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Speaker 1: This is the Buck Sexton Show where the mission where

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Speaker 1: mission is to decode what really matters with actionable intelligence

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Speaker 1: magnor mistake America, You're a great American. Again the Buck

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Speaker 1: Sexton Show begins. He's a great guy. No book up

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Speaker 1: to the Buck Sexton Show. This is Ben Weingarden filling

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Speaker 1: in for Buck Sexton here on a sticky, humid, steamy

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Speaker 1: knight in New York. Thank you for taking this time

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Speaker 1: to spend a few hours and tonight we have a

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Speaker 1: very busy show lined up. Lots of things going on

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Speaker 1: in the world, both in America and abroad. And I

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Speaker 1: want to start first by thanking Buck for giving me

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to fill his ward shoes. So always a pleasure,

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Speaker 1: in a privilege to spend some time with you, a

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Speaker 1: great audience, a knowledgeable audience, a unique audience. Tonight we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about a handful of topics that I

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Speaker 1: think are crucial on the domestic front and on the

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Speaker 1: global front. The big news of this week is the

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Speaker 1: squad versus Trump. The squad being Congresswomen Presley twyeb Or

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Speaker 1: talib omar an AOC. I believe that what we have

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Speaker 1: seen in real time is the meta narrative that will

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Speaker 1: play out in the twenty twenty election. And I believe

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Speaker 1: it was a master stroke by the president to do

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Speaker 1: what he did. And there are people of two minds

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Speaker 1: on this. The president could have stepped back and let

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Speaker 1: his enemy hang itself, effectively his political enemy. He could

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Speaker 1: have let the civil war on the left continued a

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Speaker 1: fessor between the quote unquote moderate establishment. They're not moderate,

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Speaker 1: by the way, they're just slightly less crazy leftists because

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Speaker 1: they're more practical, they want to stay in power, they

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Speaker 1: don't want to scare off normal Americains, and then the

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Speaker 1: true believers who don't care and are willing to tear

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Speaker 1: it all down instead. What Trump did was he forced

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Speaker 1: them into an embrace. People would say, why would you

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Speaker 1: want to unify the left, Well, it's a very uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: bear hug that we've seen take place where Nancy Pelosi,

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Speaker 1: who was in open warfare with the squad quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: is now forced to embrace them and condemn the president.

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Speaker 1: That is the most uncomfortable embrace that we will see

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Speaker 1: probably going into twenty twenty, because that embrace has elevated

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Speaker 1: them them being the squad, and it has also served

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Speaker 1: to toxify the entire Democratic Party. It elevated the squad

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Speaker 1: because then the squad had this big press conference, and

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Speaker 1: then they are on the shows in the morning, and

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Speaker 1: they are becoming the face of the Democratic Party. And

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Speaker 1: that is the worst nightmare of Nancy Pelosi and all

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Speaker 1: of the twenty twenty presidential candidates. Should It probably isn't

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Speaker 1: for Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren some of the others.

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Speaker 1: But what Trump has done has made the twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: election a choice ultimately that is going to be put

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Speaker 1: to all of these candidates of well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: are you with the squad or are you with the

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Speaker 1: rest of the country. Second of all, if you're a

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Speaker 1: Democratic presidential contender and the squad comes out with their

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Speaker 1: positions and it's not like they're going to be muzzled

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Speaker 1: because they're running their own campaigns for reelection in the House,

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Speaker 1: do you agree with AOC's position on XYZ? Do you

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Speaker 1: stand with anti Semitic, anti American, ungrateful Representative Ilhan Omar?

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Speaker 1: Do you believe the sort of crass identity politics played

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Speaker 1: by Ianna Presley. In fact, let's go to quip two.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to quip two of Ianna Presley and what

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Speaker 1: he had to say this week. So, if you're going

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Speaker 1: on to come to this table, and if all of

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Speaker 1: you that have aspirations of running for all this, for

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Speaker 1: whatever lived experience and identity that you represent, if you

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Speaker 1: are not prepared to come to that table and to

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Speaker 1: represent that voice, don't come. Because we don't need any

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Speaker 1: more brown faces that don't want to be a brown voice.

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Speaker 1: We don't need black faces that don't want to be

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Speaker 1: a black voice. We don't need muslim that don't want

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Speaker 1: to be a Muslim voice. We don't need queers that

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Speaker 1: don't want to be a queer voice. Hold on, we did.

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Speaker 1: And if you're worried about being marginalized and stereotyped police

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Speaker 1: don't even show up. What could be a more unifying

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Speaker 1: message than that speak with the voice of your chosen

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Speaker 1: identity group. Because that's what America is, a collection of groups.

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Speaker 1: Right wrong? What about American voices, Congresswoman Presley, We're also

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Speaker 1: supposed to, supposed to speak with one voice, one unified voice,

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Speaker 1: united by our shared ideals, values and principles. We're not groups,

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Speaker 1: we're individuals. We can think for ourselves. This is what

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Speaker 1: the Democrats are going to be forced to embrace and

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Speaker 1: to answer questions dealing with and you can see right

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Speaker 1: now they're already very uncomfortable with this because on the

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Speaker 1: left there is this civil war going on, and it's generational,

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Speaker 1: it's ideological, and it's tactical. It's the young Turks versus

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Speaker 1: the old guard. It's the lifetime leftists who want to

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Speaker 1: stay in power and push as far as they can

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Speaker 1: to the left while again retaining their seats versus people

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Speaker 1: who don't care and they want to tear it all down,

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Speaker 1: and they're willing to engage in open warfare against the

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Speaker 1: power seats in their party. And then there's a tactical issue.

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Speaker 1: So it is these young Turks who are going in

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Speaker 1: and torpedoing chosen legislation of the real power in their party.

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Speaker 1: There was a series of very telling tweets this week.

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Speaker 1: They came out regard what the quote unquote establishment democrats

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Speaker 1: actually believe. This is from Jake Tapper, this threat of CNN.

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Speaker 1: He says, quoting one House Democrat. The President won this

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Speaker 1: one of this debate between Trump versus the squad. Quote.

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Speaker 1: What the President has done is politically brilliant. Pelosi was

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Speaker 1: trying to marginalize these folks, and the President has now

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Speaker 1: identified the entire party with them unquote. Another issue, there's

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Speaker 1: a second Democrat representative speaking quote. The President's words and

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Speaker 1: actions speak for themselves. We need to focus on the

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Speaker 1: issues that got them here, them being these Democrats, jobs, healthcare,

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Speaker 1: instead of the issues the President brings up deliberately. Anything

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Speaker 1: that takes away from bread and butter issues is playing

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Speaker 1: into his hands. Other House Democrats, quoting Tapper's tweet, are

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Speaker 1: conflicted about having to defend the squad given things they've

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Speaker 1: said and done. House Dems cited talk of supporting challengers

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Speaker 1: to incumbent Dems in primaries, AOC's use of the term

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Speaker 1: concentration camps antise made comments by tolib and Omar. Tapper

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Speaker 1: says this perceived selective outrage rankled some Dems. Quote. Everybody

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Speaker 1: was completely outraged by what the President said unquote said

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Speaker 1: House damn number three anonymous quote, and everybody thought it

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Speaker 1: was appropriate to criticize him. But this was the first

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Speaker 1: time the House has taken action to criticize him in

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Speaker 1: any way. We couldn't even bring ourselves to have a

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Speaker 1: resolution exclusively condemning anti Semitism uttered by one of those members, Omar.

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Speaker 1: But we leapt to their defense here. Let's stop it

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Speaker 1: there for a second. Another critical point here. They totally

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Speaker 1: jumped the shark. They went overboard because they condemned the

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Speaker 1: president by names, specifically over comments that they portrayed as racist,

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Speaker 1: merely because of the person or the people receiving the criticism.

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Speaker 1: But meanwhile, when Congresswoman Omar clearly made jew hating comments,

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Speaker 1: they could not condemn her by name, They could not

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Speaker 1: condemn specifically her speech. They had to water it down.

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Speaker 1: The establishment caved because of the progressives in their party

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Speaker 1: and in particular the Squad. The squad set the terms

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Speaker 1: of the agenda. They had to completely depreciate, watered down

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Speaker 1: their quote unquote condemnation, and they made it of all

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Speaker 1: hate speech quote unquote, and they did not define Representative

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Speaker 1: Omar as one of those purveyors of hate speech quote unquote.

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Speaker 1: And let's forget about the fact that hate speech is

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Speaker 1: not a concept that exists in the American idea of speech.

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Speaker 1: It's something the left has tried to create so that

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Speaker 1: someday they can criminalize quote unquote hate speech, which is

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Speaker 1: translated loosely as speech they don't like from people who

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Speaker 1: they don't like. So this might make for great politics

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Speaker 1: for President Trump in the short term, and I would

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Speaker 1: suggest that it does. He has forced the party, the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party, into an embrace and if he runs against

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Speaker 1: the Squad in twenty twenty, that's a win. But long term,

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Speaker 1: I believe the Squad will be the Democratic Party. And

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Speaker 1: why do I say that, Well, the left has been

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Speaker 1: pushing in the direction of the Squad basically since progressivism

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Speaker 1: really began to take it one hundred years ago, as

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Speaker 1: Buck has spoken about at length from Woodrow Wilson on.

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Speaker 1: But now the Overton window has shifted in real time

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Speaker 1: to where Nancy Pelosi, a lifelong far leftist, is now

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Speaker 1: considered moderate and establishment. That's the Overton windows shifting, and

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Speaker 1: the people who make up the Squad, or the exact

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Speaker 1: people that I went to school with, all of my

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Speaker 1: classmates I went to Columbia University. My classmates were exactly

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Speaker 1: like them, had the same views of America, had the

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Speaker 1: same disdain and loathing for our founding principles, had this

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Speaker 1: same regressive progressive ideology. And it's really important to say

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Speaker 1: that progressive is a Progressivism is regressive by the way,

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Speaker 1: because it takes us back. It takes the power out

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Speaker 1: of you, the individual, and gives it to them the state.

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Speaker 1: The state used to be the king, the monarch. Now

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Speaker 1: the state is them. It's all about taking power from you,

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Speaker 1: the individual and redistributing it to them, and they can

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Speaker 1: lavish it on their friends and continue to get reelected

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Speaker 1: them way. It's a power play. Their whole governing ethos

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Speaker 1: is that America is racist, misogynist, homophobic, deplorable, irredeemable, colonialist, occupationalist,

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Speaker 1: and that you all we all bitterly cling to our

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Speaker 1: guns and religion. That is the view that dominates in

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Speaker 1: the corridors of power in this country. Silicon Valley gone.

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Speaker 1: The corporate world is completely cowed to these social justice warriors.

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Speaker 1: The ranks of government are filled with people who fundamentally

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Speaker 1: believe this. The media is gone, most of our cultural

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Speaker 1: institutions are gone. In the long run, the regressive progressives

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Speaker 1: pose a dire threat to us. Again. The purpose is

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Speaker 1: redistribution of wealth and power under the banner of justice

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Speaker 1: for themselves at home, and also redistribution of wealth and

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Speaker 1: power and redistributive justice to our enemies abroad. Because if

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Speaker 1: America is a fundamentally evil, awful place, and our founding

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Speaker 1: principle are the most backwards of all. Then it all

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Speaker 1: needs to be turned on its head. That is their

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Speaker 1: perverse worldview. And I believe that the squad is ultimately

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Speaker 1: poised to triumph over the Democratic Party if it hasn't

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Speaker 1: already started. And by the way, you can look at

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Speaker 1: that in proxy terms by looking at how many members

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Speaker 1: of the House are in the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Guess what,

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Speaker 1: it's over ninety right now. When the CPC started in

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Speaker 1: the early nineties, there were six six to ninety ninety

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Speaker 1: out of two hundred and some odd in the Democratic

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Speaker 1: majority in the House. They're almost at a majority of

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Speaker 1: their party, and the next generation and the generation after that,

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Speaker 1: it all goes in one direction, regressive progressivism. This has

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Speaker 1: been wangern In for Buck Sexon. We'll take a quick

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Speaker 1: break backward after this. Many who debated them hope there

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Speaker 1: now do neither. There now seems to be a broad

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Speaker 1: acceptance of the racial divide as a permanent state. While

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Speaker 1: we once celebrated those things that we have in common

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Speaker 1: with our fellow citizens who did not share our race,

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Speaker 1: so many now are triumphal about our differences, finding little

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Speaker 1: of anything in common. Indeed, some go so far as

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Speaker 1: to all but define each of us by our race

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Speaker 1: and establish the range of our thinking and our opinions,

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Speaker 1: if not our deeds, by our color. I, for one,

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Speaker 1: see this in much the same way I saw our

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Speaker 1: denial of rights as nothing short of a denial of

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Speaker 1: our humanity. Not one of us has the Gospel, nor

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Speaker 1: are our opinions based upon some revealed precepts to be

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Speaker 1: taken as faith. As thinking rational individuals, not one of

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Speaker 1: us can claim infallibility, even from the overwhelming advantage of

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Speaker 1: hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking. This makes it all the

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Speaker 1: more important that our fallible ideas be examined as all

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Speaker 1: ideas are in the realm of reason, not as some

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Speaker 1: doctrinal or racial heresy. None of us, none of us,

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Speaker 1: have been appointed by God or appointed God. And if

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Speaker 1: any of us has, then my question is, why hasn't

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Speaker 1: he or she solved all these problems? That was justice

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Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas in nineteen twenty one years ago, giving the

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Speaker 1: strongest response possible to the words of Congresswoman Iana Presley,

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Speaker 1: And this has been Weingarten here in for Buck Sexton.

