1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday, so we 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: are heading into the vault for an older episode of 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is part one of 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: our series on diamonds, originally published January sixteenth, twenty twenty four. 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: Let's dive right in. 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: is Robert. 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: And today we are going to begin a multi episode 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: dive into the world of diamonds. So diamonds, this is 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: a topic that it's probably been in sort of the 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: background for a while. We've considered, you know, we know 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: that there are a lot of interesting things about diamonds, 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: but I know, for my own part, there's like this 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: surface level resistance to covering diamonds because the first thing 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: that comes to mind is just sort of like the 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: ubiquitous vision of diamonds that you encounter in diamond TV commercials, 21 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: and it just kind of, you know, it certainly drives 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: home this idea that diamonds are something everyone wants. Diamonds 23 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: are something everyone needs. But also diamonds end up looking 24 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: like this ridiculously mainstream, square thing, and I'm just resistant 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: to the idea that there might be anything cool about them. 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: The elegance, the grandeur, the luxury. 27 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but when you dive deeper, both in terms 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: of the subject matter and also the history of diamonds, 29 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: there's a lot more there, and so we have a 30 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: number of different angles to approach in this series, including 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: some basic reminders about what diamonds are. But yeah, I 32 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: thought it a nice way to sort of kick this 33 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: off would just be to talk a little bit about 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: just like how we perceive diamonds, not even like, you know, overtly, 35 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: like let's sit down and think about diamonds, but just 36 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: sort of, like, you know, subconsciously, how we've grown up 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: processing them, because yeah, they're they're highly referenced in our language. 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: You know, they're they're valuable. Obviously, why are they valuable 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: the various answers to that, But for my own part, 40 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: I was thinking about it growing up. Diamonds were first 41 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: of all, something that you know, my mother, various female 42 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: members of the family had, but they were too precious 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: for me to touch or you know, look at too much. 44 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: And then if you did look at them, and I 45 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: have to acknowledge this will vary depending on your family's 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: particular jewels, but they never looked like much to me, 47 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: especially as a kid. I'd look at one and it's like, Okay, 48 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 1: it's a little speck of nothing, but then the light 49 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: catches it just right and it's brilliant. It's amazing. But 50 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: then you look back at it, Okay, no, just a 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: little rock or something. And then watching movies, I would 52 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: I would know two things about diamonds. First of all, 53 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: they're super valuable because people are always trying to steal them, 54 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: and once you steal them, you can just like turn 55 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: it in for money somewhere, I guess. And finally, and 56 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: this often is seen in the same movies, you can 57 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: take a diamond and cut through any pane of glass 58 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: instantly by tracing a circle on that pane of glass, 59 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: you know, and it just neatly falls out into your hand, 60 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: or use a little suction cup to pull it out right. 61 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: I assume that's not really true. It doesn't work that way. 62 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: Is that? Have you ever looked into that? 63 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: I believe this has been mythbusted. Okay, so do not attempt, 64 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: but it looks super easy in various caper films and 65 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: TV shows and cartoons. 66 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to think about the early significance of 67 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: diamonds to me, apart from them just being like a 68 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: cash equivalent mcguffin in you know, high stories and stuff. 69 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: You know, the bad guy in the movie always wants 70 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: the diamonds, Get me the diamonds in real life. I 71 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: remember when I was young, I think I was a 72 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: little confused about the difference between a diamond and a 73 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: glass prism, because they looked the same to me, and 74 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: the glass prism was bigger and could care asked, you know, 75 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: the the rainbows all over the wall, and so it 76 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: wasn't quite clear to me. I guess what was better 77 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: about this really tiny diamond as opposed to the huge 78 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: diamond hanging in the window. 79 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, because the prism, like you said, is a lot bigger. 80 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: It seems to work a lot better. Uh, caveat on 81 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: that in a bit. But but then, more to the point, 82 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: super cheap. You can buy prisms all day, you know, 83 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: especially the plastic variety, and you're not going to break 84 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: the bank. 85 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: But then again, apart from just the knowledge that a 86 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: lot of people had them, you know, on like their 87 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,559 Speaker 2: engagement ring, their or their wedding ring. I guess usually 88 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 2: engagement ring. I didn't really have much real world consciousness 89 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: of them. They were they were primarily something in fiction. 