1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: stuff you should know constitutional uh Professor's edition. All right. 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: It was the best I could come up with on 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: such short notis I only had a couple of days 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: to think of it. Yeah, this one was sort of 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: depressing for me. Yeah. Yeah, because we're talking about freedom 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: of the press, and while we have that in the 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: United States, I mean, I guess we can go ahead 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: and spoil a little bit. If you look at rankings 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: of freedoms of the press is worldwide, we're not near 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: the top of that list, my friend. No, the UM 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: Reporters without Borders. It's a French organization. They um they 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: basically rate um the uh the press freedoms I guess 16 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: in a hundred and eighty different countries as either as 17 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: either hot or not and wore it best, right, So um, 18 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: that's basically the state of the press anyway. So UM, 19 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: the United States is number forty four. It's actually down 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: to two slots. It used to be forty two for 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: a few years before that. So um, if you want 22 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: to know more about that. Check out the World Press 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: Freedom Index because it goes into a lot more detail. 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: And who's number one? Of course Number one is Finland, right, yeah, 25 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: I mean the top five is riddled with countries in 26 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: that area as always, Sweden, Denmark, Costa Rica, get it 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: all right, Costa Rica. That was a wild card, but 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: good for them. Yeah, but it's it's nice to see. Yeah, 29 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: hats off Costa Rica. But yeah, it's like you said, 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: in the United States, we absolutely, without question have guaranteed 31 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: freedom of the press, but in practice it's a much 32 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: much different thing. Altogether. There's a lot of different ways 33 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: that the press can be limited in what it says, uh, 34 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: for for good or bad. I mean, there are definitely 35 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: times where it's like, yeah, that's that's not really anything 36 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: anyone needs to know about necessarily, especially like say reporting 37 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: on the failings of a private citizen or something like that. 38 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: But um, overall, the idea of a press reporting um 39 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: of like a journalism that that is like just able 40 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: to really get to the heart of a matter and 41 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: explain it without restriction on what it says or how 42 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: it explains it or what it talks about. It's really 43 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: really important and we definitely equate it with democracy. It's 44 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: like one of the pillars of a free society is 45 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: a free press. And we also kind of trace a 46 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: chuck back to the First Amendment, UM, and it definitely 47 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: was enshrined there. But even after the First Amendment was 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: created in the Bill of Rights in UM, America was like, okay, 49 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: we we put that in there. Let's just forget about 50 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: it for a century or so. Yeah, I mean, it's 51 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: it's been what Paul McCartney would call a long and 52 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: winding road. Okay, that's a song by the Beatles, by 53 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: the Way I Got You. I figured that from context 54 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: they've never heard it. I also figured from context that 55 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't like that song. That's a great song. 56 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: Uh So should we go back in time and sort 57 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: of poke around at the beginnings? Yeah, because it's not 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: like America came up with that, right, No, of course not. 59 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: Uh what I love like kind of one of my 60 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: favorite things every time we talk about UM the beginnings 61 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: of the printed word is the fact that and this 62 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: was starting in the fifteenth century when the printing press 63 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: became a big thing, like and one of the reasons 64 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: for creating their printing press like, some of the very 65 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: first things were people writing about and writers were usually 66 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: also printers, but people writing about criticisms of either the 67 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: church or the government. A lot of times those were 68 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: kind of one and the same, and it was it's 69 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: just kind of cool to look back and think all 70 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: the way back then. One of the big reasons the 71 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: printed word existed and became so widespread was so people 72 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: could talk to one another when they had a you know, 73 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: sometimes despotic government looming over them. Yeah. So if you 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: were the head of a despotic government, um, with a 75 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: suddenly printing press in your country, you wanted to try 76 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: to limit that as much as you can. So I 77 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: wanted to destroy that printing press from right right exactly. UM. 78 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: So you would have laws that basically said, no one 79 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: can release a book until the government has read it 80 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: and signed off on it. UM. Laws like that they 81 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: are also criminal laws. UM. I believe in England there 82 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: was um uh seditious libel and blasphemous libel, and libel 83 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: was basically not exactly liabel as we understand it today. 84 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: It was if you say anything mean or bad or 85 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: critical of either the government or the church, even if 86 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: it's true you can go to jail for that even 87 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: if it's true. Yeah, factual printing, factual things, Yeah, which 88 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: is so contrary to the concept of you know, any 89 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: kind of freedom, especially freedom of speech or freedom of 90 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: the press as we understand it today. But that was 91 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: that was just kind of how things were for a 92 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: good century or so after the printing press was created. Yeah, 93 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: and one of the big turning points. And these guys 94 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: really it's amazing how how like hard they nailed it 95 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: so long ago. But there were these essays named John 96 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: Trenchard and Thomas Gordon who wrote for in the American 97 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: Colonies Britain's American Colonies between the seventeen early seventeen twenties. 98 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: I guess it was all in the early seventeen twenties, 99 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: and they wrote under a pseudonym what was called the 100 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: cape Cato's Letters and named after obviously the Roman statesman. 101 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: But they really nailed the fact right out of the 102 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: gate that like free speech is an essential thing and 103 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: citizens being able to like communicate with one another. And 104 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, of course back then it was like you know, 105 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: a letter that you would print up and and nail 106 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: upon a wall, or you would have chained letters that 107 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: people would forwage one another. It was sort of like 108 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: they're forwarding an email back then. But the people, the 109 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: citizenry of the world needed to be able to speak 110 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: to one another about their grievances and not have their 111 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: voices squashed. I think they even uh they talked about libel. 