1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. This is a Pollukaville episode. A 4 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams. 5 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: Remember Pellucaville. It wasn't that fancy at all. It was 6 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: like a burger hot dog kind of joint, very like 7 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: kind of monster themed. They were like, yeah, like I 8 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: don't know, like sci fi horror. It was this place 9 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: in the Avondale, State's neighborhood of Atlanta that Ben and 10 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: I both loved, like you know, chili suck aspe as 11 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: you stuck on a chili dog. 12 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 13 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. They had great pork burgers. 14 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: They had way too many versions of milk shapes and 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: fruity drinks. That is none other than the legendary mister 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: Noel Brown. 17 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: And that's my friend Ben, who is not a Pelukah 18 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: I know. 19 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Oh, we're gonna have fun with this one. We got 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: We've got big Friday energy thanks to our research associate Andrea, 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: who not too long ago was rewatching pulp fiction and 22 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: fell in love with a word. Now we're all etymology 23 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: nerds here and we've all been in that situation where 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: a word just catches you and you got to know 25 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: everything about it. Noel Andrew was telling us when she 26 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: was watching Pulp Fiction, an amazing film, there was a 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: one liner, a throwaway line where someone says you looking 28 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: at something, friends, and the response is. 29 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: You wait, my friend Poluca. Yeah, it's Vence talking to 30 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: Butch whose last name escapes me, played by John Travolta 31 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: and Bruce Willis, respectively. Bruce Willis is sort of a 32 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: a shamed boxer. He's meant he's known for taking dives. 33 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: Let's just say in the plot of the story, and 34 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: not to spoil a thirty year old movie at this point, 35 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: but three two to one spoiler, he doesn't take the 36 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: dive at one point, and he bets on himself. I think, 37 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: and he told I think he kills the guy actually, 38 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, and that leads to him being 39 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: on the s h I T list of one Marsalis Wallace, 40 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: who's kind of the big bad in the film. When 41 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: John Travolta's character Vence Vega encounters him at a bar 42 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: and he says, you look into some friend, that's what 43 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: the boxer guy says, and to which Travoltzay's character respond, 44 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: you ain't my friend, Peluka, referencing the fact that he 45 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: was a shamed, disgraced boxer who was known for having 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: no moral character. I think that's how I always took it. 47 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: He even follows it up with calling him punchee, which 48 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: is another fun old timey term that we use a lot, 49 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: referring to being kind of having big Friday energy. 50 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: Right right exactly now. Immediately r pal Andrea says, what 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: the heck is a pelluca? And we're paraphrasing you there, Andrea, because. 52 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: It's a family show. 53 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: But she said something like that, and she realized she 54 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: had seen this word before in a comic strip, Brenda Starr. 55 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: And this is where in this comic strip, specifically, someone 56 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: calls a bank Robert who's using her as a hostage, 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: a big polluca. 58 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, something you could hear set in almost like a 59 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: Jersey admitted atlantic y. Yeah, big yeah, big Polluka cocking 60 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: out something like that, yeah yeah. 61 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: Oh. And let me correct that Brenda Starr was a 62 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: we're talking specifically about the film adaptation. 63 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: Starrin Broke Shields. 64 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: Of the original comic strip. And so now we learn 65 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: that the literal definition of polluka is synonymous with lout. However, 66 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: learning the origin of the word takes us on a 67 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: strange and unexpected journey, NOL. How would we set this up? 68 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: I guess we got to mention Joe Pluka comics. 69 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 2: Joe Pluca comics not to be confused with Bazooka Joe, 70 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: which is a bubblegum brand that contained a comic right 71 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: considered to be very low quality comics within those bubblegum rappers. 72 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: But Joe Pluka is a comic strip that debuted in 73 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: newspaper syndication I believe in nineteen thirty, while Brenda Starr 74 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: came out a decade later in June of nineteen forty. 75 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: So it made a sense that Star be jumping off 76 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: of that popularized term. I'm considering that the forties setting 77 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: of the strip. It also makes sense that Vince Vega 78 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 2: in pulp fiction would use that term as an insult 79 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: to Butch, Like I said, who was a disgraced boxer, 80 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: Because there's history there. 81 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Joe Peluka, just like Butch is a pugilist. 82 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: The words it's new for me a boxer, really, that's 83 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: what that but isn't pugilism also like a concept that's 84 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 2: more referring to being overly aggressive perhaps. 85 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, pugilist is anyone who fights with their hands, 86 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: got it? 87 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: And pugilistic is an adjective that can refer to someone 88 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: who is can be more generalized as someone who is 89 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: like by nature aggressively belligerent and prone to fighting. Guard 90 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 2: dog to. 91 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 3: Jump in here real quick, because I want to see 92 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 3: if this is hot. Why Ben knows this one as well? 93 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: I only know that because of elder strolls. 94 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. 95 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 3: There's there's like a there's I think it's a scar 96 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: on it, but it might be oblivion where there's there's 97 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 3: a there's a some like gonale that improved like on 98 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: on armed like damage or something like that. 99 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, like a buff, Yeah, boxer's buff. And if you 100 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: do type in pugilistic and pugilism, it really does come 101 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: directly up as boxing. So you're one hundred percent never 102 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: heard that term used to refer to the actual sport. 103 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: So I learned something new today in addition to everything 104 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: else that we learned for today's least. 