1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Science Stuff, a production of iHeartRadio. My 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: name is Hoorge Champ, and today on the program, we're 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: tackling the question are near death experiences real? A certain 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: percentage of the population, when they're close to dying, report 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: coming out of their bodies. Some feel like they enter 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: a tunnel with a bright light at the end of it, 7 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: and some report having vivid conversations with people that are 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: already dead. But is it all real? Are they a 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: sign that there isn't afterlife or something beyond death? Or 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: can it all be explained by science. We're going to 11 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: hear from someone who's been through this experience, a psychiatrist 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: that's been tracking this phenomenon for decades, and a neuroscientist 13 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: who's going to tell us what happens to your brain 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: during your last moments of life. So don't leave your 15 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: body just yet. Stay with us as we answer the 16 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: question are near death experiences real? Welcome to Science Stuff, Hi, everyone. 17 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: So they were tackling the tricky question of whether near 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: death experiences are real. And it's tricky because it's a 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: topic that is in that kind of gray area between 20 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: science and nonscience. It dits a little bit into the paranormal, 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: and it's also a deeply subjective personal experience, So we're 22 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: going to do our best to keep this as scientific 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: as possible. Now, a near death experience is something that 24 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: happens to some people and they've come extremely close to dying. 25 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: Maybe their heart stops during a surgery, or maybe they're 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: in a combat situation and they get shot and bleed out, 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: or maybe they're involved in an accident or a drug overdose. 28 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: But then they're brought back to life, and when they 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: come back, the report having seen or felt things that 30 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: are really interesting and unusual. This phenomenon has been studied 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: by several people, but most notably by a psychiatrist named 32 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: doctor Bruce Grayson. Doctor Grayson is now a Professor Emeritus 33 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: of psychiatry and neurobehavior at the University of Virginia, and 34 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: he has been collecting and cataloging accounts of near death 35 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: experiences for almost fifty years. Here's how he explains getting 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: interested in the subject. 37 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: I think as a psychiatrist who makes my living trying 38 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: to help people change their lives. What captured me most 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: about new death experiences is that their incredible ability to 40 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: create profound changes in people's lives. It's much more powerful 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: than anything the tools we have. 42 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: We asked doctor Grayson to be on the show, but unfortunately, 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: due to a medical situation, he is unable to do 44 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: an interview. But he did give us permission to use 45 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: clips from one of his lectures and to talk about 46 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: his work. And his work is very interesting because in 47 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: his career, doctor Grayson has collected accounts from hundreds of 48 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,839 Speaker 1: people who reported having near death experiences like this one 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: he got from a man named Bill Hernlund, a crash 50 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: rescue firefighter in the US Air Force who responded to 51 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: a call about a burning airplane and nearly died when 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: the plane exploded. Here's what he said. I was in darkness, 53 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: but fully conscious and vividly aware of my surroundings. I 54 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: would say some kind of tunnel that looked like what 55 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: a tornado funnel would be. From the inside. There was 56 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: a light in the distance, and I saw the spiraling 57 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 1: strings of blue green light coming and going like the 58 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: Aurora borealis. The light was drawing me to it. I 59 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: moved exceptionally fast down the tunnel. It seemed that time 60 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: was different or non existent. There. Wherever there was the 61 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: light was emanating from a being that was giving off 62 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: a very brilliant light as part of his essence. He 63 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: was beautiful to look at and projected the feelings of 64 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: unconditional love and peace. He asked, how do you feel 65 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: about your life? And how did you treat other people? 66 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: As he asked, every single event of my life, from 67 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: earliest childhood to the plane crash projected in front of me. 68 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: There were details concerning people and things that I had 69 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: forgotten about long ago. He told me to be in 70 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: peace and said that my work in this world was 71 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: not done yet and that I had to go back. 72 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: Pretty wild stuff. So, after collecting hundreds of stories like these, 73 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: doctor Grayson found that the stories had several things in common. 