1
00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production

2
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,320
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday and Holly Frye and

3
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about Annri Louis d'argeon

4
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 1: this week. Yeah, I didn't realize that the timing of

5
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,280
Speaker 1: her life dovetails nicely with Vandyck. Oh. Yeah, that's kind

6
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,600
Speaker 1: of like, here's two things that were going on kind

7
00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 1: of simultaneously, since he was trying to get the commission

8
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,239
Speaker 1: to decorate some of the palace for Louis the thirteenth

9
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,200
Speaker 1: and didn't get it. There are several things we did

10
00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,000
Speaker 1: not that Die didn't include in the actual show for

11
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,320
Speaker 1: various reasons, some that it would just require. I mean,

12
00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:47,919
Speaker 1: I felt like we had to spend so much time

13
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 1: explaining how the frond worked, because there anytime I've read

14
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 1: about it in the past, when I haven't done like

15
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,320
Speaker 1: a deep enough dive, I always walk away scratching my

16
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 1: head and going, wait, I thought those guys were friends,

17
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 1: like not under standing that whole turn that happened right

18
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,479
Speaker 1: when Parliament was like we got a good deal for us,

19
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:11,360
Speaker 1: guys and the nobility were like, excuse one of the

20
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,760
Speaker 1: things that we didn't talk about though, is Anne of

21
00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:20,720
Speaker 1: Austria and Mazarin's rumors we have no substantiation that they

22
00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,680
Speaker 1: were in fact romantically involved. Yeah, we talked about that

23
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: in our hortenth the Marie. Yeah, like we can talk

24
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 1: about it. It was a brief mention, right that. Yeah,

25
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 1: which you know, there are even rumors that they secretly

26
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,320
Speaker 1: got married. Yeah. And this is a thing that I

27
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,279
Speaker 1: don't know how to feel about, not specific to them,

28
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:49,520
Speaker 1: but in general, I feel like any time, especially when

29
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 1: there is a woman regent, like a mother to a monarch,

30
00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 1: who is kind of running things and she is a

31
00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 1: male advisor, the rumor is always that they're having an

32
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 1: a fan or that they are in love or possibly

33
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,480
Speaker 1: even married. I mean we even see this with like

34
00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,160
Speaker 1: Queen Victoria's mother and her advisor, Like there are even

35
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,560
Speaker 1: theories that that man is actually Victoria's father in some circles,

36
00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,920
Speaker 1: and then even Victoria and her advisors, And like, there's

37
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,120
Speaker 1: part of me that's like, is there no way people

38
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,760
Speaker 1: could imagine that a man and woman could be working

39
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,080
Speaker 1: together and not have some sort of romance between them, right,

40
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, I'm like it's all

41
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: so insulated and weird. I could see it being very

42
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 1: natural for two people in that position where they're constantly

43
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,640
Speaker 1: together and the only two people that can really understand

44
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 1: the other's life situation, where that would kind of magically

45
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: set the alchemy to in play of like a romance developing.

46
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, the bottom line is people

47
00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,359
Speaker 1: will always speculate about whether or not any two people

48
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,240
Speaker 1: secretly are having some sort of romance. It just always

49
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,720
Speaker 1: makes me think about these things. I have no like

50
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,920
Speaker 1: summation or position on it. I just always find myself going, yeah,

51
00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 1: but it just is that the only thing we could

52
00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,800
Speaker 1: possibly massine, the only option, right, like maybe they could

53
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 1: just be BFFs you. I mean, I don't know. The

54
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 1: other thing that we didn't mention is that Anne Marie

55
00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,160
Speaker 1: Louise connects to another podcast we did not that long ago,

56
00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,640
Speaker 1: which is Jean Baptiste Lulie h the Conductor, because she

57
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: is the one who brought him to French court for

58
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,840
Speaker 1: the first time, and so that's pretty fascinating. Nothing more

59
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,000
Speaker 1: than that fascinating. Okay, here's the gross part. Okay, gross parte.

