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Speaker 2: We are often drawn to a person who brings characteristics
Speaker 2: that we are trying to get away from. Are you
Speaker 2: looking for chemistry for a love story or are you
Speaker 2: looking for chemistry for a life story?
Speaker 1: To a psychotherapist, author and hosts around the clause, welcome,
Speaker 1: How do you turn conflict into connection?
Speaker 2: It's not what you fight about, it's what you fight for.
Speaker 1: How do you know if a relationship is worth saving?
Speaker 1: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
Speaker 1: you to join this community to hear more interviews that
Speaker 1: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All
Speaker 1: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
Speaker 1: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your
Speaker 1: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to
Speaker 1: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much
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Speaker 1: one health and well inness podcast Jay Sheety Jay Shetty say,
Speaker 1: hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one
Speaker 1: health and wellness podcast in the world. Thanks to each
Speaker 1: and every one of you that come back every week
Speaker 1: to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is
Speaker 1: someone that we've had on before, and you loved her.
Speaker 1: I know you loved her before, but you loved her
Speaker 1: on the show and I couldn't wait to get her
Speaker 1: back on because we've never actually met in person until
Speaker 1: this day. I've loved her books from Afar, We've connected
Speaker 1: over messagings and emails, and we have so many mutual friends,
Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful that I finally get to sit
Speaker 1: in her present today and actually get to do this
Speaker 1: interview face to face. Please welcome back to On Purpose, Esther, peroo, Esther,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this, Thank you for
Speaker 1: making the time. Thank you genuinely so grateful.
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here in three d.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly after all these years. I think the first
Speaker 1: time I interviewed you must have been during the pandemic
Speaker 1: or something like that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember I remember very clearly seeing you
Speaker 2: through the screen and saying, oh, this is a new life.
Speaker 1: I love it. Well, let's say, let's dive straight in
Speaker 1: because I have so many questions today. I have questions
Speaker 1: from me, I have questions from our audience, we have
Speaker 1: questions from social media. We're going to get to play
Speaker 1: your game as well, which I'm very excited about and
Speaker 1: pick some questions from. But my first question is, how
Speaker 1: do you know if a relationship is worth saving?
Speaker 2: Shall I stay or shall I go? Is one of
Speaker 2: the fundamental questions. And here's the thing. Even if you
Speaker 2: decide to stay, or even if they decide to go,
Speaker 2: you may do so while at the same time having
Speaker 2: a part of you that actually holds the other side.
Speaker 2: If you think that the decision is one hundred percent perfect,
Speaker 2: no doubt, no hesitation, then it's a set up. If
Speaker 2: you leave, you need to be able to leave while
Speaker 2: experiencing the loss of some things that may have been good,
Speaker 2: even if it's just a dream of what was. If
Speaker 2: you stay, you have to be able to grieve the
Speaker 2: part of you that will never know what it would
Speaker 2: have been like if you actually left. So the answer
Speaker 2: is not in the extreme determination. It's in the ability
Speaker 2: to hold the inherent contradictions it's a complex question, and
Speaker 2: complex questions don't have easy, binary answers.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting, isn't it, Because we crave a binary,
Speaker 1: easy answer we wanted to feel. We often seek complete
Speaker 1: clarity when we're trying to make a decision rather than
Speaker 1: accepting that a decision is followed by consequences and a
Speaker 1: number of different feelings. You use the word grief there, yes,
Speaker 1: And I've seen research that shows how when someone breaks
Speaker 1: up with you, or when you break up with someone,
Speaker 1: you almost crave them, like we crave an addiction that
Speaker 1: may even be unhealthy for us at times. Why do
Speaker 1: you use the word grief? And can you walk us
Speaker 1: through both of those losses of identity that you spoke
Speaker 1: about on either end?
Speaker 2: So grief is because I think every choice comes with loss.
Speaker 2: The consequence is the choice you didn't make and even
Speaker 2: though you think this is the right choice and this
Speaker 2: is what I must do, the grief may be the
Speaker 2: fact that you didn't you were not capable of making
Speaker 2: this thing work, or that you had such high hopes
Speaker 2: and it didn't materialize, or that you have wished that
Speaker 2: you didn't make some mistakes that you made, or that
Speaker 2: you wish you had left sooner. There's lots of dim
Speaker 2: fruit ways, but there is no choice that doesn't have loss,
Speaker 2: and therefore some grief attached to it, and that is
Speaker 2: the nature of the beast. That does not mean that
Speaker 2: you didn't make the right choice in terms of heartbreak,
Speaker 2: It's a different part. Yes, some people experience heartbreak with
Speaker 2: such an ache, with such a sense of longing and
Speaker 2: such a sense of fracturing on the inside that they
Speaker 2: are that their longing becomes obsessive, that they are trapped
Speaker 2: in rumination, and that it experienced like a withdrawal. That
Speaker 2: is not all breakups, but that is the extreme kind
Speaker 2: of breakup which has been compared to an addiction because
Speaker 2: of the intense sense of withdrawal and because it takes
Speaker 2: place in the same centers in the brain.
Speaker 1: Let's say someone does want to save their relationship, they
Speaker 1: want to make it work. What does that take on
Speaker 1: a deeper level from that individual? What have you seen
Speaker 1: over the years of what it really takes. I think
Speaker 1: we often think of saving a relationship as like, let's
Speaker 1: do more date nights, let's spend more time together, let's
Speaker 1: do more this. But what have you seen it really
Speaker 1: takes from a human.
Speaker 2: So look, I work with relationships for forty years. These
Speaker 2: are questions that I can answer in multiple ways. So
Speaker 2: I'm going to answer it in one way with you today,
Speaker 2: and somebody is going to say, but you didn't talk
Speaker 2: about that. So I just want to preface that because
Speaker 2: there isn't one size fits all. And when I'm going
Speaker 2: to highlight something now with you, because it's the first
Speaker 2: thing that came into my mind. When you ask what
Speaker 2: can we do to actually repair our relationships, strengthen them,
Speaker 2: fortify them, solidify them, enlivened them, one of the first
Speaker 2: things I often think about is accountability. It's actually not
Speaker 2: asking the other person to do all the changing. Somebody
Speaker 2: is going to tell me, but what if you've done
Speaker 2: that and it hasn't made any difference on the other side.
Speaker 2: So I just want that to be mentioned in Generally,
Speaker 2: in relationships, we often get to a place where we
Speaker 2: think you need to change. Here. I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: you what you could do differently that would make this
Speaker 2: relationship better. And the hardest thing to do is to
Speaker 2: actually say what can I do? Because if you change,
Speaker 2: it is quite sure that it will also create change
Speaker 2: on the other side. Because we are interdependent parts in
Speaker 2: a relationship. I start to do something which makes you
Speaker 2: do something, which makes me do something. It's a figure eight.
Speaker 2: But if I start to do something else sooner or later,
Speaker 2: you cannot continue do the same. If I no longer
Speaker 2: answer you when you say something, there's a good chance
Speaker 2: that at some point you're going to stop saying it
Speaker 2: because you don't get the reaction that you've been used
Speaker 2: to get. So there's no better way to change the
Speaker 2: other than to change ourselves. But that's not one hundred
Speaker 2: percent thing. It's just a good principle to keep in mind.
Speaker 2: What is it that I can do differently? What's one
Speaker 2: thing I could choose that I know would improve the
Speaker 2: relationship because I've heard you, because I know us, And
Speaker 2: if I don't instantly walk out every time, but I
Speaker 2: actually stay and I listen and I pay attention, will
Speaker 2: that create something rather than thinking about, you know, all
Speaker 2: the good reasons why I should get out or leave
Speaker 2: in that moment. So this accountability piece is very high
Speaker 2: on my list, But there are ten other things about
Speaker 2: what makes us work on a relationship to improve it.
Speaker 1: And you talked about there, how you know, trying to
Speaker 1: change the other person isn't necessarily the focus, but for
Speaker 1: so many of us, that seems to be the problem.
Speaker 1: The problem seems to be the other person's behaviors, their attitude,
Speaker 1: their approach to life, maybe their aspirations. I hear a
Speaker 1: lot of people say things like they don't dream enough,
Speaker 1: they don't dream, they dream too little, right, like it's
Speaker 1: much too much, Right, that's it. Yeah. I hear some
Speaker 1: people say they don't dream enough, they dream too much. Yes.
Speaker 1: I hear people say, oh, they have too many friends,
Speaker 1: they have no friends, right. I see people at both
Speaker 1: ends of the spectrum. We always seem to have issues
Speaker 1: with how our partners live. And what I've learned, at
Speaker 1: least in my own personal reflection, and I've found, is
Speaker 1: that for a long time in my relationships, I often
Speaker 1: projected the way I lived onto my partner, and we
Speaker 1: so strongly believe that the way we live is right,
Speaker 1: the way we were brought up is right, that we
Speaker 1: want our partner to kind of follow suit. And I
Speaker 1: always give this very small example from my own home.
Speaker 1: But in my house, we used to eat, hang out,
Speaker 1: and then at the end of the night we'd wash
Speaker 1: the dishes. In my wife's home, they used to eat,
Speaker 1: wash the dishes, and then hang out. And so when
Speaker 1: we got married and we started living together, and when
Speaker 1: we were having friends over or whatever it may be,
Speaker 1: in my mind, we're gonna eat, we're gonna hang out,
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna wash the dishes. And now my
Speaker 1: wife's sat mind, she's thinking, we're gonna eat. Now we
Speaker 1: have to clean up, make sure everything's clean, and then
Speaker 1: we can hang out. And something as little as that
Speaker 1: can call so much friction and bad communication and feelings of, oh,
Speaker 1: you don't care about me, and you don't love me,
Speaker 1: and you don't appreciate me, or you don't value the work.
Speaker 1: And there's so much that comes from something. And that's
Speaker 1: just a very small example. But it's interesting to me
Speaker 1: that in that scenario, we both had not created a
Speaker 1: new belief system for our relationship, but we're operating based
Speaker 1: on two old belief systems that we'd simply adopted. Walk
Speaker 1: us through, whether you agree, whether you disagree, whether you
Speaker 1: can edit that, reveal more to us about I find
Speaker 1: so many of our challenges exist because we project our
Speaker 1: operating system onto someone else, rather than creating one with them.
Speaker 2: I like the way you call it the operating system.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to take a sentence that you highlighted
Speaker 2: and start from there. You said, here, we were fighting
Speaker 2: about what's the right moment to do the dishes, But
Speaker 2: in fact, what we were talking about is you don't care.
Speaker 2: You don't see me, you don't appreciate me. You wanted
Speaker 2: your way. And what you're highlighting here is something that
Speaker 2: I've actually talked a lot about in a new course
Speaker 2: that I'm doing on conflict, which is exactly that how
Speaker 2: do you turn conflict into connection? And one of the
Speaker 2: things I say is that it's not what you fight about,
Speaker 2: it's what you fight for. You were fighting for recognition,
Speaker 2: you were fighting for power and control, you were fighting
Speaker 2: for respect, you were fighting for trust and closeness. Underneath
Speaker 2: the fight, there are usually three sets of issues that
Speaker 2: we are actually fighting for, and that is power, trust,
Speaker 2: and value. So you don't value me. You know, I
Speaker 2: worked on this cooking, I've made this nice meal, like prepared.
Speaker 2: I try to be kind to your friends, and you
Speaker 2: don't value me. Once you've understood that, what is the
Speaker 2: hidden dimension that you are actually fighting for? The fight
Speaker 2: the dishes, the when to do them becomes a lot
Speaker 2: more clear. A lot more clear, rather than it's not
Speaker 2: just I'm imposing my belief on you and I want
Speaker 2: it to do my way because my way is the
Speaker 2: right way. That's you may think this way. But the
Speaker 2: question is what happens when you have to confront yourself
Speaker 2: with someone who is different. I mean, everything about relationships
Speaker 2: is about straddling sameness and difference, you know, and when
Speaker 2: you are a couple's therapists, it's very typical that people
Speaker 2: come to you and I could drop off center right.