74 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: And here I asked a few of my friends to 75 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: read the accounts because I figured it'd be more interesting 76 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: than just having me read them. Here's what doctor Grayson 77 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: found first. In about half of the near death experiences 78 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: that he heard about, the person said that they were 79 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: able to think clearer and faster than usual. For example, 80 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,239 Speaker 1: here's how a man named John Whittaker described to doctor 81 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: Grayson what he saw when he almost died during pancreatic 82 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: and liver surgery. 83 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 3: I was aware of an enhanced state of consciousness in 84 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 3: which my mind was extremely active and alert to what 85 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 3: I was experiencing. I was very observant during the state, 86 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 3: and my thoughts seemed to go almost twice to the 87 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 3: normal speed. 88 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: So some near death experiencers, even though they're usually in 89 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: super stressful situations where they're literally dying, report feeling like 90 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: they could think super fast and super clearly, almost like 91 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: they're removed from the situation. Another thing in common that 92 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: doctor Grayson found in all of these near death experiences 93 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: was that three quarters of the people reported feeling a 94 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: change in their sense of time. For example, here's what 95 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: a man named Rob told doctor Grayson about the time 96 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: that he nearly died when he slipped and fell off 97 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: a ladder. 98 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 4: The actual fall was slowed way down, almost like a 99 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 4: series of camera steel pictures being taken a sort of 100 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 4: clickficial progression, and then slowing down dramatically increased my thinking time, 101 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 4: which resulted in me being able to size up how 102 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 4: I could maneuver the ladder. Not only did the fall 103 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 4: slow way down, but my thinking became very clear. There's 104 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 4: wonderful slowing down which allowed me to think clearly and 105 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 4: split seconds was phenomenal. 106 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: So during near death experiences, time slows down for some people, 107 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: like the world goes into slow motion or bullet time 108 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: from the matrix. Doctor Grayson also that in about two 109 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: thirds of the near death experiences he collected, the person 110 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: felt that they had extra vivid senses, meaning that they 111 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: were able to see or hear super clearly, or that 112 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: they could see or hear unique colors and sounds. For example, 113 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: here's how a woman named Jane Smith described to doctor 114 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: Grayson what she saw when she almost died from a 115 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: bad reaction to anesthesia when she was giving birth to 116 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: her baby. 117 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 5: I found myself in a meadow, and this was a 118 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 5: beautiful green meadow with beautiful flowers, lit with this glorious, 119 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 5: radiant light, like no light we've ever seen. There was 120 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 5: sky grass, and I remember so well looking at them 121 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 5: and thinking I have never seen some of these colors. 122 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 5: I realized I was seeing the inner light of all 123 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 5: the growing things. It was not reflected light, but a 124 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 5: gentle inner glow that shone from each and every plant. Overhead. 125 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 5: The sky was clear and blue, the light infinitely more 126 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 5: beautiful than any light we know. 127 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: So some near death experiencers also get a heightened sense 128 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,679 Speaker 1: of awareness. They can see tiny little details all around 129 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: them that they otherwise wouldn't even notice. They can see 130 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: things much more vividly, even though again they're in an 131 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: extremely dangerous and deadly situation. Next, doctor Grayson found out 132 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: about a quarter of all the near death experiences involved 133 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: a life review, which is basically when your life flashes 134 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: before your eyes. For example, here's what a man named 135 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: Greg Nome told doctor Grayson that he saw when he 136 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: almost drowned going over a waterfall. 137 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 6: The images began with the living color scenes of my childhood. 138 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 6: It was as if someone else was running the projector 139 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 6: I was looking my life objectively for the first time ever. 140 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 6: I saw myself sitting in a baby's highchair and picking 141 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 6: up some food with my hand and throwing it on 142 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 6: the floor. Next, I saw myself at a lake in 143 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 6: a summer vacation we took when I was about three 144 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 6: or four years old. I was amazed at how many 145 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 6: scenes I was seeing that had long since been forgotten. 146 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 6: I also saw traumatic events in various ways. The images 147 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 6: continued at high speeds, Then the images ceased. There was 148 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 6: only darkness and a feeling of a short pause, like 149 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 6: something was about to happen. 