1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Hey, if you can use stereo headphones to listen to 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: this episode. Hey, welcome to sign Stuff, a production of 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio More Hit Cham And today we're tackling the question 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: do super senses exist? Scientists out there have an idea 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: that we can give humans new senses beyond the ones 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: we already have, and this is done by basically hacking 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: your brain. We're going to be talking to experts about echolocation, 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: a skill some people have to use sonar Like that, dude, 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: how we're going to talk to a scientist that's using 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: technology to one day let us sense things you can't 11 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: see or hear, like collectromagnetic fields or even Wi Fi. 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: So you get ready to augment your awareness as we 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: make sense of the question do super senses exist? Hey, 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Today we're starting our exploration of the limits of our 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: senses by taking a dive into echolocation. This is something 16 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: that some animals like bats, dolphins, some shrews, and digny 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: dormice do where they use sound to know what's around them. 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: Now you might have heard that some people can do 19 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: it too. To fill us in on everything we know 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: about echolocation in humans, I reached out to two of 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: the world's experts on the subject, Professors Laura Thaller and 22 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: Liam Norman of Durham University in the UK. 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: My name is Liam Norman, and a lot of my 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: research concerns human perception, in particular human echolocation. 25 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: I investigate echolocation, in particular how people echolocate and how 26 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 3: they use echolocation to perceive their Welsh and how they 27 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: learn it amazing. 28 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: Maybe can you start us off by explaining what is echolocation. 29 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 3: Echolocation is the process where typically an animal make a sound, 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: That sound goes out in the environment, and then when 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: there's something in the sounds past, it will reflect the 32 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: sound and so that's the echo that then comes back 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 3: to the person and they can hear that echo, and 34 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 3: this carries spatial information. 35 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: But what's around them? Yes, can you give some examples 36 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: of humans that are able to do this? 37 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 3: So one of the possibly most famous non echo locators 38 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 3: Daniel Kish, he is blind from an early age. He's American, 39 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 3: and he has used echo location as long as he 40 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 3: can remember, and he uses mouth clicks as his sound 41 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 3: that he makes. So they're very brief, trendient sound there 42 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: like this, and these sounds then travel out in the 43 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 3: environment and the echoes return to him the reflections of 44 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: the sound. It doesn't mean that he clicks all the time, 45 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: you know, the ouphent situations where he doesn't need to. 46 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: So why do you think this person, Daniel Kish is 47 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: so famous? 48 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 3: Now, Daniel Kish is very good at echo location. We 49 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: have tested his skills and variety experiment and so we 50 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: found that he's extremely good at localizing how fartings are 51 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 3: weigh and whether they are to the left or right, 52 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 3: So he can, for example, determine a shift in the 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: distance of about centimeter. 54 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: Here we're talking about Daniel Kish, one of the most 55 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: well known human echolocators. If you google his name you 56 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: can find lots of videos of him using echolocation. Mister 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: Kish is so good at it. If you place an object, 58 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: say five ft in front of him, he can tell 59 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: if you move that object half an inch closer or 60 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: half an inch back, and he can tell if you 61 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: move it a few inches to the right or to 62 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: the left. He can also tell what shape an object is. 63 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: So it was a bit of a silly experiment, but 64 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 3: we just wanted to test possible So we had different 65 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 3: shapes that were made from cardboards and there were either 66 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: a triangle or a circuleancequere and wrecked angle and represented 67 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 3: one at a time, and he was allowed to click 68 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: at them as long as he wanted and to move 69 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: his head, and she could tell them a part very easily. 70 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: Actually, mister Kish is also able to recognize the texture 71 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: of an object, whether it's rough or smooth, and he 72 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: can tell if something is hollow or flat, can tell 73 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: their size, whether they're up or down, and all of 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: it while being completely blind. It's really quite amazing. But 75 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: here's the surprising fact. Daniel Kish is not unique. There 76 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: are many expert echo locators out there like him, and 77 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: actually doctor Steller and Norman think that anyone can learn 78 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: to echo locate. Okay, so who can do human echo location? 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: That's a good question. The short answer is, anybody who 80 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: has an ability to use hearing normally to locate sounds 81 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: should be able to learn echo location to some degree. 