90 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the TV ads too, though. I remember 91 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: thinking as a kid, it's like you'd see these images 92 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: of like, all right, you're in love, you're married, you 93 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: need to give more diamonds, and part of you kind 94 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: of like asked the question, Wow, if I'm ever a 95 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 1: married person, well, I just be buying diamonds all the time, 96 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: Like I've apparently got to buy the first diamond and 97 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: then just diamonds every year thereafter. But yeah, I think 98 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: it's amusing that diamonds can be so all over the place. 99 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: You know, they're valuable, but they can also seem kind 100 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: of plain and lame. They're sparkling, they but also sometimes 101 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: the way that we describe them and think of them 102 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: that may be imbued with spiritual truth. They might be 103 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: a physical manifestation of love, a symbol of human greed, 104 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: of horror and inequality, a magical thief's tool, and also 105 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: the ultimate and just gaudy excess, and I feel like 106 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: even the geologic truth of the diamond, which we'll get 107 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: into later, it feels so weird. Perhaps this weirdness, at 108 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: least for me anyway, And I think maybe for a 109 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: lot of like film viewers of the time, you might 110 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: think back to a very memorable scene in Superman three 111 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: in which Christopher Reeves Superman picks up a chunk of 112 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: coal and crushes it in his fist and then open 113 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: his fist to reveal not only a diamond, but a 114 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: fully cut diamond. 115 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: So it's got the what the facets on it that 116 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: that's not how diamonds come straight out of the earth. 117 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean, of course they're usually not made 118 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: by Superman, so I guess with Superman everything's fair game. 119 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: He would do this in the comics too, Apparently I 120 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: had to research this, but this is a Superman gag 121 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: that goes way back. I don't know if he ever 122 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: like makes any use of it, or it's just kind 123 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: of like he's always just kind of showing off. Maybe 124 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: the one up Jesus, I'm not sure, but but yeah, 125 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: he'll just crush that coal, open his fist, Bam, diamond priceless, 126 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: already cut, ready to go. 127 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: It makes me wonder about a Superman plot line where 128 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: the villains are like diamond cartels that are worried Superman 129 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: is going to increase the supply too much. 130 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, or like villains who are like, oh no, Superman's 131 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: on his way to shut down an operation like quick 132 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: spread tole everywhere, just in case he just haphazardly makes 133 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: a few diamonds. We may come out ahead in the end. 134 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, to your point, could you get like goldfinger 135 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: the diamond market couldn't. 136 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: Hey yeah, oh no, wait, that would be a reverse Goldfinger. 137 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: That's right, it would be a reverse Goldfinger. Yes, So yeah, 138 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: I had this scene popping around my head. I had 139 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: the diamond commercials, and those diamond commercials again, they try 140 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: to convince you, even at a young age, that diamonds 141 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: are life. Diamonds, diamonds are everything worth having in life, 142 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: that they reflect life. And that's why I think it's 143 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: going to be great that our first major avenue of 144 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: investigation here concerns another idea that that diamonds just might 145 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: be death. 146 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: Right. So this is actually what first got me interested 147 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: in the topic of diamonds for a series today, I 148 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: wanted to begin by looking at a weird question, and 149 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: the question is are diamonds poisonous? 150 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: So to be clear, this is not getting into very 151 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: valid discussions of things like blood, diamonds and all. This 152 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: is the idea that there is something about the diamond 153 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: that is in and of itself poisons to the human body. 154 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, poisonous if ingested in one form or another. Now, 155 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: before we get to the answer to this question, I 156 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: need to back up and explain the origin of the question, 157 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: which is that a few months ago you may remember 158 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: we were doing a series on the shadow, the shadow 159 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: in history, art, science, and so forth. I think this 160 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: was during the last October, and one of the things 161 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: we ended up talking about in that series on the 162 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: shadow was an optical effect known as the Highligan shine. 