1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: Not just murdered, but murdered one hundred times over. Think 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: about that, not just murdered, but murdered one hundred times over. 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Series XIM 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: one eleven. Listen to this. Saturday afternoon, deputies received a 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: call for a welfare check on Bailey Drive in Springville, 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: the call coming from Tammy Bailey's sister, who was also 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: her next door neighbor. Sheriff Moon says Bailey was stabbed 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: more than one hundred times, but that wasn't even the 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: most disturbing part. She was beheaded and her one of 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: her lower limbs was cut almost completely off, and we 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: believed the very first blow, which was straight to the 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: chest through her heart, we believed that was lethal blow. 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: Some of the victims family members live right next door. 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: We're talking about twenty feet or so away from where 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: Tammy was murdered. Did you hear that stabbed over one 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: hundred times, murdered one hundred times over, then dismembered. But 18 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: why you were hearing our friends at ABC NWVTM, that 19 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: is an entirely different way of thinking, a different mindset 20 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: not just to kill, but to overkill, and the mind 21 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: of a stabber is different from the minds of all 22 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: other killers. This scene so disturbed. Take a listen to 23 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: what the sheriff says to investigators and the crime scene. 24 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: Take who was one of my patrol lieutenants that responded 25 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: to this scene. They probably have close to one hundred 26 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: years combined experience in law enforcement, and they said, this 27 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: is the worst thing that they've ever seen. Sheriff Moon says, Now, 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: mental health for his deputies is top of mind, but 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: resources for that help are lacking state wide. But it 30 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: is something I think that the state really needs to 31 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: look into, not just for dealing with mental health on 32 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: the outside, but you know, helping us in all law enforcement, 33 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, across the state to try to find some 34 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: some avenues and some resources for our guys. Just imagine 35 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: this a murder scene so upsetting, so disturbing, the sheriff 36 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 1: immediately goes into protection mode for his deputies that were 37 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: so upset by the murder scene, stabbed over one hundred 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: times and then partially dismembered then left there. But this 39 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: type of murder phenomena is not new. Take a listen 40 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: to this theme, exactly what happened? I think that's love? 41 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: What what do you mean by that? What happened? I 42 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: had a dream and then I turned on the lights 43 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: and she stood on the floor. How how I'm blood? 44 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm kind of blood all over me and there's a 45 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: bloody knife on the bed and I think I did it? Okay, 46 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: she is he awaken? All right? Now? What makes you 47 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: think she's dead? Does she? Wait? She thought breathed? Okay, 48 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: Oh my god. Okay, do you think he is bond 49 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: beyond any help? I hope though too scared to get 50 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: too close to her. Okay, just down the phone with me, sir. 51 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: I'm here with you. I'm here with you. I scared 52 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: you are hearing the nine one one call associated with 53 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: a so called cough syrup killer Matthew Phelps. Listen to this. 54 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: The autopsy report gives us a lot more insight into 55 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: what Lauren Phelps endured that night, And as you mentioned, 56 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: I did sit down with a defense attorney to really 57 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: delve into the claim that her husband did this all 58 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: under the influence of cough medicine. A medical examiner says 59 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: one hundred twenty three cuts and stab wounds were found 60 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: on Lauren Phelps's body, more than forty on her face 61 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: and neck, more than twenty on her torso, and dozens 62 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: more on her arms. Her husband, Matthew Phelps, is charged 63 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: and says too much courticin Kaugh medicine is to blame. Okay. 64 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: Then he said he had a bad dream about it. 65 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: That reminds me of O. J. Simpson having that bad 66 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: dream about murdering Nicole Brown. It's funny how killers seemed 67 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: to have premonitions. Oh, just like Scott Peterson did. He 68 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: had the premonition that he would be a widow and 69 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,799 Speaker 1: this would be his first Christmas without his life Lacy. 70 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: And guess what it was after he killed her. So 71 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: you've got them stacking up. People that choose stabbing as 72 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: an mo modus operandi method of operation to commit murder. 73 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: Their mindset unlike any other stabbers mindset with me and 74 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: I'll star panel to make sense of what we know. 75 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 1: Right now, we're talking about the case of Tammy Bailly 76 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: who was found stabbed one hundred times and partially dismembered. 