1
00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,200
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the

2
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:12,280
Speaker 1: modern whitetail hunter, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome

3
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,120
Speaker 1: to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon,

4
00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,799
Speaker 1: and today in the show where you're discussing ten books

5
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,079
Speaker 1: that all aspiring conservationists should read, and joining me is

6
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:38,760
Speaker 1: Ed Robertson of the Mountain and Prairie podcast. All right,

7
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 1: welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you

8
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,839
Speaker 1: by First Light. We're here for what I think is

9
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,920
Speaker 1: going to be our last episode of Conservation Month, and

10
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to wrap this one up with a little

11
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 1: bit of um I guess suggestions for those of you

12
00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,160
Speaker 1: who want to go further. If you've been interest did

13
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 1: in some of the conversations we've had over the last month,

14
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,280
Speaker 1: if you've been inspired, if you're just a person who

15
00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,960
Speaker 1: loves deer hunting and deer and open spaces and other

16
00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,600
Speaker 1: wildlife hunting, fishing, public lands, anything like that, and if

17
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,040
Speaker 1: you want to try to do some of the stuff

18
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,400
Speaker 1: we've talked about and you want to learn more about

19
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,080
Speaker 1: how you can give back to these animals and places

20
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 1: and causes, I want to give you some suggestions for

21
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,480
Speaker 1: where you can go to learn more or where you

22
00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,400
Speaker 1: can go to be inspired further or to dive into

23
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: these topics even deeper. So we're gonna go through a

24
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,720
Speaker 1: set of book recommendations. This is gonna be our little

25
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 1: Wired to Hunt book club set of reading resources for

26
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,319
Speaker 1: those who want to dig into this even more. And

27
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,200
Speaker 1: the guy joining me is Ed Robertson. He's the host

28
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,360
Speaker 1: of the Mountain and Prairie Podcast, a really, really, really

29
00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,920
Speaker 1: good podcast that I listened to personally, UM exploring all

30
00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,200
Speaker 1: sorts of issues related to the American West and conservation

31
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 1: issues of all kinds UM. He's also the conservation director

32
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,480
Speaker 1: at the Palmer Land Conservancy, and he's the writer of

33
00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,520
Speaker 1: a terrific newsletter that comes out I think every other month,

34
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,359
Speaker 1: full of book recommendations. The reason why I want in

35
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,560
Speaker 1: this show in particular is that he's one of the

36
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,839
Speaker 1: only people I know who seems to read as voraciously

37
00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 1: as I do about these types of things. So I'm

38
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 1: always looking forward to his book recommendations. Whenever he mentions

39
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 1: the book, I'm always on it. I'm always looking it up.

40
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:32,960
Speaker 1: I know it's gonna be a good one. So he

41
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:34,800
Speaker 1: seemed to be the perfect person to come on here

42
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,160
Speaker 1: and talk about this kind of stuff. So you know,

43
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,919
Speaker 1: what we're gonna talk about is, of course book recommendations,

44
00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 1: but we also do get to some other media suggestions.

45
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,360
Speaker 1: We talked about some favorite documentaries, we talked about some newsletters,

46
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,440
Speaker 1: we really like, a couple of podcasts we like. Um So,

47
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,800
Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about anything along these lines,

48
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,399
Speaker 1: we've got ideas for it. But I will say, if

49
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,600
Speaker 1: you are not a big reader, if you don't buy

50
00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 1: a lot of books and sit there in your chair

51
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,400
Speaker 1: at night and read, I would at least you know

52
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,240
Speaker 1: I'm biased here, but I would still suggest you tune

53
00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 1: into this one because man, if you're listening to a podcast,

54
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,120
Speaker 1: you can listen to an audiobook, and audio books are

55
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,200
Speaker 1: often just as just as much fun and just as

56
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 1: engaging as listening to a conversation like this. So tune

57
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,440
Speaker 1: in and try a couple of these through your earbuds,

58
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,960
Speaker 1: go on your morning run, go on your drive to work,

59
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,240
Speaker 1: whatever might be. And you know, while I of course

60
00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: would hope you still listen to this podcast, add one

61
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,120
Speaker 1: of these audiobooks to your listening repertoire as well, because

62
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,280
Speaker 1: I think you know, we talked about this later in

63
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 1: the show, a book allows you to go deeper into

64
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 1: a subject. You can engage it in a just totally

65
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 1: different way than you ever could with a podcast conversation

66
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 1: like this. You know, we're only ever able to go

67
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,920
Speaker 1: surface level with these kinds of conversations. A book can

68
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:59,040
Speaker 1: take you down many, many, many layers deeper. And I'm

69
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,160
Speaker 1: a big advocate of that kind of thing. I'm a

70
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 1: big advocate of all these books. I'm a big advocate

71
00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,880
Speaker 1: for reading in general and continuing to learn and grow.

72
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,760
Speaker 1: Um And of course I love to do that when

73
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 1: it comes to actually deer hunting. But as we've been

74
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,560
Speaker 1: talking about this last month, there's more to being a

75
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,920
Speaker 1: deer hunter than just hunting deer and uh, I think

76
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 1: these books will help inspire and form and educate and

77
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 1: empower us all to to do a little bit of that.

78
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 1: More so, ten books all aspiring conservations should read with

79
00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,760
Speaker 1: Ed Robertson. That is the conversation we're going to have.

80
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 1: I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed this one. We go back and forth,

81
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,640
Speaker 1: we bounce back. Each of us had five ideas. We

82
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,440
Speaker 1: each share our recommendation and we kind of discuss why

83
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,880
Speaker 1: we like it, what the books about many of these

84
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: books both of us read, so we kind of riff

85
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,039
Speaker 1: off of each other and dive into not just the

86
00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,799
Speaker 1: book topics themselves, but also just talk about these issues

87
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 1: in general. So this conversation really ends up being more

88
00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 1: than just a set of like, read this, read this,

89
00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,080
Speaker 1: read this. It really ends up being Hey, I love

90
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,480
Speaker 1: this book, here's why, and then let's talk more about

91
00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,919
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. UM. So I enjoyed it. I

92
00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,920
Speaker 1: think a lot of you will too. I appreciate you

93
00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 1: tuning in, So let's get to my chat with Ed.

94
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,520
Speaker 1: Alright with me now on the show is Ed Robertson. Ed,

95
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. Thanks for having

96
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,440
Speaker 1: me Mark. I'm I'm really excited for this one. And

97
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 1: this is a oh. This is like an intersection of

98
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: two different circles on a ven diagram that that maybe

99
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't be as obvious to some folks, but to me,

100
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 1: it's a perfect fit. Um. I've been a big fan

101
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,440
Speaker 1: of yours, a big fan of your work for a

102
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,120
Speaker 1: number of years now, and I've just been waiting for

103
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 1: the right excuse to pull you into my world, and

104
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,160
Speaker 1: and this seemed to be it. So I'm glad, I'm

105
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,720
Speaker 1: glad we're here. Thanks for making the time. Oh yeah, man,

106
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:52,560
Speaker 1: Well I'm saying, you know, right back at you. I've

107
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 1: I've been a huge fan of everything you're doing. And

108
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,920
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, you said there two ven diagrams,

109
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,720
Speaker 1: but I think it could possibly be like or fifteen

110
00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,000
Speaker 1: different circles and then we're right there in the middle.

111
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,480
Speaker 1: But you know, everything you said, I say back at

112
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 1: you tenfold. You know, I'm just a huge fan of

113
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,680
Speaker 1: everything you're doing and how you've built your business up

114
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,720
Speaker 1: and how you you know, you really add a lot

115
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:17,680
Speaker 1: of value. I'm not, by by any means, I'm not

116
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,039
Speaker 1: a hardcore big game hunter, but I still, you know,

117
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 1: get so much value at every out of everything you do.

118
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,920
Speaker 1: And uh, anyway, it's just great to be here. Thanks

119
00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,240
Speaker 1: for having me. Yeah, I appreciate it. So let me

120
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 1: give you a little context and and and some of this.

121
00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: You know, But over the last four or five weeks

122
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,960
Speaker 1: or so, I've been doing a series here on Wired

123
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,520
Speaker 1: to Hunt kind of exploring a number of different conservation

124
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 1: related topics, um questions, issues and at different kind of

125
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 1: levels of how directly relevant it is to the core

126
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 1: audience of wire Hunt, which is you know, we're mostly

127
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,239
Speaker 1: pretty darned hardcore white tail hunters, but we're also outdoor

128
00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,560
Speaker 1: enthusiasts more generally hunt other things. We fish, we hike,

129
00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,159
Speaker 1: we can't, We do a lot of different things. So

130
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,159
Speaker 1: I know that these people listening uh are like you

131
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,039
Speaker 1: and I and that we we generally love the outdoors

132
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 1: and want to make sure it's around into the future

133
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: for us and our kids and grandkids and other people

134
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,760
Speaker 1: to enjoy. So this this Conservation Month series has kind

135
00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,840
Speaker 1: of been all over the place. We've talked about things

136
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: directly tied to white tailed deer. We've talked about things

137
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,640
Speaker 1: related to white tailed deer habitat. We've talked about things

138
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 1: like the influence of some of our forefathers like Aldo

139
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,960
Speaker 1: Leopold and the legacy he left um. But one of

140
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: the topics we really focused on last week was what

141
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 1: does conservation look like in in a regular life? Like

142
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 1: we talked about this idea of like being a conservationist,

143
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 1: but what does that mean, you know, on a day

144
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 1: to day basis? Uh? So, So I wanted to talk

145
00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,760
Speaker 1: to you and because of because of two things. Number One,

146
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: from the outside looking in, it sure seems like you

147
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: are a person who's taken this love of the outdoors

148
00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,320
Speaker 1: and this desire to give back in some way. You

149
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,640
Speaker 1: have seemed to have found some really great ways to

150
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 1: put that into day to day practice in your own life.

151
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 1: But then you've also been someone who seems to be

152
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,440
Speaker 1: fascinated and curious and interested with the whole suite of

153
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,160
Speaker 1: ideas and philosophies and adventures that all are related to

154
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,080
Speaker 1: these topics, and and like me, read about those things

155
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,080
Speaker 1: a ton and engage with a lot of media. So

156
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: so my my mission here today as twofold number one,

157
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 1: I want to get a little bit of insight into

158
00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,679
Speaker 1: how you got to where you are and why you

159
00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 1: went to where you are, And then the bigger discussion

160
00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 1: will be kind of having a two person book club

161
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,560
Speaker 1: here if you're willing and talk through a number of

162
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 1: different book ideas, and maybe some other things too, podcasts

163
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 1: or films or anything like that that folks can take

164
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,840
Speaker 1: a look at if they want to go further in

165
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,679
Speaker 1: this kind of exploration, if folks want to learn more

166
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,040
Speaker 1: about conservation or for an ideas or different people are different.

167
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,199
Speaker 1: I don't know the history or the future of any

168
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,199
Speaker 1: of these issues. I want to give folks a bunch

169
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 1: of options, a menu of what they could turn to

170
00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 1: next to keep dive into this stuff. And with your

171
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 1: podcast Mountain Prairie and your book recommendations that you send

172
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,760
Speaker 1: out in your newsletter and everything you do. UM, I

173
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 1: know that you are similar to me, very well read

174
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 1: on a lot of these things. UM, so I thought

175
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 1: you'd be the perfect guy to talk about this stuff.

176
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 1: Are you? Are you game for that? Oh? Yeah, man,

177
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 1: I just again, I appreciate you have me on and

178
00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,200
Speaker 1: um I was getting ready to say, well, that's actually uh,

179
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 1: that's actually a character I play, is that the conservation

180
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:44,160
Speaker 1: GUYDA work for actually work for excellent. But it's been

181
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,319
Speaker 1: quite a cool story, I mean as far as that

182
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 1: how ended up in this conservation world. But I think

183
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: you and I are very similar in that we're um,

184
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,079
Speaker 1: you know, both curious, it could possibly be curious to

185
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,079
Speaker 1: a fault, um just trying to absorb this this information

186
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,760
Speaker 1: across a wide, um you know, wide spectrum of of

187
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,600
Speaker 1: any different kind of media we can find. And so I, UM, yeah,

188
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,360
Speaker 1: I think we will have a lot to talk about

189
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,080
Speaker 1: and I think, if anything, the challenge is gonna be

190
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,840
Speaker 1: to keep it within uh like ten hours yeah, well

191
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 1: give me, give me a little bit of that backstory. Ed, Um,

192
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,600
Speaker 1: how did you get to this point where so much

193
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,120
Speaker 1: of your life does revolve around conservation related issues? What

194
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 1: was kind of impetus for that? And how did it

195
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 1: go from maybe uh uh an inkling of an idea

196
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,320
Speaker 1: to a vocation and career. Yeah, well, I mean to

197
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 1: to go way back. People can tell by this accident.

198
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm not from the West Originally. I grew up in

199
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,160
Speaker 1: eastern North Carolina, and uh, I always loved the outdoors,

200
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:47,719
Speaker 1: you know, I spent I think I spent the vast

201
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,360
Speaker 1: majority of my childhood hanging out in this ditch in

202
00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 1: my neighborhood, uh, chasing frogs and catching, you know, trying

203
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,760
Speaker 1: to fish and doing all this just outdoor type stuff.

204
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,280
Speaker 1: And I think I went to college in North Carolina. Uh,

205
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,839
Speaker 1: and I always wanted to go out west and move

206
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,680
Speaker 1: out west. But I think at HWO, I took myself

207
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,160
Speaker 1: too seriously just to go out and be a scheme

208
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,840
Speaker 1: bum like I think I probably should have been. And

209
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 1: so when I got out of college, Um, you and

210
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,600
Speaker 1: I share a similar um, you know background in the

211
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,600
Speaker 1: early days of our careers, and I decided right it's

212
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,319
Speaker 1: time to be a grown up. I'm gonna go get

213
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,720
Speaker 1: a job at Merrill Lynch and I'm gonna wear a

214
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,480
Speaker 1: suit every day, and I'm gonna be a serious grown up.

215
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:34,959
Speaker 1: And I mean, it's, uh, it's funny how how we

216
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,240
Speaker 1: we do that? And you know, you're trying to be

217
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,240
Speaker 1: responsible and trying to follow this well worn path. And

218
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,760
Speaker 1: I think, you know, for some people with works and

219
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 1: some people they love it, but for me, it just

220
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,480
Speaker 1: didn't click. And I couldn't quite figure it out because

221
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I'm doing what I feel like I'm

222
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,120
Speaker 1: supposed to do, but this is very boring and I

223
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 1: don't really feel fulfilled doing it. And I eventually got

224
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,199
Speaker 1: into the commercial real estate business, which is really more

225
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,320
Speaker 1: the same in North Carolina, wearing a suit, you know,

226
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,440
Speaker 1: trying to sell warehouses and office buildings and things like that.

227
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,079
Speaker 1: And I just had this urge like I really want

228
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,720
Speaker 1: to move out West. I want to move out West.

229
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,720
Speaker 1: And I didn't even really know what that meant. I mean,

230
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,560
Speaker 1: I'd had a few trips, like my dad and I

231
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 1: rafted the Grand Canyon when I was in high school,

232
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,360
Speaker 1: and I went on a like a backpacking campig trip

233
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,480
Speaker 1: in Colorado, but I just had this urge to be

234
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,200
Speaker 1: moving west and so eventually, um, I just made up

235
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,440
Speaker 1: my mind, all right, I'm gonna move to Jackson Hole.

236
00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,120
Speaker 1: And I don't I don't really care if I have

237
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 1: to if I have to wait tables or do whatever.

238
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,400
Speaker 1: I just I really want to live out there. But

239
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,679
Speaker 1: it was during the real estate boom, um, you know,

240
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,520
Speaker 1: around two thousand and four, two thousand and five, and

241
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,080
Speaker 1: I found out about this job selling ranches called a

242
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,080
Speaker 1: ranch broker, and I was like, what, like, that's a

243
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,720
Speaker 1: real job. You get to broker the sale these and

244
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,440
Speaker 1: these you know, these big ranches, like the kind of

245
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,080
Speaker 1: things like Ted Turner spots and um. And so I

246
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 1: just kept hassling different companies and sending my resume out

247
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 1: and finally one of them was like, hey, we're interested

248
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 1: in talking with you. And so I flew out, flew

249
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,240
Speaker 1: out of Jackson Hole, had a meeting with them, and

250
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 1: they ended up hiring me. So I moved to Jackson Hole.

251
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: And at the time, you know, it was awesome. Um

252
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 1: it was I was in the real estate business doing

253
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 1: what I had been doing, and I was able to

254
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,600
Speaker 1: kind of step up my real estate career because I was, um,

255
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 1: you know that everything was just crazy during that time.

256
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 1: The the real estate market was wild, and um, so

257
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 1: I was able to be out west. I wasn't married,

258
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,040
Speaker 1: didn't have a girlfriend. I just had a dog. And

259
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,120
Speaker 1: so I was traveling all over Montana, Idaho, Utah, Colorado

260
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 1: doing these ranch deals. And this is where it's kind

261
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,240
Speaker 1: of funny because a lot of who I was working

262
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:42,320
Speaker 1: with were real estate developers, and I had this idea that, well,

263
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 1: if they're doing that, if these guys are doing this,

264
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,680
Speaker 1: I know I could do it. And you know, I

265
00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 1: felt like for every dollar I was making, they were

266
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 1: making a hundred dollars. And so I got in my head,

267
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 1: all right, I want to be a real estate developer.

268
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do that. So I'm gonna

269
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 1: go to a business school. And so I started applying

270
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,440
Speaker 1: to different NBA program, got accepted to one, got a

271
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 1: full scholarship, which was kind of a surprise, and went

272
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,120
Speaker 1: back to business school. But I saw halfway through the program,

273
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,160
Speaker 1: so this would have been uh oh, seven oh eight.

274
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,640
Speaker 1: Halfway through the program, and two different things happened. One

275
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,040
Speaker 1: the whole real estate market collapsed, and I saw that

276
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,520
Speaker 1: a lot of these so called developers that I've been

277
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,000
Speaker 1: working with out West were not really developers. It was

278
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,560
Speaker 1: just kind of a scam. And a lot of these

279
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 1: big plans they had to turn, you know, ranches into

280
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 1: these shared communities or whatever, just fell apart and in

281
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:41,080
Speaker 1: there in the wake of their poor business, left kind

282
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,920
Speaker 1: of a destroyed landscape. And so, you know, this obsession

283
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 1: with the West I had had forever I was I

284
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,200
Speaker 1: was just I wanted to live out West. I wanted

285
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 1: to play a part in it. I had moved out West,

286
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,120
Speaker 1: and in some ways I had helped facilitate the um

287
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 1: screwing up of a lot of these landscapes that I

288
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: love so much. And then I also had a terrible

289
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 1: health scare during business school the summer between my first

290
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 1: and second year. Um, I went to the doctor one

291
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,200
Speaker 1: day and they're like, yeah, you got to testicular cancer,

292
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:15,080
Speaker 1: and uh, it was a it was quite a it

293
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 1: was like I had a midlife crisis at age thirty.

294
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,120
Speaker 1: And so the combo of all those things, I ended

295
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,240
Speaker 1: up being fine with the with the whole health scare,

296
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 1: no big you know, no big deal in the in

297
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 1: the long run as far as my my health. But

298
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,360
Speaker 1: it was a big deal as far as my outlook

299
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,880
Speaker 1: on things. So the combination of thinking I was gonna

300
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 1: die there for a little while, combined with seeing this

301
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 1: destruction that had taken place in this area of the

302
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 1: West that I love so much, it just made me

303
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 1: really start re evaluating my choices and what I wanted

304
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 1: to do. And so I didn't want to be a

305
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 1: real estate developer anymore. But I really didn't know what

306
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. But I did have all these

307
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,680
Speaker 1: skills in real estate, and so when I got out

308
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 1: of business school, my wife and I actually lived abroad

309
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,120
Speaker 1: for a year, and then after that I got back

310
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 1: into the real estate business, but with the conservation focus,

311
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,960
Speaker 1: and so I worked like, for example, I did a

312
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 1: deal with Cresty Butte um Ski Resort where they owned

313
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 1: some property and we sold it to a land trust.

314
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 1: Um it was conserved in perpetuity and there was some

315
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 1: trail access that was put in place in perpetuity. I

316
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: worked with some different counties in Colorado to turn private

317
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 1: ranches into open space through acquisition, and I realized kind

318
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 1: of over the course of doing these deals that I

319
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 1: really felt a connection to the conservation side of things

320
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 1: more than I did to like the deal making fast

321
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 1: talking like selling stuff. I mean, it's a cool it's

322
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 1: a good way to make a living, and you can

323
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 1: make a lot of money doing it, but I just didn't.