Speaker 2: They tell you, you know, here my relationship, here's my partner.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you what's wrong with them, and maybe
Speaker 2: you can fix them. And I'll help.
Speaker 3: You jump on how to make my partner understand why
Speaker 3: my family's way of doing things is the best way
Speaker 3: of doing things.
Speaker 2: It's a very good way. And so then the question
Speaker 2: is if you have to change your mind, does that
Speaker 2: mean that it's a loss of your identity or can
Speaker 2: you actually experience that as an expansion as something that
Speaker 2: you in How do you let the other person influence
Speaker 2: you without being constantly in the defense of your you know,
Speaker 2: this is my flag and here are my values or
Speaker 2: my operation system.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really really relate to what you're saying. And
Speaker 1: I love how you've broken it down to what we're
Speaker 1: fighting for versus what we're fighting about. I think that's brilliant.
Speaker 1: And that's from your masterclass, right.
Speaker 2: No, this is from my own new course.
Speaker 1: Oh, this is from that.
Speaker 2: I am coming out with it very soon. And that's
Speaker 2: really about letting people have a very different view and
Speaker 2: set of skills for handling conflict like this one. You know,
Speaker 2: at first it was a nice thing. You didn't fight about.
Speaker 2: You just said, we do it. Oh, that's so interesting. No,
Speaker 2: let's do it now. No, And then slowly, because you
Speaker 2: couldn't come into an unified agreement, it became a point
Speaker 2: of contention. And then that point of contention became the
Speaker 2: go to every time you need to talk about your backgrounds,
Speaker 2: your values, your style, your priorities, your way of doing.
Speaker 1: I think we feel so robbed, or at least when
Speaker 1: I speak to people about this, they feel so robbed,
Speaker 1: as you said, of their identity. But also, as you said,
Speaker 1: people feel robbed of their power that if I give
Speaker 1: in to this other person, my partner may be the
Speaker 1: more powerful one in the relationship, or if I concede,
Speaker 1: then in the future when we're making decisions, they're going
Speaker 1: to think I'm going to concede. And often that is
Speaker 1: the case that people get into relationships because they think
Speaker 1: the other person is submissive or conceding to them, or
Speaker 1: agrees with them on everything they say. And then one
Speaker 1: day that person goes, wait a minute, I didn't realize
Speaker 1: I just gave up everything I care about for you.
Speaker 1: And so how does one learn how to practice that
Speaker 1: humility and giving up of power? Or is the solution
Speaker 1: a unified agreement as you called it just there? What
Speaker 1: are we trying to unravel? How do we do that?
Speaker 1: Because I think that, but.
Speaker 2: You just betrayed yourself in the question. Okay, your whole
Speaker 2: question is framed in power terms. Concede, acquiesce, give in
Speaker 2: loss of self, loss of power. Yes, some people feel
Speaker 2: this way. That is one frame for some people to
Speaker 2: enter into a relationship. But if I actually change the
Speaker 2: word power, I could go like this. In every relationship,
Speaker 2: you will find that there often is one person who
Speaker 2: is more afraid of losing the other and one person
Speaker 2: who is more afraid of losing themselves, one person more
Speaker 2: afraid of abandonment and rejection, therefore more likely to acquiesce,
Speaker 2: to pacify, to placate, to say yes, until maybe one
Speaker 2: day not and one person more afraid of suffocation. And
Speaker 2: therefore they fight for their ideas, their ways of doing it.
Speaker 2: The timing of the dishes, and that is less about power.
Speaker 2: That is more about the nature of connection. The majority
Speaker 2: of power struggles in a relationship are not power struggles.
Speaker 2: Power is the defense. The control battle is the way
Speaker 2: people are defending, trying to get something for something else
Speaker 2: that they are worried about. It's the surface behavior. You know,
Speaker 2: some people, when they're afraid, they fight, but the issue
Speaker 2: is not fighting. The issue is that they're actually afraid
Speaker 2: and they're trying to deal with their fear by gaining control.
Speaker 2: So don't just go for what you see, because what
Speaker 2: you see isn't necessarily just what it is. Go always
Speaker 2: looking at a level below. Otherwise you're going to have
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: Of this yeah exactly. And so you're encouraging those people
Speaker 1: that feel that way to look at that layer deeper.
Speaker 1: The giving in yeah makes.
Speaker 2: You lose your identity. Where did you get that idea?
Speaker 2: Who did you have to fight with that? You had
Speaker 2: a sense that if you don't go all the way
Speaker 2: and with fists. That's the motion of fighting. Right. It's
Speaker 2: not this, you know, but you enter the relationship with that,
Speaker 2: and yet you live it with this. So what happened
Speaker 2: to you that is making you continuously interpret every situation
Speaker 2: as a fight, as a power struggle, as I have
Speaker 2: to stand up and hold on because if I give in,
Speaker 2: this is the beginning of a slippery slope. That's a
Speaker 2: frame that is not the truth. Now, maybe you picked
Speaker 2: somebody with whom this is sometimes what is going to happen.
Speaker 2: So then you ask this person what happens if you
Speaker 2: don't get you awigh? For you, the question is what
Speaker 2: happens if the other person gets their way? And for you,
Speaker 2: the question is what happens when you don't get you awagh?
Speaker 2: Can you still feel confident even if you don't trample somebody?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think the questions you answer asking that
Speaker 1: we all need to reflect on for ourselves. I almost
Speaker 1: think they're as important to ask our partners, like to
Speaker 1: understand what happened to them, like why they're in that position,
Speaker 1: why they get afraid? And I think that curiosity is
Speaker 1: so often lost in romantic relationships, where we don't understand
Speaker 1: why someone is the way they are. We just assume
Speaker 1: that it's about us, like we make it personal. We
Speaker 1: don't recognize that they have a whole history of relationships,
Speaker 1: of family, of parenting, of experiences that have made them
Speaker 1: that way, and maybe they are dealing with a deep
Speaker 1: fear or a deep challenge. Does that resonate?
Speaker 2: Yes, you know. This thing about curiosity is the most
Speaker 2: important shift. We try to make Curiosity about yourself and
Speaker 2: curiosity about your partner or friend or coworker, whoever. The
Speaker 2: other is. Curiosity is on the other side of reactivity.
Speaker 2: So everything dealing with conflict is about helping us shift
Speaker 2: from reactive to reflective and curious. But more interestingly, what
Speaker 2: you reminded me of is a thing I talk about
Speaker 2: in the course. That's called fundamental attribution error. If you
Speaker 2: are nasty or reactive, or bullying me a bit, or
Speaker 2: if just simply if you late whatever you're doing, that
Speaker 2: the tendency is to think that when you do this,
Speaker 2: it's because you have a negative personality. But if I
Speaker 2: am nasty or short, or you know, cutting a little bit,
Speaker 2: then it's because I had a tough day. Mine is
Speaker 2: circumstantial and yours is character logical and the loss of
Speaker 2: curiosity in relationships is because we tend to think that
Speaker 2: we are more complex than our partner. And that's what
Speaker 2: makes us not ask what is your story with this?
Speaker 2: Why do you need to get things your way all
Speaker 2: the time? Why do you have to really din until
Speaker 2: I finally say whatever you want there? You know, we'll
Speaker 2: do it your way? Because unless you got it your way,
Speaker 2: you think that you are, you know, on the floor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people and as that you've I mean,
Speaker 1: you've done this for decades now, Like I'm sure you
Speaker 1: feel that what we're really addressing here, which I'm so
Speaker 1: happy that we've kind of gone in this direction. It's
Speaker 1: beautiful and I'm so happy that with that that this
Speaker 1: idea of are you curious about yourself and why it's
Speaker 1: happening and what happened to you? Are you curious about
Speaker 1: your partner and what happened to them? Are you not
Speaker 1: making it personal? Are you thinking about working as a team,
Speaker 1: building unified agreements? All of this language is so positive
Speaker 1: and I genuinely believe that what we've just covered is
Speaker 1: so often missed in relationships because we're so busy pointing
Speaker 1: the finger and pointing the blame and pointing the responsibility
Speaker 1: that as you started off with, there's a lack of accountability,
Speaker 1: and that being such a brilliant shift to even just
Speaker 1: start liberating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually liberating for people to say, let me
Speaker 2: check myself for a minute. The fear that people have
Speaker 2: is why me, is it my problem? Why are you
Speaker 2: blaming me?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: No, no. Taking responsibility is liberating because the only thing
Speaker 2: you can really change is you. There's a lot more
Speaker 2: freedom to do something about yourself than to go look
Speaker 2: for your partner on the other side. I had a
Speaker 2: moment like that simply so I was on the phone
Speaker 2: and I was a little agitated talking to banks and
Speaker 2: people and administrating bureaucracy, which gets me agitated. And then
Speaker 2: my partner said, you know you doo. And then my
Speaker 2: partner says, my husband says to me, I have a headache.
Speaker 2: I said, what happened? He says, You've been so yelling
Speaker 2: here next to me in the car, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm trying to solve these problems and you
Speaker 2: can't just say to me, you know, that's really frustrating.
Speaker 2: These people were like keeping you on the phone for
Speaker 2: an hour. You think I wanted to be on the
Speaker 2: phone for an hour with this, and I just felt
Speaker 2: like a little lack of empathy, please, a bit of sympathy,
Speaker 2: some support, And on top of it, I'm getting called now.
Speaker 1: For my attitude.
Speaker 2: And I sat there and I began, you know, brooding,
Speaker 2: and I said, Okay, I'm not going to talk to you.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I thought, if you don't want to, if I'm that unpleasant,
Speaker 2: well then I'm not going to say anything. And then
Speaker 2: I sat in there and thinking, I'm married almost forty
Speaker 2: I'm thinking to myself, am I going to go do
Speaker 2: this one again?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Why am I doing this? Why do I feel so upset?
Speaker 2: Why don't I just simply say I can imagine that
Speaker 2: it was unpleasant to So he says to me, why
Speaker 2: don't you say something about the fact that it's really
Speaker 2: annoying to sit next to someone who is so agitated?
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, why doesn't you say something about how
Speaker 2: frustrated it is that I need to be so agitated,
Speaker 2: you know? And this could have turned into a real fight.
Speaker 2: And luckily a little bit of humor takes us out
Speaker 2: of this very quickly. It's like we game, like how
Speaker 2: many minutes are we going to do this? Yes, you know,
Speaker 2: And where was that coming from? After all this time? Like,
Speaker 2: like you said, you've been together for four decades, you
Speaker 2: love each other, like you trust each other, You've worked
Speaker 2: through so many of these things.
Speaker 1: What do you think it is that we're still fighting
Speaker 1: for in that moment? Like? What is it? Because it
Speaker 1: doesn't go away? You're right, like he has two answers.
Speaker 2: I mean, we would have very different answers to your question.
Speaker 2: First of all, just so you understand, I will tell
Speaker 2: you I sometimes, you know, hear him talk in a
Speaker 2: situation like this and he's very could you explain to
Speaker 2: me why this is? And I'm thinking tell him that
Speaker 2: this is not right, you know, And he says afterwards
Speaker 2: he hangs up, just I was very angry on the phone.
Speaker 2: Excuse me. That is good, you know. So I don't
Speaker 2: think I get much further by being more you know,
Speaker 2: confrontational than Actually I don't think I'm any more effective.
Speaker 2: I think these situations are frustrating whichever way. But we
Speaker 2: get into an argument over which of our approaches is
Speaker 2: the better one to talk with the bureaucracy.
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous, yeah, exactly, And it's so.
