1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:22,824 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Matthew Campbell, and I co authored The Fuji, 2 00:00:22,984 --> 00:00:25,784 Speaker 1: the Fugitive and the FBI for Bloomberg Business Week, and 3 00:00:25,824 --> 00:00:30,584 Speaker 1: it is the story of the Week. In nineteen ninety six, 4 00:00:30,784 --> 00:00:33,744 Speaker 1: the Fujis were the biggest act in hip hop by far. 5 00:00:34,464 --> 00:00:38,664 Speaker 1: A year later they broke up, and since then things 6 00:00:38,704 --> 00:00:41,144 Speaker 1: have not gone all that well for the three members 7 00:00:41,144 --> 00:00:44,504 Speaker 1: of the band. Why Cliff John was investigated by the 8 00:00:44,544 --> 00:00:47,504 Speaker 1: Attorney General of New York for taking half the money 9 00:00:47,504 --> 00:00:51,144 Speaker 1: as charity raised for earthquake relief in Haiti. Lauren Hill 10 00:00:51,624 --> 00:00:54,904 Speaker 1: spent three months in prison for failing to pay taxes. 11 00:00:56,024 --> 00:00:59,504 Speaker 1: But all that is nothing compared to what's going on 12 00:00:59,624 --> 00:01:09,264 Speaker 1: with the third member of the Fujis, Praz writing his 13 00:01:09,384 --> 00:01:12,584 Speaker 1: hard Who's got that kind of time when you're already 14 00:01:12,704 --> 00:01:15,744 Speaker 1: busy trying to be joel Stein until it turns on 15 00:01:15,864 --> 00:01:19,784 Speaker 1: a mic maybe twiddles and knob because a journalist Frand 16 00:01:19,864 --> 00:01:24,344 Speaker 1: has got in that jewel job Puttory single story. Just 17 00:01:24,704 --> 00:01:31,304 Speaker 1: listen to smart people speak conversation. Feeling information is a 18 00:01:31,424 --> 00:01:43,864 Speaker 1: story up. Raz Michelle, the least famous member of the Fujis, 19 00:01:44,104 --> 00:01:47,904 Speaker 1: has effectively blown up his entire life by cosplaying as 20 00:01:47,944 --> 00:01:51,944 Speaker 1: a diplomat with a Malaysian billionaire. It sounds like I 21 00:01:52,024 --> 00:01:55,264 Speaker 1: just filled out a mad lib. Proz got tangled up 22 00:01:55,304 --> 00:01:59,984 Speaker 1: with Joel, who at one time perhaps had more liquid 23 00:02:00,064 --> 00:02:03,104 Speaker 1: cash than anyone in the world. The two of them 24 00:02:03,144 --> 00:02:06,544 Speaker 1: traveled around the globe, making deals with foreign governments and 25 00:02:06,784 --> 00:02:10,224 Speaker 1: running from the law. It's out was like an absurdist 26 00:02:10,264 --> 00:02:14,384 Speaker 1: buddy comedy, and it would almost be funny if it 27 00:02:14,464 --> 00:02:18,464 Speaker 1: wasn't for the very real and potentially very long prison 28 00:02:18,504 --> 00:02:24,264 Speaker 1: sentence looming over him. Matthew Campbell untangled the baffling story 29 00:02:24,304 --> 00:02:29,064 Speaker 1: of Priz Michelle's downfall. Matthew, this might be the most complicated, 30 00:02:29,904 --> 00:02:33,864 Speaker 1: crazy story we've done on this podcast, So settle in 31 00:02:34,104 --> 00:02:36,824 Speaker 1: for the next seven hours of interviewing. That'll just about 32 00:02:36,864 --> 00:02:40,064 Speaker 1: cover at seven hours, I think, And like all great 33 00:02:40,064 --> 00:02:44,064 Speaker 1: stories of international political corruption, this one starts with a 34 00:02:44,144 --> 00:02:47,984 Speaker 1: meat cute How exactly did the Rapper Prize meet a 35 00:02:47,984 --> 00:02:53,704 Speaker 1: Malaysian businessman named Joe Lowe. The origins of this go 36 00:02:53,784 --> 00:02:56,544 Speaker 1: all the way back to two thousand and six when 37 00:02:57,104 --> 00:03:01,864 Speaker 1: Joe Lowe, this Malaysian financier who would later become very famous, 38 00:03:02,704 --> 00:03:06,944 Speaker 1: was kind of a budding entrepreneur and he was beginning 39 00:03:06,944 --> 00:03:11,104 Speaker 1: to emerge on kind of the global party circuit, turning 40 00:03:11,184 --> 00:03:13,744 Speaker 1: up in nightclubs all over the world, and one of 41 00:03:13,784 --> 00:03:16,864 Speaker 1: those nightclubs was a place in the Meatpacking District in 42 00:03:16,904 --> 00:03:21,544 Speaker 1: New York where he met pros Michelle Pross is the 43 00:03:21,944 --> 00:03:23,624 Speaker 1: one of the members, one of the three members with 44 00:03:23,704 --> 00:03:25,984 Speaker 1: Lauren Hill and why Cliff shown of the Fuji's who 45 00:03:25,984 --> 00:03:27,944 Speaker 1: everybody knows. Of course, he's kind of the one we 46 00:03:27,984 --> 00:03:31,024 Speaker 1: forget though, right yeah, yeah, he had less of a 47 00:03:31,024 --> 00:03:34,104 Speaker 1: solo career than the other two. He had one hit, 48 00:03:34,144 --> 00:03:37,584 Speaker 1: which was the Ghetto Super Scott Superstar exactly. Yeah, so 49 00:03:37,904 --> 00:03:40,224 Speaker 1: he's in this club. Actually, a promoter had asked him 50 00:03:40,264 --> 00:03:43,224 Speaker 1: to come to the club to meet Joel because Joel 51 00:03:43,584 --> 00:03:46,544 Speaker 1: liked to hang out with celebrities. This is, you know, 52 00:03:46,584 --> 00:03:50,504 Speaker 1: the pre financial crisis salad days of New York. There's 53 00:03:50,504 --> 00:03:54,424 Speaker 1: a lot of money flying around, and some Wall Street 54 00:03:54,464 --> 00:03:57,584 Speaker 1: guys or finance bros pay the club to get on 55 00:03:57,624 --> 00:04:00,784 Speaker 1: the mic and say we're the richest people in the room. 56 00:04:00,864 --> 00:04:02,944 Speaker 1: We're going to buy everybody a drink. They sound like 57 00:04:03,104 --> 00:04:09,744 Speaker 1: really cool dudes, and Joel, not to be outdone, then 58 00:04:09,824 --> 00:04:12,104 Speaker 1: pays the club even more to get on the mic. 59 00:04:12,824 --> 00:04:15,424 Speaker 1: And he says, I don't know who's the richest in 60 00:04:15,464 --> 00:04:18,824 Speaker 1: the room, but I'm going to buy every bottle in 61 00:04:18,904 --> 00:04:21,624 Speaker 1: the club tonight, and I want the staff to go 62 00:04:21,664 --> 00:04:23,944 Speaker 1: across the street and get all the bottles from that 63 00:04:23,984 --> 00:04:26,744 Speaker 1: club too, so that I can buy them. And it's 64 00:04:26,744 --> 00:04:29,584 Speaker 1: all on me. That's how Pras Michelle gets to know 65 00:04:29,664 --> 00:04:33,024 Speaker 1: Joe Low the first time. So Priz, in addition to 66 00:04:33,024 --> 00:04:36,184 Speaker 1: being a member of the Fujis, is a player in 67 00:04:36,264 --> 00:04:39,824 Speaker 1: political circles right, which is a sort of surprising. I 68 00:04:39,824 --> 00:04:42,704 Speaker 1: mean that that's kind of what he's done since Ghetto Superstar. 69 00:04:43,264 --> 00:04:48,464 Speaker 1: So after the Fujis are done, Pros does a range 70 00:04:48,544 --> 00:04:51,904 Speaker 1: of kind of odd side projects, and a lot of 71 00:04:51,904 --> 00:04:55,704 Speaker 1: them have to do with politics of social justice issues. 72 00:04:55,904 --> 00:04:59,784 Speaker 1: He opposed as a homeless person and lived on skid 73 00:04:59,864 --> 00:05:02,904 Speaker 1: row in LA for a week for a documentary. For 74 00:05:02,944 --> 00:05:07,424 Speaker 1: another one, he went to Somalia to report on piracy. 