324
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: I didn't really feel that much of a connection to it.

325
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,480
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of um that that ranch brokerage

326
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 1: business can be very adversarial. So even though we were

327
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 1: doing some cool deals that led to conservation outcomes, it

328
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 1: was it was kind of a rough business, and so

329
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 1: I just just I was on the board of a

330
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 1: local um, a regional land conservation organization, and I got

331
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 1: I got a pretty big deal done with a county

332
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: open space program up in the mountain here in Colorado,

333
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 1: and then I went to the executive director. I said, hey,

334
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if you'd have a need for somebody

335
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,480
Speaker 1: like me with my background, but if you would, I

336
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 1: I'd love to do this full time. And thankfully she

337
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 1: was able to find a spot for me. So now

338
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,080
Speaker 1: for about the last four years, I've been doing full

339
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,800
Speaker 1: timely and conservation, which is you know, it's basically real estate,

340
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, it's for what

341
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 1: at least what I consider to be a greater good.

342
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,199
Speaker 1: So that's kind of the it was supposed to be

343
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 1: short but long version of my weird career trajectory. It wasn't.

344
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 1: It wasn't too long. Um So, now you work for

345
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 1: a land conservancy, right, can you can you describe real

346
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 1: briefly just what that actually means, Like, what does a

347
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,880
Speaker 1: group like Palmer do? I mean, I know involves easemans

348
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 1: and different things like that, but how does conservation and

349
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,520
Speaker 1: real estate, you know, intersect. You mentioned a couple brief

350
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 1: examples they are in crestedbut but can you just kind

351
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 1: of describe that a little more. Yeah, Palmer has three

352
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 1: main buckets that we work in. One is public open space.

353
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of public parks here and

354
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 1: called the Colora Springs area that we have conserved, and

355
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 1: we use a tool called a conservation easement, which is

356
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 1: is basically a deed restriction that prevents development on a property.

357
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of really beautiful hiking and

358
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: mountain biking trail areas here in Colora Springs and we

359
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: have protected those in perpetuity they will always be open space.

360
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,160
Speaker 1: We also work with a lot of farmers and ranchers

361
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 1: and that's mostly what I do. One of my big

362
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 1: projects is trying to figure out a way to balance

363
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 1: the water needs here in the West, which is a

364
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 1: you know, that's a big issue obviously, and trying to

365
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 1: figure out how do we keep irrigated farm land irrigated

366
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,640
Speaker 1: but not at the expense of um cities and municipalities

367
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 1: being able to grow because they need water. And so

368
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,399
Speaker 1: we work with farmers and ranchers really to try to

369
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,919
Speaker 1: keep their farms and ranches as farms and ranches and

370
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 1: not be turned into uh, you know, housing developments or

371
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 1: shopping centers or anything like that. Not that there's anything

372
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 1: wrong with that, but we do you know, we obviously

373
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 1: need farms and ranches for a lot of reasons. And

374
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 1: then the second, the third bucket is just scenic views.

375
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 1: You know that if if you drive from here in

376
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,600
Speaker 1: Carra Springs up into the mountains, there's this big view

377
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 1: of Pike's Peak, and we have conserved all the ranches

378
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 1: along the highway there so you'll always have this really

379
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, beautiful big view of Pike's Peak and those

380
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,400
Speaker 1: ranches will always be open space and they'll never be

381
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, track houses or anything like that. Man, It's

382
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: it's such important work these days. That kind of thing

383
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 1: all across the West, with you know, just so many

384
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,679
Speaker 1: more people wanting to live these places, and so many

385
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 1: ranchers or farmers aging out and trying to figure out

386
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 1: what to do with their land once they don't want

387
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: to work it anymore, and kids not wanting to carry

388
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 1: on the family work. And you know, I mean, I'm

389
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 1: sure you deal this all the time, but just locally

390
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 1: around like the places that I've spent the last decade,

391
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 1: when I go out West and Idaho and Wyoming and stuff,

392
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: just seeing more and more houses and developments popping up.

393
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,199
Speaker 1: It's just it's scary, you know, thinking about one of

394
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,919
Speaker 1: my locally content their twenty or thirty years if there

395
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,959
Speaker 1: aren't more things done like what you're describing. So, oh yeah,

396
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 1: it really is. And and I think as more people

397
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: want to move out here, and you know, I'm one

398
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 1: of them, North Carolina and I've moved out here. And

399
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 1: but the as the property values increase, as these you know,

400
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 1: as the generations, um, you know, as as the properties

401
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,880
Speaker 1: moved through generations, when somebody dies, the you know, it's

402
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: a big deal for some of these farmers and ranchers

403
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: are being to pay the estate taxes as the real

404
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 1: estate value UM increases, and so that's where these conservation easements.

405
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 1: They're a tool that can allow that can generate some

406
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 1: income and can reduce the property value so that that's

407
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,679
Speaker 1: not as much of an issue because you know, some

408
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 1: of these farmers and ranchers they don't have any choice

409
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 1: other than to start selling off their land because the

410
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 1: value is so high now. So it's UM. You know,

411
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,120
Speaker 1: it's it's a challenge and it's tough, but it's it's

412
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,719
Speaker 1: fun to be working on and it's fun to spend.

413
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 1: You know. I'm I'm forty four, so I've been working

414
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: for quite a long time now, and to be able

415
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 1: to UM, you know, kind of apply these skills I've

416
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 1: learned over the years to something that matters to me UM,

417
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 1: and I think matters to a lot of people. I

418
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 1: think it's it's a real it's a real honor to

419
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 1: be able to do that. Yeah. So, so how about

420
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: this other half of your life? Though? You host the

421
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: Mountain Prairie podcast and you you know, do this. You've

422
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,120
Speaker 1: got this terrific reading list that you send out every

423
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: month with book recommendations, and it seems like you've you've

424
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 1: filled up any other gaps in your life with you know,

425
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 1: learning more about conservation and wild places and these things

426
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: you care about and discussing these ideas of other people

427
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: that also care about them. Um, do you think there's

428
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: as okay as a person who wants to let's let's

429
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: just say, as as an individual who says, you know what,

430
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: I care about these places, whether it's you know, an

431
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: open farm in Michigan or the National forest in Colorado.

432
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 1: I care about wild places. I care about wild animals.

433
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 1: I want to do some then I want to be

434
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: some kind of positive Um. I want to have some

435
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: kind of positive difference. So, like, let's let's just say

436
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: that is a feeling that one of us has. Is

437
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 1: there is there actual value, like intrinsic value, or is

438
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: it in some way a good thing to read about

439
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, learn about this kind of stuff,

440
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: dive into a library of books related conservation, or listen

441
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: to podcasts like yours who talk with folks to do

442
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. Is that valuable to the cause

443
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 1: or is this just entertainment? How do you look at

444
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: like all the hours you spend at night, probably sitting

445
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: in your chair or your bed reading these books and

446
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: learning about this stuff. Is that just entertainment for you

447
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: or do you think that that actually serves a greater

448
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: good in some kind of way. Yeah, you know, I've

449
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 1: always said that. And and one of the books actually

450
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: that I was gonna recommend this by a guy named

451
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: David Gestter, and he talks about um. He talks about

452
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: how in order to want to protect something, you have

453
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: to love it and it or in in order to

454
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: to buy into some calls and to to make it be,

455
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: you know, rise to the top of your priority list,

456
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: you need to love it. And so I feel like

457
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: whether it's going out for a hike or a run,

458
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: or going on a hunting trip, or you know, spending

459
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: time outside with my girls or reading these books. You know,

460
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: I read a wide variety of books, but when it

461
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: comes to the Western conservation, like, yeah, it's entertainment, yeah,

462
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: and enjoy it. But if anything, it just kind of

463
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: fuels this love of the place and of open space

464
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: and of wild places that causes me to want to

465
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: devote more and more time to it. And so, you know,

466
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: when I was working at Merrill Lynch, I was reading

467
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: all these books about the West. Whether it's likely you know,

468
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: adventures of mountain climbers or people on these river trips,

469
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: or then you know, dreaming about fishing on Flat Creek

470
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: and Jackson Hole or whatever, and that is kind of

471
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: a yeah, that kind of obsession, um is eventually lead

472
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: me to where I am, which is where I'm doing

473
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: it full time. And I don't think, I don't think

474
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: if anybody wants to make a difference, whether that's you know,

475
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: devoting their career to it or even just donating fifty

476
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: bucks to a local land trust, no matter what, you've

477
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: gotta be, you've got to be kind of obsessed with

478
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 1: it or buy into it, and and and and it's

479
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: got to be important to you. So I can't speak

480
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: for for anybody other than myself, but for me, this

481
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: endless reading and just curiosity about all this stuff that

482
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: is yes, entertainment because I enjoy it, but it just

483
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 1: fuels the work. I mean, I think all the stuff

484
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: you do with you know, with the back forty and

485
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: and your podcast and everything on Meat Eater like that,

486
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: that is fueling people who are sitting at home and

487
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: maybe they're you know, a job that they need to

488
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: pay the bills, but it's not necessarily the best thing

489
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: in the world. But I would guarantee that there have

490
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: been a lot of people who have sent their money

491
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: to like back country hunters and anglers because of watching

492
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: you and your colleagues at meat Eater, And so I

493
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: think it's kind of both. Really, it's both entertainment and

494
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: fuel to make you to to make you fall in

495
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: love with something and make you care about something so

496
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: you'll devote your resources towards it. If that makes sense, Yeah, yeah,

497
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: it does. At think it falls very much in the

498
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: line with with with my view, I guess too. I

499
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: feel like I if I were to sit and I

500
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: had this debate myself often, not terribly often, but ever

501
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: once in a while, I'll watch and we'll watch a

502
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: couple episodes of some comedy series or something, and I

503
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: get done with it, and I kind of feel like

504
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: I just ate junk food, like I just ate a

505
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: meal at McDonald's. But if I were to sit down

506
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: and read a book or something, I always, always, always,

507
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: even if it's mostly for entertainment, I always feel like

508
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: I did something more valuable, like I ate my vegetables,

509
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: um and particularly if it's a book about wild places

510
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: or conservation or history of these things or something like that.

511
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: It just it like fills up you said, fuelly, it

512
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: kind of fuels you. I feel like it fills my reservoir.

513
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 1: It like fills my gas tank, both with Sometimes it's

514
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: just actual tactical knowledge, like how do you make a difference,

515
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: Like how do I do something that's going to keep

516
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: this chunkle land wild? Or sometimes it's teaching me how

517
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: to keep hope or how to get piste off. Or

518
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: it inspires me, or it shows me that oh wow,

519
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: these people did this a hundred years ago. You still

520
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: you can do it too, or or your generation can

521
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: do it too. Or sometimes it changes my mind on

522
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: things and makes me look at stuff in a different way.

523
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: Sometimes it further uh solidifies my passion for something. Sometimes

524
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: it points me in a brand new direction that I

525
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: need to learn a whole bunch more about so that

526
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: I can start working on the right things. Um, I

527
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: just feel like, and I'm obviously biased, but I do

528
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 1: feel like if if if I want to say that

529
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: I care about these things and want to do something

530
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: about it, I have to constantly be engaging with it

531
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 1: and learning about it to make sure that my tanks

532
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: full and then my compass is point in the right direction.

533
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: I think that. And you know, and then also still

534
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: like have that you talked about, have that like love

535
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: and passion for it, and this is a way to

536
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: engage that thing to um. So I think that's why

537
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: I keep on buying these things in stamp late and

538
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: night reading them. No, I agree, And and I also think,

539
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 1: you know, in school, and you know, I've had this,

540
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: I've had the fortune of having this fabulous education, probably

541
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: too much education. But the reality is in school, like

542
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: when you're learning history, you're reading these you know, quote

543
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: history books, and it's just this like laundry list of

544
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: one thing after another. But what what I found as

545
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: a as I found I realized it probably midway through

546
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: college when and and I've you know, kind of gone

547
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: crazy with it as a as an adult. But they're

548
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: all these books out there that are really, really, really

549
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: fun to read. It's not like just boring history. And

550
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,959
Speaker 1: because I didn't really like history when I was in school,

551
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: in high school or college, but when you can have

552
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: access to books, and I mean, I think yours is

553
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: a perfect example of of a book that's kind of

554
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: like a personal journey, you know, some adventure, but by

555
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: by reading this book about this guy who's out exploring

556
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: all this public land, you kind of sneak in all

557
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: this this very specific knowledge about the history of public

558
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: lands and issues facing public lands. And so I think

559
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: for for people who may not be like big readers now,

560
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: or may not or may think readings boring or whatever.

561
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, I've been there and I

562
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: know that. But I think, what if you if you

563
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: find the right books, and they don't have to be

564
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: hardcore just straight up academic history books. They can be

565
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: a biography about somebody you know or like, like Hampton

566
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: Sizes for example, I think he's the master. He wrote

567
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: The Blood and Thunder, which is basically a biography of

568
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: Kid Carson. And but by reading this crazy story about

569
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: Kit Carson, you also learned the history of the American Southwest.

570
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: And and so I just think, you know, for people

571
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: who read a lot, this is all you know, it's

572
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: nothing new. But I think if if you just one

573
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: of these people, and I get it, who's like I'd

574
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: rather watch TV you're reading? You just you're probably reading

575
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: the wrong books. And so go for these awesome books.

576
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: And I know, I know you've got some really good

577
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: ones to recommend here, but I think yours is a

578
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: great place to start for this kind of stuff. Off,

579
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: so anybody Mark's pro bono publicist, read that book immediately,

580
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: that Wild Country and that Big Journeys to the Past

581
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: President Future of America's Public Lands, available at all bookstores.

582
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: Blah blah. I do appreciate the kind of words, d um.

583
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: But you're right um about the about the other stuff. Um.

584
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: I do think you know one thing that I think

585
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: is helping a lot of folks these days who maybe

586
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: weren't historically readers engage more of books. Which is a

587
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: cool thing is is how accessible and convenient audio books

588
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: are now. Yes, you know so, So we're about to

589
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: get into a bunch of book recommendations. If you're not

590
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: a person who likes to sit down with a physical book,

591
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: but you're listening to a podcast right now, well this

592
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: is just like a podcast these books, you know, grab

593
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: a subscription to Audible or go to Libby and get

594
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: these for free. Some of these you can get on

595
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: like that. This is Libby is like a like a

596
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: digital library for adio books. Um, and listen to some

597
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: of these. It's it's a great way to fail your

598
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: time while taking a run or driving to work or whatever. Um.

599
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of ways to get this kind

600
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: of stuff, but I do think that books have have

601
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: a unique way of diving deep into something and really

602
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: like taking you on a journey that very few other

603
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: media forums can. Um. Like, podcasts are great, but I

604
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: don't think I can do here on my podcast anything

605
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: like what somebody can do in a book. Uh, same

606
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: thing for like a magazine article or you know, a

607
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: TV episode or something like that. You just can't do

608
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: the same thing as a book can, in my opinion,

609
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: which is which is why I think they're so powerful.

610
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: I completely agree. So that said, I guess ed, should

611
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: we should we get into these book recommendations. Um, you've

612
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: got some good ones. I've got some good ones. The

613
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: idea here is I want to give folks a set

614
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: of ten maybe more by the time, and we dive

615
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: into some of these and kind of related books, but

616
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of different ideas of books they can pick

617
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: up and listen to or read if they want to

618
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: learn more about any number of different issues related to conservation.

619
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: So I I've got five recommendations, and I think you've

620
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: got five recommendations UM, let's just let's run through this

621
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: list and talk about a little bit. All right, who

622
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: want you want to go first? How about you? Ed,

623
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: You're you're the guest. What's your first one on the list. Well,

624
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: anybody who listens to my stuff or has seen my

625
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: reading list, they know that I've got possibly a weird

626
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: obsession with you or Roosevelt, really everything about the guy,

627
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: Like obviously from a conservation standpoint, but I always talk

628
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: about THEO Roosevelt, his operating system of just going as

629
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: hard as you can every day, you know, being being

630
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: very very focused and doing purpose driven work and living

631
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: what he called the strenuous life, just working working very

632
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: very hard towards a purpose that means something to you.

633
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: And so I could recommend, you know, Roosevelt books all

634
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: day long, but when it comes to conservation, I feel

635
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: like one of the best books out there, and it's

636
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: it's of all the ones I'm gonna recommend, this is

637
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: probably the toughest read. Um is The Wilderness Warrior, Theodore

638
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: Roosevelt and the Crusade for America by Douglas Brinkley. And

639
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: I know this is an important book to you and

640
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: you reference it in your book A lot um, but

641
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: it is probably I mean it's close to eight hundred

642
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: pages at least, and it is thick, and it basically

643
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: goes through every part of Theodore Roosevelt's conservation legacy, from

644
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: his time as a child and how he became so

645
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: obsessed with the outdoors all the way through his presidency.

646
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: And you know, when I know a lot of folks

647
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: who listen to your podcast or public land advocates and

648
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: I feel like, if you're gonna, you know, gonna be

649
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: involved in the public lands world, in public lands advocacy

650
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: these days, which is more important now than ever, you

651
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: really need to understand this time period when Theodore Roosevelt

652
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: was was around um and when because a lot of

653
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: the work that he and his colleagues did set the

654
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: stage for where we are now and to understand kind

655
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: of the the challenges facing public lands. It really helps

656
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: to kind of understand the foundation of it. But I mean,

657
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: everything from the Boone and Crockett to the Lacey Act

658
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: to the Antiquities Act, all that stuff is is based um,

659
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, during on Theodore Roosevelt's time both before he

660
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: was president, when he was president, and then one of

661
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: the things I always look for in books and is

662
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: I like to read a book that makes me want

663
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: to go out and read like ten more books on

664
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: the same subject. And this is probably the ultimate example

665
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: of that because like he talks I remember I read

666
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: this probably, I mean it was probably ten years ago

667
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: when I read this, but he talks about Gifford Peen Show,

668
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: and I thought, man, that guy seems like an interesting dude.

669
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: And that's I when I first read this, I've never

670
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: even heard of him. And then it's kind of led

671
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: me down a rabbit hole of reading different books like

672
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: The Big Burn for example, and um, and so this

673
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: is it is a tough it's a tough read, um,

674
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: just because there's just a lot of info in it.

675
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: But uh, it's not like you need to read every

676
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: single word and absorb every single word. But I think

677
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: if you can just kind of crank through it, it

678
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: will expose it at least exposed me to all these

679
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: new ideas and new people and kind of during this

680
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: very formative time of conservation the United States. And so

681
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: it's a it's a wonderful book. I'd love to hear

682
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: your thoughts on it, um, since you you used it

683
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: when writing an actual book. Yeah, now a percent agree

684
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: with you. Basically everything you just said is is exactly

685
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: what I think about it. Um. It is. It is

686
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: a like you said, it's a big, comprehensive book. So

687
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: it's not light, easy beach reading. It's not at all.

688
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: It's the book that you read, like if you want

689
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: to get a PhD. And this stuff, Like if if

690
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: you read that Wild Country, if you read my book

691
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: and you enjoyed that and you left that thinking, man,

692
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: I really want to get more into the details of

693
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 1: this history and more into Teddy. Like that's the first

694
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: one to jump to if you're willing to, like, if

695
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: you really want to dig in, if you want to

696
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: come out of this and like be a you know,

697
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: a a an expert of sorts, like within you know,

698
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: just regular life type of people and you want to

699
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: really get it. You can't find a better resource than

700
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: that one. Um. But what's particularly interesting about this for

701
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: hunters is that it's it's not just you know, a

702
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: heady history of politics and conservation. There's also some fun

703
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: stuff in there about Roosevelt's early years as a hunter

704
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: and rancher and cowboy and all that kind of stuff. Um,

705
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: So you get a little bit of that adventure side

706
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: of things. And really, I mean it's the dude's fascinating

707
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: and in his his impact is so far ranging. It

708
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: wasn't like he was just making a big difference when

709
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: he was president, which is what he gets a lot

710
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: of the you know, the uh rightfully still the publicity

711
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: today for what he did as president, but also as

712
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: the governor of New York, also as one of the

713
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: co founders of the Boone and Crocker Club, also as

714
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: you know, just what he was doing in those early years.

