1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: today I wanted to start off by talking about something 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: that may have come up in the past on the 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: show before. I don't quite remember, but I don't think 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: we've ever gone into great detail on it. So there 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: is this popular chemistry prank that that goes something like this. 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: You you approach somebody with a petition or a public 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: service announcement. Uh. And if I could do the Donald 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: pleasants like Spirit of Dark and Lonely Water Voice, I 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: would do this. But just imagine it. Can you imagine 13 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: I'm Donald Pleasant saying this to you? What if I 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: told you there was a household chemical present in more 15 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: than of homes in America which is used as an 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: an ingredient in everything from packaged foods to cleaning products 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: to children's medicine. And yet this chemical has been proven 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: to cause severe burns to the skin and mouth, can 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: be lethal if it's inhaled, and is the primary constituent 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: in acid rain. According to historical sources, this was the 21 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: main ingredient in the poison that Socrates drank to commit 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: suicide after his trial and Athens. It's so corrosive that 23 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: it can eat holes in solid iron, and yet we 24 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: expose our bodies to this chemical every time we have 25 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: a cup of tea or take a shower. Studies have 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: found that trace amounts of this compound linger in our 27 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: decomposing bodies, even for months after we die. It is 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 1: so addictive that the average human cannot at this point 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: survive more than a few days without receiving a dose. 30 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: This chemical is called dihydrogen monoxide, and it has already 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: been found in nearly every natural environment on Earth, and 32 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: if we don't ban it soon, there will not be 33 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: a single patch of the planet left uncontaminated. Now, there 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: are million versions of this, but a lot of them 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: will ask people to kind of sign on and be like, oh, yeah, 36 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, we've got to get this thing out of 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: our out of our homes and all that. Yeah, because 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: then it's clearly we're talking about something that's a threat 39 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: to the children, uh, to America, to life as we 40 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: know it. And it's it's funny because when I think 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: about this prank, so obviously the joke is that what 42 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: it's talking about is water. And so it's a joke 43 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: that works on several levels. For one, it's an example 44 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: of how even technically true statements can be extremely misleading 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: without being put in the proper context. Uh. And I 46 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: think it's also just used to sometimes suggest that people 47 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: should get like better education and chemistry in the natural sciences, 48 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: which sure, you know, fair enough, I also wish I 49 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: was better educated in chemistry. But I think it's on 50 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: the other side it it does take advantage of something 51 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: that is a totally justified anxiety that people have about 52 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: chemistry in the natural world and especially the modern world, 53 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: because when we make decisions about deadly risks about physical 54 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: cause and effect, you know, our intuitions and our knowledge 55 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: about how things work are are strongly biased towards perceiving 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: physical threats within what you might call like the Newtonian 57 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: physical domain, like threats from big moving objects somewhere between 58 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: the size of a pebble and a landslide. But especially 59 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: since the Industrial Revolution, the world is also full of 60 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: chemical threats that are really somewhat invisible in this respect, 61 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: like they don't really show up on the Newtonian physical domain. 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: And so we've got some natural defenses against chemical threats 63 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: like this. We've got our senses of taste and smell, 64 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: and we have some aversion reactions in like our digestive 65 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: system or respiration system. Like sometimes you detect a noxious 66 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: chemical and you bar where you start coughing or something. 67 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: Our our bodies can can help detect and reject things. 68 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,839 Speaker 1: But we all know by this point that there are 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: in fact extremely dangerous chemicals that are essentially undetectable to 70 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: our senses, either because they have no strong smell or taste, 71 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: or the relevant doses are so tiny that we wouldn't 72 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: notice them before it's too late, or because maybe they 73 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: don't have an effect until they've had until you've had 74 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: extreme repeated exposure or consumed the lots of chemicals we're 75 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about one of the latter today, and 76 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: so this is the kind of compound that we're going 77 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: to be getting into. A chemical that has proven fascinating 78 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: and very useful, but also strangely dangerous depending on the context. 79 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: A sort of Dopple gang or of water. The wetness 80 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: of the shadow realm. Today, I wanted to talk about 81 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: heavy water, and it is heavy, literally heavy but I 82 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: want to want to say this is not to be 83 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: confused with hardwater. Uh So, if you're out there listening, 84 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about heavy water, not hardwater. Hard water is 85 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: just water with high mineral content. Oh is that what 86 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: it is? I think I literally didn't know that. Yeah, 87 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: this is the one that, like, you know, they can 88 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: can mess with how your soap SuDS up, that sort 89 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: of thing. Oh okay. Uh though some people like it 90 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: because it makes their hair look good, right or at 91 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: least yeah, I don't know. It's one of those things. 92 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of experience with it or 93 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: maybe really even knowledge of of hard water. So when 94 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: you brought up this topic, I initially thought you were 95 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: talking about doing, uh an episode or episodes about hard water. 96 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: But it's not hard water. Again heavy water. The washers 97 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: in your shower will really rust after this episode. Alright, 98 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: So for the rest of the episode, we're going to 99 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: discuss a few things that that we found interesting about 100 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: heavy water, its role in the natural world and history, 101 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: and maybe the question of whether you should drink it. 102 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: Um So at the molecular level, as we all know, 103 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: regular water is made of two hydrogen atoms and one 104 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: oxygen atom. It's H two O, and this trifled structure 105 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: makes for a really amazing and powerful polar molecule that 106 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: acts as kind of master solvent that makes life itself possible. 107 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: Every cell in your body depends on the particular kular 108 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: chemical properties of this molecule. Without H two O, nothing 109 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: in the organic world works. Now. Heavy water is an 110 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: alternative form of the same molecule which relies on a 111 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: different isotope of the hydrogen atom, known as deuterium. A 112 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: normal hydrogen atom also known as protium, just to distinguish 113 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: it from deuterium, is composed of two sub atomic particles. 114 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: So it's got a nucleus that is just one single 115 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: proton and nothing else that has a positive charge, and 116 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: then orbiting that it's got one single electron which has 117 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: a negative charge. Deuterium adds a third element to the mix. 118 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: It adds a single neutron to the nucleus of the 119 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: hydrogen atom. Uh. Now, again, this makes it an isotope 120 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: of hydrogen, and isotope is a is a version of 121 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: an atom that has a different than usual number of 122 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: neutrons in the nucleus, and a new a neutron doesn't 123 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: have a charge, but it does have mass, so an 124 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: atom of deterium is almost twice as heavy as an 125 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: a time of ordinary hydrogen. Deuterium is a stable isotope, 126 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: and it is found in nature. It's not something that's 127 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: just a product of the Industrial Revolution or of nuclear 128 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: reactors or something like that. It's found all throughout water 129 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: in the Solar System, it's found all throughout Earth's oceans. 