82 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 3: So one thing that we've learned is that anyone can 83 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 3: learn to echolocate people with pickle vision, people who are blind. Obviously, 84 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 3: it is mediated through hearing, so if there's a profound 85 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: hearing loss, then there are natural limits to how this 86 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: can work. But in principle. It's very learnable and we 87 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 3: had in workshops at the youngest child that's learned it 88 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 3: was three years old, and in our research, which today 89 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: has focused on adults, the oldest person was seventy nine 90 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: years old. 91 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: Wow. 92 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: Yes, people from three years old to seventy nine years 93 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: old can learn to echo locate. You don't need to 94 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: be blind or have special hearing to do it, although 95 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: it helps you have been doing it for a while. 96 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 2: As with anything, there is a benefit to learning this 97 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: ability from a young age. So the best human echolocate 98 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 2: is that we know began learning this ability either in 99 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: early or middle childhood. 100 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: Wow. How do you train someone to echo locate? 101 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 3: For our research, we have developed a paradigm where we 102 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 3: have different tasks that we ask people to do. 103 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: Okay, here's how you can train to echo locate. The 104 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: first thing you have to do is learn to make 105 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: the clicking sound with your mouth. 106 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: And so this is usually made by placing the tongue 107 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: in a particular position at the roof of the mouth 108 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: and then keeping the mouth open. You then bring the 109 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: tone down quite quickly and it can create a kind 110 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: of a short popping sound or a clicking sound. It 111 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: sounds like a. 112 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: Now you don't have to make this particular sound. Some 113 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: echo locators use shouts or hissing or whistling. You can 114 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: also use a clicker in your hand. But mouth clicks 115 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: are good because they're short so they don't interfere with 116 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: the echo. They're sharp, so they have lots of high 117 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: frequencies which give you more resolution, and they come from 118 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: your mouth, which is a fixed distance from your ears, 119 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: so it's more consistent. 120 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: And then once you've established that the person is comfortable 121 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: making a mouth click, then it's just about teaching them 122 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: what to listen for in the echoes. And the key 123 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: thing is to start with tasks that are fairly simple 124 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 2: and then just develop the difficulty in a step by 125 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: step way. For example, you can place a large object 126 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: in front of the person. They can be very close 127 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: to the head, and then you ask them to make 128 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: a click, and then you can take the object away. 129 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: They do the same thing again, and you ask them 130 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: to pay attention to the difference in how those two 131 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 2: sounds sound, and then you ask them to judge whether 132 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: they think the object is in front of them or 133 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: whether it's not there, and you can gradually increase the distance, 134 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: and so with practice they should be able to develop 135 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: disability and be able to do these tasks that maybe 136 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: one or two meet a distance after a few weeks. 137 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: And this training works. Even people who don't have a 138 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: visual impairment can learn to have sonar like a bat. 139 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 3: And you'd be surprised. It sounds difficult. But then we 140 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 3: have people who at first are very doubtful, like oh, no, 141 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 3: I cannot dose this as sort of ago, and then 142 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: they come in for the second or third session and 143 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 3: they just get the hang of it. And then we 144 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: asked them to come in for twenty sessions in total, 145 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: and we space this around ten weeks out and by 146 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 3: the end when we benchmark them to someone who's done 147 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 3: this for ten years or more, many of the people 148 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 3: who've trained for just ten weeks reached the level of 149 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: this expert, which suggests, you know, it's a skill that 150 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 3: you don't have to practice for ten years. So for 151 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 3: some people they are very good even earlier on, so 152 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 3: may not even take ten weeks. 153 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: Yes, it seems anyone can learn to echo locate. Even 154 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: you could learn to do it, you just have to 155 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: want to learn. In fact, the two researchers we're talking 156 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: to who are both sided taught themselves to echo locate. 157 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: So you're able to echo locate, you've taught yourself to 158 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: do it. 159 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have had a good role model. I'm not 160 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 3: as good as many of the echo locations, but I'm 161 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: not too bad. I can do some you know, basic stuff. 