75 00:05:07,904 --> 00:05:11,104 Speaker 1: He did a kind of rod manesque North Korea trip. 76 00:05:12,224 --> 00:05:17,744 Speaker 1: He was kind of hooked into different topics than your average, 77 00:05:18,224 --> 00:05:21,264 Speaker 1: you know, X nineties rapper, and he was also really 78 00:05:21,304 --> 00:05:24,784 Speaker 1: interested in politics, and particularly in Barack Obama. He bundled 79 00:05:24,784 --> 00:05:27,104 Speaker 1: a lot of money for Obama right he became a 80 00:05:27,144 --> 00:05:29,264 Speaker 1: significant donor, not so much in the two thousand and 81 00:05:29,264 --> 00:05:32,424 Speaker 1: eight election, but more in twenty twelve. Proz also lives 82 00:05:32,584 --> 00:05:36,264 Speaker 1: pretty large, right, yes, absolutely, you know the Fujis were 83 00:05:36,424 --> 00:05:39,864 Speaker 1: had a very successful catalog, But he also had a 84 00:05:40,144 --> 00:05:43,384 Speaker 1: very expensive lifestyle. He had things like a thirty thousand 85 00:05:43,344 --> 00:05:46,824 Speaker 1: dollars a month apartment in New York and as we 86 00:05:46,864 --> 00:05:50,824 Speaker 1: reported the story, his financial advisor was admonishing him to 87 00:05:50,864 --> 00:05:57,304 Speaker 1: spend less and Lamborghini and yeah, yeah, Proz's lawyer, David 88 00:05:57,344 --> 00:06:01,944 Speaker 1: Kenner says Pros was never hard for cash, but whether 89 00:06:01,944 --> 00:06:04,904 Speaker 1: that's true or not, he definitely had a very expensive 90 00:06:04,904 --> 00:06:09,704 Speaker 1: lifestyle to fund. And Jolo, who grew up in Malaysia, 91 00:06:09,864 --> 00:06:14,784 Speaker 1: rich went to high school in London, went to UPenn 92 00:06:15,184 --> 00:06:20,024 Speaker 1: for undergrad and then he winds up running this fund 93 00:06:20,144 --> 00:06:25,384 Speaker 1: for the Malaysian government. What was that one MDB was 94 00:06:25,424 --> 00:06:28,744 Speaker 1: meant to be a strategic investment fund for the Malaysian 95 00:06:29,024 --> 00:06:33,864 Speaker 1: government and Joel, who was a kind of budding financier, 96 00:06:34,824 --> 00:06:37,664 Speaker 1: was the key actor in getting this thing set up. 97 00:06:37,864 --> 00:06:40,744 Speaker 1: And this was a period when sovereign wealth funds were 98 00:06:40,824 --> 00:06:44,344 Speaker 1: all the rage, the idea that a government will create 99 00:06:44,544 --> 00:06:51,584 Speaker 1: a commercial investment corporation essentially to make big ticket deals 100 00:06:51,784 --> 00:06:54,384 Speaker 1: on behalf of its citizens. So that was the pitch 101 00:06:54,584 --> 00:06:57,904 Speaker 1: of one MDB And Jolo is pretty young to be 102 00:06:57,984 --> 00:07:00,664 Speaker 1: running this thing now, extremely young, Yeah, yeah, extremely young, 103 00:07:00,784 --> 00:07:03,824 Speaker 1: but he's making enough money on this thing where he's 104 00:07:03,904 --> 00:07:07,504 Speaker 1: just throwing money out, like at the club, like he 105 00:07:07,544 --> 00:07:12,784 Speaker 1: gave Kim Kardashian a Ferrari. He dated Miranda kerr the supermodel, 106 00:07:12,824 --> 00:07:15,624 Speaker 1: and gave her, like you said, eight million dollars in jewelry. 107 00:07:15,944 --> 00:07:19,344 Speaker 1: And he really buddied up with Leonardo DiCaprio, right, So, 108 00:07:19,384 --> 00:07:22,584 Speaker 1: starting in about two thousand and nine twenty ten, Joe 109 00:07:22,664 --> 00:07:29,424 Speaker 1: Lowe became ubiquitous on the A list social circuit. Turns out, 110 00:07:29,784 --> 00:07:33,064 Speaker 1: when you start spending incredible amounts of money all over 111 00:07:33,104 --> 00:07:35,544 Speaker 1: the world, lots of celebrities want to be close to you, 112 00:07:35,824 --> 00:07:38,744 Speaker 1: and that is indeed what happened. What's Joel like? Is 113 00:07:38,744 --> 00:07:43,184 Speaker 1: he like Wall Street bro? What is his vibe? I've 114 00:07:43,184 --> 00:07:45,864 Speaker 1: never met him, so I can't really comment on his personality, 115 00:07:46,104 --> 00:07:51,624 Speaker 1: but he's kind of an unlikely figure. He's from Penang, 116 00:07:51,704 --> 00:07:54,864 Speaker 1: which is a small city in Malaysia. Like, he's not 117 00:07:54,904 --> 00:07:58,024 Speaker 1: even from Qualumper of the capitol. He is sort of 118 00:07:58,064 --> 00:08:01,824 Speaker 1: baby faced and pudgy. I've certainly heard people say he's 119 00:08:01,824 --> 00:08:04,744 Speaker 1: a bit awkward socially, like he's not what you would 120 00:08:04,744 --> 00:08:08,064 Speaker 1: expect of someone who was hanging out, as you say 121 00:08:08,064 --> 00:08:11,944 Speaker 1: with Leonardo Torio. You know, nonetheless, he did have all 122 00:08:11,984 --> 00:08:14,424 Speaker 1: of these relationships and they lasted quite a long time. 123 00:08:14,984 --> 00:08:20,064 Speaker 1: And Praz, who's become a bundler for Obama's twenty twelve campaign, 124 00:08:20,944 --> 00:08:25,984 Speaker 1: gets Joe Loo to donate, which is blatantly illegal. I mean, 125 00:08:25,984 --> 00:08:28,304 Speaker 1: this is this is beyond Russian meddling. This is you're 126 00:08:28,304 --> 00:08:31,384 Speaker 1: not allowed as a foreigner to donate to an American 127 00:08:31,664 --> 00:08:36,224 Speaker 1: political campaign, right, So this is what prosecutors allege, and 128 00:08:36,824 --> 00:08:39,344 Speaker 1: I should stress it hasn't been proven in court process. 129 00:08:39,384 --> 00:08:41,384 Speaker 1: Going on trial at the end of March, and this 130 00:08:41,424 --> 00:08:44,504 Speaker 1: will all be hashed out. We do podcast just this year. 131 00:08:44,744 --> 00:08:48,584 Speaker 1: We don't need indeed, so what the allegation is, and 132 00:08:48,624 --> 00:08:51,784 Speaker 1: this is just part of the ten count federal indictment 133 00:08:51,984 --> 00:08:54,344 Speaker 1: Praz is facing. There are a lot of things you 134 00:08:54,344 --> 00:08:58,704 Speaker 1: can get away with in American election financing. One of 135 00:08:58,744 --> 00:09:00,704 Speaker 1: the things you are really not supposed to do, and 136 00:09:00,784 --> 00:09:05,264 Speaker 1: that is very very illegal, is for foreign nationals who 137 00:09:05,344 --> 00:09:08,344 Speaker 1: are not US permit residents. So most foreign nationals to 138 00:09:08,464 --> 00:09:13,744 Speaker 1: donate to political campaigns, So any campaign is not going 139 00:09:13,784 --> 00:09:15,784 Speaker 1: to take your money if they know that you are 140 00:09:15,824 --> 00:09:19,984 Speaker 1: a foreign citizen. What Proz is accused of having done 141 00:09:20,784 --> 00:09:24,544 Speaker 1: is essentially serving as a middleman between Joe Lowe and 142 00:09:24,664 --> 00:09:28,584 Speaker 1: the Obama campaign. So, according to the DOJ, low sent 143 00:09:28,664 --> 00:09:32,744 Speaker 1: Pros about twenty one million dollars. Pros then turned around 144 00:09:32,784 --> 00:09:35,704 Speaker 1: and took a portion of that, about two million, and 145 00:09:36,104 --> 00:09:38,744 Speaker 1: donated it to the Obama campaign, both in his own 146 00:09:38,824 --> 00:09:41,824 Speaker 1: name and through what are called straw donors, who are 147 00:09:41,824 --> 00:09:45,104 Speaker 1: sort of a middleman for a middleman. So he laundered 148 00:09:45,224 --> 00:09:48,344 Speaker 1: the two million. That would be one term for it 149 00:09:48,384 --> 00:09:52,744 Speaker 1: that in terms of the origins of the donations, Yeah, 150 00:09:52,784 --> 00:09:55,104 Speaker 1: no one would have known these came from Joe low 151 00:09:55,144 --> 00:09:57,904 Speaker 1: That is the allegation anyway. But our listeners are also 152 00:09:58,024 --> 00:10:00,384 Speaker 1: very good at math, and they're probably noticing there's nineteen 153 00:10:00,384 --> 00:10:04,024 Speaker 1: million dollars missing. Indeed there are, and we don't know 154 00:10:04,024 --> 00:10:06,104 Speaker 1: what happened to that money, but it's certainly a very 155 00:10:06,144 --> 00:10:10,744 Speaker 1: interesting question. Yeah, why is Pras doing that? Well, Look, 156 00:10:10,984 --> 00:10:13,744 Speaker 1: I think the simple reason Pros is doing this is 157 00:10:14,504 --> 00:10:17,504 Speaker 1: any interaction with Joel and pros was certainly not the 158 00:10:17,544 --> 00:10:21,784 Speaker 1: only celebrity to learn this could throw off incredible amounts 159 00:10:21,824 --> 00:10:24,864 Speaker 1: of cash. Joel appears to have had access to more 160 00:10:24,944 --> 00:10:28,504 Speaker 1: liquid cash than anybody else in the world in this period. 