112 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: They said, it's wrong to criticize private and personal failings, 113 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: even of public figures. And citizens must be free to 114 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: discuss officials actions when they affect people. And this wasn't 115 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: a notion like I think you sent me that extra 116 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: thing that said, like prior to this, the notion of 117 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: free speech wasn't even like a political rallying cry. No, 118 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: it just wasn't a thing like you can basically say 119 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: that trend. Tridan Gordon essentially made it up or or 120 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: put better. They discovered it, you know, the importance of it, 121 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: and they the importance that they placed on it was 122 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: twofold one. They said, people need information because the more 123 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: information you give the general public, the better the decisions 124 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: that they're going to make are. And in a democracy, 125 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: if you're letting the general public vote on stuff, they 126 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: need they need to be informed. You just can't keep 127 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: a lid on on facts. And then the other thing 128 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: that they said too that was really really important is 129 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: they said free speech is so important that even the 130 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: person whose opinions you disagree with has should have freedom 131 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: of speech. And that was a mind blowing new concept 132 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: because in the Colonies prior to that, it was a 133 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: lot like it is today. I should have free speech, 134 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,679 Speaker 1: but if I don't agree with you, you shouldn't. Yeah, 135 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: And I feel like this stuff really hits home for 136 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: me and for us as a show, because even though 137 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: we're not journalists and we never claim to be, we're 138 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: not a new show. I feel like we always championed 139 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: the idea of like knowledge is power. Kind of going 140 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: back to the kids. What was that was that kids 141 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: in the hall? Now, I feel like it was a 142 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: kid's educational knowledgeist power? Is it? Say by the belt? 143 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: That's what it was. Screech said that at the end 144 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: of every episode. Um, no, you're talking about the more 145 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: you know? Now, I'm talking about the literally knowledgeist power 146 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: is it? It might have been uh schoolhouse Rock, it 147 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: might have been one of their things. But anyway, this 148 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: just hit home for me because I feel like we've 149 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: always tried to be a show that we get stuff 150 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: wrong here and there, but we try to spread facts 151 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: about things, and it's not news, he related always sometimes 152 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: it is, but just about the world. Like the more 153 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, the better off you are as a human. Yeah, 154 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: Like I said, the more you know with a star over. 155 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: A big early victory legally speaking, came in seventeen thirty five. 156 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: There was again a journalist who was also a prey. 157 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: Her name John Peter Zinger. He's he's he's really good 158 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: with a joke at a cocktail party. That's where that 159 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: comes from. Hey, that was his catch friend. Uh, so 160 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: he was printing attacks on I believe it or not. 161 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: William Cosby was the guy's name. Cosby's are always up 162 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: to something. Yeah, I don't think he went by Bill, 163 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: but uh this was the colony's governor, New York's governor 164 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: at the time, and he was arrested, jailed for liabel 165 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: for about ten months, and managed to beat the rap 166 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: at the trial. Even though that he was acquitted. It's 167 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: kind of confusing because he was a critic acquitted on 168 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 1: the grounds that he was printing factual things. But as 169 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: we said before, like even if you were printing factual things, 170 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: that didn't matter this particular jury just chose to ignore that. Yeah, 171 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: jury nullification. They said, we think this law is wrong. 172 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: They were convinced of it by a guy named Andrew 173 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: Hamilton's who became Zenger's lawyer after his first two lawyers 174 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: were disbarred from by the judge in the case for 175 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: questioning the judges conflict of interest. And it was like 176 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: quite a conflict of interest, Chuck. The whole thing was 177 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: over the removal of a judge that Governor Cosby found troublesome, 178 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: and his replacement was the judge that was hearing this 179 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: case trying the guy who printed stuff about how corrupt 180 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: that movement, that removal of the judge was. That's how 181 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: screwed up this case was. And the the Andrew Hamilton's 182 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: still managed to get the jury to ignore the law 183 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: and to quit Zenger, which was a huge deal. It 184 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: didn't immediately like open the floodgates and now all of 185 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: a sudden there was just press freedom everywhere, but it 186 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,479 Speaker 1: definitely laid a foundation or helped build on the foundation 187 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: that Trenchard and Gordon had first elucidated. Um, you know, 188 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: just a few decades before and this is a few 189 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: years after that chuck um. Sweden, I guess heard about 190 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: all of the hubbub going on in the American colonies 191 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: and said, um, we want to be first first. Sweden 192 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: likes to to do that and comments on the internet 193 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: they just right first everywhere. Yeah, they said, yeah, sure, 194 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: that'sn't it wrong to say? Surely the Swedes have a 195 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: good sense of humor about that, Right, we'll find out. 196 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: Maybe do we have listeners there? Sure? All right, I 197 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: don't know that we've ever don't remember any emails from 198 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: Sweden when we call them the Dozen, but yeah, the Dozen, 199 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: the dirty dozen. Although they're very clean people, that's right, 200 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: the fastidious doesn't. So yeah, this was in December seventeen 201 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: sixty six. They were the first country to pass the 202 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: Free of Freedom of Press Act. But it wasn't all 203 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: that was cracked up to be. Uh, they still censor things. 