty three.

1071
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: You rearrange that and you get three x O six

1072
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 1: B P P T pepe pee. Look.

1073
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 2: Oh god.

1074
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: Well, after Tony was born, Kitty had some serious depression.

1075
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: Now partly obviously this was from just being isolated at

1076
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: Los Alamos, right, probably one of the most depressing towns

1077
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: in America at the time, built out of plywood in

1078
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: a day, you.

1079
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 2: Know, and government guys running around gross to each other.

1080
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 1: You go out and try to have a drink with friends. Oh,

1081
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: what you've been up to? You know, I can't talk

1082
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: about that. What have you been up to? Oh? You know,

1083
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: I can't talk about that.

1084
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 3: I mean.

1085
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 2: Cool, read a book or something, he got a book

1086
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:20,439
Speaker 2: club or something.

1087
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, the loss Alma's book club. But her depression

1088
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: also probably came partly due to some postpartum depression, right, so.

1089
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,439
Speaker 2: Which they think she probably had after Peter as well.

1090
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,280
Speaker 1: So all this being said, she left Tony with another

1091
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: scientist family and moved back to her parents' house for

1092
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: three months, and she took their son Peter with her.

1093
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: So obviously like Robert's too busy to be single dad

1094
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: because he's heading up the nuclear bomb project, and she

1095
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: needed to get out of town. So while kitties out

1096
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: of town, let's turn our attention to the third woman

1097
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: in this Oppenheimer trinity, which also brings us to this

1098
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: episode sy to Peace, Great Mind saik Ake. Doctor Ruth

1099
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: Sherman Tolman was a powerhouse smarty pants, that's an official term.

1100
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: That was her degreem. She was a clinical psychologist. She's

1101
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: a university professor. She's the author of six books, and

1102
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: she created some of the first treatments for post traumatic

1103
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: stress disorder and was the first woman elected to the

1104
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues. So just

1105
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 1: a lot of boxes checked for doctor Ruth Sherman Tolman here.

1106
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: Her husband was Richard Tolman and his brother created this

1107
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: panel with the psychological study of social issues. So there

1108
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: was some controversy about her being elected to the panel,

1109
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: like maybe mepotism going on here, and Ruth said, hell no,

1110
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: straight up, like I worked hard. I'm damn good. I

1111
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: got this on my own merit. It doesn't matter who

1112
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: my brother in law is. I deserve this position.

1113
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 2: So she, instead of being in the Oppenheimer movie, was

1114
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 2: in the Barbie movie saying I worked hard and I.

1115
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: Deserve that right, Yeah, exactly, exactly.

1116
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 2: Hi Barbie.

1117
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: So during the war, she was recruited to several government

1118
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: agencies who were hiring psychologists, and she worked to address

1119
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:22,760
Speaker 1: the discrimination that women's psychologists were experiencing. Women's psychologists weren't

1120
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,399
Speaker 1: being informed about new scholarly findings, for instance, stuff like that,

1121
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: just like an active campaign to keep women out of

1122
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 1: the right field.

1123
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 2: It wasn't just like I feel disrespected by my mail coach.

1124
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: It was like, literally, they're not telling me information I

1125
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 2: need to know about my field of study.

1126
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, she walks into a room and is like, oh,

1127
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: I didn't realize there was a meeting today, and they're like, oh, yeah,

1128
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: we're just ending. Sorry forgot to tell you they wrote.

1129
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 2: It on the men's bathroom walls. Oh bad, he didn't

1130
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 2: see it. You know that type of shit.

1131
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: Now. Her final wartime assignment was developing psychological stability tests

1132
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: for field agent assessments for the Office of Strategic Services,

1133
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: which is now known as the ci A. So she

1134
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: came in was like, can you handle it? Yeah, here's

1135
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: the answer these ten questions. We're going to find out

1136
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: which the bear character are you, and that'll tell me

1137
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: whether or not she's the original buzzbeed quich.

1138
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: And she moved on to making buzzby quizes which kind

1139
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 2: of onion you are? I just think that's so cool. Yeah,

1140
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: she had to figure out I guess probably A can

1141
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 2: you handle it? And b are you a psychopath? And

1142
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: you will make horrible decisions you know, in the field

1143
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 2: and stuff. So so she's she's doing.

1144
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: Some serious because you might be like, oh, this guy,

1145
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: he's brilliant and he can totally handle the pressure. He

1146
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: can can he's a sociopath who doesn't care about human life,

1147
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: So maybe we shouldn't have him in charge of the

1148
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: A bomb you.

