1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Trump nominated in an oil industry 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: executive as his pick for Energy secretary. 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 2: We have such a great show for you today. 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: The Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson joins us to discuss 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: Trump's absolutely insane cabinet. 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: Then we will talk. 9 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: To the Brennan Centers Catherine Ebright about Trump's plans to 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: invoke the Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight. 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 3: But first the news Somali, you want to talk the resistance. 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 3: I think I am resistant to ever wanting to talk about. 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 3: Tell me make your case for me. 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: Okay, So before we started recording, I was giving you 15 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: a hard time because I want to talk about the 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: resistance and you said resistance is cringe. 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 4: I do. 18 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 3: I said, it's a bad brand that we shouldn't continue using, 19 00:00:59,240 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 3: is what I said. 20 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: And I want to make the case for earnestness right now. Look, 21 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: there is a thing that you and I both sometimes 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: do of wanting to be the cool kids. But we 23 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: are in a moment here and we're not there yet, 24 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: and we all have to sort of state ourselves. But 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: we're going to be in a moment where there's going 26 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: to be a lot of stuff that the government is. 27 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: Going to do, or Donald Trump is going to do 28 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 2: to our government. 29 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: That we are going to have to be a bull 30 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: war against and resist. And I think that one of 31 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: the least helpful things we can do is to dismiss things, 32 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: even like the idea of resistance. So there were a 33 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: lot of pieces this week written by some very smart 34 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: people about sort of what does it mean to be 35 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: resistant and should we even use that word? And I 36 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: just want to make a case here for earnestness. Part 37 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: of the ethos of trump Ism is this idea that 38 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: nothing matters, this kind of nihilistic we were talking about 39 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: it earlier, this black pilling, the idea that these things 40 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: are ironic, that nothing matters, that we shouldn't care what 41 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: happens to other people. 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: I wouldn't characterize that as black pilled, because that's not 43 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 3: what black pilots is. 44 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: Okay, explain to us what black pilled is. 45 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 3: That's when your ideology is so poisoned by so many 46 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 3: things on the Internet that no one could ever make 47 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 3: a clear distinction between whether you're left right, libertarian or whatever. 48 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: It's just so all over the place that it cannot 49 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 3: be mapped. 50 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: So great, but the idea is that I think it's 51 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: important for Democrats to be the opposite of black pilt, 52 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: to be four things. It's easy to reject everything. It's 53 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: hard to believe in things, especially right now. And I 54 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: believe in democracy. 55 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: I believe. I know you're rolling your eyes, but I'm not. 56 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 4: I believe in all this. I'm with you right now. 57 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: I think we're in a moment right now where a 58 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: lot of us are really in despair. And I want 59 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: to talk about this article because in it is a 60 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: bunch of really good news. And for those of you 61 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 1: who didn't read this Rebecca Tracter article in your magazine. 62 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: She talks about how on Thursday, after Trump was re elected, Indivisible, 63 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: which is a really good organization, and the Working Families Party, 64 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: did a call and they drew more than one hundred 65 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: and thirty seven thousand people. That call went on for hours. Okay, 66 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: a woman who was part of it said she didn't 67 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: get to speak until ten PM, and people stayed on 68 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: and the attendance grew. People are not only seeking community, 69 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: but ways to engage okay, And then I want to 70 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: talk about Amanda Littman, a frequent guest on this podcast. 71 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: She runs an organization called Run for Something, which is 72 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: an organization that supports young, progressive first time candidates running 73 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: for state and local office. As you know, as we 74 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: talk about on this podcast all the time, stay and 75 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: local office are really the keys to enacting policy, to 76 00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: protecting people. 77 00:03:59,600 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: Okay. 78 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: So she says that in the first Trump inauguration day, 79 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: she said she hoped that our organization would carry on 80 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: doing consequential work even without resistance two point zero, which 81 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: I did not expect to see. Seven days later, seven 82 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: thousand people had signed up with Run for Something, seven 83 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: times the number it had drawn the week it launched 84 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: on Trump's first inauguration day. Seven times okay, and that 85 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: was just after Trump was re elected. So I just 86 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: want to point out, like, this is a very dark 87 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: moment for a lot of us, but there are a 88 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: lot of green shoots right. People understand what another Trump 89 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: administration means, and we see women at the grassroots and 90 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: men trying to push back, and so I just want 91 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: to make the case for earnestness. I'm not even a 92 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: fan of earnestness. But I think at this moment we 93 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: have to care. 94 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: Okay, did you die? Are you there? 95 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 4: I'm fined. I just don't. 96 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 3: I just don't want to call it the resistance, That's 97 00:04:59,040 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: all I'm saying. 98 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: We could call it the case for caring. Okay. 99 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 3: I think this is just the same way that the 100 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 3: word liberal became a bit of poisoning and we used 101 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 3: progressive instead of other things. I just think it's not 102 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 3: the best brand anyway. 103 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: Speaking of brands. 104 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 3: Yes, So with Trump's lead into the manisphere, he went 105 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 3: to the manliest of sports UFC. You know, where men 106 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: hug each other for a long periods of time. Is 107 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 3: what I noticed whenever I see it on the TV. 108 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: What'd you see here, Molly? 