161 00:10:29,184 --> 00:10:33,304 Speaker 1: And we can talk about why, yeah, well why the 162 00:10:33,384 --> 00:10:37,184 Speaker 1: why is that, according to the DOJ and prosecutors in 163 00:10:37,184 --> 00:10:40,584 Speaker 1: Malaysia and investigators all over the world, one MDB was 164 00:10:40,624 --> 00:10:44,744 Speaker 1: a scam. This fund raised billions of dollars from the 165 00:10:44,784 --> 00:10:46,944 Speaker 1: bond markets and other sources, a lot of it with 166 00:10:46,984 --> 00:10:50,984 Speaker 1: the help of a little bank called Goldman Sacks, and 167 00:10:51,984 --> 00:10:56,344 Speaker 1: much of that money was diverted to Joel and his associates, 168 00:10:56,784 --> 00:10:59,944 Speaker 1: and that gave them access to hundreds and hundreds of millions, 169 00:10:59,984 --> 00:11:03,224 Speaker 1: if not billions, of dollars. And when I say had 170 00:11:03,584 --> 00:11:07,264 Speaker 1: access to more liquid cash, if you're Jeff Bezos or 171 00:11:07,264 --> 00:11:11,064 Speaker 1: Elon Musk, your wealth is in stock and your cash 172 00:11:11,224 --> 00:11:14,064 Speaker 1: is you know, whatever salary you're paid and then whatever 173 00:11:14,104 --> 00:11:17,264 Speaker 1: you borrow against that stock. Joe Low, on the other hand, 174 00:11:17,384 --> 00:11:20,104 Speaker 1: this was liquid greenbacks, and he was willing to spend 175 00:11:20,144 --> 00:11:22,304 Speaker 1: it all over the world and on all his friends. 176 00:11:22,344 --> 00:11:25,064 Speaker 1: So hanging out with him, doing favors for him was 177 00:11:25,144 --> 00:11:29,984 Speaker 1: very lucrative. And this is the Malaysian people's money, right, Yeah, 178 00:11:30,024 --> 00:11:32,104 Speaker 1: the most accurate way to say it would be it's 179 00:11:32,664 --> 00:11:34,944 Speaker 1: money that was supposed to be invested on behalf of 180 00:11:34,944 --> 00:11:37,544 Speaker 1: the Malaysian people, that had been raised from the bond 181 00:11:37,544 --> 00:11:41,744 Speaker 1: markets and other sources to fund investments that were supposed 182 00:11:41,784 --> 00:11:45,544 Speaker 1: to benefit in Malaysia, right when those investments probably aren't, 183 00:11:45,624 --> 00:11:50,384 Speaker 1: you know, jewelry from Miranda Kur. This had huge implications 184 00:11:50,384 --> 00:11:53,264 Speaker 1: in Malaysia. I mean it did an incredible damage to 185 00:11:53,304 --> 00:11:56,224 Speaker 1: that country. Right, This is a huge thing in Malaysia, absolutely. 186 00:11:56,264 --> 00:11:58,904 Speaker 1: And actually the former Malaysian Prime Minister and Naji Rozak, 187 00:11:58,944 --> 00:12:01,544 Speaker 1: who kind of presided over the creation of one MDB, 188 00:12:02,304 --> 00:12:05,624 Speaker 1: is currently serving a twelve year jail sentence in connection 189 00:12:05,664 --> 00:12:08,304 Speaker 1: to the whole situation. Now this was seizment, you know. 190 00:12:08,344 --> 00:12:10,944 Speaker 1: So if we fast forward a little bit when the 191 00:12:11,064 --> 00:12:15,464 Speaker 1: US government started seizing assets connected to one MDB, it 192 00:12:15,544 --> 00:12:18,184 Speaker 1: was totally nuts what had been accumulated with this money. 193 00:12:18,224 --> 00:12:22,624 Speaker 1: It was real estate, a Bombardier, jet Lermitage, hotel in 194 00:12:22,784 --> 00:12:25,824 Speaker 1: la In all kinds of very glitzy stuff art, you know, 195 00:12:25,984 --> 00:12:29,464 Speaker 1: mone Picasso, that sort of thing. So Joel is in trouble. 196 00:12:29,504 --> 00:12:32,544 Speaker 1: People have figured out that the scam's been going on 197 00:12:32,744 --> 00:12:35,944 Speaker 1: and the jig is up starting in twenty fifteen, and 198 00:12:35,984 --> 00:12:39,064 Speaker 1: the FBI and DJ open an investigation, and that is 199 00:12:39,104 --> 00:12:42,384 Speaker 1: where things begin to change for Joe Low and ultimately 200 00:12:42,424 --> 00:12:46,504 Speaker 1: for Priz Michelle. And so Praz is in Santrope. As 201 00:12:46,544 --> 00:12:50,784 Speaker 1: Praz does, and he runs into is this random Lowe's 202 00:12:50,864 --> 00:12:55,744 Speaker 1: brother Sheen? That's right, summer of twenty sixteen, Proz runs 203 00:12:55,744 --> 00:12:58,904 Speaker 1: into Joelo's brother sen Low just randomly. This is just 204 00:12:58,944 --> 00:13:01,784 Speaker 1: another meat cute. Yeah, I mean it's not so random 205 00:13:01,824 --> 00:13:03,824 Speaker 1: when you're in that. If you are a kind of 206 00:13:03,824 --> 00:13:07,944 Speaker 1: big spending global celebrity, Santrope in August's where you're run 207 00:13:07,984 --> 00:13:10,104 Speaker 1: into people. So they run into each other. Joe, Lo 208 00:13:10,304 --> 00:13:12,584 Speaker 1: and Praz had been friends for a while. At this point. 209 00:13:13,264 --> 00:13:16,824 Speaker 1: Send Low connects Praz to Joe, who talks about his 210 00:13:16,864 --> 00:13:22,384 Speaker 1: issues with the DJ and complains that this is all bullshit, 211 00:13:22,624 --> 00:13:25,304 Speaker 1: basically that he's done nothing wrong and he needs to 212 00:13:25,344 --> 00:13:30,384 Speaker 1: resolve his legal situation. And he asks Praz his good friend, who, 213 00:13:30,464 --> 00:13:33,584 Speaker 1: as Joel knew, had some political connections, if he knew 214 00:13:33,584 --> 00:13:36,784 Speaker 1: anybody who could help, and if you're Prize at this point, 215 00:13:37,144 --> 00:13:40,864 Speaker 1: even if you really like your buddy Joel. You run right, 216 00:13:42,184 --> 00:13:44,344 Speaker 1: if someone asks you to help them when they're in 217 00:13:44,624 --> 00:13:48,864 Speaker 1: enormous trouble from besling more liquid cash than anyone has 218 00:13:48,864 --> 00:13:53,304 Speaker 1: on the planet, you don't get involved. Well, he did, 219 00:13:53,664 --> 00:13:57,144 Speaker 1: and it's probably speculation to talk about his reasons, but 220 00:13:57,584 --> 00:14:00,944 Speaker 1: the context is they were friends. As far as he knew. 221 00:14:01,024 --> 00:14:03,224 Speaker 1: Joel was a good guy who Pros had had a 222 00:14:03,264 --> 00:14:06,064 Speaker 1: lot of fun with over the years. He thought he 223 00:14:06,104 --> 00:14:09,304 Speaker 1: was a great businessman, and he wanted guy is the 224 00:14:09,304 --> 00:14:11,784 Speaker 1: phrase that gets you in trouble over and over again 225 00:14:11,784 --> 00:14:14,744 Speaker 1: in life. Right, Indeed he's a good guy. Yeah, yeah, 226 00:14:14,744 --> 00:14:17,904 Speaker 1: that's always a red flag. And look, the other thing 227 00:14:18,024 --> 00:14:21,944 Speaker 1: is interactions with Joel, as I said earlier, could be 228 00:14:22,064 --> 00:14:26,544 Speaker 1: very lucrative for everyone involved. Yeah, so he's gonna try 229 00:14:26,584 --> 00:14:30,944 Speaker 1: and help him with his situation with the investigation in 230 00:14:30,984 --> 00:14:35,144 Speaker 1: the US. But then, of course Donald Trump wins and 231 00:14:35,224 --> 00:14:37,784 Speaker 1: Praz is basically useless. Right. He has no connections to 232 00:14:37,944 --> 00:14:42,184 Speaker 1: the Republicans, that's right, Pras he's an Obama guy, his 233 00:14:42,264 --> 00:14:46,464 Speaker 1: connections are not to Republicans, And come January twenty seventeen, 234 00:14:46,904 --> 00:14:50,544 Speaker 1: that's what you need because the Trump administration is taking over. 235 00:14:50,784 --> 00:14:53,424 Speaker 1: So what Pros does is he reaches out to a friend. 