162 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: Okay, But here's the thing about echo location principle. It's 163 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: easy to know what's going on. You make a sound, 164 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: the sound goes out, it bounces on things, it comes 165 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: back to your ears, and from the echo you can 166 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: tell what's there. But if you talk to anyone who 167 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: can echo locate, they're not really thinking about any of 168 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: the physics or even the timing between the sound and 169 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: the bouncing echo. It's really more of a feeling. Was 170 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: there a moment when it clicked for you? No pun 171 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: intended when you say that, like, Okay, I get it now, 172 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: I understand what to listen for. 173 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. I started out expecting or I must have 174 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: this revelation of this this echo that I'm hearing, but 175 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 3: often that's not what it sounds like. There's something's presented 176 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 3: at one two meters. Also, for me, it's more the 177 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: quality that I'm paying attention to and so that was 178 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: an ahab moment for me. 179 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: I see, it's not so much about hearing the echo, 180 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: but maybe kind of feeling the echo. 181 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 5: Yeah. 182 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: In other words, unless you're sh across the Grand Canyon, Hello, Hello, 183 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: in a room with objects close to you, the echoes 184 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: happen way too fast for us to consciously notice them, 185 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: which means that when you echo locate, your brain is 186 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: sort of processing the echo automatically, and to your conscious self, 187 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: it's just the feeling that you. 188 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 5: Get it's close. 189 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: Or to the right or left, or that it's round 190 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: or rough or smooth. And that means that either your 191 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: brain is already wired to do echolocation, or your brain 192 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: rewires itself as you learn to do it. So when 193 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: we come back, we're going to find out which is 194 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: the case by digging into what happens in the brain 195 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: of people who echo locate, and we're going to find 196 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: out what that means for our ability to hack the 197 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: brain to gain more supersensus. Stay with us, we'll be 198 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: right back. Hey, welcome back. We're talking about whether supersensues exist, 199 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: and we started with e colocation. It's what bats and 200 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: dolphins use to get around and it's something people can 201 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: learn to do. In fact, they can learn to do 202 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: it pretty well, to the point where they can notice 203 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: centimeter changes in the position of things around them and 204 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: even their shape and texture. Now, I asked our two experts, 205 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: professors Laura Thaler and Lean Norman, to describe what happens 206 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: in the brain when people echo locate, and their answer 207 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: is kind of surprising. Okay, so I saw some research 208 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: done by you about what happens to the brain of 209 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: people who learn to echolocate. Can you tell us about that. 210 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is one of the most fascinating 211 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: things about this topic. Who don't have all the answers yet. 212 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: But first of all, that location is obviously processed through 213 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: the auditory system because it is part of our hearing. 214 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: But when we conduct brain imaging studies and we have 215 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 2: expert eclocators in an MRIs Kunner and they listen to 216 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: e colocation sounds they make judgments about them, we find 217 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: that actually it's the part of the brain that we 218 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: normally call the visual codex that is the most active. 219 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: That's where we see by far the most activity in 220 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: the brain in terms of processing these zones. So that's 221 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: quite surprising because we call this visual codex. 222 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: Okay, this is the first interesting fact about the brain 223 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: activity of people who use echolocation, and that is that 224 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: they're part of the brain that scientists normally think is 225 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: used to see things. The visual cortex lights up when 226 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: they echo locate, and this is unexpected because A you 227 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: see this in expert echo locators who are blind, so 228 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: they're definitely not using their eyes and b echolocation only 229 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: uses hearing. So why is the visual cortex being you 230 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: and not only that, Scientists can see these brain areas 231 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: light up in the same way as if the person 232 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: was seeing something in front of them. 233 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 3: When we followed this up later on, wondering is there 234 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: a systematic pattern to this activity, we found that it's 235 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 3: not just responding to the echos, but that there's a 236 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: relationship between the location and space where the echo comes 237 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 3: from and the part of the brain in this eartivisual 238 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 3: context that maps that takeos sound and let's often retract 239 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 3: to as retino topek mapping. 240 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: All right, this is a little complicated but super interesting. 241 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: If you're a sighted person, there's kind of a one 242 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: to one mapping between what you see and which part 243 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: of the visual area of your brain lights up. This 244 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: is the little patch of brain that first gets the 245 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: signals from your eyes. So, for example, if you see 246 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: an image of a black cross on a white background 247 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: and then someone looked at your brain actively in that area, 248 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: they'll see it activate in a little cross pattern as 249 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: if someone was projecting that image onto that part of 250 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: the brain. And if you see a circle in front 251 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: of you, you'll see that area light up in a circle. 