715
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: I mean he uh, he really had his fingerprints on

716
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: things for a very very long period of time that

717
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,919
Speaker 1: you know, as as hunters or anglers or hikers or anything. Today,

718
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: if you do something outside you are you're enjoying something

719
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: that Roosevelt had his his his his thumbprint on. Oh yeah,

720
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: definitely one of them. And I think, you know, if

721
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: somebody wants to, I get all these questions because I'm

722
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: so obsessed with t R publicly, and people were like, well,

723
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: what's the one book I should read, Like, if you

724
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: want to read one book on him, my favorite book

725
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: ever is called The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt by Edward

726
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: Edmund Morris, but there's another one called The River of

727
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: Doubt that just focuses on his expedition he did in

728
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: Brazil after he was president. And those are good entry

729
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: points just to the man um But if you want

730
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: to go deep, I don't know of a better book

731
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: than this one. Yeah, now, I'll give it like a

732
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: complimentary recommendation off this one that's not on my list.

733
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: But if you if you are willing to dive deep

734
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: into that one and you're interested in that, Brinkley wrote

735
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: another book that kind of acts as a sequel to

736
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 1: this one, and it's called Rightful Is It? Rightful Heritage?

737
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: Rightful Heritage? And that story that book is is just

738
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: like this Theodore Roosevelt book, but it's with Franklin Delano Roosevelt,

739
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: so it's about his cousin, and it covers the same

740
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: type of things. It covers basically the conservation history of

741
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 1: this time period from basically where Theodore Roosevelt leaves off,

742
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: all the way towards till the end of Franklin Roosevelt's

743
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: life and really going extending a little past that, even

744
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,959
Speaker 1: talking through everything from what went on during the dust

745
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: Bowl and the Depression and the conservation, civilian conservation Corps,

746
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: all sorts of things related to actually Eldo Leopold's involvement

747
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: in some programs in the thirties and forties. UM. I

748
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: mean there was those to that family, the rose Up family.

749
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: Between the two of them, they really had a an

750
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: enormous influence on public lands and conservation and in early

751
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: environmental protections here in America. So if you really want

752
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: to dive deep, that would be the next one to

753
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: kind of keep it get you down the road a

754
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: few more decades. Um. Both of those were super helpful

755
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: as I was exploring the history of these things, UM.

756
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: And I read somewhere that Brinkley was actually working on

757
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: another one which covers like the sixties and seventies, UM.

758
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: But I haven't seen news of that in years, so

759
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: I don't know if that one got if that one

760
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: fell off his radar, or if he got lost with

761
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: other product projects he's working on. But he's a he's

762
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: a great writer in his story, and I hope that

763
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: that one comes out because because I've really enjoyed his stuff.

764
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: If you like to get deep into it, he does

765
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: it about as good as anyone. Oh yeah, he's great.

766
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: I when I when I see books like this. I

767
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: just I wondered, just from a very practical standpoint, how

768
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: they go about writing something like that, because it's just

769
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: it's just an amazing piece of work and there's so

770
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: much info. I don't I don't even like him or

771
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: Doris Currents, Goodwin people like that, and it's just it's

772
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: really amazing that they're able to compile that much info

773
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: in a readable form. So those are great, no easy task, great,

774
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: great recommendation there, I second it, all right, Can I

775
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 1: give one go for it? Okay? So I I kind

776
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: of I kind of looked at my set of recommendations

777
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: almost as um they kind of fall in a chronological

778
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: timeline of sorts. So so my recommendations start by looking

779
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: back and the end by looking forward. And so my

780
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: first recommendation is a book called American Serengetti by Dan Flores.

781
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: And I've talked about this book in the past. My

782
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: buddy and colleague Steve Ronelle has had him on his

783
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: podcast and talked about it. So probably people have heard

784
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: of this one, um, but if you haven't, I can't

785
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: recommend it enough. And I recommend this as a book

786
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: that you should read if you want to you know,

787
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: live out a life focused on conservation, because this book

788
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: documents documents a series of real mistakes that I think

789
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: our predecessors made in the decades preceding us. It talks

790
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 1: about the Great Plans, It talks about how the American

791
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: planes were some of the most wildlife rich and vibrant

792
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: landscapes in the entire world, on par with with like

793
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: the African Serengetti Um. Just incredible both during the Pleisto

794
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 1: seeing you know, fifteen thousand years ago, when there were

795
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: cyber saber tooth tigers and short faced bears and all

796
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: those kinds of critters run around, but then also more recently,

797
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, three years ago, prior to Lewis and Clark

798
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: and then the preceding um March West by Europeans um,

799
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: there were just these unbelievable herds of buffalo and prong

800
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: horns and and packs of wolves and grizzly bears, and

801
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: just the wildlife was was unbelievable. And so this book

802
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: takes a look at that history, and it uses a

803
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: handful of specific species to kind of illustrate, you know,

804
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: what this looked like. So we get to dive deep

805
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: into the story of pronghorn, coyotes, wild horses which interestingly

806
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: evolved first here in North America and then disappeared. And

807
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: then we're also later uh they had crossed BARRINGI and

808
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: went over to uh Asia and then that's where they

809
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: ended up being domesticated and brought back here. Um so

810
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: wild horses, grizzlies, buffalo wolves. So we we take a

811
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: look at those six species or seven species and dived

812
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: into their stories, like what these critters were doing three

813
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: d four hundred years ago, and then what happened when uh,

814
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, Americans moved west and proceeded to basically decimate

815
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: the populations of all these animals and many others. And

816
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: then we we dive a little bit into within each

817
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: chapter how each of those two varying degrees has recovered.

818
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's just this very interesting look.

819
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: It's it's both fascinating because I love reading about what

820
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: these places were like and what these what these wildlife

821
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: populations were likely. I can't help but read something like this,

822
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: and then when I'm driving out west and going over

823
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: the plains in North Dakota, I can't help but come

824
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: over hill and think in my mind, man, what would

825
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 1: have looked like with a million strong buffalo streaming across

826
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: this grassy valley or something like that. So so I

827
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: read it and part of me is just like a

828
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 1: kid imagining this amazing thing. And then the flip side,

829
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: when you get into just the this the destruction that

830
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: we wrought on these places too, it's it's it's then

831
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: very sobering. So I think it's it's useful to remind

832
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: us what's possible, both the good and the bad. Right,

833
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: It's it's possible, like this is what this landscape could support,

834
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: and then this is what the worst inclinations, the dark

835
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: side of kind of human nature can also lead to overexploitation. Right,

836
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: So many stories of ever overexploitation um. And then again

837
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: the good, which is two different degrees. We kind of

838
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 1: right of the ship, we figured out whoa, whoa, whoa.

839
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: We can't just take take take, take, take, kill, kill, kill,

840
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: kill kill. We have to moderate, we have to protect

841
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: and conserve. And because of that, we do have great

842
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: populations of pronghorn, and we have recovered grizzly bears to

843
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: a degree, in wolves to a degree, and you know,

844
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 1: buffalo to a smaller degree um and and so it's

845
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: it's both sobering and inspiring to me when I read

846
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: this book. UM, and it's it's one of those books

847
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: where it's talking about history and kind of biology and

848
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: conservation history and all those kinds of things which could

849
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: be kind of deep text, kind of text heavy, tough reading. Um,

850
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: but this is actually a very easy reading book. Uh.

851
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,959
Speaker 1: Dan does a great job of of really telling these

852
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: stories in a way that um kind of pulls you

853
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: into the landscape and and makes it um not like

854
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: not as easy reading as like a fiction book, but

855
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: but one of the easier reading books that where you're

856
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: gonna learn a lot about history and about wildlife. It's

857
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: just it's just a fun and interesting book that I

858
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: think really can inform what got us to this point. Um,

859
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: I don't know, have you read that one? Yeah? I have,

860
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: and I love it. I mean, I think that book

861
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: and then his other book, Coyote America. He's actually had

862
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: Dan on my podcast long time ago. I didn't even

863
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: know him. I just I've gotten to know him since. Um,

864
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 1: but I'm kind of cold reached out And I remember

865
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 1: my mom listened to that episode. We were talking about coyotes,

866
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: and we talked a bit about like wild horses and

867
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: that kind of think. My mom said something like, you know,

868
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: I don't I don't care one single bit about coyotes.

869
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: I've never thought anything about coyotes. But I couldn't stop

870
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: listening to to him talk about it because it was

871
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: so interesting. And I think he writes just as he speaks,

872
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: And I think you don't have to have a connection

873
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: with any of those animals to just be drawn in

874
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: and completely fascinated by the stories of the animals and

875
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: then the stories of human interaction. But I'm with you,

876
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: and I hadn't really thought about it to you said it.

877
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: But I think, if anything, the books are are very

878
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: interesting or a historical perspective, but they if they're kind

879
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 1: of like uh, advertisement or something for for um game

880
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: management and wildlife management and what how humans can you know,

881
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: for better or worse, humans are here. We're here to

882
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 1: stay with you know, humans have have always been here

883
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: since we came across the Bearing Strait. But um, and

884
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: we're part of the ecosystem. But we can with with uh,

885
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: with thoughtfulness and with effort, we can manage things so

886
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: that these wildlife still can thrive, you know, in spite

887
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: of all the development and in the human interactions, and

888
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: so I I can't recommend that book enough. I love it,

889
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: and I think, as you know, especially for for myself

890
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: and other hunters listening like it is, it is exceptionally

891
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: important to understand the history of hunting in America, and

892
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: like we have this dark past that we have to

893
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: we have to recognize, we have to acknowledge, and we

894
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: have to think and keep that in mind as we

895
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: look at what we do today and making sure that

896
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: we don't ever fall prey to the same ah, I

897
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: don't want to say instincts, but the same, the same temptations.

898
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: I think that that drove a lot of what happened

899
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds can still pop into day to

900
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: day life today. It wasn't like not all, but many

901
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: of these folks that are part of this back in

902
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties, forties, sixties, seventies, whatever. It wasn't like

903
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: they were um, you know, um malevolent. It wasn't like

904
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: they're going out there trying to extrapate species. It wasn't

905
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: like they were going out there thinking that they were

906
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: destroying um buffalo populations. A lot of these folks were

907
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: out there just trying to get there's They're just like,

908
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: I just want to go out there have a good time,

909
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: or I just want to go out there and feed

910
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: my family, or I'm just gonna go out there and

911
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: try to make pay the bills. Right. They were all

912
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: just doing their thing, which is kind of what most

913
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: of us are still doing today. We're all just trying

914
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: to go out and have a good time or get

915
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: ours or fill our freezer today. But none of these

916
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: folks were able to zoom out enough to see what

917
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: was going on at the next level up the bigger

918
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: picture implications of millions of people all trying to do that.

919
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: And so today we're fortunate that there are, like you said,

920
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: there's game management practice at the state level, and nationally

921
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 1: there's different things, and and we have we have restrictions

922
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: and regulations, and we have a North American model of

923
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: conservation that has helped inform how we can do this,

924
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: but it also has to play out on the individual level.

925
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, having that historical foundation is

926
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: it's just this little thing that's in the back of

927
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: our minds. I think is is a is a useful

928
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: and important, an important kind of insight to have as

929
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: as a modern day hunter. Um, and I think this

930
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: book does a good job of providing that in a

931
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: way that's still enjoyable to read. So it's, uh, it's

932
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: right up there at the top of my list. Yeah,

933
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: I keep I keep that book like on my desk.

934
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: I put a bunch of them stacked up in front

935
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: of like in front of my computer when I'm working.

936
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: It is one that I keep set up and I

937
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: look at it all the time, just because it's a

938
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 1: very important book and it's just it was very eye

939
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 1: opening to me. I mean I learned stuff that now

940
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: it's second nature and it's it's just important facts that

941
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: that I considered just kind of standard facts. But at

942
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 1: the time when I read it, I had no idea

943
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: about it. Like about horses. Now they disappeared and then

944
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: came back. I mean it's so interesting. Yeah, highly highly recommended. Yeah,

945
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw to bonus kind of supplementary recommendations on

946
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: that one. If if anyone's read that book already and

947
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: enjoyed it, or if you read it and then you're like,

948
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 1: I still want more on this, you gotta read American

949
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 1: Buffalo by my Pale Steve Steve RENNELLI amazing, amazing book,

950
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: really fun read. You learned specifically about the history of Buffalo,

951
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: UM and you go on this great adventure with him.

952
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite books of all time. That's

953
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: a great one. And then another one called The Last

954
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: Stand Um by Michael Punke or Punk I can't remember

955
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 1: how you say his last name, but that is about

956
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: the history of Buffalo as well, but UM with a

957
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: more specific focus on the impact that George Bird Grinnell had,

958
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: who was another one of those guys who sits on

959
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: the conservation kind of Mount Rushmore there with Theodore Roosevelt

960
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: and Gifford pin Show. Um. George Berg Grannell was one

961
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: of the first editors of Field and Stree. Uh did

962
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: a did a ton and so you get to learn

963
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: about his story and his conservation impacts and and that's

964
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: really right within the same Um family of books. So

965
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: those are two others that are great. Yeah, I was

966
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking that exact same thing. Um. I was

967
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: flipping through it as you were talking and looking at

968
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: the Buffalo chapter in Steve's book, and Uh, I guess, Punky,

969
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: I guess that's how you said. But I've read both

970
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: of those books. I remember. I remember I got them

971
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 1: both from the library and Boulder when I still live there.

972
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: And um, again, just just eye opening and easy and

973
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 1: fun to read. So we're on the same page there,

974
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: all right, So what's your next one? I got another

975
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: one that's kind of kind of related to American Serengetti

976
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: is called Losing Eden, An Environmental History of the American West,

977
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: by Sarah Dance, doctor Sarah dan who is a history

978
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: professor at Webber State. I think it is it we

979
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: were Webber State, but I think I think it's Yeah,

980
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: it's like the opposite one. I think it should be

981
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: Weber State. And and Sarah uh is married to Dan

982
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: Flores and which I mean, that's a that's a power

983
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: couple if there was one. Yeah. But um, I met

984
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: Sarah at a event that I went to a few

985
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 1: years back, to my conference about the West, and she's

986
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: just she's super fun and obviously just sharp as a

987
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: web and um she I got a copy of her

988
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: book there and I read it and it's really just

989
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: it's relatively short. I mean, I think it's less than

990
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: two hundred pages, but it's just this broad overview of

991
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: the history of the American West, from kind of an

992
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: environmental slash conservation perspective. So it starts out talking about

993
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: the natural history a lot of the same things that

994
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: are covered in American Serengetti and about Native Americans, Um,

995
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, before European settlement. And one of the title

996
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: that Losing Eden, and one of the themes that she's

997
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: trying to get through, you know, over the course of

998
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: the book is that, um, there's this myth that when

999
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: white people showed up and started you know, quote settling

1000
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 1: the West, that they were going into this eating the

1001
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: garden of Eden and it was untouched in this beautiful,

1002
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: unspoiled wilderness. But what she lays out in a lot

1003
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: of different ways is that ever since humans have been

1004
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: in North America, it's never been a straight up eating

1005
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: I mean they're there have always been hunting grounds, and

1006
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: there's always been different forms of agriculture. And and while

1007
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 1: you know, obviously it was it was a lot closer

1008
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 1: to a Eden ten thousand years ago than it is

1009
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: is today. Um, she really is trying to bust this

1010
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: myth of of Eden. But you know, over the course

1011
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: two pages, she she lays out, um, you know, the

1012
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: Native American, Um, how they you know, how they hunted,

1013
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: and how they made the West a place where they

1014
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: could live even though they were the resources and the

1015
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 1: natural resources were were slim, you know, water and all

1016
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And then she talks about there

1017
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: there's a big portion of the book where she talks

1018
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: about UM the Mormon and how they played a really

1019
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: big role in the settlement of the West, and how

1020
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: they introduced um a lot of irrigation on large scale,

1021
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: and how they were able to kind of really stretch

1022
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: particularly water resources very thin to to um, you know,

1023
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 1: to to allow for a lot of people to thrive

1024
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: in a region where that's pretty harsh region. And then

1025
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: she there's one chapter where she talks about the difference

1026
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: between preservation and conservation, you know, conservationist versus preservationist. And

1027
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt was the kind of the the definition of

1028
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: a conservationist. Whereas, yeah, he wanted to use all the

1029
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: natural resources we had in North America UM in the

1030
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: most effective way possible. So Theodore Roosevelt is not necessarily hey,

1031
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: let's look at that big forest at hillside over there,

1032
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: Let's keep it a forest at hillside wherever. He was

1033
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: more in the mindset of right, there's a lot of

1034
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: timber over there that can help fuel the United States,

1035
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: and so let's consider this a renewable resource that we

1036
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: need to take care of. But you know, there's nothing

1037
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: wrong with cutting those trees down and then growing them back.

1038
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: Whereas John Murro was more along the lines of let's

1039
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: preserve this how it is, don't touch it, leave it

1040
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: completely as it is. And she doesn't really take a

1041
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: side one way or the other about which one's right,

1042
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: but really lays out out both sides of the argument,

1043
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: which I really appreciated. And then she goes through a

1044
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of booms and busts that make

1045
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: that have made up the history of the American West,

1046
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 1: whether that is the fur trappers in the very very

1047
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: early days, and this goes to a lot of things

1048
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: you were talking about in um in American Serengetti. You know,

1049
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 1: the fur trappers came out and basically eradicated all the beaver,

1050
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: all the different furs, and this has been the history

1051
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: of the West for about as long as white people

1052
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: have been around. We come in, extract resources until they're gone,

1053
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: and then leave, and so you could think about fur

1054
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: mining forestry. Now, energy is a big part of that,

1055
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: and she she just kind of digs into all the

1056
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 1: different um time periods and the different different things that

1057
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: have happened as as we people have have tried to

1058
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: kind of extract value from the landscape of the West,

1059
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: and then as we kind of learned our lesson and

1060
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: had to had to to balance things out a bit.

1061
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: And then she talks similar to like in your book.

1062
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 1: She she mentions a few of these names of historic

1063
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: people that I've heard forever, but I never really um

1064
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: known the details. But one that stuck out in my

1065
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: mind was she tells about Frank Church and he was

1066
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: a senator, and there's the Frank Church Wilderness I believe

1067
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: in Idaho. She talks about him and everything he did

1068
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: as far as the Wilderness Act, the wild and Scenic

1069
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: Rivers Act, and um. And then she kind of finishes

1070
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 1: up in modern day with a lot of the clashes

1071
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:50,479
Speaker 1: between industry and like the Endangered Species Act and so

1072
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:54,760
Speaker 1: again less than two hundred pages, but really really sets

1073
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: the gives you a good framework to go out and

1074
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: read different, you know, dig in a lot deeper. And

1075
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: it's kind of the perfect book as I mentioned, of

1076
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: allowing you to giving you this menu of really really

1077
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: interesting things at at kind of a high level, and

1078
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: then you can go dig in as needed. And she

1079
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,240
Speaker 1: has um suggested reading or further reading in every single chapter,

1080
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: so she even does that part of the work for you. Um.

1081
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: But really a great book and fits in well with

1082
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: your recommendation. Yeah, you know, I own that book, but

1083
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: I actually have not read it. I hate to admit, UM,

1084
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: but I was. I was gifted it like right after

1085
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: I finished writing mine, and I remember thinking that I

1086
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 1: was just kind of burnt out on the history of

1087
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: this stuff. Is like, it's probably all the same stuff

1088
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: I already just researched and wrote about. So I never

1089
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: ended up picking it back up again, and it's just

1090
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: sitting at the like in the bottom corner. And as

1091
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: you're describing this to me, you're making me realize what

1092
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: a mistake I made, because there's a number of things

1093
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: you mentioned in there that are are different than stuff

1094
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: I covered, or that dive into different avenues that I

1095
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: wish I had. UM. So, so I got to pick

1096
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: that up and dive into it. And and something you

1097
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: mentioned there that sounds like she led her book with

1098
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: is uh is the history of of the Native American

1099
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: perspective and and uh impact that they had on the

1100
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: land and how they were to live with the land,

1101
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: in the the ways that they worked the land, and

1102
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: this idea that you know, the myth I think that

1103
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: so long has been thought like you you said it right,

1104
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: they you read about Lewis and Clark coming across this

1105
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: untouched wilderness when actually there have been millions of people,

1106
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: millions of people living there for thousands of years, um,

1107
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: and we just kind of conveniently forget about that. Um.

1108
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: One of the greatest regrets I have with my book

1109
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: is that I didn't talk about that at all, UM.