77 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to go out to a special guest, Kira Purvis, 78 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: ABC thirty three in Birmingham. Thank you for being with us. 79 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: You can find her on Twitter at Kira Purvis Underscore TV. Kyra, 80 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: tell me what exactly was found inside the home when 81 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: Tammy Bailey was found dead. They found her in the 82 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: home laying on the ground, head near her feet and 83 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: one of her lower limbs separated from her body. Oh my, 84 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: gonna stop right there. Kyra Purvis joining me ABC thirty 85 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: three and forty in Birmingham. I was just thinking when 86 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,559 Speaker 1: you said they found her with her head near her feet, 87 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: I was thinking at first that she was bent over double. 88 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: We covered a story and I investigated as well the 89 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: other day of a child, a little boy being folded 90 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: over and put in a suitcase, and then another similar 91 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: case where Heather Mack murdered her mother and folded her 92 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: up in a suitcase. And I was thinking about this woman, 93 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: Tammy Bailey. When you set her head near her feet, 94 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: it's not because she was folded over, Tyra, It's because 95 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: she was dismembered. Some of the sheriffs told me that 96 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: it was the worst thing that they've ever seen. They've 97 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: never seen anything like it, Like they were talking about 98 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: with mental health. They don't know how their officers are 99 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: going to deal with being something like this with me. 100 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: Is Kyra Purvis Special Guests joining us ABC thirty three 101 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: forty You know, jo Scott Morgan, I want to follow 102 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: up on what Kyridge just says. You got a lot 103 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: more to tell us, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author 104 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and start to 105 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: hit series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, 106 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: are you ever so saturated? You're a death investigator, that's 107 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: your profession. Do you ever get so saturated you feel 108 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: you just can't take it anymore? Yeah, to a certain degree. 109 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: But for patrol officers a little bit different, Nancy. You know, 110 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: they might be coming off of, say, for instance, a 111 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: missing child case. They might be coming off of a 112 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: burglar alarm, and the next thing you know, they get 113 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: this call that's kind of unknown and they show up 114 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: and it's a real shock to their system. Look, I 115 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: signed up for this to be a medical legal death investigator. 116 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: I know that every scene I'd gone is going to 117 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: be death after death after death. For them, it's a 118 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: little bit different, and this is why they get hammered 119 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,679 Speaker 1: so hard when they respond to these kind of cases. 120 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: In an acute sense. For us, it's kind of a 121 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: chronic way of living. But for them it's really hard 122 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: to come back from this. Doctor Scott A. Johnson joining me, 123 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: forensic psychologist joining us out of Minnesota, thirty two years 124 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: in the business, Author and the star in a sense 125 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: at Forensic Consultation dot Org. Doctor Johnson the other day, well, 126 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: it's almost every day when we're getting in the car 127 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: to take the twins to school, I say, you remember 128 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: my friend, the old Georgia State Patrol officer told me 129 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: I've never pulled a live body out of a buckle 130 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: seat belt. That's all it takes. I can hear the 131 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: buckles starts snapping. One day, I said it, and I 132 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: think it was Lucy in the backseat. She said, Mom, 133 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: do you think he ever got tired of seeing dead bodies? 134 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: And it just hit me he probably did. How this 135 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: scene with Tammy Bailey stabbed over one hundred times and 136 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: dismembered was so upsetting the officers had to go in 137 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: for therapy after they saw what happened. How do you 138 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: deal with something like that? Of course, you are dealing 139 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: with what we still call post traumatic stress, you know, 140 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: the unexpected extreme event, A lot of it is just 141 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: processing the scene. You know, what did we come upon 142 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: and how did we react? And mostly what are we 143 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: going to do with it? You know, we talk about it. 144 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: We need to talk about it. We may never see 145 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: such a horrific scene again. However, we're not really prepared upfront, tuciate. 146 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: You know, no training can prepare you to see such carnage. 147 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: Not to Tyra Purvis joining us ABC thirty three forty Tira, 148 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: what parts of her body were dismembered on top of 149 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: being stabbed one hundred times? Well, Nancy, we have her 150 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: head that was, like we said before, right beside her feet, 151 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: and then we also have her lower limb that would 152 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: semi detached, with a completely detached semi detached. Sounds like 153 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: he just got tired of doing it, because it's got 154 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: to be a guy. He very rarely hit. I mean, 155 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: look at the stats. I'm not just hypothesizing. You don't 156 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: really hear of that many women that are dismembering people 157 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: therefore hiding the body or trying to dissolve it with 158 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: some type of a chemical not for dismembering. So he 159 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: do I have this right, Kyra? He decapitates her and 160 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: then begins to chop up her entire body by taking 161 