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Speaker 1: I really do believe that Justice Clarence Thomas provided the answer,

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Speaker 1: the best response possible to those who say that you

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Speaker 1: can't criticize ideas based upon the person who came up

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Speaker 1: with the ideas in the first place, that you are

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Speaker 1: de facto racist if you challenge someone on the merits

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Speaker 1: of their views. And in fact, look, Nancy Pelosi has

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Speaker 1: been lumped in with President Trump as a racist because

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Speaker 1: she went after the squad. If you see the world

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Speaker 1: through an identity politics prism, honestly, then you're going to

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Speaker 1: evaluate everything through that prism, and it makes civil discourse

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Speaker 1: debate impossible. It means the science is settled. When it

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Speaker 1: comes to any argument, it's the same view that there's

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Speaker 1: your truth and my truth. No, there is objective truth

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Speaker 1: and things that are false. What Justice Thomas calls for

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Speaker 1: is judging viewpoints and individuals on the merits as individuals,

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Speaker 1: not as races. Not in all of the different identity

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Speaker 1: groups that Congresswoman Presley sliced and diced and that failed

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Speaker 1: senatorial runner Stacy Abrams and Georgia. Even though she'll never

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Speaker 1: admit that she lost, she says, she says identity politics

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Speaker 1: wins and identity politics one. She's written a very lengthy,

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Speaker 1: pseudo intellectual piece arguing for identity politics. Identity politics is

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Speaker 1: a recipe for tearing the country apart. If you divide

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Speaker 1: people by groups, definitionally, you're dividing them. We're supposed to

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Speaker 1: judge everyone on the content of their own character. Has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with some characteristics that you have no

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Speaker 1: control over. But they are cynical. They want to play

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Speaker 1: on differences between people. They want to divide us as

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Speaker 1: opposed to treating us all as Americans. They want to

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Speaker 1: make you this kind of voice and you that kind

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Speaker 1: of voice by calling their opponents racist. At every last turn,

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Speaker 1: just by dint of who makes the argument and who

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Speaker 1: the argument is made against, they devalue that term of racism,

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Speaker 1: which hurts real victims. The disaster for the country an

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Speaker 1: absolute disaster. And I want to make clear something. When

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Speaker 1: I talk about the fact that this is all a

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Speaker 1: power play, they actually make it very clear themselves. It's

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Speaker 1: a very very telling piece in the Washington Post profiling

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Speaker 1: aoc is chief of staff who's got into all these

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Speaker 1: TIFFs with Democratic leadership by accusing them essentially of being racist,

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Speaker 1: including Speaker Pelosi and her team's he's been a huge

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Speaker 1: thorn in their side. His name is Saka Chakrabarti, and

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Speaker 1: in this profile they talk about him having a conversation

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Speaker 1: and exchange with someone who works for Washington Governor j

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Speaker 1: Insley on climate issues, and he's praising him for essentially

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Speaker 1: a Green New Deal like plan platform that he's put forth.

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Speaker 1: Chaco Rabarty says this, quoting The interesting thing about the

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Speaker 1: Green New Deal, he said, is it wasn't originally a

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Speaker 1: climate thing at all. Unquote. The person created that startling

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Speaker 1: notion with an attentive poker face quote unquote. Do you

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Speaker 1: guys think of it as a climate thing? Chaco Robardi continued,

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Speaker 1: because we really think of it as a how do

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Speaker 1: you change the entire economy thing? Could it be any

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Speaker 1: more clear? So this person, his interlocutor, responds, I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's dual. It is both rising to the challenge

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Speaker 1: that is existential around climate, and it is voting an

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Speaker 1: economy that contains more prosperity, more sustainability in that prosperity,

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Speaker 1: and more broadly shared prosperity, equitability and justice throughout. He continued, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know we're not done when it comes to a

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Speaker 1: nationwide economic mobilization. There's more to come on this front

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Speaker 1: and other key components. We're going to be rolling forward

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Speaker 1: to speak to some of the key justice elements of this,

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Speaker 1: ensuring every community has got a part of this. And

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Speaker 1: the reporter who is watching this back and forth says,

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Speaker 1: this nationwide economic mobilization, justice community. Everything is intersectional now,

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Speaker 1: including decarbonization. What does that mean. It's about taking power

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Speaker 1: from you under all of these different guises, and part

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Speaker 1: of that is through dividing us all. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about one member of the squad coming up next.

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Speaker 1: This is Ben Weegarden in for Buck Sexton on the

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Speaker 1: Buck Sexton Show. Welcome back to the Buck Sexton Show.

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Speaker 1: This is Ben Weingarden in for Buck Sexton. Appreciate you

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Speaker 1: taking the time to spend your Friday night with us,

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Speaker 1: if you have a great weekend lined up. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about the squad before, and I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about perhaps the most radical of squadron members,

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Speaker 1: Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. The big story is surrounding Congresswoman Omar

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Speaker 1: this week. Besides the fact that she disputed that her

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Speaker 1: comments were anti Semitic, that she made before about Israel

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Speaker 1: and about it's all about the Benjamin's and dual loyalty

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Speaker 1: Kinnard smearing millions of people. Story was that picked up

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Speaker 1: by the media anyway, is that President Trump talked about

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Speaker 1: this potential marriage to her biological brother and the media

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Speaker 1: reported this as Trump makes false claim about Omar's family

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Speaker 1: and their rationale was Omar has denied this claim. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's not the story. There is actually substantial evidence out

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Speaker 1: there of pretty much definitive criminality regarding her marriages and

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Speaker 1: potentially this bizarre allegation, but which is far better substantiated

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Speaker 1: than Russia Gate, the biggest story of the century. Why

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Speaker 1: they don't want to dig into this story because they

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Speaker 1: want to make this about bigotry. You see, they want

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Speaker 1: to use the identity politics as a vail to protect

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Speaker 1: Congresswoman Omar and use as a cudgel against her opponents.

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Speaker 1: Why they want to protect a bigot by crying bigotry

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Speaker 1: out of cowardice and also a belief that they need

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Speaker 1: the Omar constituency whoever that is. So, there are these

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Speaker 1: allegations out there, and I want to point specifically to

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Speaker 1: the work of David Steinberg, formerly of PJ Media and

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Speaker 1: Scott Johnson at Powerline and prasm Sunder formerly at Alpha News.

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Speaker 1: They dug into this story for the last three years,

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Speaker 1: and only now is the Star Tribune, a left wing paper,

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Speaker 1: a very pro Omar paper actually saying you know what,

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Speaker 1: maybe there is something to these allegations. And the backstory

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Speaker 1: is that the only real reason that they're reporting on

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Speaker 1: this now is because it was exposed in the campaign

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Speaker 1: finance violations that Omar was involved in involving payments surrounding

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Speaker 1: advice around some of these family issues, political payments out

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Speaker 1: of campaign funds. Potentially that in this case, docket showed

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Speaker 1: that she built a crisis management team when it started

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Speaker 1: to break a few years ago that there may have

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Speaker 1: been something strange going on with her marriages, that in

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Speaker 1: internal emails, her crisis management committee was talking about the

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Speaker 1: fact that they needed to make sure that the Star

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Speaker 1: Tribune quashes any of these stories. It's been exposed now,

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Speaker 1: so the Star Tribune has to respond to retain any

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Speaker 1: shred of dignity, and only because the Star Tribune is

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Speaker 1: talking about it does potentially the rest of the media

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Speaker 1: have to report, but they're not doing a good job

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Speaker 1: of it because there is so much information out there

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Speaker 1: it is overwhelming. And David Steinberg released a piece through

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Speaker 1: Powerline yesterday that goes through in great detail all of

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Speaker 1: the elements backing the notion that Elan Omar did in

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Speaker 1: fact marry her brother and then in the process committed

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Speaker 1: a whole slew of crimes, as Steinberg suggests, and a

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Speaker 1: quote here probable cause to investigate Omar for eight instances

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Speaker 1: of perjury, immigration fraud, marriage fraud, up to eight years

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Speaker 1: of state and federal attacks fraud, two years of federal

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Speaker 1: student well and fraud, and even bigamy quote unquote. Now

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Speaker 1: this has been portrayed from the start as right wing journalists. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: facts are facts, and the folks who have printed these

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Speaker 1: stories admit what their political leanings are. But let's look

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Speaker 1: at the substance and the substance of the case that

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Speaker 1: Steinberg lays out, building upon his work and the work

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Speaker 1: of others over the last three years. Three years is substantial.

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Speaker 1: Here's a few of the items. Verifiable UK and US

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Speaker 1: marriage records, verifiable address records, timestamp, traceable archived online communications,

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Speaker 1: background check, confirmations of social securities and numbers and birthdates,

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Speaker 1: archived court documents signed under penalty of perjury, photos which

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Speaker 1: can be examined to roll out digital manipulation. The twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen Minnesota Campaign Finance and Public Disclosure Board investigation which

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Speaker 1: found Omar filed illegal joint returns tax returns with a

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Speaker 1: man who is not her husband in at least twenty

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Speaker 1: fourteen and twenty fifteen, and the evidence goes on substantially

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Speaker 1: from there, including perjury evidence that stands on its own.

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Speaker 1: After June twenty eleven, Omar was clearly in contact with

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Speaker 1: the only man in either the US or the UK

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Speaker 1: with the same name and birthdate as the man she married.

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Speaker 1: She was clearly in contact with several people who were

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Speaker 1: in contact with him claim that she wasn't during that time.

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Speaker 1: There's a slew of evidence here. You can examine the evidence.

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Speaker 1: It's all right there. Authorities should examine the evidence, media

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Speaker 1: should examine the evidence. But they're not. And let me

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Speaker 1: tell you why this is such a critical issue. It's

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Speaker 1: not just the massive felonious activity. It's the fact that

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Speaker 1: when you combine that activity with the anti American jew

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Speaker 1: hatred and conversely, on the other side of the coin,

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Speaker 1: the pro Islamist ties as I lay it out in

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Speaker 1: an article at the Federalists in great detail. I'll point

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Speaker 1: you there. It's titled why is ilhan Omar's collusion with

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Speaker 1: Islamists acceptable? And it goes through the links, ties and

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Speaker 1: or coordination quote unquote that she's had with all sorts

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Speaker 1: of people associated with the global jihadas movement, not to

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Speaker 1: mention her own rhetoric relating to it, and her defense

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Speaker 1: of jihadis calling for leniency asking a federal judge for it.

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Speaker 1: Put all of these things together, and ilhan Omar would

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Speaker 1: never ever ever get a security clearance. She sits on

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Speaker 1: the House Foreign Affairs Committee. This is a national security threat.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing more compromising than her ties and the criminal

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Speaker 1: activity in her background. Be back in just a minute.

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Speaker 1: This has Ben one Garden in for Buck Sex and

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Speaker 1: on the Buck Sexon Show. This is Ben Weegarden in

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Speaker 1: for Buck sexon on the Buck Sexton Show. Appreciate you

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Speaker 1: taking the time here on this Friday, steamy summer evening

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Speaker 1: here in New York. All right, Well, we talked about

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Speaker 1: the squad and Trump versus the Squad and what it

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Speaker 1: means in twenty twenty and beyond. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about something that has percolated that flows from the squad's

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Speaker 1: disastrous worldview. And that is one of the recent Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court decisions that got a lot of attention for a

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Speaker 1: couple of days, but not really in my view regarding

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Speaker 1: the most important aspects of it and what it means

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Speaker 1: to our republican system of government with real practical consequences.

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Speaker 1: And that is the census citizenship question. And we've spoken

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Speaker 1: about this before on this program. This is an issue

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Speaker 1: that I started following back in twenty eighteen in part

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Speaker 1: because I saw people on the left clamoring to it,

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Speaker 1: in particular Eric Holder, former Attorney General under President Obama,

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Speaker 1: and it became clear that this was actually about protecting

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Speaker 1: and preserving information and thus power on the left. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk for a second about what the population count does

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Speaker 1: for you. The census count of people includes all people, legal, illegal, legal,

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Speaker 1: non citizens, everyone in between, and those numbers are used

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Speaker 1: to break out congressional districts and also at the state level,

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Speaker 1: state legislative districts and the like, and other offices as well.

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Speaker 1: Based upon the total population count, that's how seats are apportioned. Also,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of billions of dollars are allocated down to these

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Speaker 1: districts based upon the population counts. So the census count

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Speaker 1: is hugely meaningful when it comes to where your tax

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Speaker 1: dollars go and how much your vote is worth. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have a system of one man, one vote, but

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Speaker 1: the fact that the population count in total is used

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Speaker 1: to determine these districts flies in the face of that.