Speaker 2: He thinks I should be nicer, right, right, and I
Speaker 2: think he should be a little more.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And what are you saying. Are you saying
Speaker 1: that neither approach matters and we're arguing about something insignificant
Speaker 1: or is it?
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. You're in a situation where you are
Speaker 2: bound to not necessarily be success. Yes, you're bound to
Speaker 2: experience some helplessness. It is frustrating, The situation is frustrating.
Speaker 2: Instead of dealing with the frustration of the situation, you
Speaker 2: start to blame the other person for the fact that
Speaker 2: they didn't get to the result that you wanted. Instead
Speaker 2: of this kind of situation where you go back week
Speaker 2: after week with another person on the phone automated thing,
Speaker 2: you know, and instead of align together against the situation,
Speaker 2: you start to project onto the other. Why are you
Speaker 2: not competent so that I don't have to feel so helpless?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yeah, wow, yeah exactly, And I can
Speaker 1: relate that we had a similar one kind of inverse
Speaker 1: to what you just said, but a similar interaction where
Speaker 1: I remember my wife would often say to me, I've
Speaker 1: had a really tough day, and I take that as
Speaker 1: an opportunity to say.
Speaker 2: I had a tough day too, and.
Speaker 1: I had a tough week really, you know. And it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm using her opportunity to be vulnerable and to share
Speaker 1: how she feels with me and to feel comforted and
Speaker 1: supported and just heard to be heard. I'm using her
Speaker 1: opportunity to be heard to hear myself. And it's kind
Speaker 1: of like when you were looking at me looking at
Speaker 1: myself earlier. It's like that that idea of she's saying, hey,
Speaker 1: just sit with me for a second, and I'm saying,
Speaker 1: when I sit with me for a week and think
Speaker 1: about where I'm coming from, you, yeah, And then that
Speaker 1: it just turns into a competition as to whose life
Speaker 1: is tougher and making the other person feel like their
Speaker 1: pain is not valuable or that their stress that they've
Speaker 1: gone through is insignificant compared to mine. And all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you're fighting for something that you don't even
Speaker 1: want to prove to your partner, Like I don't want
Speaker 1: to make my partner feel like their pain is not valuable.
Speaker 1: But because I'm not honoring my challenge and my stress
Speaker 1: and what I'm going through, I'm expecting to use their
Speaker 1: space to do that.
Speaker 2: You just expanded very well, but sometimes yeah, please, I
Speaker 2: mean the effect is the same you topping her, you know,
Speaker 2: in such a big way, completely says to her you
Speaker 2: have nothing to complain about, which is not necessarily your intention,
Speaker 2: but it is often way the other person registers it.
Speaker 2: And then the question to you is do you ever
Speaker 2: say to her I have a tough week without her
Speaker 2: prompt Yes, because part of what happens is that you
Speaker 2: get prompted by the other person and it suddenly says, oh,
Speaker 2: if you give yourself the permission to say to complain
Speaker 2: or to just vent a moment, then maybe I get
Speaker 2: that permission too. And what changes it is to just,
Speaker 2: you know, is to acknowledge what it has just been
Speaker 2: said and then to say I have that feeling often too. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it is the competition. It is the you suffer
Speaker 2: I suffer more.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Now, Now something that's really helped me to
Speaker 1: use humor. Now, Yeah, my white wife can make anything funny.
Speaker 1: So I rely on her to bring the humor in
Speaker 1: because she's just very Yeah, she's just she's hilarious's comedians,
Speaker 1: so not as a not professionally, she's just a funny
Speaker 1: person and so she can always add that. But Now
Speaker 1: what really helps me, and this is more what I'm like,
Speaker 1: is I'm kind of preemptive of stress, and so I'll
Speaker 1: sit down and hey, I've got a really stressful week
Speaker 1: coming up. I just want you to be aware of that.
Speaker 1: And so you know, if I'm a bit shorter, i'm
Speaker 1: running around, or I'm not fully pressed, I just want
Speaker 1: you to be aware. I've got a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: going on, and if you need me, of course I'll
Speaker 1: be there, but just know. And I like to set
Speaker 1: that up and communicate that because to me, it gives
Speaker 1: me space to at least let her know where I'm
Speaker 1: coming from, rather than to catch me in a bad
Speaker 1: moment and then I end up behaving in a way
Speaker 1: that I'm not proud of, whereas now she's aware. So
Speaker 1: now she's mindful of that too, and she doesn't have
Speaker 1: to tiptoe around meal, she doesn't have to be unaware.
Speaker 1: But it's the idea that she's conscious that I get it.
Speaker 1: He's got three crazy days coming up, and you know,
Speaker 1: we can talk about something maybe the day after.
Speaker 2: Can I take this one asleep?
Speaker 1: I love that. I'd love that.
Speaker 2: It's probably one of the most useful things I have
Speaker 2: seen changing in a relationship. When you do what you
Speaker 2: just do, you're attentive, you're caring, You let her know
Speaker 2: you're apologetic, and being apologetic is very beautiful, but it
Speaker 2: still says my life is very important, and I just
Speaker 2: want you to know I'm not going to be there.
Speaker 2: The step that really changes it around is when you
Speaker 2: say to the other person, I'm so thankful that you
Speaker 2: are here. Because you're being here is what enables me
Speaker 2: to go take care of.
Speaker 1: My busy week.
Speaker 2: Because once you say it like that, you make the
Speaker 2: other person very important and not my life is so important.
Speaker 2: Thank you for understanding it. You come after. I'll be
Speaker 2: there if you need me, but you come after. The
Speaker 2: thanking reinforces the interdependence, and it's true because you couldn't
Speaker 2: go and attend to your life the way you do
Speaker 2: without having the other person do whatever it takes for
Speaker 2: you to be able to be absent for a while.
Speaker 2: And when you acknowledge that, it makes them feel like
Speaker 2: they're part of the story rather than they're on hold
Speaker 2: while your story on false.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. And I've
Speaker 1: always found that, at least for me, doing that separately
Speaker 1: in different contexts, has at least helped me when it's
Speaker 1: not tied to the same context. But I love that
Speaker 1: idea and I fully agree with you, Like you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's a nice Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2: It's a tweak that really changes the power dynamics and
Speaker 2: the relationship in a small move.
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, it's switching the significance from yourself yes, to
Speaker 1: this relationship and the support that you each provide. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. I love that. I love what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: And you've probably heard this a million times, and that's
Speaker 1: what I think it's important to address. A lot of
Speaker 1: people will say I want to talk to my partner
Speaker 1: about these things. I want to be curious about them.
Speaker 1: I want to ask them about their past. But every
Speaker 1: time I do, they shut down, they go quiet, they
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it. If I get curious
Speaker 1: and say, hey, you know, when we're not arguing, when
Speaker 1: we're just talking, and I say, hey, you know what
Speaker 1: I just I just wanted to figure out, like, is
Speaker 1: there anything that scares you from your pastor is anything
Speaker 1: that worries your is there any challenge you're going through
Speaker 1: that how can I help you? And the other person
Speaker 1: is no, No, I'm fine, I'm okay. I'm dealing with it.
Speaker 1: And people often feel like they get shut down when
Speaker 1: they're trying to be curious. I'm sure you've heard a
Speaker 1: million times in sessions, and how have you how have
Speaker 1: you dealt with that?
Speaker 2: If you've tried to ask your partner a certain set
Speaker 2: of questions and you systematically get the same answer, change tactic.
Speaker 2: The point is not doing it one more time hoping
Speaker 2: that this time you're going to get a better response.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit like Moses and the rock. You know,
Speaker 2: the water won't flow. So what I like is not
Speaker 2: to be so direct. You know, somebody told me recently
Speaker 2: that they had gone to an off site at work,
Speaker 2: so it started in a different context, but it's a
Speaker 2: good example. And she organized this whole off side and
Speaker 2: she took a card from the game from where should
Speaker 2: we begin? And the card was us somebody who impacted
Speaker 2: your life and doesn't know it. And the whole group
Speaker 2: went through this question and basically people spoke that you
Speaker 2: knew nothing about, people who never talk, and people who
Speaker 2: you thought you knew that came up with stories that
Speaker 2: you had no idea about. Try to do it in
Speaker 2: a more playful way. Try to do it sometimes as
Speaker 2: part of a dinner conversation. Try to do it with
Speaker 2: a question that is less on the nose, you know,
Speaker 2: and that invites you to start from anywhere you want.
Speaker 2: This is an interesting question that you can answer at
Speaker 2: so many levels of debt. There many of those. If
Speaker 2: you just say, tell me about your past. No, you know,
Speaker 2: you saw this movie and you saw what happened. There
Speaker 2: is like anything of that that is familiar to you,
Speaker 2: and you tell your story. You need to create a context. Yes,
Speaker 2: for many people, digging deep into the past is traumatizing, aversive, scary, uninteresting,
Speaker 2: you know, or they don't have the vocabulary for it.
Speaker 2: It's the other thing. So that's why people have used
Speaker 2: the arts, books, movies, plays, songs, poetry. They speak our
Speaker 2: human experience with and we only have to say that
Speaker 2: that's my thing. So sometimes I say to people, you know,
Speaker 2: how about you find some songs that express the stuff
Speaker 2: that you don't know how to talk about. And that's
Speaker 2: a much lighter lift than tell me about your past.
Speaker 2: You know, a character that represents the parent that you
Speaker 2: grew up with, and you go and find into a
Speaker 2: series a television series one of these characters they've all
Speaker 2: been written about, use other mediums, other vocabularies to open
Speaker 2: up stuff that people don't necessarily want to be in
Speaker 2: therapy with their partner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. That's such great advice, and I
Speaker 1: can agree more. I always say, everyone is listening to me.
Speaker 1: I always say to them like, please don't force my
Speaker 1: book onto your partner, Like, please don't like you may
Speaker 1: love my books. Yeah, please don't do that. And I
Speaker 1: always say to people like, it's about speaking the language
Speaker 1: that your partner connects to. And that's what you're saying.
Speaker 1: The language could be music, the language could be art,
Speaker 1: the language can make movies. And I always talk about
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I love having my podcast
Speaker 1: is because I get to speak to so many different
Speaker 1: people from so many different from backgrounds, so many different
Speaker 1: walks of life, talking about similar things. You read a
Speaker 1: book a day, yeah, exactly. And what I find is
Speaker 1: someone may relate to athletes more so. If an athlete
Speaker 1: is opening up about their mental health and their vulnerability
Speaker 1: or a challenge they have with the parent, your partner
Speaker 1: may respond to that more than they would a coach,
Speaker 1: a therapist, a psychologist or one of your partners may
Speaker 1: respond to academics and scientists more than they would agree
Speaker 1: to a guide, and it doesn't matter how they open up.
Speaker 1: And so I love that you said that. I love
Speaker 1: that you said sometimes we're just trying the same strategy
Speaker 1: for too long, and you know, like you said, on
Speaker 1: the nose, we kind of approach it in a very
Speaker 1: barrier yeah, literary.
Speaker 2: Way, like tell me about you know you're doing this,
Speaker 2: what happened to you before? You know, like a cause
Speaker 2: and effect, you know, play with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're trying to be the therapist and you can't.
Speaker 2: I think plays a good thing. I think movement is
Speaker 2: important too. Many people talk much more easily when they're walking,
Speaker 2: when they're hiking, when they're you know, on a ski lift.
Speaker 2: Don't just sit and try to do face to face.
