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Speaker 2: We are often drawn to a person who brings characteristics

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Speaker 2: that we are trying to get away from. Are you

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Speaker 2: looking for chemistry for a love story or are you

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Speaker 2: looking for chemistry for a life story?

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Speaker 1: To a psychotherapist, author and hosts around the clause, welcome,

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Speaker 1: How do you turn conflict into connection?

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Speaker 2: It's not what you fight about, it's what you fight for.

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Speaker 1: How do you know if a relationship is worth saving?

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Speaker 1: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite

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Speaker 1: you to join this community to hear more interviews that

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Speaker 1: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All

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Speaker 1: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.

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Speaker 1: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your

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Speaker 1: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for subscribing. It means the world to me.

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Speaker 2: The number one health and well inness podcast.

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Speaker 1: Jay Sheety Jay Shetty say, hey everyone, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: On Purpose, the number one health and wellness podcast in

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Speaker 1: the world. Thanks to each and every one of you

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Speaker 1: that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and

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Speaker 1: more healed. Today's guest is someone that we've had on before,

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Speaker 1: and you loved her. I know you loved her before,

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Speaker 1: but you loved her on the show and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: wait to get her back on because we've never actually

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Speaker 1: met in person until this day. I've loved her books

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Speaker 1: from Afar, We've connected over messagings and emails, and we

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Speaker 1: have so many mutual friends, and I'm so grateful that

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Speaker 1: I finally get to sit in her present today and

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Speaker 1: actually get to do this interview face to face. Please

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Speaker 1: welcome back to On Purpose, Esther, peroo, Esther, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for doing this, Thank you for making the time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you genuinely so grateful.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here in three d.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly after all these years. I think the first

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Speaker 1: time I interviewed you must have been during the pandemic

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Speaker 1: or something like that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I remember I remember very clearly seeing you

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Speaker 2: through the screen and saying, oh, this is a new life.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Well, let's say, let's dive straight in

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Speaker 1: because I have so many questions today. I have questions

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Speaker 1: from me, I have questions from our audience, we have

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Speaker 1: questions from social media. We're going to get to play

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Speaker 1: your game as well, which I'm very excited about and

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Speaker 1: pick some questions from. But my first question is, how

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Speaker 1: do you know if a relationship is worth saving?

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Speaker 2: Shall I stay or shall I go? Is one of

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Speaker 2: the fundamental questions. And here's the thing. Even if you

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Speaker 2: decide to stay, or even if they decide to go,

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Speaker 2: you may do so while at the same time having

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Speaker 2: a part of you that actually holds the other side.

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Speaker 2: If you think that the decision is one hundred percent perfect,

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Speaker 2: no doubt, no hesitation, then it's a set up. If

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Speaker 2: you leave, you need to be able to leave while

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Speaker 2: experiencing the loss of some things that may have been good,

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Speaker 2: even if it's just a dream of what was. If

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Speaker 2: you stay, you have to be able to grieve the

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Speaker 2: part of you that will never know what it would

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Speaker 2: have been like if you actually left. So the answer

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Speaker 2: is not in the extreme determination. It's in the ability

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Speaker 2: to hold the inherent contradictions it's a complex question, and

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Speaker 2: complex questions don't have easy, binary answers.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting, isn't it, Because we crave a binary,

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Speaker 1: easy answer we wanted to feel. We often seek complete

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Speaker 1: clarity when we're trying to make a decision rather than

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Speaker 1: accepting that a decision is followed by consequences and a

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Speaker 1: number of different feelings. You use the word grief there, yes,

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Speaker 1: And I've seen research that shows how when someone breaks

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Speaker 1: up with you, or when you break up with someone,

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Speaker 1: you almost crave them, like we crave an addiction that

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Speaker 1: may even be unhealthy for us at times. Why do

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Speaker 1: you use the word grief? And can you walk us

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Speaker 1: through both of those losses of identity that you spoke

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Speaker 1: about on either end?

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Speaker 2: So grief is because I think every choice comes with loss.

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Speaker 2: The consequence is the choice you didn't make and even

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Speaker 2: though you think this is the right choice and this

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Speaker 2: is what I must do, the grief may be the

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Speaker 2: fact that you didn't you were not capable of making

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Speaker 2: this thing work, or that you had such high hopes

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Speaker 2: and it didn't materialize, or that you have wished that

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Speaker 2: you didn't make some mistakes that you made, or that

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Speaker 2: you wish you had left sooner. There's lots of thing

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Speaker 2: fruit ways, but there is no choice that doesn't have loss,

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Speaker 2: and therefore some grief attached to it, and that is

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Speaker 2: the nature of the beast. That does not mean that

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Speaker 2: you didn't make the right choice in terms of heartbreak,

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Speaker 2: It's a different part. Yes, some people experience heartbreak with

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Speaker 2: such an ache, with such a sense of longing and

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Speaker 2: such a sense of fracturing on the inside that they

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Speaker 2: are that their longing becomes obsessive, that they are trapped

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Speaker 2: in rumination, and that it experienced like a withdrawal. That

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Speaker 2: is not all breakups, but that is the extreme kind

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Speaker 2: of breakup which has been compared to an addiction because

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Speaker 2: of the intense sense of withdrawal and because it takes

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Speaker 2: place in the same centers in the brain.

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Speaker 1: Let's say someone does want to save their relationship, they

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Speaker 1: want to make it work. What does that take on

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Speaker 1: a deeper level from that individual? What have you seen

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Speaker 1: over the years of what it really takes. I think

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Speaker 1: we often think of saving a relationship as like, let's

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Speaker 1: do more date nights, let's spend more time together, let's

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Speaker 1: do more this. But what have you seen it really

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Speaker 1: takes from a human.

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Speaker 2: So look, I work with relationships for forty years. These

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Speaker 2: are questions that I can answer in multiple ways. So

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Speaker 2: I'm going to answer it in one way with you today,

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Speaker 2: and somebody is going to say, but you didn't talk

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Speaker 2: about that. So I just want to preface that because

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Speaker 2: there isn't one size fits all. And when I'm going

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Speaker 2: to highlight something now with you, because it's the first

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Speaker 2: thing that came into my mind. When you ask what

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Speaker 2: can we do to actually repair our relationships, strengthen them,

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Speaker 2: fortify them, solidify them, enlivened them, one of the first

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Speaker 2: things I often think about is accountability. It's actually not

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Speaker 2: asking the other person to do all the changing. Somebody

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Speaker 2: is going to tell me, but what if you've done

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Speaker 2: that and it hasn't made any difference on the other side.

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Speaker 2: So I just want that to be mentioned in Generally,

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Speaker 2: in relationships, we often get to a place where we

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Speaker 2: think you need to change. Here. I'm going to tell

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Speaker 2: you what you could do differently that would make this

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Speaker 2: relationship better. And the hardest thing to do is to

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Speaker 2: actually say what can I do? Because if you change,

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Speaker 2: it is quite sure that it will also create change

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Speaker 2: on the other side. Because we are interdependent parts in

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Speaker 2: a relationship. I start to do something which makes you

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Speaker 2: do something, which makes me do something. It's a figure eight.

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Speaker 2: But if I start to do something else sooner or later,

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Speaker 2: you cannot continue do the same. If I no longer

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Speaker 2: answer you when you say something, there's a good chance

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Speaker 2: that at some point you're going to stop saying it

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Speaker 2: because you don't get the reaction that you've been used

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Speaker 2: to get. So there's no better way to change the

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Speaker 2: other than to change ourselves. But that's not one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent thing. It's just a good principle to keep in mind.

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Speaker 2: What is it that I can do differently? What's one

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Speaker 2: thing I could choose that I know would improve the

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Speaker 2: relationship because I've heard you, because I know us, And

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Speaker 2: if I don't instantly walk out every time, but I

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Speaker 2: actually stay and I listen and I pay attention, will

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Speaker 2: that create something rather than thinking about, you know, all

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Speaker 2: the good reasons why I should get out or leave

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Speaker 2: in that moment. So this accountability piece is very high

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Speaker 2: on my list, But there are ten other things about

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Speaker 2: what makes us work on a relationship to improve it.

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Speaker 1: And you talked about there, how you know, trying to

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Speaker 1: change the other person isn't necessarily the focus, but for

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Speaker 1: so many of us, that seems to be the problem.

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Speaker 1: The problem seems to be the other person's behaviors, their attitude,

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Speaker 1: their approach to life, maybe their aspirations. I hear a

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Speaker 1: lot of people say things like they don't dream enough,

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Speaker 1: they don't dream, they dream too little, right, like it's

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Speaker 1: much too much, Right, that's it. Yeah. I hear some

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Speaker 1: people say they don't dream enough, they dream too much. Yes.

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Speaker 1: I hear people say, oh, they have too many friends,

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Speaker 1: they have no friends, right. I see people at both

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Speaker 1: ends of the spectrum. We always seem to have issues

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Speaker 1: with how our partners live. And what I've learned, at

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Speaker 1: least in my own personal reflection, and I've found, is

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Speaker 1: that for a long time in my relationships, I often

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Speaker 1: projected the way I lived onto my partner, and we

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Speaker 1: so strongly believe that the way we live is right,

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Speaker 1: the way we were brought up is right, that we

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Speaker 1: want our partner to kind of follow suit. And I

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Speaker 1: always give this very small example from my own home.

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Speaker 1: But in my house, we used to eat, hang out,

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Speaker 1: and then at the end of the night we'd wash

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Speaker 1: the dishes. In my wife's home, they used to eat,

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Speaker 1: wash the dishes, and then hang out. And so when

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Speaker 1: we got married and we started living together, and when

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Speaker 1: we were having friends over or whatever it may be,

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Speaker 1: in my mind, we're gonna eat, we're gonna hang out,

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Speaker 1: and then we're gonna wash the dishes. And now my

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Speaker 1: wife's sat mind, she's thinking, we're gonna eat. Now we

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Speaker 1: have to clean up, make sure everything's clean, and then

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Speaker 1: we can hang out. And something as little as that

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Speaker 1: can call so much friction and bad communication and feelings of, oh,

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Speaker 1: you don't care about me, and you don't love me,

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Speaker 1: and you don't appreciate me, or you don't value the work.

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Speaker 1: And there's so much that comes from something. And that's

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Speaker 1: just a very small example. But it's interesting to me

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Speaker 1: that in that scenario, we both had not created a

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Speaker 1: new belief system for our relationship, but we're operating based

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Speaker 1: on two old belief systems that we'd simply adopted. Walk

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Speaker 1: us through, whether you agree, whether you disagree, whether you

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Speaker 1: can edit that, reveal more to us about I find

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Speaker 1: so many of our challenges exist because we project our

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Speaker 1: operating system onto someone else, rather than creating one with them.

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Speaker 2: I like the way you call it the operating system.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to take a sentence that you highlighted

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Speaker 2: and start from there. You said, here, we were fighting

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Speaker 2: about what's the right moment to do the dishes, But

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Speaker 2: in fact, what we were talking about is you don't care.

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Speaker 2: You don't see me, you don't appreciate me. You wanted

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Speaker 2: your way. And what you're highlighting here is something that

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Speaker 2: I've actually talked a lot about in a new course

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Speaker 2: that I'm doing on conflict, which is exactly that how

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Speaker 2: do you turn conflict into connection? And one of the

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Speaker 2: things I say is that it's not what you fight about,

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Speaker 2: it's what you fight for. You were fighting for recognition,

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Speaker 2: you were fighting for power and control, you were fighting

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Speaker 2: for respect, you were fighting for trust and closeness. Underneath

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Speaker 2: the fight, there are usually three sets of issues that

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Speaker 2: we are actually fighting for, and that is power, trust,

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Speaker 2: and value. So you don't value me. You know, I

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Speaker 2: worked on this cooking, I made this nice meal, like prepared.

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Speaker 2: I try to be kind to your friends, and you

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Speaker 2: don't value me. Once you've understood that, what is the

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Speaker 2: hidden dimension that you are actually fighting for? The fight

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Speaker 2: the dishes, the when to do them becomes a lot

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Speaker 2: more clear. A lot more clear, rather than it's not

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Speaker 2: just I'm imposing my belief on you and I want

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Speaker 2: it to do my way because my way is the

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Speaker 2: right way. That's you may think this way. But the

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Speaker 2: question is what happens when you have to confront yourself

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Speaker 2: with someone who is different. I mean, everything about relationships

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Speaker 2: is about straddling sameness and difference, you know, and when

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Speaker 2: you are a couple's therapists, it's very typical that people

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Speaker 2: come to you and I co a drop off center, right,

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Speaker 2: They tell you, you know, here my relationship, here's my partner.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you what's wrong with them, and maybe

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Speaker 2: you can fix them. And I'll help.

