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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Come, I'm Holly fry So. It's

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Speaker 1: been a while since we have talked about Native American history,

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Speaker 1: which means the day we're going to talk about that

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Speaker 1: time that a confederation of Native American tribes destroyed about

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Speaker 1: half of the American army. Strangely enough, this battle does

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Speaker 1: not have an official name. Really, It's not called the

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Speaker 1: Battle of so and So. It just gets referred to

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Speaker 1: as St. Clair's defeat for the most part, Holly, have

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Speaker 1: you ever heard this story before? I haven't accept in

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Speaker 1: what you have told me as you have been researching it.

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Speaker 1: I get the occasional I am of Oh my goodness, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have never heard about it either. So that is

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Speaker 1: why we are talking about it today. And the background

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Speaker 1: on this one actually starts with the Revolutionary War, in which,

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Speaker 1: of course Great Britain and its American colonies fought over

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Speaker 1: whether those colonies could govern themselves as an independent nation.

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Speaker 1: The colonies won their independence in case that was a spoiler,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and the terms for the end of the

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Speaker 1: war were set down in the Treaty of Paris in

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Speaker 1: seventeen eighty three. As we mentioned in our recent episode

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Speaker 1: on the Battle of Guildford Courthouse, many but not all,

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Speaker 1: Native American tribes had sided with Britain during the Revolutionary War,

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Speaker 1: and a big reason for this was that native people's

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Speaker 1: hopes that Britain's influence would slow down the colony's westward

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Speaker 1: westward expansion, which was encroaching farther and farther into territory

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Speaker 1: that had been occupied by just enormous numbers of indigenous

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Speaker 1: nations for centuries. Great Britain didn't discuss the Treaty of

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Speaker 1: Paris with its native allies before entering into negotiations, and

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Speaker 1: it made no provisions for them instead. At the end

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Speaker 1: of the Revolutionary War, Britain handed a massive stretch of

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Speaker 1: territory spanning south from the Great Lakes, bordered on the

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Speaker 1: west by the Mississippi River and on the south and

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Speaker 1: east by the Ohio River, over to its former colonies.

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Speaker 1: Florida and most of the land west of the Mississippi

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Speaker 1: were controlled by Spain at this point. Britain did continue

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Speaker 1: to occupy some forts and outposts that were in and

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Speaker 1: along this area. It had handed over, and it did

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Speaker 1: so for thirteen years after the signing of the Treaty

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Speaker 1: of Paris. Britain argued that the United States nonpayment of

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Speaker 1: war debts totally justified their doing this. From these outposts,

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Speaker 1: Britain encouraged native tribes to resist American expansion, sometimes providing

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Speaker 1: them with weapons and supplies. But beyond that, this territory,

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Speaker 1: which would eventually become known as Northwest Territory, was now

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Speaker 1: in American hands, and the people who were indigenous to

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Speaker 1: that territory were basically on their own. Once it was

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Speaker 1: controlled by the fledgling United States, westward expansion into the territory,

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Speaker 1: of course, increased dramatically. The plan was to methodically survey

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Speaker 1: all of this land, divided up, and then sell it

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Speaker 1: in such a way that people purchasing it could establish

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Speaker 1: settlements that would attract people to the West's fertile farmland.

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Speaker 1: This whole process was riddled with problems. Though people advertised

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Speaker 1: land that they didn't actually have to sell, They distributed

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Speaker 1: parcels with borders that overlapped one another, people double sold

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Speaker 1: the same land, and even so people kept on moving west.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, it wasn't like the West was empty,

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Speaker 1: there were already a lot of people living there. Some

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Speaker 1: of them were squatters, which the government dealt with by

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Speaker 1: evicting them and burning down their cabins, but many of

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Speaker 1: them were native people, either indigenous to the area or

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Speaker 1: forced to move there after being displaced from land that

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Speaker 1: they had been living in farther to the east. Finally,

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Speaker 1: the Second Continental Congress passed the Northwest Ordinance on July

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Speaker 1: thirteenth see. The Northwest Ordinance set up how the Northwest

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Speaker 1: Territory should be governed. It gave this territory a bill

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Speaker 1: of rights and a process for states that were established

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Speaker 1: in the territory to then be admitted into the Union.