163 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: This is a real world phenomenon in which people sometimes 164 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: see the shadow of their own head surrounded by a 165 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: bright halo of light when they happen to be standing 166 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: over a field of grass in the early morning. And 167 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: there might be other conditions that create the same effect, 168 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: but that's one of the most common ways people see it. Now, 169 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: you can go back and listen to that episode if 170 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: you want. The full explanation of how this halo arises 171 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: from the interplay of sunlight, grass and do. The relevant 172 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 2: fact about it for today is that the Hiligenshine is 173 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: also sometimes called Cellini's halo, and it gets this name 174 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: from one of the early figures to notice and mention 175 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 2: it in writing, and that is a sixteenth century Italian 176 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: goldsmith and sculptor named ben Venudo Cellini. One of the 177 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: weirdest and most fascinating characters I have come across while 178 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: researching for this show. I am a full steam ahead 179 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: on the Benvenudo Cellini train. Now I kind of want 180 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: to go back and read the entire memoirs. I might 181 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: do that. 182 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: So. 183 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: Benvenudo Cellini lived from fifteen hundred to fifteen seventy one, 184 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: and though he is remembered for his artworks, which include 185 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: an almost absurdly ornate golden salt cellar, we talked about 186 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 2: this when he came up in that previous episode. He 187 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: made that for Francis the First the king of France 188 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: at the time, and also a large bronze sculpture of 189 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: Perseus holding up the severed head of Medusa, which is 190 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: one of the sculptures in the covered gallery that's at 191 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: the edge of the Piazza della Signora, which is the 192 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: big square in the center of Florence. Rob I've got 193 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: a picture of both these artworks for you to look 194 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: at here if you want. While he is known for 195 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: these artworks, he is known today I think at least 196 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: as much for his bizarre, fascinating, grandiose, and almost certainly 197 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: heavily embellished auto biography, which is just packed full of 198 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 2: these weird, passionate, rousing tales primarily about how awesome he is. 199 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: We get stories of Cellini lauded by kings and queens 200 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: for his unique genius, Cellini visited by angels who write 201 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: secret heavenly words on his forehead, Cellini single handedly fighting 202 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: off gangs of bandits, Chillini falsely imprisoned Celeni, hatching and 203 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: executing a daring prison break from Castle San Angelo in Rome, 204 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: and even in describing the Heiligensheine the glow around the 205 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: shadow's head, Chillini seems to believe it to be a 206 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: sign of God's special providence toward him, rather than like 207 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: an optical effect that anyone would experience in the same circumstances. 208 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: But as I recall from the previous episode, he was like, 209 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: many people have observed this. When I asked them, they're like, yes, 210 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: I see the halo above your head, around your head. 211 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: You are chosen by God. Clearly we all agree. 212 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. I showed it to other people and they believe me. 213 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: In fact, this is a theme I've noticed in the 214 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 2: parts of his memoirs I've read. He often is like, 215 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: somebody else saw the thing I did, and they agreed 216 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: that it was magnificent, and they told me I was special. 217 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: So Rob, I thought you would appreciate this too. We 218 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: also get a story of Chillini meeting at least one 219 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: mythical monster in the story, which is the salamander. So, 220 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: when Cellini was a child of five years old, he 221 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: tells that his father was playing the viola beside a 222 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: fire of oak logs in the basement of their house 223 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: when his father saw something in the fire and then 224 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: made his children come and look, and little bin Venudo 225 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: saw a lizard dancing in the heart of the flame, 226 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: and his father told him that it was the mythical salamander, 227 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: the elemental beast of fire, and he saw it. 228 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: Oh, excellent. You know now that I've thought about it 229 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: a little bit. I think tomorrow's monster fact may have 230 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: to be the salamander. But real quick, I think that 231 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: I have read before that some of these myths about 232 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: the salamander. And again we have to point out like 233 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: a duality here there's this idea of a mythical fire lizard, 234 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: and then there's the actual salamander. And the connecting tissue 235 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: seems to be that there were accounts of burning damp 236 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: logs that and in reality either contained a salamander or 237 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, had a salamander clinging to the underside of it. 238 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: You'll frequently find salamanders in you know, boggy or marshy 239 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: environments underneath such a log. But if you were to 240 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: take such a log through it on the fire, and 241 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: you would see some sort of little cre you're squirming there. Oh, 242 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: it's some sort of It's clearly it's made of fire. 243 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: That's why it's in the fire. Now, it's just a 244 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: salamander that was on the log you threw in. Now 245 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: why you're throwing in super damp logs, I don't know. 246 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: Maybe you just don't have a lot, and maybe the 247 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: fire's fully raging at that point, and therefore you can 248 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: throw something a little damp on there. 249 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: That is an interesting possibility. I hadn't thought about it 250 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 2: that way, but yeah, maybe somebody actually did accidentally get 251 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: some salamanders in the fire. 252 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: More on that tomorrow. More in that tomorrow. 