60
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: If you are squeamish about post mortem yuckiness, I don't know,

61
00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 1: maybe skip ahead a minute and a half. Allegedly at

62
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 1: the funeral, something had gone wrong with her embalming, and

63
00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 1: there was an urn. I don't know why this would

64
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 1: be the case. I'm sure there's some reason, but there

65
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,080
Speaker 1: was an urn that would have had entrails in it, okay,

66
00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:23,600
Speaker 1: and allegedly it exploded. Oh gross. And this was at

67
00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,720
Speaker 1: the brand new area that had been built of Versailles.

68
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,839
Speaker 1: So her, like some people have joked, her parting gift

69
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 1: was just to stink up Versailles on her way out

70
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 1: because it was apparently utterly disgusting. I don't know if

71
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 1: this is true or not. Yeah, I'm having question marks

72
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,839
Speaker 1: about like exactly what right? Me too, Like what was

73
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,159
Speaker 1: happening with embalming at this point? Well, and the thing is,

74
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,240
Speaker 1: even if embalming was well established at this point, there

75
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,960
Speaker 1: is always the possibility that one guy got it wrong. Now, Yeah,

76
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 1: like I know, in North America, it's a compareative recent thing,

77
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,240
Speaker 1: like a nineteenth century thing, not a so yeah. Yeah.

78
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 1: But still there's also the factor that, right, we are

79
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:17,360
Speaker 1: getting these accounts. This came up in that Sackville West biography,

80
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,799
Speaker 1: and so we're getting that account translated, and I also

81
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,120
Speaker 1: have that thing of like has anybody gone back to

82
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,159
Speaker 1: retranslate it, or even are there things that the best

83
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,240
Speaker 1: translator might not get because there's some nuance in the

84
00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 1: wording that we that is completely out of practice now

85
00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,320
Speaker 1: that nobody that wasn't even very popular to begin with,

86
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,280
Speaker 1: like some turn a phrase, so don't I don't know.

87
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,279
Speaker 1: That's why I didn't want to include it. One because yuck,

88
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,760
Speaker 1: and two because I feel like there's some mystery as

89
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,279
Speaker 1: to whether or not it's true. But it's it's a

90
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 1: funny thing to think about that. Even on the way out,

91
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:58,479
Speaker 1: she kind of flipped the bird to the mark. Uh nope.

92
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,560
Speaker 1: So two things. The first thing is what you were

93
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,360
Speaker 1: saying about like very old documents being translated. It reminded

94
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,200
Speaker 1: me a little bit of these annotated editions of Jane

95
00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 1: Austen's novels that I have, where it really is like

96
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 1: the page of the novel on one page and the

97
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 1: facing page and all annotations on it, and how much

98
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:25,400
Speaker 1: of that is just explaining things that is not not

99
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 1: terminology we use now, not how we think about things now,

100
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 1: stuff like that, where like it would be like that

101
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,480
Speaker 1: furnishings meant furniture like that one came up several times

102
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 1: reason I remember it. But when there was one of

103
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,040
Speaker 1: the things that we were reading that was a quote

104
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 1: from her, and I stumbled over it and you were like,

105
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. And I had a

106
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 1: moment where it reminded me of that, of like reading

107
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,600
Speaker 1: through all of these annotations that just explained things that

108
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,839
Speaker 1: just aren't things that we say or do now so much.

109
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 1: The other thing is I was reading the outline for

110
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,320
Speaker 1: this episode when you sent me out, when you sent

111
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,760
Speaker 1: it over to me, and I got to the part

112
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,880
Speaker 1: where it said Victoria Sackville West, and I was like, oh,

113
00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 1: that's funny. Is she related to Vita Sackville West? Because

114
00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 1: it had just never occurred to me that her full

115
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:24,200
Speaker 1: first name was Victoria. Yeah, Like I have never heard

116
00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,280
Speaker 1: her referred to as anything. I've admittedly, like never read

117
00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,120
Speaker 1: a full complete biography of her or anything, but like,

118
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 1: I have always heard her referred to as Vita Sackville West.