1149
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, right exactly. There's a different place for him

1150
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: right in or something. But there either I know r Actually,

1151
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: don't put him in the CIA.

1152
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe he's just Coldstone Creamery or something. It's better

1153
00:57:58,360 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: for him.

1154
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 2: Well, I tried to work at the CIA, but I'm

1155
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 2: applying today a Coldstone Creamery because they said I was

1156
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 2: too much. I was psychopathy.

1157
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 1: I didn't value human life enough. So anyway for a

1158
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,919
Speaker 1: cold star? Is that? Butter pecan? You said? All right?

1159
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 2: All right, so Ruth total boss bitch. She's also about

1160
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: ten years older than Robert Oppenheimer, so just so you

1161
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 2: have her.

1162
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: Oh okay, correct the flip between him and.

1163
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,479
Speaker 2: Exactly she's older.

1164
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.

1165
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: And Richard and Ruth had been friends with Robert Oppenheimer

1166
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 2: for years. Sure, Richard Tolman actually literally wrote the book

1167
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: on statistical mechanics, literally wrote that book, and Oppenheimer used

1168
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: his work to prove his theories about stars collapsing into

1169
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 2: black holes. It's called the Tolman Oppenheimer Volkoff limit.

1170
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: I love that. And this is something that I learned

1171
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: from the movie too, in the opening scenes, is that

1172
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer was like basically came up with the idea that

1173
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: stars collapsed into black holes. I did not know that

1174
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: he was involved in astrophysics like that. That's so cool.

1175
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: It's funny how much of this quantum mechanics and stuff

1176
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 2: I thought was older than it was. And of course

1177
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 2: at this time it was brand new field study. So

1178
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: it's really interesting. I'm not smart enough to understand any

1179
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 2: of it, but I love it. I think it's fascinating.

1180
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 2: So Richard Tolman also badass brain guy, and he worked

1181
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: as one of General Leslie Groves scientific advisors during the war.

1182
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 2: So he and Ruth both high level government work government

1183
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: service during the war. So they bought a house in Washington,

1184
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: d C. And Oppenheimer usually stayed with them when he

1185
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 2: had to travel to the capitol for meetings.

1186
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 3: You know.

1187
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 2: You see, he didn't leave Los Alamos very much, but

1188
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 2: when he did, it was to meet with politicians, tell

1189
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 2: him how it was going, get you know, new deadlines

1190
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 2: or whatever. So he would usually stay there. And most

1191
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 2: scholars say that Ruth and Robert Oppenheimer had an affair,

1192
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: usually starting around the time of her CIA service of

1193
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: this oss assessment tests. Atomic Love Story authors Klaus and

1194
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: Stracshinsky told The Independent quote, Ruth and Robert were deep

1195
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 2: and close friends for decades. He may have loved Kitty,

1196
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 2: but on some level he did not respect her. Ruth

1197
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 2: he respected and admired. He relied on her for advice

1198
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 2: and the sort of comfort only a good friend can provide.

1199
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 2: One of Oppenheimer's secretaries said he always kept one of

1200
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 2: Ruth's letters in his pocket, and Megan George, writing for

1201
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 2: Feminist Voices dot Com, says quote friends would often drop

1202
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 2: into the Tolman residence to find the couple alone in

1203
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 2: their dressing gowns, and says the affair went on after

1204
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 2: Richard Tolman died as well, so it was kind of

1205
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: a long standing thing.

1206
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: But Klaus and Stratshinsky also decided after all their research

1207
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: that there was no evidence of a physical affair between

1208
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: these two. At most, this was just like a very

1209
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: close emotional bond, right. Two people found something they can

1210
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: connect to. That probably again, as with many of the

1211
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: people in our Spenheimer's life, how many people can he

1212
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: actually talk to on a certain level. There's not many

1213
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: out there, so he got very close to people like this.

1214
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: Klausen Stratschinski told The Independent that Ernest Lawrence, who's the

1215
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,439
Speaker 1: character that Josh Hartnett plays in the movie, was likely

1216
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 1: responsible for all the rumors that were flying around about

1217
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,959
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer and Ruth because he had quote a long list

1218
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 1: of grievances personal and professional against Oppenheimer.

1219
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 2: Damn.

1220
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 3: So he was.

1221
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: Just stirring the shit shit talking shit. But they also

1222
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: point out that Kitty, who was known as quote a

1223
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 1: jealous person, never showed any signs of being suspicious of

1224
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: her husband and his friend Ruth, although clearly she would

1225
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: have had plenty of reason to he's spending so much

1226
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: time with her, but maybe she was quite clear and

1227
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: knew that there wasn't an affair going on between them.