253 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: Okay, Okay. In the case of this story, having read 254 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: it from the autobiography, I really can't tell if this 255 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: is something that makes more sense as there actually was 256 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: some sort of creature in there and they just misinterpreted 257 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: what it was, or if I don't know, they were 258 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: just looking into fire and seeing things in the shapes. 259 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: That's one of the compounding factors here, right, is that 260 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: humans logs staring into fires, and if you steer into 261 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: fires long enough, your imagination can allow you to see things. 262 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: And then if you have a pre existing cultural notion 263 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: that there is some sort of magical fire lizard in there, oh, 264 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: you might just see it anyway. 265 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: All of that to say that while Benvenudo Cellini is 266 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: a fascinating and in some ways important historical figure, we 267 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: should not take anything in his autobiography at face value 268 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: as history or science. You just read it and you 269 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: get the feeling even without you know, comparing it to 270 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: external evidence. Like, Okay, there's obviously some embellishment going on here. 271 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: But to come back to the diamond question, one of 272 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: the many, many weird stories Chillini tells about his time 273 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: in prison is about a supposed attempt on his life 274 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: via poison made out of shattered diamonds. So to set 275 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: the stage in this passage, Chillini is hanging out in prison, 276 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: one of the multiple times he's imprisoned in the story, 277 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: he has just written a sonnet that will prove his innocence, Like, 278 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: he's written a sonnet that is so virtue and indicative 279 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: of his lack of criminality that he believes the constable 280 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: had it sent to the Pope for review, with the 281 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: implication that like, when the Pope sees this poem I wrote, 282 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: then they'll have to release me because they'll know I 283 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 2: couldn't have done it. But suddenly the friendly constable in 284 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: the prison dies and he is replaced by the constable 285 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: is replaced by his brother, And at this point Chillini 286 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: believes that a group of his enemies sort of like 287 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: seize the moment and conspire to kill him by poison. 288 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: And another thing is that Jellini is frequently making references 289 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: to conspiracies of enemies against him. He seems to constantly 290 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: think that he's got a bunch of enemies who are 291 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: out to get him. And it's not exactly clear to 292 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: me how much truth there is to this. There might be, 293 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: but it's hard to tell. So he describes their plot 294 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: as follows, and the translation of Chileini's autobiography I'm going 295 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: to read for here is by Hamus Roscoe. This was 296 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: published back in the nineteenth century. So Chillini writes, they 297 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: at first thought of mixing with my meat the powder 298 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: of a pounded diamond. This is not a poison of itself, 299 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: but is so excessively hard that it retains its acute angles, 300 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: Differing from other stones, which, when they are pounded, entirely 301 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: lose the sharpness of their particles and become round. The 302 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: diamond alone preserves the acuteness of its angles. Hence it 303 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: follows that when it enters the stomach with the meat, 304 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: and the operation of digestion is to be performed, the 305 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: particles of the diamond stick to the cartilages of the 306 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: stomach and the bowels, And as the newly received food 307 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: is impelled forward, the minute parts of the diamond which 308 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: adhere to those cartilages in process of time perforate them, 309 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: and this causes death, whereas every other sort of stone 310 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: or glass, when mixed with meat, is incapable of sticking 311 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 2: to the coat of the stomach, and of consequence is 312 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 2: voided with the food. 313 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: This doesn't sound like a pleasant poison. 314 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: To No, this is horrible. No, he's saying that, I 315 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: don't he's distinguishing it somehow from the concept of poison, 316 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: which I don't know. I mean, either way, it's something 317 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: that ingested harms you. But maybe the other idea is 318 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: that a poison is something that though I don't even 319 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: I don't think Chillini in his time would have had 320 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 2: these concepts, but is killed by way of some like 321 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: chemical metabolism, where this is killed because like literally, it's 322 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 2: just like pieces stabbing you on the inside. It's like 323 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 2: swallowing a bunch of needles or something, except on an 324 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 2: incredibly tiny scale. So he's saying, you know, it's it's 325 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: mechanically killing you from the inside rather than chemically killing 326 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 2: you from the inside, And it truly does sound horrible. However, 327 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: Chillini says that he escapes death from the intended plot 328 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: as a result of his enemies bungling their plan. So 329 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: he says that one of the conspirators is that it 330 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: was the supplier of the diamond. So that conspirator gets 331 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: the diamond and he gives it to another one of 332 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 2: the conspirators who is supposed to pound it into a powder, 333 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: and that powder is going to be used to poison him. 334 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: But this second guy who was supposed to pound the diamond, 335 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: being broke and greedy, kept the diamond and swapped it 336 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 2: out for a different gem of lesser value, which he 337 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 2: pounded and then handed over for the purpose of the murder. 