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Speaker 1: The Northwest Ordinance also specified that there would be no

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Speaker 1: slavery or in involuntary servitude in the territory, and in

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Speaker 1: Article three, quote the utmost good faith shall always be

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Speaker 1: observed towards the Indians. Their lands and property shall never

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Speaker 1: be taken from them without their consent, and in their

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Speaker 1: property rights and liberty, they shall never be invaded or

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Speaker 1: disturbed unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress.

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Speaker 1: But laws founded in justice and humanity shall from time

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Speaker 1: to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them,

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Speaker 1: and for preserving peace and friendship with them. So, in

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Speaker 1: what should not come as a surprise, this turned out

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Speaker 1: not to be true at all, and we will t

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Speaker 1: talk about more about how after a brief word from

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Speaker 1: a sponsor to return to our story. When it came

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Speaker 1: to treating with the Native American peoples of the Northwest Territory,

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Speaker 1: in spite of the language in the Northwest Ordinance, the

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Speaker 1: United States government did not really approach this process particularly fairly.

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Speaker 1: Those quote just and lawful wars authorized by Congress were

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Speaker 1: not an idle threat. They were basically the way the

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Speaker 1: United States was going to resolve disputes with Native American

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Speaker 1: people's over land. Wars would be fought over land, and

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Speaker 1: the condition of peace would be handing that land over

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Speaker 1: to the United States. In some cases, tribes had actually

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Speaker 1: ceded territory to the government already sometimes too Great Britain

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Speaker 1: prior to the Revolutionary War, and sometimes this was done

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Speaker 1: under duress. Tribes also ceded territory that actually belonged to

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Speaker 1: their adversaries or spoke for their allies without discussing it

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Speaker 1: with them first, so it was kind of a tangle

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Speaker 1: and complicating all of this was the fact that many

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Speaker 1: different tribes hunted, fished, gathered, and even grew crops in

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Speaker 1: the same places. Since many migrated between summer and winter

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Speaker 1: dwellings where they had hunting villages that were used only

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Speaker 1: in the winter, a vast amount of land was actually

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Speaker 1: used by many different tribes. Even if the government's negotiators

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Speaker 1: did come to the table with good intentions, which we've

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Speaker 1: made pretty clear was not always the case. Uh they

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Speaker 1: were generally trying to make treaties with tribes one at

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Speaker 1: a time over land that was often used by many.

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Speaker 1: This all means that following the Revolutionary War, a series

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Speaker 1: of treaties, sometimes not even signed with the right native leaders,

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Speaker 1: basically boiled down to this tribe will seed its land

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Speaker 1: to the United States. In exchange, the United States will

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Speaker 1: stop fighting this tribe. That was really the heart of

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Speaker 1: the matter. These included the Treaty of Fort Stanwix at

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Speaker 1: eighty four, the Treaty of Fort McIntosh in seventeen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: and the Treaty of Fort Finney in seventeen eighty six,

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Speaker 1: among others. And of course all of these treaties also

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Speaker 1: had their own names from the points of view of

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Speaker 1: the native tribes that they were with. As it became

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Speaker 1: increasingly clear to the Native peoples of the Northwest Territory

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Speaker 1: that they could not individually reach a fair agreement with

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Speaker 1: the United States government or defend themselves from a nation

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Speaker 1: that was clearly willing to go to war over land,

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Speaker 1: they began to form a confederacy. And so, just in

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Speaker 1: case people are confused about all of these dates, all

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Speaker 1: of these treaties were happening at the same time that

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Speaker 1: Northwest Territory was being established. In the Northwest Ordinance was

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Speaker 1: being drafted. So it was all this giant soup of negotiations.