119
00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 1: So I just immediately assumed that this Victoria was some

120
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,679
Speaker 1: other person. She was not one and the same. Yes, listen,

121
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm always gonna say Victoria because I love it.

122
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, Anne, Marie Louise, Yeah, I really, I mean

123
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 2: I said it to you during one of our breaks,

124
00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:02,200
Speaker 2: but I really marvel at her being actively engaged in battle.

125
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I likened it too. You know, if if

126
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,120
Speaker 1: somebody like Paris Hilton was like, yeah, I'm gonna get

127
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:16,240
Speaker 1: involved in active combat, you'd be like, what it was

128
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,280
Speaker 1: that sort of unusual. And there are a lot of

129
00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 1: interesting paintings of her that kind of borrow from that

130
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:33,200
Speaker 1: Amazon nickname. She was apparently a very big personality and

131
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,559
Speaker 1: people liked being around her, whether she liked being around

132
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 1: them or not. That I do also find it really

133
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,440
Speaker 1: interesting that someone that was so central to life at

134
00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,440
Speaker 1: court and seemed to love it was suddenly like let's

135
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 1: run away and not be part of this at all.

136
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 1: But that's also, you know, kind of the beginning of

137
00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,000
Speaker 1: that trend that happened by the time we get to

138
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:05,040
Speaker 1: Louis the sixteenth, like where you know, like Marie Antoinette

139
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 1: got really into Russou and was like, let's live out

140
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,960
Speaker 1: in nature and had a tiny farm built for herself.

141
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,240
Speaker 1: Those are connected ideas, they're just yeah, they're a little

142
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,719
Speaker 1: ways apart on the timeline, but like they're in the

143
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:23,199
Speaker 1: same vein of trend in the royalty. Yeah, I don't,

144
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,680
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want a farm. I mean, farms

145
00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,720
Speaker 1: are neat to visit. But I can't imagine me like,

146
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,440
Speaker 1: let's go live in the middle of nowhere. We'll put

147
00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 1: some hermit holes in the forest. And also, to me,

148
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,000
Speaker 1: it's one of those things that just seems like the

149
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,320
Speaker 1: indulgent fantasy of a privileged mind, right, Like the more

150
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,840
Speaker 1: appealing thing to me would be like kind of like

151
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,960
Speaker 1: a neighborhood. Yeah, but more like the houses are arranged

152
00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,560
Speaker 1: around like a central common area. Yeah, and all of

153
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 1: my friends live in them, and so I can just

154
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,280
Speaker 1: like walk next door to my friend's house and in

155
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,439
Speaker 1: the summertime we can all, you know, hang out in

156
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 1: the nice weather, cook some food, and not have to

157
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 1: do this situation where it's like I got to drive

158
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,760
Speaker 1: twenty minutes or take an hour on the train to go,

159
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 1: yeah see a friend. Yeah, that's really the options. Twenty

160
00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,000
Speaker 1: minutes in the car an hour on the train, right.

161
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,280
Speaker 1: I always say that if I magically were to like

162
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: win the lottery, yeah, I would just make offers to

163
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,080
Speaker 1: all of our neighbors, yeah, to buy their houses. So

164
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 1: one is obviously for like shoes, shoe house, and you know,

165
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 1: the various things I have purchased too much of and

166
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,400
Speaker 1: need more space for. But that others we would fix

167
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 1: up to be like, you know, anybody who needs a

168
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 1: place to live can hang right, just maybe put a

169
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 1: roller rink in one of them. That's one of the

170
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,280
Speaker 1: that's one of my big things lately to think.

171
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:18,200
Speaker 3: About, right, come on, lottery.