252 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: It's super fascinating. But what's amazing is that the scientists 253 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: saw the same thing happen for echoes. In expert echolocators 254 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: who are blind, if they send an object to one 255 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: side of them, then one side of their visual cortex 256 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: would light up, and if they sense an object on 257 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: the other side, the other side of the visual cortex 258 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: would light up. They were using their visual cortex almost 259 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: in the same way a sided person would, and this 260 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: points to something that scientists call sensory plasticity. 261 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: So it seems like there are parts in the brand 262 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: that have a high degree of what we call plasticity, 263 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: which is the capability to change and adapt over time 264 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: to process information from sensory modolities that they ordinarily would process. 265 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: In other words, the wiring of your brain for your 266 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: senses isn't fixed. If your brain notices, for example, that 267 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: you're not using your visual area because maybe you're blind, 268 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: your brain will start using that area for other senses. 269 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: In this case, the visual area is used to process 270 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: what the echo locators are getting through their ears when 271 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: they send out these sounds and then hear the echoes. 272 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: And not only that, Doctor Thaler and Norman think your 273 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: brain actually starts to change. Is there evidence though, that 274 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: people who echolocate for a long time somehow the brain changes. 275 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: Yes, and there is some evidence to suggest that is 276 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: the case. So somebody who who is initially naive to 277 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: this ability but then learns it over maybe a ten 278 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: week period, we find subtle changes in order for your 279 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: brain areas where there might be high gradmouta density in 280 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 2: that area. But at the same time we also get 281 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: these functional changes in visual codex where the role of 282 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: the brain reagion has changed to some extent. 283 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: So when learning to echolocate, your brain possibly grows the 284 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: hearing parts of your brain and it starts using the 285 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: seeing parts of your brain for processing the information you hear. 286 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: In other words, your brain to some degree molds itself 287 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: to this new sense so that it becomes a natural 288 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: addition to your existing senses. And this says something profound 289 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: about the brain. Well, what do you think this says 290 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: about just human senses and human abilities how our brain works. 291 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: I think it says a couple of things. I think 292 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: it tells us that our sensory abilities are much more 293 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: adaptable than what we previously believed. So the classic textbook 294 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: idea is that where you have the visual codex that 295 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: processes site, you have the order free codex that processes 296 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: hearing and so on. But research seem to suggest that 297 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: these brain readers are much more adaptable and they can 298 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: process sensory information from an atypical modality. And so what 299 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: we would call the visual codex isn't necessarily the visual 300 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: codex In many people, people who are blind, they can 301 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 2: use as part of the brainfall many other purposes that 302 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: aren't supported through vision. 303 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 3: It just creates, like, for me, I think this feeling 304 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 3: of yeah, we do have a sensory repertoire that we're 305 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: born with that we use every day, but we can 306 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: actually do a lot more. It just makes you sort 307 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 3: of believe in, you know, other possibilities. If you think 308 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 3: about technology that might make you able to sense the 309 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: mood in a room or favorite example. Also you know, 310 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 3: sense magnetic lords or something like that. You know where 311 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 3: if you have technology to provide you this information and 312 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 3: you know, we should be able to do it. So 313 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 3: I think that's what e location has certainly made me 314 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 3: very confident with that we can expand sensory reportoire. 315 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: Wait, did you just say that we could expand our 316 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: senses so we can sense magnetism using technolology and our 317 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: brain can adapt to that well. As it happens, I 318 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: talked to a scientists working on just this idea. So 319 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: when we come back, we're going to see how technology 320 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: can hack your brain to give you extra senses like 321 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: sensing magnetic fields or even Wi Fi. Stay with us, 322 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Hey, welcome back. We're talking about 323 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: whether supersensus exist. Now, this last segment is going to 324 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: seem a little bit like science fiction. For example, imagine 325 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: a scenario where you're a chef or a cook and 326 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: you work in a commercial kitchen. 327 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 5: And somehow you can tell how hot something. 328 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: Is just by looking at it. You wouldn't have to 329 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: touch it or get near it to tell. You would 330 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: just no, you could tell if a pan was the 331 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: right temperature, or if a piece of steak was hot enough. 