105 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: Oh and sadly you know the reason. Maybe pugilist is 106 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: not as well known, even though it's a great word. 107 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: Is possibly because after a certain amount of traumatic brain injury, 108 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: it's going to be tough for the boxers to remember 109 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: specific words. 110 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: And again the next insult that Vincent Lobbs is punchy, 111 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: which does refer to that condition that you're describing. Yeah, exactly. 112 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: So let's go to a pre interesting conversation about this. 113 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: From an exchange on Reddit, someone asked, is it possible 114 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: that Peluka just meant a tough guy? But after the 115 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: creation of the character Joe Pluka, it took on the 116 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: meaning bad boxer. It seems that even even for pretty 117 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: determined researchers, the origin of peluka was mysterious. 118 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: That's right. The term did start appearing in print in 119 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: the early nineteen twenties and came to be used as 120 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: a stand in for a clumsy or unskilled boxer. Now, 121 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: Butcher and pulp Fiction isn't necessarily unskilled, but he is 122 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: one who has compromised his integrity as a sportsman in 123 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: favor of taking dives for organized criminals. And it's an 124 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: interesting kind of character arc because what sets off his 125 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: storyline in the film is him failing to do that 126 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: thing and in fact maybe being sick of it and 127 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: just you know, sick of being laying down, let's just say, 128 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: and he actually goes a bit too far and does 129 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: kill the guy, leading to one of the intersecting plot 130 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: lines of pulp fiction. 131 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: Like I was saying, mm hmm, yeah, and it's it's 132 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: always uh, I guess, heart wrenching to see someone whose 133 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: career is in decline. 134 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: And our guy. 135 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: Was always and also ran he was never going to 136 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: be Muhammad Ali. Again, pulp Fiction is a great film 137 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: if you somehow have not seen it. Not all of 138 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: it aged super well, but there's there's high art to it. 139 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: So the idea of Joe Peluka in the comic strip 140 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: is that he is a champion boxer. He's really good. 141 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: Maybe the author thought it would be funny or cute 142 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: satirical to name a great to give a great boxer 143 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: a bad name, essentially Joe Klamzibasa, But maybe the word 144 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: had some other earlier meaning and it got transformed by 145 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: the popularity of this comic strip. 146 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: And just really quickly to add, speaking of clumsy boxers, 147 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: this is a story that I wasn't super familiar with 148 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 2: and maybe one for another day. But there was a 149 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: former boxer by the name of it so aptly named 150 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: Eric Crumble, who is an American boxer former boxer who 151 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: is notable for his absolute horrific performance. He was considered, 152 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: at least in this bio that I'm reading, the most 153 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: prolific of American boxers in terms of consistent losses since 154 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 2: his debut in nineteen ninety. I love that his name 155 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: is Crumble. He just comes apart, right. 156 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: What a backhanded way to describe that he's prolific losses. 157 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, And there's some good info on this 158 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: dude out there if you want to read more, So 159 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: that would be a quintessential Peluca is mister Eric Crumble. 160 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: And Peluka gets further, He gets further embedded in the 161 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: zeitgeist with the creation of Popeye the sale Man. 162 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 2: Do check out our previous episode ONOS. We had a 163 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: good time and some big Friday energy on that one too. 164 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this has the cartoon when it comes out, 165 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: adapting from the comic strip, has a theme song we 166 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: all know. 167 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 2: The oh yeah yeah. 168 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: The theme song has this line, I'm one tough gun 169 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 1: gush who hates shawsh. 170 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: He's pop by the sailor man. I think it's funny 171 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: that line. It kind of changes if I'm not mistake 172 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: is you know, of course I fights through the finish 173 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: because I eats finished. And then there's different ones. But 174 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: this is one that I did not recall. But boy, 175 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 2: has this been living rent free in my head. I'm 176 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: one tough Kazukas who hates all pe Lucas. It's kind 177 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: of poetically brilliant rhyme scheme if you ask me, Gazukas 178 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: and Pelucas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 179 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: Also, we tried to figure out what a gazukas is. 180 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 2: Uh. 181 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: It is an unspecified. 182 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: Term like dad zooks, right, Like, it's sort of like 183 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: a non since word that gets its own kind of 184 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: various uses, right. Yeah. 185 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: In the nineteen twenties, apparently Gazuka's slangly meant an unspecified item, 186 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: a thingy or a gadget. So he's like, I'm one 187 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: tough do dad. Yeah, that hates Pelucas. Yeah that makes sense. 188 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: I get that as a stand in. Also, you know 189 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: what word is coming to mind from this era too 190 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: is galute. 191 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, big galutes. That's say, right, a clumsy, foolish 192 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: or silly person. There's also a sense of also a galute, 193 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 2: perhaps being a bit borish and. 194 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: Large, Yeah, a bit brutish, maybe not the brightest crayon 195 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: in the box. This also taps into a long standing, 196 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: hopefully friendly rivalry that existed back then and exists in 197 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: the modern day. Popeye is a navy guy. He's a sailorman, 198 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: and of course he would hate Joe Peluca, who is 199 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: an army dude, an army boxer. 