204 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: They basically put the onus on the publishers instead of 205 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: the government to censor things. So, you know, good for 206 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: you in a way, Sweden. But this is just part 207 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: of that long and winding road. But but one thing 208 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: that that act also did was, um, say, if you're 209 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: a citizen of Sweden, you have a right to access 210 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: government documents to see what your government's doing. So in 211 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: one way it was not at all helpful. In another way, 212 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: it was pretty sweeping, you know. And then Virginia um said, 213 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: all right, well, Sweden was first in the world, we 214 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: want to be first in the in the colonies. I 215 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: guess the States because they know I guess it would 216 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: have been the colony still because they came up with 217 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: um part of their charter, or they made amendment to 218 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: their charter that said, Um, we really like what Trenchard 219 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: and Gordon came up with, we like what Zinger stood for, 220 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: and um, we're gonna include the idea that quote, freedom 221 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: of the press is one of the greatest bullworks for 222 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: liberty and that can never be restrained but by despotic governments. 223 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: So they're saying, like, if you have freedom of the press, 224 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: freedom of spree, speech like that will actually defend liberty 225 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: by holding despotism at bay. Because if people know, and 226 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: this is the basis of all this, chuck, if people 227 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: know what's going on, they will hold people to account. 228 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: If people don't know what's going on, people who are 229 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: attracted to power tend to go um toward the dark side. Yeah, 230 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: I mean that's really it. It's it's again, knowledge is 231 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: power if you and well we'll get to all that, 232 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: because there are certain nations of the world that don't 233 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: do that, and we'd see it playing out all the time. Uh. 234 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: The U s A. You know, you think when we 235 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: got the First Amendment going on, that hey, it's all 236 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: it's all great now, But as you hinted at earlier, 237 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: it would be a hundred plus years until they were 238 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: truly sort of like protections for the press. Uh. Seven 239 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: years after the First Amendment was born, it was just 240 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: a little baby in first or second grade. Uh, Congress 241 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: pass the Sedition Act of s and uh, you know, 242 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: said we can deport you, we can find you, we 243 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: can imprison you if you publish false, scandalous or malicious writing. 244 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: And you know, scandalous and malicious are very broad terms 245 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: to use when you're saying, like you, if you print 246 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: that against the federal government, then that's you know, something 247 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: we can do bad things to you for. Uh. And 248 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: it just lasted a few years, that particular act, but 249 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: it would come up again later on in a different form, right. 250 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: And also just um a little tidbit on that that 251 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: act was passed by the Federalists who were in power, 252 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: they had the White House and Congress, um, and they 253 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: passed that act in part to um hold that power, 254 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: to maintain that power, to keep from being criticized in 255 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: the press. And apparently, um, the early Americans found out 256 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: about this what was going on, and they disliked that 257 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: law so much that they actually voted the Federalists side 258 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: of office. And that's how Jefferson became president. That's right, 259 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: that's a little yeah and backfired. That's what happens when 260 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: you try to put a strangle on the power. The 261 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: people say nay. People say nay, and I say, let's 262 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: take a break. Okay, let's get those dinner party invitations 263 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: going and get Zinger on the list, and we'll be 264 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: right back. All right, we need to talk a little 265 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: bit about the Supreme Court of the United States, because 266 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: here's where it all really begins. Yeah, they factor in 267 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: obviously pretty large here at um Well I mentioned this 268 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: Edition Act. There was another Sedition Act that came along 269 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighteen, which again criminalized a lot of political speech. 270 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: And this is pretty broad as well. It was a 271 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: crime to willfully utter, print, right or publish disloyal very vague, profane, 272 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: not as vague, uh scirrel us super vague or abusive language, 273 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: a little bit vague about the form of government of 274 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: United States, or to speak out against war. And they 275 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, they went after people. They prosecuted uh close 276 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: to two thousand people under the Sedition Act uh and 277 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: the Espionage Act, and the Supreme Court upheld some of these, 278 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: but it at least got them talking. Yeah. So that's 279 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: a really critical thing is the Supreme Court at the 280 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: time was like, we generally agree with that law. But 281 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: all of this, all these cases that were reaching the 282 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: Supreme Court at the time about you know, freedom of speech. Um. Yeah, 283 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: like you said, it got them talking. And in particular, 284 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Lewis Brandeis kind of 285 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: banded together and brought their their rather considerable um juristic 286 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: minds to bear on the idea of um, free speech 287 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: and freedom of the press and like what that meant 288 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: and what protections it should have, And they used their 289 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: tenure on the Supreme Court to basically establish precedent in 290 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: the United States that said, everything you understand about freedom 291 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: of speech and freedom of the press, uh, we're going 292 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: to basically enshrined together through some basically opinions, not even 293 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: necessarily like um to sending opinions. Sometimes they appended their 294 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: support for you know, um upholding somebody being um uh 295 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: convicted under the sedition actor espion object. But they would 296 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: say things like, you know, um, if you if you 297 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: put people out there and let them talk, you're going 298 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: to have like an exchange of ideas, and the best 299 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: ideas are going to bubble to the top. And so 300 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: this whole idea of freedom of speech that led up 301 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: to Oliver Wendell Holmes that it was a personal liberty 302 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: that you were guaranteed into democracy. They said, yeah, true. 303 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: In addition to that, it's actually a common good if 304 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: you have free speech, because us the best idea can 305 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: be compared and compete against rival ideas, and the one 306 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: that suits society best can win the day because it's 307 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: been debated and hashed out in the marketplace of ideas. 