338 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: So here we pick up again with Chillini's narrative. He says, 339 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: on the day that it was administered to me, being 340 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: good Friday, they put it into all my victuals, into 341 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: the salad, the sauce, and the soup. I ate very heartily, 342 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: as I had had no supper the night before, and 343 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: it happened to be a holiday. I indeed felt the 344 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 2: meat crash under my teeth. Oh, but never once dreamt 345 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 2: of the villainous designs of my enemies. When I had 346 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: done dinner, as there remained a little of the salad 347 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 2: on the dish, I happened to fix my eyes on 348 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: some of the smallest particles remaining. I immediately took them, and, 349 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: advancing to the window, upon examining them by the light, 350 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: recollected the unusual crashing above mentioned. Then, viewing the particles 351 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: with attention, I was inclined to think, as far as 352 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: my eye could judge that a pounded diamond had been 353 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: mixed with my victuals. So Jeleni knows he's going to die, 354 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 2: and he prays to God. However, upon examining the grains further, 355 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: he realizes that they're actually not quite indestructible to him. 356 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 2: He can sort of crack and crunch them with a 357 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: small knife, and that means they are not actually made 358 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 2: of diamond. And because a diamond he thinks he would 359 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: not be able to crush with this small knife, but 360 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 2: this other gym he would. And then he says, ohka, okay, 361 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 2: if there are another gem, they're not actually able to 362 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 2: injure me. It would have to be diamond powder for 363 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: it to work. So I think he sort of like 364 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: deduces the whole plot and how it was bungled here. 365 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: But oh, there's a good twist here. Though he at 366 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: first shows evidence of the attempted poisoning to another prisoner, 367 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: a bishop of Pavia, who is in prison on account 368 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: of quote plots and intrigues, and he allows this bishop 369 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 2: in the cellover to think that Chillini has been successfully 370 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 2: poisoned with a real diamond and only has a few 371 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 2: months to live, and uses this to get the bishop 372 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: to share his presumably better quality bishop food with Chillini. 373 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 2: And by the way, this is by no means the 374 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 2: only story that Chillini tells about plots against his life. 375 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: It's not even the only attempted poisoning. There's another story 376 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: where he claims that enemies tried to poison his food 377 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: with mercuric chloride at the time known as corrosive sublimate, 378 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: which definitely is poisonous in reality, but according to Chillini, 379 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: they didn't give him a big enough dose, so they 380 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: poisoned him with it. Instead of killing him, it only 381 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: made him sick to his stomach and cured his syphilis. 382 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: Oh man, So, anyway, to come back to the question 383 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: at hand, I was really fascinated by this story, and 384 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: I wondered if there was any truth to Chillini's ideas 385 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 2: about the lethal effect of eating ground up diamonds. And 386 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: I'm gonna get into some more details here, but as 387 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 2: best I can tell, the answer is probably no. But 388 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna give a note with such confidence that 389 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: you get the green light to go eat some diamond powder. 390 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: I'd still be cautious about it. Yeah, do not do that, 391 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: because one thing that is clear is Chillini is far 392 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 2: from the only person in history to advance this notion. 393 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: It has been held by many in many different cultures, 394 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: times and places throughout world history that eating diamonds is poisonous, 395 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: though interestingly it also in other contexts has been diamonds 396 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 2: have been regarded as medicine. So to further explore this 397 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: urban legend about diamond based poisons, the best source I 398 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: found was a book called Diamonds, An Early History of 399 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: the King of Gems from Yale University Press, twenty eighteen, 400 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 2: written by a British historian named Jack Ogden, who seems 401 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: to specialize in the history of jewelry. 402 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great book. I've been reading this 403 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: as well, and we'll reference this in future topics we're 404 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: discussing concerning diamonds. But yeah, Ogden is what a genologist 405 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: in addition to an historian, so he knows his diamonds. 406 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. And in the section on poisoning by diamond Ogden 407 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: says that, as far as he can tell, there is 408 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: no scientific support for the belief that diamonds are poisonous. 