1110
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: And I think that I just it wasn't It wasn't

1111
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: on purpose, it was it was more so like I

1112
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: didn't even I didn't know how to handle that. I

1113
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: didn't know how to dive into of that appropriately. Um.

1114
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: And And because of that, I think it just seemed

1115
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: like that just seemed like a totally other book for

1116
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: someone else, and I thought I could only butte off

1117
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: so much. UM. But in retrospect, I wish I had

1118
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: tried to at least at least cover it in some

1119
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: kind of way, because I think, unfortunately it's it's this

1120
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: big glaring black hole in the beginning of my book

1121
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: that I ignored completely and and I wish I had.

1122
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that that, you know, this is something

1123
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: that's being talked about more often and something of this

1124
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: book is a good place to to dig into that

1125
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: a little bit. So I'm definitely gonna check that out myself. Yeah,

1126
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: it's definitely worth a read. And it's not a you know,

1127
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: it's not a huge time investment. It's not like Wilderness Warrior,

1128
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: where you gotta you gotta really clear the calendar to

1129
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: to tackle that. I mean, it's it's and for you know,

1130
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: for somebody who specializes in academic writing, it's not at

1131
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: all an academic type book. I mean, I think it

1132
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: could be used as a textbook. But I enjoyed reading

1133
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: it and uh actually at Sarah on the podcast to

1134
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: talk about it, and so she's just very charismatic, very funny, um,

1135
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: very very wise when it comes to all these topics.

1136
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,919
Speaker 1: So yeah, I highly recommend it. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna

1137
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: put that back at the top of my list. Okay,

1138
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: next one for me. So if if my first recommendation

1139
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: was looking way back at um some of our historical

1140
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: crimes I guess to to the natural world here in America.

1141
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: My next book is a little further down that timeline

1142
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: to one of our awakenings, one of our kind of

1143
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,959
Speaker 1: ecological awakenings, uh to how we might do things better.

1144
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: And this book is a book I've talked about a

1145
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: million times in the podcast, and just recently, like two

1146
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: or three weeks ago, talked about in the podcast. So

1147
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: I'm not going to spend a lot of time because

1148
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: people have heard about it plenty of times before. But

1149
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: I couldn't have a podcast called the ten Books that

1150
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: all aspiring Conservationists should read and not mention a sand

1151
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 1: con The Almanac by Aldo Leopold. UM. I look at

1152
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: this as like a foundational text, Like anyone who who

1153
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: wants to do anything related to conservation or the natural

1154
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: world or or anything along those lines, just like has

1155
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: to read this. It's it just seems like required reading. Um.

1156
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: It's this text that really I think helps you know.

1157
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 1: It's kind of a three part book. It's sorts. The

1158
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: first part of the book is just a beautiful series

1159
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: of essays about Leopold's experiences in nature, working this little

1160
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: farm he had in Wisconsin, watching wildlife, UM, it's it's

1161
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: it's kind of easy fun reading. It's it's it's great

1162
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: to sit on the porch and kind of, you know,

1163
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: just kind of soak in these these great ideas and

1164
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: thoughts and experiences that al those A will put on

1165
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: the page. UM. I do think that through these short,

1166
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: simple essays he does like illuminate some interesting ideas and

1167
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: like a very powerful way. But you know, it's it's

1168
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: easy reading. UM. And it's all kind of that midwestern

1169
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: Wisconsin focused It's it kind of walks through month by

1170
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: month these different vignettes across the year on his little

1171
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: stand farm there, so so interesting. And then the next

1172
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: series of essays follows him on some of his travels

1173
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: across the continent, stuff that he experienced as a young

1174
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: man down in Arizona or New Mexico working for the

1175
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: US Force Service, things he did later in life. UM.

1176
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 1: Some really famous foundational essays like UM, Thinking like a Mountain,

1177
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: in which UM, he really really powerfully writes about the

1178
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:39,919
Speaker 1: challenges that we have had as people living and coexisting

1179
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: or trying to co exist with predators. UM. I think

1180
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: it's very poignant and a really important read for hunters. UM.

1181
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 1: That one in particular. UM. But again it's it's mostly

1182
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: stories about these experiences. But then you get to the

1183
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 1: third part. I think he calls this part like the

1184
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: up shot, and and this part of the book is

1185
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 1: where he really this like it's a good different thing.

1186
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: The second the third part of the book is like

1187
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: a different book almost, in which he kind of said, Okay,

1188
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: you read about these stories and experiences that kind of

1189
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: shaped who I am and why I care about things. Well,

1190
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: here's now how I make sense of what all that

1191
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: means to us moving forward. UM. And he has a

1192
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: series of I guess essays or chapters or something would

1193
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: be how you describe it, where he he dives into

1194
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 1: ideas around protecting wilderness and hunting and um outdoor recreation

1195
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: and how that impacts wild places and wild animals, and

1196
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: then finally diving into this whole idea of of a

1197
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: land ethic, which I think, is this this idea that

1198
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: has really defined a lot of what modern conservation is

1199
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: and how we think about things today. UM. And so

1200
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: I think, better than probably anyone before, he helps put

1201
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: words to a lot of ideas that many of us

1202
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: have felt or considered and helps kind of um focus

1203
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: a lot of these emotion is maybe we have to,

1204
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: so I won't. I won't rant anymore about sand kind

1205
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: of alminact because I've done that plenty. But uh, but

1206
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: I had to mention it. I don't know, would you

1207
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 1: add anything on that one? Is there anything that I

1208
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 1: missed there? I mean you've read it, right, yeah, And

1209
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: I think it's one of those books. It's it's like

1210
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: when when I had kids and you hear people they

1211
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 1: say all these things like, oh, they grow up so fast,

1212
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: all these cliches. I'm like, well, those things are cliches

1213
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: for a reason because they're percent true. And I feel

1214
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: like saying County Almanac. It comes up so often and

1215
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: on my podcast, you know, I have such a wide

1216
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: variety of guests, but I mean, just all the top

1217
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 1: of my head that there have been like some ultra

1218
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: professional athlete, ultra runners that mentioned it as one of

1219
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: the most important books they've ever been. There's a guy

1220
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: who was a lawyer in Chicago and read that book

1221
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: and quit his job and started a bison ranch in

1222
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: Montana because of that book. Um, you know, I've heard

1223
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 1: your buddy Steve Rinella talk about it. I've I've you know,

1224
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: I've got some art of these, you know, world famous

1225
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 1: Western artists. They talk about it, and so it's one

1226
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: of these things where everybody's talking about because it is

1227
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: that important and because it's it really is. Um. I

1228
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: think he took all these ideas that are floating around

1229
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: in people's heads and that people kind of knew these

1230
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 1: universal truths or truths about the land and in anybody

1231
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: who has spent um you know, connected to the land

1232
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 1: in one way or another, understands this stuff at a

1233
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: at a real base level, and he was able to

1234
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: put words to it. And so um, I mean, there's

1235
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 1: nothing I can add to all the great stuff that's

1236
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: been said about it other than if you haven't read it,

1237
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 1: you need to read it. It's not hard reading. You

1238
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: can you can crank through it. I've got like three

1239
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: copies of it in my in my little ship. I'll

1240
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: buy That's funny. You mentioned that I was at the

1241
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: Elder Leopold Foundation a couple of weeks ago, and I

1242
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,479
Speaker 1: saw all these different, you know, additions of the book

1243
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: and different covers and things like that from over the years,

1244
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: and I had this this urge is like, man, I

1245
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: gotta buy some of these other editions that I really

1246
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: like that cover this one, and then I thought that's

1247
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: kind of a aiculous to buy multiple copies. But at

1248
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: the same time, like, no, it's not. It's yeah, it's

1249
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: not so like is I don't know who's listening, but

1250
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 1: like I can tell you that's normal by by like

1251
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 1: ten of them, it's worth it. Um So, yeah, that's

1252
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: that's my next one. What's what's your next? Um So?

1253
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: My next one is it's called Down River, Into the

1254
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: Future of Water in the West by Heather Handsman who

1255
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 1: she is a journalist writer. She writes a lot for

1256
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: Outside magazine, and so in my daily work at palmer

1257
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: Land Conservacy, most of what I do is working with water.

1258
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: And it's funny because I'm from East North Carolina, where

1259
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: if anything, there's too much water, you know, every time

1260
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: a hurricane comes through, the whole town floods and so

1261
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: and then out here there's there's none. But one of

1262
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: the challenges that I found with water, even for somebody

1263
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: like me who that's my job, is it is unbelievably

1264
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 1: boring talking about water rights and you know, the doctrine

1265
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 1: of prior appropriation and all this kind of stuff, and

1266
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: water rights attorneys make tons of money because it is

1267
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: just such a complex and confusing subject that really it

1268
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense, but it kind of doesn't. There's

1269
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 1: a lot of gray area in there. And so there's

1270
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: this one book called Cadillac Desert, which a lot of

1271
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: people refer to as like the Bible of water in

1272
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: the West. And then there's Beyond the hundred Meridian by

1273
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 1: Wa Stegner, which is another great book that will help

1274
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 1: you kind of understand water. But if you want to

1275
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 1: get a good overview of water without having to invest,

1276
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 1: you know, months of your life into to reading all

1277
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: this really detailed stuff, Down River is the book, and

1278
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: it's in a lot of ways it reminds me of

1279
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: your book more because she's this adventure she has. So

1280
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,440
Speaker 1: she this Heather starts at the base of the Wind

1281
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: River mountain range the headwaters of the Green River and

1282
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 1: floats down mostly solo by ourselves, floats the whole length

1283
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 1: of the Green River down to where it the confluence

1284
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: with the Colorado River in Utah. And so that story

1285
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: is kind of the structure of the book. And along

1286
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 1: the way she examines all the different issues or challenges

1287
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 1: facing water in the West, and she gives you this education,

1288
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 1: and it's kind of a perfect book for somebody like

1289
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: me who doesn't want to read like hardcore just straight

1290
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 1: up history, but wants to learn. And she sneaks in

1291
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: all this really really interesting info and and so, you know,

1292
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: she she kind of hits all the different aspects of water,

1293
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: everything from you know, cities and how cities are taking

1294
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 1: water um, to outdoor recreation and what that means for water,

1295
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 1: to the to agriculture. You know that agriculture is a

1296
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 1: huge use of water in the West. We you know,

1297
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: divert water out of these streams, irrigate fields and then

1298
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 1: the water goes back in. Talk us about it from

1299
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: an ecological standpoint, particularly about fish um. But it's just

1300
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,560
Speaker 1: it's really fun and she's a she's very she's very funny.

1301
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: And one of the things I thought was cool unrelated

1302
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: water in this book is she talks a lot about

1303
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 1: how a lot of these books that feature women adventurers

1304
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: are you know, like one of the women, whoever the

1305
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 1: protagonist is, the woman who's going on this venture, has

1306
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 1: had some traumatic life experience and she's kind of like,

1307
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 1: all right, screw and I'm gonna go on this crazy adventure.

1308
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hike that pleach and trail or hip the

1309
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 1: Pacific Crest Trail. Whatever. But in her mind she says,

1310
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: I just want an adventure for the sake of adventure.

1311
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm not running from anything, I'm not trying to change

1312
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: my life. I just want to have a cool adventure

1313
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,839
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do this. And so if if anybody

1314
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,480
Speaker 1: is interested in water, and it is a endlessly fascinating subject,

1315
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, the whole West is a is a

1316
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: big plumbing system. Like my city of Colorado Springs sits

1317
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: on the front range of of Colorado sits on Colorado's

1318
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: front range on the east side, and we get eighty

1319
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,799
Speaker 1: percent of our drinking water from the Colorado River basin,

1320
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: which is on the western side of the continent or

1321
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 1: divide there. So the water is being pumped underneath the

1322
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: mountains to this city of five thousand people. And so,

1323
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,479
Speaker 1: you know, everybody talks about Las Vegas and Los Angeles

1324
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:58,600
Speaker 1: and how it depends on the Cold River, Well so

1325
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 1: does Colorado Springs. And um so, if you want to

1326
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: really understand conservation, particularly in the West, you have to

1327
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 1: have some understanding of water. And if you want to

1328
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 1: learn about water without being bored sinceless and actually being

1329
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 1: very highly entertained. That is the book. Man. That's good

1330
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,680
Speaker 1: to know. I've had that one in my on my

1331
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 1: Amazon booklist for a while now and I haven't committed

1332
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 1: to it yet, but it was, it's been in there.

1333
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 1: It's one of the one of those like I should

1334
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,840
Speaker 1: probably I should probably read that. I've been recommended a

1335
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 1: few times or I've seen it recommended a few times,

1336
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,600
Speaker 1: so I thought, I gotta do it someday, and I

1337
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 1: think this is the push to finally hit by UM.

1338
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 1: So I read another one this past summer. I can't

1339
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 1: remember what's called, and I think it's on my bookshelf

1340
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:46,600
Speaker 1: in Idaho, so I can't find it right now, but

1341
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: it's it's got this like orange and like orange and

1342
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 1: yellow and green like topographic map kind of cover. It's

1343
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: written by a guy named Dave something. Where the water goes.

1344
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 1: That's David. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good

1345
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,799
Speaker 1: one too. Yeah. I thought that one was pretty good. Um,

1346
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 1: But at times I wish the adventure was more of

1347
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: an adventure, Like I think that what you're describing with

1348
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:14,479
Speaker 1: Heather's trip would have pulled me along and I would

1349
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: have had more fun with it. Um, So I think

1350
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: I want to dive in further and go on that

1351
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: journey too. Yeah. Heather's great, and I'm not trying to

1352
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 1: like shamelessly promote my podcast, but I've had her own twice,

1353
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:27,720
Speaker 1: once for this book and then once for a new

1354
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 1: book she wrote about ski towns and their impact on

1355
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,840
Speaker 1: the West, and she she's just super, super cool and

1356
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 1: and obviously extremely talented writers. So um yeah, people ask

1357
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:40,120
Speaker 1: me all the time about water, and that's the one

1358
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 1: I tell them to read. Yeah. Man, that's my favorite

1359
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: kind of book, and that's why I wrote the book

1360
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 1: I wrote, and why I want to write more books

1361
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 1: like that. I think it's like a super like that

1362
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: kind of book. And my this is my opinion, just

1363
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: my opinion, but that is just such a great format

1364
01:10:57,400 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 1: if you can take some And maybe it's just because

1365
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 1: this is what I'd like to read, so maybe I'm

1366
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: completely wrong, but I love with I love reading a

1367
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:06,320
Speaker 1: book that takes you on an adventure. You're gonna have fun,

1368
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:09,679
Speaker 1: you're gonna live vicariously through this person, and then along

1369
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 1: the way they slip in all this fascinating information that

1370
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,479
Speaker 1: you you come out the other side having learned a

1371
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:18,799
Speaker 1: bunch too. I mean, that is just like the ultimate

1372
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 1: combination for me. It's just such a such a great

1373
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 1: kind of book to read. I could just if what's

1374
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 1: interesting that there's there's so many topics where I find myself,

1375
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 1: like in a bookstore or looking online, thinking I really

1376
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: wish there was a book that would take you like

1377
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: down this thing or to do this thing, and then

1378
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:37,719
Speaker 1: I could learn about it. And I keep on finding

1379
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 1: that there's not books about those topics or in those places,

1380
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 1: and so I have this long running list of all

1381
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 1: these books now that I feel like I need to

1382
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 1: write because I want to read this book, and I

1383
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: want to read this book, and I want to read

1384
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 1: this one. No one's done it yet, so I feel

1385
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:52,600
Speaker 1: like I guess I need to do that. So I

1386
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 1: have this long list. You definitely need to do it. Um,

1387
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 1: but you mentioned American Buffalo. I think that's kind of

1388
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 1: the great exam ample that you know, this cool hunting

1389
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: adventure in a wild place, and then when you get

1390
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 1: done with you're like, wow, now I have all this

1391
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: these facts and figures about buffalo that I never knew before.

1392
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's for me, I think we're

1393
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,639
Speaker 1: wired pretty similarly when it comes to our reading taste.

1394
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 1: But like there's nothing better than that, And so I think,

1395
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:19,680
Speaker 1: and I think with anything, whether it's a business or

1396
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 1: a podcast or or writing, like you want to be

1397
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 1: scratching your own itch, you know, and so like if

1398
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 1: that's what you want to read, there's there's you know,

1399
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:29,800
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of other people out there who would

1400
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 1: want to read it as well. So as I've told you,

1401
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 1: you need to just keep writing. It's so it's soundly

1402
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: to do list. It's definitely on the to do list. Um, okay.

1403
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 1: So I've got another recommendation that kind of falls in

1404
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 1: line with them, and that it is it's kind of

1405
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: one of these books where you you go on a

1406
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: series of trips and you don't even realize that you're

1407
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 1: really learning a ton along the way. And this is

1408
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 1: like the most sneaky of those types of books. Um.

1409
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: It's called Encounters with the Arch or the Arc jur

1410
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 1: I don't Arch Steward or archcharg Archward by John McPhee.

1411
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:05,680
Speaker 1: Have you read this one? Yeah? I read it and

1412
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 1: it was like it blew my mind. I read it.

1413
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 1: So I read it probably twelve years ago something like that.

1414
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:12,680
Speaker 1: I was so glad to see that you were going

1415
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 1: to recommend this book is phenomenal. UM. So John McPhee

1416
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 1: is one of our He's an absolute icon of nonfiction

1417
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:27,440
Speaker 1: writing in America. I mean, he's he's pretty well recognized

1418
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:29,640
Speaker 1: as one of the very very very best to have

1419
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:34,480
Speaker 1: to have ever done it. Um. He's a frequent contributor

1420
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: to The New Yorker and written a ton of books

1421
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: and every one of them is just like beloved UM.

1422
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: And he he just has this wonderful way of examining

1423
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 1: seemingly very very random topics and making them interesting and

1424
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 1: making them both worth reading and learning about. UM. I mean,

1425
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 1: he's written about oranges, He's written about Chad. I think

1426
01:13:56,400 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 1: he's written about I mean, just bizarre things. But just

1427
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: like one tennis match, he wrote a whole book about

1428
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,320
Speaker 1: a single tennis match, and then you read it, you're like, wow,

1429
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,559
Speaker 1: it's incredible. So this book, though, is is this book

1430
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 1: he wrote that really does an interesting job of examining

1431
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:21,719
Speaker 1: the conservation and environmental movement and I think a series

1432
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 1: of philosophies, and he examines this larger topic by zooming

1433
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,559
Speaker 1: in on one person in a series of experiences. This

1434
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 1: person had a very influential person in the sixties and

1435
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:36,680
Speaker 1: seventies and and really before that even um. And so

1436
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 1: this book, the author, John McPhee goes on a series

1437
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 1: of trips with a guy named David Brower, who was

1438
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 1: who who is or sorry was a very famous and

1439
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:52,120
Speaker 1: influential environmentalist conservationist. He headed up the Sierra Club at

1440
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: one point, uh, Friends of the Earth at one point

1441
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 1: maybe Earth First. I'm gonna I should have had this

1442
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 1: written down. Um. But was one of the main main

1443
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:04,679
Speaker 1: voices for a lot of these important environmental issues back

1444
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies. He was one of those

1445
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 1: major faces of the movement back then. Um. Sometimes controversially,

1446
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: Um he was. You know, he took things pretty far

1447
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:18,840
Speaker 1: in some instances, but he did plenty of good and um.

1448
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 1: This book follows John along with David Brower on three

1449
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 1: different experiences of sorts where he is paired up with

1450
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:32,880
Speaker 1: someone who feels very differently about these things. And so

1451
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 1: what you end up getting is this very interesting examination

1452
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 1: of the push and pull between the conservation of natural

1453
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:45,680
Speaker 1: resources in wild places versus the use of them. And

1454
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 1: so I think it's I think it's a really helpful

1455
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 1: thing for anyone to do who cares about these things,

1456
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 1: who wants to be an advocate, because I think we

1457
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 1: need to understand and look at these things from all

1458
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 1: points of view. And I think you do yourself a

1459
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:04,360
Speaker 1: dis service if you go into any kind of conservation

1460
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:06,559
Speaker 1: issue and only look at it from your point of view.

1461
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:07,920
Speaker 1: If I were to go and if I were to

1462
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: think about, Okay, the Boundary Waters are an incredibly special place.

1463
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 1: I loved hunting there, I love canoeing there, and damn it,

1464
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:16,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do anything to keep them as they are.