200 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So it did make our researcher, Andrea wonder 201 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: if the word had only become a term for an 202 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: apt boxer in response to people that didn't like the 203 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: way Joe was represented in the comic strip. Yeah. 204 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, because Joe, like so many other comic strip characters, 205 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: reflected the era. He looked more and more like the 206 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: current heavyweight champ every time the comic strip was published, 207 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: and there was another heavyweight champ until Joe Lewis starts 208 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: to rise in the boxing ranks, the pugilism ranks, and 209 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: the artist of Joe Peluka said, oh, well, we have 210 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: to keep our pattern. We may need to turn Joe 211 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: Poluca into a black character white. It gets into a 212 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: little bit of cultural analysis, because white heavyweight champions represent 213 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: to a lot of people white male dominance at the time. 214 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: Peluca therefore a fictional representation of that. But then if 215 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: the world and culture recognizes there may soon be a 216 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: black heavyweight champ, they made the decision not to draw 217 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: Joe Poluca, not to transform him into a black character, 218 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: and so instead, maybe this is a speculation, the word 219 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: Peluca then became synonymous with not a champion boxer, but 220 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: a guy's not as. 221 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: Good because wait, just as backtrack real quick, because the 222 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: character of Joe Peluca was a badass, right originally Yeah, 223 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: see okay, So it wouldn't necessarily have been something that 224 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 2: was intended at that point, right to use it as 225 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: a negative, Like he was presented sort of as like 226 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 2: a champion. 227 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Joe Lewis is so good at what he 228 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: does in the ring that people started referring to his 229 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: opponents as the quote bum of the month. Everybody knew 230 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: they were going to get their bell rung. So the 231 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: simplest likelihood of Joe Poluka's effect on the word Poluka 232 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: as a phrase, which we're obviously all in love with 233 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: and bringing back it may have just been something where 234 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: new boxers entered the ring and people were trash talking, like, 235 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: look at this guy, who's he think he is the 236 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: next Joe Peluka. 237 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: Look at him in his goose suits. That's for another day. 238 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: It can't be you. You know why it can't be you? 239 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: You know why? For sure? Sure, So this leads us 240 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: to the perhaps simplest explanation, it's only a matter of 241 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: time before we get to our pals at the Oxford 242 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 2: English Dictionary, which references a book from nineteen twenty called 243 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: Character Glimpses by Australian Albert Oris Cooper. It's use in 244 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: there is unrelated to boxing, and instead just refers to 245 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: a more generally idiotic, stupid, buffoonish, clumsy, perhaps the worst 246 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: thing of all, mediocre person. 247 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: A stupid, clumsy, mediocre person. As you said, the specific 248 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: line you know we're referring to here is the following. 249 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: Alger just pen a ticket on that Peluca for parking again. 250 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: That fire plug that guy got increasingly southern in the south. 251 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: The quote right, so yeah, that's the quote that that 252 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: we're referencing. That first appears in prints, right Poluca, So 253 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: it also may have appeared in boxing publications in nineteen 254 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: twenty three. As far as we know. Uh, there's a 255 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: quote we'd love to give you about boxing from Pennsylvania's 256 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: Altuna Tribune. 257 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: Boy oh boy. Peluca is a new word, much used 258 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: lately to describe what was formerly called a hit out, 259 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: a setup, a sucker, a bowhunk, a pushover. All of 260 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: these words mean a very poor fighter. The origin of poluca, however, 261 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: is unknown unknown. 262 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: Uh so, okay, the author of that first attestation, that's 263 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: what we call it, the first time a word emerges 264 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: in print. The Australian guy that you mentioned earlier, Noel 265 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: Albert Horace Cooper, was a military man who was in 266 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: the service from nineteen sixteen to nineteen twenty. He came 267 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: back at the end of his service in London and 268 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: he was stationed in Bonn as part of the first 269 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: Infantry Division for about two years at the end of 270 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: the war. There may therefore be a military origin to 271 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: the use of poluca. So we know it had a 272 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: prior meaning, but it did not have necessarily the meaning 273 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: tough guy, so much as it had the meaning of 274 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: this guy thinks he's you know, hot hot potatoes, exactly 275 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: fresh beans. 276 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: He thinks he's. 277 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: Fresh beans this guy, so it was probably used in 278 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: boxing before the creator of the character Joe Peluca. 279 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: Well, that would make sense. Yeah, I mean, it's not like, 280 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: you know, the dude that created that character just summoned 281 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: it from thin air. Comic strips, to your point, Ben, 282 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: were always meant to be a reflection of the zeitgeist 283 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 2: and of you know, what was going on at the time, 284 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: So he would have pulled from what he knew, I 285 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: would conjecture, Yeah. 286 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Vincent Vega, therefore, is not not just pulling 287 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: dumb insults out of thin air. He is referring directly 288 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: to pugilism, because Vega is that there's always this like 289 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: subtext in pulp fiction that Vega is smarter than he presents. 290 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: And also he's he drives a classic car. He addresses 291 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: of that era. He you know, obviously this is Quentin 292 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 2: Tarantino writing, and this dude's into all this stuff. But 293 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: Vincent Vega's character, in particular, his use of this word 294 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: kind of represents that old timey sensibility that he yes. 295 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 3: If I could jump in here real quick. Actually, my 296 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 3: counter will always be what happens to Vincent Vega later 297 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 3: in the movie when he interacts with Bruce Willis, which 298 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 3: is probably the dumbest thing he could possibly do. And 299 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 3: I'll leave it at that, so I don't spoil it. 300 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: But I do also want to point at the whole 301 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 3: fact that I compared Pull Fiction to Finnigan's Wake just 302 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: to watch. 