308 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: Right and Holmes champion the marketplace of ideas idea, But 309 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: that was originally uttered by another justice right, yeah, William O. 310 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: Douglas back in the fifties, so about forty years after that. 311 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: But a lot of people credit Oliver Wendell Holmes for 312 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: for coming up with that. Yeah, he just liked to 313 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: wear it on his on his robe, on the back 314 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: of his robe in Rhyinstone. Oh man, that'd be nice. Uh. 315 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: So ur comes another big milestone. Supreme Court heard New 316 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: York Times v. Sullivan and this was this was pretty 317 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: interesting and this was boy, this was a big one 318 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: because this is where we finally got the idea that 319 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: libel isn't just a word that means you said something mean. 320 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: Libel means that you you had actual malice behind it. 321 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: And that is still the standard by which we judge libel. Uh. 322 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: This was an ad in nineteen sixty uh in the 323 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: New York Times. It was run by the UH it 324 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: was or I guess paid for by civil rights advocates, 325 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: and it was criticizing officials in the South for violating 326 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: civil rights. But it had a few um factual inaccuracies 327 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: inaccuracies in there, one of which was how many times 328 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: uh Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Had been arrested. So 329 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: they didn't take kindly to that down there. Uh. There 330 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: was a police commissioner in Alabama that filed the defamation lawsuit. 331 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: Alabama Supreme Court agreed with him, But then the U. S. 332 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: Supreme Court went on to overturn that ruling with just 333 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: a milestone majority opinion, which was, you know, actual malice 334 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: has to be approven, and it's on you to prove 335 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: that they meant to have malice. And that is was 336 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: a huge, huge and continues to be a huge deal. Yeah, 337 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: because prior to that, it was, you know, up to 338 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: this this decision, if you said anything wrong and there 339 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: was any kind of factual er in that you were 340 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: at at fault, and that would have an enormous chilling 341 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: effect on the press. And and that's a huge deal. 342 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: That's like part and parcel with protecting press freedom is 343 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: to also guard against a chilling effect that can happen 344 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: where that that kind of comes about when things are unclear, 345 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: when you're not quite certain of where the line is 346 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: or anything like that, people start to kind of c 347 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: o a, you know, And so they prevented that by 348 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: saying no. Now it's on the person who has supposedly 349 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: been defamed to prove that that person willfully reported facts 350 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: that they knew were wrong. Then you've got slandered, then 351 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: you've got liabel. But up to that point, if you 352 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: can't prove that, then you're you're in the clear press. Yeah, 353 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: and here's the thing, like this was a big deal 354 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: because humans make mistakes. I think there's been none. I 355 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear. Over the past, oh, I don't know, uh, 356 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: five years or so, there's been this notion that the 357 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: press purposefully gets things wrong to to back up whatever 358 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: opinion they have on something. And by and large, journalists 359 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: in the United States do have integrity and and they 360 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: want true journalists, not you know, entertainment journalism, but true 361 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: journalists want to get things right because their reputation is 362 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: at stake, and the publications they work for their reputation 363 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: as at stake. And you were a journalist for a while. 364 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: I was a journalist for a while. You want to 365 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: get the stuff right. And if you don't, you can't 366 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: have a law hanging above you. What you do is 367 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: you make it right, and you print retractions and say, 368 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: I goofed up. But uh, it's just it's Yeah, I 369 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: can't stay on the soapbox because of like onion juice 370 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: will start squirting out of my pores. Yeah, I'm sure that. Wow, 371 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: that was really growsy. I was trying to think of 372 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: something disgusting that. Yeah, I think, well you nailed it 373 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: on the head, Charlis. That was really good work. Um yeah. 374 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: The problem with that though, the last part that you 375 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: hit upon is the retraction and saying you goofed up. 376 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: Those are a few and far between and when they 377 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: are done there. Yeah, so there's like not enough effort 378 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: to restore someone's good name if it's been besmirched, to 379 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 1: to get all nineteenth century on on you, um, you know, 380 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: through retractions, through things like that, and like making an 381 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: effort to say, hey, we actually really got this wrong. Um. 382 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: You know. I think it's gotten better at the on 383 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: the with the Internet because it's printed below the article 384 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: that got it wrong. Initially they'll say that this was incorrect, 385 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: so it's gotten way better. But back in the days 386 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: of print only um or even network TV, like, those 387 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: retractions were just so far separated from the actual error 388 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: that they might as well just not connected them at all. 389 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: Uh So, what let's talk a little bit about the 390 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: Pentagon papers because that was another I feel like I 391 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: had an extra P in there. Didn't say Pentapon today No, okay, 392 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: it's I can't get pessling in juice? Why did that 393 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: come out of my mouth. That was so weird. It 394 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: came out of your mouth, your poor, your ears, my god, 395 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: your h oh boy. Uh yeah, let's talk about the 396 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: Pentagon papers in seventy one. What was that all about? Well? So, uh, 397 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: what was his name? The Ford exact? Who was will 398 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,479 Speaker 1: you McNamara. He was the fog of War guy. Right. 399 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: He ordered um like basically a forty seven volume exhaustive 400 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: investigation in history of the United States involvement in Vietnam 401 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: from World War Two onward. I think this was the 402 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: sixties up to the late sixties, early seventies. And there 403 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: was this researcher who worked on it for the Pentagon. 