1465
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,640
Speaker 1: I think that's a place. I think that's something a

1466
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 1: lot of us can relate to. But I think it

1467
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:24,839
Speaker 1: is useful if you want to fight for those places,

1468
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 1: to also be thinking about what are the folks that

1469
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,760
Speaker 1: work at minds think about? What do the people who

1470
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 1: depend on those jobs think about? What's their point of

1471
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: view in this You know, I think it's oftentimes better

1472
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: not to just demonize folks on the other side, but

1473
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:43,240
Speaker 1: try to understand them, because that might help us get

1474
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,840
Speaker 1: to a a better place. In this book, in a

1475
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:50,559
Speaker 1: very sneaky way, does that, And in no way in

1476
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 1: this book does John McPhee really take a stance on anything,

1477
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:57,320
Speaker 1: or advocate for anything or push anything on you. Instead,

1478
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 1: you are just like a fly on the wall. As

1479
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 1: you follow this character David Brower on these trips with

1480
01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: these kind of confrontational people or people that he has

1481
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 1: confrontations with different sorts, um, and they kind of go

1482
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 1: back and forth on all these different things, and somehow

1483
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 1: you come out the other side of this book, you know,

1484
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 1: really in a different place. So the first part of

1485
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 1: the book follows Brower on a trip into a newly

1486
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:31,360
Speaker 1: designated wilderness area in Washington with a geologist and mining engineer.

1487
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:36,600
Speaker 1: I think the guy's name was Charles Parker something like that. UM.

1488
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: And so you they're they're on this trip, they're hiking

1489
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:42,320
Speaker 1: and backpacking through this wilderness area while also you're you're

1490
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 1: learning about Brower's history, You're learning about some of these

1491
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:49,320
Speaker 1: early stories of the environmental movement. And then you're hearing

1492
01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:53,720
Speaker 1: Brower and then this mining engineer debating whether or not

1493
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:56,760
Speaker 1: there should be a new mind put into this wilderness area.

1494
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 1: There was, there was a mind that was being proposed there.

1495
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 1: They're working on starting to survey it and do all

1496
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,519
Speaker 1: this stuff. And so you're you're kind of getting this

1497
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,080
Speaker 1: back and forth push and pull between these two guys

1498
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 1: who have very different views on what should happen here. Um.

1499
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 1: And then also sometimes they have similar views on what

1500
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:16,519
Speaker 1: should happen there. So again you kind of go on

1501
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 1: this adventure with them while you get a two sided

1502
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 1: conversation happening between two people, UM on this just tough topic,

1503
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:30,759
Speaker 1: and you never McPhee is just a master at doing

1504
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,519
Speaker 1: this in a way that you don't realize it's happening.

1505
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: It's just like you're you're like a parrot on the

1506
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:39,679
Speaker 1: shoulder on this adventure and it all seems so natural

1507
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 1: through dialogue and back and forth between these guys. Um,

1508
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:45,599
Speaker 1: I wish I could somehow do what he does, because

1509
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 1: really he does it better than anybody else. But the

1510
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:49,719
Speaker 1: first part of the book is this, this backpacking trip

1511
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 1: into the wilderness. The second part of the book follows

1512
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 1: Brauer out to Hilton Head Island in South Carolina, where

1513
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 1: he tours what's going on here in the island. This

1514
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 1: is back in you know, I don't remember, and these

1515
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 1: or eighties or something like that with a developer and

1516
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:08,519
Speaker 1: this developers wanting to you know, Um, he's wanting to build.

1517
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:10,639
Speaker 1: He's wanting to plan what's going to happen on this island.

1518
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:12,599
Speaker 1: Where can we build houses and where can we do things?

1519
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: And so it's it's this idea. Now we're exploring the

1520
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:18,839
Speaker 1: push and pull between the conservation and preservation of places

1521
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:22,679
Speaker 1: versus development, and is there a way to responsibly develop

1522
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 1: and plan development in ways that's better than others? And

1523
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: so you're you're getting that push and pull here. So

1524
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: that the first one between the push and pull of

1525
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:34,799
Speaker 1: wilderness and resource extraction, the second part of the push

1526
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 1: for preservation and preservation versus development, and then the third

1527
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,120
Speaker 1: book or sorry, the third part of the book follows

1528
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 1: Brauer on a rafting trip down the Grand Canyon with

1529
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: Floyd Domini, who was the commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation, which,

1530
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: as you know and anyone who knows water, is the

1531
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 1: government agency that manages our dams and water resources and

1532
01:19:56,600 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 1: things like that. So Domini is is kind of he

1533
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 1: was viewed as a as a villain of sorts back

1534
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 1: in the day because of his um you know, his

1535
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: his part in damning the Colorado River, putting up the

1536
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 1: Glen Canyon damn and a series of others UM that

1537
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 1: I even wrote about in my book UM, where basically,

1538
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:23,880
Speaker 1: basically you've got the guy who represents the oh for

1539
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 1: better for lack of a better term, like the rapacious

1540
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:32,439
Speaker 1: use of water versus browers ideas of keeping these rivers

1541
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 1: running free and wild, and Floyd Domines saying no, we've

1542
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 1: got to use these rivers. We need to, we need

1543
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:42,400
Speaker 1: to bridle them for human use and energy. And so

1544
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:45,679
Speaker 1: you have this back and forth between those two while

1545
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 1: on this trip. So what's interesting in each one of

1546
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 1: these is that you have this confrontation like one side

1547
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:57,439
Speaker 1: versus the other, conservation versus use, preservation versus development, um,

1548
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 1: wilderness versus resource extracts, and you've got these confrontations. But

1549
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:06,280
Speaker 1: also in each one of these situations, you also are

1550
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 1: getting to be this fly on the wall of these

1551
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 1: two people who seemingly in each instance seemed to be

1552
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 1: so far on either side, actually realizing they have a

1553
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 1: lot in common along the way to UM and coming

1554
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 1: out the other side. I think it it's both inspiring,

1555
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:25,559
Speaker 1: it's kind of informing of how we might be able

1556
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 1: to think about these things. You do learn some really

1557
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:30,640
Speaker 1: interesting stuff about the history of some of the environmental

1558
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 1: and conservation movement back in the fifties and sixties and seventies. Um,

1559
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: And you get to go on these very interesting adventures.

1560
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 1: You get to backpack into the wilderness of Washington, you

1561
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 1: get to float the Grand Canyon. Um So it's it's

1562
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 1: a fun read in that regard. You learn some interesting things.

1563
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 1: You kind of have to mentally push through these like

1564
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 1: tensions that I think are still present today in different forms,

1565
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:55,479
Speaker 1: but the same push and pull between those two different

1566
01:21:55,520 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 1: things are still going today. And uh, it's like a short,

1567
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:04,200
Speaker 1: quick book that actually covers a massive, massively important topic.

1568
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:07,880
Speaker 1: UM So that's a long winded, rambling way of saying,

1569
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 1: you gotta read this one. No, that's I agree with

1570
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 1: all that, and I think it's um I think that

1571
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:16,200
Speaker 1: book in some ways I hadn't really thought about it

1572
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 1: until just now, but it's it could be seen as

1573
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,640
Speaker 1: more important now than ever because people just seem to

1574
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:25,639
Speaker 1: be so divided across no matter what the issue is. Ums.

1575
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 1: People just kind of hold up in their camp and

1576
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 1: they're not interested in listening to the other side. And

1577
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you think about it's probably hard to really understand,

1578
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 1: but how polar opposite Browler is from these three guys

1579
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:40,960
Speaker 1: that he goes on trips with. I mean, it's it's

1580
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 1: the equivalent of like if you took somebody from that

1581
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:49,120
Speaker 1: that organization called c Shepherd that smashes into uh smashes

1582
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:51,360
Speaker 1: into whaling boats and and made him go on a

1583
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 1: camping trip at the CEO of a whaling a whaling company.

1584
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,519
Speaker 1: And but but I mean, I think it speaks to

1585
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:02,880
Speaker 1: the importance of conversation, the importance of curiosity, and the

1586
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 1: importance of really trying to understand what you know quote

1587
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:08,720
Speaker 1: the other side is thinking. And I'm I think you

1588
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 1: are to A big fan of Adam Grant, the Professor

1589
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:14,679
Speaker 1: and and I read it recently, read his book Think Again,

1590
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:17,680
Speaker 1: and he's always he talks about how if you approach

1591
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:21,520
Speaker 1: things that maybe you don't agree with with with curiosity

1592
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:25,639
Speaker 1: instead of just like bolstering your opinion and refusing to budge,

1593
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 1: but really trying to understand what the other side, where

1594
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:31,000
Speaker 1: the other side is coming from. You know, I think,

1595
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:33,800
Speaker 1: best case, you might learn something and maybe adjust your

1596
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:38,200
Speaker 1: views a little bit. Worst case, you keep your same views,

1597
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:40,519
Speaker 1: and you you are you, You're more confident in what

1598
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,479
Speaker 1: you already think. And I feel like this is a

1599
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:45,519
Speaker 1: perfect example. I mean, you think if you, no matter

1600
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 1: what the issue is, if you took some money on

1601
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:49,160
Speaker 1: the other side and you had to go on a

1602
01:23:49,200 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 1: three day backpacking trip with them, like, you'd probably end

1603
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:55,200
Speaker 1: up realizing that you have a lot more in common

1604
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:58,840
Speaker 1: than you don't. And so, um, I think, Uh, I

1605
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:00,880
Speaker 1: remember when I just stump it across that book in

1606
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 1: the bookstore a long time ago and read it, and

1607
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:05,439
Speaker 1: I was like, this sounds like one of the coolest

1608
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:08,400
Speaker 1: things I've I've ever seen, and it is. I mean

1609
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:10,760
Speaker 1: I I think about it often, so I think that's

1610
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,439
Speaker 1: a great recommendation. Yeah, it's one that you know, I

1611
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 1: feel like you don't hear about a whole lot anymore.

1612
01:24:16,160 --> 01:24:18,640
Speaker 1: It's it's not one that gets prot um, but I

1613
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:20,760
Speaker 1: think it I think it deserves to be. It Really,

1614
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:25,360
Speaker 1: it's the slim little book that I feel it really

1615
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:27,800
Speaker 1: encapsulates a whole lot more than I think maybe it's

1616
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 1: given credit for. So it's uh, it's worth reading. I

1617
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 1: agree completely. Alright, my turn, Yeah, what do you got? Alright?

1618
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:40,240
Speaker 1: So this may not come off as conservation at first,

1619
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,719
Speaker 1: but for me personally, it was. It was really created

1620
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:45,840
Speaker 1: a foundational shift in the way I think about things,

1621
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:48,799
Speaker 1: and I think it connects in well with your American

1622
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:52,000
Speaker 1: Serengetti recommendation, as it seems like almost all these books do.

1623
01:24:52,760 --> 01:24:56,120
Speaker 1: But uh, it's called for the Love of Land, Global

1624
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:59,839
Speaker 1: Case Studies of Grazing in Nature's Image by Jim Howell.

1625
01:25:00,400 --> 01:25:03,679
Speaker 1: And on the surface and by the title and subtitle,

1626
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,200
Speaker 1: what appears to be just a book about ranching. And

1627
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:07,760
Speaker 1: so you may be thinking, well, I don't I don't

1628
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 1: care about ranching, or I don't want to know anything

1629
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 1: about ranching. But what this book does is it basically

1630
01:25:13,720 --> 01:25:17,920
Speaker 1: lays out the importance of grazing for grasslands and for

1631
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 1: grassland health and the need for grazing and how grazing

1632
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 1: can be used to make grasslands more healthy. And so

1633
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, I used to be in

1634
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:31,120
Speaker 1: the ranch brokerage business and now a lot of my

1635
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:34,800
Speaker 1: conservation work is working with ranchers to to help them

1636
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:36,920
Speaker 1: conserve their property. And when you're out here in the West,

1637
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:38,680
Speaker 1: you know, you're up there in the big mountains, and

1638
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:40,960
Speaker 1: pretty much anytime you look down in a valley that

1639
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:43,360
Speaker 1: that is, for the most part is private land um

1640
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:45,160
Speaker 1: and a lot you know, the vast majority of it

1641
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:48,960
Speaker 1: that's still intact is being used um as as grazing

1642
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 1: land and grasslands throughout the entire world are one of

1643
01:25:53,240 --> 01:25:58,040
Speaker 1: the biggest um ways to sequest or carbon um. You know,

1644
01:25:58,439 --> 01:26:00,479
Speaker 1: it's right there, right up there, and my even be

1645
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:02,560
Speaker 1: more I should know this. But then the then the

1646
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 1: rainforest as far as sucking in carbon and and helping

1647
01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:09,599
Speaker 1: to keep the you know, keep carbon levels at at

1648
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 1: their normal rate. And so basically what Jim does this

1649
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,719
Speaker 1: book is is split up into two verse two two halves.

1650
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 1: The first half is kind of like a natural history

1651
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 1: of North America combined with um talking about the history

1652
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:26,800
Speaker 1: of grasses and the natural history of grasses. The second

1653
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: half is really case studies about how he's implemented this

1654
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 1: this work that he does. But basically he lays out

1655
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:38,240
Speaker 1: how grass, lank, grasses and ruminants evolved together and one

1656
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:41,679
Speaker 1: cannot exist without the other. And so as grasses grow,

1657
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,439
Speaker 1: they need to be grazed, and then they need to

1658
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:48,000
Speaker 1: have herds of large animals that have hoofs come over

1659
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:52,280
Speaker 1: and disturb the grasslands, pee and poop on it, tear

1660
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 1: it up, eat it down, eat the grass down, and

1661
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:58,439
Speaker 1: then move on to another area. And by doing that,

1662
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 1: the grasses thrived, and that's what they that's what they

1663
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:04,320
Speaker 1: evolved to do, and and so you can, you know,

1664
01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:06,800
Speaker 1: in private land, you can actually mimic that with certain

1665
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:09,320
Speaker 1: grazing techniques. But one of the things that stuck with

1666
01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 1: me about it is how a lot of nowadays, I

1667
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:15,040
Speaker 1: think there's some movement where I guess there has been

1668
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:17,680
Speaker 1: for quite a while, that that cattle are bad and

1669
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:20,200
Speaker 1: that grazing is bad, and we need fake meat, we

1670
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:25,200
Speaker 1: don't need regular meat anymore. Um. And what he lays

1671
01:27:25,200 --> 01:27:28,720
Speaker 1: out here very clearly is how grassland health is directly

1672
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:31,680
Speaker 1: related to how it is grazed. And he does all

1673
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:33,960
Speaker 1: these case studies, like he goes down the southwest. I

1674
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 1: think it may be near Canyon Lands National Park, and

1675
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:39,640
Speaker 1: he shows this photo and there's a fence line and

1676
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 1: on one side is the national park where no grazing

1677
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 1: is allowed, and this is a very arid environment, and

1678
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 1: on the other side is a private ranch where grazing

1679
01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:51,920
Speaker 1: is allowed. And on the no grazing side it looks

1680
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:54,479
Speaker 1: like a desert. It looks like the typical desert that

1681
01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 1: you think of when you think of that. And then

1682
01:27:56,479 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: on the grazing private land side, is this lush grass

1683
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:04,840
Speaker 1: that has been UM, that's healthy, that prevents erosion, UM

1684
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:07,479
Speaker 1: keeps moisture on the ground, the little moisture that there is.

1685
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,679
Speaker 1: And that is because that that side where the grazing

1686
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 1: has happened, has been grazed very intentionally over a very

1687
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 1: long period of time, whereas the other the grasses just died.

1688
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:21,000
Speaker 1: And this, this book, it really helped me. It really

1689
01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:25,559
Speaker 1: kind of nailed home this idea that livestock can be

1690
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 1: if used properly, it is great for the land. And

1691
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:32,800
Speaker 1: you know what, you know, for better or worse, or

1692
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:35,160
Speaker 1: maybe neither, it's just how it is. We are never

1693
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:37,760
Speaker 1: going back to the days of wide open spaces out here.

1694
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:41,720
Speaker 1: You know, there's private property, there's fences, and so in

1695
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:45,280
Speaker 1: order to keep the grasses as healthy as they can be,

1696
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 1: the really the only way to do it is to

1697
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:52,440
Speaker 1: use livestock. And so this book lays out specific techniques.

1698
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:54,559
Speaker 1: But and and so you can go a is in

1699
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:57,599
Speaker 1: depth as you want to the techniques of how this happens.

1700
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:00,120
Speaker 1: And he lays out case studies everywhere from rand Is

1701
01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:04,479
Speaker 1: in Colorado to sub Saharan Africa. But I think what

1702
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:08,640
Speaker 1: really stuck with me is just how hoo of the

1703
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:13,679
Speaker 1: animals that eat grass or linked to grasslands forever and

1704
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:15,559
Speaker 1: we need to have the two together. And Jim has

1705
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:18,200
Speaker 1: actually been on my podcast several times talking about all

1706
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 1: this stuff, as has his wife, whose name is Danielle Howell,

1707
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:24,920
Speaker 1: who's the CEO of US the Savory Institute, which UM

1708
01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: really implements a lot of this holistic range management work.

1709
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 1: But I think, as you know, as we talk about

1710
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 1: public and private lands and grazing on on both, this

1711
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:37,720
Speaker 1: is a great book to kind of get you up

1712
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:40,120
Speaker 1: to speed on that topic. And it was. It was

1713
01:29:40,240 --> 01:29:44,679
Speaker 1: very formative to me. Yeah, it's interesting. I I don't

1714
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:49,519
Speaker 1: have a like a direct touch point to grazing, like

1715
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:53,519
Speaker 1: I don't have UM obviously experienced with that. But when

1716
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 1: I worked on the back Forward A project, I I

1717
01:29:56,160 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 1: dove deep into a lot of ideas around regenerative agriculture

1718
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:03,920
Speaker 1: UM and and the ways that can be implemented, you know,

1719
01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:06,799
Speaker 1: on a smaller scale with food plots and growing crops

1720
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 1: and things for wildlife. Right, and that's like very very

1721
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:13,519
Speaker 1: adjacent or you know, basically it's it's part of you know,

1722
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 1: the regenera of agriculture, ideas of grasslands and grazing and

1723
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:18,920
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. So I ended up learning

1724
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 1: a lot about that and was really fascinated by it.

1725
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot to it and and understanding, you know,

1726
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:29,800
Speaker 1: better more natural ways to manage grasslands or grow either

1727
01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 1: growing grass or crops, I mean, finding natural ways to

1728
01:30:33,439 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 1: mimic nature, finding ways to work with nature versus fighting it,

1729
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:42,439
Speaker 1: um so often leads to better outcomes for everything, um,

1730
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:45,840
Speaker 1: whether it be the health of grass or the production

1731
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 1: or um, you know what, what you can actually get

1732
01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 1: off the get off of a ten acre plot of corn.

1733
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 1: So um. Yeah, highly recommend diving into that topic in

1734
01:30:56,520 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 1: general because there's a lot of stuff there that is

1735
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 1: actually relevant even to white hill hunters that managed land too.

1736
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 1: So interesting stuff definitely, And this this book, I believe

1737
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 1: he's got tons of uh, you know, further reading and

1738
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, and you can go deep down

1739
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:13,760
Speaker 1: like the Alan Savory Holistic management. I mean, there's just

1740
01:31:14,360 --> 01:31:17,280
Speaker 1: unbelievable amounts of information about there but out there about

1741
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:21,920
Speaker 1: this topic. But for me particularly the first half of

1742
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 1: that book was very eye opening too to the whole

1743
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:42,280
Speaker 1: concept of regenerative agriculture. It's it's interesting stuff. Okay, next

1744
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:47,640
Speaker 1: one for me, I'm I'm gonna go to well, I

1745
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:49,800
Speaker 1: guess if I first started by saying, let's look back,

1746
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,760
Speaker 1: which was the American Serendetti, and then I moved us

1747
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,439
Speaker 1: forward a little bit to like the awaking of an

1748
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: of an ecological consciousness with the Sand County Almanac. Then

1749
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,760
Speaker 1: with uh McPhee, we kind of then moved into the

1750
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:06,040
Speaker 1: sixties and the seventies and understanding the push and pull

1751
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:12,719
Speaker 1: between conservation or preservation versus use UM and development and extraction. UM.

1752
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 1: Now I want to look into the future with a

1753
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:21,439
Speaker 1: book called The Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth Colbert. And this

1754
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:24,000
Speaker 1: book and a series of other kind of related books

1755
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:29,519
Speaker 1: that I mentioned to UM talk about this this crisis

1756
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:34,880
Speaker 1: of sorts that's been going on slightly under the radar. UM.