303 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 2: Ben get angry. I haven't read finnigans Wake. 304 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 3: Wake infamously starts out in the same place. 305 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 1: Right, That's excellent an observation, Max. But we'll let me 306 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: save you some time. 307 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: I remember you got a bone to pick with the shit. 308 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: I don't think Jeans Joyce read Finnigan's way. That's fair 309 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: if we're being honest, all right, Sorry James. 310 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 2: Anyway, some of the guy that was really into farting, yes, yeah, 311 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 2: took out that episode on James Joyce. That one's PG. Eighteen. 312 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we're very friendly, inclusive people in 313 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: real life. We don't joy keep shaming, but boy he 314 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: was on one. 315 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, king shaming, but like just the letters, boy, 316 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: oh boy, and make a sailor blush. 317 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 3: We beaped every profanity in that episode, but we have 318 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 3: an internal like rating that we use here. iHeart our service. 319 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 3: That just kind of says like you know, flag stuff 320 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: like you know, when we talk about like wars and 321 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 3: stuff like that will flag like you know, meetings like that. 322 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: Sexual content was like highest level possible for that episode. 323 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: We may have set a deep record for that one. Anyway, 324 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: we just want to we just want to do the 325 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: one line while we're here because we have such. 326 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 2: A bone to pick. Give it to us. 327 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: Okay, we're back. We took some time, all fair just 328 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: to find this. We're not going to give you the 329 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: whole thing. You're gonna have to listen to the episode. 330 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: But he does say things like, and he's talking to 331 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: the love of his life. 332 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: He says, you. 333 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: Had an arse full of farts that night, darling, and 334 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: I have fed them out of you. Big fat fellows, 335 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: long windy ones, quick little Mary cracks, a lot of tidy, 336 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: naughty little fartings. Indeed, in a long gush from your hole. 337 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: You've made this episode. Our race is now now the 338 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: children can't enjoy. It's for literal I know it. 339 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: It is from literagure, come from the Peluka, get tricked 340 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: into the farts. 341 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 342 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: Uh, it's crazy though, what we're saying, what we're talking 343 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: about now again, I love falling for one specific word. 344 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: Why are people familiar with some comic characters of Yesteryear 345 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: but not Joe Peluca. Apparently it comes down to a 346 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: feud between two creators. The creator of Joe Peluka is 347 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: a guy. I know you love this name. No Hammond, ham. 348 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: Fisher, ham Fisher, ham Fisher. It's good. I think I 349 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: said off area. That was one of the most like 350 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,959 Speaker 2: thirties forties names. Ever. It's me ham Fisher. I can 351 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: just imagine them like roasting a bean the train yard. 352 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: I'm picturing, yeah, I love it, with a stick and bindle. 353 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: I'm also picturing, like the the weirdest job in a 354 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: foregone age. 355 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 2: I'm a Fisherman of Ham, Fisher of Ham. Yes, this 356 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: was my. 357 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: Father, my father's father before him. 358 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 2: Weather rivers overflow with steamed hams. 359 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: Yes, steamed hams. Al Cap is the guy who beefs 360 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: up with ham Fisher. Al Cap created the comic strip 361 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: Oh beefs Up? I didn't. 362 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, al Cap beats up with Ham beating up with Ham. 363 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 2: That should be the name of the book about There 364 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: should be a book. 365 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: Al Cap is the creator of another comic strip called 366 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: Lil Abner. 367 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 2: You've heard of that one. I mean that is a 368 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: lot of times used as a general stand in. What's 369 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: that term ben for old timey comic strip? 370 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like metotomy for it. Right. Yeah, 371 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: So we we know that at the peak of their 372 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: careers in the nineteen fifties, these guys are legit superstars. 373 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: Ol cap is read by ninety million reader. He makes 374 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: five hundred thousand US dollars a year. Can we do 375 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: an inflation calculator on that? 376 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: We must. That's a b preak there and boob dude. 377 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: So five hundred thousand dollars in the nineteen fifties is 378 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: equivalent to four million US dollars today. Inflation is just crazy, man, 379 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: This guy is a serious artist. He is known as 380 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: is his work at least is known. This may not 381 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: well have been the age of like celebrity creators quite 382 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: as much. You know, he probably wasn't as known, but 383 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: his characters certainly were. Yeah, now, help out our buddy 384 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: the hemman. Yes, ham Fisher, that's right. Well, you know what, 385 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: let's just hear from an expert R. C. Harvey of 386 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: the Comics Journal, who tells the delightful meet cute story 387 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: one version of it anyway, we're going to get to 388 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: that here. How the two matt was a story they 389 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: both agreed on. 390 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: Caps swung his left leg out sideways, almost dragging it 391 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 2: forward for each step, and his stride had a practiced rhythm, 392 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: a rolling gait punctuated by a profound dip every time 393 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: he transferred his weight to his left leg, the wooden one. 394 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: This just got interesting, by the way. 395 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: That's all right. Yeah, it is a little bit of 396 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 2: a pimpwalk, and you want to keep on, keep it, 397 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 2: keep it wrong. Yeah. 398 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: But it wasn't the lurch that attracted the attention of 399 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: the man in the limousines so much as it was 400 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: the sheaf of paper in a blue wrapper that the 401 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: tottering stroller had tucked under his arm. 402 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: Good stuff. The man in his limousine was a cartoonist, 403 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 2: and he thought he recognized the blue wrapping paper it was, 404 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: he believed, the paper his syndicate used to wrap rejected 405 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: artwork in when returning it to hapless supplicants. 