Speaker 2: There's a reason that fishing is so good. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: you do parallel play. Everybody is looking forward, nobody has
Speaker 2: to lock eyes, and it allows me to think out
Speaker 2: loud and to answer a question here and there. The
Speaker 2: other thing is sometimes the question comes later. Often there's
Speaker 2: one person that's much more articulate about some of these
Speaker 2: things than another. So find other mediums of the vocabularies
Speaker 2: and other settings start with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite dates that
Speaker 1: me and my wife went on very early on was
Speaker 1: this activity in England called go ape, And what it
Speaker 1: is is it's it's like a ropes course that's high
Speaker 1: up in the air, so it's like eighty feet or
Speaker 1: whatever up above in the air, and you've got all
Speaker 1: these different activities and things, so you're like swinging, You're
Speaker 1: like trying to walk on these steps. It's challenging, but
Speaker 1: it's fun. And I remember having so much fun because
Speaker 1: there were activities that she found easy and I found hard,
Speaker 1: and activities that I found easy and she found hard,
Speaker 1: and we could help each other, we could talk while
Speaker 1: we were doing it. There was a sense of support.
Speaker 1: And I think what you're saying is so true that
Speaker 1: I find that doing activities where we're both novices are
Speaker 1: really fun because when we're both getting a chance to
Speaker 1: see a new, fresh, unseen side of each other, we
Speaker 1: really get to play and really get to understand if
Speaker 1: I'm in a position of strength, if I know a
Speaker 1: sport really well and she's never done it, then I'm
Speaker 1: not really learning anything new. I'm kind of just being
Speaker 1: there and trying to be the teacher and same vice versa.
Speaker 1: But if we both have no clue about something like
Speaker 1: me and my wife took a surfing lesson for the
Speaker 1: first time in our life, like a couple of years
Speaker 1: ago when we went to Hawaii. We both never served
Speaker 1: in our life. You know, we're both from London and
Speaker 1: that wasn't accessible there and we went on a first
Speaker 1: of a lesson and it was just hilarious. It was fun,
Speaker 1: it was silly. We were both learning about how much
Speaker 1: tolerance we both had and there was humor coming in
Speaker 1: and what skill set we had. And you're so right
Speaker 1: that adding movement to being together, especially I find in
Speaker 1: ways where you're not familiar, provides a real opportunity to
Speaker 1: see someone vulnerably.
Speaker 2: So you added more than just movement. You added risk
Speaker 2: and you added playfulness. There's a beautiful book by Eli
Speaker 2: Finkl called The All or Nothing Marriage, and he talks
Speaker 2: about really what creates a sense of a liveness in relationships,
Speaker 2: and one of the things he highlights is the importance
Speaker 2: of doing new things, not just doing things that you
Speaker 2: both enjoyed, that you're comfortable with. That's good, but that
Speaker 2: breeds friendship, whereas when you do new things that also
Speaker 2: involve unknown mystery, risk, curiosity, that's where you actually bring
Speaker 2: in excitement and in my language, also desire.
Speaker 1: Hmm. I love that. Yeah, that's beautiful. That makes complete sense,
Speaker 1: and I love those words. Those words we don't often
Speaker 1: use around relationships, risk mystery like it. Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: I know, but you just don't hear them, not enough.
Speaker 1: You don't hear them enough at all. Around relationships. You
Speaker 1: always feel mystery with something you had on date one,
Speaker 1: or when you saw that person from across the room,
Speaker 1: right like, that's when the mystery was and there isn't
Speaker 1: any But I can't agree with you more that.
Speaker 2: But that's because people prefer sometimes to create an illusion
Speaker 2: of familiarity, as if I know you, like you're the
Speaker 2: inside of my pocket. Yeah yeah, yeah, until you do
Speaker 2: something I absolutely did not expect you to do, and
Speaker 2: then suddenly I realized, and I say, I thought I
Speaker 2: knew you. The real beauty is to know that whoever
Speaker 2: is next to you, who you think is already so
Speaker 2: familiar and so known, is actually still somewhat mysterious, somewhat elusive.
Speaker 2: And that's where you maintain your curiosity next to the
Speaker 2: person that is with you. You know, faced with the unknown,
Speaker 2: you can either react with fear and try to flatten
Speaker 2: it and just ignore all of that and just hold
Speaker 2: on to what's familiar, or you can nurture it, and
Speaker 2: then you are actually engaging with the mystery and the
Speaker 2: curiosity that is right in front of you and that
Speaker 2: you know from your spiritual work that is very much
Speaker 2: taken from that notion. How you then, because that allows
Speaker 2: you to sit like this when you're talking with your partner,
Speaker 2: because you're still attentive and curious versus like this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Let's say someone decides to break up
Speaker 1: or maybe they're broken up with and we can talk
Speaker 1: about both sides of that. If we talk about the
Speaker 1: side of someone's decided to break up with someone for
Speaker 1: their own reasons, and of course, there could be a
Speaker 1: million reasons for breaking up with someone, so it's hard
Speaker 1: to be specific there. But if someone's broken up with
Speaker 1: someone but they are having those feelings, as you said,
Speaker 1: the consequences will be you'll still have that grief of
Speaker 1: what could have been. You have the consequences of maybe
Speaker 1: it could have worked, maybe we should have tried there's
Speaker 1: still a feeling of I wish they were still around.
Speaker 1: I used to talk to them every day at seven
Speaker 1: pm at night. I used to on a Friday night.
Speaker 1: We'd always go to this favorite restaurant, whatever it may
Speaker 1: have been. We have these memories. What do people do
Speaker 1: with that feeling? What do you do with that feeling
Speaker 1: of craving?
Speaker 2: You know, you do a lot of different things, but
Speaker 2: it's so interesting. I literally edited a new episode for
Speaker 2: the podcast for Where Should We Begin of a guy
Speaker 2: who leaves his wife who he had been very close
Speaker 2: to for quite a few years as a young child,
Speaker 2: moves in with another woman, is on the verge a
Speaker 2: few years later of marrying that other woman and can't
Speaker 2: do it, and has felt guilt and remorse and regret
Speaker 2: and longing for all those years, and starts to meet
Speaker 2: the mother of his child again, not just as a mother,
Speaker 2: but now they're going on a first date again. And
Speaker 2: it's like I left you and then I came back
Speaker 2: to you. It's an incredible story to see one person
Speaker 2: because that is a question that doesn't have one answer.
Speaker 2: But in this case, he couldn't leave her fast enough,
Speaker 2: but he could never leave her fully. And I can't
Speaker 2: tell you today if he's back with her or what.
Speaker 2: But I have a sense that something when he was
Speaker 2: about to marry this other woman held him back that
Speaker 2: he couldn't necessarily put into words, and that made him
Speaker 2: feel like he had to examine himself, which is what
Speaker 2: this whole conversation on where should we begin is about.
Speaker 2: And I've never had that particular version of it, but
Speaker 2: it is the one that most responds to your question.
Speaker 2: But you're gonna have to go listen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely no, And I recommend everyone going and
Speaker 1: listen to that if that's a question you've been asking yourself.
Speaker 1: I think that heartache that people feel often feels endless.
Speaker 1: As you said, it can just go on and on
Speaker 1: and on forever. People feel like we've always had. You know,
Speaker 1: time will heal all wounds.
Speaker 2: But who instigated the breakup? Is the really changes a lot?
Speaker 2: Or if it was mutual?
Speaker 1: Is it ever mutual?
Speaker 2: Yes? I think that it is often mutual where two
Speaker 2: people say we evolved into something else or just didn't
Speaker 2: work or you know, both people may have felt it,
Speaker 2: but one person was able to say, let's do it.
Speaker 2: That makes sense, you know, and the person who is
Speaker 2: more afraid of abandonment and rejection and all of that
Speaker 2: is often more the person who may not say it,
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean they didn't feel it. Many people
Speaker 2: tell you I didn't have the guts to do it,
Speaker 2: but it's the best thing that happened to me. My
Speaker 2: partner pushed it. I didn't want it then, So between
Speaker 2: what happens in the moment and how people experience the consequence,
Speaker 2: it's not one and the same. The person who may
Speaker 2: have pushed it may be the one who has the
Speaker 2: most regret. The person who was more hesitant it may
Speaker 2: be the one who actually is most liberated. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a much more intricate puzzle.
Speaker 1: And just of course, of course, what are some of
Speaker 1: the phases that you see people go through that can
Speaker 1: give people hope that there is another side to this,
Speaker 1: Because I think when you're in it, the emotion is
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be loved again, I'll never find
Speaker 1: someone as good as them again, I can't trust anyone again, right, Like,
Speaker 1: these are the thoughts that people are repeating in their minds.
Speaker 1: What is someoney to understand during that time?
Speaker 2: To know it? Just made me think of another episode
Speaker 2: of this, But this the daughter who describes how one
Speaker 2: day a truck came took all of her father's stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean, then it comes back home. That's a story
Speaker 2: that we hear quite often. And then all the situations
Speaker 2: of betrayal, of infidelity, of falling in love with somebody else,
Speaker 2: or discovering that you partner wants a fundamentally different relationship
Speaker 2: than you. And I think that the situations where you
Speaker 2: are like completely side lined and you realize, wow, the
Speaker 2: first experience you have is that your whole sense of
Speaker 2: reality is shattered. I thought I knew my life and
Speaker 2: this has nothing to do with where I thought I
Speaker 2: was at. How can this be happening to me? You're
Speaker 2: in a state of confusion, in a state of disbelief,
Speaker 2: and in a state of shock, and in a state
Speaker 2: where you feel like you've been just ejected from your life.
Speaker 2: You had value and you have none. That's all part
Speaker 2: of betrayal. It's not just the lying. It's the fact
Speaker 2: that somebody could toss you away like that and that
Speaker 2: you think don't matter, and that's what makes you much
Speaker 2: more afraid. Will I ever find someone who can hold me,
Speaker 2: carry care and carry me? You know? And can I
Speaker 2: trust that ever again because I trusted it. Here the
Speaker 2: question is as much about how do I trust again,
Speaker 2: but not just how do I trust somebody else? How
Speaker 2: do I trust my own perception? That's the piece that
Speaker 2: when you lose the belief in your ability to know
Speaker 2: that what you believe is what is, then you are
Speaker 2: on such shaky grounds. So it demands a real scaffolding
Speaker 2: and a rebuilding. No, you haven't lost your entire sense
Speaker 2: of perception because you have good friends, family, colleagues, mentors.
Speaker 2: There's not just that person, and you need to get
Speaker 2: your sense of value from noticing the other relationships that
Speaker 2: you have. So you need to bring those people into
Speaker 2: your life. Do not isolate at that moment. You need
Speaker 2: the people who see you differently from the one who
Speaker 2: just left you, and those who seek you out, those
Speaker 2: who value your presence, those who think you great. You know,
Speaker 2: and then slowly you often will find that you connect
Speaker 2: better with other people who have experienced a sense of
Speaker 2: betrayal like that. But betrayal is not only in fidelity.
Speaker 2: It can also be in a partnership. It can be
Speaker 2: being co founders of something in There are other relationships
Speaker 2: that go through this complete fracture Slowly you begin to say,
Speaker 2: it's not one person's harming me or hurting me that
Speaker 2: is a decree on who I am and my self worth.
Speaker 2: That person hurt me deeply. I have been hurt and
Speaker 2: I learned from this, and I protect myself a little bit.
Speaker 2: But I don't have to protect myself in such a
Speaker 2: way that I don't live, because the biggest victory on
Speaker 2: this kind of hurt is the ability to love again,
Speaker 2: to trust again. You did not take that from me.
Speaker 2: That is probably your biggest vengeance is to be happy.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I mean that resonates very very strongly. And
Speaker 1: first of all, can people rebuild trust after experiencing infidelity?
Speaker 1: And what does that process look like for someone and
Speaker 1: how different it is it to what they expected to be.
Speaker 2: The beauty of your questions is that it filled an
Speaker 2: entire book of mine because it's actually a big, big topic.