1757
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:39,160
Speaker 1: That's that's that's becoming more and more UM obvious, I think.

1758
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:44,759
Speaker 1: And that is this this serious bio diversity crash across

1759
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:48,400
Speaker 1: the world, even here in America. UM. Basically, this book,

1760
01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:53,640
Speaker 1: The Sixth Extinction examines five major mass extinction events that

1761
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:55,800
Speaker 1: have occurred on Earth up to now. There have been

1762
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:59,880
Speaker 1: five big moments of history where there's been dramatic crash

1763
01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:04,519
Speaker 1: is in animal populations across the world, and now there

1764
01:33:04,520 --> 01:33:06,760
Speaker 1: has been a sixth We're in the beginning of a

1765
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:12,160
Speaker 1: sixth mass extinction event. Over the last you know, decades, UM,

1766
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:15,760
Speaker 1: there have been a disproportionately high number of animal species

1767
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:18,040
Speaker 1: disappearing off the face of the earth, faster than ever

1768
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:20,880
Speaker 1: before in the millions of years other than these five

1769
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:23,479
Speaker 1: other events. And so what the author does in this

1770
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:25,760
Speaker 1: book is takes the first part of the book and

1771
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 1: examines the history of these past events and how scientists

1772
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 1: discover them and what we can learn from them, stuff

1773
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:37,639
Speaker 1: like the dinosaurs, stuff like, um, you know, the Pleistocene animals, mammoths,

1774
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:40,160
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Um. So we we get some

1775
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:43,720
Speaker 1: very interesting like big history. But then the next part

1776
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:46,639
Speaker 1: of the book she then explores like what's happening now,

1777
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 1: how are we losing these animals? Why are we losing

1778
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:52,760
Speaker 1: these animals? What's being done about it? Um? What's going

1779
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:55,439
Speaker 1: on here? So she travels to the rainforests in South

1780
01:33:55,479 --> 01:33:59,800
Speaker 1: America and coral reefs and uh, different places all over

1781
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 1: the world and and examines and explores this issue UM

1782
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:06,920
Speaker 1: in a way that I think is pretty pretty illuminating

1783
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 1: in an important I think this is like one of

1784
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:11,479
Speaker 1: those big, big things like you hear a lot about,

1785
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 1: and for better or worse like that, it's become politicized

1786
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:18,760
Speaker 1: global global warming, climate change, whatever you want to say

1787
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:22,720
Speaker 1: about that. It's Unford's become a polarizing issue. But but

1788
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:28,000
Speaker 1: this whole other and related crisis of of bio diversity

1789
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:31,839
Speaker 1: and extinctions across the world, this is something that's that's

1790
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:34,880
Speaker 1: just as important and tied very much along with that,

1791
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 1: and um, this book is is probably the best one

1792
01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:41,400
Speaker 1: I've found that that dives into this um and I

1793
01:34:41,439 --> 01:34:44,679
Speaker 1: think it's something that as somebody who hunts and fishes,

1794
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:47,920
Speaker 1: if you care about animals and you care about fish,

1795
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 1: and you care about wild places, this whole disappearance of

1796
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:55,320
Speaker 1: of animals across the country and the world is has

1797
01:34:55,360 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 1: got to be concerning. And there's so many animals that

1798
01:34:58,120 --> 01:35:01,559
Speaker 1: you know, you learn about and to hear about um

1799
01:35:01,640 --> 01:35:03,559
Speaker 1: that might not be here five from years from now,

1800
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 1: or twenty years from now or ten years from now,

1801
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:09,080
Speaker 1: and that's having kids now. For some reason, that just

1802
01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:12,400
Speaker 1: seems like so much more tragic when I think about

1803
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:15,360
Speaker 1: the fact that there's you know, a hundred of these

1804
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:19,400
Speaker 1: leopards left, or there's fifty of these or there's seven

1805
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,719
Speaker 1: hundred of these and thinking like, gosh, my kids won't

1806
01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:28,880
Speaker 1: even know about this someday. Um And and that's that's

1807
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:38,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seems it's it's seems morally, I

1808
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 1: don't even know what the right word is. I don't know.

1809
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 1: It just seems really damn wrong. And um And I

1810
01:35:44,040 --> 01:35:47,839
Speaker 1: wish and I hope and I and I and I

1811
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:52,040
Speaker 1: aspire to hopefully someday be able to see that change

1812
01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:53,679
Speaker 1: in some kind of way. I don't know if it will,

1813
01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:56,640
Speaker 1: but but I guess reading about it, learning about it

1814
01:35:56,640 --> 01:35:59,519
Speaker 1: is a step one. So this book does a pretty

1815
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 1: good job at you and that I will say it's

1816
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:03,599
Speaker 1: it's a little bit I don't want to say it's

1817
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:07,680
Speaker 1: dense dense, um, but its denser than some of the

1818
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,599
Speaker 1: others um. And it's not all focused on like big

1819
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:15,120
Speaker 1: charismatic animals, So I think it's I think it's easy

1820
01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:17,599
Speaker 1: to like dive into this topic and read about like

1821
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:21,120
Speaker 1: a Sumatran rhinoceros and how that's disappearing and like care

1822
01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:23,040
Speaker 1: about that. It's a little bit harder when you're learning

1823
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:27,040
Speaker 1: about a little frog or something, which she talks about two. Um.

1824
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:29,880
Speaker 1: But but I would encourage folks to give it a shot.

1825
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 1: I listened to a lot of this one. This is

1826
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 1: a good book to listen to. UM. I got through

1827
01:36:34,080 --> 01:36:36,519
Speaker 1: a lot of it through that avenue. I'd recommend that

1828
01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:38,720
Speaker 1: if if this sounds like a book that maybe you're

1829
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 1: intimidated by because of what I was saying here, UM,

1830
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 1: maybe try listening to it. UM. There's another couple of

1831
01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:47,799
Speaker 1: books along these lines, one called Half Earth by EO. Wilson,

1832
01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:51,639
Speaker 1: another one called Rescuing the Planet by Tony Hiss, which

1833
01:36:51,720 --> 01:36:57,040
Speaker 1: also talk about this issue and um some proposed ideas

1834
01:36:57,040 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 1: about conserving larger swaths of the remaining natural landscapes we

1835
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:04,439
Speaker 1: have across the world to try to stem the bleeding

1836
01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:06,840
Speaker 1: of sorts. Those two are more recent books that I

1837
01:37:06,880 --> 01:37:09,720
Speaker 1: think cover this one too in interesting ways that if

1838
01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:11,479
Speaker 1: you're interested in this kind of stuff, might be worth

1839
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:15,880
Speaker 1: checking out. UM. But yeah, I think that I think

1840
01:37:15,920 --> 01:37:17,880
Speaker 1: that this is one of those topics that we all

1841
01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:20,120
Speaker 1: have got to be aware of and thinking about, and

1842
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 1: this is a good entry way into that one. So

1843
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:24,519
Speaker 1: that's that's why I recommend The Sixth Extinction, because I

1844
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:26,519
Speaker 1: think this is going to be one of those big

1845
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:29,120
Speaker 1: issues that we're talking about and trying to tackle for

1846
01:37:29,160 --> 01:37:32,760
Speaker 1: the decades to come. So that's that's one that I

1847
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:35,320
Speaker 1: thought would be worth mentioned. Have you read this one? No,

1848
01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:37,880
Speaker 1: I haven't read any of those that you um that

1849
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:40,519
Speaker 1: you just recommended, and they all sound great, and I

1850
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:43,439
Speaker 1: was just I was thinking, it's it's a shame that

1851
01:37:43,479 --> 01:37:46,120
Speaker 1: I think I would guess that a lot of people

1852
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:49,439
Speaker 1: when they hear like a topic like that, they think

1853
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 1: because it's been politicized, people are like, oh, that's that's

1854
01:37:53,560 --> 01:37:56,400
Speaker 1: left wing stuff or whatever. And I'm not. I feel

1855
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:57,800
Speaker 1: like I'm right in the middle, and I try not

1856
01:37:57,840 --> 01:38:00,400
Speaker 1: do it. I don't want to associate with too much

1857
01:38:00,439 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 1: with any one one group in any part of and

1858
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: uh and and I feel like this is one of

1859
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:07,960
Speaker 1: those books mean that that was one of the reasons.

1860
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:10,760
Speaker 1: Like when I started my podcast, I lived in Boulder, Colorado,

1861
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:12,559
Speaker 1: which is about as far left as you can get,

1862
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:14,000
Speaker 1: and I would live next door to some of the

1863
01:38:14,080 --> 01:38:16,920
Speaker 1: you know, the most you could even call militant environmentalist.

1864
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:19,000
Speaker 1: But then in my work, I was out working with

1865
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:22,640
Speaker 1: ranchers who were on the far other end of the spectrum.

1866
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:26,720
Speaker 1: Um Yet there was this massive overlap between the far

1867
01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:31,680
Speaker 1: left environmentalist and the far right ranching conservationists, and they

1868
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:34,759
Speaker 1: had so much more in common than they did different

1869
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:37,240
Speaker 1: And so I feel like this is one of those

1870
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:40,200
Speaker 1: books that whether no matter where you are on the

1871
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:43,519
Speaker 1: political spectrum, I think it's worth reading because at the

1872
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:45,599
Speaker 1: end of the days, I think we all want to

1873
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 1: planet we can live on. You know, we won't clean air,

1874
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:50,760
Speaker 1: we won't animals, and I don't I don't know that

1875
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 1: there's I think if any any kind of politics has

1876
01:38:54,240 --> 01:38:57,360
Speaker 1: been attached to that is serving somebody else. But I

1877
01:38:57,800 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 1: really do think it's it's a it's a topic that

1878
01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:02,320
Speaker 1: I have not read enough about and I need to

1879
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:05,639
Speaker 1: dig deeper into. So I remember when you you were

1880
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:09,400
Speaker 1: recommending this book initially and I wrote it down. So

1881
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:11,360
Speaker 1: this is this is what I need to to push

1882
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 1: it up top of the top of the list. Yeah,

1883
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely worth checking out. Um also won the

1884
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:22,439
Speaker 1: Plitzer Prize, so it's uh it's been well, uh well awarded.

1885
01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:26,920
Speaker 1: Oh sweet, Yeah, yeah, I'll I'll definitely checked that out. Um.

1886
01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:30,599
Speaker 1: All right, my turn, last one. So my last one

1887
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:36,000
Speaker 1: is called All the While that Remains Um, which is

1888
01:39:36,080 --> 01:39:38,479
Speaker 1: by a guy named David Guessner. All the While that

1889
01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:42,800
Speaker 1: Remains Edward Abbey, Wallace Stector in the American West. And

1890
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 1: it's by one of my favorite writers, UM, David Guessner,

1891
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:49,840
Speaker 1: who is actually uh he's a writing professor in North

1892
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,840
Speaker 1: Carolina at University of North Carolina at Wilmington's and he

1893
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 1: actually has been the professor of some of my good

1894
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:58,679
Speaker 1: friends who are really talented writers. But it is uh,

1895
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's the story of as as the title says,

1896
01:40:02,200 --> 01:40:04,559
Speaker 1: Edward Abbey and wat Stegner, who if you're not from

1897
01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:08,000
Speaker 1: the West, you may not have or deeply involved in

1898
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:09,360
Speaker 1: the West, and one way or another you may not

1899
01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 1: have heard of them, but they're they're kind of two

1900
01:40:11,439 --> 01:40:15,559
Speaker 1: different figures. Both were writers, and both kind of came

1901
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:19,519
Speaker 1: up through the you know, the twentieth century and really

1902
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:24,479
Speaker 1: set the stage for both the modern day environmental movement

1903
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:28,960
Speaker 1: as well as just similar to have with Leopold in

1904
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:32,160
Speaker 1: his book. They they they put language in place that

1905
01:40:32,240 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 1: we used to talk about wild places and about the

1906
01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 1: West and about conservation. And you know, this is more

1907
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:40,760
Speaker 1: focused on the West, but I think that it it

1908
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:44,479
Speaker 1: can it has application across the whole country because these

1909
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:48,760
Speaker 1: guys were just so so pivotal in their roles. Um

1910
01:40:48,800 --> 01:40:52,639
Speaker 1: on the surface, you know Stegner, Uh he he grew

1911
01:40:52,720 --> 01:40:54,759
Speaker 1: up kind of going through the West. His his father

1912
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:58,880
Speaker 1: was kind of the stereotypical Western boomer, you know, kind

1913
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:01,040
Speaker 1: of going down to town, trying to strike it rich,

1914
01:41:01,080 --> 01:41:03,519
Speaker 1: trying to make as much money as he can, booms

1915
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:05,920
Speaker 1: and bust. And then the guy, I think he eventually

1916
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 1: just kind of flamed out and uh, like a horrible

1917
01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:12,879
Speaker 1: thing where he had a girlfriend, he killed his girlfriend

1918
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:16,360
Speaker 1: and then committed suicide. And so just this while the

1919
01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:20,280
Speaker 1: Stigna just had this really tumultuous childhood and young adulthood

1920
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:22,799
Speaker 1: and said, while Steigners are grown up, was really the opposite.

1921
01:41:22,880 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 1: He was a buttoned up college professor. He taught at Stanford,

1922
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 1: very you know, on the surface conservative um and thought.

1923
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:33,559
Speaker 1: You know, he was a very talented writer. He wrote

1924
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, Beyond the hundredth Meridian, which is mandatory reading

1925
01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:39,920
Speaker 1: about the West, and then and it's nonfiction, and then

1926
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:42,280
Speaker 1: he also wrote like Angle Over Pose, which is one

1927
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:46,000
Speaker 1: of the best novels ever written. And uh, you know,

1928
01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:49,160
Speaker 1: Debt felt a deep connection to this place that is

1929
01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:52,960
Speaker 1: the West and sought to change it kind of from within.

1930
01:41:53,479 --> 01:41:55,519
Speaker 1: And so a lot of his prime time work was

1931
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:58,160
Speaker 1: during the sixties and seventies when there was also this

1932
01:41:58,200 --> 01:42:01,880
Speaker 1: counterculture movement and you know, hippies and all this kind

1933
01:42:01,880 --> 01:42:03,680
Speaker 1: of stuff, and he really in some ways kind of

1934
01:42:03,720 --> 01:42:06,680
Speaker 1: railed against that type. And so then on the opposite

1935
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:09,680
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum is Edward Abbey, who was a

1936
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:13,559
Speaker 1: wild man and he was, you know, advocate. He he

1937
01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 1: wrote a Desert solidaire, The Monkey Rich Gang kind of

1938
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:20,679
Speaker 1: advocated for this complete other side of things, like even

1939
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 1: kind of like eco terrorism, like let's let's blow up

1940
01:42:23,320 --> 01:42:27,519
Speaker 1: the hoover damn, that kind of crazy stuff. And and

1941
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:29,519
Speaker 1: so both of these guys. He was actually a student

1942
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:32,880
Speaker 1: of Wallace Stegner's for a while in the writing program. Yeah,

1943
01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:36,120
Speaker 1: and so these guys went off um and both made

1944
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:38,759
Speaker 1: their mark on the West and in very different ways.

1945
01:42:39,280 --> 01:42:41,920
Speaker 1: And so this book it's it's a lot of different things.

1946
01:42:41,960 --> 01:42:44,200
Speaker 1: It's kind of a double biography, but it's not it's

1947
01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:47,720
Speaker 1: not completely And I've always liked books where I like

1948
01:42:47,840 --> 01:42:51,559
Speaker 1: double biographies, like for example, The Bully Pulpit that's Um

1949
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:54,400
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt and President Taft. And I think when you

1950
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:56,439
Speaker 1: can play people off of each other, it allows you

1951
01:42:56,479 --> 01:42:59,000
Speaker 1: to to kind of dig into parts of their personality

1952
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:02,400
Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to other wise. But um, but

1953
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:05,320
Speaker 1: Guessner also works in a lot of his own personal

1954
01:43:05,360 --> 01:43:08,200
Speaker 1: story into it, and he works in a big road

1955
01:43:08,200 --> 01:43:10,040
Speaker 1: trip across the West. And it's one of these things

1956
01:43:10,080 --> 01:43:11,680
Speaker 1: like we were talking about with your book and with

1957
01:43:12,320 --> 01:43:16,880
Speaker 1: Steve's book, of of um, an adventure. Adventure story is

1958
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:18,600
Speaker 1: kind of the backbone of the book, and then you

1959
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:23,400
Speaker 1: learn stuff along the way and um. And so you know,

1960
01:43:23,560 --> 01:43:26,800
Speaker 1: Guessner is very very very funny, at least I think

1961
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:29,400
Speaker 1: he is. And you get a lot of his personality,

1962
01:43:29,720 --> 01:43:31,519
Speaker 1: and you get a lot of his ideas about everything

1963
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:34,040
Speaker 1: from writing to the importance of hard work, to the

1964
01:43:34,040 --> 01:43:38,080
Speaker 1: importance of having adventures and being you know, kind of

1965
01:43:38,160 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 1: seeking out wild places and connecting with our innate wildness.

1966
01:43:43,400 --> 01:43:46,639
Speaker 1: And um. You know, Guessner is more on the progressive

1967
01:43:46,680 --> 01:43:49,720
Speaker 1: side of things with his political beliefs. But UM, I

1968
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: know him very well. He's been on my podcast, I

1969
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 1: think at least three times. And uh, you know, he

1970
01:43:55,280 --> 01:43:59,400
Speaker 1: is a very thoughtful, very smart, very funny guy. And

1971
01:43:59,439 --> 01:44:02,920
Speaker 1: so I think, no matter what your political persuasion or thoughts,

1972
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:06,240
Speaker 1: if you want to have a good understanding of the

1973
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:09,719
Speaker 1: modern day West and the modern day conservation movement, whether

1974
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:15,280
Speaker 1: that means the far left environmentalist type stuff or conservation

1975
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:18,960
Speaker 1: as in conserving ranches, conserving forms. I think this book

1976
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:23,040
Speaker 1: really lays a great foundation for that, So, Holly, reg

1977
01:44:23,080 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 1: I recommend all of Guesterner's book. He wrote a pretty

1978
01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:27,200
Speaker 1: good one, I mean a really good one recently about

1979
01:44:27,439 --> 01:44:30,600
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt called Leave It as it Is that I

1980
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 1: thought was great. I mean, he's he is hilarious too. So, UM,

1981
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:37,719
Speaker 1: have you read all the while it remains? Oh? Yeah,

1982
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:39,639
Speaker 1: I was actually going to include it on my list

1983
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:43,120
Speaker 1: until I saw that you included it. So I think

1984
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:46,040
Speaker 1: you did a big, big fan of this one. Um,

1985
01:44:46,080 --> 01:44:48,519
Speaker 1: and I couldn't agree more. And I would, I would

1986
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:51,479
Speaker 1: just emphasize something you said. But I want to make

1987
01:44:51,479 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 1: a really big point on this is that while these

1988
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:58,360
Speaker 1: two guys are known as Western writers and primarily discussing

1989
01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:02,120
Speaker 1: some Western related issues, this is not just about Western

1990
01:45:02,160 --> 01:45:06,160
Speaker 1: conservation or anything that it really like these guys, while

1991
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 1: while the West was their main canvas that they painted

1992
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:13,280
Speaker 1: their stories and ideas on the concepts, the philosophies, the

1993
01:45:13,360 --> 01:45:17,719
Speaker 1: ideas about protecting places, conserving places, caring about these things.

1994
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:21,680
Speaker 1: It applies across everything, and and what they wrote in

1995
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:25,400
Speaker 1: the ideas that they popularized are still pulled upon and

1996
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:29,880
Speaker 1: inspire people trying to conserve across the entire nation, whether

1997
01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:34,439
Speaker 1: it's in Maine or Florida or Montana. Um. So I

1998
01:45:34,479 --> 01:45:37,800
Speaker 1: think this this book is kind of, um, you know,

1999
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 1: more than just the things you described that being like

2000
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:46,000
Speaker 1: the dual biography, it's also this kind of examination of

2001
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:49,760
Speaker 1: of this history, but then also kind of current um,

2002
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 1: current environment we're in and trying to make sense of

2003
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:58,360
Speaker 1: how we can fight this fight while also being real

2004
01:45:58,439 --> 01:46:01,719
Speaker 1: people and the realities of the world and the everything

2005
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:06,080
Speaker 1: that that involves. Um. Understanding those two people, I think

2006
01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:09,160
Speaker 1: is is pretty important in understanding how we as a

2007
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:12,080
Speaker 1: as a community think about these things today. And they

2008
01:46:12,120 --> 01:46:14,160
Speaker 1: did such a good job putting words to so many

2009
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:18,000
Speaker 1: things we think and feel today. UM. And I mean

2010
01:46:18,479 --> 01:46:20,719
Speaker 1: I love both the writing. But ed Abbey. Ed Abbey

2011
01:46:20,800 --> 01:46:25,000
Speaker 1: especially is just like such a firebrand. And even though

2012
01:46:25,040 --> 01:46:28,320
Speaker 1: he have he of course, you know, in my opinion,

2013
01:46:28,360 --> 01:46:31,080
Speaker 1: went too far or at least you know, he he

2014
01:46:31,439 --> 01:46:35,080
Speaker 1: espouses things that would be far too far from me. Right.