109 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Trump went to the UFC fight. UFC has 110 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: been part of trump Ism. And I want to talk 111 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: about this idea that politics is downstream of culture. This 112 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: is an idea that we kind of got from Andrew Breitbart, 113 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: and it comes from sort of Obama era, where you 114 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: had a politician who was a meshed with the culture. 115 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: You had that to some degree with Harris, but you had. 116 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: This also with Trump, and I think because it didn't 117 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: happen in traditional media venues. A lot of us missed 118 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: it because it happened on podcasts and streaming and YouTube 119 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: and Twitch. But Trump has this relationship with these sports 120 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: and also with the kind of health and Wellness space 121 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: influencers which really did help him get elected. 122 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: And helped him win some women. 123 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: One of the ways in which Trump had this relationship 124 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: with health and Wellness space people is that he got 125 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: endorsed by RFK Junior. RFK Junior delivered him some voters, 126 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: many of whom want to be able to drink raw 127 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: milk and not get vaccinated anyway. 128 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: Sort Of following up on this in. 129 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: The Everything Trump Touches Dies genre, so photo of Trump 130 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: and his people on his plane eating McDonald's RFK Junior 131 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: drinking a coke, eating a quarter pounder on Trump Force 132 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: one discuss. 133 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: A lot of people are saying saying that this is 134 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 3: Trump testing if OURK will bed the dee. I personally 135 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 3: just think this is just stupidity as usual. 136 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it is interesting though that this is something 137 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: where we know, like Ourk's brand is based on like 138 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: not doing things like this, so you know, eating organic 139 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: food and eat and raw milk and et cetera, et cetera. 140 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: And this is a pretty star contrast. 141 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 3: Doesn't get more organic than when you pick up roadkill 142 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: on the side of the road. 143 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: That's all that's right, and numerous roadkill stories. 144 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: So I am without words though it does seem it 145 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: does seem kind of hypocritical. 146 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: So mommie, this Mannion Musk, that's the first buddy who's 147 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: coming around with Trump everywhere he goes his Tesla cars. 148 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: Interesting story here where you see. 149 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: It's sort of interesting, right, Tesla vehicles. This is according 150 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: to a recent icy cars study that analyzed data from 151 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: the US Fatality Analysis Reporting System, which is called FARS 152 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: in case you were wondering, study conducted aunt Tesla's from 153 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: the twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two vehicles focused on 154 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: crashes between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty two that resulted 155 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: in occupant fatalities. Tesla vehicles have a fatal crash rating 156 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: of five point six billion miles driven. According to study, 157 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: they are the most fatal car. It is Tesla's then, 158 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: kias than buicks. 159 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: And I'm not very surprised. 160 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 3: It's almost like this guy who rails against regulation isn't 161 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: very careful moves fast and breaks things as cars that break. 162 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it does not seem so surprising to me. 163 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: But no, you know, as somebody whose wife every time 164 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: she sees me get near a tesla or we get ed, 165 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: what she says, Oh, great, we're driving. 166 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 4: It a bomb? 167 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 3: Why did she say that? Because the batteries explode. You've 168 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 3: experienced this yourself with an electric car battery. 169 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: Yes, it did, but you didn't. We didn't die. We 170 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: were okay, yes, but it did explode. 171 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 4: But they they do explode. It is bad. 172 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the good news is you don't die, but 173 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: the bad news is it is a little scary. And 174 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: also then you're stuck on the stuff by the side 175 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: of the road. 176 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. Not so. 177 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: Speaking of Elon, he's trying to save what Nick's treasury. Bit, 178 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 3: what do you think about this? 179 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: So right now in Marlago, there's a lot of jockeying 180 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: between the first body that's Elon Musk or as Trump 181 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: calls him, Leon and the quote unquote more normal appointment. 182 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: So Trump had to give RFK Health and Human Services 183 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: because the Kennedys are actually trying to assassinate us. I 184 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: stall that from the internet. Somebody made that joke, a 185 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: brilliant joke. But so the question is will it be 186 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: this Scott Asson, who is sort of a more normal pick, 187 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: or will it be Howard Nick, who recently went on 188 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: television and said that Trump would not pick RFK Junior, 189 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: and then maybe vaccines weren't so great again. You know, 190 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: we are so down the rabbit hole here, it's hard to. 191 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: Imagine that any of this ends. Wow. 192 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: Speaking of which, doctor joh former Biden administrator in the 193 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen and the dean of Brown University School of 194 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: Public Health. He talked about the RFK appointment and he 195 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: said RFK Junior has signaled that he doesn't intend to 196 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: follow the approach. Instead of relying on rigorous analysis and evidence, 197 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: he seems poised to prioritize his own views in decision making. 198 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: Now all of us know that MAGA is all about 199 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: doing your own research on Facebook. Nothing wrong with that, 200 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: except if you cause another pandemic. Rick Wilson is the 201 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: founder of the Lincoln Product and the host of the 202 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: Enemy Welcome back to Fast Politics. 203 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 4: Rick Wilson, Hey, Mollie John Fast how are you on 204 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 4: this fine day? 205 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, it's a great day, you know, I'm enjoying 206 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: the last gasps of the Roman Empire. 