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: off one leg and it just kind of quits. Yep, 162 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: that's basically what happens. Okay again, it's not the first time. 163 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: I just told you about the cough syrup killer. But 164 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: there's more. Do you remember the name Marvin Weller out 165 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: of Palm Springs? Listen to our friends at WPBF. Two 166 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: months after Melvin Weller filed for divorce, Palm Springs police 167 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: arrived at his home February eleventh to find Weller lying 168 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: in the pool of blood that covered more than half 169 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: of the kitchen floor, with multiple stab wounds and lacerations 170 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: on his body. An autopsy revealing Weller had been stabbed 171 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty times all over his body, and 172 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: he also had a skull fracture caused by a blow 173 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: from a meat cleaver to the right rear of his head. 174 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: Police say they found knives and a meat cleaver in 175 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: the kitchen sink, a bloody nightgown and a trash bag 176 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: near the body, and in the bedroom they discovered Weller's wife, 177 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: Joan Burke, with cuts on her hands and not saying 178 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: a word. Gee, I wonder who did that? Prime Stories 179 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Two months after Melvyn Weller filed for divorce. 180 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: Palm Springs police arrived at his home February eleventh to 181 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: find Weller lying in a pool of blood that covered 182 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: more than half of the kitchen floor, with multiple stab 183 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: wounds and lacerations on his body. An autopsy revealing Weller 184 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: had been stabbed one hundred and forty times all over 185 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: his body, and he also had a skull fracture caused 186 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: by a blow from a meat cleaver to the right 187 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: rear of his head. Police say they found knives and 188 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: a meat cleaver in the kitchen sink, a bloody nightgown 189 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,599 Speaker 1: and a trash bag near the body, and in the 190 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: bedroom they discovered Weller's wife, Joan Burke, with cuts on 191 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: her hands and not saying a word. Gee, I wonder 192 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: who did that? A bloody nightgown that the victims not wearing, 193 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: and the wife sitting there stone cold well taking listen 194 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: out of our freens. At Khou eleven, she buried her 195 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: husband in their Northwest Terrace County backyard in a hole 196 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: he had dug for a home improvement project. Days later, 197 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: the family dog unearthed him. He stabbed him Susan Wright, 198 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: twenty seven, mother of two and murder defendant, is some 199 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: well offer navigence, I think it. Prosecutors said the unhappy 200 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,359 Speaker 1: wife had lured her husband, Jeffrey Wright, to his deathbed 201 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: with the promise of romance. Jeffrey Wright was ultimately stabbed 202 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: one hundred ninety three times and tortured with hot candlewax. Okay, 203 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: what about that? Are you starting to see a pattern here? 204 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: Joe scut Morgan, both of these victims were stabbed over 205 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: one hundred times and then it was capped off one 206 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: with the blow to the head and now with a 207 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: meat cleaver. I guess one hundred and forty stab wounds 208 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: wasn't enough. You have to do that final touch. Yeah, 209 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: what you see, You know you'd mentioned this earlier, Nancy. 210 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: What you see is just a real basic fact of physiology. 211 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: There's fatigue that sets in. You can only do this 212 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: so many times over and over and over again, and 213 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: the people will get tired. And that's why you see 214 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: in a lot of these cases you'll see but refer 215 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: to as partial dismemberments, because after an individual, say, for instance, 216 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: to have someone this many times, then their face with 217 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: the prospect of having to dispose of a remain and 218 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: that is daunting in and of itself, particularly if you're 219 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: not equipped with the right tools. And so they'll get 220 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: halfway through the process and they'll just kind of throw 221 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: their hands up in frustration, that would seem at least, 222 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: and then the police walk in and they see an 223 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: absolute horror show. You know, it amazes me that you 224 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: manage to kill someone stab them one hundred plus times. 225 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: Then you go, Okay, I'm trying to dismembering. I'm just 226 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: gonna stop. But that we're seeing that they go through 227 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: all of this and with a special mindset of a 228 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: stabber that only a stabber has, and then they quit halfway, 229 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: or at least in the cases we're telling you about now. 230 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: James Shelnu joining me twenty seven years Metro major case, 231 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: former SWAT, now lawyer at the Shellnut Law Firm dot com. James, 232 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: I want you to hear this because very often people go, 233 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: why take a listen to Darcy Thomas Fox thirteen. Well, 234 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: it started over the taste of coffee. But now one 235 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: man is dead and his wife has been charged with 236 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: his murder. Memphis police says Sheila Downey stabbed her husband 237 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: to death yesterday at a home on Renwood Street. Now, 238 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: before the victim died, police say he told them that 239 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: the two got in an argument over the taste of 