150 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 151 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 7: So. 152 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Near death experiencers also report seeing their life flash before 153 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: their eyes. This is very commonly portrayed in movies and 154 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: TV shows where someone's about to die and they suddenly 155 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: see this collage or montage of all the scenes from 156 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: their lives, and a lot of people report seeing things 157 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: they thought they had forgotten or things they feel they 158 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to remember. Finally, according to doctor Grayson, 159 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: about eighty percent of the people who report near death 160 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: experiences say they had an out of body experience, where 161 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: they say they could actually see their bodies from outside 162 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: of themselves, usually from the ceiling. For example, here's what 163 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: a woman named Jane told doctor Grayson about the time 164 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: she almost died during labor. 165 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 8: My blood pressure dropped and nurses were in a panic. 166 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 8: When I heard an nurse say, oh my god, we're 167 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 8: losing her. I was out of my body at once 168 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 8: and on the ceiling of the operating room, looking down 169 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 8: watching them work on a body. It took me a 170 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 8: while to recognize the person I was viewing was me. 171 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 8: I watched my doctors arrive and procedures being done, heard 172 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 8: conversations and saw my baby being born. 173 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: So some near death experiencers also reported out of body experiences, 174 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: meaning they felt like they left their bodies and they 175 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: floated up to the ceiling and they could see themselves 176 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: being operated on or being resuscitated. So those are some 177 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: of the common themes among the near death experiences or 178 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: MDes like doctor Grayson recorded. Now, what's interesting about these 179 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: near death experiences is that they seem to happen across 180 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: different cultures and across different times. Here's how doctor Grayson 181 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: describes it. 182 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: We found over the past fifty years studying NDEs from 183 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: different cultures, different religious groups, and throughout the centuries that 184 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 2: the cultural background and your religious background do not affect 185 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: whether you're going to have an experience or what type 186 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: you're going to have, but it does influence the metaphors 187 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 2: you use to describe it. 188 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: So what doctor Grayson is saying is that near death 189 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: experiences seem to happen in different cultures, but different cultures 190 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: might describe them in different ways. For example, people from 191 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: one culture might describe the feeling of going through a 192 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: tunnel and seeing a light at the end of it, 193 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: but other cultures that are not as familiar with tunnels, 194 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: might describe them as going into a well or a cave, 195 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: or even through a pipe. And what's even more interesting 196 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: is that the people who report near death experiences, as 197 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: strange as those experiences might be, say that they felt 198 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: very real. In fact, some people say that their near 199 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: death experience feels more real than real. Here's how doctor 200 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: Grayson describes it. 201 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: I've had people look at me after an experience to say, 202 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: my talking to God in the NDE is more real 203 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: than my talking to you right now. 204 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: Now. 205 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: I'm not sure what that means. They don't know how 206 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: to judge what's more real than something else, but they 207 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: consistently say that. 208 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 5: Now. 209 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: Doctor Grayson and his team of researchers have tested people 210 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: have had near death experiences with psychological tests that can 211 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: measure to some degree whether a memory is real or 212 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: whether you just dreamed it or hallucinated it. These are 213 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: tests that are used, for example, to tell if a 214 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: kid who says they've gone through a traumatic experience actually 215 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: went through that experience or if they imagined it. Here's 216 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: what doctor Grayson found. 217 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 2: We find that the memories of the NDEs are like 218 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: the memories of real events, not at all as the 219 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: memories of imagined events. In fact, on this objective scale, 220 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,479 Speaker 2: they look more real than the memories of real events. 221 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: It's more real than real. We did this research at UVA. 222 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: It was also replicated at the University of Liasian Belgium 223 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: and the University of Padua in Italy. And in fact, 224 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: the Italian group also measured the brain waves of people 225 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: as they are remembering their events, and they reported that 226 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 2: the brain waves of people remembering NDEs look like people 227 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: remembering real events, not like people remembering dreams or hallucinations. 