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Speaker 1: It actually debutes your vote because let's say I have

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Speaker 1: a district that's a bright blue district that has two

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand illegal aliens in it. Those go into the

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Speaker 1: population count. In this way, we actually have foreign interference

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Speaker 1: in our elections, foreign influence in our elections because non citizens,

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Speaker 1: including people whose first act was to break our laws,

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Speaker 1: to violate our sovereignty, count when it comes to our

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Speaker 1: districts and the money that goes down to them where

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Speaker 1: your tax dollars are redistributed. All President Trump wanted to

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Speaker 1: do was ask a simple question, is this person a

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Speaker 1: citizen of the United States? And you've probably heard that

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00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: this was on the census from eighteen twenty or nineteen fifty,

430
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: and then there's been variations of these citizenship questions on

431
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: the census every decade pretty much since, including under the

432
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: Obama administration, they had this long form census, it's called

433
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: the ACS American Community Survey, went out to a percentage

434
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: of Americans, still millions of Americans, asking them a question

435
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: just like this. It's a pretty basic thing to have

436
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: account of citizens and non citizens. And you couldn't incriminate

437
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: yourself as an illegal alien. You couldn't actually answer, not

438
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: a citizen here, illegally. But the left ginned up this

439
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: narrative that this was about, well, for one thing, potentially

440
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: trying to go round up non citizens, even though you

441
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: couldn't distinguish between illegal and legal non citizens. And second,

442
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: that this was about trying to scare non citizens into

443
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: not responding given that potential fear. This was BS. Everyone

444
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: knows it was BS. This was fear mongering, and fear

445
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: mongering tinged with the cries of racist Well. Ultimately, there

446
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: were lawsuits filed against the Trump administration and the Commerce

447
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: Department in particular, which oversees administers the census, and there

448
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: were numerous challenges to it. Ultimately they went up to

449
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, and Supreme Court, in a critical ruling

450
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: said the following, the census citizenship question is constitutional. The

451
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: Commerce Department representing the Trump administration, has a right to

452
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: ask it. Obviously, it's been there for a hundred, two

453
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: hundred years. They also said that it was lawfully put

454
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: into practice. So, in other words, this agency of the

455
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: Commerce Department, the process by which they put the question

456
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: in the census was lawful. There's something called the Administrative

457
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: Procedures Act that governs these sorts of actions. They said

458
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: it was a reasonable question, and there was reasonable justification

459
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: for putting it in there. That should have been it constitutional, lawful,

460
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: But no. Chief Justice Roberts ruled in a five to

461
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: four ruling against the Trump administration on what grounds on

462
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: an invented principle, an invented principle that even though this

463
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: was constitutional, even though this was lawful, the Trump administration

464
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: wasn't really being honest about why they wanted to include

465
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: the question. In other words, the Supreme Court, the highest

466
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: court in the land, engaged in mind reading. They threw

467
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: out the constitution, they throughout the law, and they said,

468
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: we think the Trump administration has nefarious designs. As the

469
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: left wing activist who brought these suits argued, here's what

470
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: Justice Clarence Thomas said in an opinion that agreed with

471
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: the Court on the constitutionality and the lawfulness and then dissented,

472
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: and he was joined, by the way, by Justices Gorsage

473
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: and Kavanaugh. Quote. Our only role in this case is

474
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: to decide whether the secretary complied with the law and

475
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: gave a reasoned explanation for his decision. The Court correctly

476
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: answers these questions in the affirmative ought to end our inquiry.

477
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: So what happened, Well, here's how Justice Thomas describes it,

478
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: and I'll punched In an article that I wrote in

479
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: The Federalist about this, it was titled why John Roberts's

480
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: citizenship decision is legally and politically corrupt. Here's why it was,

481
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: quoting Justice Thomas for the first time ever, and justices,

482
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: by the way, don't usually say for the first time

483
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: ever unprecedented, as he's about to for the first time ever,

484
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: the Court invalidates an agency action, the Commerce Department's action,

485
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: solely because it questions the sincerity of the agencies otherwise

486
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: adequate rationale. The Court's holding reflects an unprecedented departure from

487
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: our deferential review of discretionary agency decisions. Unable to identify

488
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: any legal problem with the Secretary of commerces reasoning, the

489
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: Court imputes one by concluding that he must not be

490
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: telling the truth. The Court therefore upholds the decision of

491
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: the district court that also wrote against the Trump administration,

492
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: which in turn was transparently based on the application of

493
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: an administration specific standard. What does that mean? An administration

494
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: specific standard? Since when do courts? Since when do judges

495
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 1: apply specific standards to any individual, separate and apart from

496
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: everyone else. Why does the Trump administration get held to

497
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: one standard and other administrations to other standards? Thomas goes on,

498
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: This Court has never held an agency decision arbitrary and

499
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: capricious and therefore unlawful on the ground that it's supporting

500
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: rationale was quote unquote pretextual. Nor has it previously just

501
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: suggested that this was even a possibility. Again, Supreme Court

502
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: justices don't toss around unprecedented, never happened before administration specific standard.

503
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: This is radical stuff. What does it mean if there's

504
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: an administration specific standard at the Supreme Court, then we

505
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: don't really have a rule of law anymore. One president

506
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: gets treated one way, another president gets treated another way.

507
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: Do you think that Barack Obama the courts would have said,

508
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: you know what, that's lawful, it's constitutional, but we don't

509
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: think that you were really being honest and what your

510
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: real rationale was behind your constitutional, unlawful decision. Does anyone

511
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: think that would have passed muster If there are different

512
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: standards for different people, if there's a double standard, then

513
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: there is no standard of justice. So it's really fascinating

514
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: all of these people who love to attack the Trump

515
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: administration and say they're violating the institutions and norms and principles. Well,

516
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: this is about the biggest violation of an institution, of

517
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: a norm, of a principle of justice that you could

518
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: have and we get screwed as a result of it

519
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: because we as citizens are not able to be represented

520
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: by the administration on account of unelected judges, and because

521
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: we bear the price of not knowing the truth, of

522
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: not knowing the information that would be helpful of who

523
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: is living among us. How much do they influence our

524
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: political power? And by the way, what does it tell

525
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: you about what the incentives of politicians are who stand

526
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: to bene fit from districts with large illegal alien and

527
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: non citizen populations. It's almost like there's actually a plan

528
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: behind having sanctuary cities. It means more political power for Democrats.

529
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: But even if it didn't, the basic principle of knowing

530
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: who is living among us is common sense. It's right there,

531
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 1: it's historically reasonable, it's constitutional, it's lawful. And then why

532
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: did Justice Roberts rule as he did here? You have

533
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: to ask yourself. And the only thing that I can

534
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: think of is three words orange man bad. That was

535
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: the court's rationale here, and the Supreme Court should never

536
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: have a rationale like that. Injustice Roberts talks about dedication

537
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: to star a decisive which is precedent. Even if precedent's bad,

538
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: we stick to it. Thomas disagrees with him, rightfully, in

539
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 1: my view, he believes in the importance of the independence

540
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: of the judiciary. Well, the judiciary could not have put

541
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: their finger on the scale more than in applying a

542
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: quote unquote administration specific standard. The only silver lining in

543
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: this decision for the rule of law for citizens of

544
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: the United States, for anyone who cares about the rule

545
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: of law and our republican system of government, is that

546
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: if you actually applied the logic of the court here,

547
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: that they can overrule agency actions by mind reading well,

548
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: then you can use this to block any administrative action

549
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: from any president. Now I have a feeling this administration

550
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: specific standard will only apply to one administration, and that's

551
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: this one. But we all pay the price of that.

552
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: We all pay the price when the institutions violate their

553
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: own norms and principles and don't do their job and

554
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: don't have fidelity to the Constitution on our behalf. This

555
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: has Ben Winegarden in for buck Sexton back after this.

556
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the buck Sexton Show. This is Ben

557
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: Weinegarden in four buck Sexton here at the top of

558
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: our two. Hope you're enjoying your drive home, hopefully to

559
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: a nice weekend at the beach up in the mountains

560
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: the like. Meanwhile, in the real world, very serious goings

561
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 1: on and one of the major stories that has been

562
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: completely dwarfed in all of the issues of the squad

563
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: versus the President back and forth twitter wars, which we

564
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: discussed Laron will discuss a bit again later in the

565
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: episode concerns the goings on in the case of General

566
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: Michael Flynn. Now you might be wondering, how is this

567
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: case still going on in the first place. Well, actually,

568
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: it's very live even though the Special Council's work has

569
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: wound down, and there are actually two cases associated with

570
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: General Flynn concerning his activities prior to becoming National Security Advisor.

571
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 1: And I think ultimately what we're going to find out,

572
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: as we continue to dig deeper into the weeds and

573
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: as more and more extraordinary events continue to transpire with

574
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: this case, is that this was a set. This was

575
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: the leading edge of the attack on not just President

576
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: Trump and his presidency, but the counter attack to what

577
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: the political establishment and in particular the national security and

578
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: foreign policy establishment, was trying to do to counter the

579
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: Trump administration. In other words, the Trump administration wanted to

580
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: completely turn on its head many of the assumptions that

581
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: had been conventional wisdom for decades in Washington, DC. He

582
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: posed a threat to them, and going at National Security

583
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: Advisor Michael Flynn and him being the first domino to fall,

584
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: they felt might topple over this entire presidency. But meanwhile,

585
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: there have been simply incredible, completely peculiar developments that have transpired.

586
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: As I mentioned in both of the two cases in

587
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: which General Flynn as involved, and someone who has been

588
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: following this very very closely over months and explaining all

589
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: of these details is Margot Cleveland. Margo is a senior

590
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: contributor to the Federalist Great Publication. I'm a senior contributor

591
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: to the Federalist as well. She served for nearly twenty

592
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: five years as a permanent law clark for a federal

593
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: appellate judge on the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. She

594
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: has been following these two cases very closely. Margot, you're

595
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: on the Bucks Extent Show. Thanks so much for joining us.

596
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Ben. Okay, so let's go back. I

597
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: want to start before we get into the litany of

598
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: events that have transpired in just the last few weeks,

599
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: including probably the biggest one from a headline perspective, which

600
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: is that General Flynn actually went ahead and fired his

601
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: prior legal counsel. Let's go back to the sentencing hearing

602
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: that happened several months back. Speak a little bit about

603
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: what transpired during that hearing. So the last sentencing hearing

604
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: that they were just talking about when they should go

605
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: forward with the General Flynn sentencing, and you recall that

606
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: he had pled guilty to one count of making false

607
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: statements to the FBI about his conversations with the Russian ambassador,

608
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: and at that hearing they said whether there were a

609
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: couple different hearings, and I kind of confused which one's which,

610
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: But there was one that I think happened in December

611
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: where the judge Sullivan seemed to indicate he was going

612
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: to put Flynn in jail, and they decided, Flynn decided,

613
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: we're going to wait, We're going to continue to cooperate

614
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: and then we'll come back. And when they had a

615
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: follow up sentencing hearing, they said, you know, Flynn's gonna

616
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: he's still working with us, and we need a little

617
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 1: bit more time. And the delay was that there is

618
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: this related case going on in the Eastern District of

619
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: Virginia which involved Flynn's former co founder of Flynn Intelligence

620
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: or Intel Group. And I have no idea how to

621
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: pronounce this lasting because I don't see much, but it

622
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: was something brought the con I believe, and Flynn was,

623
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: for for all representations, going to be testifying at that trial.

624
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: So that was where we were for some time. The

625
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: sentencing was to lay to let that conclude, And it's

626
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: important to point out a couple of things. First of all,

627
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: the conversations for which General Flynn played guilty were perfectly

628
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: lawful conversations. They were about US policy with respect to sanctions,

629
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: for one thing, and also US policy in support actually

630
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: of our ally Israel, which was lost in much of

631
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: the conversations about this. And then in the statement of

632
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: offenses which listed the charges against General Flynn, there was

633
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: a comment in there about Farah violations, that is, Foreign

634
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: Agent Registration Act violations and General Flynn being effectively dishonest

635
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: in his forms associated with Farah, and that relates to

636
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: this other case. Now, since that point, what has happened

637
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: in the case in the Eastern District that you spoke

638
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: of with respect to General Flynn. So we have several developments,

639
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, he fired his old attorney, and

640
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: Sydney Poll, who was former prosecutor then defense attorney, just

641
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: really a sharp attorney who's dealt with prosecutorial misconduct, took over.

642
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: And the case in the Eastern District of Virginia was

643
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: scheduled to start in mid July, which was when Sydney

644
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: went before Judge Sullivan in Flynn's case and said, we

645
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: need more time for me to get ready to go

646
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: with sentencing. And we have this other case that I'm

647
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: really working on preparing for so the Sullivan set the

648
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: sentencing hearing or i should say a status hearing to

649
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: see where they were for the end of August, and

650
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: Sydney is Sydney poal. The attorney is working with the

651
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia to prepare Judge

652
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: Flynn for his testimony for the trial that began on

653
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: Monday this week. And we have material that we learned

654
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: for the first last week Monday, but it was actually

655
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: going on in in the end of June, but it

656
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: was all sealed. But last week Monday, we find out

657
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: that there was this falling out between Flynn and the prosecutor.

658
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: So Flynn's been cooperating with them for about two years,

659
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden we find out the prosecutors said,

660
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: we're no longer calling Flynn and we now think that

661
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: he is a co conspirator, even though the whole time

662
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: they said, no, he's not a co conspirator. No, he's

663
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: not a co conspirator. So that is what was going

664
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 1: on in the Eastern District of Virginia that something happened.

665
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: And one of the articles I wrote for The Federalist

666
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: is kind of the guide to it, because when this

667
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: broke lass Monday, I was like, what happened. I went

668
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: through all of the filings to try to piece together

669
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: what happened. And there were filings by Miss Powe and

670
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: by the government and also by the defendants in the

671
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: Virginia case affidavits, so you could piece got it what happened,

672
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: And basically it's this. The prosecutors wanted Flynn to testify

673
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: that he knowingly filed false statements related to the far registration,

674
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: and Miss Palla said he can't do that. That's not

675
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: true and he's not going to lie. And you had

676
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: the prosecutors come back saying, wait, he said in a

677
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: statement of offense that he did this, and as she

678
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: pointed out, no, he said that the statement had material

679
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: false statements. That's based on what we know now. That's

680
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: based on what he knows is the truth after all

681
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: of this evidence about what other people knew, based on

682
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: what he's read now. And as she may clear in

683
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: her filings, I gave this. He gave this, I should

684
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: say Flynn gave this to his attorneys and said, here,

685
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: file this. This is all the information, and it is

686
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: to you to put this together. I don't know anything

687
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: about far I don't know what we need to say.