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Speaker 3: You jump on how to make my partner understand why

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Speaker 3: my family's way of doing things is the best way

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Speaker 3: of doing things.

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Speaker 2: It's a very good way. And so then the question

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Speaker 2: is if you have to change your mind, does that

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Speaker 2: mean that it's a loss of your identity or can

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Speaker 2: you actually experience that as an expansion as something that

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Speaker 2: you in How do you let the other person influence

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Speaker 2: you without being constantly in the defense of your you know,

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Speaker 2: this is my flag and here are my values or

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Speaker 2: my operation system.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I really really relate to what you're saying. And

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Speaker 1: I love how you've broken it down to what we're

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Speaker 1: fighting for versus what we're fighting about. I think that's brilliant.

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Speaker 1: And that's from your masterclass, right.

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Speaker 2: No, this is from my own new course.

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Speaker 1: Oh, this is from that.

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Speaker 2: I am coming out with it very soon. And that's

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Speaker 2: really about letting people have a very different view and

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Speaker 2: set of skills for handling conflict like this one. You know,

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Speaker 2: at first it was a nice thing. You didn't fight about.

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Speaker 2: You just said, we do it. Oh, that's so interesting. No,

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Speaker 2: let's do it now. No, And then slowly, because you

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Speaker 2: couldn't come into an unified agreement, it became a point

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Speaker 2: of contention. And then that point of contention became the

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Speaker 2: go to every time you need to talk about your backgrounds,

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Speaker 2: your values, your style, your priorities, your way of doing.

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Speaker 1: I think we feel so robbed, or at least when

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Speaker 1: I speak to people about this, they feel so robbed,

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Speaker 1: as you said, of their identity. But also, as you said,

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Speaker 1: people feel robbed of their power that if I give

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Speaker 1: in to this other person, my partner may be the

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Speaker 1: more powerful one in the relationship, or if I concede,

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Speaker 1: then in the future when we're making decisions, they're going

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Speaker 1: to think I'm going to concede. And often that is

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Speaker 1: the case that people get into relationships because they think

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Speaker 1: the other person is submissive or conceding to them, or

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Speaker 1: agrees with them on everything they say. And then one

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Speaker 1: day that person goes, wait a minute, I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: I just gave up everything I care about for you.

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Speaker 1: And so how does one learn how to practice that

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Speaker 1: humility and giving up of power? Or is the solution

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Speaker 1: a unified agreement as you called it just there? What

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Speaker 1: are we trying to unravel? How do we do that?

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Speaker 1: Because I think that, but.

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Speaker 2: You just betrayed yourself in the question. Okay, your whole

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Speaker 2: question is framed in power terms. Concede, acquiesce, give in

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Speaker 2: loss of self, loss of power. Yes, some people feel

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Speaker 2: this way. That is one frame for some people to

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Speaker 2: enter into a relationship. But if I actually change the

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Speaker 2: word power, I could go like this. In every relationship,

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Speaker 2: you will find that there often is one person who

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Speaker 2: is more afraid of losing the other and one person

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Speaker 2: who is more afraid of losing themselves, one person more

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Speaker 2: afraid of abandonment and rejection, therefore more likely to acquiesce,

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Speaker 2: to pacify, to placate, to say yes, until maybe one

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Speaker 2: day not and one person more afraid of suffocation. And

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Speaker 2: therefore they fight for their ideas, their ways of doing it.

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Speaker 2: The timing of the dishes, and that is less about power.

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Speaker 2: That is more about the nature of connection. The majority

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Speaker 2: of power struggles in a relationship are not power struggles.

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Speaker 2: Power is the defense. The control battle is the way

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Speaker 2: people are defending, trying to get something for something else

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Speaker 2: that they are worried about. It's the surface behavior. You know,

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Speaker 2: some people, when they're afraid, they fight, but the issue

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Speaker 2: is not fighting. The issue is that they're actually afraid

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Speaker 2: and they're trying to deal with their fear by gaining control.

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Speaker 2: So don't just go for what you see, because what

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Speaker 2: you see isn't necessarily just what it is. Go always

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Speaker 2: looking at a level below. Otherwise you're going to have

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of this yeah exactly. And so you're encouraging those people

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Speaker 1: that feel that way to look at that layer deeper.

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Speaker 1: The giving in yeah makes.

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Speaker 2: You lose your identity. Where did you get that idea?

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Speaker 2: Who did you have to fight with that? You had

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Speaker 2: a sense that if you don't go all the way

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Speaker 2: and with fists. That's the motion of fighting. Right, it's

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Speaker 2: not this, you know, but you enter the relationship with that,

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Speaker 2: and yet you live it with this. So what happened

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Speaker 2: to you that is making you continuously interpret every situation

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Speaker 2: as a fight, as a power struggle, as I have

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Speaker 2: to stand up and hold on because if I give in,

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Speaker 2: this is the beginning of a slippery slope. That's a

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Speaker 2: frame that is not the truth. Now, maybe you picked

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Speaker 2: somebody with whom this is sometimes what is going to happen.

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Speaker 2: So then you ask this person what happens if you

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Speaker 2: don't get you awigh? For you, the question is what

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Speaker 2: happens if the other person gets their way? And for you,

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Speaker 2: the question is what happens when you don't get you awigh?

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Speaker 2: Can you still feel confident even if you don't trample somebody?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think the questions you answer asking that

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Speaker 1: we all need to reflect on for ourselves. I almost

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Speaker 1: think they're as important to ask our partners, like to

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Speaker 1: understand what happened to them, like why they're in that position,

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Speaker 1: why they get afraid? And I think that curiosity is

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Speaker 1: so often lost in romantic relationships, where we don't understand

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Speaker 1: why someone is the way they are. We just assume

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Speaker 1: that it's about us, like we make it personal. We

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Speaker 1: don't recognize that they have a whole history of relationships,

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Speaker 1: of family, of parenting, of experiences that have made them

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Speaker 1: that way, and maybe they are dealing with a deep

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Speaker 1: fear or a deep challenge. Does that resonate?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know. This thing about curiosity is the most

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Speaker 2: important shift. We try to make Curiosity about yourself and

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Speaker 2: curiosity about your partner or friend or coworker, whoever. The

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Speaker 2: other is. Curiosity is on the other side of reactivity.

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Speaker 2: So everything dealing with conflict is about helping us shift

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Speaker 2: from reactive to reflective and curious. But more interestingly, what

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Speaker 2: you reminded me of is a thing I talk about

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Speaker 2: in the course. That's called fundamental attribution error. If you

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Speaker 2: are nasty or reactive, or bullying me a bit, or

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Speaker 2: if just simply if you late whatever you're doing, that

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Speaker 2: the tendency is to think that when you do this,

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Speaker 2: it's because you have a negative personality. But if I

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Speaker 2: am nasty or short, or you know, cutting a little bit,

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Speaker 2: then it's because I had a tough day. Mine is

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Speaker 2: circumstantial and yours is character logical and the loss of

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Speaker 2: curiosity in relationships is because we tend to think that

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Speaker 2: we are more complex than our partner. And that's what

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Speaker 2: makes us not ask what is your story with this?

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Speaker 2: Why do you need to get things your way all

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Speaker 2: the time? Why do you have to really din until

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Speaker 2: I finally say whatever you want there? You know, we'll

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Speaker 2: do it your way? Because unless you got it your way,

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Speaker 2: you think that you are, you know, on the floor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people, and as you've I mean, you've

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Speaker 1: done this for decades now, Like I'm sure you feel

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Speaker 1: that what we're really addressing here, which I'm so happy

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Speaker 1: that we've kind of gone in this direction. It's beautiful

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Speaker 1: and I'm so happy that with that that this idea

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Speaker 1: of are you curious about yourself and why it's happening

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Speaker 1: and what happened to you? Are you curious about your

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Speaker 1: partner and what happened to them? Are you not making

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Speaker 1: it personal? Are you thinking about working as a team,

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Speaker 1: building unified agreements? All of this language is so positive,

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Speaker 1: and I genuinely believe that what we've just covered is

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Speaker 1: so often missed in relationships because we're so busy pointing

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Speaker 1: the finger and pointing the blame and pointing the responsibility

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Speaker 1: that as you started off with, there's a lack of accountability,

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Speaker 1: and that being such a brilliant shift to even just

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Speaker 1: start liberating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually liberating for people to say, let me

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Speaker 2: check myself for a minute. The fear that people have

390
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Speaker 2: is why me? Is it my problem? Why are you

391
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Speaker 2: blaming me? No? No, no. Taking responsibility is liberating because

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Speaker 2: the only thing you can really change is you. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot more freedom to do something about yourself than

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Speaker 2: to go look for your partner on the other side.

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Speaker 2: I had a moment like that, simply so I was

396
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Speaker 2: on the phone and I was a little agitated talking

397
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Speaker 2: to banks and people and administrating bureaucracy, which gets me agitated.

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Speaker 2: And then my partner said, you know you doo. And

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Speaker 2: then my partner says, my husband says to me, I

400
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Speaker 2: have a headache. I said, what happened? He says, You've

401
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Speaker 2: been so yelling here next to me in the car,

402
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Speaker 2: and I'm like, you know, I'm trying to solve these

403
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Speaker 2: problems and you can't just say to me, you know,

404
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Speaker 2: that's really frustrating. These people were like, keeping you on

405
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Speaker 2: the phone for an hour. You think I wanted to

406
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Speaker 2: be on the phone for an hour with this, and

407
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Speaker 2: I just felt like a little lack of empathy, please,

408
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Speaker 2: a bit of sympathy, some support, And on top of it,

409
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Speaker 2: I'm getting called now for my attitude. And I sat

410
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Speaker 2: there and I began, you know, brooding, and I said, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I thought, if you don't want to, if I'm that unpleasant,

414
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Speaker 2: well then I'm not going to say anything. And then

415
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Speaker 2: I sat in there and thinking, I'm married almost forty

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking to myself, am I going to go do

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Speaker 2: this one again? You know? Why am I doing this?

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Speaker 2: Why do I feel so upset? Why don't I just

419
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Speaker 2: simply say I can imagine that it was unpleasant to

420
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Speaker 2: So he says to me, why don't you say something

421
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Speaker 2: about the fact that it's really annoying to sit next

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Speaker 2: to someone who is so agitated? And I'm thinking, why

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Speaker 2: doesn't you say something about how frustrated it is that

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Speaker 2: I need to be so agitated, you know? And this

425
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Speaker 2: could have turned into a real fight, And luckily a

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Speaker 2: little bit of humor takes us out of this very quickly.

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Speaker 2: It's like we game, like how many minutes are we going.

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Speaker 1: To do this, yes, you know, And where was that

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Speaker 1: coming from? After all this time? Like, like you said,

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Speaker 1: you've been together for four decades, you love each other,

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Speaker 1: like you trust each other, You've worked through so many

432
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: of these things. What do you think it is that

433
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: we're still fighting for in that moment? Like? What is it?

434
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't go away? You're right, like he has

435
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 1: two answers.

436
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: I mean, we would have very different answers to your question.

437
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 2: First of all, just so you understand, I will tell

438
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 2: you I sometimes, you know, hear him talk in a

439
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: situation like this and he's very could you explain to

440
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 2: me why this is? And I'm thinking tell him that

441
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: this is not right, you know, And he says afterwards

442
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: he hangs up, just I was very angry on the phone.

443
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 2: Excuse me. That is good, you know. So I don't

444
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,199
Speaker 2: think I get much further by being more you know,

445
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: confrontational than Actually I don't think I'm any more effective.

446
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: I think these situations are frustrating whichever way. But we

447
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 2: get into an argument over which of our approaches is

448
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: the better one to talk with the bureaucracy.

449
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous, yeah, exactly, And it's so.

450
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: He thinks I should be nicer, right, right, and I

451
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: think he should be a little more.