240 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: his coffee. He says, Downey got angry, she grabbed a 241 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: knife and then stabbed him multiple times. Police say that 242 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: Downey originally drove away from the scene, but it was 243 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: arrested when she returned. Okay, James Shelnut not as if 244 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: the state ever has to prove motive, which they do not, 245 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: but practically speaking, jurars like to hear a motive that 246 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: was over him commenting that the coffee taste bad and 247 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: he got stabbed multiple times to his death. Well, that 248 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: was the straw that both at Campbell's back. But you know, Nason, 249 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: when you go back and you look at these cases, Oh, 250 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: you're saying that him complaining about the coffee was the straw, 251 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: because I'm surprised my husband has the stabbed me five 252 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: hundred times over after all the you know, wedding, I 253 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: do day in and day out about this, that and 254 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: the other thing. But let's just stop just a second. 255 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: So you're saying that him commenting over the bad taste 256 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: of the coffee that was just it. So he got 257 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: stabbed head. That is what you said. That is what 258 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: you said. If you go back and you look at that, 259 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: and you look at most of these stabbings where a 260 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: person is stabbed repeatedly, especially by a domestic partner, there 261 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: has been a long standing relationship that has brewed into hatred, 262 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: and when that person starts the stabbing process, it's not 263 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: just over that one thing that they began arguing. It's 264 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: over that entire history, and they're out to destroy that person, 265 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: to obliterate them, because this hatred and this anger has 266 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: built up and it manifests into a gruesome crimsy. See 267 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: you haven't been could jump in, go ahead, doctor Johnson. Okay, 268 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: well and right on. I was going to say, you 269 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: know that that resentment that's been brewing, the anchor, the repulsiveness, 270 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: the frustration, and then just simply that prerogative to finally 271 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: just vent. But unfortunately now you're you're releasing months and months, 272 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: if not years, of pimped up frustration. So yeah, something 273 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: so stupidly simple as a taste of coffee was the 274 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: last straw for this person's delusional mind. Can you say delusion? 275 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: You're suggesting they're insane because they're not. I'm saying, delusion 276 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be insane. We all have false beliefs 277 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: we hold even though they're not always right on. But 278 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: in their head they justify that if I can't have you, 279 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: if you can't be satisfied, if you can't please me, 280 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: that's in their head they're justified in doing what they're 281 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: doing hundred percent saying hundred percent thought through. But then 282 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: you've got this rage, just lave being out like a volcano. 283 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: And that's what we see with these multiple stabbings. You know, 284 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: shell Nutt seemingly is always right in his analysis, and 285 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: what he said was not what I expected at all. 286 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: Remember he was a street cop for many, many years. 287 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: I was expecting something else after answering multiple homicide calls. 288 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: Now you two gentlemen, Scott doctor Scott Johnson and James 289 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: shell nut are saying that these mass stabbings are the 290 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: result of years and years I pent up frustration. Well, 291 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: let me reintroduce you to the stabbing queen. Take a 292 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: listen to this. What's going on. Our friend of ours 293 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: is dead in his bedroom. We hadn't heard from for 294 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: a while. We think his roommates was going in there, 295 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: and so they bought to blood. I didn't go in that. 296 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: I can give you the phone to someone who went 297 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: in there. Yes, please, HI, what's going on? He's dead. 298 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay, how did 299 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: this happen? Do you have any idea? We have no idea. 300 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days. She 301 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: said that there's blood, So is it coming from his head? 302 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: Did he it's all over the place. Had he been 303 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: threatened by anyone recently? He hasn't. His an ex girlfriend's 304 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: been bothering him and following him in, flashing tires and 305 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: things like that. And you know the ex girlfriends in 306 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: his Her name is Jodi Arius. Jody Arius. She stabbed 307 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: Travis Alexander at least thirty times. Many of the stabbed 308 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: wounds were overlapping each other, so can't really tell how 309 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: many times she stabbed him, but at least thirty. Then, 310 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: as in the other cases we have analyzed for you, 311 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: she caps it off with a gunshot wound. Too. They 312 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: had They hadn't been together for years and years and years. 313 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: As doctor Johnson and shell Nutt are describing, she was 314 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: poed technical legal term because she had been dating Travis Alexander. 315 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: She wanted to marry him. She even converted to Mormonism 316 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: for him, and he broke up with her because she 317 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: has snakes in her head and she wanted him back desperately. 