236 00:14:53,784 --> 00:14:57,264 Speaker 1: So PRIs doesn't just give up. No, No, he has 237 00:14:57,424 --> 00:15:00,264 Speaker 1: he has another idea, which is he knows a woman 238 00:15:00,304 --> 00:15:04,864 Speaker 1: named Nicki lum Davis, who is a TV producer among 239 00:15:04,904 --> 00:15:07,984 Speaker 1: other things from Hawaii to her former husband was a 240 00:15:07,984 --> 00:15:11,104 Speaker 1: guy called Joe Shapira who was the co founder of 241 00:15:11,264 --> 00:15:15,944 Speaker 1: j Date, which is a very successful product. Is as 242 00:15:15,984 --> 00:15:18,944 Speaker 1: a Jew, I can explain it. It's a way for 243 00:15:19,064 --> 00:15:22,384 Speaker 1: Jewish people to go on dates with other Jewish people 244 00:15:22,624 --> 00:15:27,744 Speaker 1: or people who love Jews. Indeed, Yeah, and is she Jewish, 245 00:15:27,864 --> 00:15:31,464 Speaker 1: Nikki lum Davis, Well, she converts, she marries Joe Shapiro, 246 00:15:31,504 --> 00:15:36,944 Speaker 1: who's Israeli. She converts, she becomes very hawkishly pro Israel, 247 00:15:37,584 --> 00:15:40,504 Speaker 1: and she gets a lot of connections with Republicans. And 248 00:15:40,784 --> 00:15:44,384 Speaker 1: Praz knows her because her parents were big Democratic donors 249 00:15:44,464 --> 00:15:47,024 Speaker 1: or why does Praz know her? No, he just knows 250 00:15:47,064 --> 00:15:50,064 Speaker 1: her socially, although her parents were Democratic donors. And that's 251 00:15:50,104 --> 00:15:54,424 Speaker 1: like a book in itself. Her parents went to jail, Yeah, 252 00:15:54,424 --> 00:16:00,264 Speaker 1: in the nineties over illegal fundraising for the Clinton campaign. Well, 253 00:16:00,304 --> 00:16:02,504 Speaker 1: after going through that with your parents, certainly you're not 254 00:16:02,504 --> 00:16:05,384 Speaker 1: going to get involved in that yourself, you would think not, 255 00:16:05,744 --> 00:16:10,264 Speaker 1: and yet here we are. So praz call Nicky lum 256 00:16:10,384 --> 00:16:13,904 Speaker 1: Davis because she's got connections to the GOP that he 257 00:16:14,224 --> 00:16:18,104 Speaker 1: can use potentially to help Jello exactly. So he asks 258 00:16:18,184 --> 00:16:20,344 Speaker 1: Nicky lum Davis for advice, you know, do you know 259 00:16:20,424 --> 00:16:22,984 Speaker 1: anyone who could help with this kind of thing? And 260 00:16:23,144 --> 00:16:25,424 Speaker 1: it turns out she does. And the person she does 261 00:16:25,504 --> 00:16:29,544 Speaker 1: know is named Elliott Broidy, who is a name that 262 00:16:29,624 --> 00:16:31,784 Speaker 1: may be familiar to some of your listeners. He's come 263 00:16:31,864 --> 00:16:33,504 Speaker 1: up a lot in the last few years and he 264 00:16:33,584 --> 00:16:37,384 Speaker 1: is a big Republican fundraiser in La Broidy, for a fee, 265 00:16:37,504 --> 00:16:40,864 Speaker 1: thinks he might be able to help Joe low out, 266 00:16:41,424 --> 00:16:45,344 Speaker 1: but does this thing where he doesn't want to get 267 00:16:45,384 --> 00:16:48,664 Speaker 1: cut out of any of these deals. So any information 268 00:16:48,784 --> 00:16:52,424 Speaker 1: or money that's going to go to this woman or 269 00:16:52,504 --> 00:16:56,904 Speaker 1: to Broidy has to go through him, right right, So 270 00:16:56,984 --> 00:16:59,104 Speaker 1: what's going on here is, you know, according to the 271 00:16:59,144 --> 00:17:02,944 Speaker 1: DOJ and according to the charges against Pras, is this 272 00:17:03,064 --> 00:17:06,104 Speaker 1: was a lobbying effort. That the idea here was that 273 00:17:06,184 --> 00:17:08,624 Speaker 1: Broidy and lum Davis were going to lobby the Trump 274 00:17:08,624 --> 00:17:15,024 Speaker 1: administer on Joel's behalf. Praz As lawyers say, actually pros 275 00:17:15,184 --> 00:17:17,664 Speaker 1: mistakenly thought that Brody was an attorney and this was 276 00:17:17,704 --> 00:17:21,424 Speaker 1: just about legal representation, and that's what Praz was looking for. 277 00:17:21,704 --> 00:17:24,024 Speaker 1: Probably the reason they're concerned about that is there's a 278 00:17:24,104 --> 00:17:27,944 Speaker 1: legal distinction between lobbying and legal representation, and you have 279 00:17:28,024 --> 00:17:31,024 Speaker 1: to register as a lobbyist. Is this guy registered lobbyist 280 00:17:31,584 --> 00:17:34,104 Speaker 1: in this case? He did not register. No. The US 281 00:17:34,144 --> 00:17:38,024 Speaker 1: has this legislation called Farah Foreign Agents Registration Act, And 282 00:17:38,144 --> 00:17:42,664 Speaker 1: basically what Farah says is if you are lobbying, i e. 283 00:17:43,344 --> 00:17:48,144 Speaker 1: Trying to get politicians to do the bidding of a 284 00:17:48,184 --> 00:17:51,064 Speaker 1: foreign government or actually any foreign client. You know it 285 00:17:51,104 --> 00:17:54,144 Speaker 1: can be a private company too, you have to register 286 00:17:54,344 --> 00:17:57,144 Speaker 1: with the DOJ at the start of this work. You 287 00:17:57,184 --> 00:17:58,504 Speaker 1: have to tell them what you're doing, you have to 288 00:17:58,504 --> 00:18:01,904 Speaker 1: tell them what you're being paid, and you have to 289 00:18:01,944 --> 00:18:08,184 Speaker 1: file these regular statements summarizing everything you're up to. And 290 00:18:08,704 --> 00:18:11,504 Speaker 1: if you lobby for a foreign client and do not 291 00:18:11,704 --> 00:18:15,544 Speaker 1: register under FARAH, you are in very deep trouble. Nobody 292 00:18:15,544 --> 00:18:18,224 Speaker 1: ever registered in this group as a lobbyist for Joelo, 293 00:18:18,304 --> 00:18:21,784 Speaker 1: and that's at the core of these charges. Okay, so 294 00:18:21,864 --> 00:18:24,264 Speaker 1: Broidy's going to get paid by Joel, but it's going 295 00:18:24,304 --> 00:18:27,024 Speaker 1: to go through Priz, who's going to take a taste, 296 00:18:27,064 --> 00:18:31,784 Speaker 1: if you will, of this. So the structure that Proz proposes, 297 00:18:31,984 --> 00:18:34,704 Speaker 1: and Nikki lam Davis would later tell the FBI this 298 00:18:34,784 --> 00:18:37,424 Speaker 1: was because he didn't want to be cut out, was 299 00:18:38,024 --> 00:18:42,384 Speaker 1: a kind of chain where Joelo Jolo's associates would talk 300 00:18:42,744 --> 00:18:47,184 Speaker 1: to Praz, Priz would talk to Nikki, Nikki would talk 301 00:18:47,224 --> 00:18:49,944 Speaker 1: to Broidy, and the money was supposed to go the 302 00:18:49,984 --> 00:18:52,784 Speaker 1: same way. You can imagine the idea would have been 303 00:18:52,824 --> 00:18:56,184 Speaker 1: in this kind of waterfall that everyone at each step 304 00:18:56,864 --> 00:19:01,424 Speaker 1: gets a piece of it. Where's Joelo's money coming from? 305 00:19:01,464 --> 00:19:03,944 Speaker 1: At this point, it's all been seized. The whole thing 306 00:19:03,944 --> 00:19:07,184 Speaker 1: fell apart. I thought he'd had a lot of assets seized, 307 00:19:07,344 --> 00:19:11,824 Speaker 1: and certainly banks would have been very wary of dealing 308 00:19:11,904 --> 00:19:16,144 Speaker 1: with him by this point, but he obviously had cash 309 00:19:16,264 --> 00:19:20,584 Speaker 1: or access to friends who had cash or funds and 310 00:19:20,624 --> 00:19:23,384 Speaker 1: assets that had not been discovered by the US government, 311 00:19:23,464 --> 00:19:26,304 Speaker 1: so he was still able to operate. Proz is in 312 00:19:26,624 --> 00:19:30,144 Speaker 1: way over his head at this point. Right in retrospect, 313 00:19:30,184 --> 00:19:36,384 Speaker 1: absolutely soon Jolo will have a completely different favor that 314 00:19:36,464 --> 00:19:39,944 Speaker 1: he wants Proz's help with, and Jolo is willing to 315 00:19:40,064 --> 00:19:42,584 Speaker 1: kick in a few tens of millions of dollars for 316 00:19:42,624 --> 00:19:47,264 Speaker 1: Proz's help. Again, this is Proz the nineteen nineties rapper. 