130 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: Roughly one out of every sixty hydrogen atoms in the 131 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: ocean is actually deuterium. So if deuterium occurs in nature, 132 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: you might wonder, well, where does it come from? With 133 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: most other elements, you can trace their origin to some 134 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: form of nucleosynthesis within stars or during high energy events 135 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: like supernova. However, almost all of the deuterium found in 136 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: nature is a leftover product of the Big Bang. These 137 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: atomic nuclei are not generated by stars, or when they are, 138 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: they're usually destroyed soon after they're created. They've been the 139 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: way they are for thirteen point eight billion years, and 140 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: on Earth, one major place to find hydrogen is bound 141 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: up in water molecules. So in most ways, deuterium behaves 142 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: chemically the same as ordinary hydrogen, so deterium gets locked 143 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: up into water molecules, uh, and it just floats around 144 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: there in the ocean. The technical name for a water 145 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: molecule with deuterium in place of hydrogen is deuterium oxide 146 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: or D two oh. So if you ever seen D 147 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: two oh written out, that means heavy water water molecule 148 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: with deuterium instead of regular hydrogen. It's also sometimes called 149 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: deuterated water, but more commonly it's just known as heavy water. Now, 150 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: as I've said, in many ways, deuterium behaves just like 151 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: protium hydrogen, and so in many ways heavy water blends 152 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: in with and behaves like regular water, but not in 153 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: every way. And a lot of what we're gonna be 154 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: doing in this episode is exploring some of the fascinating 155 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: and historically relevant and weird differences between regular water and 156 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: heavy water. That's right. So one good place to start 157 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: here and that the history of the discovery of heavy 158 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: water is to go back to nineteen That's when chemist 159 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: Author Lamb and Richard Lean of New York University tried 160 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: to define the density of pure water and they kept 161 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: getting varying results, which ultimately paved the road for the 162 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: discovery of isotopes. That's variant those are variants of particular 163 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: chemical elements due to differences in neutrons. And then also 164 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: the discovery of heavy water itself. And this is key 165 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: because because again heavy water isn't something that's you know, 166 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: entirely man made or anything like that. It's in water. 167 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: It just constitutes one part in four thousand, five hundred. Yes, 168 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: that that's correct. Now about that number. I was wondering 169 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: about the ratios here because I saw I've seen that 170 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: that ratio one ind and I've also seen the ratio 171 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: of one out of every sixty four hundred UM. Like. 172 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: For example, of one important publication on the evidence for 173 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: the existence of heavy hydrogen back in one which was 174 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: published in the journal Physical Review, was a letter by 175 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: the American chemist Harold C. Yuri which pegged deuterium as 176 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: one out of every hydrogen atoms. But I've also seen 177 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: it published elsewhere that it's it's now thought that at 178 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: least one out of every sixty four D or I 179 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: think more more like sixty twenty or sixty four fifty 180 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: water molecules in Earth's ocean are heavy water UM. So 181 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if those numbers represents some kind of 182 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: conflict or if one represents a genuine difference in what 183 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: you'd find in the water molecules in the ocean versus 184 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: what you'd find just in hydrogen. More broadly, I'm not 185 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: quite sure about that, but the point either way is 186 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: that UH is that deuterium is found in nature but 187 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: only in a in a very small proportion of hydrogen. 188 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: And thus heavy water is found in nature but only 189 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: in a very small proportion. It's one out of thousands 190 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: of molecules. Yeah. So it's kind of like if we 191 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: had like a cash only society and you had some 192 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: heavy nickels, they're right where the nickel itself like it's 193 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: it's not it's not worth more, it's not. It's still 194 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: just worth five cents, and factors into the figuring that way. 195 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: But you can imagine scenarios where extra heavy nickels in enough. 196 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: Uh you know, if there are enough of them within 197 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: a larger amount of nickels, that could have an impact 198 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: on things, etcetera. Or if you get into a situation 199 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: sort of this will discuss where people are like, oh man, 200 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: these heavy nickels are great, I've got to get more 201 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: of them. Can I like syth them out of the 202 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: existing Uh, cash population of the existing world nickels. Can 203 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: I make normal nickels into heavy nickels, etcetera. That's very good, Yeah, 204 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: and you could. I can imagine you'd run into unforeseen 205 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: problems if you suddenly decided you wanted to base your 206 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: entire economy on heavy nickels, or I don't know, maybe 207 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: a third of your economy. Uh, that'll tie into something 208 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: we get into in a minute. So I mentioned him 209 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: just a minute ago, that the American chemist Harold c Uri. 210 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: I hope I'm saying his name right, you are, e 211 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: y Uh. He's a very important figure in the discovery 212 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: of deuterium. He usually gets credit along with his collaborators 213 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: for proving the existence of deuterium through spectral copic experiments 214 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty one, and he received the Nobel Prize 215 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: for his discovery in nineteen thirty four. But I thought 216 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: it would be useful to just look at a couple 217 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: of the physical properties of heavy water. So one of 218 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: the key differences between heavy water and ordinary water is 219 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: that heavy water is literally heavier because of the extra 220 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 1: neutrons in the deuterium. You remember, a deuterium atom is 221 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: almost twice as heavy as a regular hydrogen atom. Because 222 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: of that D two oh is about ten percent heavier 223 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: than an equal quantity of regular water. And you might wonder, 224 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: a wait a minute, why only ten percent heavier rather 225 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: than double. The way We'll remember, oxygen with eight protons 226 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: and eight neutrons makes up the bulk of the mass 227 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: of a normal water molecule. It's got oxygen and then 228 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: the lighter hydrogen atom. So you're only increasing the weight 229 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: of UH two of the three atoms and the two 230 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: smaller ones in the water molecule. So so it's ten 231 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: percent heavier. And this results in some very interesting party 232 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: trick potential. For example, regular ice always floats in water, 233 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: but with deuterium, if you make a heavy water ice cube, 234 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: it will sink in water because it's got a greater 235 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: density than the surrounding water. Also, heavy water is more 236 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: viscous than regular water. It's a little bit uh it's 237 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: gonna be a little bit more like a like a jelly, 238 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: and maybe not to a you know, physically perceptible extent 239 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: if you were to hold it in your hands, but 240 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: it is more viscous, which would probably have measurable effects 241 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: if say the oceans were entirely made of deuterium. Yes, 242 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: and this is this is a great question that that 243 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: had been asked on the Internet already. I think it 244 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: originally showed up in as a Cora question, Oh what 245 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: would the ocean be like if it was made out 246 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: of heavy water? And uh and is is sometimes the 247 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: case on Cora. You had a really insightful answer pop up, 248 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: this one from Josh Velson, chemical engineering consultant for bio 249 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: and petro chemicals, and it it was such a neat 250 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: answer that it was actually featured on Slate as well. Uh, 251 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: So I recommend checking that out. But but I want 252 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: to touch on some of the main point that Nelson makes, 253 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: and I want to stress this would be if there 254 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: is a magical instant change, you know, like snap your fingers. Now, 255 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: our oceans are just all heavy water. So it's not 256 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: a realistic scenario, but it's one of those thought experiment 257 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: scenarios that I think helps to underline what we're talking 258 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: about here with heavy water and how it affects It 259 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: would affect you know, various systems. So, first of all, 260 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: since any given portion of the water out there in 261 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: the oceans would be ten point six percent heavier, Velson 262 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: says that anything swimming outside of its pressure zone would 263 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: basically be instantly crushed. Now we've discussed on the show before. However, 264 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: you take certain deep sea organisms and you bring them 265 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: up into shallower waters, you have some exploding effects that 266 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: take place. And likewise, if you take something from shallower 267 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: waters and