WEBVTT - How Freedom of the Press Works 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.560 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:15.920 and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:23.480 stuff you should know constitutional uh Professor's edition. All right. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:25.800 It was the best I could come up with on 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:27.640 such short notis I only had a couple of days 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:29.840 to think of it. Yeah, this one was sort of 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:38.360 depressing for me. Yeah. Yeah, because we're talking about freedom 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.879 of the press, and while we have that in the 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.520 United States, I mean, I guess we can go ahead 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.280 and spoil a little bit. If you look at rankings 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:52.720 of freedoms of the press is worldwide, we're not near 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.400 the top of that list, my friend. No, the UM 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.960 Reporters without Borders. It's a French organization. They um they 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:07.240 basically rate um the uh the press freedoms I guess 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.600 in a hundred and eighty different countries as either as 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:16.679 either hot or not and wore it best, right, So um, 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.840 that's basically the state of the press anyway. So UM, 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:25.400 the United States is number forty four. It's actually down 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.240 to two slots. It used to be forty two for 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.880 a few years before that. So um, if you want 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.360 to know more about that. Check out the World Press 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.000 Freedom Index because it goes into a lot more detail. 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:42.440 And who's number one? Of course Number one is Finland, right, yeah, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.120 I mean the top five is riddled with countries in 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:51.160 that area as always, Sweden, Denmark, Costa Rica, get it 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.120 all right, Costa Rica. That was a wild card, but 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.280 good for them. Yeah, but it's it's nice to see. Yeah, 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.240 hats off Costa Rica. But yeah, it's like you said, 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.400 in the United States, we absolutely, without question have guaranteed 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.880 freedom of the press, but in practice it's a much 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.040 much different thing. Altogether. There's a lot of different ways 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.000 that the press can be limited in what it says, uh, 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.720 for for good or bad. I mean, there are definitely 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.360 times where it's like, yeah, that's that's not really anything 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.080 anyone needs to know about necessarily, especially like say reporting 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.600 on the failings of a private citizen or something like that. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:32.239 But um, overall, the idea of a press reporting um 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.920 of like a journalism that that is like just able 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.040 to really get to the heart of a matter and 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.600 explain it without restriction on what it says or how 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.080 it explains it or what it talks about. It's really 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:48.560 really important and we definitely equate it with democracy. It's 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.280 like one of the pillars of a free society is 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.200 a free press. And we also kind of trace a 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.640 chuck back to the First Amendment, UM, and it definitely 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.639 was enshrined there. But even after the First Amendment was 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:05.560 created in the Bill of Rights in UM, America was like, okay, 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.200 we we put that in there. Let's just forget about 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.799 it for a century or so. Yeah, I mean, it's 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.520 it's been what Paul McCartney would call a long and 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.840 winding road. Okay, that's a song by the Beatles, by 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.680 the Way I Got You. I figured that from context 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.000 they've never heard it. I also figured from context that 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.160 I probably wouldn't like that song. That's a great song. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.480 Uh So should we go back in time and sort 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.720 of poke around at the beginnings? Yeah, because it's not 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.760 like America came up with that, right, No, of course not. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.040 Uh what I love like kind of one of my 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.520 favorite things every time we talk about UM the beginnings 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.520 of the printed word is the fact that and this 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.720 was starting in the fifteenth century when the printing press 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.360 became a big thing, like and one of the reasons 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.680 for creating their printing press like, some of the very 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:59.040 first things were people writing about and writers were usually 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.720 also printers, but people writing about criticisms of either the 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.040 church or the government. A lot of times those were 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.800 kind of one and the same, and it was it's 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.080 just kind of cool to look back and think all 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.440 the way back then. One of the big reasons the 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.960 printed word existed and became so widespread was so people 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.120 could talk to one another when they had a you know, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:25.599 sometimes despotic government looming over them. Yeah. So if you 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.479 were the head of a despotic government, um, with a 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.320 suddenly printing press in your country, you wanted to try 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.000 to limit that as much as you can. So I 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.840 wanted to destroy that printing press from right right exactly. UM. 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.720 So you would have laws that basically said, no one 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.120 can release a book until the government has read it 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.839 and signed off on it. UM. Laws like that they 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:50.640 are also criminal laws. UM. I believe in England there 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:56.320 was um uh seditious libel and blasphemous libel, and libel 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.760 was basically not exactly liabel as we understand it today. 