452
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And what are you saying. Are you saying

453
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 1: that neither approach matters and we're arguing about something insignificant

454
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: or is it?

455
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. You're in a situation where you are

456
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 2: bound to not necessarily be success. Yes, you're bound to

457
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: experience some helplessness. It is frustrating, The situation is frustrating.

458
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: Instead of dealing with the frustration of the situation, you

459
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: start to blame the other person for the fact that

460
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: they didn't get to the result that you wanted. Instead

461
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: of this kind of situation where you go back week

462
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: after week with another person on the phone automated thing,

463
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: you know, and instead of align together against the situation,

464
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: you start to project onto the other. Why are you

465
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: not competent so that I don't have to feel so helpless?

466
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, yes, yeah, wow, yeah exactly. And I can

467
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: relate that we had a similar one kind of inverse

468
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: to what you just said, but a similar interaction where

469
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 1: I remember my wife would often say to me, I've

470
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: had a really tough day, and I take that as

471
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: an opportunity to say I had a tough day too,

472
00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: and I would I had a tough week, really, you know.

473
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: And it's like I'm using her opportunity to be vulnerable

474
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: and to share how she feels with me and to

475
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: feel comforted and supported and just heard to be heard.

476
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm using her opportunity to be heard to hear myself.

477
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like when you were looking at

478
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: me looking at myself earlier. It's like that that idea

479
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: of she's saying, hey, just sit with me for a second,

480
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: and I'm saying, when I sit with me for a

481
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: week and think about where I'm coming from, you yeah,

482
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: And then that it just turns into a competition as

483
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: to whose life is tougher and making the other person

484
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: feel like their pain is not valuable or that their

485
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: stress that they've gone through is insignificant compared to mine.

486
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, you're fighting for something that

487
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: you don't even want to prove to your partner, Like

488
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to make my partner feel like their

489
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: pain is not valuable. But because I'm not honoring my

490
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: challenge and my stress and what I'm going through, I'm

491
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: expecting to use their space to do that.

492
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: You just expanded very well, but sometimes yeah, please, I

493
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: mean the effect is the same you topping her, you know,

494
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: in such a big way, completely says to her you

495
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: have nothing to complain about, which is not necessarily your intention,

496
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 2: but it is often the way the other person registers it.

497
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: And then the question to you is do you ever

498
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: say to her I have a tough week without her

499
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: prompt Yes, because part of what happens is that you

500
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,479
Speaker 2: get prompted by the other person and it suddenly says, oh,

501
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: if you give yourself the permission to say to complain

502
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: or to just vent a moment, then maybe I get

503
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: that permission too. And what changes it is to just,

504
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: you know, is to acknowledge what it has just been

505
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: said and then to say I have that feeling often too. Yeah,

506
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: but it is the competition. It is the you suffer

507
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: I suffer more.

508
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Now, Now something that's really helped me to

509
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: use humor. Now, Yeah, my white wife can make anything funny.

510
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: So I rely on her to bring the humor in

511
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: because she's just very Yeah, she's just she's hilarious's comedians,

512
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: so not as a not professionally, she's just a funny

513
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,719
Speaker 1: person and so she can always add that. But now

514
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: what really helps me, and this is more what I'm like,

515
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: is I'm kind of preemptive of stress, and so I'll

516
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: sit down and hey, I've got a really stressful week

517
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: coming up. I just want you to be aware of that.

518
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: And so you know, if I'm a bit shorter, i'm

519
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: running around, or I'm not fully pressed, I just want

520
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: you to be aware. I've got a lot of stuff

521
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: going on, and if you need me, of course I'll

522
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: be there, but just know. And I like to set

523
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: that up and communicate that because to me, it gives

524
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: me space to at least let her know where I'm

525
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: coming from, rather than to catch me in a bad

526
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: moment and then I end up behaving in a way

527
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: that I'm not proud of, whereas now she's aware. So

528
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: now she's mindful of that too, and she doesn't have

529
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: to tiptoe around me. She doesn't have to be unaware.

530
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: But it's the idea that she's conscious that I get it.

531
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: He's got three crazy days coming up, and you know,

532
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: we can talk about something maybe the day after.

533
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: Can I take this one asleep?

534
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: I love that. I'd love that.

535
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: It's probably one of the most useful things I have

536
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: seen changing in a relationship. When you do what you

537
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: just do, You're attentive, you're caring, you let her know

538
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: you're apologetic, and being apologetic is very beautiful, but it

539
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: still says my life is very important, and I just

540
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: want you to know I'm not going to be there.

541
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 2: The step that really changes it around is when you

542
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 2: say to the other person, I'm so thankful that you

543
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: are here, because you're being here is what enables me

544
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: to go take care of.

545
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: My busy week.

546
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: Because once you say it like that, you make the

547
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: other person very important and not my life is so important.

548
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: Thank you for understanding it. You come after. I'll be

549
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: there if you need me, but you come after. The

550
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: thanking reinforces the interdependence, and it's true because you couldn't

551
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: go and attend to your life the way you do

552
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: without having the other person do whatever it takes for

553
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: you to be able to be absent for a while.

554
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: And when you acknowledge that, it makes them feel like

555
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: they're part of the story rather than they're on hold

556
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: while your story on false.

557
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. And I've

558
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: always found that, at least for me, doing that separately

559
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: in different contexts, has at least helped me when it's

560
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: not tied to the same context. But I love that

561
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: idea and I fully agree with you, Like you know,

562
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: I think it's a nice Yeah, it's beautiful.

563
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: It's a tweak that really changes the power dynamics and

564
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: the relationship in a small move.

565
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, it's switching the significance from yourself yes, to

566
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: this relationship and the support that you each provide. Yeah,

567
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. I love that. I love what we're talking about.

568
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: And you've probably heard this a million times, and that's

569
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: what I think it's important to address. A lot of

570
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: people will say I want to talk to my partner

571
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: about these things. I want to be curious about them.

572
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: I want to ask them about their past. But every

573
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: time I do, they shut down, they go quiet, they

574
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it. If I get curious

575
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: and say, hey, you know, when we're not arguing, when

576
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: we're just talking, and I say, hey, you know what

577
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: I just I just wanted to figure out, like, is

578
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: there anything that scares you from your pastor is anything

579
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: that worries your Is there any challenge you're going through

580
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: that how can I help you? And the other person

581
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: is no, No, I'm fine, I'm okay. I'm dealing with it.

582
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: And people often feel like they get shut down when

583
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: they're trying to be curious. I'm sure you've heard a

584
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: million times in sessions, and how have you how have

585
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: you dealt with that?

586
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: If you've tried to ask your partner a certain set

587
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: of questions and you systematically get the same answer, change tactic.

588
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: The point is not doing it one more time hoping

589
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: that this time you're going to get a better response.

590
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: It's a little bit like Moses and the rock. You know,

591
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: the water won't flow. So what I like is not

592
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: to be so direct. You know, somebody told me recently

593
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: that they had gone to an off site at work,

594
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: so it started in a different context, but it's a

595
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: good example. And she organized this whole off side, and

596
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: she took a card from the game from where should

597
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: we Begin? And the card was us somebody who impacted

598
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: your life and doesn't know it. And the whole group

599
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: went through this question and basically people spoke that you

600
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: knew nothing about, people who never talk, and people who

601
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: you thought you knew that came up with stories that

602
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: you had no idea about. Try to do it in

603
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: a more playful way. Try to do it sometimes as

604
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: part of a dinner conversation. Try to do it with

605
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: a question that is less on the nose, you know,

606
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: and that invites you to start from anywhere you want.

607
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: This is an interesting question that you can answer at

608
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: so many levels of debt. There many of those. If

609
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: you just say, tell me about your past. No, you know,

610
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: you saw this movie and you saw what happened. There

611
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: is like anything of that that is familiar to you,

612
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: and you tell your story. You need to create a context. Yes,

613
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: for many people, digging deep into the past is traumatizing, aversive, scary, uninteresting,

614
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: you know, or they don't have the vocabulary for it.

615
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: It's the other thing. So that's why people have used

616
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: the arts, books, movies, plays, songs, poetry. They speak our

617
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: human experience with and we only have to say that

618
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 2: that's my thing. So sometimes I say to people, you know,

619
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 2: how about you find some songs that express the stuff

620
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: that you don't know how to talk about. And that's

621
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: a much lighter lift than tell me about your past.

622
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: You know, a character that represents the parent that you

623
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: grew up with, and you go and find into a

624
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: series a television series one of these characters, they've all

625
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: been written about, use other mediums, other vocabularies to open

626
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: up stuff that people don't necessarily want to be in

627
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: therapy with their partner.

628
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. That's such great advice, and I

629
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: can agree more. I always say, everyone is listening to me.

630
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: I always say to them like, please don't force my

631
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: book onto your partner, Like, please don't like you may

632
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: love my books. Yeah, please don't do that. And I

633
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: always say to people like, it's about speaking the language

634
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: that your partner connects to. And that's what you're saying.

635
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: The language could be music, the language could be art,

636
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: the language can make movies. And I always talk about

637
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I love having my podcast

638
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: is because I get to speak to so many different

639
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: people from so many different from backgrounds, so many different

640
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: walks of life, talking about similar things. You read a

641
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: book a day, yeah, exactly. And what I find is

642
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: someone may relate to athletes more so. If an athlete

643
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: is opening up about their mental health and their vulnerability

644
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: or a challenge they have with the parent, your partner

645
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: may respond to that more than they would a coach,

646
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: a therapist, a psychologist or one of your partners may

647
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: respond to academics and scientists more than they would agree

648
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: to a guide, and it doesn't matter how they open up.

649
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: And so I love that you said that. I love

650
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: that you said sometimes we're just trying the same strategy

651
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: for too long, and you know, like you said, on

652
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 1: the nose, we kind of approach it in a very

653
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,959
Speaker 1: barrier yeah, literary.

654
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: Way, like tell me about you know you're doing this,

655
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: what happened to you before? You know, like a cause

656
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: and effect, you know, play with it.

657
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're trying to be the therapist and you can't.

658
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: I think plays a good thing. I think movement is

659
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: important too. Many people talk much more easily when they're walking,

660
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: when they're hiking, when they're you know, on a ski lift.

661
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 2: Don't just sit and try to do face to face.

662
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: There's a reason that fishing is so good. Yeah, because

663
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: you do parallel play. Everybody is looking forward, nobody has

664
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: to lock eyes, and it allows me to think out

665
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: loud and to answer a question here and there. The

666
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: other thing is sometimes the question comes later. Often there's

667
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 2: one person that's much more articulate about some of these

668
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: things than another. So find other mediums of the vocabularies

669
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: and other settings start with that.

670
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite dates that

671
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: me and my wife went on very early on was

672
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: this activity in England called go ape, And what it

673
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: is is it's it's like a ropes course that's high

674
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: up in the air, so it's like eighty feet or

675
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: whatever up above in the air, and you've got all

676
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: these different activities and things, so you're like swinging, You're

677
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: like trying to walk on these steps. It's challenging, but

678
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: it's fun. And I remember having so much fun because

679
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: there were activities that she found easy and I found hard,

680
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: and activities that I found easy and she found hard,

681
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: and we could help each other, we could talk while

682
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: we were doing it. There was a sense of support.

683
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: And I think what you're saying is so true that

684
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: I find that doing activities where we're both novices are

685
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: really fun because when we're both getting a chance to

686
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: see a new, fresh, unseen side of each other, we

687
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: really get to play and really get to understand if

688
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: I'm in a position of strength, if I know a

689
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: sport really well and she's never done it, then I'm

690
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: not really learning anything new. I'm kind of just being

691
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: there and trying to be the teacher and same vice versa.

692
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: But if we both have no clue about something like

693
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: me and my wife took a surfing lesson for the

694
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: first time in our life, like a couple of years

695
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: ago when we went to Hawaii. We both never served

696
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: in our life. You know, we're both from London and

697
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: that wasn't accessible there and we went on a first

698
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 1: of a lesson and it was just hilarious. It was fun,

699
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: it was silly. We were both learning about how much

700
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: tolerance we both had and there was humor coming in

701
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 1: and what skill set we had. And you're so right

702
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: that adding movement to being together, especially I find in

703
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: ways where you're not familiar, provides a real opportunity to

704
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: see someone vulnerably.