plunge it down into the depths, there can 268 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: be a crushing scenario. But this just means everything, uh 269 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: that these sort of things would be, uh, are more exaggerated. Yeah, 270 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: I didn't even consider this. But so if the ocean 271 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: is suddenly about ten percent heavier at the molecular level, 272 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: the pressure at the bottom of the ocean would also 273 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: be a lot higher. So so you're suddenly down there 274 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: and it's like somebody's just like put an extra backpack 275 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: on you. Yeah. Absolutely. Also, Velson says that everything floating 276 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: in the ocean would displace more mass, so ships would 277 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: need extra ballast to stay at the same level in 278 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: a heavy water ocean. And then this is interesting, Velson writes, quote, 279 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: a large portion of the oceans would freeze instantly due 280 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: to a higher freezing point. This would release a lot 281 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: of heat into the atmosphere in the polar regions, causing 282 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: a massive imbalance and resulting in some pretty spectacular polar 283 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: cyclones unquote. Well, and then on top of this, the 284 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: mass of the planet would change, This would alter the 285 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: Moon's orbit, and basically it would just mess with weather 286 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: and climate in a major way, resulting in earthquakes, tidal way, 287 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: it's rising sea levels. But of course, to change the 288 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: ocean is to change life as well. So we'll come 289 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: back to this and I'll come back to Nelson's points 290 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: in a debt. Thank alright. So I know what you 291 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: out there are already wondering, Should I drink it? Heavy water? 292 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: Should I? Should I? You know, get a big bucket 293 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: of it and just gulp, gulp, gulp. It sounds like 294 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: the the ultimate metal head like bottled water, right, heavy water? 295 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they would sell it at the metal shows. 296 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: That's really good. So there's actually a great article about 297 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: the history of drinking heavy water in the journal Nature 298 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: Chemistry by the American chemist Michelle Francel. We actually quoted 299 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: a piece by her, uh at some point in the 300 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: past year, because she wrote a thing that we did 301 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: for Cupid's Lead and Narrow. That was it. She wrote 302 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: an article about the history of sugar of lead as 303 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: it was used in ancient Rome. That was really good. 304 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: But this piece is called The Weight of Water. So 305 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: it's published in Nature Chemistry in twenty nineteen. So she 306 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: begins the story in nineteen thirteen talking about when the 307 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: Hungarian chemist George to Heavis She was visiting the lab 308 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: of Ernest Rutherford in Manchester, England. Now, eventually both of 309 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: these scientists would have Nobel Prizes for their discoveries, but 310 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: at this point Rutherford was the was the senior scientist, 311 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: and Heavis she was more of a young student, you know. 312 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: He was still learned in the ropes. And Rutherford had 313 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: given Heavis she a task here. He wanted to get 314 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: him to take a quantity of lead and find a 315 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: way to chemically isolate all of the radioactive atoms of 316 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: what was then known as radium D from the lead 317 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: in this sample. And Heavis she was unable to find 318 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: a way to do this because what they were calling 319 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: radium D was actually not radium, but a radioactive isotope 320 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: of lead that is now known as lead to ten. 321 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: But in the process of working on this problem that 322 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: he never ended up solving, he is She realized a 323 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: potentially very interesting implication of this failure. When a sample 324 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: contains a radioisotope, a radioactive atom within a massive other atoms, 325 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: you can use these radioactive atoms to track the movement 326 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: of a chemical through a biological system. So, for example, 327 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: if you're curious how lead in the soil is taken 328 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: up by bean plants and then distributed around the plant's body, 329 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: you can spike the soil with radioactive isotopes of lead, 330 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: so the plant will take them up because they're still lead, 331 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: it will treat them the way it normally treats lead, 332 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: but because they're radioactive, they're radioisotopes, you can track what 333 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: the plant is doing them with them. You can use 334 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: equipment to track exactly how these isotopes are metabolized through 335 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: the roots, the stem, the leaves, and you can also 336 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: use these radioactive tracers to track the absorption and elimination 337 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: of elements in animal bodies. So you could find out, well, 338 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: when when somebody ingests lead, does the body immediately purge 339 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 1: it or does the lead stick around? How long does 340 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: it take the body to purge it? Where does it 341 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: go in the body. And it turns out you can 342 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: use radioactive tracers to find out lots of things about 343 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: what's going on in the body, not just in basic 344 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: biological research, but actually in medicine. Radioactive tracers are used 345 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: in medicine all the time. Now Here, I wanted to 346 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: mention a couple of anecdotes that came across about heavys 347 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: She that are really interesting. He seems like a kind 348 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: of mythic hero in a way, a sort of Romulus 349 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: or Gilgamesh here, or maybe we should say Bill Gamesh, 350 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: uh Bill Gamesh to heav is She. So there were 351 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: a couple of the most popular stories about his life 352 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: that that I I couldn't pass up mentioning. The first 353 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: one I found recounted in a short historical article in 354 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: the Journal of Nuclear Cardiology, and it concerns how heavy 355 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: she first demonstrated that tracer principle that I was just 356 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: talking about. So this is by Strauss at all, uh 357 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: from and the authors here talk about while heaves She 358 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: was working in Manchester in lab in the early nineteen tens, 359 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: he was living at a boarding house that had been 360 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: recommended to him by Rutherford. By the way, so his 361 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: boss is like, hey live in this place, and apparently 362 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: it was just miserable there, he is. She started noticing 363 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: that he didn't just hate his lodgings, he really hated 364 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: the food at his boarding house. He had a sensitive stomach, 365 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: he suffered from indigestion, and he started to suspect something 366 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: was going on. What he thought was happening was that, uh, 367 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: now this is an old school boarding house, right, so 368 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: they give you not just a bed, but a bed 369 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: and your daily meals. And he started to suspect that 370 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: his landlady was recycling food. So you know, she makes 371 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: you a great R. B. Frost and then you eat 372 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: a little bit of it and you don't finish it. 373 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: There's some still on your plate, he is. She suspected 374 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: that the landlady was just taking whatever you couldn't finish 375 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: off of your plate and then taking it back to 376 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: the kitchen and then mixing it up and serving it 377 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: again in some disgyised form the next day. Well, that's 378 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 1: just being a good mom. You know. You can appreciate, 379 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, of refraining from food waste here. But he is. 380 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: She was not happy with it because I think the 381 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 1: problem was the beef was already suffering from freshness problems 382 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: and was was being recycled to the point of possible 383 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: food poisoning. So at some point, uh he called. He 384 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: brought this up with his landlady to read from the 385 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: article here quote. His suggestion that she served freshly prepared 386 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: meat more than once a week was met with indignation. 387 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: How could he, she insisted, accuse her of serving anything 388 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: but the freshest of ingredients. Uh, so have is? She 389 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: decided to put this claim to the test using a 390 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: really amazing method, in fact, using some of the exact 391 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: same techniques that he had just been discovering recently in 392 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: Rutherford's lab that we were just talking about. So one Sunday, 393 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: when he is she had eaten as much as he could, 394 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: he secretly spiked the food left on his plate with 395 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: a number of radioactive isotopes. And I'm just gonna read 396 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: from the article here quote. A few days later, the 397 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: electroscope he smuggled into the dining room revealed the presence 398 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: of the tracer radioactive HASH. Confronted with the irrefutable evidence, 399 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: all the landlady could do was exclaim, this is magic. 