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.120 It was if you say anything mean or bad or 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.480 critical of either the government or the church, even if 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.200 it's true you can go to jail for that even 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.920 if it's true. Yeah, factual printing, factual things, Yeah, which 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.240 is so contrary to the concept of you know, any 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.840 kind of freedom, especially freedom of speech or freedom of 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.240 the press as we understand it today. But that was 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.760 that was just kind of how things were for a 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.680 good century or so after the printing press was created. Yeah, 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.839 and one of the big turning points. And these guys 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.960 really it's amazing how how like hard they nailed it 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.119 so long ago. But there were these essays named John 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:45.040 Trenchard and Thomas Gordon who wrote for in the American 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:48.800 Colonies Britain's American Colonies between the seventeen early seventeen twenties. 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.160 I guess it was all in the early seventeen twenties, 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.600 and they wrote under a pseudonym what was called the 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:59.719 cape Cato's Letters and named after obviously the Roman statesman. 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.440 But they really nailed the fact right out of the 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.560 gate that like free speech is an essential thing and 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:11.960 citizens being able to like communicate with one another. And 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.760 you know, of course back then it was like you know, 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.080 a letter that you would print up and and nail 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.919 upon a wall, or you would have chained letters that 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:21.920 people would forwage one another. It was sort of like 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.520 they're forwarding an email back then. But the people, the 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.200 citizenry of the world needed to be able to speak 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.600 to one another about their grievances and not have their 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.719 voices squashed. I think they even uh they talked about libel. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.840 They said, it's wrong to criticize private and personal failings, 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.359 even of public figures. And citizens must be free to 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.520 discuss officials actions when they affect people. And this wasn't 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.080 a notion like I think you sent me that extra 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.080 thing that said, like prior to this, the notion of 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.080 free speech wasn't even like a political rallying cry. No, 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.520 it just wasn't a thing like you can basically say 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.640 that trend. Tridan Gordon essentially made it up or or 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.640 put better. They discovered it, you know, the importance of it, 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.360 and they the importance that they placed on it was 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.000 twofold one. They said, people need information because the more 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.200 information you give the general public, the better the decisions 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.760 that they're going to make are. And in a democracy, 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.080 if you're letting the general public vote on stuff, they 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.280 need they need to be informed. You just can't keep 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.040 a lid on on facts. And then the other thing 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.440 that they said too that was really really important is 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.440 they said free speech is so important that even the 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:38.760 person whose opinions you disagree with has should have freedom 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.040 of speech. And that was a mind blowing new concept 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.000 because in the Colonies prior to that, it was a 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.400 lot like it is today. I should have free speech, 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.679 but if I don't agree with you, you shouldn't. Yeah, 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.120 And I feel like this stuff really hits home for 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.280 me and for us as a show, because even though 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.040 we're not journalists and we never claim to be, we're 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.120 not a new show. I feel like we always championed 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.520 the idea of like knowledge is power. Kind of going 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.600 back to the kids. What was that was that kids 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:12.040 in the hall? Now, I feel like it was a 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:17.280 kid's educational knowledgeist power? Is it? Say by the belt? 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.720 That's what it was. Screech said that at the end 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.680 of every episode. Um, no, you're talking about the more 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.520 you know? Now, I'm talking about the literally knowledgeist power 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.920 is it? It might have been uh schoolhouse Rock, it 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.080 might have been one of their things. But anyway, this 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:33.679 just hit home for me because I feel like we've 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.320 always tried to be a show that we get stuff 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.320 wrong here and there, but we try to spread facts 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.360 about things, and it's not news, he related always sometimes 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.040 it is, but just about the world. Like the more 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.040 you know, the better off you are as a human. Yeah, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.560 Like I said, the more you know with a star over. 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:57.120 A big early victory legally speaking, came in seventeen thirty five. 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.920 There was again a journalist who was also a prey. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.960 Her name John Peter Zinger. He's he's he's really good 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.200 with a joke at a cocktail party. That's where that 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.959 comes from. Hey, that was his catch friend. Uh, so 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.960 he was printing attacks on I believe it or not. 