705
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: So you added more than just movement. You added risk

706
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: and you added playfulness. There's a beautiful book by Eli

707
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: Finkl called The All or Nothing Marriage, and he talks

708
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: about really what creates a sense of a liveness in relationships,

709
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: and one of the things he highlights is the importance

710
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 2: of doing new things, not just doing things that you

711
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: both enjoyed, that you're comfortable with. That's good, but that

712
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 2: breeds friendship, whereas when you do new things that also

713
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: involve unknown mystery, risk, curiosity, that's where you actually bring

714
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 2: in excitement and in my language, also desire.

715
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: Hmm. I love that. Yeah, that's beautiful. That makes complete sense,

716
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: and I love those words. Those words we don't often

717
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: use around relationships, risk mystery like it. Yeah, no, no,

718
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: I know, but you just don't hear them, not enough.

719
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: You don't hear them enough at all. Around relationships. You

720
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: always feel mystery with something you had on date one,

721
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: or when you saw that person from across the room,

722
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: right like, that's when the mystery was and there isn't

723
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: any But I can't agree with you more that.

724
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 2: But that's because people prefer sometimes to create an illusion

725
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: of familiarity, as if I know you, like you're the

726
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: inside of my pocket. Yeah yeah, yeah, until you do

727
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: something I absolutely did not expect you to do, and

728
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: then suddenly I realized, and I say, I thought I

729
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: knew you. The real beauty is to know that whoever

730
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 2: is next to you, who you think is already so

731
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 2: familiar and so known, is actually still somewhat mysterious, somewhat elusive.

732
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: And that's where you maintain your curiosity next to the

733
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: person that is with you. You know, faced with the unknown,

734
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: you can either react with fear and try to flatten

735
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: it and just ignore all of that and just hold

736
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: on to what's familiar, or you can nurture it, and

737
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 2: then you are actually engaging with the mystery and the

738
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: curiosity that is right in front of you and that

739
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: you know from your spiritual work that is very much

740
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: taken from that notion. How you then, because that allows

741
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: you to sit like this when you're talking with your partner,

742
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: because you're still attentive and curious versus like this.

743
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Let's say someone decides to break up

744
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: or maybe they're broken up with and we can talk

745
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: about both sides of that. If we talk about the

746
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: side of someone's decided to break up with someone for

747
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: their own reasons, and of course, there could be a

748
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: million reasons for breaking up with someone, so it's hard

749
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: to be specific there. But if someone's broken up with

750
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 1: someone but they are having those feelings, as you said,

751
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: the consequences will be you'll still have that grief of

752
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: what could have been. You have the consequences of maybe

753
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: it could have worked, maybe we should have tried there's

754
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: still a feeling of I wish they were still around.

755
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: I used to talk to them every day at seven

756
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: pm at night. I used to on a Friday night.

757
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: We'd always go to this favorite restaurant, whatever it may

758
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: have been. We have these memories. What do people do

759
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: with that feeling? What do you do with that feeling

760
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: of craving?

761
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: You know, you do a lot of different things, but

762
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: it's so interesting. I literally edited a new episode for

763
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: the podcast for Where Should We Begin of a guy

764
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: who leaves his wife who he had been very close

765
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: to for quite a few years as a young child,

766
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: moves in with another woman, is on the verge a

767
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: few years later of marrying that other woman and can't

768
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: do it, and has felt guilt and remorse and regret

769
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: and longing for all those years, and starts to meet

770
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,959
Speaker 2: the mother of his child again, not just as a mother,

771
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: but now they're going on a first date again. And

772
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: it's like I left you and then I came back

773
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: to you. It's an incredible story to see one person

774
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: because that is a question that doesn't have one answer.

775
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 2: But in this case, he couldn't leave her fast enough,

776
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: but he could never leave her fully. And I can't

777
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: tell you today if he's back with her or what.

778
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: But I have a sense that something when he was

779
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: about to marry this other woman held him back that

780
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: he couldn't necessarily put into words, and that made him

781
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: feel like he had to examine himself, which is what

782
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: this whole conversation on where should we begin is about.

783
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: And I've never had that particular version of it, but

784
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: it is the one that most responds to your question.

785
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: But you're gonna have to go listen.

786
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely no, And I recommend everyone going and

787
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: listen to that if that's a question you've been asking yourself.

788
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: I think that heartache that people feel often feels endless.

789
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: As you said, it can just go on and on

790
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: and on forever. People feel like we've always had. You know,

791
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: time will heal all wounds.

792
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: But who instigated the breakup? Is the really changes a lot?

793
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: Or if it was mutual?

794
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: Is it ever mutual?

795
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: Yes? I think that it is often mutual where two

796
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 2: people say we evolved into something else or just didn't

797
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: work or you know, both people may have felt it,

798
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: but one person was able to say, let's do it.

799
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: That makes sense, you know, and the person who is

800
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 2: more afraid of abandonment and rejection and all of that

801
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: is often more the person who may not say it,

802
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean they didn't feel it. Many people

803
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: tell you I didn't have the guts to do it,

804
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: but it's the best thing that happened to me. My

805
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: partner pushed it. I didn't want it then, So between

806
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: what happens in the moment and how people experience the consequence,

807
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: it's not one and the same. The person who may

808
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 2: have pushed it may be the one who has the

809
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: most regret. The person who was more hesitant it may

810
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: be the one who actually is most liberated. Yeah, it's

811
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 2: a much more intricate puzzle.

812
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: And just of course, of course, what are some of

813
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: the phases that you see people go through that can

814
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: give people hope that there is another side to this,

815
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: Because I think when you're in it, the emotion is

816
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be loved again, I'll never find

817
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: someone as good as them again, I can't trust anyone again, right, Like,

818
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: these are the thoughts that people are repeating in their minds.

819
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: What is someoney to understand during that time?

820
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: To know it? Just made me think of another episode

821
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: of this, But this the daughter who describes how one

822
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: day a truck came took all of her father's stuff.

823
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: I mean, then it comes back home. That's a story

824
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: that we hear quite often. And then all the situations

825
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: of betrayal, of infidelity, of falling in love with somebody else,

826
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: or discovering that you partner wants a fundamentally different relationship

827
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: than you. And I think that the situations where you

828
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: are like completely side lined and you realize, wow, the

829
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: first experience you have is that your whole sense of

830
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: reality is shattered. I thought I knew my life and

831
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 2: this has nothing to do with where I thought I

832
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 2: was at. How can this be happening to me? You're

833
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: in a state of confusion, in a state of disbelief,

834
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: and in a state of shock, and in a state

835
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: where you feel like you've been just ejected from your life.

836
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 2: You had value and you have none. That's all part

837
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: of betrayal. It's not just the lying. It's the fact

838
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: that somebody could toss you away like that and that

839
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 2: you think don't matter, and that's what makes you much

840
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: more afraid. Will I ever find someone who can hold me,

841
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: carry care and carry me? You know? And can I

842
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: trust that ever again because I trusted it. Here the

843
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: question is as much about how do I trust again,

844
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: but not just how do I trust somebody else? How

845
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: do I trust my own perception? That's the piece that

846
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 2: when you lose the belief in your ability to know

847
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: that what you believe is what is, then you are

848
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: on such shaky grounds. So it demands a real scaffolding

849
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: and a rebuilding. No, you haven't lost your entire sense

850
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 2: of perception because you have good friends, family, colleagues, mentors.

851
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: There's not just that person, and you need to get

852
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: your sense of value from noticing the other relationships that

853
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: you have. So you need to bring those people into

854
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: your life. Do not isolate at that moment. You need

855
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: the people who see you differently from the one who

856
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: just left you, and those who seek you out, those

857
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: who value your presence, those who think you great. You know,

858
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: and then slowly you often will find that you connect

859
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: better with other people who have experienced a sense of

860
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: betrayal like that. But betrayal is not only in fidelity.

861
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: It can also be in a partnership. It can be

862
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 2: being co founders of something in There are other relationships

863
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: that go through this complete fracture Slowly you begin to say,

864
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 2: it's not one person's harming me or hurting me that

865
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 2: is a decree on who I am and my self worth.

866
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: That person hurt me deeply. I have been hurt and

867
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: I learned from this, and I protect myself a little bit.

868
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: But I don't have to protect myself in such a

869
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 2: way that I don't live, because the biggest victory on

870
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: this kind of hurt is the ability to love again,

871
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: to trust again. You did not take that from me.

872
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 2: That is probably your biggest vengeance is to be happy.

873
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I mean that resonates very very strongly. And

874
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: first of all, can people rebuild trust after experiencing infidelity?

875
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: And what does that process look like for someone and

876
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: how different it is it to what they expected to be.

877
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: The beauty of your questions is that it filled an

878
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 2: entire book of mine because it's actually a big, big topic.

879
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: But if I was to try to summarize it, yes, yes,

880
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: of course people can rebuild trust. I mean that is

881
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: not everybody and not in every situation, but the process

882
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: itself very much is real. And I have met you know,

883
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: I began State of Affair by going to talk to

884
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 2: couples that I had seen five or ten years earlier

885
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: to know whatever happened to these people, because I see

886
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: them in a moment of crisis, and often I don't

887
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: know afterwards. You know, they decided to stay together, they

888
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 2: worked it through, and off they went. So I wanted

889
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: to know what does that relationship actually look like years later?

890
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 2: Who are they? What happened to their bond? You rebuild

891
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: trust through a few major stages. The first one is

892
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: that whoever hurts you, especially if you choose to stay together,

893
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: has the ability to express guilt and remorse for hurting you.

894
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: Even if they don't feel guilty for the affair itself,

895
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: Even if they have hosts of good explanations, good reasons

896
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: that make it understandable, not justifiable, not condonable, but understandable,

897
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 2: they still can experience the guilt and the remorse for

898
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: hurting you. That acknowledgment is fundamental. It's fundamental in an

899
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 2: intimate relationship, in a friendship, or between nations for that matter.

900
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 2: Then it's the ability to basically become what I call

901
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 2: the vigilan of the relationship. It means it's your job

902
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 2: now to say how much you value the relationship and

903
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: to protect the relationship. So in the situation of an affair,

904
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 2: for example, it means that instead of you're asking me

905
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: questions about what I did and me hoping that you

906
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 2: won't ask me because we've already gone through this ten times,

907
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: I ask you, is there something you want to ask me?

908
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: Because if I bring it up, rather than hoping you

909
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 2: won't bring it up, then I'm saying to you, I'm

910
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: owning my thing. I take responsibility. I care about the relationship.

911
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: And most of the time, if we have a good day,

912
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 2: you may say to me, I don't want to talk

913
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: about it. I'm having a good day because I am

914
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 2: reminding us and I'm not letting it be forgotten, and

915
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 2: I'm taking charge. That's the vigilante. I'm the protector of

916
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 2: the relationship. And then number three is to explain, to

917
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: talk between the people, why did you do this? What

918
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: did it mean to you? And then what did it

919
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 2: do to me? The affair always includes both sides. If

920
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 2: you just talk about what it meant for you, you're

921
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: missing a point. If we're just talking about what it

922
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 2: did to me, were missing a point. So the ability

923
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 2: to not just look at the facts what did you do,

924
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: but the meaning of it. Affairs have meaning their stories.

925
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: They tell us something about the person, about the relationship,

926
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: not always bad things for that matter. So what did

927
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 2: it mean to you? And those three stages in the

928
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 2: crisis phase remorse, guilt, acknowledgment. In the inside phase, you

929
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 2: are the vigilante, and together we explore meaning making of

930
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 2: this crisis for us? What are we going to do

931
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: with this? And then phase three is if we do

932
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 2: stay together, what's our vision for who we want to be? No,

933
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 2: we will probably not go back to what we were,

934
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 2: because what we were may have been part of why

935
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: we got to where we are. Who do we want

936
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 2: to be? What does it open up an affair topples

937
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 2: the scorecard in a relationship? So I may have accepted

938
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: all kinds of things because this was the way I

939
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 2: conceived of our relationship. And I was willing to not work,

940
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 2: and I was willing to make more money. I was

941
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: willing to work all the time. I was willing to

942
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: do all the child care. I was willing to do

943
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: none of it. I was willing to take care of

944
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: your ailing mother, of your addicted brother, whatever. I accepted

945
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 2: a lot of things. But now this basically gives me

946
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 2: the opportunity to also say I also have discontent. It's

947
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 2: not just your affair that expresses the discontent. And so

948
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 2: here's the fundamental line. Most of us today in the

949
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 2: West are going to have two or three relationships in

950
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 2: our adult life or marriages. Some of us are going

951
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: to do it with the same person. So sometimes the

952
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 2: affair is the end of the first marriage or the

953
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: first relationship, but it can be the beginning of the

954
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 2: next one with each other. And that's the rebuilding of

955
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: the trust.