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Speaker 1: So forming a confederacy was not a new idea to

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Speaker 1: the North American Native people's at all. At various points,

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Speaker 1: native tribes and bands had formed both temporary and long

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Speaker 1: lasting confederacies for a variety of reasons. These included survival

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Speaker 1: during times of poor weather, resisting the incursions of other

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Speaker 1: native and non native settlers, and other reading other reasons.

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Speaker 1: The Hoddana Shawnee, also known as the Iroquois Confederacy, was

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Speaker 1: one of these existing confederacies, and it actually became part

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Speaker 1: of the new confederacy that was formed in the Northwest Territory.

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Speaker 1: Other tribes that became part of this confederacy included the

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Speaker 1: Council of Three Fires, which is the Chippewa, Ottawa and

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Speaker 1: Pottawa Tomy, the Shawnee Nation, the Kickapoo, and the Miami,

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Speaker 1: among many others. These allied tribes eventually became known as

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Speaker 1: the Northwest Confederacy, the Wabash Confederacy, or the Miami Confederacy,

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Speaker 1: and it was formed after delegates from all of these

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Speaker 1: different tribes and existing confederacies met near Detroit in seventeen

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Speaker 1: eighties six. In seventy Arthur Saint Clair, who sometimes you'll

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Speaker 1: hear it pronounced more like Sinclair, and there's some debate

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Speaker 1: about the correctness of which one, but we're going with

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Speaker 1: Saint Clair for this episode. It was also Scottish and

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Speaker 1: in Scotland apparently sometimes it's Sinkler. Yeah, so there are

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Speaker 1: some options. We're picking Saint Clair. That's what we got.

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Speaker 1: So in seventeen eighty eight, Arthur Saint Clair was appointed

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Speaker 1: the Governor of the Northwest Territory. So he was born

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Speaker 1: in Scotland in seventeen thirty four seventeen thirty six. The

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Speaker 1: records aren't entirely clear, and he was also educated in

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Speaker 1: Scotland and eventually he joined the Royal American Regiment. He

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Speaker 1: had combat experience in the colonies during the French and

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Speaker 1: Indian War, and after marrying the niece of the Governor

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Speaker 1: of Massachusetts, st Clair settled in Pennsylvania, where he took

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Speaker 1: on a number of administrative duties, including being the register

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Speaker 1: of deeds, as a surveyor, and as a judge in

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Speaker 1: probate court. He fought on the patriots side during the

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Speaker 1: Revolutionary War, and he had been President of the Continental Congress,

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Speaker 1: so St Clair had a combined set of both military

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Speaker 1: and government experiences that made him a logical choice for

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Speaker 1: this post. One of the things he was supposed to do,

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Speaker 1: and this role, was to draft a new treaty with

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Speaker 1: all of the applicable Native American tribes in the area.

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Speaker 1: And this treaty was, as Lee, meant to cement the

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Speaker 1: earlier treaties that had already been signed with individual tribes

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Speaker 1: make them cover everything. So he was tasked to some

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Speaker 1: degree with sorting out a big mess, and at the

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Speaker 1: same time, unbeknownst to the native people he was treating with,

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Speaker 1: Saint Clair was also tasked with pitting tribes against one

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Speaker 1: another so they would no longer present a united front

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Speaker 1: against westward expansion. Goes back to that whole thing about

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Speaker 1: whether we were treating with people fairly and evenly. After

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Speaker 1: a series of negotiations, St. Clair and native representatives signed

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Speaker 1: two different treaties in January nine. They were both known

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Speaker 1: as the Treaty of Fort Harmar also looked at pronunciations

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Speaker 1: for that and did not find one. One was a

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Speaker 1: treaty with the Six Nations, which were the Hodeanashani. The

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Speaker 1: other was called the Treaty with the Wyandot et cetera,

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Speaker 1: and that one included quote Stims and warriors of the

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Speaker 1: Wyandot dell A where Ottawa, Chippewa, Patawanama and Sack nations

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Speaker 1: on the other part. These two treaties established peace and