Speaker 2: But if I was to try to summarize it, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: of course people can rebuild trust. I mean that is
Speaker 2: not everybody and not in every situation, but the process
Speaker 2: itself very much is real. And I have met you know,
Speaker 2: I began State of Affair by going to talk to
Speaker 2: couples that I had seen five or ten years earlier
Speaker 2: to know whatever happened to these people, because I see
Speaker 2: them in a moment of crisis, and often I don't
Speaker 2: know afterwards. You know, they decided to stay together, they
Speaker 2: worked it through, and off they went. So I wanted
Speaker 2: to know what does that relationship actually look like years later?
Speaker 2: Who are they? What happened to their bond? You rebuild
Speaker 2: trust through a few major stages. The first one is
Speaker 2: that whoever hurts you, especially if you choose to stay together,
Speaker 2: has the ability to express guilt and remorse for hurting you.
Speaker 2: Even if they don't feel guilty for the affair itself,
Speaker 2: Even if they have hosts of good explanations, good reasons
Speaker 2: that make it understandable, not justifiable, not condonable, but understandable,
Speaker 2: they still can experience the guilt and the remorse for
Speaker 2: hurting you. That acknowledgment is fundamental. It's fundamental in an
Speaker 2: intimate relationship, in a friendship, or between nations for that matter.
Speaker 2: Then it's the ability to basically become what I call
Speaker 2: the vigilan of the relationship. It means it's your job
Speaker 2: now to say how much you value the relationship and
Speaker 2: to protect the relationship. So in the situation of an affair,
Speaker 2: for example, it means that instead of you're asking me
Speaker 2: questions about what I did and me hoping that you
Speaker 2: won't ask me because we've already gone through this ten times,
Speaker 2: I ask you, is there something you want to ask me?
Speaker 2: Because if I bring it up, rather than hoping you
Speaker 2: won't bring it up, then I'm saying to you, I'm
Speaker 2: owning my thing. I take responsibility. I care about the relationship.
Speaker 2: And most of the time, if we have a good day,
Speaker 2: you may say to me, I don't want to talk
Speaker 2: about it. I'm having a good day because I am
Speaker 2: reminding us and I'm not letting it be forgotten, and
Speaker 2: I'm taking charge. That's the vigilante. I'm the protector of
Speaker 2: the relationship. And then number three is to explain, to
Speaker 2: talk between the people, why did you do this? What
Speaker 2: did it mean to you? And then what did it
Speaker 2: do to me? The affair always includes both sides. If
Speaker 2: you just talk about what it meant for you, you're
Speaker 2: missing a point. If we're just talking about what it
Speaker 2: did to me, were missing a point. So the ability
Speaker 2: to not just look at the facts what did you do,
Speaker 2: but the meaning of it. Affairs have meaning their stories.
Speaker 2: They tell us something about the person, about the relationship,
Speaker 2: not always bad things for that matter. So what did
Speaker 2: it mean to you? And those three stages in the
Speaker 2: crisis phase remorse, guilt, acknowledgment. In the inside phase, you
Speaker 2: are the vigilante, and together we explore meaning making of
Speaker 2: this crisis for us? What are we going to do
Speaker 2: with this? And then phase three is if we do
Speaker 2: stay together, what's our vision for who we want to be? No,
Speaker 2: we will probably not go back to what we were,
Speaker 2: because what we were may have been part of why
Speaker 2: we got to where we are. Who do we want
Speaker 2: to be? What does it open up an affair topples
Speaker 2: the scorecard in a relationship? So I may have accepted
Speaker 2: all kinds of things because this was the way I
Speaker 2: conceived of our relationship. And I was willing to not work,
Speaker 2: and I was willing to make more money. I was
Speaker 2: willing to work all the time. I was willing to
Speaker 2: do all the child care. I was willing to do
Speaker 2: none of it. I was willing to take care of
Speaker 2: your ailing mother, of your addicted brother, whatever. I accepted
Speaker 2: a lot of things. But now this basically gives me
Speaker 2: the opportunity to also say I also have discontent. It's
Speaker 2: not just your affair that expresses the discontent. And so
Speaker 2: here's the fundamental line. Most of us today in the
Speaker 2: West are going to have two or three relationships in
Speaker 2: our adult life or marriages. Some of us are going
Speaker 2: to do it with the same person. So sometimes the
Speaker 2: affair is the end of the first marriage or the
Speaker 2: first relationship, but it can be the beginning of the
Speaker 2: next one with each other. And that's the rebuilding of
Speaker 2: the trust.
Speaker 1: Well said, yeah no, and it's I'm sure that's going
Speaker 1: to give people a lot of hope. But also what
Speaker 1: I love about your work and your books is that
Speaker 1: there's also a process there. There's a structure there, there's
Speaker 1: a method there for people to go, oh, okay, that's
Speaker 1: where we're at. That's what I'm struggling with. I think
Speaker 1: one of the biggest thoughts that repeats in people's minds
Speaker 1: when they're broken up with or when they've experienced infidelity
Speaker 1: that I hear from people is jay, I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm not worthy anymore. I feel like I'm not lovable again,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm not desirable.
Speaker 2: While they are staying with the person or while they've
Speaker 2: broken up both.
Speaker 1: I've heard people say I don't feel desirable because they
Speaker 1: desire someone else, but I still want to be with
Speaker 1: that person, And I don't feel worthy even with that
Speaker 1: person now because I'm reminded constantly, as you said, of
Speaker 1: their infidelity, and these thoughts perpetuate. But what I'm hearing
Speaker 1: you say, and I'd love for you to guide us,
Speaker 1: is what I'm hearing you say is well, that's why
Speaker 1: you need to do the meaning making, because you really
Speaker 1: need to understand their story and meaning and yours. Right now,
Speaker 1: you're just focus on yours, and that's always going to
Speaker 1: be this negative, repetitive pattern.
Speaker 2: You remind me of a couple I saw, and this
Speaker 2: man had done something that was really egregious in some
Speaker 2: way because he had taken everything that was special to
Speaker 2: the relationship and shared it with the other person. But everything, wow,
Speaker 2: their favorite places, restaurants, clothing, I mean, he had left
Speaker 2: nothing sacred. That's devaluing, right, And whenever they would drive,
Speaker 2: there was a way when they would arrive to a
Speaker 2: place and she would look at him and it was
Speaker 2: like there too, And so he would dread it because
Speaker 2: he knew he was guilty as charged, and then I
Speaker 2: began to say to him, I want you. Every time
Speaker 2: you drive, when there is a place, you say yes,
Speaker 2: they're too, without waiting for the question, because you know
Speaker 2: that you have to stand up. But when there is
Speaker 2: that you have to stand accountable. But when there is
Speaker 2: a place not, you say no they're not before the
Speaker 2: question comes up. That's part of the vigilante, so that
Speaker 2: you protect the relationship and you bring back the value.
Speaker 2: You say, you know, now go create new places too
Speaker 2: that are new for the two of you, and that
Speaker 2: you need new cells. You can't just go back and
Speaker 2: try to re enter the spaces that you were in.
Speaker 2: The loss of value gets addressed by having someone who
Speaker 2: is slowly reclaiming the value. The feeling is true, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that because they had desire for someone else,
Speaker 2: they had none for you. Actually, sometimes they had desire
Speaker 2: for someone else because you had none for them.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The person who says that to you comes with one
Speaker 2: particular story, but there's so many stories.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you have a person who was completely uninterested for
Speaker 2: a decade and then they are upset that their partner
Speaker 2: was interested with somebody else. It's not just you know,
Speaker 2: I was there available for you, and you dumped me
Speaker 2: for someone that you looked at with a bigger, you know,
Speaker 2: founder eyes. So what people experience after the betrayal doesn't
Speaker 2: always tell the story of what happened before. That's why
Speaker 2: the meaning making is so really important. You know, sometimes
Speaker 2: somebody is going to say to the other, you devalued
Speaker 2: me for ten years. You barely paid any attention to me.
Speaker 2: You were so enruptured in your work, you were so
Speaker 2: busy with your phone, you were so you know. I
Speaker 2: was abandoned long before, you know, And that also needs
Speaker 2: to be put into the story. The story doesn't start
Speaker 2: the moment that you discover something, because there are a
Speaker 2: lot of moving pieces underneath, and people addressing this with care,
Speaker 2: carefulness and possibility is the process. It's the hope doesn't
Speaker 2: come from nowhere. It comes because two people say this
Speaker 2: is important. We build something. We've been together five, ten,
Speaker 2: fifteen years, twenty five years. We're not letting this just
Speaker 2: go now. We need to reclaim the value of this
Speaker 2: for both of us.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, this idea that we're going to have two to
Speaker 1: three relationships in our adult life, and they could either
Speaker 1: be with the same person or of course with two
Speaker 1: to three different people. And I think this idea of
Speaker 1: choice and selection has obviously rapidly changed because of technology
Speaker 1: and apps and the amount of people you can bump into.
Speaker 1: You know, I looked at studies saying that, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago, most people ended up with someone
Speaker 1: within a five mile radius of where they grew up.
Speaker 1: We know that that's not the case anymore. People are
Speaker 1: moving countries for people moving states, people are living in
Speaker 1: different parts of the world. We both live in different
Speaker 1: parts of the world than where we grew up. And
Speaker 1: so when I look at that, one of the biggest
Speaker 1: challenges I find, or that I hear from people is
Speaker 1: because there's so much selection, there's a sense of like,
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling any spark, I'm not feeling any chemistry,
Speaker 1: I don't feel a connection with this person. I hear
Speaker 1: that a lot, and well, let's address that. And then
Speaker 1: the other thing I hear is this idea of like,
Speaker 1: you know, this guy didn't have as much as the
Speaker 1: other guy, or you know, and you start comparing it
Speaker 1: because you can because you're just exposed to so many
Speaker 1: more people now, and you're almost comparing resumes of people
Speaker 1: that you've heard about spoken to, seen on a dating app,
Speaker 1: introduced through your friends. So this idea of choice, in
Speaker 1: the paradox of choices, it's always been called in studies
Speaker 1: from products to people. Now, you know, we can get
Speaker 1: stuck at a grocery store wondering which product to buy,
Speaker 1: but in dating it feels like you can keep going
Speaker 1: because you can just keep swiping. Let's talk about both
Speaker 1: of those, the idea of how do you choose, how
Speaker 1: do you select? And when you're choosing and selecting, how
Speaker 1: do you not feel that sense of there could be more?
Speaker 2: I said choice comes with loss. I'm actually very excited
Speaker 2: about this question because I'm very interested in this at
Speaker 2: this moment right, I'm interested in the intersection of technology
Speaker 2: and relationships and mental health. And I've just done a
Speaker 2: bunch of episodes with people in the dating scene because
Speaker 2: of exactly this. So we have a frenzy of romantic
Speaker 2: consumerism in which, in search of the perfect, people are
Speaker 2: no longer happy with the good. We have people looking
Speaker 2: for a soulmate on an app. That's an interesting combination
Speaker 2: between spirituality and capitalism, and how do we even think
Speaker 2: that a partner is a soulmate? Soulmate used to be God,
Speaker 2: you know, and now we want transcendence and missy and
Speaker 2: wholeness and all of it an ecstasy almost with the person,
Speaker 2: you know, the stuff that people looked for in the
Speaker 2: realm of the divine they now want with their person.