1228
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 2: It's also like he doesn't seem to be very secretive

1229
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 2: about his affairs, Like he kind of tells them listen,

1230
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go see Genes. Yeah, and she's I don't

1231
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 2: care if you like it or not, That's what I'm doing.

1232
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 2: So I don't know why he would lie about Ruth

1233
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 2: to her, why would he cover that up?

1234
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: But anyway, so all that to say, it's not really

1235
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: clear how sexual this relationship might have been, whatever that's worth,

1236
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: but it's presented more or less this fact in the

1237
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: movie that they had a sexual relationship, and it seems

1238
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: to be mostly accepted by a lot of Oppenheimer and

1239
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: Ruth biographers. Some even say that Richard Tolman, her husband,

1240
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: died of a broken heart when he discovered their affair,

1241
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: because he died of a heart attack in nineteen forty eight.

1242
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: And I'll say, based on what we've heard here, husbands

1243
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: of the nineteen thirties and forties, maybe stop making Robert

1244
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer you and your wife's best single friend, because he

1245
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: keeps coming in and falling in love.

1246
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 2: They will steal your wis with your.

1247
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: Wife, and she loves him too. So maybe and hide

1248
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: your wives from Robert Oppenheimer.

1249
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 2: Fellows, you're fucking wife. And I will say, these are

1250
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 2: only three of the women that he was with. Robert

1251
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 2: Oppenheimer was with many other women, and some of them

1252
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: were married. He very frequently had affairs with married women.

1253
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: Here's the thing about Oppenheimer. He seems very towering and

1254
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 1: and he's got this really like just kind of impressive presence.

1255
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: He seems like he's so smart. He's kind of intimidating.

1256
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 1: But one of the reasons that they picked him for

1257
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: leading the Manhattan Project is that he was so dang personable.

1258
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 1: People loved him. They liked hanging out with him. He

1259
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: was really charming. He knew how to work with people,

1260
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: and he knew how to talk to people, and he's

1261
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: just very likable, which I did not expect to learn

1262
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 1: about him as we were studying. I figured he would

1263
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: have been one of these like cold scientists that's sort

1264
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: of difficult to communicate with because he's he's just operating

1265
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: on a different level. But he was actually kind of

1266
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: a total just dude.

1267
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a guy, which I kind of love knowing. Like,

1268
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 2: he's the type of intellectual person that just like he

1269
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: was so curious about such a wide variety of subjects

1270
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 2: that he was he was really interested in the people

1271
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 2: he was talking to. I think, for the most part,

1272
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 2: Carl Sagan and he could talk about a lot of things. Yeah, yeah,

1273
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: Carl Sagan as a great example. People did say with

1274
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 2: Robert Oppenheimer, he was just so magnetic that male or female,

1275
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: you just couldn't help but fall in love with him. Yeah,

1276
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 2: on some level or an other. So, yeah, maybe hydro

1277
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 2: wires around around Oppenheimer. So Robert Oppenheimer may or may

1278
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 2: not have been having a biicoastal affair with his friend's

1279
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 2: wife in DC. Dealing with his postpartum depressed wife Kitty,

1280
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 2: and trying to get the atomic bomb completed successfully, all

1281
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 2: at the same time. No pressure, No pressure, sir.

1282
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: Maybe as much pressure on him as there was inside

1283
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: the hydrogen bomb. Yeah, yeah, which we learned is all

1284
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 1: about pressure.

1285
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 3: Rite, A lot of pressure.

1286
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 2: Going on in there. So you know, if he was

1287
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 2: not actually sleeping with Ruth, whatever she did provide in

1288
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 2: the way of making him feel better about his life,

1289
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 2: I think he needed. They needed that letter or whatever

1290
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 2: she was saying to him. Regardless of the security protocol

1291
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 2: and stuff. On Los Alamos, Robert Oppenheimer did keep Kitty

1292
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 2: in the loop about what he was up to. So

1293
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 2: when the trinity test was successful, they did that on

1294
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 2: a mesa miles and miles away from Los Alamos. So

1295
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 2: the wives are on Los Alamos, they've no idea what's

1296
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 2: going on. Their husbands have gone off to try this shit,

1297
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 2: and they don't know what's happening. But of course, you know,

1298
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: he wants to share with Kitty whether or not any

1299
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 2: of this shit work. Yeah, worth it, right, So but

1300
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 2: he can't, of course, can't call her and be like all.