207 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 4: How about you, Well, I mean it was the Roman Republic, 208 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 4: but yeah, close enough. Yes, I mean you're you really 209 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 4: are looking at the dying civilization right now. 210 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 2: But we don't want people to be depressed here, because 211 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: that is what because we want I know, I get. 212 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: We don't want people to despair because I think that 213 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is about to have a tent so big 214 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: that includes both anti Semites and Zionists, both anti vaxxers 215 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: and people who believe in modern medicine, Russian trolls and 216 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: America firsters every which way discuss h. 217 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's largely where we're about to go. 218 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 4: We are going to have a very very very fed 219 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 4: up period of time in this country where the promises 220 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 4: Trump is made to his base to be awful to 221 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 4: the world will be fulfilled. But it will also be 222 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 4: so chaotic and so fucked up, and they will have 223 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 4: such There are already internal maga civil wars breaking out, 224 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 4: which I love, and boy Elon seems to be at 225 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 4: the center of most of them. 226 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: Which civil wars are you talking about? 227 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 4: The civil war in this case is the moment that 228 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 4: they're having with Treasury Secretary, where Howard Lutnik was supposed 229 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 4: to be the guy, and then Elon wade in and 230 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 4: wanted somebody else to be the guy. The thing about 231 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 4: this moment we're in to remember is while they are 232 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 4: evil and while they are powerful, they are also fucking stupid. 233 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 4: They really are. These are not smart guys. These are 234 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 4: not a class thinkers. And that's one of our only 235 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 4: big advantages in this fight right now is that they 236 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 4: really are a bunch of fucking morons. 237 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: Well, what I would say is that it seems like 238 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: there is a feeling in which Trump and his people 239 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: are not like they have made promises. I just don't 240 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: know how you keep promises to people who want to 241 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: end government programs but still want to have So. 242 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: Let's talk about government efficiency for a minute. 243 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: So one of the things that Elon and Vivic and 244 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, one of the reasons that Silicon Valley joined MAGA, 245 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: besides tax cuts, is that they're very excited to cut 246 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: the federal government. But I think that one of the 247 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: places that Vivik wants to start is not a place 248 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: that Republicans love to cut discuss. 249 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 4: He wants to cut the DoD and he wants to 250 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 4: also cut the VA. Let me tell you something, Republican 251 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 4: congressmen are a spineless, gutless, nutless, ballless set of human beings. 252 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 4: But the minute you ask them to cut VA benefits 253 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 4: for people in their districts, I assure you that's one 254 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: of the red lines that they will actually say, vivek Donald, elon, 255 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 4: go fuck yourself, because it is political poison. Same thing 256 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 4: with cutting social security political poison. One of the realities 257 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 4: of government contract is that when you decide you're going 258 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 4: to build a new fighter plane, Okay, let's take the 259 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: F thirty five for existance, the current hot fighter number. 260 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 4: That plane may be assembled at a factory in Dallas 261 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 4: Fort Worth, but every part of it is built somewhere 262 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 4: in this country and in all fifty states and all 263 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 4: the territories. Everybody gets a bite, everybody gets a piece 264 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 4: of the pie, everybody gets a cut. So let's say 265 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 4: they go, okay, we're going to cut this program. Well, 266 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 4: that program is being built in some senator's home state 267 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 4: and some congressman's home district. And the idea that that's 268 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 4: just going to go that these guys are going to go, 269 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 4: oh yeah, well, of course, in obedience to Trump, we're 270 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 4: going to fuck ourselves politically for all time. That's not 271 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 4: going to work out for you, goodloe boys. 272 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: I mean, that's what we're sort of looking down the 273 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: barrel of very much so. 274 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 4: And the idea that you're going to end up with 275 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 4: less government spending is always commendable. Everybody wants to do that. Okay, 276 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 4: everybody wants less government spending. Blah blah blah. Reality is, 277 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 4: though these tax dollars are allocated to the various states, 278 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 4: the spending in those states benefits, benefits individual people, and 279 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 4: it also benefits the members of Congress and the senators 280 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 4: who pass that legislation and get those things spent in 281 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 4: their states. And not all of it is you know, fraud, 282 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 4: waste and abuse. An awful lot of it is providing 283 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 4: services that Americans have paid taxes for, e g. Just 284 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 4: just just a little as a little for instance, veterans benefits. 285 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 4: Wh's another place at Vivek Ramaswami has already promised he's 286 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 4: going to cut Oh okay, you know that is about 287 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 4: like saying I want to pass the National Herpes Distribution Plan. 288 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 4: It is not a popular idea. It will never be 289 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 4: a popular idea. No one's ever going to say that 290 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 4: is the greatest idea since prepared, mustered Vivek, you should 291 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 4: go ahead and do that. Let's get let's get on 292 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 4: with cutting VA benefits madness. 293 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: One of the things that it feels like Vivak and 294 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: Musk don't totally understand is that a lot of our 295 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: national debt is actually interest payments. 296 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 4: Yes. Yes, and here's a dirty little secret. Republicans are 297 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 4: really fucking good at spending money. Okay, let's not pretend 298 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 4: that all this money was just spent by Democrats doing 299 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 4: national mime and puppetry programs. These things were spent on 300 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 4: a lot of programs that went to Republican districts, and 301 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 4: a lot of these guys have made their political careers 302 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 4: off of having a very lavish federal spending program in 303 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 4: their states or their districts. This is not going to stop. 304 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 4: Nobody's going to stop doing. 305 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: This, including in red states. 306 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: Right, even more so in red states. Red states have 307 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 4: a net and you know benefit they pay less in 308 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 4: taxes than the blue states do. This is not rocket science, 309 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 4: it's just a fact. 310 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: So explain to us what's gonna sort of what's going 311 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: to happen. 