406 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: Pull up alongside that fellow, the man said to his chauffeur, 407 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,239 Speaker 1: And he turned to the woman seated next to him 408 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: and said, I bet that guy is a cartoonist. 409 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 2: The subject of this wager. The young man rolling along 410 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: the sidewalk on Eighth Avenue near Columbus Circle was a 411 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 2: somewhat shabby specimen who, despite the chill of the spring day, 412 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: was hatless and nearly coatless. But he didn't need a hat. 413 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 2: He had a shaggy mop of thick black hair. He 414 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: had only been in New York for a few weeks, 415 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 2: and the six dollars he'd arrived with had long since evaporated. 416 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 2: If it had not been for the kindness of his landlady, 417 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 2: who's boundless faith in her tenant's artistic skill prompted her 418 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: to stake him to his assault on the citadels of 419 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: the mass media, he would have been back in his 420 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: native Boston. Basically paraphrasing, his landlord let him stay in 421 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 2: her attic without paying rent, and sometimes she would give 422 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: him some pocket money so he could eat one hundred percent. 423 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: And this is such beautiful language, but it goes on 424 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: a bit, So why don't we just kind of sum 425 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: up what happened? This is essentially a somewhat hyperbolic kind 426 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 2: of myth making kind of stuff. In this particular version 427 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 2: of the story, ham Fisher is kind of painted as 428 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: the saviors of young al Cap and offers him a job. 429 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, not known as al Cap yet. 430 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 2: This kid is Alfred G. Kaplan. 431 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: And when this fancy pants dude says hey like a guy, 432 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: stops his limousine and says, I bet my sister, you're 433 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: a cartoonist? 434 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 2: Are you hell? What day is in Christmas Day? Set? Exactly? 435 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: Fish me the finest time in all of Harlem. So 436 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: he had sold a few cartoons our buddy Alfred in 437 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: New York and Boston, but he wasn't doing it full time. 438 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: It was kind of catches catch can where you still 439 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: have to have a day job. 440 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: Ben Can I just say you got pretty close Nail 441 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 2: in the neighborhood. We're in the Upper West Side, which 442 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: is you know, the little past Harlem. Thank you, sir, 443 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:51,719 Speaker 2: we know that. 444 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: A year prior to this, I love what you said 445 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: about it being a meek you. A year prior to 446 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: this moment, al had been in New York and he 447 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: was he got one of the golden geese of a 448 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: cartoonist at the time, a syndicated cartoon feature There's about 449 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: a pompous young jerk, a blowhard. But he didn't love it. 450 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: A real galute, a real poluca, a real peluca. 451 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 452 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: So he gave it up and he went back to Boston. 453 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: And it's a good thing he did, because he had 454 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: just gotten married and that's not the ideal long distance relationship. 455 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: Visit, that's right. So six months later he gets back 456 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: to the Big Apple to give it another go. At 457 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: this point, we are squarely in the midst of the 458 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: Great Depression. They didn't call it that at the time. 459 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: As you point out Off and Ben, fourteen million folks 460 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: were out of work in New York City. There were breadlines, 461 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: nearly a million jobless, with twenty nine New Yorkers potentially 462 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 2: dying of starvation every single year. But this fancy pants, 463 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 2: this high falutin character, riding around isolated from the horrors 464 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: of of New York City life behind the you know, 465 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 2: the protective glass of his limo, offered this hapless young 466 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 2: fellow ten dollars to do some drawings for him and 467 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: Kaplan or al CAPPIs he would later sign himself. Agreed, 468 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: of course. 469 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's such a flex Hello from my limousine, 470 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: you pull cartoonist, here's a tetta. 471 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 2: It was a big deal when he realized who it 472 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: was because this is a guy that was known, Like 473 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: to my point, earlier, the average comic strip reader might 474 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: not have known who this guy was. But this dude 475 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: is a comic writer artist. He knows who the big 476 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: players are, and when he realizes this, it's a big 477 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: revelation for him. 478 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah. So, initially they have a pretty 479 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: good relationship, you could even say mentor mentee. But by 480 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties they have been feuding for quite some time. 481 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: They had their own versions of the meeting story, and 482 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: these two versions began to increasingly diverge. McLean's magazine was 483 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: very interested in this, and on April first, nineteen fifty 484 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: they published both cartoonist version of the story. 485 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, they sure knew. The version that we ever counted 486 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: as far is a little bit of a combo deal, right, Yeah, 487 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: so Ham says from his account, Ham Fisher says exactly 488 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 2: what we had described earlier. 489 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: He agrees with the loose order of operations, but he 490 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: also says he also embellishes a bit on his own behalf. 491 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: He says, Look, I invited him for lunch in my limo. 492 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: I didn't tell him my name. I asked him what's 493 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: your favorite comic strip? And he said Joe Peluka. And 494 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: then eventually, when they went back to his place for lunch, 495 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: Cap sees a portrait inscribed to Ham and he goes, 496 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 1: why it's you. You are Ham Fisher. He begged me 497 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: for a job. I had an assistant. I didn't know 498 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: if I could afford another wink, very self aggrandized. 499 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, come give. 500 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: Us just like a few more details. 501 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: On this guy seems to think quite highly of himself. 