317 00:19:48,544 --> 00:19:51,464 Speaker 1: But first, our advertisers are going to try and sell 318 00:19:51,464 --> 00:19:59,864 Speaker 1: you something that Malaysians can probably no longer afford. Okay, 319 00:19:59,904 --> 00:20:05,024 Speaker 1: So Proz and his new posse of Republican friends fly 320 00:20:05,064 --> 00:20:08,144 Speaker 1: out to Thailand to go meet with Lowe to talk 321 00:20:08,144 --> 00:20:10,464 Speaker 1: to him about what they can do with the Trump 322 00:20:10,464 --> 00:20:13,104 Speaker 1: administration to get at least the American part of the 323 00:20:13,144 --> 00:20:15,904 Speaker 1: people that or after him off his back. But when 324 00:20:15,904 --> 00:20:18,984 Speaker 1: they meet with Lowe, he suddenly wants help with a 325 00:20:19,104 --> 00:20:23,144 Speaker 1: completely different issue than one MDB. And this is where 326 00:20:23,144 --> 00:20:27,504 Speaker 1: the story gets kind of head spinning. Yeah, goes slow. So, 327 00:20:27,664 --> 00:20:30,904 Speaker 1: as you say, praz Nikki, Lam Davis, and Elliot Broydy 328 00:20:30,944 --> 00:20:34,624 Speaker 1: fly out to Bangkok. Joe low for obvious reasons, is 329 00:20:34,664 --> 00:20:36,704 Speaker 1: in no hurry to spend any time in the US 330 00:20:36,744 --> 00:20:38,784 Speaker 1: at this point because he'll be arrested if he shows 331 00:20:38,824 --> 00:20:42,784 Speaker 1: up here, right indeed, so he says, come SENI in Bangkok. 332 00:20:42,824 --> 00:20:46,584 Speaker 1: So they do. In this meeting in Bangkok, something totally 333 00:20:46,624 --> 00:20:50,464 Speaker 1: left field comes up, and that is a Chinese billionaire 334 00:20:50,584 --> 00:20:53,584 Speaker 1: named Guo wangwe, who is a very flamboyant real estate 335 00:20:53,624 --> 00:20:56,344 Speaker 1: developer from Beijing who had left China, moved to New 336 00:20:56,424 --> 00:21:01,624 Speaker 1: York and had begun kind of making a nuisance of 337 00:21:01,704 --> 00:21:05,504 Speaker 1: himself in a very interesting way. He over the last 338 00:21:05,664 --> 00:21:08,504 Speaker 1: couple of months, this is spring of twenty seventeen, had 339 00:21:08,544 --> 00:21:14,264 Speaker 1: been making really outlandish and very specific claims about corruption 340 00:21:14,544 --> 00:21:17,544 Speaker 1: in the top leadership of the Communist Party. And I 341 00:21:17,544 --> 00:21:19,744 Speaker 1: think the specific part is important. He was kind of 342 00:21:19,824 --> 00:21:23,664 Speaker 1: naming names, naming assets. And you know, as I know 343 00:21:23,784 --> 00:21:26,864 Speaker 1: from covering China over the years, one of the ultimate 344 00:21:26,904 --> 00:21:31,624 Speaker 1: taboos in China is discussing the financial situation of the 345 00:21:31,664 --> 00:21:34,064 Speaker 1: top leadership in their family. That is like the ultimate 346 00:21:34,104 --> 00:21:38,184 Speaker 1: red line, and this for the Chinese was a big problem. 347 00:21:39,144 --> 00:21:42,744 Speaker 1: The Chinese at this point claimed Guo was a fugitive, 348 00:21:42,944 --> 00:21:46,304 Speaker 1: that he was wanted on all kinds of non political 349 00:21:46,744 --> 00:21:51,184 Speaker 1: embezzlement type charges. Guo is always denied that, and they 350 00:21:51,224 --> 00:21:54,264 Speaker 1: wanted him back. And in this meeting in Bangkok, it 351 00:21:54,424 --> 00:21:57,104 Speaker 1: is made clear to Praz and Nikki lam Davis and 352 00:21:57,144 --> 00:22:00,664 Speaker 1: Elliot Broidy that Joe Low would love to have their 353 00:22:00,664 --> 00:22:03,944 Speaker 1: help in convincing the US government to kick quouangwe out 354 00:22:03,984 --> 00:22:07,664 Speaker 1: of the country, send him back to China, where he'll 355 00:22:07,664 --> 00:22:12,864 Speaker 1: be imprisoned, were killed, where he would disappear. Yes, yeah, Okay, 356 00:22:13,264 --> 00:22:20,904 Speaker 1: So why would Joelo be interested in Guo being deported 357 00:22:20,944 --> 00:22:23,504 Speaker 1: back to China. He's got his own problems. Why would 358 00:22:23,544 --> 00:22:26,624 Speaker 1: he take on someone else's problems, I eat China's problems. 359 00:22:26,944 --> 00:22:29,064 Speaker 1: Well that's a very good question, thank you. You know, 360 00:22:29,104 --> 00:22:34,064 Speaker 1: the context here is interesting and important. The reason Joel 361 00:22:34,264 --> 00:22:36,304 Speaker 1: doesn't want to go to the US is he knows 362 00:22:36,344 --> 00:22:39,184 Speaker 1: he might be charged criminally by the US and if 363 00:22:39,184 --> 00:22:40,944 Speaker 1: that's going to happen, there's only a few places you 364 00:22:40,984 --> 00:22:45,104 Speaker 1: can go Russia, China, North Korea, and of those three, 365 00:22:45,544 --> 00:22:48,464 Speaker 1: China is certainly the most appealing good choice option. Yeah, 366 00:22:48,624 --> 00:22:52,064 Speaker 1: so he had ample reasons to want to please the 367 00:22:52,144 --> 00:22:55,984 Speaker 1: Chinese government. Okay, but Joel figures if he can get 368 00:22:56,504 --> 00:23:00,704 Speaker 1: Guo sent back to China, then he can escape to 369 00:23:00,784 --> 00:23:03,264 Speaker 1: China and live there as a freeman. So now he's 370 00:23:03,264 --> 00:23:08,704 Speaker 1: got this team, including Prize, working on getting Woe to 371 00:23:09,144 --> 00:23:12,064 Speaker 1: ordered back to China, which is their new goal. They 372 00:23:12,064 --> 00:23:15,944 Speaker 1: have two goals in parallel. One is get the doj 373 00:23:16,104 --> 00:23:20,064 Speaker 1: to back off low to back off. One MDB. Goal 374 00:23:20,184 --> 00:23:24,464 Speaker 1: number two, which is going on simultaneously, is get the 375 00:23:24,504 --> 00:23:29,544 Speaker 1: Trump administration to either extradite Quo, who remember, has been 376 00:23:30,024 --> 00:23:32,584 Speaker 1: charged with various crimes in China at this point, or 377 00:23:32,704 --> 00:23:35,624 Speaker 1: just cancel A's visa kick him out. Okay, So then 378 00:23:35,624 --> 00:23:37,864 Speaker 1: they have this meeting in Hong Kong. But when Praz 379 00:23:38,184 --> 00:23:41,904 Speaker 1: and the his Goop friends show up in Hong Kong, 380 00:23:42,424 --> 00:23:45,384 Speaker 1: suddenly Low calls them and says, actually, we're going to 381 00:23:45,464 --> 00:23:47,984 Speaker 1: meet in shenz En, so come over to China, which 382 00:23:48,024 --> 00:23:50,544 Speaker 1: they can't do because they only have visas. Yet they 383 00:23:50,584 --> 00:23:52,064 Speaker 1: turn up in Hong Kong. You don't need a visa 384 00:23:52,104 --> 00:23:55,024 Speaker 1: to go into Hong Kong, no problem. Then Praz gets 385 00:23:55,024 --> 00:23:57,824 Speaker 1: a call, actually the meeting has been moved. We're going 386 00:23:57,864 --> 00:24:01,024 Speaker 1: to do it on the mainland, and you very much 387 00:24:01,064 --> 00:24:04,224 Speaker 1: need a visa to go to China as an American citizen. 