Speaker 2: And at the same time they're doing it with a checklist,
Speaker 2: so that many dating experiences are like job interviews. So
Speaker 2: all of that combined, right, I do think we have
Speaker 2: more choice, but we also have a lot more uncertainty
Speaker 2: and a lot more self doubt, and we are a
Speaker 2: lot less capable of handling uncertainty because we live with
Speaker 2: a host of predictive technologies that are all meant to
Speaker 2: take away uncertainties, obstacle friction, you know, rough edges. So
Speaker 2: we don't rub anymore with stuff that helps us deal
Speaker 2: with uncertainty unknown and engage with happenstance.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Happenstance means you stand in line and you start talking
Speaker 2: to the person that is behind you in line, and
Speaker 2: after that you go and have a drink with that person,
Speaker 2: and after that you and yourself exchanging numbers and a
Speaker 2: story starts spontaneously, unprompted. So I think that the commentification
Speaker 2: that people feel is real. It's not just because of
Speaker 2: your childhood. It's part of society at this point. There
Speaker 2: is a way in which we talk about ourselves as products,
Speaker 2: and there is a way in which we talk about
Speaker 2: ourselves online with followers as if we are religious leaders,
Speaker 2: you and me for that matter. So the first thing,
Speaker 2: don't go in thinking that you have to find somebody
Speaker 2: at the first meeting. This is not the way it works.
Speaker 2: And that you go down your list and you know,
Speaker 2: and then if the first thing that goes wrong, you
Speaker 2: go ick, and you just go on to the next.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm doing now when I address this
Speaker 2: very question is I show a very famous clip that's
Speaker 2: classic in psychology called the still face experiment. Have you
Speaker 2: ever seen it? Minute clip on YouTube. In the still
Speaker 2: face experiment, the mother is playing with the little one,
Speaker 2: and the little one is cooing and showing her things,
Speaker 2: and you know, and then at some point the mother
Speaker 2: goes still face, and the kid continues to point and
Speaker 2: continues to call her attention, and within thirty seconds or
Speaker 2: less of the mother not responding, the kid goes into
Speaker 2: a panic, A frenzy loses its body. Composer starts shrieking
Speaker 2: and basically you understand that we are relational people from
Speaker 2: and what this clip shows me is that this is
Speaker 2: what goes on in ghosting, in bread crumbing, in checklisting.
Speaker 2: This is what is the experience of many people at
Speaker 2: this moment. You go, you have a hedonic treadmill. You
Speaker 2: meet someone, you think these possibilities, and then they disappear
Speaker 2: on you and you're left like this, and then you
Speaker 2: unravel and you do this sometimes twenty times a day
Speaker 2: with the same person. This is kind of the experience.
Speaker 1: Of modern days.
Speaker 2: I haven't seen many people say I love it. You know,
Speaker 2: maybe sixty five percent of meeting people meet on an app,
Speaker 2: but I don't see people saying I love it. Actually,
Speaker 2: it's the number one complaint of people dating at this moment.
Speaker 2: So try to bring back something that is more humane.
Speaker 2: You meet somebody or a friend, introduce you to someone.
Speaker 2: Don't go and meet with them alone in a bar,
Speaker 2: to have a face to face conversation, To go down
Speaker 2: and interview. Do an activity it's exactly what you were
Speaker 2: talking about. Do something you enjoy doing. Bring that person
Speaker 2: to a thing that you're doing with friends. You want
Speaker 2: to get to know somebody, put them in a social situation.
Speaker 2: See how they interact with people, how they act, how
Speaker 2: they respond, how they engage with people. If you think
Speaker 2: that you're going to have epiphanies with clarity like an app,
Speaker 2: forget it. You will be exhausted and you won't meet anybody.
Speaker 1: Really well said, and I could agree with you more.
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to push people away. I'm like, get
Speaker 1: out of your inbox and your DM and your messages
Speaker 1: and get out there. There's no way talking to someone
Speaker 1: over a couple of messages is going to help you
Speaker 1: figure anything out. But you've probably spoken to so many
Speaker 1: people who've had chemistry, lost chemistry, never had it. I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people today that I hear
Speaker 1: from their meeting people, but they're like, there's no spot,
Speaker 1: there's no chemistry, I'm not feeling anything. What should we
Speaker 1: want to feel, if there is anything we should want
Speaker 1: to feel at all with someone? And what is the
Speaker 1: difference between chemistry compatibility?
Speaker 2: And First of all, I think we need to differentiate.
Speaker 2: Are you looking for chemistry for a love story or
Speaker 2: are you looking for chemistry for a life story. Lots
Speaker 2: of people you can have chemistry with, have a fantastic
Speaker 2: night with, for that matter or more, but that's not
Speaker 2: the person you necessarily want to make a life with.
Speaker 2: The project will determine the nature of the chemistry.
Speaker 1: That's number one.
Speaker 2: So number two is curiosity, a desire for more, want
Speaker 2: to you know, it's like you read a book, a
Speaker 2: person is a book, right, or you can use other metaphors.
Speaker 2: Do you drag yourself through the next page? You know,
Speaker 2: I should you know, let me see where it goes,
Speaker 2: or like you can't wait? You know it's a page turner,
Speaker 2: if you know, if the experience of the page turner
Speaker 2: with the person, you want more. You want to have
Speaker 2: the next conversation. You want to ask them that kind
Speaker 2: of question. You want to go do something else with them.
Speaker 2: You're on a good track. You know, this notion of
Speaker 2: this instant combustion of emotion that fills you up. You
Speaker 2: want a religious experience. That is not always the case.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people fall like that, you know, as we say,
Speaker 2: for but the majority of the time, things grow, you know,
Speaker 2: they grow through the interaction. You get a good text,
Speaker 2: you like what you just read. You find yourself wanting
Speaker 2: to answer a sentence and you've just answered two pages.
Speaker 2: You know you wanted to go and meet them for
Speaker 2: half an hour, and three hours later you're still sitting
Speaker 2: on the floor in the hallway having an entralling conversation.
Speaker 2: That's the stuff that reads the feelings. If you sit
Speaker 2: there like this and think that's some you know, diosx
Speaker 2: Machini is going to fall from the heavens, you're off.
Speaker 2: You know, it's this false certainty that is not the
Speaker 2: majority of people. And there's many ways in Some people
Speaker 2: start hot and then they become lukewarm, and some people
Speaker 2: start lookwarm and the heat grows over time. There isn't
Speaker 2: one narrative, this notion that Hollywood has sold us that
Speaker 2: it's like, oh and I can't wait and I just
Speaker 2: have this. I fall for you on the spot. That's
Speaker 2: one plot. There are many plots. And if you constrain
Speaker 2: yourself in thinking this is how I should be feeling
Speaker 2: and I'm not feeling it, then you you are limiting
Speaker 2: your options.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing that has really come up a lot
Speaker 1: with people have spoken to recently is this idea of
Speaker 1: they find someone who makes them feel safe, who they
Speaker 1: feel cared for by, and the person seems to be
Speaker 1: they consider them to be good hearted. That person makes.
Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the butt.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, you already know, you already know this person
Speaker 1: in their words makes sense, but they feel like they're
Speaker 1: settling because there must be someone else who has all
Speaker 1: of that plus the other three things that they want.
Speaker 2: You are a perfect candidate for romantic consumerism. If you
Speaker 2: think this way you've been had, you've been literally you've
Speaker 2: become a good person that I can, we can. You know,
Speaker 2: your mind is set for somebody telling you this is
Speaker 2: the product you need, the perfect fit, and then you
Speaker 2: are going to be the perfect patient who comes in
Speaker 2: thinking I thought my person was like this and this
Speaker 2: and this, and they're not the deal that I bargained for.
Speaker 2: It's not what was written on paper. You can lead
Speaker 2: the language. It's like business. You know, capitalism enters romantic life.
Speaker 2: It's really crippling to people. You know, the more you
Speaker 2: have this notion of perfection, the higher you can fall.
Speaker 2: You know, are you perfect? Are you that great? Do
Speaker 2: you think that everybody falls?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: What is this notion? So then there is this idea
Speaker 2: that there is the sense and settling with the passion
Speaker 2: you know, and you should have that passion. Passion is
Speaker 2: a wonderful feeling to have. It's maybe not the best
Speaker 2: thing to decide if you're want to have a life
Speaker 2: with somebody on it's not the most important ingredient for that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean you don't want excitement, intensity, you know, draw,
Speaker 2: But this idea that there is reason and passion, that's
Speaker 2: a very old divide. That's the that's the divide of
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, the rationalists and the romantics.
Speaker 1: And why do you say that? Why do you think that?
Speaker 1: And I get that you're giving a balanced approach that
Speaker 1: to enlighten and what you've seen you compare the love
Speaker 1: story in the life story? Yes, why do you think?
Speaker 1: It almost feels like what we've been sold is for
Speaker 1: the love story. But the life story requires a different set.
Speaker 2: Of skills, yes, skills and values and compatibilities. Because there
Speaker 2: are many more people that you can love than people
Speaker 2: you can make a life with. I can have many
Speaker 2: love stories with people that I meet on a trip
Speaker 2: that I you know, with whom I have a beautiful
Speaker 2: short story with. But would that be the person with
Speaker 2: whom I can do we share anything else in terms
Speaker 2: of how we see life, with everything else that life brings,
Speaker 2: that's a different thing that doesn't mean you don't want
Speaker 2: love in the life story. But many more love stories
Speaker 2: can exist without life story. Not that many life stories
Speaker 2: will exist without a love story. You know. You can
Speaker 2: call it an adventure, you can call it, you know,
Speaker 2: and it is what people used to do when they
Speaker 2: did before. They're looking for someone with whom they want
Speaker 2: to have a more committed relationship. It's very important that
Speaker 2: we see that a lot of the things that we're
Speaker 2: looking for are the things that make for a real
Speaker 2: love story, the things we want to feel, The things
Speaker 2: that are on the checklist are the things that we've
Speaker 2: kind of created an impossible situation. It's really so you
Speaker 2: don't settle. If you see that language says what I
Speaker 2: am fantastic, you know, or I am not fantastic, but
Speaker 2: I'm going to find someone fantastic who's going to make
Speaker 2: me rise. And it is a kind of use of
Speaker 2: people that really is creating such a psychological paucity. It's
Speaker 2: really eroding people's sense of self esteem and sense of
Speaker 2: self worth. It's not good. Where are you at in
Speaker 2: new life at twenty three? You're going to think differently
Speaker 2: from thirty three. You know, at thirty three, it's likely
Speaker 2: that you're going to think of a few people that
Speaker 2: you said no to are twenty three that were perfectly
Speaker 2: fine and you kind of didn't because you kept thinking,
Speaker 2: I can do better, and this I can do better
Speaker 2: is eating people up because it creates constant restlessness in relationships,
Speaker 2: in life, in pursuit and then they need to go
Speaker 2: and meditate to get calmer, to be less restless. But
Speaker 2: the restlessness is this constant pursuit of more, better, younger,
Speaker 2: and therefore living with the feeling not enough. I don't
Speaker 2: have enough, I'm not enough, and that's the crisis that
Speaker 2: then follows around self worth. Because you constantly want more,
Speaker 2: you end up constantly feeling not enough.
Speaker 1: And someone else will make me feel more than enough.
Speaker 2: Yes, the evaluation. The meaning of finding the love partner
Speaker 2: today is that it will end my sense of constant
Speaker 2: self evaluation. I'm evaluating myself. I'm presenting myself, I'm selling myself.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to compete on the market. It's like language,
Speaker 2: you know, the romantic language is about the market, you know,
Speaker 2: the meat. And then when I find you, my beloved,
Speaker 2: I will finally stop the process of evaluation. This is
Speaker 2: a thing from if I lose a great sociologist that
Speaker 2: studies love relationships.
Speaker 1: That's such a beautiful language as well, that you want
Speaker 1: to end your process of evaluation when actually a life
Speaker 1: story is an evolution of self evaluation. It's only going
Speaker 1: to come with more. Do you see there being inherent
Speaker 1: value in long term committed relationships or is that also
Speaker 1: a construct of society?
Speaker 2: I see. Look, I work very cross culturally, right, so
Speaker 2: I don't think the answer is the same if I
Speaker 2: am in Belgium, in India, in Turkey. But I think
Speaker 2: there is a lot of value in a long term relationship.