956
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: Well said, yeah no, and it's I'm sure that's going

957
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: to give people a lot of hope. But also what

958
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: I love about your work and your books is that

959
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: there's also a process there. There's a structure there, there's

960
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 1: a method there for people to go, oh, okay, that's

961
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: where we're at. That's what I'm struggling with. I think

962
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: one of the biggest thoughts that repeats in people's minds

963
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: when they're broken up with or when they've experienced infidelity

964
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: that I hear from people is jay, I feel like

965
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: I'm not worthy anymore. I feel like I'm not lovable again,

966
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm not desirable.

967
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 2: While they are staying with the person or while they've

968
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 2: broken up both.

969
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: I've heard people say I don't feel desirable because they

970
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: desire someone else, but I still want to be with

971
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: that person, And I don't feel worthy even with that

972
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 1: person now because I'm reminded constantly, as you said, of

973
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: their infidelity, and these thoughts perpetuate. But what I'm hearing

974
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: you say, and I'd love for you to guide us,

975
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: is what I'm hearing you say is well, that's why

976
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: you need to do the meaning making, because you really

977
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: need to understand their story and meaning and yours. Right now,

978
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: you're just focus on yours, and that's always going to

979
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 1: be this negative, repetitive pattern.

980
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: You remind me of a couple I saw, and this

981
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: man had done something that was really egregious in some

982
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: way because he had taken everything that was special to

983
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 2: the relationship and shared it with the other person. But everything, wow,

984
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: their favorite places, restaurants, clothing, I mean, he had left

985
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 2: nothing sacred. That's devaluing, right, And whenever they would drive,

986
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 2: there was a way when they would arrive to a

987
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: place and she would look at him and it was

988
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 2: like there too, And so he would dread it because

989
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 2: he knew he was guilty as charged, and then I

990
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: began to say to him, I want you. Every time

991
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 2: you drive, when there is a place, you say yes,

992
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 2: they're too, without waiting for the question, because you know

993
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: that you have to stand up. But when there is

994
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 2: that you have to stand accountable. But when there is

995
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 2: a place not, you say no they're not before the

996
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: question comes up. That's part of the vigilante, so that

997
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 2: you protect the relationship and you bring back the value.

998
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 2: You say, you know, now go create new places too

999
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: that are new for the two of you, and that

1000
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: you need new cells. You can't just go back and

1001
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 2: try to re enter the spaces that you were in.

1002
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 2: The loss of value gets addressed by having someone who

1003
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: is slowly reclaiming the value. The feeling is true, but

1004
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that because they had desire for someone else,

1005
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: they had none for you. Actually, sometimes they had desire

1006
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 2: for someone else because you had none for them. You know.

1007
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 2: The person who says that to you comes with one

1008
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: particular story, but there's so many stories. You know. Sometimes

1009
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 2: you have a person who was completely uninterested for a

1010
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: decade and then they are upset that their partner was

1011
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 2: interested with somebody else. It's not just you know, I

1012
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 2: was there available for you, and you dumped me for

1013
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 2: someone that you looked at with a bigger, you know,

1014
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 2: founder eyes. So what people experience after the betrayal doesn't

1015
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 2: always tell the story of what happened before. That's why

1016
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 2: the meaning making is so really important. You know, sometimes

1017
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 2: somebody is going to say to the other, you devalued

1018
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 2: me for ten years. You barely paid any attention to me.

1019
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: You were so enruptured in your work, you were so

1020
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 2: busy with your phone, you were so you know. I

1021
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 2: was abandoned long before, you know, And that also needs

1022
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 2: to be put into the story. The story doesn't start

1023
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 2: the moment that you discover something, because there are a

1024
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: lot of moving pieces underneath, and people addressing this with care,

1025
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 2: carefulness and responsibility is the process. It's the hope doesn't

1026
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 2: come from nowhere. It comes because two people say this

1027
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 2: is important. We build something. We've been together five, ten,

1028
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 2: fifteen years, twenty five years. We're not letting this just

1029
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 2: go now. We need to reclaim the value of this

1030
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 2: for both of us.

1031
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely, this idea that we're going to have two to

1032
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: three relationships in our adult life, and they could either

1033
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: be with the same person or of course with two

1034
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: to three different people. And I think this idea of

1035
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: choice and selection has obviously rapidly changed because of technology

1036
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: and apps and the amount of people you can bump into.

1037
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: You know, I looked at studies saying that, you know,

1038
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,720
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago, most people ended up with someone

1039
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: within a five mile radius of where they grew up.

1040
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: We know that that's not the case anymore. People are

1041
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: moving countries for people moving states, people are living in

1042
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: different parts of the world. We both live in different

1043
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: parts of the world than where we grew up. And

1044
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: so when I look at that, one of the biggest

1045
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 1: challenges I find, or that I hear from people is

1046
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 1: because there's so much selection, there's a sense of like,

1047
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling any spark, I'm not feeling any chemistry,

1048
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: I don't feel a connection with this person. I hear

1049
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: that a lot, and well, let's address that. And then

1050
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: the other thing I hear is this idea of like,

1051
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, this guy didn't have as much as the

1052
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: other guy, or you know, and you start comparing it

1053
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: because you can because you're just exposed to so many

1054
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: more people now, and you're almost comparing resumes of people

1055
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: that you've heard about spoken to, seen on a dating app,

1056
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: introduced through your friends. So, this idea of choice and

1057
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: the paradox of choices, it's always been called in studies

1058
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 1: from products to people. Now, you know, we can get

1059
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: stuck at a grocery store wondering which product to buy,

1060
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: but in dating it feels like you can keep going

1061
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: because you can just keep swiping. Let's talk about both

1062
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: of those, the idea of how do you choose, how

1063
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: do you select? And when you're choosing and selecting, how

1064
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: do you not feel that sense of there could be more?

1065
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: I said choice comes with loss. I'm actually very excited

1066
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 2: about this question because I'm very interested in this at

1067
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 2: this moment right, I'm interested in the intersection of technology

1068
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 2: and relationships and mental health. And I've just done a

1069
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 2: bunch of episodes with people in the dating scene because

1070
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 2: of exactly this. So we have a frenzy of romantic

1071
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 2: consumerism in which, in search of the perfect, people are

1072
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: no longer happy with the good. We have people looking

1073
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 2: for a soulmate on an app. That's an interesting combination

1074
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: between spirituality and capitalism, and how do we even think

1075
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 2: that a partner is a soulmate? Soulmate used to be God,

1076
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: you know, and now we want transcendence and missy and

1077
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 2: wholeness and all of it an ecstasy almost with the person,

1078
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 2: you know. The stuff that people looked for in the

1079
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: realm of the divine they now want with their person.

1080
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 2: And at the same time they're doing it with a checklist,

1081
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 2: so that many dating experiences are like job interviews. So

1082
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 2: all of that combined, right, I do think we have

1083
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 2: more choice, but we also have a lot more uncertainty

1084
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 2: and a lot more self doubt, and we are a

1085
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 2: lot less capable of handling uncertainty because we live with

1086
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: a host of predictive technologies that are all meant to

1087
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 2: take away uncertainties, obstacle friction, you know, rough edges. So

1088
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 2: we don't rub anymore with stuff that helps us deal

1089
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 2: with uncertainty unknown and engage with happenstance.

1090
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1091
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 2: Happenstance means you stand in line and you start talking

1092
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: to the person that is behind you in line, and

1093
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 2: after that you go and have a drink with that person,

1094
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: and after that you and yourself exchanging numbers and a

1095
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 2: story starts spontaneously, unprompted. So I think that the commonification

1096
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 2: that people feel is real. It's not just because of

1097
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 2: your childhood. It's part of society at this point. There

1098
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 2: is a way in which we talk about ourselves as products,

1099
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 2: and there is a way in which we talk about

1100
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 2: ourselves online with followers as if we are religious leaders,

1101
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 2: you and me for that matter. So the first thing,

1102
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 2: don't go in thinking that you have to find somebody

1103
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 2: at the first meeting. This is not the way it works.

1104
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 2: And that you go down your list and you know,

1105
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 2: and then if the first thing that goes wrong, you

1106
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 2: go ick, and you just go on to the next.

1107
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 2: You know what I'm doing now when I address this

1108
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 2: very question is I show a very famous clip that's

1109
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 2: classic in psychology called the still face experiment. Have you

1110
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: ever seen it? Minute clip on YouTube. In the still

1111
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 2: face experiment, the mother is playing with the little one,

1112
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 2: and the little one is cooing and showing her things,

1113
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,439
Speaker 2: and you know, and then at some point the mother

1114
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 2: goes still face, and the kid continues to point and

1115
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 2: continues to call her attention, and within thirty seconds or

1116
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 2: less of the mother not responding, the kid goes into

1117
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 2: a panic, A frenzy loses its body. Composer starts shrieking

1118
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: and basically you understand that we are relational people from

1119
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 2: and what this clip shows me is that this is

1120
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:40,439
Speaker 2: what goes on in ghosting, in bread crumbing, in checklisting.

1121
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 2: This is what is the experience of many people at

1122
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 2: this moment. You go, you have a hedonic treadmill. You

1123
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: meet someone, you think these possibilities, and then they disappear

1124
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 2: on you and you're left like this, and then you

1125
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 2: unravel and you do this sometimes twenty times a day

1126
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: with the same person. This is kind of the experience

1127
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 2: of modern days. I haven't seen many people say I

1128
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: love it. You know, maybe sixty five percent of meeting

1129
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 2: people meet on an app, but I don't see people

1130
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 2: saying I love it. Actually, it's the number one complaint

1131
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: of people dating at this moment. So try to bring

1132
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 2: back something that is more humane. You meet somebody or

1133
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 2: a friend, introduce you to someone. Don't go and meet

1134
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:22,959
Speaker 2: with them alone in a bar, to have a face

1135
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 2: to face conversation, To go down and interview. Do an

1136
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 2: activity it's exactly what you were talking about. Do something

1137
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 2: you enjoy doing. Bring that person to a thing that

1138
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 2: you're doing with friends. You want to get to know somebody,

1139
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 2: put them in a social situation. See how they interact

1140
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 2: with people, how they act, how they respond, how they

1141
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: engage with people. If you think that you're going to

1142
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: have epiphanies with clarity like an app, forget it. You

1143
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 2: will be exhausted and you won't meet anybody.

1144
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: Really well said, and I could agree with you more.

1145
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to push people away. I'm like, get

1146
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: out of your inbox and your DM and your messages

1147
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: and get out there. There's no way talking to someone

1148
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: over a couple of messages is going to help you

1149
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: figure anything out. But you've probably spoken to so many

1150
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: people who've had chemistry, lost chemistry, never had it. I

1151
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people today that I hear

1152
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:15,959
Speaker 1: from their meeting people, but they're like, there's no spot,

1153
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: there's no chemistry, I'm not feeling anything. What should we

1154
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 1: want to feel, if there is anything we should want

1155
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: to feel at all with someone? And what is the

1156
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: difference between chemistry compatibility?

1157
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 2: And First of all, I think we need to differentiate.

1158
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 2: Are you looking for chemistry for a love story or

1159
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 2: are you looking for chemistry for a life story. Lots

1160
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 2: of people you can have chemistry with, have a fantastic

1161
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 2: night with, for that matter or more, but that's not

1162
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 2: the person you necessarily want to make a life with.

1163
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: The project will determine the nature of the chemistry. That's

1164
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: number one. So number two is curiosity, a desire for more,

1165
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 2: want to you know, it's like you read a book,

1166
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 2: a person is a book, right, or you can use

1167
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 2: other metaphors. Do you drag yourself through the next page?