2015
01:46:35,160 --> 01:46:37,320
Speaker 1: Some of the stuff you talked about, which is Uh.

2016
01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:42,599
Speaker 1: I think you know, obviously you would not condone any

2017
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:46,560
Speaker 1: form of violence, right, Um. But outside of some of

2018
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:51,240
Speaker 1: that stuff he talked about, UM, I do love how

2019
01:46:51,320 --> 01:46:56,640
Speaker 1: he is able to express how piste off he was

2020
01:46:56,680 --> 01:46:59,840
Speaker 1: about things, and how piste off I can be about things,

2021
01:47:00,040 --> 01:47:04,040
Speaker 1: and the pain and the fury that I think we

2022
01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:11,280
Speaker 1: rightfully should feel sometimes about the I don't know who

2023
01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:13,559
Speaker 1: who to blame, because it's just as much me as anyone,

2024
01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:17,040
Speaker 1: right But like the collective ship, we've taken on the

2025
01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 1: natural world in so many instances across our nation's history

2026
01:47:20,439 --> 01:47:23,519
Speaker 1: and continue to do so. That is, you know, it's

2027
01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:26,160
Speaker 1: on each one of us in one way or another. UM.

2028
01:47:26,200 --> 01:47:29,800
Speaker 1: So I'm a part of that unfortunately too. But I think,

2029
01:47:29,960 --> 01:47:32,439
Speaker 1: um he does a great way of putting words and

2030
01:47:32,479 --> 01:47:38,760
Speaker 1: emotions to this, uh collective trauma we can experience in

2031
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:41,200
Speaker 1: different ways when we look at a place that we

2032
01:47:41,280 --> 01:47:44,240
Speaker 1: love being paved over with a Walmart parking lot, or

2033
01:47:44,280 --> 01:47:46,559
Speaker 1: when we see a river that we loved rafting being

2034
01:47:46,640 --> 01:47:51,959
Speaker 1: damned up and you know, civilized or whatever it might be. Um,

2035
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:54,360
Speaker 1: he's one of the few people that has been able

2036
01:47:54,400 --> 01:47:57,640
Speaker 1: to just with no filter, express those things in a

2037
01:47:57,640 --> 01:48:00,280
Speaker 1: way they think hits a lot of people. So this

2038
01:48:00,360 --> 01:48:03,160
Speaker 1: is a great introduction to him. And if you enjoy

2039
01:48:03,320 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 1: reading about him and the ideas in this book, um,

2040
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:09,519
Speaker 1: then you gotta read Desert Solitaire, which is at Abbey's book,

2041
01:48:09,600 --> 01:48:12,439
Speaker 1: one of one of his many books. Um. And and

2042
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:14,640
Speaker 1: I enjoyed that one too well. And I think, you

2043
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,160
Speaker 1: know you, I think guests Are also does a really

2044
01:48:17,200 --> 01:48:20,679
Speaker 1: good job of laying out that, like every human on earth,

2045
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:23,520
Speaker 1: at Abbey was gonna be a bit of a hypocrite,

2046
01:48:23,560 --> 01:48:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, he was. You know, he's advocating for basically

2047
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:30,880
Speaker 1: blowing up bulldozers to keep him off of a piece

2048
01:48:30,880 --> 01:48:32,880
Speaker 1: of land. But at the same time he was known

2049
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:35,599
Speaker 1: for drinking beer while he's driving and throwing the cans

2050
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:37,720
Speaker 1: out the window and just littering, you know. And so

2051
01:48:37,840 --> 01:48:42,040
Speaker 1: I think some of these guys tr especially, but a

2052
01:48:42,120 --> 01:48:44,000
Speaker 1: lot of these people can be put on this pedestal

2053
01:48:44,040 --> 01:48:46,799
Speaker 1: as if their other worldly or they're not human or there,

2054
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:50,240
Speaker 1: and but they're all flawed. Every single one of these

2055
01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:53,080
Speaker 1: people is flawed. And I think, um, Guestner does a

2056
01:48:53,120 --> 01:48:56,720
Speaker 1: great job of showing just how complex both Stegner and

2057
01:48:56,920 --> 01:48:59,519
Speaker 1: Abbey are. And if anything, you can take that and

2058
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:01,360
Speaker 1: be like, all right, well, yeah, I'm like, I sit

2059
01:49:01,439 --> 01:49:03,240
Speaker 1: here saying there's not enough water in the West, yet

2060
01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 1: I moved here from North Carolina, so I'm a hypocrite.

2061
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:09,400
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean I I can't try to help something

2062
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:12,599
Speaker 1: or try to do something about it. So I, um, yeah,

2063
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:15,479
Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite books. I think. Yep, yep,

2064
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:21,040
Speaker 1: I agree me too. Uh. Great great book, kudos Dave, Yeah,

2065
01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:25,840
Speaker 1: well done, well done. Okay, So that's a really good

2066
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:29,439
Speaker 1: segue into my last recommendation because a few of the

2067
01:49:29,439 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 1: at Abbey type themes pop up in this one. Have

2068
01:49:32,400 --> 01:49:35,439
Speaker 1: you read The Over Story by Richard Powers? No, But

2069
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:38,680
Speaker 1: like every good writer I know says it's like one

2070
01:49:38,680 --> 01:49:40,240
Speaker 1: of the best books I've ever read their whole life.

2071
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:41,840
Speaker 1: And so I don't know why I haven't read it.

2072
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:44,960
Speaker 1: But Guessner actually said, he said he he could not

2073
01:49:45,240 --> 01:49:48,320
Speaker 1: believe how great a book the book. It was like

2074
01:49:48,439 --> 01:49:52,200
Speaker 1: just as if it's from another planet. And so, um,

2075
01:49:52,439 --> 01:49:55,160
Speaker 1: I've heard it from many many people. I need to

2076
01:49:55,280 --> 01:49:57,200
Speaker 1: it's on my shelf. I have not read it. Tell

2077
01:49:57,240 --> 01:49:59,680
Speaker 1: me about it. Yeah, man, that's that's exactly how I

2078
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:03,519
Speaker 1: feel about it. And I literally, after finishing reading the book,

2079
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:06,160
Speaker 1: I like dropped it on my lap and then just

2080
01:50:06,280 --> 01:50:09,360
Speaker 1: stood staring blankly at the wall for for ten minutes,

2081
01:50:09,479 --> 01:50:13,920
Speaker 1: just kind of overwhelmed by it. And I have actually

2082
01:50:13,920 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 1: thought my wife's reading it right now, but when she

2083
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:19,920
Speaker 1: gets done, I'm gonna put this. I'm gonna mount it

2084
01:50:19,960 --> 01:50:22,639
Speaker 1: to my wall or put it on my desk someway.

2085
01:50:22,680 --> 01:50:24,599
Speaker 1: I have no other books like right prominently in front

2086
01:50:24,640 --> 01:50:27,040
Speaker 1: of me, but I'm gonna put it there somewhere to

2087
01:50:27,200 --> 01:50:34,519
Speaker 1: showcase the power of a story. It's it's it's really something. UM.

2088
01:50:34,560 --> 01:50:37,439
Speaker 1: I recommended this book to my buddy Doug during anyone

2089
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:41,200
Speaker 1: listening to this nose Dug during Hunter. He's been featured

2090
01:50:41,200 --> 01:50:43,880
Speaker 1: on Mediator, He's been in the podcast and he's starting

2091
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:45,519
Speaker 1: to read this book right now. And he just texted

2092
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:48,840
Speaker 1: me today and I want to read you his endorsement UM.

2093
01:50:48,880 --> 01:50:52,800
Speaker 1: As an intro to this, he says, the overstory is remarkable.

2094
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:55,479
Speaker 1: I've been too busy to devour, and slow reading has

2095
01:50:55,520 --> 01:50:58,360
Speaker 1: allowed me to marvel at the writing, relate to the characters,

2096
01:50:58,360 --> 01:51:01,760
Speaker 1: and wonder what's next. I've always marveled at trees and

2097
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:04,479
Speaker 1: felt connected to them, but this book has given words

2098
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:09,160
Speaker 1: to those feelings. So here's what this book is about.

2099
01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:12,439
Speaker 1: It Well, it's hard to tell you exactly what this

2100
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:18,360
Speaker 1: books about. But the the overstory is it's a story.

2101
01:51:19,200 --> 01:51:24,080
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of a massive parable. It's it's a

2102
01:51:24,280 --> 01:51:27,440
Speaker 1: fictional book first off, So this is not a nonfiction

2103
01:51:27,680 --> 01:51:29,960
Speaker 1: like history book or anything. This is a fictional book

2104
01:51:30,479 --> 01:51:33,800
Speaker 1: about in general. I don't I don't read a lot

2105
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 1: of fiction at all. So that's why I've heard the

2106
01:51:36,280 --> 01:51:37,880
Speaker 1: same I heard the same things. You heard that like,

2107
01:51:37,920 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 1: you got to read this book, it's incredible. But I

2108
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:41,840
Speaker 1: kept thinking to myself, Man, I don't know. I don't

2109
01:51:41,840 --> 01:51:44,439
Speaker 1: really like fiction. Um. I do read, you know, the

2110
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:46,519
Speaker 1: occasional fiction thing. But if I am going to read fiction,

2111
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:50,000
Speaker 1: it's usually like action or fantasy or sci fi or

2112
01:51:50,040 --> 01:51:54,760
Speaker 1: something like that. I don't read general literary fiction. Um

2113
01:51:54,800 --> 01:51:59,240
Speaker 1: So I just had that um resistance, I guess to it.

2114
01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:03,120
Speaker 1: But finally I picked it up. And at first you

2115
01:52:03,200 --> 01:52:05,559
Speaker 1: might be wondering, like what is this book about? Once

2116
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,960
Speaker 1: you start, because each chapter, the first like eight chapters,

2117
01:52:09,040 --> 01:52:12,360
Speaker 1: are seemingly disconnected. They almost don't have anything to do

2118
01:52:12,400 --> 01:52:15,040
Speaker 1: with each other. You're just learning about like it's a

2119
01:52:15,200 --> 01:52:18,320
Speaker 1: short story. Each chapter is seemingly a short story about

2120
01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 1: some new character, and you get pulled into each one.

2121
01:52:22,080 --> 01:52:25,559
Speaker 1: It's like amazingly interesting and fascinating and absolutely beautifully written.

2122
01:52:25,640 --> 01:52:28,120
Speaker 1: And each one has something to do with trees in

2123
01:52:28,360 --> 01:52:31,080
Speaker 1: the natural world, but in different ways. But each of

2124
01:52:31,120 --> 01:52:34,000
Speaker 1: these different people has some kind of experience or connection

2125
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:41,000
Speaker 1: with with trees, the forest, plants, um but seemingly none

2126
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:43,920
Speaker 1: of it's connected. But then as the book progresses, each

2127
01:52:43,960 --> 01:52:47,960
Speaker 1: of these different disparate characters is pulled together in this

2128
01:52:48,120 --> 01:52:55,240
Speaker 1: huge overarching story where in one way or another, each

2129
01:52:55,240 --> 01:53:00,080
Speaker 1: one of these different people has an awakening to the

2130
01:53:00,160 --> 01:53:02,320
Speaker 1: natural world in some kind of way, or some kind

2131
01:53:02,320 --> 01:53:09,680
Speaker 1: of new awareness to our connection with trees and forests

2132
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:14,599
Speaker 1: and plants in nature in general. And and they kind

2133
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:17,400
Speaker 1: of have this huge long character arc where eventually these

2134
01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:19,240
Speaker 1: people all kind of come together in this kind of

2135
01:53:19,280 --> 01:53:23,160
Speaker 1: epic story that I don't I'm not going to tell

2136
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:27,439
Speaker 1: you the specifics of all what happens, but you just

2137
01:53:27,560 --> 01:53:31,960
Speaker 1: have to trust me in this that you learn a

2138
01:53:32,040 --> 01:53:36,120
Speaker 1: tremendous amount about trees and forests, like like forests and

2139
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:39,080
Speaker 1: trees are the are the central theme, like all the

2140
01:53:39,160 --> 01:53:44,160
Speaker 1: book revolves around trees, and and you end up coming

2141
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:48,439
Speaker 1: out of this book with this newfound wonder with these

2142
01:53:49,200 --> 01:53:53,479
Speaker 1: organisms and these ecosystems, UM and the power they have

2143
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:55,800
Speaker 1: in our connection with them and in the connection we've

2144
01:53:55,800 --> 01:54:00,120
Speaker 1: had with them in the history of our country. UM.

2145
01:54:00,160 --> 01:54:05,120
Speaker 1: But but more than just that, it's um it showcases

2146
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:10,559
Speaker 1: like the power of fiction to convey emotion because it's

2147
01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:14,200
Speaker 1: it's just a story. It's not like, you know, Richard

2148
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:16,599
Speaker 1: Powers could have beach over the head with a thousand

2149
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:22,280
Speaker 1: facts and historical tidbits and studies about trees, and instead

2150
01:54:22,439 --> 01:54:26,400
Speaker 1: he poured all of this knowledge and studies and research

2151
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:30,800
Speaker 1: and interesting science about trees and forests and history, and

2152
01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:33,920
Speaker 1: he poured that into and layer that onto a set

2153
01:54:33,960 --> 01:54:37,760
Speaker 1: of stories with characters and people going through real life stuff,

2154
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:41,120
Speaker 1: having real life things happen in a way that you

2155
01:54:41,240 --> 01:54:44,080
Speaker 1: care about these people and this stuff so much more

2156
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:47,720
Speaker 1: than if you're reading a science book. UM. And it

2157
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:53,440
Speaker 1: ends up being incredibly emotional, incredibly inspiring, incredibly empowering, incredibly

2158
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:59,360
Speaker 1: sad and uplifting and UM, I mean, I'm kind of

2159
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:01,440
Speaker 1: at a loss of words how to really describe this.

2160
01:55:01,560 --> 01:55:04,960
Speaker 1: But if you are anyone who cares about this stuff

2161
01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:08,720
Speaker 1: we've been talking about in this podcast, so far this

2162
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 1: story will connect with you, I think in a really

2163
01:55:12,680 --> 01:55:16,680
Speaker 1: really powerful way. It is a jaw dropper in a

2164
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:21,520
Speaker 1: lot of ways. Um. You go on these journeys with

2165
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:25,720
Speaker 1: these people that UM, I don't know. I came out

2166
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:29,120
Speaker 1: of reading this book just like fired up to do more,

2167
01:55:29,800 --> 01:55:32,760
Speaker 1: to try to you know. Even though the general theme

2168
01:55:32,800 --> 01:55:34,880
Speaker 1: of this book is around trees and the forests, I

2169
01:55:34,880 --> 01:55:38,360
Speaker 1: think it it speaks to everything. It speaks to the

2170
01:55:38,440 --> 01:55:42,040
Speaker 1: general sense of or the general issues we have around everything.

2171
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:46,960
Speaker 1: We've talked about wildlife, water, um habitat, protection, conservation of

2172
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:52,160
Speaker 1: natural resources, dear birds, grasslands, forest, deserts, whatever. This book

2173
01:55:52,200 --> 01:55:58,000
Speaker 1: is really about awakening to a a consciousness of some

2174
01:55:58,080 --> 01:55:59,920
Speaker 1: kind of connection with these things, and then trying to

2175
01:56:00,040 --> 01:56:02,280
Speaker 1: do something about it. Realizing these things are out here

2176
01:56:02,320 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 1: and they matter and that they matter to us, and

2177
01:56:04,360 --> 01:56:06,720
Speaker 1: then realizing, holy sh it, what are we gonna do

2178
01:56:06,760 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 1: to make sure this stuff is still around someday? And

2179
01:56:10,120 --> 01:56:12,040
Speaker 1: you go on this journey with like six or seven

2180
01:56:12,040 --> 01:56:16,560
Speaker 1: different people, and it's just shocking. It's just it's it's

2181
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:19,959
Speaker 1: I don't know. This book just serves like the shocking

2182
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:22,680
Speaker 1: power to me that words can have and the stories

2183
01:56:22,720 --> 01:56:26,480
Speaker 1: can have. UM. So I can't recommend it enough. You know,

2184
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:29,480
Speaker 1: it's it's a book to savor, it's not a book

2185
01:56:29,480 --> 01:56:32,200
Speaker 1: to try to rush through. I don't think. Um, although

2186
01:56:32,320 --> 01:56:34,120
Speaker 1: once you get to the second half of the book,

2187
01:56:34,160 --> 01:56:38,440
Speaker 1: it does really really pull you along. Um. But it's

2188
01:56:38,480 --> 01:56:41,000
Speaker 1: it's something else, man, it really is something else. I

2189
01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:43,640
Speaker 1: have to I will say. Like. The one thing is like,

2190
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:46,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be some people that will read

2191
01:56:46,800 --> 01:56:49,320
Speaker 1: this and they will see a couple of things that happen,

2192
01:56:49,400 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 1: a couple of like the more extreme. Um, Like, there's

2193
01:56:53,280 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 1: an act of eco terrorism in the book that some

2194
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:58,040
Speaker 1: of the characters do. And so I obviously won't I

2195
01:56:58,080 --> 01:57:00,720
Speaker 1: do not condone that, of course. Um. So there'll be

2196
01:57:00,760 --> 01:57:02,760
Speaker 1: some people that will read this. I'm like, oh, Jesus,

2197
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:08,160
Speaker 1: is some leftist, crazy, wacko radical environmentalist terrorists. Um and

2198
01:57:08,160 --> 01:57:09,720
Speaker 1: And I don't want that to get in the way

2199
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:12,520
Speaker 1: of the rest of the book. I think the sentiments

2200
01:57:12,560 --> 01:57:15,920
Speaker 1: and the emotions and the cares and the worries expressed

2201
01:57:15,920 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 1: in this book and that you follow on this journey

2202
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:20,880
Speaker 1: with these people about I think it's pretty universal and

2203
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:26,360
Speaker 1: pretty powerful and um and man, I'll never question fiction

2204
01:57:26,400 --> 01:57:28,720
Speaker 1: again after reading this one, because I think you can

2205
01:57:28,760 --> 01:57:31,240
Speaker 1: teach and inspire just as much with something like this

2206
01:57:31,760 --> 01:57:34,760
Speaker 1: as you can with any of the other nonfiction books

2207
01:57:34,800 --> 01:57:40,200
Speaker 1: we've talked about. So, yeah, the Overstory by Richard Powers, Yeah,

2208
01:57:40,200 --> 01:57:43,920
Speaker 1: I've I've heard such great things about that, but from

2209
01:57:43,960 --> 01:57:46,600
Speaker 1: just in general just the buzz, but then from people

2210
01:57:46,640 --> 01:57:51,400
Speaker 1: that I really really respect, um and so that I

2211
01:57:51,800 --> 01:57:53,520
Speaker 1: just need to make that one happen. And I'm like you,

2212
01:57:53,640 --> 01:57:56,800
Speaker 1: I just I don't read much fiction at all. I mean,

2213
01:57:56,840 --> 01:57:59,080
Speaker 1: and I never have. And I used to kind of

2214
01:57:59,080 --> 01:58:01,960
Speaker 1: tell we're like to take pride, and they're like, I don't.

2215
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:05,720
Speaker 1: I don't read fiction. But thankfully through my podcast and

2216
01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:08,520
Speaker 1: and then through um just forcing myself outside of my

2217
01:58:08,560 --> 01:58:12,440
Speaker 1: comfort zone, I've I've really have started started reading more fiction.