688
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: So his statement of offense, all he was saying is yes,

689
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: what was in there was false, but he never said

690
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: that I knew it was false at the time that

691
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: I assigned it. And that is what happened as far

692
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: as the falling out. That is what caused the prosecutor

693
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, we're not calling him, and we're going

694
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: to now say he's a co conspirator. And I want

695
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: to add to that. They also put Flynn Junior on

696
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: the witness list last minute, never called him, which shows

697
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 1: you where they're going. This looks very much as if

698
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 1: it's payback for Flynn refusing to say what the prosecutors

699
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: wanted him to say. Is that common or is that

700
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: prosecutorial abuse in your view? Oh boy, you know, I

701
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: don't have enough experience with the trial level to say

702
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: is this something that's common? I think and a lot

703
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: of prosecutors do play hardball, But it seems it seems

704
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: inappropriate here. Even if it's not a violation of the

705
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 1: ethics rule, it smells, especially since they had no intent,

706
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: or at least it appears as if they had no

707
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: intent of calling him. It's worth noting as well that

708
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: at that sentencing hearing that I mentioned where extraordinarily Judge Sullivan,

709
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: who's overseeing Flynn's case, wrongfully accused him of being a traitor.

710
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: But before that point he also gave Flynn the opportunity

711
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: to bring in an independent council to basically evaluate his

712
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: case and provide in effect, a second opinion. Now, Margot,

713
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: we're about to run up against a break shortly, so

714
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: I'd love to pick up this conversation on the other

715
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: side of it. Will you stay on with me? Absolutely? Okay,

716
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: very much, look forward to continuing the conversation. This is

717
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 1: Ben Weingerton in for Buck sexon here on the Buck

718
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: Sexton Show. Back after this, this is Ben Winegarton in

719
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: for Buck Sexton here on the Buck Sex Show. We've

720
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: been talking with Margo Cleveland, a senior contributor at the

721
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: Federalist who also served for nearly twenty five years as

722
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: a permanent law work for a Federal appellate judge on

723
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, and we have been

724
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: talking about the curious case of General Michael Flynn and

725
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: some of the recent goings on extraordinary recent goings on

726
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: in the two cases involving him, and before the break,

727
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: I was just mentioning the fact that Judge Sullivan, the

728
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: judge overseeing General Flynn's case, the case directly implicating him,

729
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: actually gave General Flynn the chance to bring in a

730
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: second council essentially to check the work of the prior

731
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: council and perhaps give him some competing advice. In part,

732
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,439
Speaker 1: I think because what Judge Sullivan saw was that Flynn's team,

733
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: all of a sudden at the end, was asking for

734
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: all of this information that seemed a little bit exculpatory,

735
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: one could argue with respect to General Flynn's case. So

736
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: I want to bring back Margo Cleveland and ask Margo,

737
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: what do you make of the judge giving him that

738
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: out essentially during that sentencing hearing. Sure, So I actually

739
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: interpreted that as him wanting to make sure that Flynn

740
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: was pleading guilty because he was guilty, because he knows

741
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: Judge Sullivan knows what's going on, which is there's a

742
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: lot of talk out there that Flynn only played because

743
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: for squeezing his son, and that, like you said, there

744
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 1: was nothing illegal about the conversation. Maybe he misspoke and

745
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: ATBI agents didn't really think he did it. So if

746
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: you actually read the transcript, Judge Sullivan starts out very now,

747
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: are you sure you want to plead? And I'll give

748
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: you alternative console, And then after Flynn goes and says yes,

749
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: I do, yes, I do know, I don't want a console.

750
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: That's where Sullivan kind of rips into him with that

751
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: false accusation of treason, which Judge Sullivan walked back later on.

752
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: So I think he was concerned about that. I think

753
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: though now Judge Sullivan is going to be even more concerned.

754
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: One of the things that was not clear, and I

755
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: do not believe had ever been brought to Judge Sullivan's attention,

756
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: is to that the attorneys in the Far matter, the

757
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: Covington attorneys who helped prepare the FAR filing, were also

758
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: the attorneys representing judge representing General Flynn in the special

759
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: Council case, which to me screams conflict of interest. And

760
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: Judge Sullivan did a really interesting thing. Oh boy, I'm

761
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: losing track of the weeks it must. I believe it

762
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: was earlier this week when he set a status hearing

763
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: and called the old Covington attorneys back into court, And

764
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 1: he also said, I'm just going to give you notice.

765
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to have a member of the DC bar

766
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: who's their epic specialist, come in and talk to you

767
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: about these epic rules which require Covington to turn over

768
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: the files to Sydney Paw. Now you'll find that in

769
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: the filings. Judge Sydney pal said to the Judge Sullivan,

770
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: we don't yet have all of them. I think that

771
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: was just a reason to get them in there to

772
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: push a little bit harder on this of was there

773
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: a conflict because under Sydney's filing, she said, we're not

774
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: going to have everything for a few weeks yet, but

775
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: Judge Sullivan didn't set the hearing until later. So the

776
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: fact that Judge Sullivan is getting this epics person here

777
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: and Covington attorneys there to discuss the obligation to turn

778
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: over file material that they'll already have kind of struck

779
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: me as I think he's a little bit more concerned

780
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: in other ways. So I think that that will be

781
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: the thing to be watching coming up is what happens

782
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: in I believe it's in August when Judge Sullivan has

783
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: Sydney Powe, the old attorney's there and is questioning them

784
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: with a bar representative as well, So I think that

785
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: that'll be an interesting development. And there is one other

786
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 1: development I did want to mention, Ben, if you have time,

787
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if you have any questions, Yeah, no, absolutely,

788
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: go ahead. The one thing I just wanted to point

789
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: out is that the idea of bringing in ethics officials

790
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: for these very senior lawyers at a top reputable law firm,

791
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: potentially over a conflict of interest in and of itself

792
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: is a remarkable fact. I just want to underscore that,

793
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: But feel free to go ahead, right, but I do

794
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: want to clarify he didn't call them in on the

795
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: conflicx issue. He called them in for not giving the document,

796
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: and to me that seems rather strange because by then

797
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: they're going to have the document. But the third development

798
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: that I think is huge is what happened last week's Friday,

799
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: when all of a sudden, there's a hearing in Virginia.

800
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: The defendants attorney says, we got this one sentence statement

801
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 1: right before the hearing, in which we're told that the

802
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: government is in possession of multiple independent pieces of information

803
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: relating to the Turkish government's efforts to influence the United

804
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: States policy on Turkey, and specifically about Michael Flynn and

805
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: his contacts with a codefendant who is actually in Turkey.

806
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: He's a fugitive. And the reason this is key is

807
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: that had never been provided to the defendant before Flynn's

808
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: attorneys testified on Tuesday that they had no idea what

809
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: he's talking about. This tells me that the intel community

810
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 1: was not sharing everything that they knew about these cases

811
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: with special Counsel and with the prosecutors. And for a

812
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: very simple reason. There are rules that say that the

813
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: prosecution has to turn over evidence Brady material that is

814
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,439
Speaker 1: going to be excuse me, exculpatory. So this information would

815
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: harm Flynn, who is testifying, and they never showed it.

816
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: Why didn't they Why didn't they turn it over? I

817
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: think they didn't turn over because they didn't have it.

818
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: The intel community kept it cordoned off, didn't give it

819
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: to the prosecutors, didn't give it to the Special Console,

820
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: and waited until Flynn is all of a sudden making

821
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: a stink, And now all of a sudden they're gonna

822
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: they're gonna give them Inteli fence. Fine, But the intelligence community,

823
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: I see is going to give this now to the

824
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: prosecutors and say hey, here, you can get Flynn with this.

825
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: And what that says to me is the IC community,

826
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: the intel community, was controlling what was going on with

827
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: Mueller's investigation. They gave what they wanted and they didn't

828
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: give what they didn't and that is shocking. We have

829
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: just about under a minute left to try to put

830
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: a bow on all of this, and there have been

831
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: so many peculiar things relating to this case. And let's

832
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 1: be clear when we talk about Turkey and the evidence here.

833
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 1: The evidence that we know about was basically that General

834
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: Flynn wrote something published in The Hill regarding Turkish government

835
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 1: policy and one of the figures who was viewed as

836
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: an adversary to the Air to one regime. So in

837
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: about a half a minute, now, what do you think

838
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: ultimately happened? Was the fix in here? Was this all

839
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: really effectively a conspiracy to get Flynn? And I grant

840
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: that requires a lot of speculation on your part, right,

841
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: I think that this was to get Flynn in order

842
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: to get Trump. I think the intel community did not

843
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: like Flynn. That it goes back a long way when

844
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 1: he auded the failed policy of Obama when Flynn told Trump,

845
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: we need to do an audit. There's never really been

846
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 1: an audit of what the intel community is doing, and

847
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 1: that they were out to get Flynn. Margo, we're gonna

848
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: have to leave it right there. I apologize. This has

849
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:54,919
Speaker 1: been one garden in for Buck Sexon on the Buck

850
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: Sexon Show. We'll be right back after this. Sorry to

851
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: cut you, Margo, I apologize. Welcome back to the Buck

852
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: Sexton Show. This is Ben Weingarten in for Buck Sexton.

853
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 1: All right, we were just speaking with Margot Cleveland about

854
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: the goings on in the Flynn case, and it seems

855
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: potentially the intelligence community sort of stage managing what has transpired,

856
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: and this all of this is just so peculiar and

857
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: out of the norm for what would happen with a

858
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 1: normal case. And let's remember that General Flynn himself had

859
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: one of the highest levels role in intelligence possible. He

860
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 1: was the head of the d i A, the Defense

861
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency during the Obama administration. And what did he

862
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: do during that time, Well, he basically challenged the Obama

863
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: administration's narratives about everything that was going on in the world.

864
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: He foretold the rise of ISIS. He said they were

865
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: not a JV team. He foretold the disasters in Syria

866
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: and Iraq and elsewhere. He challenged political correctness, and for

867
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: that he paid a tremendous price. He attacked the president

868
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: under whom he served, and then the long knives came out.

869
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: And it's amazing, incidentally, that he got to the position

870
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: of head of DA in the first place, because he

871
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 1: was so good at what he did out in the field,

872
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: in particular in Iraq, understanding the enemy and taking the

873
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: fight to them. He was so talented that he had

874
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: to rise to the position. He rose too, even though

875
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: it's very clear that he differed with these colleagues. In fact,

876
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: in testimony you can look back, he essentially contradicted at

877
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: the time James Clapper, who I believe was Director of

878
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: National Intelligence at that time, and others as well. So

879
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: when you take a line against the administration, you serve

880
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: because you think it's the right thing to do. That's

881
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 1: pretty honorable, and he did it in the right way,

882
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: unlike the people who were trying to undermine this president.

883
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: But ultimately Flynn was pushed out I believe a year

884
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: before his tenure was scheduled to conclude, and then he

885
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: supported Donald Trump, which is the ultimate sin in the

886
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: eyes of the national security and foreign policy establishment. And

887
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: even beyond that, he attacked the former Secretary of State

888
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: and led chance of lock her up, and that may

889
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: have sealed his fate ultimately, because it was very clear

890
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: that the long knives were out for him well before

891
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: the Obama team left. They set landmines essentially to try

892
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: and capture him. It's a serious problem when our intelligence

893
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 1: community and our national security apparatus more broadly ends up politicized, worse,

894
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: ends up politically correct. So not just politicized, but politicized.

895
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: From a leftist worldview, you cannot have political correctness and

896
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: politicization and national security because lives are at risk. And

897
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: when lives are at risk, truth is what matters, not sugarcoating,

898
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: not advancing people because they scratched your back and now

899
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: you're going to scratch theirs. It is about who is

900
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 1: the best person for the job to protect and defend

901
00:56:54,920 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: American lives. To that end, recently, there were news reports

902
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: that President Trump might be considering making a change atop

903
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 1: the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and what

904
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: does that office do ODNI? The position that James Clapper

905
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: held during the Obama administration. ODNI is the bureaucracy on

906
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: top of the entire intelligence community of bureaucracy, it oversees

907
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: the sixteen agencies beneath it. All of the other intelligence

908
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: agencies from CIA and DA on down all report filter

909
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: up to ODNI. So if you're the Director of National Security,

910
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: you are responsible for coordinating, integrating, setting the tone for

911
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: managing all the intelligence agencies beneath you. And this was

912
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: created in response to September eleventh, and how effective it

913
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: has been is quite questionable. And in fact President Trump

914
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: himself before he was elected or right around the time

915
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: of the transition, said that he might want to abolish

916
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: ODNI altogether. We want to get rid of another layer

917
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: of government, stream line it at least for the time being.

918
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: He recognizes the political challenges associated with that, and I

919
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: believe Congress would be responsible for it because it was

920
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: statutorially created by Congress. He is looking to make a

921
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: change atop od and I and one of the names

922
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: that's been rumored is someone who have come to know

923
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: through their commentary through conversation as well. Believe we interviewed

924
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: him on this show actually once Fred Flights, Fred Flights

925
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: may be the next Director of National Intelligence, and I

926
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: believe he would make for an inspired choice, and I

927
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: believe it's imperative that we talk for a minute about

928
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: it and about him as a potential replacement, because if

929
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: you don't have an intelligence community that serves its ultimate consumer,

930
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: which is the president, and puts forth the president's priorities

931
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: in terms of intelligence, naturally your intelligence community is going

932
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: to act like any bureaucracy. It's going to do what

933
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: is in the interest of those who are atop it.

934
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: Fred Flights has a lifetime of experience working intel, spent

935
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 1: twenty five years in it, working in analysis and administration

936
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: at CIA, at DIA, at Department of State, on the

937
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: House Intelligence Committee Intelligence Committee, and most recently as chief

938
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: of staff for the Trump Administration's National Security Council. And

939
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: it's imperative to point out that Flights is from the

940
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: intelligence community, but not of it. That's a crucial, crucial distinction.