318 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: So she travels literally across the desert, hiding her tracks, 319 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: has a marathon day of sex, sex, sex sex. When 320 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: he still insists on taking another woman on a camcane shrip, 321 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: she stabs him dead and leaves him to decompose in 322 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: a damp shower. Take a listen to our friend Ryan Owens, 323 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: the thirty year old businessman and developed Mormon, had been 324 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,479 Speaker 1: stabbed twenty seven times, his throat slit so deep he 325 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: was almost decapitated, and he was shot in the head. 326 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: This is over, This is absolutely over. You need to 327 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: tell me truth. On the tape, Arias repeatedly denies she 328 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: was at Alexander's house the day of the crime, even 329 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: after the ever patient detective confronts her with racy pictures 330 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: of her in his bed that day, and even after 331 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: he tells Arius her palm print was found at the 332 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: bloody crime scene. I don't know if you heard that, 333 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: she said, how could that be my palm print? Because 334 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: she killed him? And not only that, Ding Dong accidentally 335 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: took a picture off her own leg and foot with 336 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: a digital camera. She was taking all those porn pictures 337 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: of herself with at the crime. Sana ended up in 338 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: Travis Alexander's Washington dryer set. Well, I wasn't gonna play 339 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: this for you, but Jackie I can't resist it. Don't 340 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: worry too much about Jodi Arius. Yes, she's behind bars 341 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: now for multiple stabbings. Jes Scott and I argue vehemently 342 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: over whether it was twenty nine or thirty stab wounds, 343 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: not twenty seven. But she went on to even greater fame. 344 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: She won America's Got Talent behind bars with this. Listen, 345 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: Oh Holy night, the stars are Bridley Shineing is a 346 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: night of our dear sys longly word and singing. Ever 347 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: piety appeared in the Soul Fountains word Okay, next time, 348 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: please play the part where she hits the high note, 349 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: and she does, in fact hit it. Okay. Here she 350 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: is singing, Ohoe night after she stabs Alexander thirty times, 351 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: severs his head from his neck, and shoots him in 352 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: the head. We've got quite the list of stabbers, but 353 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: Jo's got Morgan that was not part of a long 354 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: simmering feud. She had only known him for about a 355 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: year or so. Yeah. Yeah, And I think a lot 356 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: of it has to do with a trigger mechanism in 357 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: some of these people's mind. What are you saying, trigger mechanism. 358 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: Don't talk that way. I talk like a regular person, 359 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: for Pete's sake, something that absolutely pushes them over the edge. 360 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: You make it kind of sound like it's the victim's fault. No, 361 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think it is at all. As 362 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I think it's something wrong in 363 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: the mechanisms of these people's brains, where you know, they 364 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: see themselves as owning these people and they're going to 365 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,239 Speaker 1: rip them to shreds if they can't. You know how 366 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 1: many times have we looked over those images of Travis 367 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: Alexander and you see that he is absolutely shredded at 368 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: that scene, you know, so much so that you know 369 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: she couldn't just stop with the stabbing, She couldn't just 370 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: stop with the slashing. She actually put a round in 371 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 1: his head, and that round was actually a post mortem event. 372 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: He was dead. There's no hemorrhage in that wound track. 373 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: So you know, for me, it's it's this it's this 374 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: kernel that was planted long, long before she ever met 375 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: Travis Alexander. She's got screw loose and that's why she 376 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: did that. Jo Scott, can I just get you to 377 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: please stay in your line. I know that a lot 378 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: of people frown on that, but let me see. You 379 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: are professor forensics correct. Oh yeah, yeah, that's I mean 380 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: you don't have your m d and your specialty in 381 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: psychologist psychiatry, do you. No. I don't want it either. Yeah, 382 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: me either. You know, I got enough problems I don't 383 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: need to try to figure them all out by being 384 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. Hey, doctor Johnson, we heard Joscot Morgan's technical 385 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: medical analysis that Aris has a quote screw loose. I 386 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: kind of agree with you, Joe Scott. That's the irony here. 387 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: But she is not insane. Did you hear her sticking 388 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: to her guns and lying to the bitter end that 389 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: she did not do it? In fact, according to her, 390 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: two guys dressed up all in black like ninjas broke 391 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: into the home and inexplicably murder Travis and let her 392 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: live and Ultimately she went with self defense, right. But 393 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: what we've got here is over the course of her lifetime, 394 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: this has been developing, and it doesn't have to be 395 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: the same victim that they finally kill that's been brought brooding, 396 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: this pool of resentment and frustration, and of course, like 397 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: someone like Jodie there is very narcissistic and self centered 398 