1301
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 3: Right, great job, babe, Like yeah, they're listening to every

1302
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 3: phone call exactly.

1303
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 2: So what he did was he called Kitty and told her, quote,

1304
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 2: you can change the sheets, and that was their little code,

1305
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 2: so he was still telling her what was up. Yeah,

1306
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 2: And clearly, like you know, just through all three of

1307
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 2: these women, you're seeing how much he needs their advice.

1308
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 2: He likes to hear what they have to say. Like

1309
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: he apparently caught it was a you know, Kitty was

1310
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 2: his main confidant. He clearly get a vice from Ruth

1311
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 2: before Jean died. He clearly needed to hear from her

1312
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: and have her be a sounding board for him. So

1313
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: I think even as differently as he loved or respected

1314
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 2: or whatever these women, he clearly did have a lot

1315
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 2: of respect for their brains, right, regardless of whow how

1316
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 2: great they looked to us on outside.

1317
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: Well, and I do wonder if this is one of

1318
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 1: those situations where, now this is true in the past,

1319
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: it's still true today. I'm sure where because he's a

1320
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 1: man and they are women. There's a degree to which

1321
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 1: oh I like you, I'm friends with you, I respect you,

1322
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: I consider my equal. I must be romantically in love

1323
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 1: with you, you know, And he sort of can't differentiate

1324
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, and then if you're attractive on top of that,

1325
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: and I'm you know, physically attracted to you, well, here

1326
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 1: we go. The only solution is that we must want

1327
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: to be doing it, you know, as opposed to just

1328
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: just like another one of his guy friends, their equals.

1329
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 1: They have brilliant conversations and that's it, Like we don't

1330
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,920
Speaker 1: have to sleep with each other. But I wonder if

1331
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: that ties into it, if he's sort of misconstrued feelings

1332
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: of companionship and respect and and just that sort of

1333
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: mutuality that they had, intellectually confused that with feelings, intimate feelings.

1334
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 2: I could totally see that. I could completely see that

1335
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 2: being a problem people today still really hard time. As

1336
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:20,959
Speaker 2: you said, got together.

1337
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 1: What wow? When it started, you know, it blossomed into

1338
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 1: something different.

1339
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 2: Good, I'm glad that blossom getting there. Oh my god,

1340
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 2: I'm gonna kick you out of this room. All right.

1341
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 2: So the Trinity test worked, and the atomic bomb was

1342
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 2: dropped and so on and so forth. We know all

1343
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 2: that part pretty well. Da YadA YadA. He changed the world.

1344
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 2: But once the war was over, of course, Robert Oppenheimer

1345
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 2: was a big shot, his giant celebrity. Everybody was like

1346
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 2: the greatest, most respected mind in the entire country. He

1347
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 2: had won the war, et cetera, et cetera. So he

1348
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 2: took a job at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton,

1349
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 2: where Kitty raised orchids. She kind of got back to

1350
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 2: her botany roots, and she had a greenhouse. She raised

1351
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 2: orchids there, and Robert would have rare species shipped in

1352
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 2: for her birthdays so she would have new species to

1353
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 2: hang out with. But also by this time, Kitty, by

1354
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: some estimations, had become a bad drunk, bad alcohol yo.

1355
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 2: She had always drank pretty heavily but throughout her time

1356
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 2: at Los Alamos, but it was really after that apparently

1357
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 2: it got kind of uncontrollable. She often had broken bones

1358
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 2: or bruises from drunken falls or car crashes. She would

1359
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 2: fall asleep smoking cigarettes, so she burned holes into her

1360
01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 2: night clothes and her sheets. Once she even set the

1361
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 2: house on fire. She was also a lot of pain

1362
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 2: from pancreatitis, and she took a lot of painkillers for that.

1363
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 2: So Oppenheimer's friend Robert Serber, actually says that all her

1364
01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 2: falls and other erratic behavior is is due to the pills. Oh,

1365
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 2: he said, he insisted that she did not drink any

1366
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 2: more than a normal person, which, let's just take that

1367
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 2: with a grain of salt. Is the fifties, everybody's drinking

1368
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 2: incredibly heavily.

1369
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, but she has like six drinks a day. Who normal?

1370
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 2: She gets up, she has a martini? Who does this?

1371
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 1: So just like me, a normal person?

1372
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:22,840
Speaker 2: Right, So, you know, his idea of what was a

1373
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: normal amount of drinking might not have my match hours today.