312 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 4: Now, they're going to say. Elon's going to say, we 313 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 4: have to cut the XYZ program in the Department of Energy, Okay, 314 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 4: whatever it is, but he's going to find out that 315 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 4: that program is in statute, it is in federal law 316 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 4: where Congress has said this program is established under House 317 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 4: resolution or House Bill blah blah blah, signed by the Senate, 318 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 4: signed by the President. And you don't just get to 319 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 4: randomly cut those things. That's not how any of this works. 320 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: Right, So how does it work? 321 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 4: Explain they're going to have If you want to get 322 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 4: rid of some of these programs, you have to have 323 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 4: votes on the floor of the House to get rid 324 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 4: of them. You have to have votes in the Senate 325 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 4: to get rid of them. 326 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: And the House has right now, I think it's like 327 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: a three seat majority, right, correct, Republicans. 328 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: It's not all the California votes are encountered yet, but 329 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: it looks like it's going to be a very small majority. 330 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, this will not be a sweeping Republican hoarde. The 331 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 4: Senate and the House both are going to end up 332 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 4: feeling very tight, very constrained. 333 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: The Senate is a little better for Republicans, right, Yeah. 334 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 4: But again, it's not the It will not be easy going. Now. 335 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 4: This is going to be like a walkover where they 336 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 4: have just so much ladder to play fuck around that 337 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 4: they're going to be able to come out and pass 338 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 4: anything they want or cut anything they want. I've been 339 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 4: around the block on these things. I was around when 340 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 4: we did something back in the nineties called the Base 341 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 4: Closure and Realignment Commission, which was what and whether they 342 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 4: were at the time the most liberal anti war, anti 343 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 4: military blah blah cliche whatever, or the hardest core Republican, 344 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 4: they all wanted us to do base closures after the 345 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 4: end of the Cold War. And guess what, none of 346 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 4: them wanted the base closures to be in their districts Ah, weird, 347 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 4: weird how that works. 348 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: But also Vivig and Elon don't it's not part of 349 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: the government. They're not being appointed to the cabinet, right. 350 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 4: No, this thing is a quasi governmental office. It has 351 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 4: no statutory authority whatsoever. You know. I know it has 352 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 4: no statutory authority because it never existed until today, right, 353 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 4: That's how I know. 354 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: So they're going to make recommendations and then the government 355 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: is going to just not be able to implement them. 356 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 4: They're gonna make recommendations and it doesn't matter what they 357 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: say because it's not in the budget. We don't pass 358 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 4: budgets anymore in this country. We stopped doing budgets years 359 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 4: ago for a lot of bad reasons. We should do budgets, Honestly, 360 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 4: we should pass budgets. That'd be a good, responsible, grown 361 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 4: up American thing to do, but we don't. And because 362 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 4: of that, we're going to end up with these people thinking, oh, well, 363 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 4: we can do whatever we choose, we can cut these 364 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 4: things and they'll just go away because Trump doesn't want 365 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 4: them there and Elon doesn't like them. Nope, not how 366 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 4: it works. And again you're going to find out some 367 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 4: maga member of Congress is going to say he's going 368 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 4: to get on the phone to Elon. I go, well, listen, buddy, 369 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 4: I'll tell you one thing. I'm on the NASA Procurement Committee, 370 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 4: and I'm going to tell you some your fucking rockets 371 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 4: aren't going anywhere unless you stop this bullshit. 372 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: Right. That is the sort of interesting thing about the 373 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: situation is like Elon has more money than anyone else 374 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: in the entire world, so he can fund primary challenges. 375 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: But these people have control over the space stuff he 376 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: wants to do. 377 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: Right. 378 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, these people have also been around the entire history 379 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 4: of Washington. They know what they're doing. This is not 380 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 4: an easy skate for Elon. This is not some magical 381 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 4: wave of magic wand and the world does what Elon wants. 382 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 4: It just doesn't work that way. 383 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: So what do you think happens now? I mean, like, 384 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: just sort of talk us through what's going to happen. 385 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 4: In a few days. They're going to start more in 386 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 4: earnest saying, oh, how do we do this? What do 387 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 4: we do? They won't get a good answer. They'll get 388 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 4: lawyers who tell them, oh, well the president will pass 389 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 4: this because or the president will push people and they'll 390 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 4: do it because the president, when you are taking money 391 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,479 Speaker 4: from people in their districts, you are going to get fucked. 392 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 4: This is just I mean, this is one oh one Washington, 393 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 4: d C. And people who don't understand this, they don't 394 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 4: understand it for a reason because they're they're magas. They 395 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 4: come from a world where they've never had a dear 396 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 4: with an actual issue with government. They've just ignored it 397 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: or pretend that it didn't exist, and they're going to. 398 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: Get fucked I think it's interesting. 399 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: This is meant to be the Trump term where he 400 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: gets serious and finally dismantles the physit over men. 401 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 4: Is it though? 402 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: But a lot of these appointments don't seem like Marco 403 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: Rubio is pretty is it sort of normal? 404 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: Appointment? RFK Junior is not enormous? 405 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 4: Not so much. Yeah, Look, all these guys other than 406 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 4: Marco and maybe a least stophonic okay, are not serious people. 407 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 4: And even at Lease isn't a terribly serious person. But 408 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 4: these are not serious people. These are not people who 409 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 4: could get a job at a waffle house, as I 410 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 4: like to say. They're not smart, they don't have their 411 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 4: shit together. They are not normal people. They're going to 412 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 4: end up, you know, fucking this up. They can't help it. 413 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 4: These are broken people. They don't know what they're doing. 