404 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: His name is Daniel Ellsberg. He was super into the 405 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: idea that the United States was fighting the good fight 406 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. But the more he helped compile this and 407 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: the more like of the horrors and the atrocities that 408 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: he saw, uh, he became really um he became a 409 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: conscientious objector in a way. He turned into a whistleblower 410 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: and handed over this super secret classified volume document to 411 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: the New York Times. We started publishing articles on it, 412 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: that's right, And the US Department of Justice originally got 413 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: a temporary restraining order saying you can't do this. Uh, 414 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: you know it boils down to national security basically. And 415 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: then we get the case the New York Times Company, Uh, 416 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: the United States quite a foe. And the Supreme Court said, 417 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: in a six three ruling, you know, you, United States, 418 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: you didn't prove that these articles harmed national security. And 419 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: these are in fact protected under the First Amendment. And 420 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: not only that, just Justice Potter Stewart wrote these very 421 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: wise words, the only effective restraint upon executive policy and 422 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: power in the areas of national defense and international affairs 423 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: may lie in again, and an enlightened citizenry and an informed, 424 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: in critical public opinion, which alone can here protect the 425 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: values of democratic government. Right. And so you can see 426 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: from Justice Potter Stewart's um like little note basically is 427 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: opinion when the government, when the government brings cases like these, 428 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: it really opens itself up for the Supreme Court to 429 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: tee off on free speech and um and freedom of 430 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: the press. And there's a good example, um of the 431 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: government not doing that, to not set of self up 432 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: so that it can it can keep that lyne blurry, 433 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: so that it can create a chilling effect with journalists. 434 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: And that's with the fact that they've never prosecuted a 435 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: journalist for publishing leaked information. By not doing that, they've 436 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: never set themselves up for the Supreme Court to say, irrefutably, yes, 437 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: journalists can do this. Journalists don't worry about that anymore. 438 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: You can't be prosecuted for that. The fact that no 439 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: one ever has means that there's still a possibility that 440 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: with the right case, the government could get you. You 441 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: could go to prison, even though you know, generally the 442 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: way that things go is you're not even prosecuted. It's 443 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: not viewed as illegal, but there's no precedent. So by 444 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: not setting a precedent either way, the government has that 445 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: threat of of prosecuting you hanging over journalists heads, and 446 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: it makes some journalists think twice before accepting, you know, 447 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: leaked in classified materials. Um, I guess you know, we 448 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of teased earlier that some nations are uh I 449 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,479 Speaker 1: guess you could say a bit more threatening than others 450 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: or controlling. UM. China obviously is a country that um, 451 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: you know, in their constitution they technically include the right 452 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: to freedom of the press, but it is a country 453 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: that is so highly regulated under the thumb of their 454 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: Communist Party that they just squash reports, they stop things 455 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: from running. Uh, they everything to them. It seems like 456 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: falls under the banner that it would harm the country. 457 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: And you know the Great Firewall. While we've talked about before. 458 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: I don't even think our podcast is available there if 459 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, right, I don't know when it wasn't, 460 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know, Uh probably won't be after today. 461 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: And this, you know, some have argued that there is 462 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: now a nation of young people, not all of them, 463 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: but a lot of them that have bought into this, 464 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: and that this has had the exact effect that China 465 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: wants to have, and that they believe the Communist Party's 466 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: propaganda machine, and they'll report their professors, they will report 467 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: on their their friends or family if they deviate from 468 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: that party line. And uh, it's it's scary, man. Yeah, 469 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: And there's um um. Olivia helps us with this, and 470 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: she cited a researcher from China, ya Qui Wang, who 471 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: um just you know, a good decade before today, was 472 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, studying in China and was free on the 473 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: internet and social media to criticize the government, to to 474 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: trade ideas, that kind of thing, and because of activities 475 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: like hers, the Communist Party said no, we cannot allow that, 476 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: And in just a decade they've managed to completely transform 477 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: the minds of the younger generation in China from what 478 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: what from what our media tells us. Yeah, and then 479 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: you know, obviously the same thing has gone on and 480 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 1: is currently going on in Russia. Uh, notably with the 481 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine. If you ask, you know, the Russian 482 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: state run medias is basically saying this is just a 483 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: limited military operation. We're trying to get the Nazis out 484 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: of Ukraine. And a lot of people buy that there. 485 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: You know, we're a handful of independent news sources. But 486 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, because of uh murder and which which happens. 487 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: I think the UN says between two thousand and six 488 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: and more than twelve d journalists all over the world 489 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: have been killed and murdered for their reporting. Uh. Those 490 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: crimes went unpunished. So with that threat hanging over Russia, 491 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: the same effect has happened over there. There are a 492 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: lot of young people in Russia that that believe that 493 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: what's going on Ukraine is no big deal and fully justified. Well, 494 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: it's that's what happens when you have a government that 495 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: has a strangle hold on media and can just control 496 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: what you see or hear. There's just no other ideas 497 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: that can make their way in. It's it's really staggering. 498 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: It also makes you wonder like, gosh, you know what 499 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: all don't we know? Yeah? For sure? Uh? And you 500 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: know this is not me just going off on a 501 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: on an opinion I have. But in twenty nine we 502 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: had a president of these United States that publicly announced 503 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: and floated the idea of a state run media here 504 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: m hm hm. So the thing is, chuck, Um. If 505 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: you go if you look at the Chinese Constitution, you 506 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: will see that there is a right to um a 507 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: free press that it's in there. But they use the 508 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: Great Firewall of China called the Golden Shield there. Um. 509 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: The they use propaganda, UM, they use lawsuits things like 510 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: that I think you said, um to basically reverse that, 511 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: not on paper, just in practice. Right in the United States, 512 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: we have a very robust guarantee that's been supported time 513 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: and time and time and time again by the Supreme 514 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: Court by laws that protect people um in their right 515 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: to speak um. And we're still hashing it out. But generally, 516 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: we have a very free press in the United States. 