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Speaker 1: set boundary lines, and St. Claire's view the two treaties,

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Speaker 1: also because they were signed with two different sets of

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Speaker 1: native tribes, would make a wedge between those tribes and

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Speaker 1: sort of break up their united front. However, many tribes

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Speaker 1: living farther west in the Northwest Territory actually refused to

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Speaker 1: sign or even acknowledge these treaties. One was the Miami,

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Speaker 1: who held that this land was theirs and they had

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Speaker 1: never agreed to give it up, and that the tribes

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Speaker 1: that had spoken for them did not actually have the

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Speaker 1: authority to do so. And the Miami people's influence was significant.

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Speaker 1: Many refugees from other tribes had wound up settling in

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Speaker 1: and around the Miami Nation's capital of Kekionga. In the

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Speaker 1: spring of sevente a trader and Indian agent familiar with

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Speaker 1: the tribes and the region was sent in to try

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Speaker 1: to negotiate with the Miami and the other tribes who

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Speaker 1: were living farther west and closer to the Great Lakes. However,

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Speaker 1: drawing on the ties of their confederacy, the Miami and

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Speaker 1: various other members that he talked to, refused to negotiate

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Speaker 1: with him without consulting with one another, and in some

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Speaker 1: cases with a British representative he was stationed nearby in Detroit.

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Speaker 1: This put the treaty process at an impass, which meant

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Speaker 1: that the United States started to prepare for war. And

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about all of that after

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Speaker 1: we pause once again for a break to talk about

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Speaker 1: one of the great sponsors that keeps this show on

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Speaker 1: the air. So to get back to our story, the

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Speaker 1: Continental Army, which had been formed to fight on the

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Speaker 1: patriots side and the Revolutionary War, was dissolved in se four,

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Speaker 1: the year after the signing of the Treaty of Paris.

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Speaker 1: To a lot of people in the newly formed United States,

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Speaker 1: a standing army was antithetical to what their republic was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be about. Taking the Continental Army's place was

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Speaker 1: the First American Regiment. This was a volunteer force that

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Speaker 1: was mainly focused on defending the frontier for the first

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Speaker 1: several years after the First American Regiment was created, it

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Speaker 1: was really quite small and it was supplemented with members

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Speaker 1: of state militia as needed. In June of sevente so,

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Speaker 1: after all of these events that we talked about before

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Speaker 1: the break, a First Regiment patrol found a body in

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Speaker 1: the Northwest Territory, and this body had been shot with

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Speaker 1: both bullets and arrows. People obviously found us to be

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Speaker 1: very threatening and started to call for a war to

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Speaker 1: deal with the quote Indian problem. Two months later, General

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Speaker 1: Josiah Harmer set out from Fort Washington, near what is

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Speaker 1: now Cincinnati with about three d and twenty regulars and

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Speaker 1: about militia to destroy Miami villages along the Maumi River.

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Speaker 1: Smaller forces moved in at the same time from different

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Speaker 1: directions on similar missions. St Clair, wanting to preserve the

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Speaker 1: diplomatic ties that were already in place, sent messages to

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Speaker 1: British outposts and the tribes that had already signed treaties

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Speaker 1: with the government that this act was not against them,

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Speaker 1: but only against the quote Benditti Indians. Harmer's force found

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Speaker 1: several villages which had mostly been abandoned, and he put

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Speaker 1: them to the torch. He also burned large storehouses of food.