414 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: A lot of these candidates don't seem like they'll be 415 00:21:58,440 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: able to get through a Senate comproment. 416 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 4: I suspect what we're going to end up with, as 417 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 4: everybody else is sort of, you know, clearly predicting, is 418 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 4: we're going to end up with a bunch of recess appointments. 419 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: Now, can you just talk us through recess appointments, because 420 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: isn't that sort of up to the Senate majority leader. 421 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 4: No, it's also up to the president. He can recess Congress. 422 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: But doesn't he sort of need the leader to be 423 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: bought in. 424 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 4: Do you think that John Thune won't say yes or 425 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 4: three bags full when he says we're going to do this. 426 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't see any world in which Thune 427 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 4: becomes sort of a superhero and says, this is the line, sir, 428 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 4: and you will not cross it. 429 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: So what happens? In said, So he recesses the Senate. 430 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: He appoints all these people without hearings, yep. 431 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 4: And they are in office for two hundred and eighteen 432 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 4: days I think it is, or fifteen whatever. It's some 433 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 4: non trivial but long enough to fuck things up. Not 434 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 4: long enough to get too comfortable, but long enough to 435 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 4: fuck things up. 436 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: We explain this to me. A recess appointment can only 437 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: last for a certain amount of time. 438 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 4: Only last for two hundred and eighteen or two hundred 439 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 4: and nineteen days, it's some weird number. 440 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: And then they have to go into hearings or now. 441 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 4: No, then they're done. You cannot be recess appointed twice. 442 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 4: Doesn't work. That way. 443 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: Wasn't this Matthew hot Tub crime machine? 444 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 4: And this is what he had to do with him? Yeah, 445 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 4: exactly what happened with hot Tub. 446 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: He was acting. 447 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 4: He was acting. A recess appointment is an acting appointment. 448 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so they'll put them in for acting. But 449 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: then do you think anyone will have regular appointments or now? 450 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 4: Oh, there'll be some regular appointments that get passed. I 451 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 4: mean a few here and there, not as many as 452 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 4: they would like. 453 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: So they'll be confirmation hearings. But just for the people 454 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: who could pass. 455 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 4: Like dog Killer, Christie right, the Senate will confirm dog Killer. 456 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 4: They'll just do that pro forma. But if you're Christy Nome, 457 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 4: you get a regular appointment. But you really don't matter 458 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 4: Matt Gates. Look, I'm a skeptic about the strength and 459 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 4: moral character of Republican elected officials, as you might well know. 460 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 4: Even with these guys, it's a real tough to sell 461 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 4: giving Matt Gates an appointment putting a secondator, a sexual 462 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 4: predator inside the Department of Justice. 463 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: So do you think Matt Gates gets appointed as a 464 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: recess or No? 465 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the only way they're going to get him. 466 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 2: In right, And you think that's going to happen. 467 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, look, Matt is loyal to Trump. 468 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 4: None of these senators want to None of these senators 469 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 4: want to take this vote. Okay, they're petrified to this vote. 470 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 4: And so I think you end up in a world 471 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 4: where a lot of them are like, just say, mister President, 472 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 4: we can't pull this off. You got you got to 473 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 4: give us a break on this one. You got to 474 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 4: let this one go. Let us do this in a recess. 475 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: So they want him to do Resa's appointment so they 476 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about it. 477 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely for the tough votes, one hundred percent. Look, none 478 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 4: of these guys want to cast a vote for RFK 479 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 4: when they know that that means in the year or 480 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 4: two that kids are going to start dying of fucking mumps. 481 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 4: I mean, none of them want to make that choice. 482 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 4: None of them want to make that call. 483 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: And you think RFK ends up as a recess appointment too, Yeah? 484 00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 4: Absolutely? 485 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: And then what happens destroy the agencies they're tasked to lead. 486 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's their actual job is to destroy the agencies 487 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 4: they've been they've been hired to run. 488 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: Well, that's pretty chilling. Any good news here. Give us 489 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: a little bit of good news. 490 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 4: They're all stupid. I mean that actually is a piece 491 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 4: of good news. I really want you to internalize that 492 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 4: these people are stupid, and stupid people make easy mistakes 493 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 4: all the time. Stupid people make a lot of mistakes, 494 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 4: and I think we can be hopeful that as we 495 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 4: go forward the kind of mistakes that they will make 496 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 4: which are predictable, both in terms of corruption, in terms 497 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 4: of not understanding the law, in terms of exposing the 498 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 4: White House to political and logistical and criminal problems. There's 499 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 4: a lot of good news here. 500 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: Frankly interesting. Rick Wilson, thank. 501 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 4: You a pleasure. As always, Mollie, talk to you soon. 502 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: Katherine you Bright is a counsel at the Brennan Centers 503 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: Liberty and National Security Program. Welcome to Fast Politics, Catherine. 504 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me explain to us what you do. 505 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 5: I'm a counsel on the Brandon Center's Liberty and National 506 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 5: Security team, and I've been doing a concerted, focused research 507 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 5: project into the Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight. 508 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: Great did you see this coming? And when did you 509 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: get interested in this act? 510 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 5: So? Donald Trump, on the campaign trail had been promising 511 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 5: to use the Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight 512 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 5: for over a year, and then we saw this law 513 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 5: also pop up in the GOP twenty twenty four presidential platform, 514 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 5: And so this is not something new by way of 515 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 5: a promise for what the incoming president would like to do. 516 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,479 Speaker 5: The mass deportation promise has been a focal point of 517 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 5: the campaign for again over a year. I really got 518 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 5: interested in this particular authority because of the way that 519 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 5: I felt it had been covered when Trump first started 520 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 5: promising to use it, and there was I think a 521 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 5: lot of reflective skepticism about whether it would be possible 522 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 5: for him to invoke this law and whether it would 523 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 5: be a slam dunk in the courts to strike down 524 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 5: that kind of use. And this is a wartime authority. 