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.720 William Cosby was the guy's name. Cosby's are always up 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.520 to something. Yeah, I don't think he went by Bill, 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.760 but uh this was the colony's governor, New York's governor 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:29.120 at the time, and he was arrested, jailed for liabel 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.920 for about ten months, and managed to beat the rap 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.440 at the trial. Even though that he was acquitted. It's 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.520 kind of confusing because he was a critic acquitted on 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.719 the grounds that he was printing factual things. But as 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.880 we said before, like even if you were printing factual things, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.320 that didn't matter this particular jury just chose to ignore that. Yeah, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.320 jury nullification. They said, we think this law is wrong. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.920 They were convinced of it by a guy named Andrew 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:58.880 Hamilton's who became Zenger's lawyer after his first two lawyers 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.600 were disbarred from by the judge in the case for 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.319 questioning the judges conflict of interest. And it was like 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:08.560 quite a conflict of interest, Chuck. The whole thing was 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:14.720 over the removal of a judge that Governor Cosby found troublesome, 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.760 and his replacement was the judge that was hearing this 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:23.080 case trying the guy who printed stuff about how corrupt 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.920 that movement, that removal of the judge was. That's how 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.360 screwed up this case was. And the the Andrew Hamilton's 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.920 still managed to get the jury to ignore the law 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.080 and to quit Zenger, which was a huge deal. It 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.839 didn't immediately like open the floodgates and now all of 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.360 a sudden there was just press freedom everywhere, but it 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.479 definitely laid a foundation or helped build on the foundation 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:48.480 that Trenchard and Gordon had first elucidated. Um, you know, 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.000 just a few decades before and this is a few 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.040 years after that chuck um. Sweden, I guess heard about 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.040 all of the hubbub going on in the American colonies 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.000 and said, um, we want to be first first. Sweden 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.480 likes to to do that and comments on the internet 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.360 they just right first everywhere. Yeah, they said, yeah, sure, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.040 that'sn't it wrong to say? Surely the Swedes have a 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.600 good sense of humor about that, Right, we'll find out. 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.720 Maybe do we have listeners there? Sure? All right, I 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.000 don't know that we've ever don't remember any emails from 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.880 Sweden when we call them the Dozen, but yeah, the Dozen, 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.959 the dirty dozen. Although they're very clean people, that's right, 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.920 the fastidious doesn't. So yeah, this was in December seventeen 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.440 sixty six. They were the first country to pass the 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.760 Free of Freedom of Press Act. But it wasn't all 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.280 that was cracked up to be. Uh, they still censor things. 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:44.040 They basically put the onus on the publishers instead of 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.080 the government to censor things. So, you know, good for 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.120 you in a way, Sweden. But this is just part 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.880 of that long and winding road. But but one thing 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.520 that that act also did was, um, say, if you're 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.600 a citizen of Sweden, you have a right to access 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.960 government documents to see what your government's doing. So in 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.760 one way it was not at all helpful. In another way, 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:09.360 it was pretty sweeping, you know. And then Virginia um said, 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.520 all right, well, Sweden was first in the world, we 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.280 want to be first in the in the colonies. I 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.400 guess the States because they know I guess it would 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:19.800 have been the colony still because they came up with 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.360 um part of their charter, or they made amendment to 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:27.080 their charter that said, Um, we really like what Trenchard 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.679 and Gordon came up with, we like what Zinger stood for, 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.200 and um, we're gonna include the idea that quote, freedom 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.760 of the press is one of the greatest bullworks for 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:40.319 liberty and that can never be restrained but by despotic governments. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.480 So they're saying, like, if you have freedom of the press, 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.800 freedom of spree, speech like that will actually defend liberty 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.920 by holding despotism at bay. Because if people know, and 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.440 this is the basis of all this, chuck, if people 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.520 know what's going on, they will hold people to account. 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.400 If people don't know what's going on, people who are 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:06.720 attracted to power tend to go um toward the dark side. Yeah, 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.240 I mean that's really it. It's it's again, knowledge is 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.360 power if you and well we'll get to all that, 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.920 because there are certain nations of the world that don't 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.559 do that, and we'd see it playing out all the time. Uh. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.040 The U s A. You know, you think when we 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.840 got the First Amendment going on, that hey, it's all 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.160 it's all great now, But as you hinted at earlier, 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.520 it would be a hundred plus years until they were 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:36.160 truly sort of like protections for the press. Uh. Seven 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.320 years after the First Amendment was born, it was just 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.720 a little baby in first or second grade. Uh, Congress 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:48.960 pass the Sedition Act of s and uh, you know, 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:50.800 said we can deport you, we can find you, we 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.720 can imprison you if you publish false, scandalous or malicious writing. 