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Speaker 1: At these villages. His men killed what little resistance they encountered. However,

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Speaker 1: on the way back to Fort Washington, his force split up,

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Speaker 1: and in the process they were goaded into chasing a

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Speaker 1: Native fighting force into what was basically an ambush. So

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Speaker 1: even though Harmer successfully burned some things down, the American

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Speaker 1: force experienced really heavy casualties, and the whole campaign was

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Speaker 1: put down as a failure. Native raids on American settlements

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Speaker 1: increased through the following summer and winter. Finally, Henry Knox,

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Speaker 1: the Secretary of War, requested more troops to increase the

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Speaker 1: size of the army available to fight against the Northwest

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Speaker 1: Territories native tribes, and in March of sev George Washington

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Speaker 1: put Arthur Saint Air in command of it. As before,

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Speaker 1: this new fighting force still added to its numbers by

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Speaker 1: relying on troops from state militia's. With this larger army,

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Speaker 1: st Clair plan a new campaign. The first phase was

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Speaker 1: to be led by Captain Merritt Scott, whose son had

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Speaker 1: actually been killed in Harmer's previous failed campaign. Scott led

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Speaker 1: a force of eight hundred mounted militia along the Wabash

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Speaker 1: River in May of sev They stormed a series of settlements,

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Speaker 1: killing thirty two people who had who were later described

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Speaker 1: as warriors. They took more than fifty captives, and they

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Speaker 1: experienced very few casualties of their own. The plan was

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Speaker 1: for st Clair to lead a larger campaign immediately after

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Speaker 1: Scott's campaign concluded. However, st Clair, who had gout, was

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Speaker 1: actually ill and didn't actually get to their base of

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Speaker 1: operations at Fort Washington until the middle of May, at

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Speaker 1: which point he found it woefully undermanned, and so they

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Speaker 1: pushed their start date until August first. The next phased

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Speaker 1: against the Native people in the Northwest territory was led

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Speaker 1: by Lieutenant Colonel James Wilkinson, who destroyed a series of

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Speaker 1: Native Native settlements, including several that Scott had previously destroyed

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Speaker 1: that had been rebuilt in the interim. Then, finally st

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Speaker 1: Clair and his troops left Fort Washington in September, of

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Speaker 1: months behind schedule. At this point he had an army

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Speaker 1: of about two thousand men, along with about twenty Native

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Speaker 1: American allies that he had intended to use a scouts. However,

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Speaker 1: st clair scouts weren't actually local to the area, and

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Speaker 1: consequently they weren't particularly effective. St Clair started an extremely

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Speaker 1: slow trek towards kek Yanga, clearing a path through really

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Speaker 1: difficult to rain and stopping to build forts along the way.

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Speaker 1: The first one they built was Fort Hamilton's, which is

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Speaker 1: about thirty five miles outside of Fort Washington. About forty

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Speaker 1: five miles from there, he then built Fort Jefferson. They

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Speaker 1: had trouble with cold, wet weather and impenetrable mud. They

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Speaker 1: had to build bridges to move cannons and other heavy

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Speaker 1: equipment over rivers and ravines, and as the season grew later,

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Speaker 1: frost and ice ruined the foraging available for the horses

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Speaker 1: and the other pack animals. Another big problem was dwindling manpower.

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Speaker 1: Desertions were a big issue, especially as the journey dragged

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Speaker 1: on and the season got colder. And then there were

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Speaker 1: the volunteers who had signed up for a six month

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Speaker 1: enlistment there six months legitimately ended along the way, and

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Speaker 1: then they were all discharged and sent back to Fort Washington.

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Speaker 1: On top of that, they were constantly critically low on supplies,

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Speaker 1: in part because the newly created process for supplying the

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Speaker 1: newly created army was corrupt, thanks to everything from nepotism

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Speaker 1: to paying for supplies in advance only for them to

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Speaker 1: never be delivered. A number of camp followers, including women

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Speaker 1: and children, also added to the number of mouths to feed,

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Speaker 1: and eventually St. Clair had to send his infantry regulars

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Speaker 1: to look for a supply convoy that had been delayed

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Speaker 1: and then protected once they found it. This meant the

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Speaker 1: loss of some of his most experienced soldiers. This also

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Speaker 1: meant that they were a large, loud, slow moving force,

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Speaker 1: which was, unbeknownst to St. Clair, constantly being observed, monitored,

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Speaker 1: and reported on by the Western Confederacy's own spies who

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Speaker 1: were local to the area and therefore a lot more

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Speaker 1: effective than St. Clair spies. So basically St. Clair knew

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Speaker 1: nothing about the movements of the Native American force in

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Speaker 1: the area, but they knew everything about his. This was

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Speaker 1: definitely a case of him underestimating the abilities of his adversary.