525 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 5: I work on constitutional war powers, and I thought that 526 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 5: the argument was not as clear cut and that the 527 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 5: situation could be a little bit hairrier than some of 528 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 5: the reporting reflected. 529 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: So the Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight was 530 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: enacted during wartime, right, and the last time it was 531 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: actually enacted was during World War Two. 532 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, So the law was enacted as the name suggests 533 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 5: in seventeen ninety eight during something called the quasi War 534 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 5: with France, which was an entirely naval conflict. It never 535 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 5: escalated into a ground war, it never became a declared war, 536 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 5: and the Alien Enemies Act was passed alongside three other laws, 537 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 5: quite notorious. You probably learned about them in grade school, 538 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 5: be Alien and Sedition X, and they're very controversial, sort 539 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 5: of negative precedent in American history. This swaw was not 540 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 5: actually used in the quasi war because it never escalated 541 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 5: into a more intense ground invasion or declared war. It 542 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 5: has only been used three times, the first time in 543 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 5: the War of eighteen twelve, then in World War One, 544 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 5: and then in World War Two. And it is in 545 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 5: authority for summary detentions and deportations in wartime and its history. 546 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 5: I think most notably and notoriously in World War Two 547 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 5: was the internment of thirty one thousand immigrants non citizens 548 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 5: of Japanese, German, and Italian descent. 549 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: Yes, and I actually have known people whose mothers and 550 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: grandmothers were swept up in this. 551 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 2: Tell us how it ended. 552 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, So this is one of the things that gave 553 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 5: me pause about the assumption that the courts would definitely 554 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 5: strike down a peacetime use of this wartime authority. How 555 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 5: did the use of the Alien Enemies Act end in 556 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 5: World War Two? Well, it actually ended in nineteen fifty one, 557 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 5: even though World War Two, as we would all assume 558 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 5: and we were all taught, ended in nineteen forty five. 559 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 5: But the courts for years and years allowed Harry S. 560 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 5: Truman to continue relying on this authority to detain people 561 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 5: and to deport people, because the court said, while the 562 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 5: Congress and the President say that the war is ongoing, 563 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 5: and so even if there's no hostilities, even if we've 564 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 5: actually already finished demobilizing US forces after the war, we 565 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 5: can't second guess the president on that. 566 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: How was it stopped in the end? 567 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, Eventually, in nineteen fifty one, Congress passes a resolution 568 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 5: that says the war is over. The President signs it, 569 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 5: and at that point the courts acknowledged, Okay, the power 570 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 5: of the Alien Enemies Act has terminated because the political branches, 571 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 5: the Congress and the President have now acknowledged that we're 572 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 5: not at war. 573 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: Okay. 574 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, the courts exercised really no independent judgment to determine 575 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 5: whether we were or were not at war. And so 576 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 5: one of my concerns is that this law in our 577 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 5: history has been used outside of what we would generally 578 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 5: understand it be wartime where there were no ongoing hostilities. 579 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 5: And so can we be certain that the courts will 580 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 5: serve as a check on a peacetime use or abuse 581 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 5: of this law. 582 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: First of all, I don't understand if it's a wartime act, 583 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: if you're not at war, how would that work. 584 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, so the law can be invoked in times of 585 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 5: declared war. We know what that means, Congress gets to 586 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 5: declare war, but also in times of quote invasion or 587 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 5: predatory incursion, and those aren't defined terms in the law. 588 00:30:59,320 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 589 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 5: What we've seen in the past several years is some 590 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 5: anti immigrant groups and politicians claiming that migration constitutes a 591 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 5: quot unquote invasion, or that cartel activity narcotics trafficking constitutes 592 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 5: the quote unquote invasion. And so even if you look 593 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 5: at the history, and it's very clear that an invasion 594 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 5: was understood by the Fifth Congress back in seventeen ninety eight, 595 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 5: as well as by presidents and congresses since then, to 596 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 5: refer to acts of war and invasion is an act 597 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 5: of war there's this sort of obfuscation or gainsmanship where 598 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 5: these anti immigrant politicians and groups are trying to replace 599 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 5: that legal meaning of the word invasion with their rhetorical meaning. 600 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 2: Right, talk me through what would happen. 601 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: Right. We know Donald Trump is planning this, we know 602 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: he's planning deportation. We know he wants to use this act. 603 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: Explain to me why. 604 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 2: He needs to use this act. 605 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen a lot of deportation of people 606 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: who are not in this country illegal for years and 607 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: years and years. If you could explain to us why 608 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: this is necessary to begin with. 609 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 5: So, one of the things that I think Trump's team 610 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 5: finds so attractive about the Alien Enemies Act is it's 611 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 5: summary deportation process. And what that means is there's no hearing. 