400 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: The first radio tracer investigation had successfully followed leftover meat 401 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: from the Sunday meal to the kitchen meat grinder, into 402 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: the hashpot, and back into the dining room table. So 403 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: when in doubt, you know, spike your food with radio isotopes. Truly, 404 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: this is one of the great adventures in science right here. 405 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: There's actually a much higher stakes one though, that's a 406 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: story about Heaves. She's life from World War two. So uh, 407 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: there's a there's a great NPR piece about this from 408 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven by Robert Cruel, which that I'm relying 409 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: on here. I can't say the title or it will 410 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: ruin the story, but it goes like this. So in 411 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen forty heavy she was working at 412 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: an institute in Copenhagen, in the laboratory of the great 413 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: physicist Niels Boor. Uh Denmark had been invaded by the 414 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: Nazis earlier that year, I think that was in April 415 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty, and it was now occupied with German 416 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: troops raiding homes and marching in the streets, and they 417 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: just arrived in Copenhagen later in the summer when the 418 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: story takes place. So at the time, Nils Boor is 419 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: in possession of two gold medals. They are Nobel prizes. 420 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: In fact, which are made of twenty three care at gold. 421 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: But they're not his. They belonged to two German physicists, 422 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: Max von Laua and James Frank, who were both at 423 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: risk within Germany. Frank himself was Jewish and von Laua 424 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: was not, but he was known for his very fierce 425 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: opposition to the Nazi Party. Now they had sent their 426 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: Nobel medals secretly to Boor's institute for safe keeping. But 427 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: here we're faced with a problem. At the time, Germany 428 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: was at war and it was actually illegal to remove 429 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: gold from the country, So by sending their gold medals 430 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: to Boor's lab, Frank and von Laua had committed what 431 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: would probably be a capital offense back home. And worse, 432 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: it couldn't really be covered up because their names were 433 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: engraved on the gold medals. So Boor and his colleagues 434 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: were thinking, oh no, if if our institute is raided 435 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: and uh, it probably will be Born knew his lab 436 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: would be searched because it was known to be a 437 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: safe haven for Jewish scientists and and other people opposed 438 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: to the Nazis who were fleeing fleeing the Nazis, they 439 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: had come to his institute and now they were occupied. 440 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: Um so Boor realized they had to do something to 441 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: hide these medals because if they were discovered, you know, 442 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: these scientists back in Germany would probably be put to death. 443 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: So Boor and his colleague at the time, Heavish, discussed 444 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: their options. They thought about maybe we could bury it, 445 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: bury it in the gardens, but they worried that the 446 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: Nazis would dig all over the grounds and probably find them. 447 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: And then Heavys she came up an amazing solution, uh literally, 448 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: a solution dissolve the metals. This was not easy since 449 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: gold is not very reactive, it's difficult to dissolve. But 450 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: Heavish she knew that there was a solution that would 451 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: do the trick, known as aqua reggia, which is a 452 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: mixture of hydrochloric acid and nitric acid and a three 453 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: to one ratio. Usually so here, I just want to 454 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: read from the NPR piece, and Heavish in his autobiography 455 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: says because gold is quote exceedingly unreactive and difficult to dissolve, 456 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: it was slow going, but as the minutes ticked down, 457 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: both metals were reduced to a colorless solution that turned 458 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: faintly peach and then bright orange. By the time the 459 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: Nazis arrived, both awards had liquefied inside a flask that 460 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: was then stashed on a high laboratory shelf. Then, says 461 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: science writer and Radio Lab contributor Sam Keene in his 462 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: book The Disappearing Spoon quote, when the Nazis ransacked Bares Institute, 463 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: they scoured the building for loot or evidence of wrongdoing, 464 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: but left the beaker of orange Aqua regia untouched. Hev 465 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: she was forced to flee to Stockholm in nineteen forty three, 466 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: but when he returned to his battered laboratory on v Day, 467 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: he found the innocuous beaker undisturbed on a shelf. And 468 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: there's a codage of the story that's pretty interesting. So 469 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: after the war was over, heavy She again used chemistry 470 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: to re extract the same gold from the beakers, had 471 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: that sent to Stockholm, where it was reformed into new 472 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: medals that were again presented to the original recipients. Interesting, 473 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: I mean, kind of unnecessary. I guess that the same 474 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: gold to actually go back to create the you know, 475 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: the same awards, but still neat. It's got that magic thing, 476 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, people always want to like melt down a 477 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: symbol of one thing and turn it into another. I 478 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: guess in this case it was melting down a symbol 479 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: of one thing and turning it back into itself, but 480 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: still has some of the same kind of symbolic weight there. Yeah, 481 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: there's kind of a you know, sitcom level um circular 482 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: motion to the whole thing. Right, we come back at 483 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: the end of the day, we still have the same words. Again, 484 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: they've been reformed into the same thing we're familiar with. Yeah, totally. 485 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: But coming back from from those anecdotes so so so 486 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: now we got an idea of heavs She the character 487 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: hes She, the mythic hero. His life actually also ties 488 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: into heavy Water. So there was one day in Manchester 489 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen tens where heavy She was having 490 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: a cup of tea with the English physicist Henry Moseley, 491 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: and at the time heavy She was pursuing his radioactive 492 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: tracer experiments with plants, the ones that I was talking 493 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: about earlier, like the bean plants and seeing how they 494 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: take up lead and and all that. Uh So, the 495 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: idea was again that you could learn how elements from 496 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: the soil are metabolized in plant bodies by studying this 497 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: with with radioactive tracers, and apparently heav is she and Moseley, 498 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: we're getting all riled up about this idea, and he 499 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: is She posed a question about whether it would be 500 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: possible to ever mark the water molecules in a cup 501 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: of tea with some kind of tracer that could track 502 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: those molecules throughout the human body. And at the time 503 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: they did not know of a way to do this 504 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: with water molecules. But a couple of decades later, chemistry 505 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 1: would come around with an answer in the form of 506 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: discoveries by Harold Yuri, which we talked about previously, of 507 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: heavy water. So not long after the existence of heavy 508 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: water based on deuterium was confirmed in the lab, a 509 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: number of world class scientists decided, well, to hell with it, 510 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 1: you know, let's let's put it in our mouths and 511 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: see what happens. It was. It was a different time 512 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: of experimental regimes. And it's also funny because if you 513 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: read the scientific papers of the time, often they're just 514 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: like a paragraph long. They're just like, here's what we did, 515 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: here's what it tasted like. Nobody died. So in the 516 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: year ninety four, Harold Ury sent George to Heavish a 517 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: sample of water that had been enriched to zero point 518 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: five percent duterations. Remember, of this water is still the 519 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: regular stuff, but this would nevertheless represent a much higher 520 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: concentration of heavy water than a normal glass, right, and 521 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: that percentage is worth keeping in mind for later when 522 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about higher percentages in the human body. Right. 