228 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: So, as far as the researchers could tell, near death 229 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: experiences are indistinguishable or basically the same as real experiences. 230 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: Okay to recap. Near death experiences are strange and sometimes 231 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: impossible experiences that happen to people as they're dying or 232 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: as they're about to die, and they seem to be 233 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: a consistent and widespread phenomenon. According to doctor Grayson and others, 234 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: about ten to twenty percent of people who have close 235 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: brushes with dying report having a near death experience. Now, 236 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: some people say that because these experiences happen to so 237 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: many people and because they are sometimes inexplicable, they are 238 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: a clue that there is something beyond death, that somehow 239 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: our consciousness or our spirits can leave our body, or 240 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: talk to dead people, or exist out of time. And others, 241 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: of course, say that this can all be explained by 242 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: science and that there isn't anything supernatural going on. So 243 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna do two things for the rest of the episode. 244 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: In the next segment, we're gonna talk to a neuroscientist 245 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: who's gonna tell us what are some of the things 246 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: in these near death experiences that science and brain science 247 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: can explain. And then in the last segment, we're gonna 248 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: talk about some of the things that science currently can't 249 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: explain about near death experiences. So let's dig into the 250 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: science and the mystery of near death experiences. But first 251 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. You're listening to science stuff. Hey, 252 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: welcome back. So we talked about what near death experiences are, 253 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: how often they happen, and how they feel more real 254 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: than real to the people that have them. I mean though, 255 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: that there are people whose consciousness has left their bodies 256 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: or that have gotten a glimpse of the afterlife. Like 257 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: I said, we're gonna do two things. First, we're gonna 258 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: talk to a neuroscientist to see what he thinks could 259 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: be behind these experiences that some people have. And then 260 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: later in the program, we're gonna talk about the things 261 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: that science can't explain about near death experiences. So to 262 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: break it down for us, I called my friend neuroscientist 263 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: Dwayne Godwin. Doctor Godwin is a professor of neuroscience at 264 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: Wake Forest University specializing in neurophysiology, addiction, epilepsy, and traumatic 265 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: brain injury. Doctor Godwin and I also co wrote a 266 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: book together called Out of Your Mind, which you should 267 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: check out. Here's my conversation with neuroscientists Dwayne Godwin. Thanks 268 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: for talking with us today. 269 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: Oh, it's my pleasure. 270 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: Have you had any near death experiences lately? 271 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: I try to. 272 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 7: Avoid those as much as possible. I think most people 273 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 7: do well. 274 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: First of all, maybe for folks, what is a near 275 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: death experience to a neuroscientist like you, Wow? 276 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: Well, you know. 277 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 7: Near death experiences are these events that happen to people 278 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 7: where they see these really interesting and unusual things and 279 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 7: they bring these stories back from this rush with their 280 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 7: own potential death. There is this concept that it's probably 281 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 7: based in something that is happening in your brain. At least, 282 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 7: that's all that scientists can really speak to. It's not 283 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 7: to say that people's experiences aren't real to them, but 284 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 7: a lot of the evidence suggests that these experiences are 285 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 7: rooted in physical workings of the brain. You know, it's 286 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 7: not that hard to explain that when something weird like 287 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 7: that is happening to you, and especially when it's happening 288 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 7: to your brain, that your brain is going to try 289 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 7: to make sense of it, just like it tries to 290 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 7: make sense of everything else. 291 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: Okay, here, doctor Godwin is talking about the idea that 292 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: near death experiences are caused by what is happening to 293 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: your brain in certain situations, because the one thing that 294 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: all near death experiences have in common is that they 295 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: happen near death. Here's how doctor Godwin describes it. 296 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 7: They happen under extreme stress, and what's more stressful than dying. So, 297 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 7: you know, we're talking about things like oxygen deprivation, changes 298 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 7: in brain chemistry, the electrical activity going haywire not functioning normally, 299 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 7: so it's producing these weird sensations and perceptions. It's like, 300 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 7: you know, imagine your computer suddenly losing power. You might 301 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 7: get some weird glitches and error messages before it completely 302 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 7: shuts down. Is that kind of thing that's happening in 303 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 7: the brain during a near death experience. 