388 00:24:04,664 --> 00:24:07,064 Speaker 1: And you know, Nikki lam Davis, who had traveled in 389 00:24:07,064 --> 00:24:08,984 Speaker 1: Asia a fair bit, was freaking out. You know, how 390 00:24:09,064 --> 00:24:10,824 Speaker 1: the hell are we going to get in? But they 391 00:24:10,864 --> 00:24:13,544 Speaker 1: go to the border and they get waved through, which 392 00:24:13,584 --> 00:24:17,424 Speaker 1: is amazing, which suddenly they don't need visas, yeah, which 393 00:24:17,424 --> 00:24:20,984 Speaker 1: certainly suggests that they're dealing with people who have the 394 00:24:20,984 --> 00:24:24,624 Speaker 1: power to circumvent that kind of thing. And they then 395 00:24:24,704 --> 00:24:29,664 Speaker 1: go into a hotel in Shen's End where Joe says, 396 00:24:29,704 --> 00:24:31,304 Speaker 1: there's someone I want you to meet. And I'm sure 397 00:24:31,344 --> 00:24:33,104 Speaker 1: at this point it starts to make sense why they 398 00:24:33,104 --> 00:24:35,664 Speaker 1: didn't need visas. And the someone that Joe wanted them 399 00:24:35,664 --> 00:24:38,984 Speaker 1: to meet was suddenly John the Vice Minister of Public 400 00:24:39,024 --> 00:24:41,544 Speaker 1: Security of the People's Republic of China, who is not 401 00:24:41,624 --> 00:24:43,064 Speaker 1: someone you would expect to be in a room with 402 00:24:43,104 --> 00:24:46,544 Speaker 1: pros Michelle. But here we are. And this guy's a 403 00:24:46,624 --> 00:24:48,904 Speaker 1: little bit scary, right. This guy's like chain smoking and 404 00:24:48,944 --> 00:24:52,504 Speaker 1: he's all business. Yeah, he's you know, he's a Chinese cop, 405 00:24:52,784 --> 00:24:56,144 Speaker 1: so yeah, he's a pretty tough guy. And in this meeting, 406 00:24:56,504 --> 00:25:02,464 Speaker 1: Son starts talking to his American visitors about Guoangway and 407 00:25:02,584 --> 00:25:06,024 Speaker 1: how much China wanted him back, and also what China 408 00:25:06,184 --> 00:25:08,984 Speaker 1: was willing to do in return if the Trump admitt 409 00:25:09,264 --> 00:25:12,584 Speaker 1: ration made sure that Quo sort of fell off a 410 00:25:12,584 --> 00:25:15,664 Speaker 1: truck and went back to China, And what are they 411 00:25:15,704 --> 00:25:19,304 Speaker 1: willing to give for that. The big thing they're willing 412 00:25:19,304 --> 00:25:22,784 Speaker 1: to give is to release Americans who were either being 413 00:25:22,784 --> 00:25:25,624 Speaker 1: held by China or we're stuck in China under what 414 00:25:25,664 --> 00:25:27,664 Speaker 1: are called exit bands. And the way an exit band 415 00:25:27,744 --> 00:25:31,144 Speaker 1: works is you visit China and the Chinese government decides 416 00:25:31,224 --> 00:25:34,704 Speaker 1: that you've done something they don't like, or perhaps someone 417 00:25:34,784 --> 00:25:37,464 Speaker 1: close to you has done something they don't like, and 418 00:25:37,704 --> 00:25:39,784 Speaker 1: when you go to the airport to leave, they say, sorry, 419 00:25:39,784 --> 00:25:42,544 Speaker 1: you're not going anywhere until this thing gets resolved or 420 00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:45,384 Speaker 1: we get what we want. So the proposal was that 421 00:25:45,424 --> 00:25:49,184 Speaker 1: some American citizens who'd been in this situation would be 422 00:25:49,264 --> 00:25:56,304 Speaker 1: returned in exchange for QUO. Okay, So then goes back 423 00:25:56,704 --> 00:26:01,184 Speaker 1: home to America, and then he gets summoned by the 424 00:26:01,264 --> 00:26:05,264 Speaker 1: Chinese government official who he's met to the Four Seasons 425 00:26:05,304 --> 00:26:09,944 Speaker 1: in New York City? What is that about? So not 426 00:26:10,064 --> 00:26:13,064 Speaker 1: long after, it's just just a week or two, Son Legion, 427 00:26:13,224 --> 00:26:16,944 Speaker 1: the Chinese security official is in DC. He wants to 428 00:26:16,984 --> 00:26:20,064 Speaker 1: meet with various people in the Justice Department in Homeland 429 00:26:20,104 --> 00:26:25,744 Speaker 1: Security to talk, among other things, about quot and it 430 00:26:25,784 --> 00:26:29,224 Speaker 1: turns out Jeff Sessions, the then Attorney General, is unable 431 00:26:29,264 --> 00:26:31,944 Speaker 1: to meet with him. He's traveling and the meeting doesn't happen. 432 00:26:32,184 --> 00:26:35,664 Speaker 1: So Son obviously concerned, he's going to go back to 433 00:26:35,744 --> 00:26:39,784 Speaker 1: China empty handed. Having not gotten this meeting with Jeff Sessions, 434 00:26:40,704 --> 00:26:45,624 Speaker 1: calls Pros Michelle for advice. As one does, as one does, 435 00:26:45,664 --> 00:26:47,784 Speaker 1: and the way this is communicated to PRIs is interesting. 436 00:26:48,024 --> 00:26:51,504 Speaker 1: So he goes to the Four Seasons in Midtown and 437 00:26:52,344 --> 00:26:54,944 Speaker 1: the clerk at the front desk hands him a note, 438 00:26:55,744 --> 00:26:59,104 Speaker 1: and the note says, go out of the hotel, walk 439 00:26:59,184 --> 00:27:01,424 Speaker 1: twice around the block, make sure you're not being followed. 440 00:27:02,384 --> 00:27:05,824 Speaker 1: So Pros does this, goes around the block, comes back 441 00:27:05,824 --> 00:27:08,864 Speaker 1: to the front desk and is given a room key, 442 00:27:09,144 --> 00:27:12,504 Speaker 1: and he goes up to an empty suite where he 443 00:27:12,544 --> 00:27:17,504 Speaker 1: waits about twenty five minutes, and then a Chinese security 444 00:27:17,504 --> 00:27:21,104 Speaker 1: agent in a suit knocks on the door and gives 445 00:27:21,144 --> 00:27:23,304 Speaker 1: Pros a second room key and tells him to go 446 00:27:23,384 --> 00:27:27,024 Speaker 1: up to the penthouse. He walks in. Another Chinese security 447 00:27:27,024 --> 00:27:30,864 Speaker 1: agent takes Pros's phones, places them in a bag, and 448 00:27:31,144 --> 00:27:33,384 Speaker 1: there's a table in two chairs in the middle of 449 00:27:33,424 --> 00:27:35,224 Speaker 1: the room. This is where his meeting's going to happen. 450 00:27:35,584 --> 00:27:38,744 Speaker 1: Is he scared? This sounds scary. I think there was 451 00:27:38,824 --> 00:27:41,064 Speaker 1: some fear, and as we report, you know, he sort 452 00:27:41,064 --> 00:27:43,264 Speaker 1: of thinks to himself at one point, there's no way 453 00:27:43,304 --> 00:27:45,584 Speaker 1: they can kill me. In the four seasons, and so 454 00:27:45,704 --> 00:27:49,104 Speaker 1: what happens at this meeting? So then suddenly Juan shows up, 455 00:27:49,224 --> 00:27:52,824 Speaker 1: the Chinese security official who Pros had met shortly before this. 456 00:27:53,344 --> 00:27:55,904 Speaker 1: He is the guy from shenz End exactly, and he 457 00:27:55,944 --> 00:27:59,664 Speaker 1: explains the situation, which is he was in Washington to 458 00:27:59,704 --> 00:28:03,864 Speaker 1: try and make this deal to get Quoangway back and 459 00:28:04,704 --> 00:28:07,744 Speaker 1: had not succeeded and didn't know what to do. And 460 00:28:08,144 --> 00:28:10,904 Speaker 1: it sort of sounds to like, you know, Son had 461 00:28:10,944 --> 00:28:13,264 Speaker 1: instructions like, you know, you better get him back if 462 00:28:13,304 --> 00:28:15,304 Speaker 1: you know what's good for you, and was now in 463 00:28:15,344 --> 00:28:19,704 Speaker 1: a in a very tough spot. So he asks PRIs 464 00:28:19,704 --> 00:28:22,704 Speaker 1: for advice, what do you think I should do? And 465 00:28:22,784 --> 00:28:27,064 Speaker 1: remember I know this is yeah. Remember in chens En, 466 00:28:27,544 --> 00:28:30,224 Speaker 1: Son had talked about these American citizens who were being 467 00:28:30,224 --> 00:28:33,504 Speaker 1: held in China who China was willing to release if 468 00:28:33,584 --> 00:28:37,264 Speaker 1: Quo was sent home, and one of them was a 469 00:28:37,264 --> 00:28:42,864 Speaker 1: pregnant woman, and PRIs suggests to Son, well, why don't 470 00:28:42,864 --> 00:28:44,704 Speaker 1: you send one of them back, send her back, Send 471 00:28:44,744 --> 00:28:46,584 Speaker 1: the pregnant woman back as a sign of good faith, 472 00:28:46,744 --> 00:28:50,464 Speaker 1: and that'll get the attention. So he's just on the fly. Pros, 473 00:28:50,944 --> 00:28:52,584 Speaker 1: I don't know if he's making stuff up on the fly, 474 00:28:52,904 --> 00:28:58,504 Speaker 1: but it's solid advice. It is. Yeah, it's reasonable to say, 475 00:28:58,584 --> 00:29:00,984 Speaker 1: we'll show them that you're serious. Okay, So he tells 476 00:29:01,024 --> 00:29:03,424 Speaker 1: them to send back the pregnant woman that maybe that'll help, 477 00:29:03,704 --> 00:29:07,544 Speaker 1: like unilaterally, like don't wait for them, just do it 478 00:29:07,864 --> 00:29:12,704 Speaker 1: and that'll get their attention. And so Sun picks up 479 00:29:12,704 --> 00:29:16,984 Speaker 1: a phone, makes a call presumably back home, right there 480 00:29:17,024 --> 00:29:19,824 Speaker 1: and right there in the room, and he says to PRIs, 481 00:29:19,904 --> 00:29:24,184 Speaker 1: when do you want her back? And PRIs, having never 482 00:29:24,224 --> 00:29:29,344 Speaker 1: done this before, is like, how about tomorrow? And then 483 00:29:29,384 --> 00:29:31,664 Speaker 1: the answer comes back as well, no, they don't do weekends. 484 00:29:31,704 --> 00:29:33,704 Speaker 1: They can't do it on the weekend. This is over 485 00:29:33,744 --> 00:29:37,824 Speaker 1: the weekend. Takes a break from their hostage negotiation on weekends, Yeah, 486 00:29:38,104 --> 00:29:40,784 Speaker 1: spend time with their family. Yes, So PRIs says, okay, 487 00:29:40,864 --> 00:29:44,984 Speaker 1: how about Monday? How about Tuesday? And that Tuesday she 488 00:29:45,264 --> 00:29:49,144 Speaker 1: was back in the US. So this worked. Prize freed 489 00:29:49,464 --> 00:29:53,624 Speaker 1: a pregnant American political prisoner. That is what appears to 490 00:29:53,664 --> 00:29:57,904 Speaker 1: have happened. Yes, all right, okay, that's one for Prose. 491 00:29:58,704 --> 00:30:05,024 Speaker 1: And so after that, Prize is still working on helping 492 00:30:05,224 --> 00:30:09,304 Speaker 1: Joe Low by trying to send Guo back to China, 493 00:30:09,664 --> 00:30:13,864 Speaker 1: and he figures at some point that he can negotiate, 494 00:30:14,664 --> 00:30:17,704 Speaker 1: he can get some information from the FBI. So, after 495 00:30:17,704 --> 00:30:21,464 Speaker 1: this pregnant woman is sent home, you would think the 496 00:30:21,504 --> 00:30:25,904 Speaker 1: Trump administration would take notice and maybe this Guo matter 497 00:30:25,984 --> 00:30:29,984 Speaker 1: would get more attention. That's not what happens. Quo remains 498 00:30:30,544 --> 00:30:34,104 Speaker 1: safely in New York. He's not being sent home. So 499 00:30:34,264 --> 00:30:37,344 Speaker 1: Pros wants to find out what's going on, and he 500 00:30:37,424 --> 00:30:41,504 Speaker 1: does something very bold. He reaches out to the FBI 501 00:30:41,664 --> 00:30:47,064 Speaker 1: and asks for a meeting, and he ends up seeing 502 00:30:47,144 --> 00:30:50,744 Speaker 1: a group of FBI agents in New York. And in 503 00:30:50,784 --> 00:30:54,664 Speaker 1: this meeting, and we know this from government documents, he's 504 00:30:55,984 --> 00:31:01,064 Speaker 1: asking these agents whether Quo has some relationship with the FBI? 505 00:31:01,464 --> 00:31:03,584 Speaker 1: Are you working with him as he is source? Was 506 00:31:03,624 --> 00:31:07,184 Speaker 1: there something that could explain the US government not wanting 507 00:31:07,344 --> 00:31:11,104 Speaker 1: to deport him? And the FBI agents assure him that's 508 00:31:11,144 --> 00:31:14,904 Speaker 1: not the case, but nonetheless he keeps asking. He asks 509 00:31:14,904 --> 00:31:18,144 Speaker 1: this again and again, and he then meets a second 510 00:31:18,184 --> 00:31:21,424 Speaker 1: time with the FBI. The second meeting, an FBI agent 511 00:31:21,504 --> 00:31:25,144 Speaker 1: brings a bunch of photos of Chinese officials, asking Pros 512 00:31:25,224 --> 00:31:30,824 Speaker 1: to identify them, and he correctly identifies Son and son's bodyguard. 513 00:31:31,384 --> 00:31:35,584 Speaker 1: This is a very unusual situation where someone engaged in, 514 00:31:36,224 --> 00:31:40,744 Speaker 1: you know, work with a foreign government would themselves come 515 00:31:40,784 --> 00:31:42,944 Speaker 1: to the FBI out of the blue. That does not 516 00:31:43,064 --> 00:31:45,384 Speaker 1: happen every day. Yeah, it makes things a lot easier 517 00:31:45,384 --> 00:31:48,024 Speaker 1: for them, Yes, it does. And he's still doing all 518 00:31:48,064 --> 00:31:50,784 Speaker 1: this on behalf of JOLO. Joe Lowe is the client 519 00:31:51,064 --> 00:31:53,664 Speaker 1: so to speak. Yeah, he is directing all this. Pros 520 00:31:53,744 --> 00:31:57,144 Speaker 1: and Joe are in probably daily contact. And just so 521 00:31:57,184 --> 00:31:59,304 Speaker 1: I can get into my head, what are the crimes 522 00:31:59,304 --> 00:32:03,144 Speaker 1: Pros might have committed thus far. So he's been indicted 523 00:32:03,184 --> 00:32:07,424 Speaker 1: on ten charges. Some of them have to do with 524 00:32:07,464 --> 00:32:11,624 Speaker 1: election finance, so these donations in twenty twelve. There's also 525 00:32:11,704 --> 00:32:15,864 Speaker 1: witness tampering charge, and there are various charges related to 526 00:32:16,344 --> 00:32:21,304 Speaker 1: unregistered lobby. The FBI has taken ninety six million dollars 527 00:32:21,344 --> 00:32:24,264 Speaker 1: from Praz that they think he's gotten from Joe lo right, 528 00:32:24,704 --> 00:32:26,824 Speaker 1: that is what has been seized by the DJ Yes, 529 00:32:27,544 --> 00:32:29,504 Speaker 1: I mean, and then you figure he's spent some of it. 530 00:32:29,544 --> 00:32:32,344 Speaker 1: I mean that's a lot of that's a lot of money. 531 00:32:32,464 --> 00:32:34,144 Speaker 1: This is big. It's a lot of money. And look, 532 00:32:34,344 --> 00:32:36,344 Speaker 1: that is sort of a theme with anything to do 533 00:32:36,384 --> 00:32:39,744 Speaker 1: with Joe low Is. The numbers kind of get crazy 534 00:32:40,184 --> 00:32:44,624 Speaker 1: very quickly. And the other people involved in this that 535 00:32:44,664 --> 00:32:49,304 Speaker 1: we've been talking about his GOP connections, they've played guilty. 536 00:32:49,544 --> 00:32:52,424 Speaker 1: Lum Davis was sentenced to two years in prison. Roydy 537 00:32:52,504 --> 00:32:54,944 Speaker 1: got pardoned by Trump. But Praz is the only one 538 00:32:54,944 --> 00:32:58,824 Speaker 1: who doesn't plead guilty and make a deal. Right, ultimately, 539 00:32:58,864 --> 00:33:01,464 Speaker 1: that's right? How long can Praz go away for a 540 00:33:01,624 --> 00:33:05,024 Speaker 1: very long time? Because this is a ten count indictment. 