612 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 5: In fact, not only is there no hearing, this law 613 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 5: can be used against anyone who is not a US 614 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 5: citizen who is from a proclaimed enemy nation. And so 615 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 5: that could mean an asylum seeker, it could mean a 616 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 5: VIASL holder, It could even mean a permanent resident. And 617 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 5: so this not only has none of those procedural protections 618 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 5: that you have in conventional immigration law, it also if 619 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 5: you accidentally scoop up someone who has legal status like 620 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 5: it's not going to matter. You can still hold that 621 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 5: person in immigration or not immigration processing rather under this 622 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 5: wartime authority, and then you can still summarily deport them 623 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 5: under this authority. The other thing that this law does 624 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 5: is it provides detention authority, as we saw in internment 625 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 5: in World War Two and internment in World War One. 626 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 5: And so it's unclear what kind of authority Stephen Miller 627 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 5: and Tom Holman would be relying on for the immigration 628 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 5: processing camps that they're talking about holding migrants as they're 629 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 5: trying to figure out repatriation. Right, if these aren't people 630 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 5: who are subject to an immigration removal order from an 631 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 5: immigration judge, how are we holding them? And they're not 632 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 5: people who are criminally convicted or even criminally charged. Necessarily, 633 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 5: if the courts refuse to strike down an abuse of 634 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 5: invocation of this law, this law then could become the 635 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 5: legal basis for detaining people at those immigration processing camps. 636 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: Wow explained to us how it would be different than 637 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: what we have right now. 638 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 5: I think the rapidity with which the detentions and deportations 639 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 5: could be affected would be the substantially different would be 640 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 5: much faster, and the scale on which the detentions and 641 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 5: deportations could happen would also be conceivably much larger. 642 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 3: Now. 643 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 5: One thing that in the deportation context is a persistent 644 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 5: challenge across administrations is the under resourcing of the immigration system. 645 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 5: And so there's a tremendous backlog. We don't have enough 646 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 5: immigration judges. The immigration judges are overburdened. There are many 647 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 5: hearings that need to take place, particularly when people make 648 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 5: asylum claims. One of the things again with the extreme 649 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 5: summary processes of the Alien Enemies Act, but the Trump 650 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 5: administration is hoping this law will allow them to do 651 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 5: is bypass asylum hearings altogether. What we saw in World 652 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 5: War Two was that this law was used even against 653 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 5: German Jews simply because they were of German ancestry. 654 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: Wow, as a GEO, that's pretty rough, especially considering what 655 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: was happening during World War Two to German Jews. So 656 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: why was that? Is the law just open to that 657 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: or was that a conscious choice. 658 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 5: The law applies to anyone once there's a presidential proclamation 659 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 5: that there's an enemy nation with which we're at war. 660 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 5: Applies to anyone who is a native, a citizen, denizen, 661 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 5: or subject of that foreign enemy. If you happened to 662 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 5: be Jewish and born in Germany, the fact that maybe 663 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 5: you had been denationalized or stripped of your citizenship by 664 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 5: Germany and that you had then fled to the United 665 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 5: States as a refugee didn't change the fact that you 666 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 5: were born in Germany. You were still a native, right 667 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 5: and so you still fell under this law, and you 668 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 5: still fell under the proclamation and the potential to be 669 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 5: interned that this law gave to the Roosevelt administration and 670 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 5: later to the Truman administration. And it was actually a 671 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 5: conscious choice as well by the Department of Justice, at 672 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 5: least for part of the war, not to exclude Jewish 673 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 5: refugees out of fear for the potential that German Jews 674 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 5: would use their refugee status as a quote protective cloak 675 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 5: for Malian activities, as if someone who had just suffered 676 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 5: that kind of persecution in the third right would go 677 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 5: around and turn around and conduct espionage or sabotage to 678 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 5: undermine the US war effort. It's a draconian, unforgiving law 679 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 5: that contains no exceptions for someone who's completely loyal to 680 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 5: the United States to someone who in no way, shape 681 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 5: or form could constitute a threat to the United States. 682 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 683 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: Is there any way to push back against this? 684 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? 685 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 5: So, as I've said, it would be an abuse of 686 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 5: the law to invoke it in peace time. And the 687 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 5: que unquote migrant invasion that Trump and Miller are hoping 688 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 5: to proclaim is in fact not anywhere close to the 689 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 5: kind of invasion or act of war that the Alien 690 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 5: Enemy Is Act is concerned with. And so one of 691 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 5: the things one of the arguments that we would be making, 692 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 5: and you know, helping detainees immigrants detained under this law 693 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 5: to do, is bring havieous petitions to the courts saying 694 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 5: this law was inappropriately invoked. There actually is no legal 695 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 5: authority to hold me in detention and queue me up 696 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 5: for deportation. That's one of the arguments, and I think 697 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 5: it's a pretty strong argument that this is a pretextual 698 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 5: and abusive invocation of the law. We also would argue 699 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 5: that the Alien Enemies Act violates contemporary understandings of equal 700 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 5: protection or anti discrimination under the Constitution and the due 701 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 5: process rates that immigrants have under the Constitution. 702 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, but where would this go? 703 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: So you would argue that it would get kicked up 704 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: to what circuit it would eventually go to the Supreme Court. 705 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 5: Right, that's right unless the circuit courts, district courts, and 706 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 5: circuit courts soundingly strike down the abuse. I think if 707 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 5: we have a case where the circuit courts are unanimous 708 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 5: that this is a violation, this cannot be happening. Maybe 709 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 5: the Trump administration doesn't appeal it up to the Supreme Court, 710 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 5: but I think if this law is invoked, the chances 711 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 5: are that this does end up with the justices. 