304 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: So near death experiences could just be how some people's 305 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: brains react when they're dying. Now, this, of course is 306 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: hard to prove because it's hard to predict when someone 307 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: is going to have a near death experience, and so 308 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: it's really hard to test for it, at least in 309 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: a consistent and ethical way. But there is something scientists 310 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: can do. 311 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 7: And there are several things that scientists have done to 312 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 7: try to provide a neurological explanation. So, for example, there 313 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 7: are overlaps with other brain states like those that are 314 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 7: induced by certain drugs and even some forms of epilepsy, 315 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 7: and all of those similarities suggest a common neurological mechanism. 316 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: So how scientists try to explain near death experiences is 317 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: by pointing out common neurological mechanisms or things that happen 318 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: in the brain that are similar to near death experiences, 319 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: because then you can infer or reason that near death 320 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: experiences are caused by the same thing. So we're going 321 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: to break it down into two categories. The first is 322 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: the out of body experience, and the second are the 323 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: visions that people have during near death experiences. We'll start 324 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: with the out of body experience and actually scientists have 325 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: a name for it. It's called autoscopy. 326 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 7: Autoscopy is this really interesting phenomenon where people have the 327 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 7: sensation of seeing themselves from outside of their own body. 328 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 7: So it's like you're watching a movie or yourself, but 329 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 7: you're also somehow still in the movie. 330 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: This concept of otoscopy is important because you can get it, 331 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: not just in near death experiences. For example, about six 332 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: percent of people with epilepsy report feeling like they leave 333 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: their bodies when they have seizures. And actually scientists think 334 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: they found this specific part of your brain that gives 335 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: you that out of body experience. Here's what doctor Godwin said. 336 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 7: Scientists have been studying otoscopy. They've penpointed a specific area 337 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 7: of the brain that seems to be involved. And this 338 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 7: area is really important because it helps you sort of synthesize, 339 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 7: you know, your sense of body and the rest of 340 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 7: your experiences. It's likely integrating the sense reinformation to create 341 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 7: a coherent sense of their body in space. It's called 342 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 7: the temporal parietal junction and it's located roughly above and 343 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 7: behind your ears. 344 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: So this area of your brain, the temporal parordal junction, 345 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: is a part of your brain that gives you that 346 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: sense of being in your body. It takes everything your 347 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: eyes and ears are seeing and hearing about the world, 348 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: and everything your skin and muscles are feeling, and it 349 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: tell us the rest of your brain okay, this is 350 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: where you are. And scientists note, this is what that 351 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: part of the brain does, because you can turn it off. 352 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: The note is that when people have epileptic seizures in 353 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: that part of the brain, those people suddenly feel like 354 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: they're leaving their bodies. They've also done experiments where scientists 355 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: can scramble or tweak that brain area and cause someone 356 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: to have an out of body experience. Here's how doctor 357 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: Godwin explains it. 358 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 7: So there was this fascinating study where scientists use transcranial 359 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 7: magnetic stimulation. I'll call it TMS just because it's a 360 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 7: long word. TMS is basically a way to temporarily disrupt 361 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 7: the activity of specific brain regions using magnetic pulses. And 362 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 7: so these pulses scramble brain activity and when they targeted 363 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 7: the temporal parietal junction, people have trouble sensing the position 364 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 7: of their own limbs even when they could see them. 365 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: Wait, this sense like if I look at my arm, 366 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: I can I have the feeling that it's my arm, 367 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: that I can contry that it's a part of me. 368 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. 369 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 7: Yeah, But when you take out this particular brain area 370 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 7: in your ability to sort of integrate that sense of 371 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 7: your body is disrupted. 