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: and you know, if you harm me, I'm going to 399 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: harm you. But how she defines it in her head, 400 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: she's not mentally unstable. She's not mentally ill. I hate 401 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: it when people say that. But she's simply twisted. And 402 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: we've got personality disorders. That's not mental illness, that's just 403 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: a brooked way of thinking and processing. I'm trying to 404 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: digest everything you just said because it all sounds pretty 405 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: brilliant to me. Did you hear everything he said? Jack Okay? 406 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: James shell Nut, twenty seven years Metro Major Case. James, 407 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: You know, first thing I do every morning is flip 408 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: on and find online and find all crime going on 409 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: around the world is making headlines. And I always notice, 410 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: because it's so early about five am, that the crime 411 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: I'm reading about to start with, it's in different countries 412 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: including Great Britain, and I remember saying to David one morning, 413 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, why is everybody getting stabbed in Great Britain. 414 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: They well, it's because they don't have access to guns 415 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: the way we do in the US, so their mo 416 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: is very often by stabbing. That said shell Nut. I 417 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: see a distinct different friends. Although I'm not a shrink 418 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: like doctor Johnson, I see a distinct difference in the 419 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: mindset of a stabber versus a shooter. Do you can 420 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: you can you verbalize it? Yeah? I can verbalize it. 421 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: I think that it is by the way you said that. 422 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: Remember beep out all cursewords, Jackie, go ahead. Here's what 423 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: I believe. I believe that the offender, the criminal that 424 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: con miss this act, believes that they have been up 425 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: close and personally offended, that they've been up close and 426 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: personally hurt, that they've personally been attacked by the person 427 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: that they're about to kill, and they use this up 428 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: close and personal method to kill to attempt to destroy 429 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: that person. And I'm not certain that it's always planned 430 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: out when you have someone stabbed that many times. I 431 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: think it's a situation where we discussed earlier, has been 432 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: built up and all of a sudden they have something 433 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 1: close to them, a knife in the kitchen or some 434 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: other some other tools that they're able to stab the 435 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: person will, and that it's a convenience factor, that it 436 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: is a spur of the moment factor. They didn't plan it. 437 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: Oftentimes you don't see a bag with gloves or gun 438 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 1: or tape or rope. You just see them pick up 439 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: a knock, will pick up a one object sometimes even 440 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: and just obliterate this person because they snapped. And that's 441 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: what's closes by all of the examples that I agree 442 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: by the way James Slant, all of the examples that 443 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: we've been showing you regarding multiple stabbers, I'm not saying 444 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: mass stabbers, because that would suggest that you stabbed a 445 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: lot of people. I'm saying multiple stabbers where you stab 446 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: one victim over and over and over, as in this 447 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: case with Tammy, Tammy Billy being stabbed one hundred times plus. Now, 448 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: who would do this? In those cases the victims all 449 00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: knew the stabbers, they knew them very well intimately. Who 450 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: would do this to Tammy Bailey? Well, here's a big clue. 451 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend's ABC thirty three forty. 452 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: Upon arrival, Blown County deputies found Justin Fields outside. Mister 453 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: Fields just kept saying things like I've done something really bad. 454 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: Evidences in the house, and it made my deputy extremely nervous. 455 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: They then moved into the home and found Bailey decapitated 456 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: with around one hundred stab wounds. I guess it did 457 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: make the deputy nervous. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back 458 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: to Kyra Purvis joining us special guest investigative reporter with 459 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: ABC thirty forty. Kyra, again, thanks for being with us. So, 460 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: describe the scene when the Blood County deputies got there. 461 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: This guy, Justin Fields was outside and what was it 462 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: that he kept saying. He kept saying, I think I've 463 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: done something bad. I've done something terrible. The evidences inside. 464 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: He even told deputies. You know, they said they were 465 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: going to put him in handcuffs, and he said, go ahead, 466 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: you're going to put me in handcuffs after you find 467 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: with inside. Anyway, you know, I'm always suspicious, doctor Scott Johnson, 468 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: when you come up on a scene and a civilian 469 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: starts talking about evidence, Yes, I mean, certainly someone that 470 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: has some education, you know, self education about crime scenes. Unfortunately, 471 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: they watched the shows on TV, which oftentimes depict good 472 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: police investigative procedure. And so this person had thoughts about 473 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: this was not you know, I'm not saying it was 474 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: premeditated that day, but it was certainly a conscious choice 475 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: with the same mind that he committed the rhyme, and 476 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: he simply was smart enough to know I'm not walking 477 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: away from this. Another thing about it, James shell nutt 478 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: He refers to Tammy's partially dismembered body as evidence. Yeah, 479 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: he refers to his evidence because he knows what he's done. 480 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: He knows that it's the fruit of the crime. He 481 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: knows he's committed the criminal wact. He knows what he's doing. 