172
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,440
Speaker 1: He talked about Harrison Dyer. This week we did we're

173
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,200
Speaker 1: recording other episodes after this one that are coming out

174
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,560
Speaker 1: next week. And I have said this is accidental drama

175
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,280
Speaker 1: week because there's so much drama in this episode and

176
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,319
Speaker 1: then there's so much drama that's a little sneak preview

177
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 1: also accidental but high faith theme, oh yeah, yeah, random,

178
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,000
Speaker 1: And I didn't go into that very much here. There's

179
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 1: so much I didn't go into. I don't either in

180
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: the upcoming ones. And I this this may sound frightening initially,

181
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:56,960
Speaker 1: but I feel like I understand Harrison Dyer on one level,

182
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 1: yeah right, because he is clearly compulsive. Like you know,

183
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 1: Mark Epstein kind of lays out the case in his

184
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:07,920
Speaker 1: book that like if you look at the way he

185
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 1: did all of his work, like the way he kept

186
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 1: his notes, the way he lived his life in all

187
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,720
Speaker 1: other ways. He had compulsion issues. Right, he never did

188
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 1: anything by half measure. He had to have all of

189
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,240
Speaker 1: the insects specimens. Yet and I totally get that. I

190
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:26,880
Speaker 1: have that that same drive to like I wanted to

191
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,839
Speaker 1: dig to the center of the earth as a kid,

192
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,320
Speaker 1: I tried to cordon off the playground sandbox so that

193
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,920
Speaker 1: people would not mess up my project. I understand. I

194
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 1: understand all of that. I understand. I listen. I have

195
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,840
Speaker 1: a shoe problem, I have a fabric problem, I have

196
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 1: all of the collecting of things problems. I get compulsion.

197
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,560
Speaker 1: But where I'm like, wait a minute, is that like

198
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,600
Speaker 1: then to kind of make that into like a tool

199
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 1: of cruelty is very weird to me. Sure, And That's

200
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 1: where I'm like, dude, you could have just been a

201
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,839
Speaker 1: fun cook instead of a jerk and we would have

202
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:09,960
Speaker 1: loved you. And who made up a whole person in

203
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,800
Speaker 1: order to be a big a mess in order to

204
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,720
Speaker 1: be a big a miss? And there are some interesting

205
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,200
Speaker 1: theories about his bigamy. One thing that came up that

206
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:21,640
Speaker 1: I thought was really really interesting was in that Nevada

207
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 1: Supreme court case where they heard the appeal of Wileska's

208
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:33,400
Speaker 1: divorce is there's nurse testimony where they have the nurse

209
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,720
Speaker 1: who delivered or was present at the hospital where they

210
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 1: delivered several of Wileska's kids. I don't know if it

211
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 1: was all three or just one or two, but she

212
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,840
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you know, I thought it was odd

213
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 1: that this other guy was there and that he would

214
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,319
Speaker 1: lie down in bed with her at the hospital. And

215
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, what, there's like an element of it where

216
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,319
Speaker 1: they're they're both so cloak and daggery and so brazen

217
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 1: about the whole thing that I'm like, this is just bananas. Yeah,

218
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 1: And the idea that like, she tied up so much

219
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 1: valuable time in the legal system trying to divorce her

220
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:19,000
Speaker 1: imaginary friend because she accidentally had a paper trayl of

221
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: that imaginary friend that she had to get rid of

222
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 1: to marry the guy she actually wanted to be married

223
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,040
Speaker 1: to who was her imaginary friend. Like, it's just it's

224
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,440
Speaker 1: very Yeah, it's a lot. There's a whole lot. And

225
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,520
Speaker 1: that's not even the tunnels. No, I mean I find

226
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 1: that whole part way more interesting than the tunnels. Actually, obviously,

227
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 1: I just find the tunnel part scary because the idea

228
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,800
Speaker 1: that he was I mean, it does seem like some

229
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,160
Speaker 1: of his neighbors knew about it at least at one point. Yeah.