517 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: The thing is, that's not to say that we have 518 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: a truly opaque and impartial press in the United States. 519 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: The press can still be limited in a number of 520 00:30:54,680 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: different ways, even without direct government intervention in their activities 521 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: and what they report on. All right, I think it's 522 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: a great cliffhanger. People are probably wondering what in the 523 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: heck is going on here, and we'll let you know 524 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: right after this. Okay, So um, that was a pretty 525 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: big cliffhanger. The horse went over the cliff with us 526 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: on it. How will we land, Chuck, how will we 527 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: land hopefully safely? All right? Well, how about this? Parachutes 528 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: for both? So really? Well what about the horse? Yeah, 529 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: for both the horse and nuts. Oh, we're sharing a parachute. No, 530 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: you and I are run a horse, right, we have 531 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: two parachutes the horse. The horse has one. Okay, so 532 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: parachutes for all all three of us are landing safely. Originally, 533 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: in my mind's eye, we were each on our own horse. 534 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: But then I thought it'd be fun to share horse. Yeah. Yeah, 535 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: it's like an oversized horse and I get to ride 536 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: them back. That means I want to hug you around 537 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: the waist like, that's totally fine. Um. The parachute, though, 538 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: for the horse, has to be much larger than easily 539 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: either of our parachutes. Is it larger size? It's larger 540 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: in it, and it obviously is attached between us because 541 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: we don't want to tip off, even though we have 542 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: our own parachute. We want to go down as a 543 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: nice little threesome. So the horses parachutes what connected around 544 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: like maybe like a girdle or something like that. And 545 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: then are our parachutes are connected to the horse's parachute? No, no, no, 546 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: I think how it works is I've seen this before. 547 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: The horse's parachute is integrated into the saddle. Okay, uh, 548 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: sort of between you and I. It's a two person saddle. 549 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: And then you and I have just regular parachutes, but 550 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: we are then also strapped to the horse and saddle, 551 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: so we're being supported by the horses parachute in addition 552 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: to our own parachutes. Yeah, we're kind of like the 553 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: backup okay, gotcha. Okay, So now that we've landed safely 554 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: and the horses trotting us along again. Um, A really 555 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: good example of indirect government intervention um and self censorship 556 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: of the press comes at times when there's like a 557 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: war or something, and a good example of that came 558 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:31,479 Speaker 1: after nine eleven, where basically the entire United States media said, 559 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: what just tell us what to do? What do you 560 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: want from us government? We're going to completely just listen 561 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: because we're feeling particularly patriotic right now. Yeah, it's sort 562 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: of easy to forget that. But there was a from 563 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: University of Pittsburgh. There was a scholar there named Gordon 564 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: Or Mitchell who described that reporting as the a spiral 565 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: of self censorship. And I guess, you know, I just 566 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: didn't remember it that way. But when you look back 567 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: at things like Dan rather being on David Letterman, Dan 568 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: Rather uh and saying, George Bush is the president. Wherever 569 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: he wants me to line up, just tell me where 570 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: and he'll make the call. Will do whatever is our 571 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: patriotic duty, It's it's easy to kind of forget that 572 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: was a sentiment at the time, and everybody was was 573 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: lining up to say, hey, you got it? What what 574 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: do he want us to say? Yeah? I remember, um, 575 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: there was like a benefit concert with in a few 576 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: days of nine eleven for like the first responders, and 577 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: Richard Gear came out on stage and he he asked 578 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: everyone to please he knows that we're hurting, and he 579 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: knows that we're angry, but he's asking us to channel 580 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: all of this into into love, into a peace rather 581 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: than hatred. And he got booed off the stage by 582 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: everybody in New York at the time. And that was 583 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: totally sentiment, like people like Richard Gear didn't say things 584 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: like that, or nobody else after Richard Gear did, except 585 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: for apparently Bill Maher um who said something about He 586 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: said that, uh, um, you call it, say, well, say 587 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: what you will about it, but if you're on the 588 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: plane still when it hits the building, that's not cowardly. 589 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: And he had compared, you know, shooting cruise missiles into 590 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: another country as cowardly. And that was basically it for 591 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: Bill Maher's politically incorrect show after that. And it wasn't 592 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: like the government was saying Bill Maher, you're off the air, um, 593 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: Richer Gear, go make some terrible, a terrible string of 594 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: movies for a while as your punishment, Like that's not 595 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: what happened. Instead, it was like people saw that and 596 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: they were kind of repelled by it. It was so 597 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: far against like the group think at the time, so 598 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: outside of the general mood of like vengeance and hurt 599 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: that America was going through in the immediate wake of 600 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: nine eleven. That um that people just kind of were 601 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: compelled to fall in line by themselves. Like that's just 602 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: how how you were at the time. Yeah, I mean, 603 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: and you know, of course, when companies pull ad dollar 604 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: something like politically incorrect and go away very fast or 605 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: or at least give a TV network another reason to say, oh, 606 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: we canceled them because you know, we couldn't get any 607 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: ads on it right, right, So that was that's one example. 