332 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: Or imagine, if you could sense the Earth's magnetic field, 333 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: you could have a perfect sense of direction. You would 334 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: always know where north was, no matter how deep in 335 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: a forest you were, or if you were inside a 336 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: building or a crowded city you've never been to. Having 337 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: these kinds of supersensus may seem like science fiction, but 338 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: I promise it's not. It's real science, at least according 339 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: to the next expert I talked to, doctor Amber Mymon. 340 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 4: So my name is Amber Myimon. I'm a researcher at 341 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 4: the interface of neuroscience and human computer interaction. Most of 342 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 4: my research has to do with how we can use 343 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 4: technologies to induce neuroplasticity. 344 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: Now, I always thought that humans had five senses, but 345 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: the first thing I learned from doctor Mymon is that 346 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: apparently we have more than five senses. 347 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 4: So we basically inherited the five senses from philosophers many, many, 348 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 4: many decades ago, such as Aristotle, who said that we 349 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 4: have five basic senses. We have vision, hearing, touch, tastes, 350 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 4: and smell, which people are usually familiar with. 351 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: But we don't have five senses. 352 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 4: So that's the thing. It's an issue of hot debate. 353 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 4: Right now, I can give you an example. We have 354 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 4: something called approprioceptive sense, which is kind of a sense 355 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 4: of where our body parts are located. So I can 356 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 4: know where my hand is located, for example, even if 357 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 4: I don't see my hand. And then we also have 358 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 4: vestibular system, which controls our sense of balance and more 359 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 4: and more. 360 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: Yes, scientists can't really agree how many senses we have. 361 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: Some people say our ability to sense temperature, or to 362 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: feel or heart beat or are breathing, or our sense 363 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: of balance, or even our ability to feel pain should 364 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: also be included in our list of senses. A sense, 365 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: it seems, includes any time we know something about the world, 366 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: including our bodies, without thinking about it. It's when we 367 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: just know information about the world. Okay, now let's get 368 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: to supersensus. Let's get to the topic of supersensus. So 369 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: there's the idea of augmenting your senses. 370 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 4: Right, So the idea of augmenting our senses is generally 371 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 4: changing our sensory abilities in a positive way for some 372 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 4: form of improvement, like for example, Superman and see into 373 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 4: the thermal range. Is it something that I've personally worked 374 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 4: on and it's an interesting time. 375 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: So a supersense is basically giving ourselves the ability to 376 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: sense something we currently can't sense, like seeing into the 377 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: infrared or having X ray vision, or being able to 378 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: sense the Earth's magnetic field. And for that you need technology. 379 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 5: Now. 380 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: According to doctor Mama, there are two ways to do this. 381 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: The first is to base turn yourself into a cyborg. 382 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 4: There are methods to augment our senses that are invasive 383 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 4: or they physically interact with our brain. So I can 384 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 4: give you some examples. You can have an implant, for example, 385 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 4: Retinal prosthesis are known as bionic eyes colloquially in day 386 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 4: to day's each These are implants that electrically stimulate whether 387 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 4: it's the retina today. There are also cortical implants that 388 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 4: stimulate the brain directly, and what they do is they 389 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 4: try to physically create the sensory information. They physically activate 390 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 4: the retina, for example, to allow blind people to have 391 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 4: some form of visual perception. 392 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: And I guess can that be used to augment someone 393 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: without a visual impairment? Like, can I use an implant 394 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: to make me see better? 395 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely. There's also more and more awareness of this 396 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 4: concept of augmenting the senses, which means enhancing or extending. 397 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: So one way to extend our senses with technology is 398 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: with neural prosthetics. In other words, implanting some device senses 399 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: something about the world and then having that device give 400 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: that information directly to your nerves or directly to our brains. 401 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: Believe it or not, that's something that's being developed right now. 402 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: There are retinal implants that can be attached by surgery 403 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: inside your eyeball that will then zap the nerves the 404 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: back of your eye to tell what the device sees 405 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: directly to your brain. 