2218
01:58:12,520 --> 01:58:15,320
Speaker 1: And like, there's an author named Nicholas Butler that I

2219
01:58:15,320 --> 01:58:17,800
Speaker 1: had on my podcast and I was just recently introduced

2220
01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:20,480
Speaker 1: to his work. And when you know, there's a certain

2221
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:23,880
Speaker 1: type of novelist who can, like you said, communicate these

2222
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:27,120
Speaker 1: larger truths in a way that you could never get

2223
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:30,320
Speaker 1: from the facts and figures of nonfiction no matter how

2224
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:34,040
Speaker 1: much you read. They can just tap into this. I

2225
01:58:34,040 --> 01:58:35,720
Speaker 1: don't know if you call it any emotional side of

2226
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:39,400
Speaker 1: things or or it's just that they get these big

2227
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 1: themes that we can all connect with through into our brains,

2228
01:58:44,120 --> 01:58:47,760
Speaker 1: through these fictional stories. And when it's done, when it's

2229
01:58:47,800 --> 01:58:50,880
Speaker 1: done well or done spectacularly, like it sounds like the overstory,

2230
01:58:51,240 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 1: there's nothing more powerful. And so, um, I'm glad to

2231
01:58:55,520 --> 01:58:57,360
Speaker 1: hear you say that, because I've I've got it on

2232
01:58:57,400 --> 01:58:59,960
Speaker 1: my shelf. I bought it as soon as I think

2233
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:02,200
Speaker 1: as soon as Guessner said I was talking about it

2234
01:59:02,240 --> 01:59:04,680
Speaker 1: being like the great American novel or something, and um,

2235
01:59:04,720 --> 01:59:08,040
Speaker 1: but it's just been sitting there, so I will get

2236
01:59:08,080 --> 01:59:10,920
Speaker 1: to work. Yeah, no more letting that sit in the shelf.

2237
01:59:11,440 --> 01:59:15,240
Speaker 1: And this one won the Pulitzer Prize too, so it's uh,

2238
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:20,640
Speaker 1: you got you got a highbrow tasting books does maybe

2239
01:59:20,720 --> 01:59:23,520
Speaker 1: the only two Pulitzer winners on my bookshelf, but they

2240
01:59:23,520 --> 01:59:26,440
Speaker 1: are good ones. The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt won the

2241
01:59:26,480 --> 01:59:28,640
Speaker 1: Pulitzer and that's my favorite books. So there you good

2242
01:59:28,720 --> 01:59:32,160
Speaker 1: with you on Pulitzers, You're there with me? Uh yeah, man,

2243
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:35,360
Speaker 1: There's there's ten books plus a few I think extra

2244
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:39,360
Speaker 1: suggestions in there for anyone who wants to really dig

2245
01:59:39,400 --> 01:59:41,560
Speaker 1: into this stuff. I think it's a pretty diverse list.

2246
01:59:41,600 --> 01:59:44,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different stuff covered there. Yeah, and

2247
01:59:44,880 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different ways you can take it.

2248
01:59:46,560 --> 01:59:48,680
Speaker 1: You know, you read one of those books and then

2249
01:59:48,680 --> 01:59:50,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna have a list of twenty other books you

2250
01:59:50,400 --> 01:59:53,800
Speaker 1: want to read. So, um, there's a there's a lot there.

2251
01:59:53,840 --> 01:59:55,880
Speaker 1: And I can't wait to dig into those two that

2252
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:58,960
Speaker 1: I had not read from your list. So I appreciate this. Yeah, yeah,

2253
01:59:58,960 --> 02:00:02,000
Speaker 1: me too. I'm gonna pick up down River here right

2254
02:00:02,000 --> 02:00:04,520
Speaker 1: when we get off the phone. UM, I want a

2255
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:09,120
Speaker 1: real quick throw out a couple other resource suggestions for people,

2256
02:00:09,160 --> 02:00:11,760
Speaker 1: if if there are folks now, I don't think anyone

2257
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 1: who's listened this far doesn't like to read, because if

2258
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:16,880
Speaker 1: you've listened to almost two hours I was talking about books,

2259
02:00:17,240 --> 02:00:20,520
Speaker 1: you must like books. But I guess if for some

2260
02:00:20,560 --> 02:00:22,640
Speaker 1: reason you don't like books and you've still listened to

2261
02:00:22,640 --> 02:00:24,040
Speaker 1: all of this, I wanted to give a couple of

2262
02:00:24,160 --> 02:00:26,640
Speaker 1: non book suggestions to people. I should have done this

2263
02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:31,440
Speaker 1: at the beginning, but better late than never. Um, I

2264
02:00:31,440 --> 02:00:33,400
Speaker 1: don't know if you had any ideas like this, but

2265
02:00:33,440 --> 02:00:34,520
Speaker 1: I had a couple of things I was going to

2266
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:38,880
Speaker 1: throw out there. Um, A favorite documentary of mine related

2267
02:00:38,920 --> 02:00:41,520
Speaker 1: to some of these topics is Public Trust, which is

2268
02:00:41,560 --> 02:00:45,120
Speaker 1: a tremendous documentary about the fight for public lands. Talks

2269
02:00:45,120 --> 02:00:46,720
Speaker 1: about a lot of the same things I talked about

2270
02:00:46,760 --> 02:00:48,760
Speaker 1: my book, but does it in a really powerful way

2271
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:51,160
Speaker 1: that you know, film can do with our you know,

2272
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:55,480
Speaker 1: shared friend hall hearing um great. Great. Another thing I

2273
02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:57,640
Speaker 1: would suggest to folks if they want to learn more

2274
02:00:57,640 --> 02:00:59,720
Speaker 1: about conservation, if they want to learn more about what's

2275
02:00:59,760 --> 02:01:02,040
Speaker 1: going on day to day, there are a number of

2276
02:01:02,080 --> 02:01:05,240
Speaker 1: good newsletters out there that come out weekly or even daily,

2277
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:08,080
Speaker 1: keeping you up to speed on stuff going on. So

2278
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:10,880
Speaker 1: a few that I subscribed to, I'll just mention the

2279
02:01:10,880 --> 02:01:14,200
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. It's got a really good weekly

2280
02:01:14,240 --> 02:01:16,480
Speaker 1: newsletter which keeps you have to speed on. You know,

2281
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:19,840
Speaker 1: these aren't just articles from them. They post articles from

2282
02:01:19,840 --> 02:01:22,960
Speaker 1: all sorts of different people talking about relevant issues in

2283
02:01:23,000 --> 02:01:26,800
Speaker 1: the hunting and fishing and conservation space. The Center for

2284
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 1: Western Priorities sends out a daily newsletter that's mostly Western

2285
02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:34,960
Speaker 1: conservation issue focused, but touches on a whole lot of

2286
02:01:34,960 --> 02:01:38,880
Speaker 1: different things related to environmental and conservation causes every day,

2287
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:40,960
Speaker 1: with a big list of links to go check out.

2288
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:43,400
Speaker 1: That's a good way just to keep your finger on

2289
02:01:43,440 --> 02:01:46,600
Speaker 1: the pulse of different things going on across the country. Um,

2290
02:01:47,240 --> 02:01:49,640
Speaker 1: for the deer hunters out there, the National Deer Association

2291
02:01:49,920 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 1: got a newsletter where they're posting a number of different updates.

2292
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:55,880
Speaker 1: B h A has another one, same thing. Lots of

2293
02:01:55,920 --> 02:01:59,120
Speaker 1: good updates there. And then finally, I will tell you

2294
02:01:59,160 --> 02:02:03,440
Speaker 1: that the Mountain and Prairie Podcast by you, Sir Ed Robertson,

2295
02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:06,960
Speaker 1: is a great, great podcast to listen to if you

2296
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:09,480
Speaker 1: care about these issues too, because you've had a number

2297
02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:13,120
Speaker 1: of people that either write about these things or engage

2298
02:02:13,120 --> 02:02:14,640
Speaker 1: with these things on a day to day basis, and

2299
02:02:14,680 --> 02:02:18,000
Speaker 1: a number of different careers, um, who care about conservation

2300
02:02:18,040 --> 02:02:20,560
Speaker 1: and live it day to day. And I've been inspired

2301
02:02:20,600 --> 02:02:22,839
Speaker 1: by a lot of those conversations you have, so highly

2302
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:26,600
Speaker 1: suggest folks if you're listening, tune into Ed's show. Um,

2303
02:02:26,640 --> 02:02:29,560
Speaker 1: if you care about wild places, wild animals, the West,

2304
02:02:29,600 --> 02:02:31,440
Speaker 1: any of that stuff, you're gonna find something there on

2305
02:02:31,480 --> 02:02:34,520
Speaker 1: the Mountain Prairie Podcast. So those are my suggestions that

2306
02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:37,160
Speaker 1: do you have anything else you've did? Um, yeah, I'd

2307
02:02:37,200 --> 02:02:40,400
Speaker 1: say for a documentary, there's a really good one called

2308
02:02:40,800 --> 02:02:43,640
Speaker 1: First of all public trust. I highly recommend that awesome.

2309
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:46,760
Speaker 1: It's how hearing. He's a he's a hero mine, he's

2310
02:02:46,800 --> 02:02:48,360
Speaker 1: and he's a big fan of you and your book

2311
02:02:48,400 --> 02:02:50,600
Speaker 1: by the way, as you know, UM. But there's a

2312
02:02:50,640 --> 02:02:53,400
Speaker 1: really good one more specific, but it's UM called Into

2313
02:02:53,440 --> 02:02:56,640
Speaker 1: the Canyon by it's a filmmaker named Pete McBride and

2314
02:02:56,880 --> 02:03:00,000
Speaker 1: he Pete and his buddy Kevin Fidarco, who's an author

2315
02:03:00,080 --> 02:03:03,000
Speaker 1: or who wrote UM the Emerald Mile, which is a

2316
02:03:03,400 --> 02:03:07,360
Speaker 1: really awesome book of the Grand Canyon. They hike the

2317
02:03:07,480 --> 02:03:10,120
Speaker 1: length of the canyon inside it, so it's like eight

2318
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:13,240
Speaker 1: hundred miles no trail. Very few people have done it,

2319
02:03:13,320 --> 02:03:15,680
Speaker 1: and so they hike from one end of the canyon

2320
02:03:15,720 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 1: to the other and film it and then along the

2321
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:21,840
Speaker 1: way UM talk about a lot of different threats that

2322
02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:24,000
Speaker 1: are facing the canyon and the history of the canyon,

2323
02:03:24,320 --> 02:03:26,680
Speaker 1: and so again it's like it's the film version of

2324
02:03:26,720 --> 02:03:29,000
Speaker 1: what we've been talking about these books, this adventure story

2325
02:03:29,360 --> 02:03:31,680
Speaker 1: where they work in a bunch of really interesting things

2326
02:03:31,680 --> 02:03:33,600
Speaker 1: and even about the you know, the Navajo and the

2327
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:36,720
Speaker 1: tribal lands and some threats to their way of life.

2328
02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:41,360
Speaker 1: UM Pete, and there's a there's a companion coffee table

2329
02:03:41,440 --> 02:03:43,600
Speaker 1: book that goes with it that shows some of them

2330
02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:47,240
Speaker 1: the work, uh, some of the photos from that expedition,

2331
02:03:47,320 --> 02:03:50,960
Speaker 1: but really really awesome. UM. If you're into private lands,

2332
02:03:50,960 --> 02:03:55,880
Speaker 1: particularly ranching, um and ranchings, impact on h on conservation.

2333
02:03:55,920 --> 02:03:58,720
Speaker 1: There's a really good group called the Western Landowners Association

2334
02:03:59,360 --> 02:04:01,560
Speaker 1: and they it out what I think is one of

2335
02:04:01,560 --> 02:04:04,280
Speaker 1: the best emails around. I think once a month they

2336
02:04:04,280 --> 02:04:06,720
Speaker 1: put it out, and it's just filled with resources about

2337
02:04:06,720 --> 02:04:11,240
Speaker 1: everything from conservation to land management, land stewardship. Very very

2338
02:04:11,240 --> 02:04:14,000
Speaker 1: focused on the private land side of things, but it's

2339
02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:16,480
Speaker 1: inspiring to see all the work that's going into things

2340
02:04:16,520 --> 02:04:19,760
Speaker 1: on the private land side. I actually it's embarrassing. I

2341
02:04:19,840 --> 02:04:21,400
Speaker 1: was just late doing it. But I went on my

2342
02:04:21,600 --> 02:04:25,280
Speaker 1: first elk hunt in January and it was a life

2343
02:04:25,360 --> 02:04:28,600
Speaker 1: changing experience. And I am now a member of back

2344
02:04:28,640 --> 02:04:32,280
Speaker 1: Country Hunters and Anglers and will be forever and uh

2345
02:04:32,400 --> 02:04:35,840
Speaker 1: and so I'm just getting really dialed into all the

2346
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:38,440
Speaker 1: resources they have. But I've got a few of their

2347
02:04:38,480 --> 02:04:42,360
Speaker 1: magazines and I've I've been getting their their emails, and UM,

2348
02:04:43,080 --> 02:04:45,880
Speaker 1: huge fan of everything they're doing and can't wait to

2349
02:04:46,360 --> 02:04:48,760
Speaker 1: immerse myself in that world even more. But those are

2350
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:51,040
Speaker 1: those are kind of my top ones right now. It's great.

2351
02:04:51,120 --> 02:04:53,120
Speaker 1: Are you gonna go up to the b h A Rendezvous?

2352
02:04:53,960 --> 02:04:56,640
Speaker 1: I would love to. I'm trying to figure out if

2353
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:59,000
Speaker 1: it works with the schedule. I really really want to,

2354
02:04:59,080 --> 02:05:01,520
Speaker 1: though I've wanted to quite a while. You think about it,

2355
02:05:01,600 --> 02:05:03,960
Speaker 1: I think it'd be I think you would, especially now

2356
02:05:04,000 --> 02:05:07,120
Speaker 1: that you've you've dipped your toes into those waters yourself

2357
02:05:07,200 --> 02:05:10,360
Speaker 1: and and experience that big game hunt. I think you

2358
02:05:10,360 --> 02:05:13,040
Speaker 1: would get a kick gotta getting to engage more of

2359
02:05:13,080 --> 02:05:16,920
Speaker 1: the folks there. That events awesome event full of people

2360
02:05:17,000 --> 02:05:20,680
Speaker 1: fired up about these things we're talking about. And uh, interestingly,

2361
02:05:20,720 --> 02:05:22,640
Speaker 1: I haven't mentioned this on the podcast yet, but I

2362
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:25,400
Speaker 1: will be one of the featured speakers at the big

2363
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:29,840
Speaker 1: Storytelling night at the National Convention, so I'll be there too.

2364
02:05:30,160 --> 02:05:32,640
Speaker 1: We're cooking elk upstairs in the croc pot as we

2365
02:05:32,680 --> 02:05:36,680
Speaker 1: record this, so I've been smelling the elk um really man,

2366
02:05:36,720 --> 02:05:38,760
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I sound like a dumbass on your

2367
02:05:38,800 --> 02:05:42,320
Speaker 1: podcast taught about this, but like life change, I would

2368
02:05:42,320 --> 02:05:44,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't think at age forty four, I would have thought

2369
02:05:44,160 --> 02:05:46,720
Speaker 1: you kind of maxed out a lot of your you know,

2370
02:05:46,880 --> 02:05:50,800
Speaker 1: peak life experiences. But that Elk hunt with Adam Gall

2371
02:05:50,840 --> 02:05:54,640
Speaker 1: of timber to Table Guide service was we could. I'll

2372
02:05:54,640 --> 02:05:57,640
Speaker 1: give you the full download on that sometime. Yeah, I definitely,

2373
02:05:57,680 --> 02:05:59,320
Speaker 1: I definitely want to talk to you more about that.

2374
02:05:59,720 --> 02:06:02,560
Speaker 1: If I, if I didn't have to piece so bad,

2375
02:06:02,600 --> 02:06:05,000
Speaker 1: my eyeballs are about to float out of my head,

2376
02:06:05,160 --> 02:06:07,840
Speaker 1: not just me, I would say we should talk about

2377
02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:10,800
Speaker 1: it now. But but we're both old men now, so

2378
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:13,440
Speaker 1: we we don't have that long on the phone these days.

2379
02:06:15,200 --> 02:06:17,240
Speaker 1: And this has been a lot of fun. I I

2380
02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:20,120
Speaker 1: really do appreciate your sharing this stuff. You're you're always

2381
02:06:20,160 --> 02:06:23,120
Speaker 1: a great resource when it comes to you know, both

2382
02:06:23,160 --> 02:06:26,920
Speaker 1: talking about these ideas yourself or you know, recommending books

2383
02:06:26,920 --> 02:06:29,880
Speaker 1: and people to dive into further. So I knew this

2384
02:06:29,920 --> 02:06:31,960
Speaker 1: would be fun, and it was. I appreciate it. I

2385
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:33,840
Speaker 1: appreciate it, man. I appreciate you have me only. I

2386
02:06:33,840 --> 02:06:36,200
Speaker 1: appreciate you writing your book. I appreciate all the hard

2387
02:06:36,200 --> 02:06:38,800
Speaker 1: work you put into everything you put out in the world.

2388
02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:40,920
Speaker 1: It's it's making the world a better place. I really

2389
02:06:40,960 --> 02:06:44,080
Speaker 1: really do appreciate it. I thank you. Thank you for

2390
02:06:44,120 --> 02:06:46,880
Speaker 1: saying that, where where can folks go if they want

2391
02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:49,360
Speaker 1: to hear your podcast or get signed up for your

2392
02:06:49,360 --> 02:06:52,040
Speaker 1: book recommendations or anything else you're doing. Where can they

2393
02:06:52,040 --> 02:06:55,320
Speaker 1: find all that? Yeah, easiest spot Mountain and Pririe dot com.

2394
02:06:55,480 --> 02:06:57,680
Speaker 1: Just go to that you can. I've got a uh

2395
02:06:58,200 --> 02:07:00,879
Speaker 1: every other month, I sending out book recommend Nation, six

2396
02:07:01,040 --> 02:07:05,400
Speaker 1: emails a year, no ads, no spam, nothing, just five

2397
02:07:05,480 --> 02:07:08,200
Speaker 1: or six books I've read and recently read recently and

2398
02:07:08,280 --> 02:07:11,240
Speaker 1: highly recommended. I've got a weekly email called good News

2399
02:07:11,320 --> 02:07:14,600
Speaker 1: from the American West. We're only good news, no negative stuff.

2400
02:07:15,160 --> 02:07:17,440
Speaker 1: And then, uh, you know, I'm on all the social

2401
02:07:17,440 --> 02:07:19,680
Speaker 1: media stuff, so I would love to love to connect

2402
02:07:19,720 --> 02:07:23,160
Speaker 1: with anybody. Awesome, well ed, Let's do it again soon.

2403
02:07:23,240 --> 02:07:28,160
Speaker 1: I really thank you, and that is a rap. Thanks

2404
02:07:28,160 --> 02:07:30,600
Speaker 1: for tuning into this one. I hope you enjoyed it.

2405
02:07:30,640 --> 02:07:33,120
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming along with this journey over the

2406
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:36,280
Speaker 1: course of Conservation Month. I don't know about you, but

2407
02:07:36,320 --> 02:07:40,360
Speaker 1: I'm feeling re energized and excited to get out there

2408
02:07:40,400 --> 02:07:43,080
Speaker 1: to get my hands dirty, whether that be planning a tree,

2409
02:07:43,720 --> 02:07:47,480
Speaker 1: or dialing a phone number, or reading a book, whatever

2410
02:07:47,480 --> 02:07:49,640
Speaker 1: it is. Um. You know, I know we've got a

2411
02:07:49,640 --> 02:07:51,280
Speaker 1: lot of work to do to get ready for white

2412
02:07:51,320 --> 02:07:54,560
Speaker 1: tail season coming up. And not that many more months.

2413
02:07:54,600 --> 02:07:56,560
Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy how quickly it's coming up on us.

2414
02:07:56,840 --> 02:07:58,960
Speaker 1: But at the same time, there's a lot of stuff

2415
02:07:59,000 --> 02:08:01,120
Speaker 1: we can do right now to make sure that our

2416
02:08:01,160 --> 02:08:04,400
Speaker 1: future deer hunting seasons are bright as well, so I

2417
02:08:04,440 --> 02:08:07,400
Speaker 1: hope you'll join me in that too, So until next time,

2418
02:08:07,440 --> 02:08:11,920
Speaker 1: my friends, I appreciate you, and stay wired to hunt.