482 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: He's looked back and figured out what he's done. He 483 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: knows he's got a problem. He knows that there's no 484 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: way out of big problem, a hundred plus problems, Doctor Johnson. 485 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: Shell Nut's right, But I guess I'm trying to verbalize 486 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: something internally, internally different. He's referring to this person, this 487 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: young woman, Tammy Bailey, as evidence, not as a woman, 488 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: not as a beautiful woman, not as my friend, no 489 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: personification whatsoever. He refers to her dead, mutilated body as evidence. 490 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: That's not bothering anybody but me what was wrong. But 491 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: he's detached emotionally from this, and to say that he 492 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: had an intimate connection with her, he didn't. They may 493 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: have had sex and may updated, but emotionally she was 494 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: a thing an object. And so after this crime and 495 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: a heck of a lot easier to say, you know, 496 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: I killed something than it is to say I killed 497 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: the person that I really like or love. But really 498 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: it's a distancing type of language. So you know, he's 499 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: just not wanting to own up to the full of 500 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: I killed someone that I was actually involved with or 501 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: trusted me. Yeah, I just remember the woman that stabbed 502 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: her husband multiple times when he told her the coffee 503 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: tasted bad. Of course, you remember Arius who stabbed Alexander 504 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: because he would not take her on a camcoon trip. 505 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: I hope you're all sitting down. You may need to 506 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: lay down for this one. Talk about motive. Take a 507 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at wb RC Fox six. Thirty 508 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: eight year old Justin Felds and fifty two year old 509 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: Tammy Bailey lived together here on Bailey Drive in Blunt County. 510 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: Sheriff Mark Moon tells me the couple just celebrated his birthday, 511 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: but when they got home from a trip on October 512 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: twenty first, Fields tells police he went into her room 513 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: and stabbed her. He wanted to have sex with her, 514 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: so he went into her bedroom and propositioned her and 515 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: she turned it down, and according to his statement, that 516 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: frustrated him, and he said that he stabbed her one 517 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: time and then he blacked out. It's really convenient how 518 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,239 Speaker 1: people after they committed murder, or in the midst of 519 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: her murder black out. For those of you that can't 520 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: see me, I'm definitely using air quoties. So wait, he 521 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: wants to have sex? She says no, So he stabs 522 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: her one hundred plus times and chops her head off. 523 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: What he can listen to our friends at w VT 524 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: M thirteen. Fields told deputies that frustrated him, so he 525 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: stabbed her once in the chest. He then claims to 526 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: have blacked out. He woke up and thought he was 527 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: having a bad dream and went in there and stabber 528 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,720 Speaker 1: some more. Kyra Herb is joining me from ABC thirty 529 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: three forty Kyra, what could you explain that? So he says, 530 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: I want sex? She says no, so he stabs her, 531 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: goes into his room, blacks out, wakes up in his room, 532 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: and goes back in and stabs her some more and 533 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: dismembers her. Is that his story? Yes, And it's important 534 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: to note that he said he blacked out and went 535 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: to sleep. This is the next day, this is now 536 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: Saturday morning when he comes in and decides that he 537 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: is going to stab her over one hundred time. And 538 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: while he was blacked out, he just happened to have 539 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: the stabbing instrument in his hand. He just keeps a 540 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: knife on him or I'm a chatty by the bad 541 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: but mean, that doesn't even make any say, it's kind 542 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: of purposing. Tell me exactly what this guy justin Fields, 543 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: thirty eight years old, says happened. He says he went 544 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: to screen, he blacked out. He didn't tell investigators where 545 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: he got his knife from, some type of eight inch 546 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: quote survival knife. We don't know where he got that 547 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: knife from, walked back in from his room into her 548 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: room and stabbed this room multiple times. That's what he 549 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 1: told investigators, Jessica Morgan. Isn't that what the cough syrup 550 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: killer said? He said he was having a bad dream. Yeah, yeah, 551 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: and that's what a lot of these guys say. You know, 552 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: you mentioned this idea of blacking out, and let me 553 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: kind of describe this to you. When Fields was allegedly 554 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: using this knife to stab this poor woman one hundred times, 555 