406 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 5: You can imagine that the device could have. 407 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: A regular camera to allow someone who's blind to see, 408 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: or you can imagine using this to give someone a 409 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: super sense. For example, you could attach a camera that 410 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: also sees infrared or X rays, or that has a 411 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: super telescoping lens or a super microscope lens, and then 412 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: the implant would zap your nerves tell your brain what 413 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 1: it sees. I could do a whole episode about this idea. 414 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: But the more interesting idea that doctor Mymo does research 415 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: on is to give someone supersensus without risky invasive eye 416 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: or brain surgery. 417 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 4: But what's really fascinating is that there are also non 418 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 4: invasive ways that take advantage of a couple things. They 419 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 4: take advantage of the fact that we have connections between 420 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 4: our senses. They take advantage of the fact that our 421 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 4: brain is plastic. 422 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: Okay, remember when we talked about echolocation. Echolocation is basically 423 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: a supersense, although it still relies on sensus we already 424 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: have in this case hearing. But echolocation is important because 425 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: of two things we mentioned before. The first is that 426 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: the brain is flexible, and when you echo locate, you 427 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: actually use the parts you usually used to see, the 428 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: visual parts of your brain to process what you hear. 429 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: Scientists call this cross modal correspondence, which is when your 430 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: brain activates connections between the different senses. This is most 431 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: noticeable in people with something called synesthesia, which is when, 432 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: for example, some people say they can hear colors or 433 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: smell sounds. 434 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 4: So, for example, if you're familiar with Billie Eilish, the singer, 435 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 4: or for El Williams, they have reported that when they 436 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 4: associate automatically, they correlate different sounds and colors, and this 437 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 4: affects their artistic abilities. It affects their music and their 438 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 4: music making abilities. And another example is the painter Kandinski. 439 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 4: He also correlated between colors and sounds but also shapes, 440 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 4: and this very much affected his artwork. 441 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: Now, some people have a lot of synesthesia, like the 442 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: artist doctor Maima just mentioned, but all of us have 443 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: to some degree some cross wiring between our senses. For example, 444 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: if I asked you to think of a shape and 445 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: I said the word guba again, gouba, most of you 446 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: probably thought of something round and maybe big. But now 447 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: if I ask you to think of another shape and 448 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: I said the word tikiki, you probably thought of something 449 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: thin or sharp or something with edges. Doctor Maiman says, 450 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: our brains are sort of wired to have associations like that, 451 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: and that can be used to give you supersensus. Well, 452 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: I'm not eager to implant a chip in my eye 453 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: or my brain. So this idea that maybe we can 454 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: augment my senses just by kind of taking advantage of 455 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: these connections between the census, it's super interesting. Tell us 456 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: about that idea. 457 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 4: We have the concept of novel senses, which we can 458 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 4: call supersensus, which is basically taking information in the world 459 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 4: that's not censor information such as air quality, pollution, or 460 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 4: even Wi Fi information that's out there in the world, 461 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 4: and conveying it to people in a sensory way. So, 462 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 4: for example, I can convey Wi Fi information as tactile 463 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 4: information on my body. 464 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: Okay, here's the idea. Instead of directly connecting say an 465 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: infrared camera or compassed directly into your brain or nervous system, 466 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: you could have that device talk to your brain through 467 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: one of your other senses. So, for example, you could 468 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: wear a belt that vibrated the closer you are to 469 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: pointing to the north pole. Or you could wear an 470 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: infrared camera that played a special sound for you whenever 471 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: you were looking at something hot, or you could wear 472 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: glasses that turn pink the closer you are to a 473 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: Wi Fi signal. And at first you might find this 474 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: kind of annoying, or you'd be very self conscious about 475 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: these vibrations or sounds or colors. But after a while, 476 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: doctor Maima says, because of your brain's plasticity, you'll just 477 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: get used to it and it just becomes another one 478 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: of your senses. Okay, this will make more sense with 479 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: an example, So Let's say you wanted to give a 480 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: chef or a cook the ability to see into the 481 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: infrared or to tell how hot or cold something is 482 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: just by looking at it. So how does this technology work. 483 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: There's a camera, right, and the camera is recording the temperature, 484 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: and you're conveying that temperature to the person via sound. 485 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 4: Exactly, that's precisely what we're doing. We're taking the thermal 486 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 4: information acquired through the thermal camera and through an algorithm 487 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 4: and six stages of mapping that I won't get into, 488 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 4: and we divided it into hot, cold, and neutral. 