1168
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: You know, I should you know, let me see where

1169
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 2: it goes, or like you can't wait? You know it's

1170
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 2: a page turner, if you know, if the experience of

1171
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: the page turner with the person, you want more. You

1172
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 2: want to have the next conversation. You want to ask

1173
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 2: them that kind of question. You want to go do

1174
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 2: something else with them. You're on a good track. You know,

1175
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 2: this notion of this instant combustion of emotion that fills

1176
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 2: you up. You want a religious experience. That is not

1177
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 2: always the case. Sometimes people fall like that, you know,

1178
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 2: as we say, for but the majority of the time,

1179
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 2: things grow, you know, they grow through the interaction. You

1180
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 2: get a good text, you like what you just read.

1181
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 2: You find yourself wanting to answer a sentence and you've

1182
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: just answered two pages. You know you wanted to go

1183
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:57,919
Speaker 2: and meet them for half an hour, and three hours

1184
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 2: later you're still sitting on the floor in the hallway

1185
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 2: having an entralling conversation. That's the stuff that reads the feelings.

1186
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 2: If you sit there like this and think that's some

1187
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 2: you know, diosx Machini is going to fall from the heavens,

1188
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 2: you're off. You know, it's this false certainty that is

1189
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 2: not the majority of people. And there's many ways in

1190
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 2: Some people start hot and then they become lukewarm, and

1191
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 2: some people start lookwarm and the heat grows over time.

1192
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 2: There isn't one narrative, this notion that Hollywood has sold

1193
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 2: us that it's like, oh and I can't wait and

1194
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 2: I just have this. I fall for you on the spot.

1195
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 2: That's one plot. There are many plots. And if you

1196
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 2: constrain yourself in thinking this is how I should be

1197
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 2: feeling and I'm not feeling it, then you you are

1198
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 2: limiting your options.

1199
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing that has really come up a lot

1200
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: with people have spoken to recently is this idea of

1201
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 1: they find someone who makes them feel safe, who they

1202
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 1: feel cared for by, and the person seems to be

1203
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 1: they consider them to be good hearted. That person makes.

1204
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the butt.

1205
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, you already know, you already know this person

1206
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: in their words makes sense, but they feel like they're

1207
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: settling because there must be someone else who has all

1208
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: of that plus the other three things that they want.

1209
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 2: You are a perfect candidate for romantic consumerism. If you

1210
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 2: think this way you've been had, you've been literally you've

1211
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 2: become a good person that I can, we can. You know,

1212
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 2: your mind is set for somebody telling you this is

1213
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 2: the product you need, the perfect fit, and then you

1214
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 2: are going to be the perfect patient who comes in

1215
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 2: thinking I thought my person was like this and this

1216
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 2: and this, and they're not the deal that I bargained for.

1217
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 2: It's not what was written on paper. You can lead

1218
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 2: the language. It's like business. You know, capitalism enters romantic life.

1219
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 2: It's really crippling to people. You know, the more you

1220
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: have this notion of perfection, the higher you can fall.

1221
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 2: You know, are you perfect? Are you that great? Do

1222
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 2: you think that everybody falls?

1223
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 1: Like?

1224
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 2: What is this notion? So then there is this idea

1225
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 2: that there is the sense and settling with the passion

1226
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 2: you know, and you should have that passion. Passion is

1227
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 2: a wonderful feeling to have. It's maybe not the best

1228
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:33,439
Speaker 2: thing to decide if you're want to have a life

1229
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 2: with somebody on it's not the most important ingredient for that.

1230
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 1: You know.

1231
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean you don't want excitement, intensity, you know, draw,

1232
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 2: But this idea that there is reason and passion, that's

1233
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 2: a very old divide. That's the that's the divide of

1234
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, the rationalists and the romantics.

1235
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: And why do you say that? Why do you think that?

1236
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: And I get that you're giving a balanced approach that

1237
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 1: to enlighten and what you've seen you compare the love

1238
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: story in the life story? Yes, why do you think?

1239
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 1: It almost feels like what we've been sold is for

1240
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 1: the love story. But the life story requires a different set.

1241
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 2: Of skills, yes, skills and values and compatibilities. Because there

1242
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,840
Speaker 2: are many more people that you can love than people

1243
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 2: you can make a life with. I can have many

1244
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 2: love stories with people that I meet on a trip

1245
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 2: that I you know, with whom I have a beautiful

1246
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:29,600
Speaker 2: short story with. But would that be the person with

1247
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 2: whom I can do we share anything else in terms

1248
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 2: of how we see life, with everything else that life brings,

1249
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 2: that's a different thing that doesn't mean you don't want

1250
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,839
Speaker 2: love in the life story. But many more love stories

1251
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 2: can exist without life story. Not that many life stories

1252
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 2: will exist without a love story. You know. You can

1253
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 2: call it an adventure, you can call it, you know,

1254
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:57,599
Speaker 2: and it is what people used to do when they

1255
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 2: did before. They're looking for someone with whom they want

1256
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 2: to have a more committed relationship. It's very important that

1257
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 2: we see that a lot of the things that we're

1258
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 2: looking for are the things that make for a real

1259
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 2: love story, the things we want to feel, The things

1260
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 2: that are on the checklist are the things that we've

1261
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:21,640
Speaker 2: kind of created an impossible situation. It's really so you

1262
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: don't settle. If you see that language says what I

1263
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 2: am fantastic, you know, or I am not fantastic, but

1264
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to find someone fantastic who's going to make

1265
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 2: me rise. And it is a kind of use of

1266
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 2: people that really is creating such a psychological paucity. It's

1267
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 2: really eroding people's sense of self esteem and sense of

1268
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 2: self worth. It's not good. Where are you at in

1269
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: new life at twenty three? You're going to think differently

1270
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 2: from thirty three. You know, at thirty three, it's likely

1271
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 2: that you're going to think of a few people that

1272
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 2: you said no to are twenty three that were perfectly

1273
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 2: fine and you kind of didn't because you kept thinking,

1274
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 2: I can do better, and this I can do better

1275
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 2: is eating people up because it creates constant restlessness in relationships,

1276
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 2: in life, in pursuit and then they need to go

1277
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 2: and meditate to get calmer, to be less restless. But

1278
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:27,879
Speaker 2: the restlessness is this constant pursuit of more, better, younger,

1279
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 2: and therefore living with the feeling not enough. I don't

1280
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 2: have enough, I'm not enough, and that's the crisis that

1281
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 2: then follows around self worth. Because you constantly want more,

1282
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 2: you end up constantly feeling not enough.

1283
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 1: And someone else will make me feel more than enough.

1284
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 2: Yes, the evaluation. The meaning of finding the love partner

1285
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 2: today is that it will end my sense of constant

1286
01:10:55,600 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 2: self evaluation. I'm evaluating myself. I'm presenting myself, I'm selling myself.

1287
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 2: I'm trying to compete on the market. It's like language,

1288
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 2: you know, the romantic language is about the market, you know,

1289
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:12,879
Speaker 2: the meat. And then when I find you, my beloved,

1290
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 2: I will finally stop the process of evaluation. This is

1291
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,640
Speaker 2: a thing from if I lose a great sociologist that

1292
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:21,600
Speaker 2: studies love relationships.

1293
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: That's such a beautiful language as well, that you want

1294
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 1: to end your process of evaluation when actually a life

1295
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 1: story is an evolution of self evaluation. It's only going

1296
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 1: to come with more. Do you see there being inherent

1297
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 1: value in long term committed relationships or is that also

1298
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 1: a construct of society?

1299
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 2: I see. Look, I work very cross culturally, right, so

1300
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 2: I don't think the answer is the same if I

1301
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 2: am in Belgium, in India, in Turkey. But I think

1302
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 2: there is a lot of value in a long term relationship.

1303
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 2: But the long term relationship has doubled in lifespan. So

1304
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,599
Speaker 2: one hundred years ago we lived half of now, so

1305
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 2: the long term keeps on getting longer. But there is

1306
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:11,679
Speaker 2: also tremendous value in having had the possibility of finally

1307
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 2: being able to end this and to start a new,

1308
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 2: or to never have had it and to start a

1309
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 2: new People who marry for the first time in their sixties,

1310
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,600
Speaker 2: or people who realized that they had a beautiful relationship

1311
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: for certain things and that now they needed something else.

1312
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 2: The marriage was an institution that you couldn't leave. You

1313
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 2: got in, and you got in for life, and if

1314
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 2: you didn't like it, you could hope for an early

1315
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 2: death of your partner, you know, hopeful, because that was

1316
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 2: the only way out. And especially for women, I mean,

1317
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,080
Speaker 2: marriage has not meant the same for men and women.

1318
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 2: Marriage for same sex people is very recent. So the

1319
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 2: question has a lot of different pieces. I think that

1320
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:55,640
Speaker 2: there is something very beautiful in a long novel, and

1321
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 2: I think that there are beautiful short stories. There isn't

1322
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 2: a one size fits all at this moment. And the

1323
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 2: interesting thing is we've been creative about a lot of things.

1324
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 2: We disrupt. We are creative about even family life. We

1325
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 2: have blended families, same sex families, single parent families, Accordian families.

1326
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 2: But when it comes to romantic couples, romanticism, the exclusiveness,

1327
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 2: the monogamous long term model has been the dominant model

1328
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 2: for two centuries and is quite strong. So I think

1329
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:32,840
Speaker 2: we can be more creative and in rethinking relational arrangements

1330
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 2: and relationship arrangements that are more diverse and that bring

1331
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 2: in other people as in the community, because what is

1332
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 2: happening in the long term relationship of today is not

1333
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 2: only that it is much longer, but it is also

1334
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 2: much more isolated longer and lonier, one person to give

1335
01:13:53,160 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 2: us what normally an entire village should provide, and that

1336
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 2: is crippling. The relationships under so much weight and so

1337
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 2: many expectations. So those who do it well do it

1338
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:08,559
Speaker 2: better than the relationships of the past, as I think,

1339
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:11,720
Speaker 2: but the majority of them don't manage to climb the olympus.

1340
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I you know, I often think about that

1341
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,120
Speaker 1: because I think what we were talking about earlier, when

1342
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: I first met my wife, I'd definitely say that there

1343
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:27,520
Speaker 1: was so much of the romanticism of the perfect relationship.

1344
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 1: And I often talk about in my book as well,

1345
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 1: about how I proposed to my wife, which was basically

1346
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:36,440
Speaker 1: based off of Instagram and YouTube videos, how I invented

1347
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 1: a proposal that was so not personal or not she

1348
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 1: liked it. Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you what happened. So,

1349
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 1: and if anyone's heard this story before, I apologize, but

1350
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:48,760
Speaker 1: I want to ask them. I don't know the context. Yeah,

1351
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 1: so we've been together, I think at that point for like,

1352
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,479
Speaker 1: maybe I proposed off like a couple of years and

1353
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:58,759
Speaker 1: so we've been together. I decided I was going to propose.

1354
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,719
Speaker 1: We were walking down bank of the River Thames in London.

1355
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:05,479
Speaker 1: I had an a cappella group jumped out and sing

1356
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: Bruno Mars, will you marry me? Like marry you to her.

1357
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: They gave her a bouquet of flowers. They performed this

1358
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:13,480
Speaker 1: amazing number. I got down on one knee I proposed.

1359
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 1: We both shed a tear. She said yes. We then

1360
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 1: had dinner on the side of the Thames where I

1361
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:22,480
Speaker 1: had the kind of finagle a table from a restaurant.

1362
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 1: I had food that was brought in, but it was

1363
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:28,400
Speaker 1: cold because everything had gone wrong on the timing, so

1364
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: we ate cold food, which was we didn't mind. My

1365
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 1: wife is amazing, so she didn't care. But I was

1366
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: looking at that going hmm. And then we walked around

1367
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 1: the corner and we ended up on a white horse

1368
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:40,639
Speaker 1: drawn carriage that I'd booked that took us around London

1369
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 1: on this beautiful carriage and it was a beautiful trip.

1370
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:45,040
Speaker 1: And then we got on the train to go back

1371
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: to her parents. And we got home to her parents.