941
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: Someone who understands how the sausage is made, but themselves

942
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: are not swamped by the swamp fights himself, like the

943
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: President actually recommended doing away with the very position Director

944
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: of National Intelligence that he might be tabbed for that's

945
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: a pretty good criteria. If you're looking at anyone to

946
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: lead any agency, if they want to abolish that agency,

947
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: probably not a bad criteria. Flights called for streamlining the

948
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: ODNI if we're not going to abolish it, because he

949
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: felt that it would combat the bloat and consequent bureaucratic

950
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: stultification that is contributed to the major intelligence failures that

951
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 1: we've seen since nine to eleven. In spite of the

952
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: fact that ODIE and I was created to help mitigate

953
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: for those failures, to coordinate the agencies so that information

954
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: wasn't lost, it was coordinated, and they acted with one voice.

955
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 1: Flights himself has warned about politicization of the IC that

956
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: he's seen during his time in it, and it's been

957
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: clear that the politicization of the IC when you consider

958
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 1: the public displays of hostility the President Trump has faced

959
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: from his own principles or former principles, and the torrent

960
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: of leaks leveled against the Trump administration, Flights understands that

961
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: there need to be, as he puts it, quote, strong

962
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: leaders in top intelligence positions who will act independently and

963
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: are not beholden to the intelligence community unquote very infrequent

964
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: that you see someone potentially tab to lead a community

965
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: that they worked in, who is looking for someone that

966
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 1: takes a perspective antithetical to it. But that should be

967
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: what we want. We should want to shake up the bureaucracy.

968
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: That's what President Trump was elected to do. Flights has

969
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: also attacked political correctness, and in fact, if you want

970
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: to look at his independence or his attack on political correctness,

971
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: this is someone who, though we hold, held these very

972
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: senior positions throughout his career, oppose the Russian collusion hysteria

973
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: narrative from the start. He challenged that infamous January six,

974
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen Intelligence Community assessment, which basically said Houdin was

975
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: working to advance Trump's campaign and help him get elected

976
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: on the like he questioned it. He said, and I'll

977
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 1: quote here, the unusual way of the ICA that Intelligence

978
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 1: community assessment was drafted raised his major questions as to

979
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: whether it was rigged by the Obama administration to produce

980
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: conclusions that would discredit the election outcome and mister Trump's presidency.

981
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: And this, ultimately, by the way, was proven out by

982
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: the House Intelligence Committee's report on Russian Active Measures. It

983
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: showed that that Intelligence community assessment, was deficient, was politicized,

984
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: was framed to make Trump look bad, to make it

985
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: look like there was collusion to fit this narrative. So

986
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 1: we should want someone who oversees our intelligence community, who

987
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: would see something like the whole Russian collusion hysteria with

988
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: queer eyes, who wouldn't buy into that narrative, in spite

989
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: of the fact that he spent all this time in

990
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: the national security and foreign policy establishment. And incidentally, this

991
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: is particularly important because if and when Attorney General bar

992
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: gets the bottom of what transpired, even if we get

993
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 1: a fraction of declassification and what we should have, there

994
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 1: will probably need to be massive reform, and someone like

995
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: Flights and what he has advocated publicly, which most people

996
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't do if they were interested in position like this,

997
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: you'll need someone like him to oversee that reform. It

998
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: also bears noting Flight spent his career focused on two

999
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 1: issues North Korea Iran. Those might be the two most

1000
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: pressing issues that we face outside of China, which will

1001
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: talk about at length during the show tonight. He served

1002
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: as the top brand on the House Intelligence Committee as

1003
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: a staffer from six to eleven, in particular on these

1004
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 1: two issues, the Iranian and North Korean nuclear programs. He

1005
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 1: served John Bolton as chief of Staff of the State

1006
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 1: Department when Bolton was under Secretary of State for Arms Control,

1007
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: and he's been a dogged supporter of the President's maximum

1008
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 1: Pressure campaign in addition to serving him at the National

1009
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: Security Council. This is someone who supports the President's America

1010
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: First agenda. President shouldn't have to ask for much more

1011
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: than that among those leading our most essential agencies. I

1012
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: believe that Flights would make a tremendous Director of National Intelligence,

1013
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 1: and I wanted to spend some time talking about it

1014
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 1: because it is such a vital position for our country.

1015
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: It's so imperative that the president's prerogatives when it comes

1016
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 1: to our national security prerogatives and priorities are met. He

1017
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 1: has to have his team in place. Personnel is policy.

1018
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 1: This has been wangartan in for Buck Sexton on the

1019
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: buck Sexton Show. Back after this, This is Ben Wangaran

1020
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: in for Buck Sexton on the buck Sexton Show. All Right,

1021
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 1: we were just talking about the intelligence community, politicization, the

1022
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: need for the President's policies to be met in every agency.

1023
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: I mean, is that so much to ask incidentally, for

1024
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 1: president to have people that actually agree with him in

1025
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: the most critical positions. Remember that these folks who run bureaucracies,

1026
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: they are delegated tasks by we the people. Ultimately they're unelected,

1027
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: but we elect the people who appoint them, and so

1028
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: they represent the agenda that we voted on, or they should,

1029
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: and if not, changes must be made. I talked a

1030
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: little bit about the pressing issues of North Korea and Iran,

1031
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 1: but I mentioned that of all the issues, and I've

1032
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: talked about this at length here on this program before,

1033
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 1: China is the seminole long term issue facing America in

1034
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: national security and foreign policy, and it bears noting. And

1035
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: the President has not gotten credit for this, with a

1036
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: handful of exceptions of articles that the foreign policy establishment

1037
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: has sort of come on board at least directionally with

1038
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 1: where the President is on this, and that is no

1039
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 1: small feat. That is kind of a remarkable thing, especially

1040
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: because if you go back and look at the president's

1041
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 1: comments on China, he's been remarkably consistent for at least

1042
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: a couple of decades. The Trump administration put into writing

1043
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: in its National Security Strategy the idea that the foreign

1044
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: policy and national security establishment got China wrong wrong. All

1045
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: the experts what they told us about China's peaceful rise,

1046
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 1: that China would liberalize politically, socially, culturally if we just

1047
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: had quote unquote free trade didn't work out that way

1048
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 1: with them, that China would get rich and all of

1049
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: a sudden, because you're a rich country, then you suddenly

1050
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: want freedom. They said, economic liberalization would lead to political liberalization.

1051
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: In fact, the opposite has been true. What really happened

1052
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 1: over the last forty years was that we helped subsidize,

1053
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 1: we helped invest in, We helped China, by dint of

1054
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: their stealing of our technology, intellectual property, and the like,

1055
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 1: we helped recapitalize and build a communist regime into our

1056
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 1: number one competitor and adversary in the globe. We built that,

1057
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 1: we did build that. We granted them access to the

1058
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 1: world financial system, the global trade architecture, all of these

1059
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: institutions that America built, that America defends, that America bears

1060
01:06:55,800 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 1: the vast majority of the burdens of And what did

1061
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 1: we get for our generosity? And of course, look, this

1062
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: was this was a relationship that was viewed as a

1063
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 1: matter of national self interest. Will help make China rich.

1064
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 1: Maybe they'll enter you know this quote unquote community of Nations,

1065
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 1: be less hostile, liberalized, turn away from communism. Perhaps meanwhile,

1066
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: we'll get cheap goods. We'll be able to outsource to China,

1067
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: which will help the top and bottom lines of our businesses.

1068
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: Everyone wins, except, you know, those industries that were creatively

1069
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: destroyed in the process. And that's a whole debate in

1070
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: of itself. But at its highest level, this failed because

1071
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: we empowered now our biggest adversary, a nation that wants

1072
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: to be the dominant player within the next thirty years,

1073
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: and probably it'll probably be less than that the way

1074
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: they're growing, Not that you can trust their numbers. So

1075
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: let's assume that, you know, China isn't as big as

1076
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 1: they portray themselves to be. Communists have a way of

1077
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: cooking the books. We provided China with the technology, with

1078
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: the funds, We created this whole entree for them, and

1079
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: they took advantage of us. And now we deal with

1080
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: the scenario where trillions of dollars of global trade go

1081
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: through waters that China claims are theirs. They buzz our ships,

1082
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 1: they buzz our plans, they engage in some of the

1083
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 1: greatest attacks from an intelligence perspective, from an espionage perspective,

1084
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: that we've ever witnessed. When you know, when they talk

1085
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: about something like a cyber warfare nine to eleven, well,

1086
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: China hacked the records of twenty to twenty five million

1087
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: US government employees, their most sensitive information, their applications for

1088
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: national security positions, and those applications, by the way, expose

1089
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: your most compromising or potentially compromising information precisely because the

1090
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:00,120
Speaker 1: government wants to know that they are vetting for and

1091
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:04,640
Speaker 1: not hiring people who could potentially be leverage, potentially be

1092
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 1: manipulated in order to advance the aims of our adversaries.

1093
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 1: China hacked install those records so they have that most

1094
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 1: compromising information on millions of Americans and by extension, the

1095
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 1: people that those Americans flag within those documents as well.

1096
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 1: They're nuclear power, they're developing all sorts of asymmetric warfare capabilities.

1097
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 1: This is the major long term threat and what Donald

1098
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 1: Trump has done, and he should run on this because

1099
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 1: it truly is on the merits. The most important thing

1100
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 1: he's done on the national security and foreign policy side,

1101
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 1: in my view, is he has started to turn the

1102
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: ship around and has actually unified to some extent the

1103
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 1: entire political establishment around the fact that China does pose

1104
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:53,640
Speaker 1: the gravest threat to America and we need to have

1105
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: a comprehensive strategy in order to counter them. That is

1106
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 1: all facets. That's in the realm of ideas, that's in

1107
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:05,440
Speaker 1: the realm of hard military power, soft power, information warfare,

1108
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 1: technological strength, artificial intelligence. We're fighting over space technology right now.

1109
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 1: We are fighting in every single realm. And the next

1110
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:22,680
Speaker 1: hour we're going to talk with someone who played a

1111
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 1: central role in helping develop this strategy of competition with

1112
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 1: the Chinese and who has focused in particular on the

1113
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 1: technological realm and the telecommunications realm. In that next half hour,

1114
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Huawei in particular, and Huawei

1115
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 1: is perhaps the most important enterprise within the whole Chinese

1116
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: Communist Party framework when it comes to competing with us.

1117
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 1: If you control global telecommunications, you control the transfer of information,

1118
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 1: you really control the world. We'll talk about that in

1119
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 1: the next hour. This has Ben wangeron in for Buck

1120
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 1: Sexton on the buck Sexton Show. Back after this this

1121
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 1: has been Wan Are in for Buck Sexton on the

1122
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,720
Speaker 1: buck Sexton show, all right, Well, at the end of

1123
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: the last hour, I was speaking about President Trump's comprehensive

1124
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: effort to counter China, which I believe and I think

1125
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 1: it's clear is the greatest geopolitical threat ultimately to America

1126
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 1: over the long run and in the short term as well.

1127
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: And I was speaking a bit about global telecommunications and

1128
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 1: Huawei's role in particular as central to China's efforts in

1129
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 1: global telecommunications and ultimately, as we'll get to in a minute,

1130
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: as well national security, Huawei as the and essential, if

1131
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: not the essential entity therein And someone who has spent

1132
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 1: a great deal of time focusing on the problem of

1133
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: China writ large, in particular global telecommunications, the threat pose there,

1134
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: and the challenges that we face and Huawei specifically, is

1135
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 1: General Rob Spaulding, who's a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute.

1136
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 1: He's also served in senior positions of strategy and plomacy

1137
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 1: within the Department of Defense and Department of State for

1138
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: more than twenty six years. Most recently, he was a

1139
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: crucial member of the Trump National Security Council, where he

1140
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 1: was a senior director for Strategy and played a critical

1141
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,600
Speaker 1: role in the drafting of the Trump administration national security strategy,

1142
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 1: of which I spoke a moment ago, General Spotting, Thanks

1143
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Glad to be here, Thank you.

1144
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:28,680
Speaker 1: So let's start at a very high level, which is

1145
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 1: we hear all the time and the media focuses in

1146
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,679
Speaker 1: particular about this concept of a trade war or trade

1147
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: competition with the Chinese. Is it fair to suggest that

1148
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,840
Speaker 1: trade issues are just one part of a multifaceted, whole

1149
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: of government strategy the Trump administration is trying to implement

1150
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: and execute to counter China. Yeah, and I think the

1151
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:56,600
Speaker 1: whole terminology trade war actually doesn't do justice to the

1152
01:12:56,840 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 1: level of the strategic competition that currently going on between

1153
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 1: the US and China, and the fact it hasn't begun

1154
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 1: just since the Trump administration. It really began, you know,

1155
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 1: several decades ago, really at the end of the Cold War.