502 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 2: Let's see, I took pity on him and gave him 503 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: a job lettering and inking. Many months later, I was 504 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 2: going on a week's vacation. Cap came up just as 505 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: I was leaving and demanded a fifty dollars a week raise. 506 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: I sneered that I wouldn't be able to go away 507 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: if he refused to work. I blew up. I fired 508 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: him and took the work with me. 509 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: And then he says, you know, he gets back from 510 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: vacation and he says, and Cap just kept calling me 511 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: begging for his job back. I got him a job 512 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: with the United Feature Syndicate and he started some kind 513 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: of hillbilly' strip called loel Abner. It was so similar 514 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: to the hill Billies I created in Joe Peluka. I 515 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: protested to the syndicate. Cap apologized and said he would 516 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: change it, and he never did. 517 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: Basically, I mean, to be fair, you can't really own 518 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: Hillbillies as a concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, and 519 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: you give the people what they are. If the Hillbilly 520 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: strips are doing well, you give them Hillbillies. 521 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: And so we go to Again. It's wild that this 522 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: is published at the same time in the same magazine. 523 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: It's confusing though, too, because like later we see another 524 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: statement from Fisher where he kind of contradicts what was 525 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: purported to be a statement from him in the first place, 526 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 2: Like it wasn't it him meant to have said that 527 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 2: he took six weeks vacation. I'm confused because then he 528 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 2: later has to say, I never took six weeks vacation 529 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: in my life. Yeah, it's it's like that. 530 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it's it's like that interview with Rick James 531 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: in The Chappelle Show where he says he never messed 532 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: with the couch and then he immediately he says, yeah, 533 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: messed up his couch to keep him lying. Yeah, there 534 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: is some self contradiction. Absolutely, Cap Fire's back, and he says, look, 535 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: Cam Fisher's story about picking me up in his car 536 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: after accosting me in New York. 537 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 2: Street is truthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. He is absolutely 538 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 2: galled by the implication that he was hired as a letturer, 539 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: because that was what considered I think, a more lowly position, 540 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: or like an entry level position, and he said, no, 541 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: I was hired as an artist. I was just as 542 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: skilled as anyone else, you know, working for the publication. Uh, 543 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: and that is what I was brought in to do. 544 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 2: He then gets real personal, saying that Fisher is himself 545 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 2: a fraud. He's not an artist at all. He's an 546 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 2: idea man and he cannot draw it all these except 547 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: for a few simple chalk talk So I love that tricks. 548 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: So when he says he took the drawings with him, 549 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: it's a pathetic claim. I never told him Joe Peluka 550 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: was my favorite strip. It's the kind of strip I deplore, 551 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: the glorification of punches and brutishness. Wow, what a they're 552 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: so bad? 553 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: He says, I was making nineteen bucks a week, and 554 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,959 Speaker 1: then later I'll set the record that too, Yeah, twenty 555 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: two bucks a week, while I was working for Fisher, 556 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: and he says, I drew all of his Sunday pages. 557 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: I created all of the characters. I wrote every line. 558 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: And that time he told you guys, he went on 559 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: a vacation. He wasn't gone for one week, he was 560 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: gone for six. He didn't leave me any money. We 561 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: had to live on what my wife was making, and 562 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: so I whipped up Lil Abner with my free time. Basically, 563 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: I sold the cartoon to United Features Syndicate. And that 564 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: part where he says he got me a job with 565 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: United is the part I am most bitter about. When 566 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: he found out I was with United, he threatened to 567 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: sue for three years. He tried everything to get me fired. 568 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: These guys hate. 569 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: Each other, they really do at this point. Yeah, it's 570 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: kind of a I mean rip by the way Brian 571 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: Wilson with the Beach Boys such of who I think 572 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: we all love and respect and meyer everything he brought 573 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 2: to music production, you know, songwriting, an absolute legend of 574 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: an individual who beefed openly with Mike Love of the 575 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: Beach Boys, who claimed that they wrote a lot of 576 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: those songs together. They suit each other. It was a 577 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: very similar rivalry with a lot of he said. He said, potential, 578 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: you know, revisionist history. There. I am team Brian Wilson 579 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 2: all the way. Mike Love I find to be insufferable. 580 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: Even when he was asked about Brian's passing, he made 581 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: it about him and immediately said, all these brilliant songs 582 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: we co created, no thanks. 583 00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, Brian Wilson just was a prophet in the world. 584 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 2: Music, out of the universe. I mean, I can't unbelievable, 585 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: especially with the hormone. We should do an episode on Brian. 586 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, and there is I don't typically like biopics, 587 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 2: but there is a film called I Believe, Love and 588 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 2: Mercy that is about Brian Wilson and it shows two 589 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: eras of his life. It's played by John Cusack and 590 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 2: the older and oh gosh, the kid who plays the 591 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 2: Preacher and there will be blood whose name is totally 592 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 2: escaping me. Paul Dana plays the younger Brian Wilson, and 593 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 2: I really love it. It's very artistically done and not 594 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 2: just like kind of a glaze fest like some of 595 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 2: these other biopics. 596 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of glaze fest and being wankish. Being wakish, 597 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: Fisher fires back and says, I've never had six weeks 598 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 1: vacation in my life. 599 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. That's the weirdest part because he the way it's 600 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: attributed in the publication, it made it sound like he 601 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 2: was saying while I was away on vacation, this stuff transpired. 