1372
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 1: Her parents opened the door and they said, what happened

1373
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 1: to you? To her? She had hives all over her

1374
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 1: face because that was the day I discovered that she

1375
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 1: was allergic to horses and I didn't know that, and

1376
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 1: she didn't know that. And I've always looked back and

1377
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 1: reflected that story because my wife said, yes, she's never

1378
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 1: complained about it, she was happy with it. But when

1379
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:08,640
Speaker 1: I really look at it, and as I've got to

1380
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 1: know her more and more every year, and like you said,

1381
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:13,599
Speaker 1: I feel like I get to know more of her

1382
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:16,599
Speaker 1: new things and old things every year. We've been together

1383
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 1: for ten years now, and I still feel like every

1384
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 1: day I'm discovering something new about her. I realized that

1385
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:28,080
Speaker 1: that was the most impersonal show of love ever. It

1386
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:30,720
Speaker 1: wasn't the song wasn't specific to her, the horse drawn

1387
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:34,840
Speaker 1: carriage wasn't specific to her. The food was the only

1388
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:36,639
Speaker 1: thing my wife would care about because she's a big

1389
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,880
Speaker 1: foodie and that's her world. And it was cold. And

1390
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:41,679
Speaker 1: I look back at that event and go, I'm lucky.

1391
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 1: She said yes. But actually the hives were a reminder

1392
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 1: to me of how little I knew my wife at

1393
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 1: that time.

1394
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:50,840
Speaker 2: Or how eager you were to impress.

1395
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 1: How ego exactly, how I was a complete ego. I

1396
01:16:53,960 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 1: was twenty maybe six, twenty seven years and what a

1397
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: show it was, as opposed.

1398
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 2: To do you come from traditional families.

1399
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 1: I would say we come from yeah, like I would

1400
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: say we come from more traditional families. Yes, yeah, definitely,

1401
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:13,520
Speaker 1: they're modern thinking, but generally traditional overall in the world.

1402
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 2: And where they arranged marriages or where they.

1403
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 1: My mom and dad were, and pretty much hers was

1404
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, pretty much her parents were as well.

1405
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 2: So that's a major transition. So when you ask me

1406
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 2: about long term relationships, I think people who are in

1407
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 2: an arranged marriage system answer that question very differently, yes,

1408
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 2: than people who start with the romantic You know what

1409
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:36,439
Speaker 2: the research says, right.

1410
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 1: What does I've seen? Bits? But please clarify.

1411
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:42,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's Dan Arieli's research that people who

1412
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 2: start with romantic and falling in love and passion are

1413
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:50,480
Speaker 2: much more likely to then experience dissatisfaction in the relationship

1414
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 2: than the majority of people who start in an arranged situation,

1415
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 2: which is much more rational. Actually, their satisfaction rises as

1416
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 2: they get to know each other and develop the fairness

1417
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 2: and the relationship. I think this is true if the

1418
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 2: relationship is good.

1419
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's good for those for whom it.

1420
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 2: Was really not a good.

1421
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 1: Match, it must be horrific. Yeah. And I think the

1422
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 1: reason why I was sharing that story was because I

1423
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:16,360
Speaker 1: think what I've realized and you were mentioning this earlier,

1424
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 1: is that I feel like I found the person who

1425
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 1: has helped me continue self evaluation in a way that

1426
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 1: I would have avoided with someone else, or that I

1427
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 1: would have tried to avoid if I would have had

1428
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 1: multiple love stories, whereas this life story that I have

1429
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:46,520
Speaker 1: with my wife currently is just the most purifying and cleansing,

1430
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 1: detoxifying process internally, but in the most fun, loving and

1431
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: caring way. And I look at that and I think

1432
01:18:56,160 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 1: about that often where I think to myself, I would

1433
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:04,719
Speaker 1: have had to learn these lessons with anyone, but maybe

1434
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 1: someone else may not be able to challenge me as

1435
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: much as my wife does with the lack of criticism

1436
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 1: and complain and judgment in a safe space with humor,

1437
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:19,519
Speaker 1: which actually makes it accessible to me. And it's one

1438
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:22,280
Speaker 1: of these really interesting reflections I wanted to share with

1439
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 1: you to hear your thoughts on that, because I don't

1440
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:27,040
Speaker 1: think I would. There are so many skills today that

1441
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:29,720
Speaker 1: I have only because I married this particular person. There

1442
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 1: are so many emotional parts of myself that I've been

1443
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: able to discover because of this person. There have been

1444
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 1: so many.

1445
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:38,840
Speaker 2: You know, what you're telling me in some way is

1446
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 2: you didn't succeed in impressing her.

1447
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:44,639
Speaker 1: I've never succeeded in impressing my wife.

1448
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 2: And that's her power, you know. I mean not that

1449
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 2: you're not impressive to her, that she doesn't appreciate and admire,

1450
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 2: but you didn't succeed till this day, and therefore her

1451
01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 2: opinion matters, and therefore she can keep you on your toe,

1452
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:02,559
Speaker 2: and therefore she doesn't let you sit on your laurels

1453
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:05,719
Speaker 2: and get away with stuff, and therefore she can see

1454
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:07,679
Speaker 2: you in a more humble way when you come home

1455
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:11,519
Speaker 2: from having done forty stage events after another where you get,

1456
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, clapped the whole time, and you kind of

1457
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 2: lose a sense of you know, proportions, and that is

1458
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 2: an extremely I think that you're very lucky, and not

1459
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 2: just lucky because you found her, but also because you

1460
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 2: knew that you did need someone who challenges you and

1461
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,240
Speaker 2: who can hold hers to you, but do it in

1462
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:37,080
Speaker 2: a way that doesn't feel authoritarian or humiliating or ball busting,

1463
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 2: et cetera. And so it creates the right friction. She cares,

1464
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 2: and she can criticize. She loves and she can challenge

1465
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 2: you know, it's both and and holding those tensions in

1466
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:56,200
Speaker 2: a relationship is in my mind, very important and very

1467
01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:00,600
Speaker 2: gives a lot of strength and energy to a relationship.

1468
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:03,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, please, no, No, that's it.

1469
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:05,800
Speaker 2: I think that it's your self awareness of it that

1470
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 2: is really good. It's like, if you had somebody who

1471
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 2: just looks like that, it would have been a problem.

1472
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 2: If you had somebody who just did that, it would

1473
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 2: have been a problem. But you knew that you needed that.

1474
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:17,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't think I knew it before we

1475
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 1: started having that experience, but it it just became really

1476
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 1: evident to me that she loves me for who I am,

1477
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 1: not what I do and what I achieve and how

1478
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,360
Speaker 1: I try to impress, for example. And I think that's

1479
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:34,599
Speaker 1: a great reminder for me to love myself for who

1480
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 1: I am and not love myself or what I achieve

1481
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 1: or what I do or what I create. And I

1482
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:43,080
Speaker 1: think that that is a really I'm like, that's the

1483
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: very important Yeah, yeah, to have some Yeah. And it's

1484
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:49,559
Speaker 1: also how you perceive it. I think what you're saying

1485
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:51,600
Speaker 1: is true. Like I've talked about it with people, I

1486
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:54,320
Speaker 1: could easily perceive it, and people could perceive it and say, Jay,

1487
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:57,679
Speaker 1: you're just a pushover. Jay, You're just you know, making

1488
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:00,599
Speaker 1: it up. You're making sense of something and it's treatment

1489
01:22:00,680 --> 01:22:02,599
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I'm like, well, no, because I can

1490
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:05,439
Speaker 1: see that it's done from love and care and it's humor.

1491
01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 1: As you said, it's done from such a special loving

1492
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: place that I feel that I know it's a knowingness

1493
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:16,800
Speaker 1: that it is liberating and it is wonderful. But it's

1494
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:19,519
Speaker 1: interesting because I think a lot of people may have

1495
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:21,320
Speaker 1: that experience, but they don't want to be humbled, they

1496
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 1: don't want to access that point. And I'm fortunate that

1497
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 1: my Monk training kicks in there and allows for that

1498
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:32,799
Speaker 1: vulnerability and self reflection and not thinking I'm perfect, Whereas

1499
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's we're scared to do that because

1500
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 1: we almost want our partner to make us feel perfect.

1501
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:44,479
Speaker 2: No, I think that this thing of perfection is I

1502
01:22:44,479 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 2: think we want our partners to recognize us and accept

1503
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:49,440
Speaker 2: us perfection.

1504
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: But it comes in the form of, at least in

1505
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 1: the beginning, demanding adoration and.

1506
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the beginning is only with the beginning. It's

1507
01:22:56,720 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 2: one phase of a relationship. I think my friend Ry

1508
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 2: Reel has this beautiful definition. Self esteem or self worth

1509
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:13,839
Speaker 2: or self confidence is seeing ourselves as flawed, imperfect people

1510
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 2: and still hold ourselves in high regard. If you actually

1511
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 2: need to see yourself as perfect, you lack the confidence.

1512
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:27,880
Speaker 2: The confidence is the ability to make mistakes and not

1513
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,559
Speaker 2: to not sleep over it for three weeks because you

1514
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,880
Speaker 2: feel such shame and such you know, intense attack on

1515
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:37,800
Speaker 2: your identity. But I have a question for you that

1516
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 2: from what you've just said, do you feel that these days,

1517
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 2: on both sides, on all sides of the spectrum of

1518
01:23:45,280 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 2: the gender spectrum, that people are so enraptured with the

1519
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 2: notion of identity and holding on to the self that

1520
01:23:55,120 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 2: they find accepting influence from another person an instant their

1521
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 2: identity like pushover. Pushover is like, you know, it's a

1522
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:09,559
Speaker 2: power dynamic instantly when you use that word. You know,

1523
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:12,240
Speaker 2: if you accept what your wife says, what kind of

1524
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:15,639
Speaker 2: a man? Are you? Right? You're just a pushover. That's

1525
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:17,880
Speaker 2: more in the masculine version that women have it in

1526
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:21,160
Speaker 2: the but it is along the whole spectrum. Something about

1527
01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 2: the way we are so busy protecting our egos is

1528
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:29,839
Speaker 2: making everything that involves letting someone else actually have influence

1529
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:31,760
Speaker 2: over us, which is part of what being in a

1530
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:33,479
Speaker 2: relationship is about.

1531
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:38,479
Speaker 1: As an attack, yeah, I mean, I'd love to discuss

1532
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 1: this with you and my reflection from what you were saying,

1533
01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:44,559
Speaker 1: and I was nodding along because there's so much of

1534
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 1: it that I agree with. I think that what I

1535
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:54,000
Speaker 1: see is most of us struggle to know ourselves when

1536
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 1: we get into a relationship. So I think i'd propose

1537
01:24:57,640 --> 01:24:59,760
Speaker 1: that I don't think most people have a lot of

1538
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:03,360
Speaker 1: self awareness when they get into a romantic relationship, so

1539
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:07,320
Speaker 1: they don't actually have a conscious sense of self identity.

1540
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: We have a subconscious sense of self identity in the

1541
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,599
Speaker 1: sense of what our parents taught us and what family

1542
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:14,600
Speaker 1: and meedia. We have all this mix of stuff, but

1543
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:16,840
Speaker 1: we wouldn't if I ask someone to lay out their

1544
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:18,760
Speaker 1: top ten values, they wouldn't be able to do that

1545
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:23,559
Speaker 1: because they'd be like, I'm not sure, And what ends

1546
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:26,599
Speaker 1: up happening. I think in that scenario is you adopt

1547
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 1: the values of the other person, and then at some

1548
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 1: point you go, wait a minute, I've just been doing

1549
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,720
Speaker 1: what you want and you think that person made you

1550
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:37,599
Speaker 1: adopt their values, but actually you just didn't know yours

1551
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:40,600
Speaker 1: and so I think you see that happen in some relationships.

1552
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 1: In other relationships, I think what you're saying is true.

1553
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:50,479
Speaker 1: People are so definitive about their own self identity that

1554
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 1: they go into a relationship going, I'm not going to

1555
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 1: get influence at all by this person. And I think

1556
01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:58,679
Speaker 1: that also happens because we're getting into long term relationship

1557
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 1: later in life. If you're going into relationship later in life,

1558
01:26:01,800 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 1: chances are you actually have you know who you are

1559
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:06,360
Speaker 1: and what you want to do and what you're building

1560
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 1: and what's important to you. When you're younger, you're less

1561
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 1: self aware. When you're older, hopefully you're somewhat more self aware,

1562
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 1: and so you're more concrete in your ideology.

1563
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:15,639
Speaker 2: But the opposite could be equally.

1564
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:16,639
Speaker 1: It could be equally.