1156
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,679
Speaker 1: As a China, you know, sought strategies to figure out

1157
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:17,720
Speaker 1: how they can use the strengths that they had in

1158
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:21,639
Speaker 1: their society to get after the weakness. What they saw

1159
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: where the weaknesses within the United States system and essentially

1160
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: the three things that they focused on in terms of

1161
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 1: strategic trends in history in the twenty first century, was

1162
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons really make war less possible between like powers

1163
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:48,719
Speaker 1: nuclear powers. Globalization allows the complete opening of the country,

1164
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: and then the Internet kind of creates a binding agent

1165
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: to synchronize all those actions. And so they as opposed

1166
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: to the theory where globalization and the Internet we're going

1167
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: the openness was going to create this opportunity to drive

1168
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:07,439
Speaker 1: democracy throughout the world. But the Chinese Communist Party saw

1169
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 1: was that they could use openness in the Internet essentially

1170
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:16,719
Speaker 1: to drive their liberal principles worldwide. Yeah, and to that point,

1171
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:21,919
Speaker 1: they're engaged in competition on all levels, and America essentially

1172
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 1: has not been engaged in competition. So, as you mentioned,

1173
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, we're now forty years from nineteen seventy nine

1174
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 1: when we officially normalize relations, and of course Nixon went

1175
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: to China prior to that. How would you assess the

1176
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 1: current state of play in terms of our government sort

1177
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 1: of revving up the engines to actually compete in all spheres. Well,

1178
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: if you break the national security strategy down in kind

1179
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: of the score elements, the first element is really realigning

1180
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 1: democratic principles with free market principles. In other words, during

1181
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 1: the Cold War, we only traded with democracies. At the

1182
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:00,040
Speaker 1: end of the Cold War, we opened up and we

1183
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:04,479
Speaker 1: essentially brought into totalitary regimes on the basis of an

1184
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 1: economic theory and the social theory. The economic theory was

1185
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 1: open markets lead to wealth. The social theory, the theory

1186
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:15,599
Speaker 1: of modernization, said that wealth leads to democracy. And so

1187
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 1: we believe that by opening up to regimes, totalitarian regimes

1188
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,799
Speaker 1: like the Chinese Communist Party, that they would over time

1189
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 1: democratize as they interacted with the US population. So the

1190
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 1: idea of the national Spirity strategy is that's a failed

1191
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 1: endeavor and that what we ought to do is focus

1192
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 1: more on trading, aligning our trading, our financial our investment,

1193
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 1: our internets with the democracy of the world. The second

1194
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:50,680
Speaker 1: is to really figure out how to create policies and

1195
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,719
Speaker 1: rules and regulations in an open in a globalized world

1196
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:58,360
Speaker 1: that actually allow for the United States to defend its

1197
01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 1: companies and its people in a way that allows form like,

1198
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:06,559
Speaker 1: for instance, after China entered the wto seventy eight thousand

1199
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 1: factories clothes across the United States, three point four million

1200
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,360
Speaker 1: manufacturing jobs as lost. We need policies and rules and

1201
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 1: regulations to actually allow the United States to protect its

1202
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 1: companies and citizens. So that's the second pillar. The third

1203
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 1: pillars really to begin to reinvest in America, and that's

1204
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:28,600
Speaker 1: really talking about infrastructure, industrial based STEM, education and R

1205
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:31,719
Speaker 1: and D. And that component of the strategy still hasn't

1206
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 1: come into play. Would I would characterize the trade war

1207
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 1: as trying to figure out some of those policies, rules

1208
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 1: and regulations for protecting the nation. But really the investment

1209
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 1: needs to happen into the into the country so that

1210
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 1: we can begin to grow economically again, and so those

1211
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: those communities that were affected by China's entry into the

1212
01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 1: W two can begin to heal. And the final is

1213
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 1: to take those those all three of those legs and

1214
01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:01,120
Speaker 1: to work on a bilateral basis without lives and partners,

1215
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 1: to align our diplomatic efforts, our informational efforts, our economic efforts,

1216
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:13,640
Speaker 1: and our military alliances around promoting democratic principles in the

1217
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 1: international institution. So's we're, you know, three years into a

1218
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 1: strategy now that I think is going to take decades

1219
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 1: to actually implement. And so I would say, based on

1220
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:28,200
Speaker 1: everything I've seen over the last six years, we've made

1221
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 1: tremendous progress. Just in the first three years of the

1222
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 1: Trump administration. A very basic question, and one of your

1223
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:39,719
Speaker 1: comments earlier brings this to the four is you talked

1224
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 1: about the fact that China in a sense looked at

1225
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 1: its strengths and weaknesses, our strengths and our weaknesses, and

1226
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 1: has acted in its national self interest to the thousandth degree.

1227
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:54,000
Speaker 1: To that end, one of the things that China has

1228
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: done is they have used capitalism, the influx of not

1229
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:01,280
Speaker 1: only technology that it was illicitly taken as well as

1230
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:05,759
Speaker 1: fairly developed and wand or taken by China, and allowed

1231
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 1: us to capitalize them and also help build them up.

1232
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 1: To that end, it seems very clear that any major company,

1233
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:16,680
Speaker 1: and probably every minor company as well, operating in China

1234
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: does so at the pleasure of the Chinese Communist Party,

1235
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 1: whether explicitly or implicitly. To that end, Ultimately, are we

1236
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 1: going to have to decouple given that in a sense,

1237
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 1: if we're doing trade with China, we're transacting with China.

1238
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 1: Ultimately it's about benefiting the Chinese Communist Party, which is

1239
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: anathema to us and opposed to us. That's really good question. So,

1240
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:43,720
Speaker 1: first of all, I don't believe it's my opinion that

1241
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: there will not be a trade agreement. And the reason

1242
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 1: there will not be a trade agreement is because structurally,

1243
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:54,040
Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party has basically placed their bets on

1244
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 1: the power of the state owned enterprises within China, and

1245
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:00,479
Speaker 1: a lot of the power structures are aligned with those

1246
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 1: state owned enterprises, and so essentially reform and opening requires

1247
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,599
Speaker 1: them to kind of dismantle those state owned enterprises. So

1248
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 1: I think that they have doubled down on their method

1249
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 1: of driving what they believe is what they call um

1250
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 1: Chinese or socialism with Chinese characteristics. Now, I think if

1251
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:27,759
Speaker 1: you if you look at how the global economy works

1252
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:31,720
Speaker 1: and um and you say, today you know what used

1253
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 1: to be the strength of the US system, and what

1254
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 1: you can point to is the fact that individual motives,

1255
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:42,720
Speaker 1: profit motives were tied to US national interests. And this

1256
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: is something that the Chinese figured out and dunk shout

1257
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 1: things started and they grew, and what they what they

1258
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 1: realize is that they could use the Chinese um large

1259
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 1: market of one point four billion Chinese and their enormous

1260
01:19:57,479 --> 01:20:05,120
Speaker 1: financial resources to incent buy businesses everywhere. So US corporations,

1261
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: European corporations, Asian corporations essentially all over the globe, they

1262
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:15,760
Speaker 1: could incentivize them to seek profit by fulfilling what were

1263
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party's national interests. And so it's actually

1264
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,639
Speaker 1: been quite interesting to see. It's I think it's really

1265
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 1: an incredibly thoughtful strategy. I think they looked at how

1266
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: the United States was able to use the private capital

1267
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 1: capital system to in essentially in essence bankrupt so Union.

1268
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:37,880
Speaker 1: They saw that and they sought to replicate it. If

1269
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 1: you look at what we have today, a really need

1270
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: to spend more because of way the way they have

1271
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 1: created a very efficient and effective and cost low cost

1272
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 1: defense in the Pacific, and we have a very expensive

1273
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:01,800
Speaker 1: and exquisite response to that that really enables them to

1274
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:06,640
Speaker 1: not only use their economics warfare against our entire ecompany,

1275
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 1: also incentivize our companies to do things that are not

1276
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 1: in our own national interests, but then forced us to

1277
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:17,040
Speaker 1: drain our coffers by increasing our defense by just not

1278
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:20,040
Speaker 1: just to counter them in the Pacific, but also to

1279
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:23,719
Speaker 1: counter their proxies. I ran Russia and North Korea everywhere,

1280
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:26,680
Speaker 1: general spotting. We've got about a minute left and then

1281
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 1: we're going to hit a break, and I'd love to

1282
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 1: have you continue the conversation after the break. But in

1283
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:35,360
Speaker 1: the briefest of manners, what is the ultimate goal of

1284
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:38,439
Speaker 1: the Belt and Road initiative that is bandied about with

1285
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 1: respect to China. It's still align economic and geopolitical interests

1286
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 1: or relationships around Chinese natural interests, and how is Chinese

1287
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:58,760
Speaker 1: national interest ultimately defined the preservation of the Chinese Communist Party.

1288
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 1: I think that's so it's such a critical point. And

1289
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 1: not only that, but relating to that, when people talk

1290
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: about the Chinese military the PLA, it's imperative to make

1291
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 1: the distinction that that is not the military that represents

1292
01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:12,439
Speaker 1: the Chinese people. It is the military that represents the

1293
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party, which is about ninety million people, who

1294
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 1: really are the ones that dictate the direction of the country.

1295
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,920
Speaker 1: All Right, we're speaking with General Rob Spouting. We're going

1296
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:24,559
Speaker 1: to take a quick break and then we'll have General

1297
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: Spotting back to talk a little more about China. This

1298
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 1: is Ben Weingarten in for Buck Sexon on the Buck

1299
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 1: Sexon Show. Back after this, Welcome back to the Buck

1300
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 1: Sexton Show. This is Ben Weinarten in four Buck Sexton.

1301
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:38,720
Speaker 1: Appreciate you taking the time to join us on this

1302
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:42,040
Speaker 1: Friday evening. All right, we've been talking at length about China,

1303
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 1: China's overall strategy and America's overall strategy with someone who

1304
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:49,520
Speaker 1: is actually responsible in a large part for helping formulate

1305
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:52,559
Speaker 1: our national security strategy with respect to China, and that

1306
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:55,439
Speaker 1: is General Rob Spotting, General Spotting, Thanks again for coming

1307
01:22:55,479 --> 01:23:00,760
Speaker 1: on the program. Thank you. So we talked at about

1308
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:03,920
Speaker 1: a thirty thousand foot level about really what does China

1309
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 1: want and what is America doing to try to counter

1310
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 1: it where it clashes with the US national interest And

1311
01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:14,720
Speaker 1: one of the central entities in China's long term strategy

1312
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 1: is competition in five G fifth generation networking and telecommunications technology,

1313
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 1: and in particular the most dominant player in that space WAWE.

1314
01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:31,599
Speaker 1: What would it mean for America for Wahwei to dominate

1315
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 1: in five G infrastructure globally. Well, that's an interesting question.

1316
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:39,879
Speaker 1: So if you look at the rise of the Internet,

1317
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:42,759
Speaker 1: in the growth of technology. Since the rise of the Internet,

1318
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 1: there's been a convergence in technology and business models around

1319
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:51,320
Speaker 1: the four G system or the four G architecture, or

1320
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:55,320
Speaker 1: the four network, if you will. So in that system,

1321
01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 1: the network itself is a pipe in the mobile computing,

1322
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 1: the smart own has become the platform upon which the

1323
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 1: applications of services and the business models were built, and

1324
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 1: that has allowed massive collaboration across many different fields and

1325
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:19,120
Speaker 1: industries and has allowed for incredible economic growth. It what

1326
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 1: it also has enabled, with the rise of social media

1327
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:29,480
Speaker 1: and artificial intelligence and machine learning and big data analysis

1328
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:33,760
Speaker 1: is the ability to do targeted influence. And so the

1329
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:37,599
Speaker 1: ten thousand person over ten thousand person march that happened

1330
01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: roughly a week after the election in twenty sixteen in

1331
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:46,720
Speaker 1: New York was actually works traded by the Russians using Facebook,

1332
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 1: so social media network, big data analysis to identify nearby

1333
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:56,680
Speaker 1: groups and then automated bots to basically encourage them to

1334
01:24:56,720 --> 01:25:00,639
Speaker 1: come out in protests. And so that is I call

1335
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 1: that is very um, you know, very you know, very

1336
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 1: rudimentary technology in terms of what can be done with

1337
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,920
Speaker 1: the convergence of this technology going forward with five G.

1338
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 1: In four G, you could opt out by not carrying

1339
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 1: a smartphone. In five G we go from ten thousand

1340
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:25,679
Speaker 1: connections per square mile to three million connections per square miles.

1341
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:28,400
Speaker 1: Now you're not going to get you another two million,

1342
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:32,720
Speaker 1: nine hundred and ninety thousand smart smartphones out there what

1343
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:35,719
Speaker 1: you're going to get are all these devices and Internet

1344
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:39,080
Speaker 1: of things that are going to be surrounding cities, and

1345
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 1: they're gonna they're gonna track you, they're gonna identify you.

1346
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:44,559
Speaker 1: And so when you could where you could opt out

1347
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:46,559
Speaker 1: in the four G world, in the five G world,

1348
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:48,680
Speaker 1: you're not going to have the opportunity to opt out.

1349
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:54,400
Speaker 1: So China's using that capability by deploying technology, the internet

1350
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:58,040
Speaker 1: technology of five G globally to be able to do

1351
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:03,240
Speaker 1: widespread survey length and then also to do targeted influence.