523 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: So heav is She and his assistant Eric Hawfer decided 524 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: to test the effects of a deuterium enriched aquatic environment 525 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: on goldfish. So they took twenty small goldfish and immersed 526 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,959 Speaker 1: them temporarily but for steadily increasing periods of time in 527 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: the deutorated water. Uh and so, to read from francel 528 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: here quote, the overcrowded goldfish rapidly exchanged water with the 529 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: deutorated water in the bowl, which became miserably less dense, 530 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: noting no change in the behavior of the zero point 531 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: two percent deutorated goldfish. Though how this might be assessed 532 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: with so many goldfish stuffed into a small glass for 533 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: up to fifteen hours at a time is unclear. Have 534 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: She apparently concluded it was safe to drink the heavy 535 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: water and proceeded to run the experiment. He described Mosley 536 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: twenty years before. So the rationale here is, Okay, it 537 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: seems good enough for a goldfish, good enough for me. 538 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to try it too well. But I like 539 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: that francel brings up again, like it's not exactly clear 540 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: how they were judging what the effects on goldfish were, 541 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: given that they were like cramming lots of goldfish in 542 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: a very small container of water. I guess they observed 543 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: that the goldfish were not dead, right, I mean, if 544 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: you're looking for them to like die instantly or explode 545 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, So it's not clear exactly whether heavys 546 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: She or Hoefer did the drinking, but one of them did, 547 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: and they consumed a couple of the samples. They collected 548 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: the heavy water from the drinker's urine, distilled it, and 549 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: measured its density, and about twenty minutes after the chugging, 550 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: deuterated water started showing up in the urine. And in 551 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: this experiment, heavys She and Hopfer found that the average 552 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: molecule of swallowed water lingers in a human body a 553 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: lot longer than it lingers in goldfish and humans. The 554 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: metabolic half life of a dose of water is about 555 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: nine days according to the test at least. But the 556 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: big question I guess is were they okay? Well, if not, 557 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: they didn't report anything. There was no sickness, also no 558 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: notes about what the water tasted like. So after heavys 559 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: She and Hoper published their paper on deuterium as a 560 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: tracer for water and animal bodies, another professor decided to 561 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: follow up by by addressing the question of toxicity head on. Now, obviously, 562 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: whichever one of the the h is drank the heavy 563 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: water was all right. But this wasn't an extremely deluded 564 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: form was a small amount of it. A professor named 565 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: Klaus Hanson of Oslo University performed a toxicity test on 566 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: himself in front of an audience including the press and 567 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of medical professionals, with equipment standing by like 568 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: stomach pumps and stuff, and Hansen swallowed what Francill characterizes 569 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: as a quote scant teaspoonful of heavy water. Now it 570 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: turned out the life support equipment was not needed. Hansen 571 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: was fine, though he did report what he called a 572 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: dry burning sensation after swallowing um. And then Harold c 573 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: Uri at Columbia University and his colleague Geno Fhaila decided 574 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: to follow up on this by staging a blind taste test. 575 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: So this is going to be like the Pepsi challenge, 576 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: but for juterium. Uh. And they published the results in 577 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five in a paper called concerning the Taste 578 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: of Heavy Water. As I mentioned, sometimes papers were very 579 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: short back then, so I can actually just read the 580 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: entire second paragraph of their paper here Tasting notes for 581 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: heavy water. Right, Okay, so here's what they said. In 582 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: order to make the experiment as objective as possible, a 583 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: third person in a different room prepared the samples to 584 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: be tasted. Each of us was then given two identical 585 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: watch glasses, one containing one cubic centimeter of ordinary distilled 586 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: water and the other the same amount of pure heavy water, 587 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: especially prepared for biological experiments. One of us kept each 588 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: sample in his mouth for a short time to make 589 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: sure of its taste, then spat it out. The other 590 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: repeated the same procedure, but swallowed the water. Either of 591 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: us could detect the slightest difference between the taste of 592 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: ordinary distilled water and the taste of pure heavy water. 593 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: It might be mentioned in this connection that one cubic 594 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: centimeter of water is not too small an amount to 595 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: taste properly. Since both of us could detect plainly the 596 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: characteristic flat taste of distilled water in both cases, it 597 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: may be concluded therefore, that pure deuterium oxide has the 598 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: same taste as ordinary distilled water. Um. Now, this is 599 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: funny because I've read some more recent studies. I think 600 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: one that was that I found in a preprint server 601 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: that has not been published yet that claims that they've 602 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: redone this taste test and decided that that heavy water 603 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: is noticeably sweeter. So they're disagreeing with Urie and Fila here. 604 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how to sort that out. But one 605 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: of the things about these taste tests that franc Will 606 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: points out is that they were ridiculously expensive, because at 607 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: the time, the scant teaspoonful of heavy water that Klaus 608 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: Hansen swallowed probably cost the equivalent of about a hundred 609 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in current US dollars. Uh. So, I don't 610 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: know if that's a good use of experimental resources. Uh, 611 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: it's probably. It's probably not surprising that Uri found these 612 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: human experiments wasteful, even though he did one. After all, 613 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: so like if a scant teaspoonful is a hundred thousand 614 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: dollars worth of product, you know, and a tea spoonf 615 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: of water is a vanishingly small sample compared to how 616 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: much water is in an adult human body. It's probably 617 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: just going to be prohibitively expensive to do toxicity experiments 618 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: on a human being with with this stuff. Yeah, I 619 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: mean this seems even above and beyond iracous prices for water, right, 620 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: I mean, this is crazy, Yeah, exactly. You make yourself 621 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 1: a heavy water still suit, don't don't lose a drop. 622 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: So if you were trying to understand the physiological effects 623 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 1: of heavy water at scale, you would need to test 624 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: it on a much smaller organism. And eventually some research 625 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: of this was carried out to figure out exactly what 626 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: deuterated water does to plant and animal bodies. That the 627 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: more research of this kind was done throughout the twentieth century. 628 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: A study in nineteen thirty six by Henry Barber and 629 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: Jane Trace found that heavy water was in fact quite 630 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: lethal if it could replace about of the water in 631 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: in the body. And I think this was determined with 632 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: with small mammals like mice um and this is sometimes 633 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: shorthanded to about one third. There there are various percentages 634 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: that are given, but basically you do not want one 635 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: third to you know, half of your body water replaced 636 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: by deuterated water. This creates immense problems. Um Replacement of 637 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: ordinary water with heavy water seems to kill the mammalian 638 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: body once you pass certain thresholds by primarily interfering with 639 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: mitosis or cell division, and in this way its effects 640 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: are strangely similar to what you would see with large 641 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: doses of chemotherapy. Metabolism slows down and cells stop dividing 642 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: and reproducing, and this can lead to of course sterility 643 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: and in the reproductive system, but also interior degradation of 644 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: the function of multiple organs throughout the body and a 645 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: kind of cytotoxic collapse before death. UH. The chemical principle 646 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: that's responsible for this is known as the kinetic isotope effect. 