409 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: As one of the early sources to write extensively on 410 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: this subject, Ogden cites the famous eleventh century Persian scientist 411 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: and scholar al Biruni, who was one of the great 412 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: polymaths of the Islamic Golden Age. Famously a master of 413 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: many many disciplines, so he wrote books on extremely varied subjects, 414 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: everything from mathematics to astronomy, history, geography, and ethnography. He 415 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: apparently produced a very important medieval book on the culture 416 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 2: of India. In one section, Ogden talks about how al 417 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 2: Biruni made a note of how appreciation for diamonds varied 418 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: greatly by culture, and so while diamonds were, he says, 419 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 2: widely venerated for their ornamental value in India, he claimed 420 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: that they were not equally venerated in neighboring regions like 421 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: Iraq and Korsan, which Korison at the time would have 422 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: been a region corresponding to what today parts of Iran, Afghanistan, 423 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 2: and Central Asia, and in these latter regions, Albi Runi 424 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: said that diamonds were only used for drilling and for 425 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 2: making poison. But did Albi Rouney think that they were 426 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: actually effective as poison. No. He offered several lines of 427 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 2: evidence against the idea that pieces of diamond could be 428 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 2: used as poison the way that Chillini would later describe. 429 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: First of all, he mentions a kind of logical problem 430 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: with how these poisoning plots are supposed to work. He says, 431 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 2: if people were fed pieces of diamond as a poison quote, 432 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: if it has not been ground, well, it will be 433 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: betrayed by the teeth of the eater. 434 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 3: Ugh. 435 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 2: Oh god. There's a lot of like cringe inducing ideas here, 436 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: from from tooth trauma, from crunching on a diamond to 437 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 2: swallowing sharp things. 438 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, like even if it's gritty, you know, like that 439 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: might be enough to make the target of your assassination 440 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: either just send back the dish or it would raise 441 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: their suspicion that someone was trying to poison them with diamonds. 442 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: As we saw our previous example, and certainly if the 443 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: individual had a food taster as well. That would also 444 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: be some that would also be something that would tip 445 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: your hand here and would alert your target that you 446 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: were trying to do them in. 447 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and interestingly, most of the old stories about poisonings 448 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 2: via diamond powder concern very rich people in history, you know, 449 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: and for I think probably obvious reasons that you know, 450 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: diamond powder is probably not cheap to come by. So 451 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: the people who were allegedly being poisoned by diamond powder 452 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 2: were you know, aristocrats, enemies of the Medici family maybe, 453 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 2: or kings and queens or popes or sultan's things like that. 454 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 2: But anyways, so albi Rouni is saying, presumably, if it 455 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: were to be successfully snuck into someone's food, it would 456 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: have to be pulverized into a very fine powder. But 457 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 2: the second thing is albi Rouni cites experimental evidence. He 458 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 2: says that he and maybe he or someone else tried 459 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: feeding pieces of diamond to a dog, and says that 460 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 2: the dog showed no signs whatsoever of harm, neither immediately 461 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 2: after the experiment nor any time later. He's like, yeah, 462 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 2: dog's fine. 463 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: Oh wow, is this the titular diamond dog? 464 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: Then that had not occurred to me, I don't know. 465 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: Now that is some experimental evidence, though on the other hand, 466 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 2: that clearly would not meet the standards of a modern 467 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 2: toxicology experiment. But it's something something to look at, now, 468 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: I'll be rooney. He puts all these considerations together, and 469 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: he says, you know, in the end, there's no basis 470 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 2: for thinking diamonds are poisonous. He says that it is 471 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: all idle talk, it's tall tales, but that did not 472 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: stop lots of other people from believing it. Ogden mentions 473 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: an account written by the sixteenth century English politician Jerome Horsey, 474 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 2: who recorded comments made by the Russian Czar Ivan the Terrible. 475 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 2: I believe this was near the time of Ivan's death, 476 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: in which Ivan was going on about the godlike potency 477 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: of the diamond, and he said, among other things, that 478 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 2: quote the least parcel of it in powder will poison 479 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 2: a horse, with the implication you know, how much more 480 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: will it do to a human if it'll poison a horse. 481 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 2: And I just wanted to mention a footnote of Ogden's 482 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: where he says, well, first of all, in this footnote 483 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: he says, you know, if you go trying to look 484 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: up that comment of Ivans. It is not in the 485 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: edited published account of Jerome Horsey's travels in Russia, but 486 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: it is in his manuscript from which the edited account 487 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: was produced. But then finally he says quote whether Ivan's 488 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: example of a horse was a deliberate pun on Horsey's 489 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 2: name is unknown. Ha but Ogden also mentions several records 490 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: of people who allegedly attempted to commit murders by slipping 491 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: diamonds into people's food. So one was noted by a 492 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 2: sixteenth century Portuguese doctor named Garcia del Orta or Garcia 493 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 2: de Orta, who claims that a woman tried to kill 494 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: her sick husband by feeding him ground up diamonds and 495 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: that didn't work. Another account takes place in