230
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: I kind of think if I had been a neighbor,

231
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 1: I might have raised the alarm of being like, hey,

232
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,360
Speaker 1: this guy's tunneling big giant tunnels and my house is

233
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,440
Speaker 1: going to be struck really unsound. Well, I will say this.

234
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 1: Here are my two thoughts on why nobody raised a

235
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 1: stink Okay, even though he was not an engineer. I

236
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 1: think because he was respected as an intellectual, they thought like,

237
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 1: he knows what he's doing. And also, I don't think

238
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,080
Speaker 1: they realized how extensive. They weren't sure. I think they

239
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 1: just thought like that guy just loves to dig. I

240
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,920
Speaker 1: don't know, he's just moving dirt around down there. Yeah,

241
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 1: I bet they did not realize how far it went.

242
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 1: That also seems to be the case with the person

243
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 1: tunneling on TikTok. I have not been into the tunnel

244
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 1: TikTok very much, but it digbors are mad about it.

245
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 1: Her neighbors are mad about it, for sure. But it

246
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,760
Speaker 1: also seems like the projects she initially started of I'm

247
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 1: gonna make like a sort of bunker slash shelter expanded

248
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,680
Speaker 1: into something much much bigger, and like that was when

249
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 1: it really became a problem for the neighbors. That's at

250
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,440
Speaker 1: least my cursory understanding of having not gone down that

251
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 1: rabbit hole on the TikTok because it stresses me out. Yeah,

252
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 1: that's more or less my take on it as well.

253
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 1: And I too have not gone deep into it because

254
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 1: I'm just like, ugh, I can't with that level of drama.

255
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 1: Here is an interesting thing that ties some of this

256
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 1: weird bigamy issue together in a strange way. There's still okay,

257
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 1: we're making a constellation of data points here that I'm like, huh.

258
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 1: Five days after Zella and Harrison got married, Harrison's sister

259
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,720
Speaker 1: Pearl got married to a man named Siguard Adolphus Knop.

260
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,960
Speaker 1: Was this a real person, Yes, to a real person

261
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:54,720
Speaker 1: who was a doctor and a eugenicist. Oh dear, Oh,

262
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 1: so I'm surprising to have eugenics at this point in history.

263
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 1: And there have been some efforts at trying to understand

264
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:13,199
Speaker 1: Harrison's behavior in this double life, and eugenics plays a

265
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:19,480
Speaker 1: part in it because there are two big chunks of

266
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 1: material where a lot of information that we have about

267
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 1: him in terms of availability to present day come from.

268
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,880
Speaker 1: And one is a series of articles that came out

269
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,840
Speaker 1: in The Washington Post in twenty twelve written by John

270
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,680
Speaker 1: Kelly where he kind of lays out the whole story.

271
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 1: And then we have Epstein's book, and both of them

272
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 1: mentioned that it seems as though Harrison was himself a

273
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 1: eugenicist who believed his genetics were superior, oh dear, and

274
00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:00,919
Speaker 1: that this may have been both the real catalyst for

275
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 1: his conflicts with Zella, because she was not and also

276
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 1: she ended up having hearing loss that she thought was genetic,

277
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: and so that is why she did not want to

278
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 1: have more children, and thus he went, well, I got

279
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,520
Speaker 1: to have more children with someone, oh dear, and that

280
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,120
Speaker 1: that may have been his It's a little bit tricky, right,

281
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 1: because I don't want anyone to think like that justifies it,

282
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,920
Speaker 1: or we're trying to say that that explains it, but

283
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 1: it is an explainer of his behavior, which is still bad. Right.