647 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: So I'll try to do the simple version as best 648 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: to understand it. Again, deuterium is chemically pretty much the 649 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: same as regular hydrogen. It's got the same charge, the 650 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: same proton and electron, but because of the heavier nucleus um, 651 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: even though it will usually engage in the same chemical reactions, 652 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: there is a tendency for the changes in the isotopic 653 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: composition to affect the rate of chemical reactions. So even 654 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: though detail is chemically a lot like regular H two oh, 655 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: it's heavy hydrogen forms stronger bonds with the oxygen atoms 656 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: in the water molecules than regular protium does, and this 657 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: means it's harder than usual to break up heavy water 658 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: molecules into their constituent parts, which in turn means lots 659 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: of chemical reactions happen more slowly, and this starts to 660 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: consistently slow down chemical reactions throughout the body. If you 661 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: replace too much of the water in your body with 662 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: D two oh. If there's too much of it and 663 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: chemical reactions get slowed down too much, all hell breaks 664 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: loose cells don't divide, and there there's a kind of 665 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: there are kinds of systemic collapse that that just come 666 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: from this. So heavy water makes for a very strange 667 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: and peculiar type of poison, you know, from everything I've 668 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 1: been reading. It's something that is usually harmless at doses 669 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: of even probably a glassful. But if you can really 670 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: load somebody up with heavy water to the extent that 671 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: it replaces somewhere between twenty five and of the water 672 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: in their body. It will absolutely kill them in a 673 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: horrific way. It is a ridiculously expensive way to try 674 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: and assassinate somebody. So I'm I'm kind of shocked it 675 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: hasn't been done in a James Bond all. This seems 676 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: perfect for the Bond world. That's a very good point. Now, 677 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 1: I think heavy water is not going to be nearly 678 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: as expensive as it was when those first taste test 679 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: experiments were done, but still, I mean, yeah, it would be. 680 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: It would be a needlessly elaborate method of assassination. I mean, 681 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,479 Speaker 1: surely one of those CSI shows considered it at some point. 682 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: Maybe they did it. I mean, I'd I'd love to 683 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: hear from anybody if if they if you have seen 684 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: a heavy water murder episode of some sort of episodic 685 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: detective show, I'd like to hear about it. Well, this 686 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: does tie into one particular example that Francile sites in 687 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: her article. Uh that no one was killed fortunately in 688 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: this example, but there was an instance of of heavy 689 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: water poisoning. Though the heavy water turns out to be 690 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: not necessarily the the important part of the story. So 691 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: there was an Associated Press article from March fifth n 692 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: that Francill sites, and I went and looked up the 693 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: original article. It's called power plant worker accused of spiking 694 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: cooler with radioactive water. This happened in in Canada, so 695 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: it's a dateline New Brunswick and uh, just to read 696 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: the lead here quote, a nuclear power plant worker was 697 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: charged Monday with spiking a lunch room cooler with radioactive 698 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: water that eight men drank before the contamination was discovered. 699 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: The eight who drank the contaminated water last month at 700 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: the point Lapro plant have have a slightly higher chance 701 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: of getting cancer, officials said, but are in no immediate 702 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: health danger. Uh. And the article goes on to characterize 703 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: this is probably some kind of practical joke gone awry. 704 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: Does not seem like a very good joke. Again, no 705 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: one died immediately from this, though. The person who spiked 706 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: the water was charged with a crime. Uh. And this 707 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: does tie into an interesting misconception, which is that heavy 708 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: water is naturally radioactive and heavy water it's not deudated. 709 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: Water is not naturally radioactive unless it's been made radioactive 710 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: by say by for example, like being the cool and 711 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: around a nuclear react um. Now water with hydrogen three. 712 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,399 Speaker 1: You remember, heavy water is the kind we've been talking 713 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,919 Speaker 1: about is with hydrogen two deuterium. Water with hydrogen three, 714 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: also known as tritium, would be another story. It is 715 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: definitely radioactive in all its forms, but far far less 716 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: common in nature. So if you were to drink heavy water, 717 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: it would not naturally be a radioactivity risk. It would 718 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: be this poisoning risk if you drank enough of it 719 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: and it replaced enough of the water in your body. Right, 720 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: And and that kind of brings us back to that 721 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 1: Velson uh q and a that was published in Slate 722 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier. You know, you instantly replaced the 723 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: world's oceans with heavy water. Well, you have these immediate concerns, 724 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: but then obviously that water is going to make its 725 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: way into organisms, and so Velson writes, you know that 726 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: basically the biological concerns here would start out uh milder. 727 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: You know, it would be more about bloat and weight, 728 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: lower blood pressure. But by the time you reach like 729 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: the heavy water mark in particularly in humans, we would 730 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: be just irreversibly sterile. And then certainly by the time 731 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,959 Speaker 1: you hit that fifty percent point, I mean, that's that's 732 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: definitely in the fatal zone. Uh So, you know, Velson 733 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,959 Speaker 1: writes that, you know that heavy water makes eukaryotic cell 734 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: division impossible due to the impact on the my mitotic spindle, 735 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: so most multicellular eukaryotic life would just snuff it extinct 736 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: within a few years. Yeah, I was looking at some 737 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: some possible exceptions. There are interestingly, organisms that are heavy 738 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: water tolerant, or much more heavy water tolerant than other organisms. 739 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: So prokaryotes, I think, in general, are more tolerant of 740 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: of being exposed to deuturated water than eukaryotes are. Bacteria 741 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: are going to be better off, and maybe they could 742 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: just like you know, re evolve new complex life forms 743 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: in the h in the deutorated world. I wonder if 744 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: they would be like slower moving life forms because the 745 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: deutorated earth would just like have slower chemical reactions. And 746 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 1: jem Role well, you know, I did a lot. I 747 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: was thinking the same things. I was looking around a 748 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: lot to find some examples or you know, some sci 749 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: fi visions of what heavy water organisms might consist of, 750 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: and and I was not able to find anything. But 751 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: I did find some some stuff about the idea of 752 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: of of heavy water organisms that have would have would 753 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: be cultivated for their use in magnetic resonant studies, and 754 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 1: these were proposed back in the late nineteen sixties. These 755 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: would again be cultivated versions of natural world world organisms 756 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: that UM in their heavy form would not be found 757 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: anywhere in the natural world, so as proposed by Cats 758 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: and Crespy in us in the journal Science back in 759 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six. There are various uses and products one 760 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: could derive from their cultivation. Higher plants and even simple 761 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: organisms like you mentioned can resist full deuteration, but there 762 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: are possibilities for other life forms. So so some of 763 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: the main benefits here would be their use in studying 764 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: UM heavy water isotopes, you know, following the path of 765 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 1: hydrogen in biological systems. Deuterated algae, for instance, which we've 766 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: had since the nineteen sixties, have a useful role in 767 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: the study of photosynthesis. But um, yeah, I wish I 768 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: could have found something about like the idea of the 769 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,399 Speaker 1: deuterated man heavy water heavy water elephants or something like that, 770 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: But I didn't find anything. That's how we get Middle Earth. 771 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: There's a sort of a chemical recycling event and and 772 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 1: and ended up there. Um. I did find one example 773 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: that I was looking at Apparently there's some kind of 774 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: nematode worm that can survive and reproduce in almost pure, 775 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: pure deuterated water. Interesting, there's always a worm. That should 776 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: be a slogan of this show. You know, whatever you're 777 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: saying about biology, it's like it's true in most cases, 778 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: but there's always a worm. Thank Now there's another way 779 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: that heavy water has been very important, and that's in 780 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: the history and development of nuclear technology and um, in 781 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 1: developing nuclear reactors and in the history of the development 782 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: of nuclear weapons. Yeah, this is all interesting, you know, 783 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 1: looking at the twentieth century certainly a time in which 784 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: our understanding of chemistry greatly evolved, and then of course 785 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: we began to understand uh, nuclear fission as well, and 786 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: scientists around this time, So nuclear fission, uh, this was 787 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: a discovered December of night. Around this time, scientists began 788 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: to realize that heavy water could be used as what 789 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: is called a moderator. So in nuclear reactors, a moderator 790 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,839 Speaker 1: slows down the neutrons to speeds at which fission can occur. Uh. 791 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,240 Speaker 1: It helps to create the conditions in which a true 792 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: fission chain reaction can occur and keep going. So a 793 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: nuclear reactor using heavy water can make use of naturally 794 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 1: occurring uranium rather than enriched in ranium, because again, you 795 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: can't just kick a bunch of naturally occurring uranium and 796 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: produce an atomic blast. So basically, uh, scientists in Germany 797 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: and in the UK they realized kind of early on 798 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: what heavy water could potentially do. Now, an interesting wrinkle 799 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,840 Speaker 1: here is that the US atomic weapons program ended up 800 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: depending far more on graphite as a moderator than heavy water. 