372 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: So scientists can actually scramble this area of the brain 373 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: called the temporal parietical junction using special electromagnets and give 374 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: you that sense of not being in your body or 375 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: not knowing where your body is. Could that be what's 376 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: happening in a near death experience? And the idea is 377 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: that maybe when your body is freaking out because it's 378 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: dying or close to death, then somehow that part of 379 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: the brain gets affected or what. 380 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 7: Yes, you know, nobody knows for sure, so we have 381 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 7: to be very careful about that. But I would propose 382 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 7: that TMS scrambling your brain is not that different than 383 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 7: death kind of scrambling your brain. 384 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: Okay, So now the question is what could be scrambling 385 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: that area during a near death experience? And this ties 386 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: into what is happening to your brain? In general when 387 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: you're close to dying. 388 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 7: Brain death is a very complex thing that even physicians 389 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 7: don't always get right. They don't always make the call correctly. 390 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 7: It's not even sure that the brain dies all at once, right, 391 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 7: So some parts of your brain can die and other 392 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 7: parts remain alive and kicking it. But generally what happens, though, 393 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 7: is that the brain relies on a lot on a constant 394 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 7: supply of oxygen. The estimates are that the brain uses 395 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 7: about twenty percent of the body's oxygen, and when that 396 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 7: supply is cut off, things start to go downhill pretty quickly. 397 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: Without oxygen, doctor Godwin says, neurons lose the ability to 398 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: control how ions like calcium and potassium go into and 399 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: out of the neurons. And these are the same chemicals 400 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: that neurons use to activate how they talk to each other. 401 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: So basically, when you stop breathing or your heart stops, 402 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: your brain cells go a little haywire. How haywire Here's 403 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: how doctor Godwin puts it. 404 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: Well. 405 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 7: Recent research suggests that there's a surge of activity in 406 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 7: the brain right around the time of death. You know, 407 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 7: the brain doesn't just quietly fade away or just turn off. 408 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 7: It's a complicated set of events happening as it shuts down. 409 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 7: There's a lot of stuff happening with brain chemicals. 410 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: So when the neurons start to go hey wire, they 411 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: cause other chemicals to go up, like the chemical serotonin. 412 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 7: Serotonin, for example. We know that those levels spike in 413 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 7: the brain at the time of death, and this has 414 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 7: been observed in animals. Scientists do these experiments where animals 415 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 7: croak and when their heart ceases. They've observed that there 416 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 7: have been these spikes and serotonin activity. 417 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: Your brain makes more serotonin or releases more Yeah. 418 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 7: Yeah, When I say spike, I mean like a rush 419 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 7: of serotonin happens right around the moment of death. They've 420 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 7: actually measured this increase as the animals were dying and serotonins. 421 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 7: But it's also linked to sensory perception, and this is 422 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 7: relevant because drugs like LSD act on the serotonin system. 423 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: And this is where things start to get a little trippy. 424 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: We know that serotonin goes up in your brain when 425 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: you're dying, and we know that drugs like LSD and 426 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: magic mushrooms that give you hallacinations also affect how your 427 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: body reacts to serotonin. 428 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 7: LSD and magic mushrooms, and these cause hallucinations. They affect 429 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 7: serotonin receptors in the brain, so that spike, that big 430 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 7: rush of serotonin at death is not that far fetched 431 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 7: to think that, hey, you know, maybe my brain is 432 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 7: tripping a little bit could be contributing to the altered 433 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 7: perceptions and all of those weird, vivid experiences that people 434 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 7: report with these near death experiences. 435 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: Meaning like, as my brain is shutting down dying, I 436 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: basically have the same experience as if I just took 437 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: a bunch of LSD or magic mushrooms. Yeah, okay, So 438 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: to recap scientists like doctor Godwin think that near death 439 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: experiences can be explained by what's happening in your brain. 