602 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: So it may well be some creative license on the 603 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 2: part of the folks were counting these stories as well, 604 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: I think is getting Yeah. 605 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so Hamm is saying, look, when this al 606 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: guy worked for me, I never had more than a 607 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: week of vacation. He says, I'm amazed at caps effrontry. 608 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: His entire statement is false, and he says he's grossly 609 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 1: exaggerating this stuff, saying that I sued him, I made 610 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: a complaint because he was spreading this lie that he 611 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: created some of the Joe Peluca sequences. And he says 612 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: ultimately that company apologized to him when he when he 613 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: launched that complaint. And Noel, we were talking a little 614 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: bit about this offline. There there's a lot of back 615 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: and forth. We've given you sort of the broad strokes 616 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: of what happens. But speaking of strokes, there's there's a 617 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: saucy that we just have to share true scandal and 618 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: I think it's a real good way to Cap to 619 00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 1: al Cap. This one nice. 620 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it involves I don't know, man, it reminds 621 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 2: me of or at least in the conspiracy angle of 622 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 2: the what we're gonna get to in the discussion of 623 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 2: what actually happened those rogue Disney artists that like snuck 624 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 2: penises and the like Loyal made arts and like some 625 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 2: of those like you know, things that are real by 626 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: the way that they have been removed from a lot 627 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: of the reissue versions, streaming versions, But there definitely were 628 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 2: some naughty bits hidden in some Disney animations, and this 629 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: story involves some very naughty bits printed uh in the 630 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 2: lit l Abner cartoon. 631 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: That Disney stuff is an excellent comparison, all right. You 632 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: need to know that these guys are taking shots at 633 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: each other in their work. They are mocking each other 634 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: through the characters that they create and through the situations 635 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: those characters find themselves in. So they are again like 636 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: much slightly petty stuff getting hardcore dude fish relating Fisher 637 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: gets plastic surgery, and so Cap makes fun of him 638 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: in his comic, and they're constantly just just taking shots 639 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: at the bow of each other, and Fisher will not 640 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: stop talking trash. This is where we go to an 641 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: excellent observation by Morris Weiss, or Weiss who was interviewed 642 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: in the Comic Journal we mentioned earlier. 643 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 2: Fisher won't stop going on about the potential plagiarism, the 644 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 2: idea that Cap stole his characters. He just got real 645 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 2: personal and mudslingy and raving about, according to Weiss, Caps 646 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:47,399 Speaker 2: being a sex maniac. Right, and this notion he put 647 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 2: out there in the public that he was hiding pornographic 648 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 2: images and plain sight in his little Abner cartoons. And 649 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 2: so now we've got a full blown like censorship witch hunt, right, 650 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 2: I mean truly a moral panic, which wouldn't you say 651 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 2: to a degree one hundred percent? 652 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: Man, this is the He is trying so hard to 653 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: come off as the wronged party, but he sounds increasingly deluded. Yeah, yeah, 654 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: he said, great things are happening to me now. The 655 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 1: detective that al Cap had following me to get dirt 656 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: on me, well, that detective is now working for me. 657 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 2: What And there's a cover story in Time magazine that 658 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: blows the lid off of this whole thing. They said 659 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 2: that Fisher had certain panels of Little Labner enlarged and 660 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: zoomed in on circled graphic details in red that he 661 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,399 Speaker 2: believed were hidden or believed whatever, or was just being 662 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 2: a crazy person pornographic subliminal messages. I'm not just the 663 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's just he's like, look at the nose. Really, 664 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 2: think about the note, Think about what else looks like 665 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: you nose, y'all. And he distributed to editors of the 666 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 2: newspapers that were carrying the strips like he is on 667 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 2: a slow and burn, scorched earth campaign against this dude. 668 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 2: And he is saying that there's subliminal pornography designed to 669 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 2: undermine the youth of the nation and urges the newspaper 670 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 2: editors to drop caps cartoon entirely. 671 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: And keep in mind, even though he may be behaving 672 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: a bit irrationally, he is a big deal himself. He's 673 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: not just some guy writing to these papers. And in 674 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: the strip examples that he provides and disseminates, he says, quote, 675 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: this insane perverted pornography is from Little Abner. Yes, this 676 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: is what al capp has perpetrated for fifteen years. Are 677 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: the unsuspecting editors of American newspapers. Now normally right in 678 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 1: an attempt to create a moral panic, people will generally 679 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: ignore a lot of this stuff. But because we're in 680 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,720 Speaker 1: the dawn of McCarthyism and the Red Scare, and because 681 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: comic books are increased seemly targets of criticism, and as 682 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,439 Speaker 1: you said, all the safety of the children, this is assigned. 683 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: This problem is assigned to the Joint Committee on Comics. 684 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,800 Speaker 1: They're the folks who decide whether or not to censor comics. 685 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: And so now the idea is that ham Fisher has 686 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: escalated this Poluka argument so much so that he's not 687 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: just attacking his former protegee al Capp, he may have 688 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: consequences for the entire industry of comics. 689 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 2: Well, I mean he he. There's a committee assembled, the 690 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: Joint Joint Committee from I believe the Cartoonist Society, that 691 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: investigates this stuff and determines that the images that were 692 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 2: being submitted to them had been doctored or it's implied. 