608 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: But then also, um, there's a really good um chiller, 609 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: I guess something that has a chilling effect because remember 610 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: it's really important aspect in a country that has a 611 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: nominally free press, but the press is still controlled and 612 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: you hit upon it. Advertisers and ad dollars, they really 613 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: have a genuine impact on what reporters and journalists feel 614 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: free to say, either directly like they're muzzled by like 615 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: their editors or their publishers, or they just know if 616 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: I report this fact about you know, my parent company, 617 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: it's gonna look bad. For the parent company. I'm just 618 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 1: gonna leave this fact out in the article. That's self censoring, 619 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: and that's something that the American press does. Yeah, there 620 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: was a survey in two thousand and Olivia does point 621 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: out it's an old survey, but it's probably um no 622 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: different and maybe even worse twenty years on. But uh, 623 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: thirty one of journalists avoided stories that could hurt their 624 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: news organization or its parent company and said the same 625 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: if it could hurt the advertisers. So you know, it's 626 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: just this notion that you know, I get a paycheck 627 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 1: from someone, and I know that ultimately that paycheck comes 628 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: from either selling newspapers or selling ads in those newspapers. Uh. 629 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: And of course that was a long time ago when 630 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: the the newspaper was still like in print, right, like 631 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: a big deal. But uh, this this all comes down 632 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: to the fact that these are for profit businesses, and 633 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,720 Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to lose your objectivity when you're keeping 634 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: that in mind. Yeah, and also it's all bears pointing 635 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: out that a very small group of people, um either 636 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: individual wealthy billionaires in the case of Jeff Bezos with 637 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, or you know, giant conglomerate companies like 638 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: GE owning I think NBC maybe, UM, and all of 639 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: them have like a lot of interest in common, which 640 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: is protecting the bottom line. So it's really easy to 641 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: get everybody to kind of report generally the same thing 642 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: and not report on generally the same thing. UM. And 643 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: there's a we talked about it before, but that Robert 644 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: Smigel um Musty TV funhouse conspiracy theory rock does a 645 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: really great job of explaining how the whole thing works. 646 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: And it's a good fifteen years old by now, but 647 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: it's just as as correct as ever. A genius, he 648 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: really was a genius. And there's one other thing I 649 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: would advise people to do at this point when you're 650 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, just how free the American press 651 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: is and how constrained it is by dollars, Cora is 652 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: a really good place to go, like re um, you know, 653 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: intelligent people's opinions on things presented as opinions, not as 654 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: fact or anything. Yeah. Yes, And if you look up 655 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: does America have a free press? I found the answers 656 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 1: on that UM question really UM enlightening. I mean, nothing new, 657 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: I didn't hear anything new, but it was UM just 658 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,919 Speaker 1: just to see over and over again, like, yes, there's 659 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: a free press, not really though, because it's all constrained 660 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: by dollars and it's all owned by corporations. Uh. It 661 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: really kind of makes you understand where you're where our 662 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 1: places in the world and why we're number forty four 663 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: in in the in the way of free press around 664 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, and you know, we have to talk 665 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 1: about social media too, because that is, in the scope 666 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: of the history of the press, a very new kind 667 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: of media and it is, uh, it is not figured 668 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: out yet. I guess it's the kindest way to say it, 669 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: because what you have with social media, I mean, it 670 00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,879 Speaker 1: really giveth in it take it the way. On one hand, 671 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: you have more access than ever for someone to be 672 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: able to truly get out um reporting or something like 673 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: that that's factual and would be maybe squashed by a 674 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 1: parent company or by a traditional media company. But you've 675 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: also got a situation where you know, you can kind 676 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: of say whatever you want under the guise of like 677 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: this is just my opinion. And people in today's America, 678 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,359 Speaker 1: a lot of people take things that are completely made 679 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: up and completely false as true and factual. And it's scary. Yeah, 680 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: it's super scary. It's a really uncomfortable time to be 681 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: living because we're like, when, when are we going to 682 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: figure this out? How are we going to figure this out? 683 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,839 Speaker 1: Are we ever going to figure this out? Or things 684 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: going to Is it going to be one of those 685 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,240 Speaker 1: things where things are going to get a lot worse 686 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: before they get better. Who knows. We just don't know 687 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: because we're living in the midst of it right now. Yeah, 688 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: And you know, as Olivia points out, it's a situation 689 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: where they are like traditional media companies in some ways 690 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: because they can juice an algorithm to get something more 691 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: seen than something else. But then it's not like they 692 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: don't like a company like Facebook doesn't have or any 693 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: social media company doesn't have the same um or at 694 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: least legally right now, they don't have the same ethical 695 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: standards of a traditional media company right right. So it's 696 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: like this new animal that kind of looks a lot 697 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: like the old animal, but is like, no, no, no, 698 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: you can't treat me like the old animal. I'm something different. 699 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: Um And and that's kind of what we're figuring out 700 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 1: is it's, like you said, they have different ethical standards, 701 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: and that's really found in the case of Gawker UM, 702 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: which was a gossipy news site UM that saw fit 703 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: to publish Whole Cogan's sex tape that got leaked to 704 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: them UM where Whole Cogan. Yes, So everything about this 705 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,919 Speaker 1: case is gross. Whole Cogan was cheating on his wife 706 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: with his best friend's wife, made a sex tape of it, 707 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: Gawker saw fit to publish it like that's just news 708 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 1: that people need to know about. And UM got sued 709 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: by Hulk Hogan, sued out of existence by Hulk Cogan. 710 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: And that's another aspect of this case that was gross. 