1352
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 1: But finally, because the things that are going to be

1353
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:09,560
Speaker 1: connected to the networker machine, some of which have the

1354
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:12,519
Speaker 1: weight and mass to to kill you, to have the

1355
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 1: ability to I believe, launch targeted attacks if the if

1356
01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 1: the need arises. But far more pervasive is the association

1357
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:26,080
Speaker 1: with all of these things in a new systemized social

1358
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:30,040
Speaker 1: networking or social um. What what they have is called

1359
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 1: a social credit score. So they use this and I

1360
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:36,160
Speaker 1: call it six sigma fascism because they're they're seeking to

1361
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:40,760
Speaker 1: automate control of their society by systematically removing the non

1362
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:47,920
Speaker 1: conformists and society by tracking them, by collecting data about them,

1363
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 1: and by using the business models that were created by

1364
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:57,000
Speaker 1: Amazon and Facebook and Google to incentivize conforming behavior and

1365
01:26:57,040 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 1: then to punish you by excluding you from that world

1366
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,519
Speaker 1: if you don't suform. I think it's critical to point

1367
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:07,720
Speaker 1: out that we have real, live case studies right now

1368
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:11,639
Speaker 1: going on, both in mainland China and beyond in terms

1369
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:15,640
Speaker 1: of what happens when you live at the mercy effectively

1370
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:18,879
Speaker 1: of the Chinese Communist Party, which, as you've just stated,

1371
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:23,360
Speaker 1: is not only widespread surveillance but also ranking its citizens

1372
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:26,519
Speaker 1: based upon that surveillance, and as well all of the

1373
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 1: potential problems that one might face from the perspective of

1374
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:32,800
Speaker 1: cyber attacks, and one can imagine all sorts of other

1375
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:37,799
Speaker 1: nightmare scenarios when China controls your infrastructure, particularly your networking

1376
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,759
Speaker 1: telecommunications infrastructure. And I think it bears noting that several

1377
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 1: nations in China's orbit have refused to allow Huawei to

1378
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:50,280
Speaker 1: build their five G infrastructure. But all that said, even

1379
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 1: if Huawei was completely excommunicated from the Western world, isn't

1380
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:58,880
Speaker 1: it a fact that the parts that go into not

1381
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:02,600
Speaker 1: only the infrastructure it's self, but many of our networking

1382
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,559
Speaker 1: items as well have Chinese parts in them and do

1383
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 1: allow backdoors anyway. Yeah, and it's important to note that

1384
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:16,160
Speaker 1: there are no longer because of predicatory economics from the Chinese. No,

1385
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 1: there are no longer any equipment manufacturers that are from

1386
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,639
Speaker 1: the United States. They all went out of business. So

1387
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 1: there's there's First of all, there's that. And if you

1388
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:29,680
Speaker 1: think about globalization, is really about converging the standards around

1389
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 1: an agreed upon a set of recommendations, both at the

1390
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:38,639
Speaker 1: industry level, so that's three GPP forum and then at

1391
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:42,720
Speaker 1: the international level at the ITU. So right now, what

1392
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:46,600
Speaker 1: happened is with five G China has sought to dominate

1393
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 1: five G standards. So we recently saw where a Nokia

1394
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:56,960
Speaker 1: Nokia phone sold into the European market. We're sending data

1395
01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:00,280
Speaker 1: back to China. Now, why was that happening? General Spotting. Sorry,

1396
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:01,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to leave it right there. Thank you

1397
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:03,719
Speaker 1: so much for joining the program. This is Ben Weegardon

1398
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 1: in for Buck Sexon on the Buck Sex and Show.

1399
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:09,479
Speaker 1: Back after this. This has Ben Weegarden in for Buck

1400
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:13,680
Speaker 1: Sexton on the Buck Sexton Show. Allright, Earlier in the episode,

1401
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 1: we talked a bit about we talked more than a

1402
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:19,880
Speaker 1: bit about the squad versus Trump twenty twenty all the

1403
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 1: politics of it, and then a little bit of the

1404
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:26,280
Speaker 1: broader ideological issues that are really at the core of

1405
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 1: the divide in this country, and there actually divides within

1406
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:33,519
Speaker 1: both parties. I've pointed out repeatedly that there's a burgeoning

1407
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 1: civil war on the left, and we also have riffs

1408
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:41,720
Speaker 1: on the right, although people are getting together and supporting candidates. Ultimately,

1409
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 1: it's interesting that the left is sort of having the

1410
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:48,479
Speaker 1: equivalent of something like their Tea Party moment, or maybe

1411
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,960
Speaker 1: even something like a newt Gangridge storming the gates moment.

1412
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:55,720
Speaker 1: But on our side, on the conservative side, there continues

1413
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:59,680
Speaker 1: to be fractures over both tactics and ideology, and it's

1414
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 1: import not to just talk about why we oppose the

1415
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,400
Speaker 1: views on the left of the squad and their accolytes,

1416
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 1: but also what we believe in and where we go

1417
01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:11,040
Speaker 1: from here, not just over the next six years, but

1418
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:13,760
Speaker 1: beyond and here to join me and talk about this

1419
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:16,680
Speaker 1: the conservative side of things is Josh Hammer, who is

1420
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:19,200
Speaker 1: editor at large for The Daily Wire and also of

1421
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:23,080
Speaker 1: counsel at First Liberty Institute, the Texas based religious liberty

1422
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:26,439
Speaker 1: Legal defense From Josh, thanks so much for joining us

1423
01:30:26,439 --> 01:30:29,640
Speaker 1: always a pleasure show with you, Ben, So, Josh, you

1424
01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 1: were at the National Conservatism Conference this week. What was

1425
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:40,480
Speaker 1: the premise of that conference? So, I kind of Jesus

1426
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:43,400
Speaker 1: conference and a piece for the Daily Wire a little

1427
01:30:43,400 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 1: over a month ago when I build it as the

1428
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:49,599
Speaker 1: most important intellectual gathering for the American right in all

1429
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. So you know, suffice to say, I had

1430
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:55,280
Speaker 1: high expectations for it, and it really did live up

1431
01:30:55,280 --> 01:31:01,600
Speaker 1: to expectations. It was organized by two gentlemen in Joram Hazzoni,

1432
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 1: who is a Jerusalem based political philosopher, as well as

1433
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:08,799
Speaker 1: David Brogue, who was based here in the US, formerly

1434
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:12,880
Speaker 1: executive director of Christians United for Israel and currently heading

1435
01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:15,519
Speaker 1: up the Macabe Task Force, which is another anti anti

1436
01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 1: Semitism group. And the premise of the conference was essentially

1437
01:31:21,280 --> 01:31:25,479
Speaker 1: trying to provide an intellectual framework for the present political moment.

1438
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 1: So in twenty sixteen, from my perspective, then the election

1439
01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump and Brexit were really two key events

1440
01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:38,960
Speaker 1: that took the political landscape and intellectual political landscape by storm.

1441
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 1: And I think in a lot of ways, a lot

1442
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:45,719
Speaker 1: of thinkers or have given serious thoughts to what happened

1443
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 1: to what the people and these two major phenomena essentially

1444
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:55,040
Speaker 1: told their fellow voters and their elites. And we're now

1445
01:31:55,040 --> 01:32:00,200
Speaker 1: trying to provide a framework to basically account for or

1446
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:04,599
Speaker 1: political reality. And your Manzoni in particular has been a

1447
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:11,560
Speaker 1: super super traditionalist conservative thinker for decades now. He despises

1448
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,240
Speaker 1: John Locke with a burning passion. He's all about Emminburke

1449
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:18,160
Speaker 1: and very traditionalist conservative thought. And this conference was really

1450
01:32:18,200 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 1: trying to provide an alternative to neoliberalism, to libertarianism, classical liberalism,

1451
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 1: even neo conservatism, with a frequent but of jokes at

1452
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:35,320
Speaker 1: this conference. And what we're trying to do here is

1453
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 1: provide a nationalist flavor of conservatism. And nationalism, of course

1454
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:45,320
Speaker 1: is such a deeply deeply divisive term for any but

1455
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:47,360
Speaker 1: the organizer of those conference are really trying to bring

1456
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: it back and providing more national solidarity framework, a more

1457
01:32:52,080 --> 01:32:56,479
Speaker 1: of a common good oriented framework in sharp distinction to

1458
01:32:56,720 --> 01:33:01,280
Speaker 1: this kind of libertarian view of conservatism favors individual liberty

1459
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:02,920
Speaker 1: above all else. So that's what we were trying to

1460
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:06,200
Speaker 1: do with this conference. And interestingly, the conference brought together

1461
01:33:06,320 --> 01:33:09,840
Speaker 1: people who on their face might appear to be at

1462
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:13,960
Speaker 1: odds have actually duked it out in the intellectual sphere,

1463
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:18,120
Speaker 1: but clearly there are ideals that unite them. So, for example,

1464
01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:21,120
Speaker 1: John Bolton and Tucker Carlson were two of the keynote

1465
01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:24,759
Speaker 1: speakers during the conference. What would you say you saw

1466
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:28,920
Speaker 1: that unifies these people who seemingly take disparate positions, and

1467
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:31,759
Speaker 1: you know Tucker Carlson, for example, Will Savage, John Bolton

1468
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:35,880
Speaker 1: on an almost a nightly basis, So what unifies them? Yeah,

1469
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. Foreign policy was kind of the one

1470
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,760
Speaker 1: in areas I thought was probably most divisive. I think

1471
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:44,799
Speaker 1: a lot of people who called themselves nationalists can actually

1472
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:47,840
Speaker 1: agree to disagree within what that actually looks like on

1473
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:51,479
Speaker 1: a foreign policy landscape. But you know, as you and

1474
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:54,040
Speaker 1: I both know, Ben, even though John Balton excusing, even

1475
01:33:54,080 --> 01:33:56,840
Speaker 1: though John Bolton is very much a hawk, he is

1476
01:33:56,880 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 1: not a neo conservative. He has actually always reputia in servitism.

1477
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:05,559
Speaker 1: In fact, he has never supported any sort of moralistic interventionism,

1478
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:09,320
Speaker 1: never support any sort of nation building crusade trying to

1479
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:13,479
Speaker 1: sculpt Madisonian democracy out of a Sharia desert landscape. And

1480
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 1: he obviously supported the Iraq War, and he has supported

1481
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:19,479
Speaker 1: sundry interventions, but he's always done that out of a

1482
01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:22,559
Speaker 1: concrete focus on what he views as being in the

1483
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:25,160
Speaker 1: best narrow interests of the United States. And he was

1484
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:28,679
Speaker 1: never a liberal mugged by reality either for that matter, correct,

1485
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 1: absolutely correct. Going back to his time at Yale an

1486
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:33,439
Speaker 1: undergrad he was a member, I believe, of the Party

1487
01:34:33,439 --> 01:34:35,599
Speaker 1: of the Right, the right most party of the Yale

1488
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: Political Union. So he's a very very lengthy history on

1489
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:43,040
Speaker 1: the American right. And Tucker and Bolton obviously do not

1490
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 1: the odd ion foreign policy, but they very much do

1491
01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:50,479
Speaker 1: see eye to eye on upstream premises, and I think

1492
01:34:50,479 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 1: some most premises are you know, they both believe in

1493
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 1: the political philosophy of Emin Burke at the Emin Burke Foundation,

1494
01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:00,280
Speaker 1: with actually the group that organizes conference, so Burke played

1495
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:03,760
Speaker 1: a huge role, I think, kind of looming in the

1496
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:06,639
Speaker 1: background of a lot of the speakers. Thought. Bolton himself

1497
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:09,680
Speaker 1: actually in his Q and A with Krista Muth, referenced

1498
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:12,680
Speaker 1: Burke as actually a guiding light forrest foreign policy. But

1499
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:16,760
Speaker 1: I thought was actually super fascinating. So even though some

1500
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:21,280
Speaker 1: of the people disagree on policy, where they come down

1501
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 1: similarly is that the way they view the ultimate goal

1502
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:29,639
Speaker 1: of the American polity is through a narrow national self

1503
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:32,000
Speaker 1: interest lens. That was really the unifying team of the

1504
01:35:32,120 --> 01:35:36,040
Speaker 1: entire conference. I think it's it's worth pointing out how

1505
01:35:36,080 --> 01:35:41,559
Speaker 1: ironic it is that the non intellectual, pragmatist dealmaker, at

1506
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:44,080
Speaker 1: least as he portrayed himself, Donald Trump, is the one

1507
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:47,559
Speaker 1: that shook up the intellectual sphere and actually caused people

1508
01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:51,680
Speaker 1: on our side of things to question or try to

1509
01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:54,679
Speaker 1: understand and interpret what it is that unifies Trump's thought,

1510
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:57,680
Speaker 1: What it is that the electorate saw in Trump that

1511
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:01,200
Speaker 1: appealed to them and allowed allowed Trump to earn the

1512
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:04,519
Speaker 1: consent of the governed. I think it's very interesting just

1513
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:07,200
Speaker 1: to point that out. I also think it's critical that

1514
01:36:07,240 --> 01:36:10,240
Speaker 1: we point out or ask the question rather, how do

1515
01:36:10,320 --> 01:36:13,679
Speaker 1: we define nationalism? How was nationalism defined at this conference?

1516
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 1: Because defining our terms is probably one of the things

1517
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:19,080
Speaker 1: we most sorely lacked, both in the intellectual sphere and

1518
01:36:19,160 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 1: in the political sphere as well. Yeah, the defunding nationalism

1519
01:36:24,120 --> 01:36:27,320
Speaker 1: is crucial because in orders to kind of resuscitate this term,

1520
01:36:27,320 --> 01:36:30,960
Speaker 1: we first need to identify what it is. And you've

1521
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:37,120
Speaker 1: all Levin, who's a brilliant political theorists. You've all come

1522
01:36:37,200 --> 01:36:40,840
Speaker 1: from a slightly less nationalist, slightly more classy liberal frame

1523
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:44,800
Speaker 1: of frame of view. I would say he was. His

1524
01:36:44,920 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 1: remarks were inundated with kind of questioning what nationalism itself is.

1525
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:52,920
Speaker 1: But Joram Hazzoni, who was again the brainchild of this

1526
01:36:53,120 --> 01:36:57,200
Speaker 1: entire conference. His book, which won the Isis Conservative Book

1527
01:36:57,200 --> 01:36:59,760
Speaker 1: of the euro Award this past year, came out of

1528
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,240
Speaker 1: last summer, was called the Virtue of Nationalism. So he

1529
01:37:02,280 --> 01:37:06,000
Speaker 1: evolved all else has really done the intellectual groundwork and

1530
01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:09,760
Speaker 1: kind of reviving this term and making it basically a

1531
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:13,320
Speaker 1: healthy and salutary term mean contradistinction to the way Americans

1532
01:37:13,360 --> 01:37:16,439
Speaker 1: always learned in high school and being affiliated with pre

1533
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:19,320
Speaker 1: World War One belicostasy and then the eventual rise of

1534
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:21,680
Speaker 1: the World War two era fascists. So the way that

1535
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:28,160
Speaker 1: Hazzoni defines nationalism is in direct opposition to imperialism, and

1536
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:35,000
Speaker 1: imperialism is a willingness to project, either by ideas or

1537
01:37:35,040 --> 01:37:40,400
Speaker 1: by military force, the norms that dictate a nation unto

1538
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:44,439
Speaker 1: other nations and other distinct people. Whereas the nationalist tradition

1539
01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:49,120
Speaker 1: recognizes that humanity is best governed at a local level.