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.560 And you know, scandalous and malicious are very broad terms 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.000 to use when you're saying, like you, if you print 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.880 that against the federal government, then that's you know, something 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.080 we can do bad things to you for. Uh. And 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:12.400 it just lasted a few years, that particular act, but 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:16.040 it would come up again later on in a different form, right. 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.080 And also just um a little tidbit on that that 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.600 act was passed by the Federalists who were in power, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.200 they had the White House and Congress, um, and they 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.360 passed that act in part to um hold that power, 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.000 to maintain that power, to keep from being criticized in 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.840 the press. And apparently, um, the early Americans found out 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.960 about this what was going on, and they disliked that 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.640 law so much that they actually voted the Federalists side 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.720 of office. And that's how Jefferson became president. That's right, 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.280 that's a little yeah and backfired. That's what happens when 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.040 you try to put a strangle on the power. The 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.720 people say nay. People say nay, and I say, let's 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.040 take a break. Okay, let's get those dinner party invitations 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.560 going and get Zinger on the list, and we'll be 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:23.040 right back. All right, we need to talk a little 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.560 bit about the Supreme Court of the United States, because 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.880 here's where it all really begins. Yeah, they factor in 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:34.520 obviously pretty large here at um Well I mentioned this 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.080 Edition Act. There was another Sedition Act that came along 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:42.480 in nineteen eighteen, which again criminalized a lot of political speech. 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.920 And this is pretty broad as well. It was a 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:51.760 crime to willfully utter, print, right or publish disloyal very vague, profane, 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.640 not as vague, uh scirrel us super vague or abusive language, 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.880 a little bit vague about the form of government of 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.360 United States, or to speak out against war. And they 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.600 you know, they went after people. They prosecuted uh close 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.440 to two thousand people under the Sedition Act uh and 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.240 the Espionage Act, and the Supreme Court upheld some of these, 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.560 but it at least got them talking. Yeah. So that's 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.920 a really critical thing is the Supreme Court at the 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.360 time was like, we generally agree with that law. But 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.080 all of this, all these cases that were reaching the 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:31.200 Supreme Court at the time about you know, freedom of speech. Um. Yeah, 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.400 like you said, it got them talking. And in particular, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.840 Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Lewis Brandeis kind of 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:43.080 banded together and brought their their rather considerable um juristic 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.720 minds to bear on the idea of um, free speech 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:49.960 and freedom of the press and like what that meant 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.120 and what protections it should have, And they used their 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:57.000 tenure on the Supreme Court to basically establish precedent in 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:01.920 the United States that said, everything you understand about freedom 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.680 of speech and freedom of the press, uh, we're going 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.760 to basically enshrined together through some basically opinions, not even 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:13.120 necessarily like um to sending opinions. Sometimes they appended their 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:18.520 support for you know, um upholding somebody being um uh 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.640 convicted under the sedition actor espion object. But they would 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.720 say things like, you know, um, if you if you 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.600 put people out there and let them talk, you're going 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.240 to have like an exchange of ideas, and the best 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.240 ideas are going to bubble to the top. And so 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.320 this whole idea of freedom of speech that led up 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.000 to Oliver Wendell Holmes that it was a personal liberty 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.439 that you were guaranteed into democracy. They said, yeah, true. 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.560 In addition to that, it's actually a common good if 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.840 you have free speech, because us the best idea can 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.840 be compared and compete against rival ideas, and the one 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.040 that suits society best can win the day because it's 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:06.159 been debated and hashed out in the marketplace of ideas. 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:11.199 Right and Holmes champion the marketplace of ideas idea, But 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:16.359 that was originally uttered by another justice right, yeah, William O. 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.080 Douglas back in the fifties, so about forty years after that. 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.040 But a lot of people credit Oliver Wendell Holmes for 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.119 for coming up with that. Yeah, he just liked to 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.280 wear it on his on his robe, on the back 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:32.439 of his robe in Rhyinstone. Oh man, that'd be nice. Uh. 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:37.000 So ur comes another big milestone. Supreme Court heard New 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:42.159 York Times v. Sullivan and this was this was pretty 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.200 interesting and this was boy, this was a big one 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.640 because this is where we finally got the idea that 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.280 libel isn't just a word that means you said something mean. 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.919 Libel means that you you had actual malice behind it. 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.680 And that is still the standard by which we judge libel. Uh. 