early seventeenth 496 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 2: century England. It's some kind of very messy lover's dispute 497 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: among aristocrats in which the wife of an earl wanted 498 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: her marriage annulled so she could marry a different earl. 499 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 2: But the guy who she wanted to get married to 500 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: had an adviser who disapproved of her, so she wanted 501 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: to kill the adviser so she could go ahead with 502 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: the marriage to this other guy. But apparently at one 503 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: point In this caper, she sent an associate to an 504 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: apothecary to buy diamond powder. It was like, you know, 505 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: we've got to have the diamond powder for poisoning. You know, 506 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: whatever it costs, get it. And the apothecary was like, 507 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 2: I have no idea what you're talking about, and she 508 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: called him a fool. And she was eventually able to 509 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: poison the adviser, but it seems like it was historians 510 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: think it was probably with a different agent other than 511 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: diamond now. Ogden mentions an another sixteenth century physician, an 512 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 2: Italian named Girolamo Cardano, who also commented on the use 513 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: of diamonds as a poison and, similar to alb Rooney, 514 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: cast doubt on the idea because he was like, you know, 515 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 2: like there are cases where people steal diamonds by swallowing 516 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: them and then later retrieving them, and there is there's 517 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: no evidence that they suffered any harm. Now you might think, well, 518 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: but those are like whole intact diamonds. Maybe maybe swallowing 519 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: a whole diamond is fine, but swallowing the ground up 520 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 2: diamond powder is what's really dangerous. And Cardano also says 521 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: he knows of at least one case where somebody had 522 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: swallowed a big mass of diamond powder quote, without prejudicing 523 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: the health of the taker anymore than if he had 524 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: eaten so much bread. Though this does make me wonder, Okay, 525 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 2: assuming diamonds, diamonds and diamond powder are not particularly poisonous, 526 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: how do they generally affect digestion? Like I was thinking, 527 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: you know, like or is a diamond upset stomach a 528 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: thing or diamond farts a thing? 529 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: Well, certainly that I can see where the concept would 530 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: be alluring, because I mean, it's kind of like the 531 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: diamond dog thing. Like diamond has just such linguistic weight, 532 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, it brings with it all these connotations of 533 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: obscene wealth and splendor, and we combine it with something 534 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: that could be considered lowly like a dog, like the 535 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: passing of gas. It instantly like zings in the brain. 536 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: Right, yes, And that kind of points to another thing. 537 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: So Cardano's comment about stealing or smuggling diamonds by swallowing them, 538 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: it really kind of makes me wonder about this belief 539 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 2: in the poisonous power of diamonds, Like if this belief 540 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: about death by diamond ingestion could trace back to people 541 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: trying to prevent diamond theft or diamond smuggling, you know, 542 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: like better not try to swallow it or hide it 543 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 2: in your mouth. If you swallow it, it'll rip your 544 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: guts apart. Now, Ogden kind of comes up short looking 545 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: for recent evidence of experiments on the toxicity of diamonds, 546 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 2: and he ends up having to look back to a 547 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: letter written to the journal Notes and Queries in eighteen 548 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: seventy five which claimed thatte the only possible way in 549 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 2: which it diamond powder could be injurious would be as 550 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: a mechanical irritant to the mucous membrane of the stomach. 551 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: So I was kind of wondering, are there any more 552 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: recent studies on the toxicity of ground up of either 553 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: diamonds in whole form or shattered diamonds or diamonds ground 554 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: up into a powder. And I did not directly find 555 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: any good toxicology research on this. I did come across 556 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: another just sort of like compilation overview in a book 557 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 2: on nanomedicine written by an author named Robert Fritis, who 558 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: has written a lot of information that's freely available online. 559 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: In his work, Fridas collects a bunch of other claims 560 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: from the history of diamonds, but both claims of them 561 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: working as poison but also as medicine, and this author writing, 562 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: I think in the early to mid two thousands, like 563 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: two thousand and three, two thousand and five, it looked 564 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: like these sources were dated. This author basically says that 565 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: the evidence from history is inconclusive, and that he's also 566 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: not able to find any good recent toxicology studies on 567 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: diamond powder ingestion. He does note that any abrasive, gritty 568 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: powder ingested in sufficient quantities can cause problems. Like if 569 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: you just eat a bunch of sand, you know, you 570 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: can get intestinal blockage, obviously if you not to be 571 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 2: super super grossier. But if you know, you eat like 572 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: a needle or something that is long and sharp, you 573 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 2: can get perforations somewhere in the digestive system. So a 574 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 2: lot of things, a lot of you know, non food items, 575 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 