Speaker 2: But the long term relationship has doubled in lifespan. So
Speaker 2: one hundred years ago we lived half of now, so
Speaker 2: the long term keeps on getting longer. But there is
Speaker 2: also tremendous value in having had the possibility of finally
Speaker 2: being able to end this and to start a new,
Speaker 2: or to never have had it and to start a
Speaker 2: new People who marry for the first time in their sixties,
Speaker 2: or people who realized that they had a beautiful relationship
Speaker 2: for certain things and that now they needed something else.
Speaker 2: The marriage was an institution that you couldn't leave. You
Speaker 2: got in, and you got in for life, and if
Speaker 2: you didn't like it, you could hope for an early
Speaker 2: death of your partner, you know, hopeful, because that was
Speaker 2: the only way out. And especially for women, I mean,
Speaker 2: marriage has not meant the same for men and women.
Speaker 2: Marriage for same sex people is very recent. So the
Speaker 2: question has a lot of different pieces. I think that
Speaker 2: there is something very beautiful in a long novel, and
Speaker 2: I think that there are beautiful short stories. There isn't
Speaker 2: a one size fits all at this moment. And the
Speaker 2: interesting thing is we've been creative about a lot of things.
Speaker 2: We disrupt. We are creative about even family life. We
Speaker 2: have blended families, same sex families, single parent families, Accordian families.
Speaker 2: But when it comes to romantic couples, romanticism, the exclusiveness,
Speaker 2: the monogamous long term model has been the dominant model
Speaker 2: for two centuries and is quite strong. So I think
Speaker 2: we can be more creative and in rethinking relational arrangements
Speaker 2: and relationship arrangements that are more diverse and that bring
Speaker 2: in other people as in the community, because what is
Speaker 2: happening in the long term relationship of today is not
Speaker 2: only that it is much longer, but it is also
Speaker 2: much more isolated longer and lonier, one person to give
Speaker 2: us what normally an entire village should provide, and that
Speaker 2: is crippling. The relationships under so much weight and so
Speaker 2: many expectations. So those who do it well do it
Speaker 2: better than the relationships of the past, as I think,
Speaker 2: but the majority of them don't manage to climb the olympus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I you know, I often think about that
Speaker 1: because I think what we were talking about earlier, when
Speaker 1: I first met my wife, I'd definitely say that there
Speaker 1: was so much of the romanticism of the perfect relationship.
Speaker 1: And I often talk about in my book as well,
Speaker 1: about how I proposed to my wife, which was basically
Speaker 1: based off of Instagram and YouTube videos, how I invented
Speaker 1: a proposal that was so not personal or not she
Speaker 1: liked it. Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you what happened. So,
Speaker 1: and if anyone's heard this story before, I apologize, but
Speaker 1: I want to ask them. I don't know the context. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we've been together, I think at that point for like,
Speaker 1: maybe I proposed off like a couple of years and
Speaker 1: so we've been together. I decided I was going to propose.
Speaker 1: We were walking down bank of the River Thames in London.
Speaker 1: I had an a cappella group jumped out and sing
Speaker 1: Bruno Mars, will you marry me? Like marry you to her.
Speaker 1: They gave her a bouquet of flowers. They performed this
Speaker 1: amazing number. I got down on one knee I proposed.
Speaker 1: We both shed a tear. She said yes. We then
Speaker 1: had dinner on the side of the Thames where I
Speaker 1: had the kind of finagle a table from a restaurant.
Speaker 1: I had food that was brought in, but it was
Speaker 1: cold because everything had gone wrong on the timing, so
Speaker 1: we ate cold food, which was we didn't mind. My
Speaker 1: wife is amazing, so she didn't care. But I was
Speaker 1: looking at that going hmm. And then we walked around
Speaker 1: the corner and we ended up on a white horse
Speaker 1: drawn carriage that I'd booked that took us around London
Speaker 1: on this beautiful carriage and it was a beautiful trip.
Speaker 1: And then we got on the train to go back
Speaker 1: to her parents. And we got home to her parents.
Speaker 1: Her parents opened the door and they said, what happened
Speaker 1: to you? To her? She had hives all over her
Speaker 1: face because that was the day I discovered that she
Speaker 1: was allergic to horses and I didn't know that, and
Speaker 1: she didn't know that. And I've always looked back and
Speaker 1: reflected at that story because my wife said, yes, she's
Speaker 1: never complained about it, she was happy with it. But
Speaker 1: when I really look at it, and as I've got
Speaker 1: to know her more and more every year, and like
Speaker 1: you said, I feel like I get to know more
Speaker 1: of her new things and old things every year. We've
Speaker 1: been together for ten years now, and I still feel
Speaker 1: like every day I'm discovering something new about her. I
Speaker 1: realized that that was the most impersonal show of love ever.
Speaker 1: It wasn't the song wasn't specific to her, the horse
Speaker 1: drawn carriage wasn't specific to her. The food was the
Speaker 1: only thing my wife would care about because she's a
Speaker 1: big foodie and that's her world. And it was cold.
Speaker 1: And I look back at that event and go, I'm lucky.
Speaker 1: She said yes. But actually the hives were a reminder
Speaker 1: to me of how little I knew my wife at
Speaker 1: that time.
Speaker 2: Or how eager you were to impress, how.
Speaker 1: Ego exactly, how I was a complete ego. I was
Speaker 1: twenty maybe six, twenty seven years and what a show
Speaker 1: it was, as opposed.
Speaker 2: To do you come from traditional families.
Speaker 1: I would say we come from yeah, like I would
Speaker 1: say we come from more traditional families. Yes, yeah, definitely
Speaker 1: they're modern thinking, but generally traditional overall in the world.
Speaker 2: And where they arranged marriages or where they.
Speaker 1: My mom and dad were, and pretty much hers was
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, pretty much her parents were as well.
Speaker 2: So that's a major transition. So when you ask me
Speaker 2: about long term relationships, I think people who are in
Speaker 2: an arranged marriage system answer that question very differently, yes,
Speaker 2: than people who start with the romantic You know what
Speaker 2: the research says, right.
Speaker 1: What does I've seen? Bits? But please clarify. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it's Dan Arieli's research that people who start
Speaker 2: with romantic and falling in love and passion are much
Speaker 2: more likely to then experience dissatisfaction in the relationship than
Speaker 2: the majority of people who start in an arranged situation,
Speaker 2: which is much more rational. Actually, their satisfaction rises as
Speaker 2: they get to know each other and develop the fairness
Speaker 2: and the relationship. I think this is true if the
Speaker 2: relationship is good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's good for those for whom it.
Speaker 2: Was really not a good match, it.
Speaker 1: Must be horrific. Yeah, And I think the reason why
Speaker 1: I was sharing that story was because I think what
Speaker 1: I've realized and you were mentioning this earlier, is that
Speaker 1: I feel like I found the person who has helped
Speaker 1: me continue self evaluation in a way that I would
Speaker 1: have avoided with someone else, or that I would have
Speaker 1: tried to avoid if I would have had multiple love stories,
Speaker 1: whereas this life story that I have with my wife
Speaker 1: currently is just the most purifying and cleansing, detoxifying process internally,
Speaker 1: but in the most fun, loving and caring way. And
Speaker 1: I look at that and I think about that often
Speaker 1: where I think to myself, I would have had to
Speaker 1: learn these lessons with anyone, but maybe someone else may
Speaker 1: not be able to challenge me as much as my
Speaker 1: wife does with the lack of criticism and complain and
Speaker 1: judgment in a safe space with humor, which actually makes
Speaker 1: it accessible to me. And it's one of these really
Speaker 1: interesting reflections I wanted to share with you to hear
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that, because I don't think I would.
Speaker 1: There are so many skills today that I have only
Speaker 1: because I married this particular person. There are so many
Speaker 1: emotional parts of myself that I've been able to discover
Speaker 1: because of this person. There have been so many.
Speaker 2: You know, what you're telling me in some way is
Speaker 2: you didn't succeed in impressing her.
Speaker 1: I've never succeeded in impressing my wife.
Speaker 2: And that's her power, you know. I mean, not that
Speaker 2: you're not impressive to her, that she doesn't appreciate and admire,
Speaker 2: but you didn't succeed till this day, and therefore her
Speaker 2: opinion matters, and therefore she can keep you on your toe,
Speaker 2: and therefore she doesn't let you sit on your laurels
Speaker 2: and get away with stuff, and therefore she can see
Speaker 2: you in a more humble way when you come home
Speaker 2: from having done forty stage events after another where you get,
Speaker 2: you know, clapped the whole time, and you kind of
Speaker 2: lose a sense of you know, proportions, and that is
Speaker 2: an extremely I think that you're very lucky, and not
Speaker 2: just lucky because you found her, but also because you
Speaker 2: knew that you did need someone who challenges you and
Speaker 2: who can hold hers to you, but do it in
Speaker 2: a way that doesn't feel authoritarian or humiliating or ball busting,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And so it creates the right friction. She cares,
Speaker 2: and she can criticize. She loves and she can challenge
Speaker 2: you know, it's both and and holding those tensions in
Speaker 2: a relationship is in my mind, very important and very
Speaker 2: gives a lot of strength and energy to a relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, please, no, No, that's it.
Speaker 2: I think that it's your self awareness of it that
Speaker 2: is really good. It's like, if you had somebody who
Speaker 2: just looks like that, it would have been a problem.
Speaker 2: If you had somebody who just did that, it would
Speaker 2: have been a problem. But you knew that you needed that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't think I knew it before we
Speaker 1: started having that experience, but it it just became really
Speaker 1: evident to me that she loves me for who I am,
Speaker 1: not what I do and what I achieve and how
Speaker 1: I try to impress, for example. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a great reminder for me to love myself for who
Speaker 1: I am and not love myself or what I achieve
Speaker 1: or what I do or what I create. And I
Speaker 1: think that that is a really I'm like, that's the
Speaker 1: very important Yeah, yeah, to have some Yeah. And it's
Speaker 1: also how you perceive it. I think what you're saying
Speaker 1: is true. Like I've talked about it with people, I
Speaker 1: could easily perceive it, and people could perceive it and say, Jay,
Speaker 1: you're just a pushover. Jay, You're just you know, making
Speaker 1: it up. You're making sense of something and it's treatment
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I'm like, well, no, because I can
Speaker 1: see that it's done from love and care and it's humor.
Speaker 1: As you said, it's done from such a special loving
Speaker 1: place that I feel that I know it's a knowingness
Speaker 1: that it is liberating and it is wonderful. But it's
Speaker 1: interesting because I think a lot of people may have
Speaker 1: that experience, but they don't want to be humbled, they
Speaker 1: don't want to access that point. And I'm fortunate that
Speaker 1: my Monk training kicks in there and allows for that
Speaker 1: vulnerability and self reflection and not thinking I'm perfect, Whereas
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's we're scared to do that because
Speaker 1: we almost want our partner to make us feel perfect.
Speaker 2: No, I think that this thing of perfection is I
Speaker 2: think we want our partners to recognize us and accept
Speaker 2: us perfection.
Speaker 1: But it comes in the form of, at least in
Speaker 1: the beginning, demanding adoration and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the beginning is only with the beginning. It's
Speaker 2: one phase of a relationship. I think my friend Ry
Speaker 2: Reel has this beautiful definition. Self esteem or self worth
Speaker 2: or self confidence is seeing ourselves as flawed, imperfect people
Speaker 2: and still hold ourselves in high regard. If you actually
Speaker 2: need to see yourself as perfect, you lack the confidence.
Speaker 2: The confidence is the ability to make mistakes and not
Speaker 2: to not sleep over it for three weeks because you
Speaker 2: feel such shame and such you know, intense attack on
Speaker 2: your identity. But I have a question for you that
Speaker 2: from what you've just said, do you feel that these days,
Speaker 2: on both sides, on all sides of the spectrum of
Speaker 2: the gender spectrum, that people are so enraptured with the
Speaker 2: notion of identity and holding on to the self that
Speaker 2: they find accepting influence from another person an instant their
Speaker 2: identity like pushover. Pushover is like, you know, it's a
Speaker 2: power dynamic instantly when you use that word. You know,
Speaker 2: if you accept what your wife says, what kind of
Speaker 2: a man?