712 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: Do you have any reason to be hopeful here? 713 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean whenever you're litigating up to the Supreme Court. 714 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 5: But the question is can you count to five? 715 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 2: Right? 716 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 5: And we have the three liberals who I'm sure would 717 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 5: be aghast at an abusive invocation of this law. I 718 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,439 Speaker 5: think Frankly Neil Gorsich would also be really upset by 719 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 5: this kind of pretextual, ahistorical use of an overbroad national 720 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 5: security authority. And there are some cases where Gorsich has 721 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 5: shown himself to be a little heterodox on the issue 722 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 5: of national security pretexts advanced by the President. And I 723 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 5: should hope that either Kavanaugh or Roberts would also strike 724 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 5: down this kind of abuse because of the tremendous damage 725 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 5: that using this wartime authority for peacetime massed attention and 726 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 5: deportation would due to the American ethos and also of 727 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 5: course to the courts themselves. 728 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: Right, you don't have any hope for justice, Barrett. 729 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 5: I'm not sure about justice, Barrett. There is a case 730 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 5: that she wrote the majority opinion for in the past term. 731 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 5: It's called Munez, and it is an immigration case, and 732 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 5: she actually, in that opinion favorably cited as immigration precedent 733 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 5: the Alien Friends Act, which was a counterpart authority of 734 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 5: the Alien and Sedition Acts. So the peacetime authority was 735 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 5: Alien Friends, the wartime authority was Alien Enemies. She cites 736 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 5: that favorably as an immigration precedent, and then she also 737 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 5: cites Chinese exclusion favorably as an immigration precedent, And those 738 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 5: are both counter precedents in my view, and those are 739 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 5: both arguments in my view, for why the Alien Enemies 740 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 5: Act should be viewed and understood as unconstitutional and incompatible 741 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 5: with our present day values, because it's just so rare 742 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,919 Speaker 5: for these kinds of really overbroad immigration statutes that discriminate 743 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 5: against a person based on their identity, not based on 744 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 5: their conduct, to be enacted by the Congress. And also, 745 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 5: when we have as a nation enacted those laws, we 746 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 5: have apologized for it and we've understood that that was 747 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 5: a mistake. And so to see that in Barrett's opinion 748 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 5: in that case left me a little bit concerned. 749 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 2: Makes you think, yeah, that sounds right. 750 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I'm used to bear it being one 751 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: of the less insane conservatives on the Court. Though she 752 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: tends to vote with them, she tends to not be 753 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: happy about it. Though, for whatever that's worth, that's super 754 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 1: interesting and relevant. The money to finance these camps, do those? 755 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't that come from Congress? 756 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, So whenever you're talking about government action, you need 757 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 5: to be thinking about the authorizations but also the appropriations, right, 758 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 5: and so the Alien Enemy Us Act is an authorization, right, Like, 759 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 5: what can we do assuming that Congress is giving us 760 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 5: money to do it? The appropriations have to come from 761 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 5: somewhere else. And one thing, and I'll admit I'm not 762 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 5: an expert on this, that people have talked about is 763 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 5: the potential of reprogramming funds that have been allocated to 764 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 5: other projects, and so can the Trump administration take those 765 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 5: funds that are allocated to other projects and move them 766 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 5: into mass deportation as an endeavor. 767 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: Right, that's good. I'm very depressed now. Thank you for 768 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: joining us. 769 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 5: Thank you again for having me. 770 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: No moment, fuck Rick Wilson, what is your moment of fuckery? 771 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 4: My moment of fuckery is the promise by the Trump 772 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 4: administration's louder mouths to prosecute the American generals who were 773 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 4: executing a lawful presidential orders in the withdrawal from Afghanistan, 774 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 4: that they are going to hold them in a court 775 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 4: martial and try to prosecute them. I get that they 776 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,879 Speaker 4: have a lurid fantasy life and they believe that they 777 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 4: want to punish their enemies. Trump is doing this not 778 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 4: because of Afghanistan or anything else. He's doing it for 779 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 4: the very very simple and ugly reason that they believe 780 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 4: that they need to scare the shit out of as 781 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 4: many members of the military as they can in advance. 782 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 4: They want to scare the shit out of those people 783 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 4: so that they will obey Trump, so that they will 784 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 4: not fight back against Trump, so that they will not 785 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 4: in any way stand up and uphold their oath of 786 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 4: office when the time comes. 787 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really scary. 788 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: My moment of fuckery is that all of this feels 789 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: very familiar and that we're back here again, and that 790 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: people are more exhausted and the Supreme Court has his 791 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: back and it's just a very dark moment in American life. 792 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: But I also want to add that there's a lot 793 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: of hope here. 794 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 2: Right. 795 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: This is he won by a very small margin. There 796 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:28,240 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who don't agree with his cheos, right, 797 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: and that in fact there are Democrats won a bunch 798 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: of Senate seats, kept a bunch of Senate seats, and 799 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: the down ballot, they worked on state legislatures and did 800 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: the unglamorous hard work that they had been needing to 801 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: do in twenty sixteen. 802 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 2: And in some ways that will provide a bullwork. 803 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of good Democratic governors and 804 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: they understand that they have to fight trump Ism tooth 805 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,240 Speaker 1: and nail. And that is not either fuckory, but in fact, 806 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: like it's a moment of hope. 807 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 4: Who are you and what have you done with Fast? 808 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 809 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 810 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of. 811 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 2: All this chaos. 812 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a 813 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. 814 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.