541 00:33:05,704 --> 00:33:07,664 Speaker 1: He could beat most of the charges, but if he's 542 00:33:07,664 --> 00:33:10,144 Speaker 1: convicted on one or two, that could still be a 543 00:33:10,144 --> 00:33:14,064 Speaker 1: significant prison sentence. So this is the trial of his life, 544 00:33:14,584 --> 00:33:17,704 Speaker 1: like decades or what are we talking about? If he 545 00:33:17,784 --> 00:33:20,264 Speaker 1: was convicted on and on a lot of these charges, yeah, 546 00:33:20,264 --> 00:33:25,784 Speaker 1: we would be talking decades. Wow. And Jolo's in China, 547 00:33:26,024 --> 00:33:28,864 Speaker 1: I'm sure at the club he was spotted in twenty 548 00:33:28,944 --> 00:33:33,664 Speaker 1: nineteen in Shanghai at Disneyland. Actually, that's a big step down. 549 00:33:33,784 --> 00:33:37,224 Speaker 1: That seems lame to hang on, hang on. There was 550 00:33:37,224 --> 00:33:40,264 Speaker 1: another another sighting? Was it a Victoria's Secret fashion show? 551 00:33:40,504 --> 00:33:44,504 Speaker 1: Which thank you more on brand glow wen Jay? Is 552 00:33:44,904 --> 00:33:48,304 Speaker 1: he still in America? Where is he? Yeah? Still in 553 00:33:48,344 --> 00:33:51,184 Speaker 1: the US. He was never sent home. It's not clear 554 00:33:51,544 --> 00:33:54,304 Speaker 1: what protected him. He's a member of Mara Lago. I 555 00:33:54,344 --> 00:33:56,824 Speaker 1: think he's a member of Mara Lago. Yeah, And there 556 00:33:56,824 --> 00:33:59,184 Speaker 1: have been some reporting that when he was first brought 557 00:33:59,224 --> 00:34:02,584 Speaker 1: up Trump he said, oh, well, we should send this 558 00:34:02,584 --> 00:34:04,784 Speaker 1: guy back to China. They what do we care? And 559 00:34:04,824 --> 00:34:06,464 Speaker 1: then someone pointed out that he was a member of 560 00:34:06,504 --> 00:34:10,424 Speaker 1: Mara Lago and Trump sort of hesitated because, you know, 561 00:34:10,464 --> 00:34:13,304 Speaker 1: you don't deport members of mar Lago. I guess that's 562 00:34:13,344 --> 00:34:16,504 Speaker 1: been reported elsewhere. First rule of Mara Lago. Yeah, yeah, 563 00:34:16,544 --> 00:34:19,464 Speaker 1: you don't deport anyone while you're president. Yeah. I'm so 564 00:34:19,504 --> 00:34:23,264 Speaker 1: confused about pross motivation besides money and all this why 565 00:34:23,344 --> 00:34:27,704 Speaker 1: he kept going. Do you think he's dumb? No, I 566 00:34:27,744 --> 00:34:30,024 Speaker 1: don't think he's dumb. I think he's in many ways 567 00:34:30,224 --> 00:34:34,904 Speaker 1: a sophisticated player. But he got into a situation that 568 00:34:35,144 --> 00:34:38,584 Speaker 1: was perhaps bigger than he knew. Look, it would be 569 00:34:38,584 --> 00:34:41,864 Speaker 1: speculation as to what he was thinking, but it does 570 00:34:41,904 --> 00:34:43,984 Speaker 1: seem that in a lot of cases like this, it's 571 00:34:44,024 --> 00:34:46,264 Speaker 1: kind of one thing leads to another, and when you 572 00:34:46,264 --> 00:34:51,104 Speaker 1: look at it in totality, it seems completely impossible to 573 00:34:51,144 --> 00:34:54,264 Speaker 1: imagine how anyone would get this far but it may 574 00:34:54,304 --> 00:34:55,984 Speaker 1: not have felt like that in the moment. It's like 575 00:34:56,024 --> 00:34:58,424 Speaker 1: William H. Mazy and Fargo, where you kind of have 576 00:34:58,464 --> 00:35:00,824 Speaker 1: this little kidnapping plan and then it kind of goes 577 00:35:00,824 --> 00:35:02,664 Speaker 1: sideways on you and you're not sure how to play 578 00:35:02,704 --> 00:35:06,264 Speaker 1: the next part. Yeah, exactly, things get out of hand. Look, 579 00:35:06,304 --> 00:35:10,704 Speaker 1: I think there is an interesting story here about money 580 00:35:11,104 --> 00:35:13,224 Speaker 1: and what it buys you and what money kind of 581 00:35:13,304 --> 00:35:18,024 Speaker 1: lubricates you know, Joe Lo, this random guy from Malaysia 582 00:35:18,064 --> 00:35:21,904 Speaker 1: was able to give access to the absolute top levels 583 00:35:21,944 --> 00:35:25,824 Speaker 1: of US power and what it takes is money. Matthew, 584 00:35:26,104 --> 00:35:29,664 Speaker 1: you wrote the Fuji, the Fugitive and the FBI for BusinessWeek. 585 00:35:30,304 --> 00:35:33,384 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for explaining all of this to me. 586 00:35:33,464 --> 00:35:37,664 Speaker 1: My head hurts. Does your head hurt? Yeah? It is 587 00:35:37,664 --> 00:35:40,824 Speaker 1: hard to summarize this. There's no elevator pitch for this story. 588 00:35:42,424 --> 00:35:45,104 Speaker 1: While we were working on this episode, we played a 589 00:35:45,144 --> 00:35:49,184 Speaker 1: lot of Proz's one solo hit, Ghetto Superstar. That is 590 00:35:49,224 --> 00:35:52,664 Speaker 1: what you are, featuring Old Dirty Bastard and Maya. You 591 00:35:52,744 --> 00:35:55,224 Speaker 1: might remember this as a song that is pretty much 592 00:35:55,224 --> 00:35:57,904 Speaker 1: a weird al parody of Islands in the Stream with 593 00:35:57,984 --> 00:36:01,304 Speaker 1: some rapping in it, but that rapping in light of 594 00:36:01,304 --> 00:36:05,664 Speaker 1: what's gone on with praz is startling. Here are actual 595 00:36:05,904 --> 00:36:10,784 Speaker 1: lines from the song, The s dream Team always coming 596 00:36:10,864 --> 00:36:14,824 Speaker 1: up with the schemes. My eyes is sore, being a 597 00:36:14,904 --> 00:36:21,744 Speaker 1: senator behind closed doors, hitting truth to the seafloor, black Caesar, dating, 598 00:36:21,824 --> 00:36:26,424 Speaker 1: top divas, diplomatic legal ease, no time for a visa. 599 00:36:28,064 --> 00:36:32,264 Speaker 1: Now there is no way the Justice Department isn't going 600 00:36:32,304 --> 00:36:35,744 Speaker 1: to play these in court next week. I learned about 601 00:36:35,744 --> 00:36:39,424 Speaker 1: the fight that to apart Buy Nothing, which seemed like 602 00:36:39,424 --> 00:36:42,984 Speaker 1: a simple idea to help neighbors share things, but like 603 00:36:43,184 --> 00:36:46,744 Speaker 1: everything else on the Internet, turned into an ugly political fight. 604 00:36:49,304 --> 00:36:52,504 Speaker 1: At the end of the show, what's next for joel Stein? 605 00:36:52,664 --> 00:36:57,624 Speaker 1: Maybe he'll take a nap poke around online. Our show 606 00:36:57,624 --> 00:37:02,864 Speaker 1: Today was produced by Molabard and Nishev Bencutt. It was 607 00:37:03,024 --> 00:37:07,144 Speaker 1: edited by Lydia Gencott. Our engineer is Amanda kay Way 608 00:37:07,784 --> 00:37:12,144 Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Katherine Siradol and our theme 609 00:37:12,184 --> 00:37:15,264 Speaker 1: song was written and performed by Jonathan Colton and a 610 00:37:15,384 --> 00:37:18,224 Speaker 1: special thanks to my voice coach Vicky Merrick and my 611 00:37:18,304 --> 00:37:23,024 Speaker 1: consulting producer laurenz Elasnick. To find more Pushkin podcast, listen 612 00:37:23,064 --> 00:37:26,824 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you listen 613 00:37:26,864 --> 00:37:30,064 Speaker 1: to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein, and this is the 614 00:37:30,144 --> 00:37:32,264 Speaker 1: story of the week. You know, if you if you 615 00:37:32,304 --> 00:37:34,664 Speaker 1: do a pacer search on his name, there are a 616 00:37:34,704 --> 00:37:38,864 Speaker 1: lot of legal cases involving Glow out there. I'm going 617 00:37:38,944 --> 00:37:40,624 Speaker 1: to pretend I'm the kind of journalist who knows what 618 00:37:40,704 --> 00:37:41,504 Speaker 1: a pacer search is.