801 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 1: But the Germans came to believe that graphite wouldn't cut it, 802 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: so they focused on heavy water. UM heavy water was 803 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: obtained by um electrolysis, and a leading facility producing it 804 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: was Norway's of the Moor facility. So the French and 805 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: the Germans both attempted to buy the entire stock. I 806 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,360 Speaker 1: think the Germans had purchased some, but then there uh 807 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: the French and the Germans both were like, we want 808 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: to buy it all, and aware of the military possibilities. Norway, 809 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 1: which was at that point neutral, sold it all to 810 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: France and and it was smuggled out of the country. 811 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: In that same year, however, the Germans took Norway and 812 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: the plant became a military target for the Allies because 813 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: of course, the whole situation here is it's suspected that 814 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: Germany is working on creating an atomic weapon, right, and 815 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: so the idea and they didn't know exactly how things 816 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: would shake out, but it looked at the time like 817 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 1: heavy water might be a really crucial element in achieving 818 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, right, and so there was obvious like terror 819 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: among the Allies that like, oh no, if they get 820 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: their hands on too much heavy water, they could build 821 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: a nuclear reactor that could potentially lead to weapons capabilities 822 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,959 Speaker 1: or whatever before we achieve them. So it's it's again 823 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: it's a one ring scenario. It's like, you know, give 824 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: us the weapon of the enemy, don't let them have it, right, Yeah. So, 825 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,760 Speaker 1: as a result, this facility was targeted five different times 826 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: um by the Norwegian Special Forces, by the r a F, 827 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: by the British Army, by the US Air Force, and 828 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: by the Norwegian Resistance. And these were efforts again to 829 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,360 Speaker 1: try and prevent the Germans from developing an atomic weapon. UM. 830 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: Operation Gunner Side was a particular note in this one 831 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,280 Speaker 1: for Norwegian age. It's parachuted into the area. They joined 832 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: up with four special agents of Special Forces agents that 833 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: had been deployed earlier on a recon miss mission, and 834 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: they all attacked the plant, destroying the heavy water section 835 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: of the plant and costing the Germans something like fives 836 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,879 Speaker 1: of heavy water. I think these missions had no casualties. Also, well, 837 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: these two missions that I mentioned here had no casualties. 838 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: There was one of the attempts UM ended up involving 839 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,320 Speaker 1: a plane crash and the the agents involved were executed 840 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: by the Germans. But but this particular mission, I think, yeah, 841 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: you're correct on UM. Now, it would ultimately turn out 842 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: that the Germans were not nearly as close as suspected UM, 843 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: but this certainly put a dent in their efforts. Basically, 844 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,240 Speaker 1: the immediate demands of the war, combined with the efforts 845 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,560 Speaker 1: by resistance and special forces here basically kept the nuclear 846 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: program of the of Germany in a kind of preliminary stage. 847 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: But of course the lies did not know this. They 848 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: just they just knew that some effort was underway and 849 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: it needed to be curved. Now, in more recent years, 850 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 1: there are all kinds of interesting uses that have been 851 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,879 Speaker 1: discovered for deuterium and UH and heavy water that might 852 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 1: not have even been imagined early on, or maybe some 853 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: of which were imagined early on, but nobody knew if 854 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 1: they would ever be achieved. One of the examples that 855 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: I was just recently looking at is this interesting idea 856 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,880 Speaker 1: of deuterated drugs, apparently the first one of which was 857 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: approved by the FDA in seventeen, but it's an idea 858 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,799 Speaker 1: that's been around for a long time. Yeah, I think 859 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,800 Speaker 1: the first patent was granted back in the nineteen seventies. Um, 860 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,279 Speaker 1: so yeah, it's interesting. Now, before anyone assumes this has 861 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 1: anything to do with turning your water heavy or any 862 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: sort of thing, the basic idea of these, uh, deuterated 863 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: drugs is that the resulting drug has a longer half 864 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 1: life due to lower rates of metabolism. So half life 865 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: when we're talking about medication, it's it's the point at 866 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,280 Speaker 1: which it loses fifty of its effectiveness inside your body. 867 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 1: So this isn't related to say, shelf life. Uh, it's 868 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,399 Speaker 1: about how the drug functions in the body itself, right, 869 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: so it can like act more slowly over a longer 870 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,399 Speaker 1: period of time. Um. And it's funny because we've talked 871 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: about several different ways now essentially one of the ways 872 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: that deuterated water will kill you if you drink too 873 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,800 Speaker 1: much of it, is it slows down metabolism and chemical 874 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,479 Speaker 1: reactions cell division in your body to a point where 875 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 1: you can't survive anymore. But there are more moderated forms 876 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 1: of consuming heavy water that people have long speculated, whether 877 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: rightly or not, I mean, this is still an open 878 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: question as to whether there's anything to these ideas, but 879 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,319 Speaker 1: have speculated that, well, maybe you could use this to 880 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: slow down chemical reactions in the body in a good way, 881 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,760 Speaker 1: in a way that's actually desirable, such as in life 882 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: extension or you know, human hibernation or things like that. 883 00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,320 Speaker 1: So I wanted to read apart from in Franceles article 884 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 1: where she says, quote mounta Banks have been promoting heavy 885 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: water as a panacea almost since the moment you're re 886 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: isolated the first sample. Even imminent chemists have not been immune. 887 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 1: In a nineteen thirty seven Popular Science article, chemists James 888 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: Kendall opined that the elderly might extend their lives by 889 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 1: drinking heavy water. Quote the heavy water drinkers reactions would 890 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: probably be slowed and possibly his mental processes also. But 891 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,200 Speaker 1: who wants to be fast at sixty? Well, I mean, 892 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 1: I guess you know, sixty was a different sixty seven, 893 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: I guess. But so the idea here is just don't 894 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: drink too much of it, drink a balance of it, 895 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,400 Speaker 1: and you'll be okay. It's kind of a never finish 896 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 1: your second drink approach to life. Yes, now, I want 897 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 1: to be extremely clear, we are not advocating that anyone 898 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 1: do this or claiming that this would be effective. But 899 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,760 Speaker 1: it is something that people have continued to speculate about. 900 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: So that one article that Francill princes in her article 901 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: is by A. Zion Lee and Michael P. Snyder and 902 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,839 Speaker 1: bio Essays in sixteen that is a it's a speculative 903 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 1: article that explores this question. It's called quote can heavy 904 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:16,240 Speaker 1: isotopes increased lifespan? Studies of relative abundance and various organisms 905 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: reveal chemical perspectives on aging. Now they site again some 906 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,320 Speaker 1: of the same stuff we've been talking about, the the 907 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: chemistry of the kinetic isotope effects which slow down chemical reactions. 908 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: And this sort of slows down all kinds of processes 909 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: that happen in the body that are in a way 910 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,880 Speaker 1: that they are metabolic processes that are associated with the 911 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 1: advancing of age. And so the authors here right quote. 