693 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 2: It's very much. It says here in the in the 694 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 2: findings of the report from Raymond. Alex Raymond, the president 695 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 2: at the time of the Cartoon Society, I am convinced 696 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 2: after seeing the photostats reproduced in the report of the 697 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 2: Joint Committee, compared with the original drawings of Lil Abner 698 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 2: from which the photostats were made. That someone distorted, cropped, faked, 699 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 2: wrongfully emphasized, and twisted your material during the process of 700 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 2: reproduction to make it appear pornographic. Such machinations could cause 701 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 2: the work of any contemporary artist to appear erotic, but 702 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 2: Fisher never copped to it. So make of that what 703 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 2: you will. But it sure seems like this dude was 704 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 2: getting increasingly unhinged and bitter, and it's exactly the kind 705 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 2: of thing someone would do in that state, right. 706 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: Right, exactly, And this is where we see you know, 707 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: we see echoes even now today with famous celebrity beefs. Right. 708 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: And the story goes on that we know that Fisher 709 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: never admits to doctoring the illustrations, even though everybody else 710 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: thinks he did. 711 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 2: He won't let it die either, He keeps bringing it 712 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,919 Speaker 2: back up, and then eventually there's some consequences for the guy. 713 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, because Kep has always denied that he had drawn 714 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: these offensive examples of what we call it subliminal pornography, 715 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: so he still became somewhat toxic in this environment. Right, 716 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: he wasn't able to work with people in his ordinarily 717 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: routine ways, and he kept appealing over and over again 718 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: to that thing. We just mentioned the Cartoonist Society to say, Hey, 719 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: this Fisher guy is crazy. 720 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 2: He is he trying to ruin me. Please do something. 721 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: Take it to the ethics committee, which is a real 722 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: thing the Cartoonist had there, and they said, all right, 723 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: we're going to call Fisher to account for his behavior. 724 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: We cannot prove that he made the forgeries, but we 725 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: definitely know he circulated them. We also we think he's 726 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: up to something hinky because they found handwritten comments in 727 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: the borders of these alleged pornographic depictions, and it was 728 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: definitely ham Fisher's handwriting. So he gets his he gets 729 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: yelled at, essentially, right, the Cartoonist, the Society's board of Governor's. 730 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,800 Speaker 2: Censures him more. There we go, Yeah, that's the right word. However, again, 731 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,280 Speaker 2: maybe because he wouldn't let it go, it keeps coming 732 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 2: back up, and then there are more investigations that look 733 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 2: into it and do ultimately rule that he doctored these. 734 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this doesn't have the happiest of endings. We're 735 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: on a real strange journey from just falling in love 736 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: with the word Peluka. But I would argue, knoweled that 737 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: there is a possibility of mental instability that may have 738 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: launched him on this strange crusade. 739 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 2: Absolutely right, Yeah, yeah, crusade. I mean, that's a great 740 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 2: way of putting it. And on January twenty fourth, nineteen 741 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 2: fifty five, Fisher gets summoned to a special meeting of 742 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 2: the Society, the Cartoon Society's Board of Governors to hear 743 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 2: charges presented by the Ethics Committee, who charged Fisher with 744 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 2: doctoring the drawings and circulating the forgeries in a blatant 745 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 2: attempt to discredit and ruin CAP acts which were determined 746 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 2: to endanger the creative well being of not only CAP 747 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 2: but every cartoon. This is the stuff that has farther 748 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,879 Speaker 2: reaching implications. It has to be nipped in the butt 749 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 2: here or else someone else could use these same tactics 750 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,879 Speaker 2: to ruin others in the industry just because they have 751 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 2: a personal vendetta. 752 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: It's kind of like deep fakes at the time. Absolutely yes, 753 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: And they're also saying, look, don't don't make us appear 754 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: to be a bunch of purved out James Joyce's that's it, 755 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: I promise it's so. Here is why we think there 756 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: may have been some sort of mental issues involved. On 757 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,760 Speaker 1: December twenty seventh, nineteen fifty five, Ham and Ham, Fisher 758 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: purposely overdoses on pills and he dies as a result. 759 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: And this is the only time. This is how the 760 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: feud ends, because Fisher takes it to his grave. The 761 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: story of Joe Peluka continues a little bit afterwards. For 762 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: four years after Fisher expired, one of his assistants, mo 763 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: lef drew the strip, and he had been doing the 764 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: cartoonist version of ghost writing since the late nineteen thirties. 765 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,719 Speaker 2: Well, let's also recall that Fisher was accused right, not 766 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 2: really being able to draw that well in the first place. 767 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:50,800 Speaker 1: And that is the strange, fascinating and disturbing story behind 768 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: the Great Peluca feud. 769 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 2: I really went some places, man, unexpected. Yeah, very much, Mike, 770 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 2: no doubt it. Really us have similar intersecting kind of 771 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 2: threads there. So huge thanks to research associate extraordinary Andrea 772 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,479 Speaker 2: for this one. This was a real whot. 773 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, big, big thanks to our super producer Max Peluka Williams. 774 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 2: Big thanks to A. J. 775 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:22,800 Speaker 1: Bahamas, Jacobs and of course uh Jonathan. Strictly I was 776 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: gonna do a joke aka the Quist, but I'm not. 777 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 2: I'm not in a bit of a peluca. No, No, 778 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,439 Speaker 2: he's not big enough to be a pooch. There we go. 779 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 2: He's a Kazukas. He's a Kazukas. Definitely a gazuka. 780 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, big, thanks to the roup. Dude's a ridiculous crime. 781 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, folks so much for tuning in. Join us 782 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,800 Speaker 1: in the future. We have, as always, some fresh baked 783 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: ridiculous history coming to you. No, Noel, can we bring 784 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: back the phrase poluca? Do you think we can just 785 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,280 Speaker 1: start deploying it in like work calls and stuff. 786 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 2: I think we should. We'll see a next time, folks. 787 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 788 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.