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.320 This was an ad in nineteen sixty uh in the 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.639 New York Times. It was run by the UH it 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.520 was or I guess paid for by civil rights advocates, 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.160 and it was criticizing officials in the South for violating 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:16.480 civil rights. But it had a few um factual inaccuracies 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.880 inaccuracies in there, one of which was how many times 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.399 uh Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Had been arrested. So 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.360 they didn't take kindly to that down there. Uh. There 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.880 was a police commissioner in Alabama that filed the defamation lawsuit. 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.560 Alabama Supreme Court agreed with him, But then the U. S. 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.120 Supreme Court went on to overturn that ruling with just 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:42.439 a milestone majority opinion, which was, you know, actual malice 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.680 has to be approven, and it's on you to prove 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.240 that they meant to have malice. And that is was 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.760 a huge, huge and continues to be a huge deal. Yeah, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.119 because prior to that, it was, you know, up to 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.360 this this decision, if you said anything wrong and there 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.600 was any kind of factual er in that you were 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.800 at at fault, and that would have an enormous chilling 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:07.200 effect on the press. And and that's a huge deal. 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.040 That's like part and parcel with protecting press freedom is 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.800 to also guard against a chilling effect that can happen 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.200 where that that kind of comes about when things are unclear, 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.520 when you're not quite certain of where the line is 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.680 or anything like that, people start to kind of c 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.200 o a, you know, And so they prevented that by 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.119 saying no. Now it's on the person who has supposedly 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:35.880 been defamed to prove that that person willfully reported facts 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.440 that they knew were wrong. Then you've got slandered, then 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.000 you've got liabel. But up to that point, if you 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.960 can't prove that, then you're you're in the clear press. Yeah, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.160 and here's the thing, like this was a big deal 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:52.040 because humans make mistakes. I think there's been none. I 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:56.639 think it's pretty clear. Over the past, oh, I don't know, uh, 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.879 five years or so, there's been this notion that the 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.919 press purposefully gets things wrong to to back up whatever 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:09.320 opinion they have on something. And by and large, journalists 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.280 in the United States do have integrity and and they 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.640 want true journalists, not you know, entertainment journalism, but true 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.720 journalists want to get things right because their reputation is 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.520 at stake, and the publications they work for their reputation 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.359 as at stake. And you were a journalist for a while. 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:28.879 I was a journalist for a while. You want to 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.560 get the stuff right. And if you don't, you can't 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.000 have a law hanging above you. What you do is 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.400 you make it right, and you print retractions and say, 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:41.480 I goofed up. But uh, it's just it's Yeah, I 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:45.600 can't stay on the soapbox because of like onion juice 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.840 will start squirting out of my pores. Yeah, I'm sure that. Wow, 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.760 that was really growsy. I was trying to think of 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.919 something disgusting that. Yeah, I think, well you nailed it 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.880 on the head, Charlis. That was really good work. Um yeah. 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:02.960 The problem with that though, the last part that you 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:05.320 hit upon is the retraction and saying you goofed up. 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:07.359 Those are a few and far between and when they 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:12.480 are done there. Yeah, so there's like not enough effort 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:17.840 to restore someone's good name if it's been besmirched, to 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.959 to get all nineteenth century on on you, um, you know, 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.639 through retractions, through things like that, and like making an 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:28.720 effort to say, hey, we actually really got this wrong. Um. 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:30.960 You know. I think it's gotten better at the on 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:35.000 the with the Internet because it's printed below the article 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.240 that got it wrong. Initially they'll say that this was incorrect, 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.080 so it's gotten way better. But back in the days 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.720 of print only um or even network TV, like, those 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.560 retractions were just so far separated from the actual error 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:52.640 that they might as well just not connected them at all. 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.480 Uh So, what let's talk a little bit about the 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.879 Pentagon papers because that was another I feel like I 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:02.359 had an extra P in there. Didn't say Pentapon today No, okay, 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.840 it's I can't get pessling in juice? Why did that 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.040 come out of my mouth. That was so weird. It 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.399 came out of your mouth, your poor, your ears, my god, 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:15.919 your h oh boy. Uh yeah, let's talk about the 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:20.199 Pentagon papers in seventy one. What was that all about? Well? So, uh, 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.480 what was his name? The Ford exact? Who was will 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.479 you McNamara. He was the fog of War guy. Right. 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:32.359 He ordered um like basically a forty seven volume exhaustive 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.800 investigation in history of the United States involvement in Vietnam 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:39.399