912 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,480 Speaker 1: Previous isotope analyses have recorded pervasive enrichment or depletion of 913 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: heavy isotopes in various organisms, strongly supporting the capability of 914 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:52,280 Speaker 1: biological systems to distinguish different isotopes. This capability has recently 915 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: been found to lead to general decline of heavy isotopes 916 00:51:55,239 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: in metabolites during yeast aging. Conversely, supplementing heavy isotopes in 917 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: growth medium promotes longevity. Whether this observation prevails in other 918 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 1: organisms is not known, but it potentially bears promise in 919 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 1: promoting human longevity. So some of the ideas explored here. 920 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 1: The implications would be that you could possibly ingest certain 921 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,400 Speaker 1: amounts of heavy water to trigger um UH to trigger 922 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,040 Speaker 1: a sort of state of hibernation, which could be useful 923 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: and say like interstellar travel. France Will points that out 924 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,319 Speaker 1: um but also as summarized by France Will, basically their 925 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: observation is that quote. Yeast models have showed that heavier isotopes, 926 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 1: including deuterium, become depleted in organisms with aging. They suggested 927 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 1: as possible that periodically supplementing the diet with appropriate isotopeologus 928 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 1: could extend human lifespans. So if like you tend to 929 00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,400 Speaker 1: lose deuterium as you get older, maybe supplementing the body 930 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,439 Speaker 1: with some some you know, a little bit of extra 931 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: heavy water, a little bit of extra deuterium might do 932 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:02,040 Speaker 1: you some good. Again, totally speculative, proven, but there are 933 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,440 Speaker 1: there are some interesting tidbits and other organisms that suggests 934 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 1: the possibility here. Huh. So in the future, the idea 935 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: of say, heavy water supplements are possible, even if you 936 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,120 Speaker 1: end up having to buy them from Goop as opposed 937 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,320 Speaker 1: to her anywhere else, right, I mean, I guess the 938 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,319 Speaker 1: question would be like, is this gonna end up being 939 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,680 Speaker 1: science based medicine or is this going to end up 940 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,799 Speaker 1: being some some pseudo scientific miracle cure hawked on, you 941 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: know whatever conspiracy theory show. Um, But either way you're 942 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: it's going to be for sale. Now. An interesting thing 943 00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,880 Speaker 1: I ran across Joe was that um, apparently by by 944 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:37,600 Speaker 1: you can look at Mars, and by looking at the 945 00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:42,280 Speaker 1: ratio between deodded water and normal water on Mars, scientists 946 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,359 Speaker 1: are able to get a better picture of how much 947 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 1: water Mars lost in the past. So basically, the more 948 00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,640 Speaker 1: heavy water present, which is harder to lose than the 949 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: more water you lost over time. So to come back 950 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,000 Speaker 1: to that idea of like heavy nickels and normal nickels 951 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,000 Speaker 1: in your like personal Scrooge a duck bank, if you 952 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,799 Speaker 1: were afraid that lepricns were stealing your nickels and lepricns 953 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:10,399 Speaker 1: are incapable of carrying them the heavier heavy nickels, then 954 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: you could go to your Scrooge McDuck vault and you 955 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,239 Speaker 1: look in there and you count the heavy nickels, and 956 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,719 Speaker 1: you could you could determine how many normal nickels have 957 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: been stolen by lepricns based on the resulting ratio. That's 958 00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,440 Speaker 1: really cool, and I love your analogy, by the way, 959 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: but this does highlight the way that even if it 960 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 1: turns out that you know, deuturated water is not going 961 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: to extend human lifespans or anything like that, I think 962 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:42,879 Speaker 1: deuterium and heavy water will absolutely remain extremely important scientific 963 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,440 Speaker 1: atoms and molecules for for research because there are a 964 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,080 Speaker 1: secondary indicator of all kinds of things. You can find 965 00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,120 Speaker 1: out a lot about the world by looking at at 966 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,719 Speaker 1: heavy water content and how it behaves. Yeah, I just 967 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: wish I could have found a heavy water alien. I 968 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,399 Speaker 1: really wanted to find some somebody talking about heavy water 969 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:04,080 Speaker 1: aliens and heavy water people. So well, hey, that's that's 970 00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,239 Speaker 1: open field. Somebody somebody set up a homestead there. Yeah, yeah, 971 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,239 Speaker 1: somebody right about it. Now. The one thing that is 972 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: kind of related to all this in science fiction is 973 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,200 Speaker 1: that you have had some some some science fiction writers 974 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,160 Speaker 1: who have dealt with various proposed alternate versions of water. 975 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:26,399 Speaker 1: So author and National geographic journalist Robert C. O'Brien, who 976 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 1: lived nineteen eighteen through nineteen seventy three, uh, most famous 977 00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,080 Speaker 1: as being the author of Miss Frisbee and the Rats 978 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,560 Speaker 1: of Nim, wrote in nineteen seventy two novel titled a 979 00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,759 Speaker 1: Report from Group seventeen, and it had a lot to 980 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,600 Speaker 1: do with Nazi plots and a form of water that 981 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:47,200 Speaker 1: essentially brainwashes individuals. So heavy water apparently might have played 982 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,000 Speaker 1: a role in this idea along with this concept of 983 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:56,400 Speaker 1: polly water. This was a hypothesized, uh, polymerized form of water. 984 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,000 Speaker 1: They would have been kind of like a syrup, you know, again, 985 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:04,280 Speaker 1: more viscous. It doesn't actually exist, but it also infloy 986 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 1: the idea that also influenced Kurt Vonneket's Ice nine concept 987 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,600 Speaker 1: and Cat's Cradle. Oh yeah, and for those not familiar. 988 00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: Ice nine one of the great plot devices of all time. 989 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,960 Speaker 1: It's a it's an alternate form of the water molecule 990 00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 1: that freezes at room temperature, and it can act as 991 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: a seed crystal. So basically the premises you drop this 992 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,280 Speaker 1: in a lake and suddenly the entire lake will freeze 993 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:33,480 Speaker 1: at room temperature. It's bad. It's bad, and it doesn't exist. Uh, 994 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,920 Speaker 1: unlike heavy water, which is which does exist and is 995 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,520 Speaker 1: in you right now. Yeah, that's the interesting thing. Um, 996 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 1: it's weird how reading about this. Uh, And I keep 997 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,120 Speaker 1: thinking about heavy water holding these uh opposing ideas in 998 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:48,560 Speaker 1: my head at the same time. I guess it's like 999 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,759 Speaker 1: an exercise in scientific negative capability, because I keep thinking 1000 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,719 Speaker 1: of heavy water simultaneously as something that's natural, found in 1001 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 1: all the oceans of the world. It's in your body 1002 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,960 Speaker 1: right now. It's gonna be harmless at the levels that 1003 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:05,319 Speaker 1: you ingested, but also is like a horrific poison, if 1004 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,279 Speaker 1: you know, if ingested in the wrong way. Yeah, I mean, 1005 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:09,920 Speaker 1: of course we have we often have to think about 1006 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,160 Speaker 1: that in terms of a lot of different things, including 1007 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 1: just normal water, right I mean, um, as well as 1008 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:21,040 Speaker 1: like various household spices, um, you know, moderation and all things, right, 1009 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what holds the world together, holds their 1010 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,720 Speaker 1: bodies together, just dealing with without any you know, ethical 1011 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: interpretations of the statement like there is a there is 1012 00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,440 Speaker 1: a balance. There's a chemical balance in all things. And 1013 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,040 Speaker 1: that's kind of I mean, that's kind of one of 1014 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,760 Speaker 1: the big take homes of the chemical revolution. In addition 1015 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,640 Speaker 1: to you know, developing all these chemicals of life and 1016 00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 1: then also these chemicals of death during the twentieth century, 1017 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, just are are are sudden you know, increasing 1018 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,600 Speaker 1: understanding of just all of these little bonds that hold 1019 00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:54,560 Speaker 1: us together. Extremely good point. One less thing I'll just 1020 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,040 Speaker 1: say again, don't start buying heavy water for life extension 1021 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,840 Speaker 1: unless it's actually backed up by science. Correct check the 1022 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: research on that. All right, Well, again, we would love 1023 00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,680 Speaker 1: to hear from everyone out there about heavy water. If 1024 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: you have any experience with heavy water, thoughts on heavy water, 1025 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 1: or indeed have you if you have read science fiction 1026 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,440 Speaker 1: or had any kind of science fiction based thoughts around 1027 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,240 Speaker 1: heavy water organisms, we would love to hear from you. 1028 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:23,760 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 1029 00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,480 Speaker 1: other episodes of stuff to blow your mind, you can 1030 00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 1: find us wherever you get your podcasts and wherever that 1031 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,560 Speaker 1: happens to be. 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