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: imagine if you will just conjure up this image in 556 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: your mind of an automatic sewing machine where the needle 557 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: is going up and down, up and down, up and down. 558 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 1: You're telling me that he's blacked out while this knife 559 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: is raised over and over and over again. They're saying 560 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: they've got account of one hundred. Now this doesn't include 561 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: the dismemberment. And so you think about this knife going 562 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: in and out and out, in and out like this, 563 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: over and over again. This seems like you would have 564 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: to have some kind of awareness of the fact that 565 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: you're doing this. You'd have to position your body. This 566 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: would be a very intimate event. He would probably be 567 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: directly on top of her, because you know what they said. 568 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: The sheriff actually stated that he felt like the first 569 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: blow was this one in the middle line of the 570 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: chest to the heart. Then after that, why does he 571 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: keep on going? Why does he think that it's necessary 572 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: to stab her? An additional if we're doing the arithmetic correctly, 573 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: ninety nine toms. Those are all post mortem injuries at 574 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: that and of course there's a dismemberment or the partial dismemberment. 575 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: And once again the cough serp killer has a dream. O. J. 576 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: Simpson's a dream that he murdered Nicole Brown. Now this 577 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: guy says he had a dream. And know what stopped 578 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: with the dreams? You did it? Take a listen to 579 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: our friends at Fox six. Moon says, they believe she 580 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: died after the Friday night attack, but that wasn't the 581 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: last attack on Bailey. When he woke up on Saturday 582 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: went back in there, they felt he was having a 583 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: bad dream and for some reason standard multiple times again. 584 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: Bailey's sister then comes over to check on her, but 585 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: Fields won't let her inside, telling her he's done something horrible. 586 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: That's when she calls police. The offender tells him on 587 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: the body camp that I've done something really bad. Evidences 588 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: in the house. If you go in there, you're gonna 589 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 1: see it's really bad. They found Bailey's body in her room. 590 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: Moon says she was dead on the scene and her 591 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: body had also been dismembered. It was over one hundred 592 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: stab wounds, but there's no way to really be able 593 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: to tell her many and he says, I think I 594 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 1: did something bad. Yeah, you did. You did something bad? 595 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: All right? Kyra Purvis joining us from ABC. Where does 596 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: the case stand right now? Kyra well Fields was in 597 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: court on November second, but we're still awaiting when he's 598 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: going to have that next court date. He is in 599 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 1: the Blunt County Jail right now and being held without bonds, 600 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,959 Speaker 1: So we're really just waiting on the courts to see 601 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: what they're going to determine. Even though he did admit, 602 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: there's still a lot of things that we have to 603 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: go through, obviously with the case and things like that, 604 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,439 Speaker 1: did this POC actually say not guilty? I'm not sure. 605 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: I don't think they can. They do have this recorded confession. 606 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: There's evidence it shouldn't, but we never know who. You know, Well, 607 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: that's the first time I've laughed all day. And he's 608 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: likely gonna plead and I don't believe this, but you 609 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: can bet if the defense is offered, it's going to 610 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: be a mental insanity defense. And that's what all these 611 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: guys please when this occurs, and that's gonna be that's 612 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: gonna be what he says. Okay, yeah, did you hear 613 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: what Kyra Purvis just said. She said he shouldn't and 614 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: she's right, yeah, he shouldn't. Plead not guilty, but I 615 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: guarantee you she'll nuts her. He will interplate. I'm not guilty, 616 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: hoping for a sweetheard deal to anything less than the 617 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: death penalty, and you just might get it. And I 618 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: oppose that right. And I want to chime in here 619 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: on the whole concept of blackout. Blackout is about not 620 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: being able to recall. Blackout has nothing to do with 621 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: at the moment what I'm doing. I don't know what 622 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: I'm doing. Second is, we've got the research to prove, 623 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: and I trained police officers one offenders never had a 624 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: damn blackout. We can get to what happened in the 625 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: crime because there's a memory of it. When you look 626 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: at these rageful incidents like this case, there's a memory 627 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: of it, and for the offender it was a good 628 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: memory because they're venting. And so to say I don't 629 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: remember what I did. How the heck do you do 630 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: any type of act and not know what you're doing 631 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: When you do it with precision, You're hearing doctor Scott 632 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: and Johnson speaking and doctor Johnson. I bet he'll have 633 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: plenty of time to remember what happened behind bars. Goodbye friends,