2: if eaten in sufficient quantities, can hurt you. I mean, 576 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: I guess even food items eaten in sufficient quantities can 577 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: hurt you. But he says it looks like there's not 578 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: strong modern evidence that diamond powder in particular is dangerous. However, 579 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 2: I would say that does not mean, you've got the 580 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: green light to go eat it. This guy's conclusion seems 581 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: to be that there's not strong evidence that diamond powder 582 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: is poisonous, but there's like enough concern that it would 583 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: be worth studying to make sure, especially for people who 584 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: are maybe exposed to it more often in their line 585 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: of work. So, to summarize my thoughts here, most of 586 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: the actual accounts of diamonds used as poison as opposed 587 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: to you know accounts as opposed to just free floating 588 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 2: factoids about how diamonds work and what they can do, 589 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: the accounts seem to be either unsubstantiated rumors, or they 590 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: conclude with the diamond poison not working, or the details 591 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 2: seem slippery. However, the evidence on whether diamonds are poison 592 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: it does still seem to be mixed. It seems like 593 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: it's probably not any more poisonous than any other abrasive, 594 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 2: gritty powder, but we're far from one hundred percent confidence 595 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: on that. Plus any powder insufficient quantities could hurt you, 596 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: so I would still say it is probably better not 597 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 2: to eat it. 598 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just no reason to ingest diamond dust like 599 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: it's On one hand, yes, it probably won't hurt you, 600 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: but just to be safe, don't do it and don't 601 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: poison people. Obviously, that's I think, that's that's that's something 602 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: we stand by here on the show. But even if 603 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: you were in the business of poisoning people, this would 604 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: not be a good poison. This would be nothing you 605 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: could rely on, So don't do it. 606 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 2: Well, it makes me wonder about the sort of the 607 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: literary appeal of the idea of diamonds as poison. You know, 608 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: the same reason it struck us as interesting to talk 609 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: about this on the show is that it seems unusual 610 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: and like an extravagant type of poison. So I almost 611 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: wonder if in some of the stories where it was 612 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 2: allegedly used to poison people or to attempt to poison people, 613 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 2: it should make us question the facts of the narrative, 614 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: because this is like a potent image of somebody using 615 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: an extravagant, expensive luxury item to harm someone, and it's 616 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 2: like packed with meaning. 617 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of irony to it. 618 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: This is exactly the kind of thing and I don't know, 619 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: it's impossible that either of these characters utilize some sort 620 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: of fictional diamond poison at some point or another. But 621 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing you could imagine Diabolic from 622 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: Danger Diabolic, yes, using you know, against his rich enemies. 623 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: And likewise, for like modern film franchises, you could imagine 624 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: the Jigsaw Killer from the Saw movies using something like this. 625 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: It's just it would be the perfect ironic death for 626 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: some sort of like a uber rich villain, right. 627 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 2: Right, or for somebody like like Benvenudo Cellini, who is 628 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 2: a goldsmith and a jeweler and a sculptor, somebody who 629 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 2: worked with jewels. I don't know if scholars of Chillini's 630 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 2: life and memoirs would have more to say about that, 631 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 2: but yeah, it seems like it seems fitting that his 632 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 2: enemies would try to get him with a beautiful jewel 633 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 2: that he might be, something that he might have used 634 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: in one of his works. 635 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: All right, well, we're gonna go ahead and close out 636 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: this first episode of our look at Diamonds, but we'll 637 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: be back on Thursday with part two. We're gonna kick 638 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: that off with some diamond basics. So if you're like, 639 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: hold on, I still don't know what a diamond is, 640 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: don't worry. We're gonna jump in with some of the 641 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: basics at the beginning of the next episode, and then 642 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: we'll get into more like weird and fascinating elements of 643 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: the Diamond's role and culture and belief and so forth. 644 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: So it should be a fun ride. In the meantime, 645 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: we'll remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 646 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: primarily a science podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and 647 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: Thursdays listener mail on Mondays. On Wednesday's we do a 648 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: short form artifact or monster fact episode. I think we're 649 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: gonna put together one on the Salmon and for tomorrow, 650 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: and then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns 651 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 1: to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 652 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 653 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us 654 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 655 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 656 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 657 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 2: your Mind dot com. 658 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 659 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 660 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.