1540
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:54,479
Speaker 1: We are best not governed by transnational, unaccountable institutions such

1541
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 1: as the United Nations, the EU, NATO, International Criminal Court, etc.

1542
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:02,680
Speaker 1: And that is that this is the natural state of

1543
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:06,640
Speaker 1: affairs that humans naturally congregate and like muddy nations that

1544
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:09,640
Speaker 1: are that are tied down by a common culture and

1545
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:12,679
Speaker 1: values and norms, and then this is just the best

1546
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:16,080
Speaker 1: general global order by which to govern all of our affairs.

1547
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:19,480
Speaker 1: So that was the pretty anodyne, innocent view of nationalism.

1548
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:22,679
Speaker 1: I would say that was pretty pervasive at the conference. Josh,

1549
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:25,439
Speaker 1: we've got about a minute lefter, a little bit less here.

1550
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:30,280
Speaker 1: Do you see there being a coalescing among intellectuals on

1551
01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:33,400
Speaker 1: the conservative side. It's clear that among the Republican electorate

1552
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:36,600
Speaker 1: there's almost unanimity with respect to President Trump. Do you

1553
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:39,800
Speaker 1: see the fractures ultimately healing on the conservative side or

1554
01:38:39,880 --> 01:38:43,960
Speaker 1: is it going to continue to fracture. It's a great question,

1555
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:47,360
Speaker 1: you know. I think back to that X Y scatter

1556
01:38:47,439 --> 01:38:49,679
Speaker 1: plot that everyone has seen that kind of breaks down

1557
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:54,400
Speaker 1: economics and social liberalism. Conservatism libertarianism if we define it

1558
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:57,559
Speaker 1: as economic conservatism and social liberalism, is like three to

1559
01:38:57,600 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 1: four percent of the voters. So even though it is

1560
01:39:00,320 --> 01:39:03,599
Speaker 1: predominance in the college dorm room and in some squats

1561
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:07,000
Speaker 1: of kind of the elite quote unquote right, it is

1562
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:09,680
Speaker 1: not popular at all, and that divide is only going

1563
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:11,760
Speaker 1: to get starker. And I really think that what we

1564
01:39:11,840 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 1: saw at this National Conservatives and Conference really is the

1565
01:39:14,439 --> 01:39:17,720
Speaker 1: vanguard of where we're going. And I Centator Holly was

1566
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:19,880
Speaker 1: the only elected official to speak here. I think he

1567
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:23,839
Speaker 1: is leading this vanguard. And I think that it really

1568
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:25,439
Speaker 1: in the end, you're kind of going to have to

1569
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:27,720
Speaker 1: get You're gonna have to get on board or just

1570
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:30,120
Speaker 1: miss the train, because this really is I think where

1571
01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:33,040
Speaker 1: we're going. On that note, we've been speaking with Josh Hammer,

1572
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:35,200
Speaker 1: editor at large of The Deli Wire and a great

1573
01:39:35,280 --> 01:39:38,200
Speaker 1: prolific writer. He's also of counsel at First Liberty Institute

1574
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:41,719
Speaker 1: at the Texas based religious Liberty legal defense firm. Josh,

1575
01:39:41,800 --> 01:39:44,120
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. You got it, Ben,

1576
01:39:45,280 --> 01:39:47,280
Speaker 1: And this is Ben Weingarton in four Buck Sexon on

1577
01:39:47,280 --> 01:39:49,880
Speaker 1: the Buck Sexon Show back right after this, Welcome back

1578
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,280
Speaker 1: to the Buck Sexon Show. This is Ben Weinarten in

1579
01:39:52,479 --> 01:39:55,840
Speaker 1: four Buck Sexon. Appreciate your spending a few hours here

1580
01:39:56,160 --> 01:39:58,719
Speaker 1: on this Friday night and hope you all are getting

1581
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 1: ready for a great weekend with your families and friends.

1582
01:40:02,840 --> 01:40:05,640
Speaker 1: I want to take a moment before we conclude the

1583
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:09,040
Speaker 1: show to look back on events from fifty years ago,

1584
01:40:09,960 --> 01:40:13,560
Speaker 1: a seminal event actually in American history that was overshadowed

1585
01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:15,280
Speaker 1: by a couple of other things like man walking on

1586
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 1: the moon. Also the Mets winning the World Series, the

1587
01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:20,880
Speaker 1: Miracle Mets, which jeez, it seems like it was five

1588
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:27,680
Speaker 1: hundred years ago. What happened fifty years ago yesterday was

1589
01:40:27,760 --> 01:40:33,200
Speaker 1: chap Aquittic, the scandal of all scandals involving the Kennedy family,

1590
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:36,799
Speaker 1: a family whose entire legacy has been in mashed in scandal.

1591
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:41,840
Speaker 1: I saw a tweet yesterday from AP Images that said

1592
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:45,759
Speaker 1: this quote. Fifty years ago today, Senator Edward M. Kennedy

1593
01:40:45,840 --> 01:40:47,960
Speaker 1: left a party on chapa Quittic Island near month of

1594
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:51,559
Speaker 1: his vineyard with Mary Joe Capecney. Twenty eight Sometime later,

1595
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:55,000
Speaker 1: Kennedy's car went off a bridge into the water. Kennedy

1596
01:40:55,040 --> 01:41:00,000
Speaker 1: was able to escape, but Copecney drowned. AP left out

1597
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 1: a few elements of this story here, and it shows

1598
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:07,120
Speaker 1: you perfectly how the left, how the media, which is

1599
01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 1: really just the mouthpiece of the left, and this is

1600
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:13,799
Speaker 1: ap images for God's sake, whitewash's history when it serves

1601
01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:19,320
Speaker 1: their narrative. Kennedy left a party with someone. Sometime later

1602
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:21,120
Speaker 1: his car went off a bridge into the water. As

1603
01:41:21,120 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 1: if he was not driving the car, he was not

1604
01:41:23,160 --> 01:41:26,679
Speaker 1: responsible for getting behind the wheel that night after a party,

1605
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 1: someone notorious for drinking and womanizing, someone who may may

1606
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:34,040
Speaker 1: very well have been involved in a relationship, an extramarital

1607
01:41:34,120 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 1: relationship with Mary Joe Coopecney. Sometime later, his car went

1608
01:41:38,800 --> 01:41:41,040
Speaker 1: off the bridge. Kennedy was able to escape, but Copecney drowned.

1609
01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:43,719
Speaker 1: That's an interesting way of framing what happened that evening.

1610
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:49,920
Speaker 1: I find it amazing that whitewashing juxtaposed with what we're

1611
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 1: seeing now, which is that all of the candidates on

1612
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:56,200
Speaker 1: the left for president are going out there and trying

1613
01:41:56,240 --> 01:42:00,120
Speaker 1: to apologize for all the positions they held that two

1614
01:42:00,160 --> 01:42:02,920
Speaker 1: seconds ago. We're fine, but now we'll bring the social

1615
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:06,559
Speaker 1: justice warrior mob or Antifa or the like outside their

1616
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 1: houses to try to tear them down. People are apologizing

1617
01:42:13,040 --> 01:42:16,360
Speaker 1: over what their ancestors did generations and generations ago, things

1618
01:42:16,400 --> 01:42:19,000
Speaker 1: that they're not culpable for things they may not have

1619
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:21,479
Speaker 1: even known until they probably had an oppo research or

1620
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:24,519
Speaker 1: do the research for them to figure it out. We're

1621
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:26,880
Speaker 1: in a time today where what are kind of the

1622
01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:30,320
Speaker 1: dominant trends in culture and society on the left, in

1623
01:42:30,320 --> 01:42:36,160
Speaker 1: particular me too. There's this focus on power relationships. There's

1624
01:42:36,160 --> 01:42:40,000
Speaker 1: a focus on privilege and mail privilege and in particular

1625
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:44,960
Speaker 1: white male privilege. On the Kennedy family personifies it embodies it.

1626
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:49,479
Speaker 1: But you will see almost nothing about chap aquittic in

1627
01:42:49,479 --> 01:42:51,640
Speaker 1: the news. But for the kind of whitewashing that we

1628
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:55,240
Speaker 1: have right here, why why is that the case? Why

1629
01:42:55,320 --> 01:42:58,120
Speaker 1: isn't a microphone in every candidate's face asking do you

1630
01:42:58,240 --> 01:43:01,920
Speaker 1: denounce ted Kennedy, who drove off a bridge killed this woman,

1631
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:05,120
Speaker 1: And it appears, based upon what the inquest found after

1632
01:43:05,160 --> 01:43:08,640
Speaker 1: the fact, allowed her to suffocate when he could have

1633
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:10,920
Speaker 1: gone to authorities and potentially saved her life. In fact,

1634
01:43:11,000 --> 01:43:13,559
Speaker 1: let me just read quickly from the inquest. This is

1635
01:43:13,560 --> 01:43:16,920
Speaker 1: from a diver who was on the scene in court

1636
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:19,880
Speaker 1: filings quote from John Ferrar. It looked as if she

1637
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 1: were holding herself up to get a last breath of air.

1638
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 1: It was a consciously assumed position She didn't drown. She

1639
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:27,800
Speaker 1: died of suffocation in her own air void. It took

1640
01:43:27,840 --> 01:43:30,120
Speaker 1: her at least three or four hours to die. I

1641
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:31,760
Speaker 1: could have had her out of that car twenty five

1642
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:33,960
Speaker 1: minutes after I got the call, But he didn't call.

1643
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:38,559
Speaker 1: He being Ted Kennedy. Ted Kennedy didn't call anyone in

1644
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:41,000
Speaker 1: terms of the authorities until the next day. He did

1645
01:43:41,040 --> 01:43:43,280
Speaker 1: get his friends together, he did reach out to lawyers,

1646
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:46,880
Speaker 1: he did try to cover himself. But meanwhile, this woman

1647
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:50,400
Speaker 1: drowned and died. And by all accounts it appears that

1648
01:43:50,439 --> 01:43:53,080
Speaker 1: if he had gone to the authorities sooner, her life

1649
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:55,320
Speaker 1: could have been saved. And said he swam to safety,

1650
01:43:55,760 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 1: she died. Did he pay a price for this? Well,

1651
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:03,280
Speaker 1: he was never president, but in the annals of history

1652
01:44:03,439 --> 01:44:05,680
Speaker 1: he is called the lion of the Senate. This was

1653
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:08,879
Speaker 1: someone who is a drinker, a carouser, someone who, according

1654
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:12,000
Speaker 1: to one of the most horrible accounts that's almost unreadable

1655
01:44:12,040 --> 01:44:15,000
Speaker 1: on air. Believe it was in GQ talked about him

1656
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:19,400
Speaker 1: and Chris Dodd, his beloved liberal colleague, forced themselves on women.

1657
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:25,240
Speaker 1: How could it be that the hagiography The hagiography continues

1658
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:29,160
Speaker 1: with Ted Kennedy to today. I would suggest it's this.

1659
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:33,000
Speaker 1: All of this is ultimately about power. It's a facade

1660
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:36,160
Speaker 1: for power. When they talk about being virtuous and they

1661
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:39,720
Speaker 1: talk about treating people with dignity and they try to

1662
01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:44,240
Speaker 1: call people deplorable, that's projection. There are people who are

1663
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:47,960
Speaker 1: deplorable in their party. They're not shunned, their names aren't

1664
01:44:47,960 --> 01:44:51,320
Speaker 1: taken off buildings, their statues aren't torn down. All the

1665
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:55,040
Speaker 1: matters ultimately is did that person win? Did that person

1666
01:44:55,080 --> 01:44:59,240
Speaker 1: push the ball down the field for our cause? Mary

1667
01:44:59,320 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 1: Jocopecni was just one of the millions of victims of

1668
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:06,000
Speaker 1: leftist policy in the fifty years since nineteen sixty nine,

1669
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:11,320
Speaker 1: since chap Aquittic. But it's always supposedly they're good intentions

1670
01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:15,840
Speaker 1: that seem to matter. Ted Kennedy was the liberal lion

1671
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:18,120
Speaker 1: of the Senate, that's all that mattered. Ultimately. If he

1672
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:20,320
Speaker 1: was a terrible person in his personal life didn't matter.

1673
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:22,799
Speaker 1: And obviously we can separate the personal from the political,

1674
01:45:22,840 --> 01:45:25,040
Speaker 1: but they have created that standard where they are one

1675
01:45:25,040 --> 01:45:26,759
Speaker 1: and the same, at least when it comes to wielding

1676
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:29,599
Speaker 1: it as a cudgel against their political adversaries. And by

1677
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:33,320
Speaker 1: the way, Kennedy really colluded with the Russian. So let's

1678
01:45:33,400 --> 01:45:36,760
Speaker 1: really talk about projection here. I think this is a

1679
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:39,439
Speaker 1: fitting analogy for what the left has done. It's all

1680
01:45:39,439 --> 01:45:43,400
Speaker 1: about good intentions, but ultimately people get hurt. On that note,

1681
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:46,240
Speaker 1: we need to defeat them every way we can, starting

1682
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:48,800
Speaker 1: with the ideas and ending at the ballot box. This

1683
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:50,519
Speaker 1: has been Ben Wangeren in for Buck Sex, and I

1684
01:45:50,560 --> 01:45:52,280
Speaker 1: want to thank Buck sexon for giving me the chance

1685
01:45:52,320 --> 01:45:54,320
Speaker 1: to fill in. I want to thank you for taking

1686
01:45:54,320 --> 01:45:57,920
Speaker 1: this time and sharing it with me. Have a great weekend.

1687
01:45:58,000 --> 01:45:58,719
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.