440 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: When you die or are close to dying, things can 441 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: go haywire, which might turn off the parts of your 442 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: brain that give you that sense of being in your body, 443 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: and your brain also gets flooded with serotonin, which acts 444 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 1: on the same parts of your brain as LSD and 445 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: magic mushrooms. Another interesting clue is an experiment done in 446 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen that very directly tested whether drugs can give 447 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: you the same experience as near death experiences, and this 448 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: involved a chemical called dimethyl tryptomine, or DMT, which is 449 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: the active ingredient in ayahuasca, a psychedelic drink used in 450 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: South American spiritual and shamanistic rituals. Here's how doctor Godwin 451 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: describes it. 452 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, so you had healthy volunteers given either a placebo 453 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 7: or DMT. So what they found was that the experiences 454 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 7: reported by people who took DMT had a really striking 455 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 7: overlap with the experiences reported by people had near death experiences. 456 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 7: Things like feelings of joy, a sense of timelessness, and 457 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 7: even in some cases out of body sensations. These were 458 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 7: more common in the DMT group compared to the placebo group, So, 459 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 7: you know, very telling. But it doesn't really prove that 460 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 7: nds are solely caused by something like DMT, but it 461 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 7: does suggest that similar neurochemical mechanisms might be at play, 462 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 7: and it provides some additional evidence that the experiences are 463 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 7: rooted in brain activity. 464 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: And so that basically explains what near death experiences are. 465 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: But like I said before, there are some things about 466 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: them that science can't explain. So when we come back, 467 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: we're going to talk to doctor Godwin about what those 468 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: things are and whether we'll ever solve those mysteries. 469 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 6: Stick with us. 470 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to science stuff. Hey, welcome back. 471 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 8: Okay. 472 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: We talked about what near death experiences are and how 473 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: science can explain a lot of things that people say 474 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: happen to them when they're close to dying, and now 475 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what science can't explain about 476 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: near death experiences, because there are things people say are 477 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: still inexplicable. The first is that about a quarter of 478 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: near death experiencers report seeing or talking to people that 479 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: are dead. For example, here's a well known writer and 480 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: war reporter, Sebastian Junger, author of The Perfect Storm, describing 481 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: what he saw when he almost died when he lost 482 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: two thirds of the blood in his body due to 483 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: pancreatic aneurysm. 484 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 9: I became aware of a dark pit below me and 485 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 9: to my left. The pit was the purest black and 486 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 9: so infinitely deep that it had no real depth at all. 487 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 9: It exerted a pole that was slow but unanswerable, and 488 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 9: I knew that if I went into the hole, I 489 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 9: was never coming back. And I was feeling myself getting 490 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 9: pulled more and more sternly into the darkness. And just 491 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 9: when it seemed unavoidable. I became aware of something else. 492 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 9: My father. He'd been dead eight years, but there he 493 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 9: was not so much floating as simply existing above me 494 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 9: and slightly to my left. My father exuded reassurance. It 495 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 9: seemed to be inviting me to go with him. It's okay, 496 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 9: there's nothing to be scared of. He seemed to be saying, 497 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 9: don't fight it, I'll take care of you. 498 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: Why do the dying and only the dying, Sebastian Junger writes, 499 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: keep seeing the dead in their last days and hours. 500 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: The other thing people say can't be explained by science 501 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: are when people who go through a near death experience 502 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: seem to know things they shouldn't know. For example, when 503 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: someone has an out of body experience and they report 504 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: knowing what was happening in the room or even in 505 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: the next room when they were unconscious and dying, or 506 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: when people are told secrets or things that haven't happened 507 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: yet by dead people they meet in their near death experience. 508 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: Here's doctor Grayson describing one such experience. 509 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: One fellow I interviewed was hospitalized with severe pneumonia, and 510 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: he had one particular nurse, Anita, who was about his 511 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 2: age and one day she told him she was going 512 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: to be taking a long weekend off. While she was gone, 513 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: he had another respiratory arrest where he had to be resuscitated, 514 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 2: and during that one he had a near death experience 515 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 2: and he found himself in a beautiful pastoral scene. To 516 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: a surprise, Anita came walking towards him. She said, Jack, 517 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: you need to go back to your body, and I 518 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: want you to find my parents and tell them that 519 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 2: I'm sorry I wrecked the red MGB. When he later 520 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: woke up back in his body, it turned that his nurse, Anita, 521 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 2: had taken the weekend off to celebrate her twenty first birthday, 522 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 2: and her parents surprised her with the gift of her 523 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: red MGB. She got excited, jumped in the car for 524 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: a test drive, lost control and crashed into a telephone 525 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: pole and died instantly, just a few hours before his 526 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 2: near death experience. Now, how would he have known that 527 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: she died, or let alone how she died, and yet 528 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: he did. 529 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: That is pretty spooky. So what does science make of 530 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: examples like these? I asked doctor Godwin, and he didn't 531 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: seem that concern about cases like these. 