1374
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 2: But he did think that a lot of her falling

1375
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 2: asleep or all that stuff was more about the cankiller,

1376
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 2: and a lot of their friends did say Robert Oppenheimer

1377
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 2: is pretty ambivalent about Kitty's drinking. Didn't seem to find

1378
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 2: it to be a problem. So, but every portrayal of

1379
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:43,799
Speaker 2: Kitty is as a drunk, so it was a big

1380
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 2: part of her characteristic, at least on the outside for

1381
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 2: most people, that she was drinking fit too much.

1382
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so we're well over the hour mark at

1383
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 1: this point. So we've been having a great time learning

1384
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 1: about these women that Robert Oppenheimer got with. Definitely, I

1385
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: think arguable that they also changed the course of history

1386
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: through their involvement. Sure, I think so whole event that

1387
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:12,759
Speaker 1: really changed everything. So, but there's more to tell, and

1388
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 1: it's too much. It's too much once at once, right,

1389
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 1: it's too much. And also, as we said at the

1390
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 1: beginning of the episode, I personally think that the rest

1391
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 1: of the story, we're gonna be referencing stuff that does

1392
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:28,599
Speaker 1: kind of come as a surprise in the third act

1393
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,600
Speaker 1: of the movie because we're, you know, later into his

1394
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 1: life here, and I was so just kind of shocked

1395
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 1: by some of those moments in the movie that, you know,

1396
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:40,720
Speaker 1: I think it's better to see it first. Yeah, again,

1397
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:42,479
Speaker 1: if you're a person who cares about that kind of stuff.

1398
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: I'm a sensitive spoiler boy, so that gets to me.

1399
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 1: But there is definitely more to touch on. You've got

1400
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 1: another twenty minutes or so worth of story for Oppenheimer

1401
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:57,679
Speaker 1: and then the rest of part two, and we're dropping

1402
01:10:57,720 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 1: these both at the same time, so you can go

1403
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:01,720
Speaker 1: right into it if you want. We're going to give

1404
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,679
Speaker 1: our I don't I don't think review is the right word.

1405
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 1: So much is just like our thoughts.

1406
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair.

1407
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. On Oppenheimer and Barbie, that's right, right, of course.

1408
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, the two movies that every actor in

1409
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 2: Hollywood was in.

1410
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 1: Seriously, oh my god, everyone you've ever heard of in

1411
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 1: these two movies or episode six of The.

1412
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 3: Bear Bears, the rest of them.

1413
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 2: If you weren't on any one of those three projects,

1414
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 2: somebody lost your numbers.

1415
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's like how every British actor is in

1416
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,640
Speaker 1: either Harry Potter, Doctor Who, or Game of Thrones or

1417
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: down Nabby oh sure, or downt Nabby, all of them really,

1418
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:39,679
Speaker 1: and that kept England's actors working for a long time.

1419
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 1: And I think the rest of all actors were either

1420
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 1: in Oppenheimer Barbie or episode six, season two of the

1421
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: Bear at.

1422
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 2: Least they're working.

1423
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:51,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we're working too. We got a whole other

1424
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 1: episode to bring you. I think it's really fun stuff.

1425
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 1: Please stick around, listen up, and let us know what

1426
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 1: you think of our little movie pseudo review too, because

1427
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:02,839
Speaker 1: we have a We have a great time talking about movies,

1428
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 1: we sure do. Yeah, and we will talk your ear

1429
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 1: off if you give us the space. So that's what

1430
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: we did. So go ahead, hop on over to episode

1431
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:14,600
Speaker 1: two right now, finish up Oppenheimer's story and as always,

1432
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: let us know what your thought.

1433
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we always love to hear from you, guys.

1434
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 2: We love your suggestions. We love your random thoughts about

1435
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 2: stupid things we said, or about the story overall, or whatever.

1436
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 2: So reach out. Our email is redic Romance at gmail

1437
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 2: dot com.

1438
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 1: That's right. You can find us on Instagram. I'm at

1439
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:32,879
Speaker 1: o Grade, It's Eli.

1440
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 2: I'm at Dianamite Boom, and the.

1441
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 1: Show is at redict Romance.

1442
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 2: And you are awesome.

1443
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 1: You sure are pop over for popover for episode two

1444
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 1: and we'll catch it at that one.

1445
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 4: I love you, Bye, Solong friends, It's time to go.

1446
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 4: Thanks so listening to our show. Tell your friends, nabors,

1447
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,480
Speaker 4: uncles to listen to a show Ridiculous Romance