489 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: Okay, So imagine the chef is wearing a camera and 490 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: whenever they look at something hot or cold or room temperature, 491 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: they hear a different sound. For example, whenever the infrared 492 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: camera sees something it knows is hot, it would play 493 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: this sound. When the chef faces something the camera knows 494 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: is cold, you would play this sound. And that's enough 495 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: to give you a super sense. 496 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 4: And this was very intuitive. People with fifteen minutes of 497 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 4: training could learn to identify thermal information hot and cold 498 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 4: information that is invisible to them through their sense of vision. 499 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 4: For example, they could recognize a cold item in a 500 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 4: bag that they couldn't. 501 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: See, now, what's cool is that. In doctor Memo's experiment, 502 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: the sound they played also told the person a little 503 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: about where the hot or cold object was by changing 504 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: the pitch of the sound. 505 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 4: We didn't want them to only perceive the hot and cold. 506 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 4: We also wanted them to know where something hot and 507 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: where something cold is. We played back to them the 508 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 4: auditory information using pitch manipulation. If a hot item was 509 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 4: located higher up, it would have the hot sound, but 510 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 4: also it would have a higher pitched sound, and people 511 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 4: could learn to understand this very quickly, could learn to 512 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 4: perceive this form of information very quickly. 513 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: So, for example, if the chef in the kitchen was 514 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: facing four pots on a stove, the computer would play 515 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: a specific sound to them, and they would instantly and 516 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: intuitively just know which of the four pots was hot 517 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: and which was coal. 518 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 4: And finally, we tested them. We tested them both on 519 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 4: their ability to locate objects through sound, and we tested 520 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 4: them on their ability to recognize the temperature of objects 521 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 4: through sound. And ultimately they got up to something like 522 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 4: eighty seven percent abilities for recognizing thermal information that's invisible 523 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 4: to their eyes. 524 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: And so you're cooking, you're cooking, and I'm training this. 525 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: So now when I see a pen, there's a sound 526 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: plane in my ear, but I'm not thinking about the sound, 527 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: but I know somehow that how hot that pen is? 528 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 3: Exactly? 529 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: Wow, that's super cool, so. 530 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 4: Intuitive to the extent that over time you don't even 531 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 4: hear it as sounds. You perceive it as thermal information. 532 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 5: Wow. 533 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: And so suddenly you have the kind of the superpowers 534 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: of a snake or superman. 535 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely, we want to give these chefs superman abilities. 536 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh wow, Well, chess are superheroes already. 537 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 5: Chefs are superheroes, at least the good ones. All right. 538 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: I think the big takeaway of this episode is that 539 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: supersensus are possible. 540 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 5: It's within our power to teach. 541 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: Ourselves new ways to sense the world, like an echo location, 542 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: and it's within current technology to give us census we 543 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: didn't think we're possible, like sensing magnetic fields or sensing. 544 00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 5: Temperature from afar. 545 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: Need to be firm krypton or get bitten by a 546 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: radioactive spider, or even have something implanted in you, you 547 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: can use the power of the brain's ability to adapt 548 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: to gain or sensus. Now you might be thinking, where 549 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: does this end? What will this do to humans? That 550 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: was the last question I asked doctor Maimund. Well, maybe 551 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: just to wrap it up, what do you think it 552 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: would do to us as people? As humans if we 553 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: have supersensus, Like let's say suddenly I'm walking around and 554 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: I'm aware of the temperature of things, and I'm aware 555 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: of how strong the WiFi is, and I'm aware of 556 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: the air quality, all of this at the same time, 557 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: what do you think it's going to do to us? 558 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 4: So ultimately, at the very simplest level, it will increase 559 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 4: our performance abilities, right, It'll maximize what we can do 560 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 4: in this world. It's really getting people to maximize their 561 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 4: potential and stretch their brain to its life limits and 562 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: find out what we can do that we don't currently do. 563 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: All Right, I hope that all made sense and maybe 564 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: even super sense. Thanks for joining us. See you next 565 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: time you've been listening to science stuff. Production of iHeartRadio 566 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: written and produced by me or Hey Cham, edited by 567 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: Rose Seguda, executive producer Jerry Rowland, and audio engineer and 568 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: mixer k cy peprom And you can follow me on 569 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: social media. Just search for PhD Comics and the name 570 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: of your favorite platform. Be sure to subscribe to sign 571 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you 572 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and please tell your friends we'll be 573 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: back next Wednesday with another episode.