532 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 7: This is what he said, I would say there may 533 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 7: be things about near death experiences that science can't yet explain, 534 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 7: or for which there there's not enough information to form 535 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 7: a rational hypothesis. Or maybe it's just that we don't 536 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 7: have the tools yet necessary to ask the question. 537 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: Basically, doctor Godwin says, just because science can't explain a 538 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: specific event, it doesn't mean that there isn't a reasonable explanation. 539 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: Maybe we see dead people because we're primed to think 540 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: about them if we are close to dying, or in 541 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: the case of the man who saw his dead nurse, 542 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: maybe he regained consciousness briefly and overheard someone talking about her. 543 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: In those cases, it can't just be that we don't 544 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: have enough information. But it did get doctor Godwin to 545 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: admit there is something science may never be able to 546 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: explain about near death experiences, and that is why do 547 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: we have them? Well, what would be the evolutionary basis 548 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: for near death experiences? Like why would that be something 549 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: that we evolved to have? 550 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't know that it necessarily conveys an evolutionary 551 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 7: advantage because think about it, it would be very rare 552 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 7: for someone during the course of evolution to be able 553 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 7: to come back from death. It's only now, more recently, 554 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 7: when we have all these wonderful machines and drugs that 555 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 7: can help stimulate and bring us back, that we would 556 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 7: even note that these experiences happen. So from an evolutionary perspective, 557 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 7: it's almost like it doesn't matter. I guess you could 558 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 7: postulate that maybe some of those same genes that are 559 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 7: producing hallucinations during death, or genes that were very important 560 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 7: in life, and just at the end we get this nice, 561 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 7: non selective experience that helps us make sense of things. 562 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 7: What we can say, though, is that NDEs are real. 563 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 7: You know, they're real in the sense that people genuinely 564 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 7: experience them. They come back from this brush with their 565 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 7: own mortality with these stories, and there's no reason to 566 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 7: feel or to expect that they're being dishonest about it. 567 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 7: The emotions they feel when this happens to them, those 568 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 7: are real. They're not just making them up. But the 569 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 7: dance suggests that these experience sorts, at least the ones 570 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 7: that we can track down, seem to be rooted in 571 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 7: how the brain works, not necessarily evidence of an afterlife 572 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 7: or any sort of supernatural realm, but it's kind of 573 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 7: a reminder of the incredible complexity of the brain and 574 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 7: the way we have this amazing ability to create vivid 575 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 7: and meaningful experiences. 576 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: All right, I think that's a pretty good answer to 577 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: the question. Our near death experience is real, the real 578 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: to the people that have them, even if it's all 579 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: just happening in their brains. Thanks for joining us, See 580 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: you next time. A big thanks to doctor Grayson and 581 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: the University of Virginia Lifetime Learning Office of Engagement, and 582 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: to Sebastian Junger. The audio excerpt is copyright twenty twenty 583 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: four by Sebastian Junger and courtesy of Simon and Schuster. 584 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: Audio from the audiobook In My Time of Dying by 585 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: Sebastian Junger, right by the author, published by Simon and 586 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: Schuster Audio, a division of Simon and Schuster Incorporated. Used 587 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: with permission and thanks to my friends for reading those 588 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: near death experience accounts. Monica, Paul Andres Vivan and Suluka. 589 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: You've been listening to science stuff. The production of iHeartRadio 590 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: written and produced by me Or hitch Ham, executive producer 591 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: Jerry Rowland, and audio engineer and mixer Kasey Peckram, and 592 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: you can follow me on social media just search for 593 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: PhD comics and the name of your favorite platform. Be 594 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, 595 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and please 596 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: tell your friends we'll be back next Wednesday with another episode.