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Speaker 1: By the night of November three, St. Clair was down

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Speaker 1: to four hundred soldiers, and that night they set up

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Speaker 1: a camp next to the Wabash River, with the Kentucky

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Speaker 1: militia on one side and the regulars and volunteers on

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Speaker 1: the other. Neither part of this camp was fortified. That evening,

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Speaker 1: a party of Miami men was spotted not far away,

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Speaker 1: and soldiers were sent out to intercept them. When they

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Speaker 1: came back, they told the second in command, Major General

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Speaker 1: Richard Butler, that they expected a larger attack would be

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Speaker 1: coming in the morning. However, Saint Clair himself had already

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Speaker 1: gone to bed, and Butler did not pass this message

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Speaker 1: onto him. He also took no further steps to secure

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Speaker 1: the camp after getting this advanced heads up that they

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Speaker 1: might see some action in the morning. On November fourth,

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Speaker 1: a fighting force from the Western Confederacy attacked from both

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Speaker 1: sides of the river. The Kentucky militia, isolated from the

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Speaker 1: rest of the American force by being alone on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the river, could offer very little support,

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Speaker 1: and the main body of the American camp had arranged

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Speaker 1: itself into two lines. As the Native American fighting force

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Speaker 1: approached from both flanks, the front line fell back through

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Speaker 1: the back one, which caused nothing but chaos. The Western

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Speaker 1: Confederacies men, who were led by a Little Turtle of

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Speaker 1: the Miami, Blue Jacket of the Shawnee and others, fall

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Speaker 1: nimbly from within tree cover, and they surrounded the American

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Speaker 1: force really quickly and started picking people off. The men

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Speaker 1: who were manning the army's artillery were left undefended and

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Speaker 1: were mostly killed before they could use their weapons that

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Speaker 1: even the ones that were able to fire had them

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Speaker 1: aimed too high to do much good. Over the course

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Speaker 1: of a four hour battle, the American army was basically

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Speaker 1: slaughtered along with most of the camp followers. Those who

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Speaker 1: survived did so after mounted troops plowed an escape route

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Speaker 1: through part of the Western Confederacy's fighting force, and in

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Speaker 1: the retreat, the Americans had to abandon an enormous amount

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Speaker 1: of gear, including two forges, multiple teams of oxen fully

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Speaker 1: loaded pack animals, tents, muskets, and bayonets, all of the

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Speaker 1: tools that they had been using to clear the trail

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Speaker 1: and build bridges, and just on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: They basically left behind everything they needed. The supplies lost

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Speaker 1: were worth about thirty two thousand dollars, and that's in

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Speaker 1: that day's calculations, so that would be more than eight

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars in today's currency as a rough equivalent.

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Speaker 1: Among the American force, nine and eighteen were killed, including

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Speaker 1: Major General Butler, and two hundred seventy six were wounded. St.

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Speaker 1: Clair's force was using a whole lot of the army's

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Speaker 1: available total manpower, and so this one action wiped out

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Speaker 1: almost half of the United States Army. This uh St

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Speaker 1: Clair absolutely had not anticipated that the Native Americans living

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Speaker 1: in the Northwest Territory were capable of forming a confederacy

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Speaker 1: like this and fighting together. And to be clear, sometimes

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Speaker 1: this was even in spite of not speaking the same

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Speaker 1: languages as one another. This event had a huge, far

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Speaker 1: reaching series of consequences. One was that the army for

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Speaker 1: the US got a lot bigger. The tremendous loss of

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Speaker 1: Saint Clair's army led to the first congressional investigation, Saint

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Speaker 1: Clair was ultimately found not to be at fault, although

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Speaker 1: he was forced to resign his man It was ultimately

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Speaker 1: blamed on inadequate forces, mismanagement, and inexperienced and undisciplined troops.