1565
01:26:16,640 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 2: When you're young, you think you know everything and you're

1566
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:21,680
Speaker 2: certain about stuff you have no certainty about totally, and

1567
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 2: when you get older, you actually become more flexible because

1568
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 2: you realize that there isn't one way for.

1569
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,880
Speaker 1: Everything totally exactly. So it give me both ways. And

1570
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 1: I think overall, I think the point that at least

1571
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:33,439
Speaker 1: I think we're trying to get to, which I like,

1572
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: is that it's a bit of both. There's there's it's

1573
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:38,960
Speaker 1: almost like I read that. I'm trying to find this

1574
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:41,280
Speaker 1: poem and I can't find it ever since I read it.

1575
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:43,479
Speaker 1: It's one of those I'm sharing it here because hopefully

1576
01:26:43,520 --> 01:26:46,360
Speaker 1: someone finds it. I've read this poem while I was researching,

1577
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:49,280
Speaker 1: and there's this beautiful poet. I can't find it. I've

1578
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,519
Speaker 1: like looked for it and everything. But this poet was

1579
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 1: talking about how when you are single, you've been building

1580
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:02,679
Speaker 1: your home home with the bricks that you were given,

1581
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:06,120
Speaker 1: and your home is broken, and some of it's beautiful

1582
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 1: because that's how we are as people. Some parts of

1583
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 1: our home makes sense, and some part of the bricks

1584
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:14,120
Speaker 1: are falling out. And he said, when you come into

1585
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:19,719
Speaker 1: a relationship, you want the other person to move into

1586
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:22,679
Speaker 1: your home. You want them to come to your home,

1587
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:24,320
Speaker 1: and the other person wants you to go to their home.

1588
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 1: But actually what you need to do is take the

1589
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,400
Speaker 1: bricks you both like from your own homes and build

1590
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:32,479
Speaker 1: a new home together. And I really love that visual.

1591
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 1: The idea that this unified agreement, which was the language

1592
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:39,040
Speaker 1: you used, or this idea that you're saying of like,

1593
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:41,880
Speaker 1: how much do I allow the influence without feeling powerless,

1594
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 1: but to feel like we're co creating something. You know,

1595
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:47,400
Speaker 1: my wife and I have a lot of agreements that

1596
01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: they're not rules or contracts, with their agreements of how

1597
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:53,400
Speaker 1: we deal with certain things, and it's something we've created together.

1598
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:56,360
Speaker 1: It's not something we adopted from my parents, her parents,

1599
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 1: or anywhere else. And I feel that if we walked

1600
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:01,880
Speaker 1: into a relation and said what do we want to build together?

1601
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 1: What do we want to create together? What does a

1602
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:08,040
Speaker 1: good healthy relationship mean to us? To me, those questions

1603
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:12,519
Speaker 1: at least feel empowering as opposed to draining of power.

1604
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,880
Speaker 2: One of the complementarities in relationships is that we are

1605
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:23,680
Speaker 2: often drawn to a person who brings characteristics that we

1606
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:26,320
Speaker 2: are trying to get away from.

1607
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:29,599
Speaker 1: So true, so understand, Yes, so true.

1608
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 2: So it's a I mean, when it's dynamic, it's really

1609
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 2: a very beautiful you know, kneading of the dough.

1610
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:42,559
Speaker 1: So, as said, throughout conversation, you've been referencing this new

1611
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:44,599
Speaker 1: course of yours, which I'm so excited for people to

1612
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:47,320
Speaker 1: do because I feel like so many of what things

1613
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:51,759
Speaker 1: we've discovered today with your books and your main practice. Yes, exactly,

1614
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:53,600
Speaker 1: how do you actually apply it, So please tell us

1615
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:55,600
Speaker 1: where we can find this course and the name of

1616
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:56,360
Speaker 1: the course and where it.

1617
01:28:56,360 --> 01:29:01,200
Speaker 2: Is turning conflict into connection. It's a one hour eight

1618
01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:05,200
Speaker 2: videos with a fantastic workbook that really not just helps

1619
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 2: you fight better and more constructively, but also helps you

1620
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:11,800
Speaker 2: relate better, because if you have a different attitude to

1621
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:14,760
Speaker 2: a conflict, do you have a whole different relationship. It's

1622
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:17,280
Speaker 2: on my website, a Steraparil dot com and it's coming

1623
01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 2: out October tenth.

1624
01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:21,200
Speaker 1: Okay, amazing. Well, I recommend everyone who's listening and watching

1625
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:23,160
Speaker 1: make sure you go and check out the course. If

1626
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:25,320
Speaker 1: you've loved this conversation, I know you're going to get

1627
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: so much value from it, so much insight. And of

1628
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:30,439
Speaker 1: course make sure you go and take a look at

1629
01:29:30,439 --> 01:29:32,880
Speaker 1: all of USTA's books as well, so please check those out.

1630
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:34,760
Speaker 1: I want to do one last thing, did with you? Yes?

1631
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:36,320
Speaker 1: Did you did our final five last time?

1632
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:38,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? Because when we don't fight, I want you to play.

1633
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 2: And so first I created the game. I said, let's play.

1634
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:45,080
Speaker 1: I love it. This is beautiful game. Where should we begin?

1635
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:47,760
Speaker 1: A game of stories? By Esteburell. If you don't have

1636
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 1: this gravitude, we're gonna pick a couple of cards and

1637
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 1: have some fun with this.

1638
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:53,719
Speaker 2: Open it like a chocolate.

1639
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:57,760
Speaker 1: Oh, they are like and Belgium. You know what's really

1640
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:01,280
Speaker 1: I love chocolate. So you speaking my language completely too.

1641
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to take this out and we're going to

1642
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 1: shuffle these cards and then what do we do? Pick

1643
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 1: one at random?

1644
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:12,560
Speaker 2: Yes, we pick Look, this is you know, relationships are stories,

1645
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 2: and we tell stories about ourselves to people at every

1646
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:21,000
Speaker 2: level and we recreate connection, intimacy and fun.

1647
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:24,720
Speaker 1: You pick this is fun? Oh I'm picking, and then

1648
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 1: you hold it. You shuffle it too, then to make

1649
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:30,080
Speaker 1: sure everyone knows that this is truly random. I want

1650
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:31,600
Speaker 1: to have some fun and I love stuff like this.

1651
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 1: So I love games. I love play like one of

1652
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 1: my wife's and my favorite things to do is we

1653
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:37,080
Speaker 1: play a lot of pickleball.

1654
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:39,439
Speaker 2: Right now, you write to me after you've played with

1655
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 2: her Escape rooms.

1656
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to this one. I'm gonna yeah, definitely,

1657
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:42,840
Speaker 1: I'd love to.

1658
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 2: All right, all right, we go, Okay, if you don't

1659
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:47,200
Speaker 2: like it, you pick another.

1660
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:48,840
Speaker 1: Oh okay, that it works well?

1661
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:50,800
Speaker 2: Works like now.

1662
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a few. I'll do a few

1663
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:55,640
Speaker 1: because they're quick. So at a party, You'll find me,

1664
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:59,080
Speaker 1: is the prompt. And so at a party, you'll find

1665
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:01,960
Speaker 1: me finding the one person I can have a deep,

1666
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:06,400
Speaker 1: meaningful conversation with, sitting in the corner with them and

1667
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:10,720
Speaker 1: having existential conversations for the whole night, and people may

1668
01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 1: not even know I was at the party.

1669
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 2: That would be me really yea.

1670
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 1: And then we'd just be sitting next to each other. Great,

1671
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:16,840
Speaker 1: I love that. So I do that with you. I

1672
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 1: love it. Oh me again, Yeah, Oh, you're like poking

1673
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 1: that out to me. This is like, I got it

1674
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:26,679
Speaker 1: there you go, all right, oh wow. If I could

1675
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:29,800
Speaker 1: change something about the way I was raised, it would

1676
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 1: be so the easy answer, The first thing that came

1677
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 1: to mind is I wouldn't change anything because I'm really

1678
01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:37,400
Speaker 1: happy with the human I am today and how my

1679
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:41,439
Speaker 1: life has gone the way it has. I really, I

1680
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:43,759
Speaker 1: really think that is my honest answer. But if I

1681
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:46,920
Speaker 1: if I could change something about the way I was raised.

1682
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 2: And it doesn't just have to be your family.

1683
01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say it would be I would have

1684
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:54,800
Speaker 1: loved earlier on to know that there were so many

1685
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 1: more careers and paths in the world. So when I

1686
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:01,320
Speaker 1: met the monks when I was eighteen years old. That

1687
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:04,120
Speaker 1: was the first time my mind was open to that path.

1688
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:06,840
Speaker 1: But it took me years to recognize that you could

1689
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:08,559
Speaker 1: have a career in media, that you could have a

1690
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,960
Speaker 1: career in do this, do this, like I never thought.

1691
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,040
Speaker 1: I never knew any of that. Like I literally thought

1692
01:32:14,040 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 1: there were like three It sounds ridiculous, but I was

1693
01:32:17,240 --> 01:32:20,240
Speaker 1: so limited in my thinking growing up because of what

1694
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:22,679
Speaker 1: I was surrounded by. I would change that. I want

1695
01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:25,600
Speaker 1: people to know that there are so many different I

1696
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:27,280
Speaker 1: didn't know you could be a therapist. I didn't know

1697
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,840
Speaker 1: you could be a neuroscientist. I didn't know you could

1698
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:31,800
Speaker 1: be I would have wanted to be a neuroscientist if

1699
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:32,920
Speaker 1: I knew that existed.

1700
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:37,080
Speaker 2: I didn't know I can be a therapist outside my office.

1701
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 2: I've worked in a field that is very confidential. I

1702
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 2: could never talk about what I did, and through the podcast,

1703
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,320
Speaker 2: I'm able to work with people who are not patients,

1704
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:50,519
Speaker 2: will never be and so I can actually bring what

1705
01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:53,599
Speaker 2: is happening between the four walls to the world and

1706
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:56,160
Speaker 2: bring the world inside the office. And you can be

1707
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:58,400
Speaker 2: a fly on the world in someone else's session.

1708
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:00,920
Speaker 1: Amazing. So just from I never on the game is

1709
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:04,840
Speaker 1: called where Should We Begin. You can also or the

1710
01:33:04,840 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 1: game as well, playing with your friends, family.

1711
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:09,800
Speaker 2: And with your dates with your partner. You grab a

1712
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 2: few cards, you put in your pocket, you can leave

1713
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 2: the boxes and off you go into storyline.

1714
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:16,760
Speaker 1: Love it and you can surprise someone with chocolates in

1715
01:33:16,800 --> 01:33:17,120
Speaker 1: it too.

1716
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you can mix you can mix.

1717
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,840
Speaker 1: It mess es. There has been such an Honestly, talking

1718
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:26,360
Speaker 1: to you, I feel so It's really interesting when you

1719
01:33:26,360 --> 01:33:30,080
Speaker 1: talk to someone and you just feel like you've immersed

1720
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:32,599
Speaker 1: yourself so deeply in this space for so many decades,

1721
01:33:32,760 --> 01:33:35,880
Speaker 1: and the wisdom shines through your words, it shines through

1722
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:40,320
Speaker 1: your empathy at the same time your assertiveness. I am

1723
01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:42,719
Speaker 1: so grateful that you do what you do for the world. Honestly,

1724
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 1: I learn so much from you. I learn so much

1725
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:47,160
Speaker 1: from your work. I'm a student of your work, and

1726
01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:49,600
Speaker 1: I honestly feel humbled and grateful that I've got to

1727
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:52,960
Speaker 1: spend this time with you. And I highly encourage everyone

1728
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:56,000
Speaker 1: to go and immerse themselves in your world in all ways.

1729
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:58,320
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for the gift of the world.

1730
01:33:58,400 --> 01:33:59,120
Speaker 1: I really mean that.

1731
01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:01,439
Speaker 2: Thank you means a lot a minute.

1732
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:04,760
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you love this episode, you're going to love.

1733
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:08,160
Speaker 1: My conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over

1734
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:11,480
Speaker 1: your ex and find true love in your relationships.

1735
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:15,880
Speaker 2: People should be compassionate to themselves that extend that compassion

1736
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:20,080
Speaker 2: to your future self, because truly extending your compassion to

1737
01:34:20,120 --> 01:34:23,120
Speaker 2: your future self is doing something that gives him or

1738
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 2: her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life