Speaker 1: Are you?
Speaker 2: Right? You're just a pushover. That's more in the masculine
Speaker 2: version that women have it in the but it is
Speaker 2: along the whole spectrum. Something about the way we are
Speaker 2: so busy protecting our egos is making everything that involves
Speaker 2: letting someone else actually have influence over us, which is
Speaker 2: part of what being in a relationship is about.
Speaker 1: As an attack, yeah, I mean, I'd love to discuss
Speaker 1: this with you and my reflection from what you were saying,
Speaker 1: and I was nodding along because there's so much of
Speaker 1: it that I agree with. I think that what I
Speaker 1: see is most of us struggle to know ourselves when
Speaker 1: we get into a relationship. So I think i'd propose
Speaker 1: that I don't think most people have a lot of
Speaker 1: self awareness when they get into a romantic relationship, so
Speaker 1: they don't actually have a conscious sense of self identity.
Speaker 1: We have a subconscious sense of self identity in the
Speaker 1: sense of what our parents taught us and what family
Speaker 1: and meedia. We have all this mix of stuff, but
Speaker 1: we wouldn't if I ask someone to lay out their
Speaker 1: top ten values, they wouldn't be able to do that
Speaker 1: because they'd be like, I'm not sure, And what ends
Speaker 1: up happening. I think in that scenario is you adopt
Speaker 1: the values of the other person, and then at some
Speaker 1: point you go, wait a minute, I've just been doing
Speaker 1: what you want and you think that person made you
Speaker 1: adopt their values, but actually you just didn't know yours
Speaker 1: and so I think you see that happen in some relationships.
Speaker 1: In other relationships, I think what you're saying is true.
Speaker 1: People are so definitive about their own self identity that
Speaker 1: they go into a relationship going, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: get influence at all by this person. And I think
Speaker 1: that also happens because we're getting into long term relationship
Speaker 1: later in life. If you're going into relationship later in life,
Speaker 1: chances are you actually have you know who you are
Speaker 1: and what you want to do and what you're building
Speaker 1: and what's important to you. When you're younger, you're less
Speaker 1: self aware. When you're older, hopefully you're somewhat more self aware,
Speaker 1: and so you're more concrete in your ideology.
Speaker 2: But the opposite could be equally.
Speaker 1: It could be equally.
Speaker 2: When you're young, you think you know everything and you're
Speaker 2: certain about stuff you have no certainty about totally, and
Speaker 2: when you get older, you actually become more flexible because
Speaker 2: you realize that there isn't one way for.
Speaker 1: Everything totally exactly. So it give me both ways. And
Speaker 1: I think overall, I think the point that at least
Speaker 1: I think we're trying to get to, which I like,
Speaker 1: is that it's a bit of both. There's there's it's
Speaker 1: almost like I read that. I'm trying to find this
Speaker 1: poem and I can't find it ever since I read it.
Speaker 1: It's one of those I'm sharing it here because hopefully
Speaker 1: someone finds it. I've read this poem while I was researching,
Speaker 1: and there's this beautiful poet. I can't find it. I've
Speaker 1: like looked for it and everything. But this poet was
Speaker 1: talking about how when you are single, you've been building
Speaker 1: your home home with the bricks that you were given,
Speaker 1: and your home is broken, and some of it's beautiful
Speaker 1: because that's how we are as people. Some parts of
Speaker 1: our home makes sense, and some part of the bricks
Speaker 1: are falling out. And he said, when you come into
Speaker 1: a relationship, you want the other person to move into
Speaker 1: your home. You want them to come to your home,
Speaker 1: and the other person wants you to go to their home.
Speaker 1: But actually what you need to do is take the
Speaker 1: bricks you both like from your own homes and build
Speaker 1: a new home together. And I really love that visual.
Speaker 1: The idea that this unified agreement, which was the language
Speaker 1: you used, or this idea that you're saying of like,
Speaker 1: how much do I allow the influence without feeling powerless,
Speaker 1: but to feel like we're co creating something. You know,
Speaker 1: my wife and I have a lot of agreements that
Speaker 1: they're not rules or contracts, with their agreements of how
Speaker 1: we deal with certain things, and it's something we've created together.
Speaker 1: It's not something we adopted from my parents, her parents,
Speaker 1: or anywhere else. And I feel that if we walked
Speaker 1: into a relation and said what do we want to build together?
Speaker 1: What do we want to create together? What does a
Speaker 1: good healthy relationship mean to us? To me, those questions
Speaker 1: at least feel empowering as opposed to draining of power.
Speaker 2: One of the complementarities in relationships is that we are
Speaker 2: often drawn to a person who brings characteristics that we
Speaker 2: are trying to get away from.
Speaker 1: So true, so understand, Yes, so true.
Speaker 2: So it's a I mean, when it's dynamic, it's really
Speaker 2: a very beautiful you know, kneading of the dough.
Speaker 1: So, as said, throughout conversation, you've been referencing this new
Speaker 1: course of yours, which I'm so excited for people to
Speaker 1: do because I feel like so many of what things
Speaker 1: we've discovered today with your books and your main practice. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: how do you actually apply it, So please tell us
Speaker 1: where we can find this course and the name of
Speaker 1: the course and where it.
Speaker 2: Is turning conflict into connection. It's a one hour eight
Speaker 2: videos with a fantastic workbook that really not just helps
Speaker 2: you fight better and more constructively, but also helps you
Speaker 2: relate better, because if you have a different attitude to
Speaker 2: a conflict, do you have a whole different relationship. It's
Speaker 2: on my website a Staparil dot com and it's coming
Speaker 2: out October tenth.
Speaker 1: Okay, amazing. Well, I recommend everyone who's listening and watching
Speaker 1: make sure you go and check out the course. If
Speaker 1: you've loved this conversation, I know you're going to get
Speaker 1: so much value from it, so much insight. And of
Speaker 1: course make sure you go and take a look at
Speaker 1: all of USTA's books as well, so please check those out.
Speaker 1: I want to do one last thing, did with you? Yes?
Speaker 1: Did you did our final five last time?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Because when we don't fight, I want you to play.
Speaker 2: And so first I created the game. I said, let's play.
Speaker 1: I love it. This is beautiful game. Where should we begin?
Speaker 1: A game of stories? By Esteburell. If you don't have
Speaker 1: this gravitude, we're gonna pick a couple of cards and
Speaker 1: have some fun with this.
Speaker 2: Open it like a chocolate.
Speaker 1: Oh, they are like and Belgium. You know what's really
Speaker 1: I love chocolate. So you speak in my language completely too.
Speaker 1: I'm going to take this out and we're going to
Speaker 1: shuffle these cards and then what do we do? Pick
Speaker 1: one at random?
Speaker 2: Yes, we pick Look, this is you know, relationships are stories,
Speaker 2: and we tell stories about ourselves to people at every
Speaker 2: level and we recreate connection, intimacy and fun.
Speaker 1: You pick this is fun? Oh I'm picking, and then
Speaker 1: you hold it. You shuffle it too, then to make
Speaker 1: sure everyone knows that this is truly random. I want
Speaker 1: to have some fun and I love stuff like this.
Speaker 1: So I love games. I love play like one of
Speaker 1: my wife's and my favorite things to do is we
Speaker 1: play a lot of pickleball.
Speaker 2: Right now, you write to me after you've played with
Speaker 2: her Escape rooms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to this one. I'm gonna yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: I'd love to.
Speaker 2: All right, all right, we go Okay, if you don't
Speaker 2: like it, you pick another.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, that it works well?
Speaker 2: Works like now.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a few. I'll do a few
Speaker 1: because they're quick. So at a party, You'll find me,
Speaker 1: is the prompt. And so at a party, you'll find
Speaker 1: me finding the one person I can have a deep,
Speaker 1: meaningful conversation with, sitting in the corner with them and
Speaker 1: having existential conversations for the whole night, and people may
Speaker 1: not even know I was at the party.
Speaker 2: That would be me really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, then we'd just be sitting next to each other. Great,
Speaker 1: I love that. So I do that with you. I
Speaker 1: love it. Oh me again, Yeah, Oh, you're like poking
Speaker 1: that out to me. This is like, I got it there,
Speaker 1: you go all right, Oh wow. If I could change
Speaker 1: something about the way I was raised, it would be
Speaker 1: so the easy answer, The first thing that came to
Speaker 1: mind is I wouldn't change anything because I'm really happy
Speaker 1: with the human I am today and how my life
Speaker 1: has gone the way it has. I really, I really
Speaker 1: think that is my honest answer. But if I if
Speaker 1: I could change something about the way I was raised.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't just have to be your family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say it would be I would have
Speaker 1: loved earlier on to know that there were so many
Speaker 1: more careers and paths in the world. So when I
Speaker 1: met the monks when I was eighteen, years old. That
Speaker 1: was the first time my mind was open to that path.
Speaker 1: But it took me years to recognize that you could
Speaker 1: have a career in media, that you could have a
Speaker 1: career in do this, do this, like I never thought.
Speaker 1: I never knew any of that. Like I literally thought
Speaker 1: there were like three It sounds ridiculous, but I was
Speaker 1: so limited in my thinking growing up because of what
Speaker 1: I was surrounded by. I would change that. I want
Speaker 1: people to know that there are so many different I
Speaker 1: didn't know you could be a therapist. I didn't know
Speaker 1: you could be a neuroscientist. I didn't know you could
Speaker 1: be I would have wanted to be a neuroscientist if
Speaker 1: I knew that existed.
Speaker 2: I didn't know I can be a therapist outside my office.
Speaker 2: I've worked in a field that is very confidential. I
Speaker 2: could never talk about what I did, and through the podcast,
Speaker 2: I'm able to work with people who are not patients,
Speaker 2: will never be and so I can actually bring what
Speaker 2: is happening between the four walls to the world and
Speaker 2: bring the world inside the office. And you can be
Speaker 2: a fly on the world in someone else's session.
Speaker 1: Amazing. So just from I never on the game is
Speaker 1: called where should we begin. You can also or the
Speaker 1: game as well, playing with your friends, family, and with your.
Speaker 2: Dates with your partner. You grab a few cards, you
Speaker 2: put in your pocket, you can leave the box and
Speaker 2: off you go into storyline.
Speaker 1: Love it and you can surprise someone with chocolates in
Speaker 1: it too.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you can mix you can mix.
Speaker 1: It mess es. There has been such an Honestly, talking
Speaker 1: to you, I feel so It's really interesting when you
Speaker 1: talk to someone and you just feel like you've immersed
Speaker 1: yourself so deeply in this space for so many decades,
Speaker 1: and the wisdom shines through your words, it shines through
Speaker 1: your empathy at the same time your assertiveness. I am
Speaker 1: so grateful that you do what you do for the world. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I learn so much from you. I learn so much
Speaker 1: from your work. I'm a student of your work, and
Speaker 1: I honestly feel humbled and grateful that I've got to
Speaker 1: spend this time with you. And I highly encourage everyone
Speaker 1: to go and immerse themselves in your world in all ways.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for the gift of the world.
Speaker 1: I really mean that thank you means a lot an
Speaker 1: thank you. If you love this episode, you're going to love.
Speaker 1: My conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over
Speaker 1: your ex and find true love in your relationships.
Speaker 2: People should be compassionate to themselves that extend.
Speaker 1: That compassion to your future self, because truly extending your
Speaker 1: compassion to your future self is doing something that gives
Speaker 1: him or her a
Speaker 2: Shot at a happy and a peaceful life