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Speaker 1: The part that gets left out of that is the

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Speaker 1: fact that the Native force did an extremely good job

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Speaker 1: of combining their resources and then fighting in a way

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Speaker 1: that their enemy did not expect, which was just surround

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Speaker 1: them and fight from the trees and God's chaos. This

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Speaker 1: congressional investigation also looked at the government's executive branch and

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Speaker 1: the corruption and inefficiency within the military contractor system that

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Speaker 1: had caused Saint Clair to have so many problems getting supplies.

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Speaker 1: That aspect of the investigation started to cement the idea

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Speaker 1: of executive privilege as President George Washington figured out how

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Speaker 1: to handle information that would have implicated the Secretary of

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Speaker 1: War Knox and Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton's and

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Speaker 1: all of these issues of fraud and nepotism that we're

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Speaker 1: plaguing the army's supply chain because the United States was

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Speaker 1: not willing to give up the Northwest Territory it mounted

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Speaker 1: yet another campaign in seventeen ninety four. This one, however,

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Speaker 1: went the opposite way. Major General Anthony mad Anthony Wayne,

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Speaker 1: the new commander in chief of the recently expanded Army,

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Speaker 1: defeated the Western Confederacy at the Battle of Fallen Timbers

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Speaker 1: on August See. The Treaty of Greenville was signed the

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Speaker 1: following year, and this was called a quote treaty of

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Speaker 1: peace between the United States of America and the tribes

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Speaker 1: of Indians called the Wyandots, Delawares, Shawnees, Ottawa's, Chippawa's, Patawatama's, Miami's,

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Speaker 1: eel Rivers, weigh As, Kickapoos, Pianshaws, and Kakaskias. So once again,

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Speaker 1: this was a treaty that ended hostilities against the native

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Speaker 1: population for the price of seating their land to the

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Speaker 1: United States. This was not the last time, of course,

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Speaker 1: that this would happen. That is an ongoing theme of

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Speaker 1: relations between the United States government and Native tribes going

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Speaker 1: on long beyond that. Do you have a listener mail

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00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: that is maybe not quite so dire? No, my listener

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00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: mail is not dire. Uh. It is from Rachel and

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00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: Rachel says Hi, Tracy and Holly and then she talks

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00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: about where she works, so I'm skipping that part for privacy.

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Speaker 1: This is about our moonshine episode, and Rachel says the

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Speaker 1: government taxation of high proof spirits is still a very

404
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: real issue even today, with most small skip distilleries getting

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00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: only about forty of which each bottle costs after all

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00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: the taxes and fees. Federal and state governments are slowly

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00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: but surely starting to make changes that will benefit these

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00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: small distilleries so that they can grow and serve their

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00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: local economies. The distillery that she works at, which I

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00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: am remaining nameless, has been in business since when they

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Speaker 1: started with one sixty gallon copper still. We now have

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00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: a six hundred and sixty gallons still and have ordered

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Speaker 1: a second still that we'll have some time next year.

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Speaker 1: We work hard to stay within the law, but it's

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00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: these see to see why someone would want to make moonshine.

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Speaker 1: You stand to make a lot more money that way. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then she talks about a moonshine festival that's nearby

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Speaker 1: every Memorial Day weekend and says, I'm not sure of

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00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: the history, but I believe it's been going on before

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00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: moonshine was made legal in Ohio a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: That's moonshine in quotes, because like most spirits enthusiasts, it's

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00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: not really moonshine if it's legal, but Ohio thinks it is.

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Speaker 1: And then she says, if we ever stopped by forever

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Speaker 1: in her part of the world, we can stop by

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00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: and have a tour of the distillery, which I'd be

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00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: up for. That sounds great to me. Yes, thank you, Rachel.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Rachel. With that that update about how all

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00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: of the extremely high taxes on spirit that we talked

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00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: about in that Moonshine episode still exists and affect things today.

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Speaker 1: History dot tumbler dot com um and we're also on

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