711 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: Peter Thiel, a billionaire who was one of the founders 712 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: of PayPal, secretly financed the case because he hated Gawker 713 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: because Gawker had outed him as gay back in two 714 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: thousand seven. So he financed Whole Cogan's case and basically 715 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: drove Gawker into bankruptcy. And that's not supposed to be okay, Like, 716 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: even if you hate somebody's free speech, a billionaire shouldn't 717 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: be able to decide who says what or who doesn't 718 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: say what. So that's another gross part Whole Cogan one, 719 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: because he managed to position himself as like an everyday 720 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,240 Speaker 1: guy who was up against this elite, snobby New York media. Um, 721 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,479 Speaker 1: that's pretty gross too. And then ultimately the worst part 722 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: of it is that this this dumb move by Gawker 723 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,760 Speaker 1: to publish Whole Cogan's sex tape opened up a really 724 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: terrible can of worms that just did not need to 725 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: be opened. Um, which which basically says, hey, you remember 726 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: that idea that truth can never be considered liabel. That 727 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,280 Speaker 1: has been a foundation of American law of free speech 728 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: and free press. Let's turn that on its head. Let's 729 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,839 Speaker 1: test that by publishing this whole Cogan sex tape. And 730 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 1: so they lost their lawsuit, like they even though it 731 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: was true this whole Cogan didn't dispute that that was 732 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: him and that was his sex tape. Uh, And Gawker 733 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: published it and that was it. He's still won a 734 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: hundred and forty million dollar lawsuit against him, and Gawker 735 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: went out of business. And whatever you think of Gawker, 736 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: they were still technically media. They were still technically the press. 737 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 1: And so now you've got billionaires who can who can 738 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: run press out of existence if they don't like what 739 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: they have to say. That's where we're still we are 740 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: right now, we're still figuring this out, and it's a 741 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 1: it's a scary time, yeah, because you know, most companies 742 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: of that size don't have the money, and that's what 743 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: happened to Gawker. They don't have the money to hang 744 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: in there unless another billionaires and financing theirs, and then 745 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 1: we're in real trouble when it's just billionaires secretly, you know, 746 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: suing one another behind, you know, the guys of another case, right, 747 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,399 Speaker 1: that would not be fun. It would not be fun. So, 748 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: like we said, the United States press is number forty 749 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: four out of a hundred and eighty. It's a that's 750 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,280 Speaker 1: a solid b, I would say, But you would expect, 751 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: really the first country to truly enshrine free speech into 752 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: its um constitutional amendments to have to be a lot 753 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: higher than forty four. But it's not. So. If you 754 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: want to know more about that, you can go check 755 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: out Reporters Without Borders World Press Freedom Index. But basically, 756 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: the upshot of it is that there is a tremendous 757 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: amount of mistrust in journalists in the United States and 758 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: in media in general, and a lot of false information 759 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: that's easily passed around, and that's kind of setting the 760 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:14,240 Speaker 1: stage for a really um a disrupted press or purpose 761 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 1: of the press, which is again to tell people like 762 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: you and me what the people running the show are 763 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 1: doing so we can decide whether we want them to 764 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: continue running the show or not. That's right, and we 765 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: should mention that if you're wondering what the bottom of 766 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: that list looks like. The bottom five there are a 767 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: couple of African nations Djibouti and Eritrea, and then of 768 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:47,280 Speaker 1: course China, Turkmenistan, and then obviously North Korea. Yes, obviously obvious. Sorry, sorry, 769 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: Kim Jong un. Well, now you're gonna get us off 770 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: the air there, Yeah, there's no way we're on the 771 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 1: air there. We're too free. Baby. Uh Well, since Chuck 772 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: said that's right, of course, everybody. That means it's time 773 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:12,839 Speaker 1: for listener mail. I'm gonna call this rhinoplasty follow up 774 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: this from well, I'll save that part, hey, guys, keep 775 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,800 Speaker 1: doing the great work. Really enjoy the lighthearted approach presenting 776 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: information from the interesting minutia about important topics to the 777 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: deeply important, even politically charged topics like today, as a 778 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:33,879 Speaker 1: person who has had to have three separate rhino plastic surgeries, uh, 779 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: and he says parenthetically, I've got some ridiculously troublesome sinuses, 780 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: septum and other miscellaneous issues. I had one other point 781 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: to add, something I had never heard of was the urbinates. Uh. 782 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: Mine were apparently huge. Uh. These are little fingerlike folds 783 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: of skin that run along the interior of your nostrils. 784 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: They swell in the swell alternately and are the reason 785 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: when you have a bad cold one side is totally plugged, 786 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: but you can breathe to the other one. Anyway. Part 787 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: of my surgeries was trimming those down because they were 788 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,680 Speaker 1: causing me breathing problems. The med student it was helping 789 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: me mentioned after the surgery and horror that he had 790 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: new idea so much stuff could come out of a 791 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: person's head. It's always fun when you hear something like 792 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,320 Speaker 1: that in post, stuff like I've never seen a blank 793 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: that big, sir, You got a picture right? That is 794 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: from John B. Parks, husband, father, nerd fighter, Hufflepuff, Let's 795 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: Go Royals, Chiefs, s K C and COI's and then 796 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 1: that he has a Gandhi quote. This is all in 797 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: his email signature. So I'd always like to read that stuff. Uh, 798 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: Liz live as if you were to die tomorrow, learn 799 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,600 Speaker 1: as if you were to live forever Mahatma Gandhi. Very nice. 800 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,919 Speaker 1: And then below that it says that he might get 801 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 1: revenue from any links you click that take you to Amazon. 802 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: I never had an email signature that said things like 803 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 1: quotes and stuff. I kind of like that, Yeah, okay, well, Chuck, 804 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: today is your day to start, all right? That was John? 805 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,920 Speaker 1: That was John. Thanks a lot, John. I appreciate that 806 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: I may actually be getting that done too. They mentioned 807 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,360 Speaker 1: that for me, and I was like, I don't know, 808 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: this sounds like an up cell, so maybe not. John 809 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: might have convinced me. If you want to get in 810 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,759 Speaker 1: touch with this like John did, we'd love to hear 811 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: from you. You can send us an email and send 812 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: it to specifically Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. 813 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. 814 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the i heart 815 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 816 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: favorite shows.