284
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,359
Speaker 1: And there's also this thing that comes up periodically, and

285
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,919
Speaker 1: I'm like, this gets real squirrely of people wanting to

286
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 1: kind of carefully suggest that Zella had stopped having sex

287
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 1: with him, and that that's why he was driven to

288
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,720
Speaker 1: another woman. I have very strong feelings about this, which

289
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,440
Speaker 1: are like, cool, if that relationship is a worker for

290
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 1: you anymore, get out of it and then go find

291
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 1: what makes you happy. But don't this degree of concoction

292
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 1: of a completely fake thing and very purposely lying right unacceptable? Yeah,

293
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 1: it's super duper weird to me, and it's so yuckis

294
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 1: I don't?

295
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 2: So?

296
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:40,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, he he's a monster. He also in Being a

297
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 1: Jerk would we mentioned a little bit of his his

298
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 1: fiction writing which we didn't get into deeply, that he did,

299
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,439
Speaker 1: and which he included sometimes in the publication Reality and

300
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 1: he would do these really really it's almost like you know,

301
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 1: self in assertion friend fiction that he would do in

302
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,880
Speaker 1: some of these stories, because a lot of his stories

303
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 1: were clearly about things that were part of his life,

304
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: like like having two families, like having But he did

305
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 1: one after he went after miss Mitchell for her book

306
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 1: and she sued him. He later wrote a short story

307
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 1: called The Taming of a Suffragette in which she is

308
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 1: clearly a character in it that is very thinly veiled

309
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 1: that of course becomes like you know, not the hero

310
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 1: of the piece, that's for sure. This is another accidental

311
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: theme between today. I like this episode on Dire and

312
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 1: like our next week episodes. I feel like people are

313
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: gonna start guessing in the listener mail of what next

314
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 1: week's episodes are because next week's episodes also have a

315
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 1: number of purported works of fiction that were like thinly

316
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 1: veiled autobiography. Yeah, yeah, I have such a list. I

317
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 1: don't want to hit everything. You're probably wondering, or if

318
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 1: you haven't, maybe you will now what happened to those tunnels? Well, yeah,

319
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: that's a great question. His old neighborhood still structurally unsound.

320
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 1: The tunnels at fifteen twelve twenty First Street got left

321
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: there for a while. One of the sets of tunnels

322
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: I think that second house on B Street got sold

323
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 1: to the government, and well LESCA thought they were using

324
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: it to like the tunnels to grow mushrooms as like

325
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 1: part of a scientific experiment. And then later there was

326
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 1: actually some discussion of and I think even legislation introduced

327
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 1: of like hey, we got these perfectly good tunnels under Washington,

328
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 1: d C. Why don't we use them as like raid shelters,

329
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,160
Speaker 1: Like why don't we fortify them and actually make them

330
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 1: into spaces that can have public benefit. And a survey

331
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: was done and it was determined they aren't really big

332
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: enough to work that way, even though they're pretty big,

333
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 1: like just in terms of like the narrowness of spaces

334
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 1: and putting people in cramp spaces in an emergency that

335
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: was not really viable. And then the Big tunnel, apparently

336
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty eight, started to collapse. And one of

337
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: the things that's interesting, this is kind of the end

338
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: of Epstein's book, is when he mentions that there's this

339
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: kind of interesting timing where as that tunnel was starting

340
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: to collapse and Dyer's name came up in the news again,

341
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 1: his kids from each of his family visited that tunnel

342
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 1: like as a like, okay, here's what my dad did,

343
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: and like that's the one thing that brought them sort

344
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: of together. They didn't seem to interact or anything. It

345
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: was like one was there at one point in the

346
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: day and okay, and I'm just like, this is the

347
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: weirdest this is the weirdest code, to the weirdest story,

348
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 1: to the weirdest behavior. Yeah, there is a really fun

349
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: note that I want to end his story on because

350
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: it's not about him at all, Okay, it is about

351
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: his collaborator, JB. Smith, who worked a lot in this

352
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: as well, his fellow entomologist. And I mean when I

353
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: say these two men went at it like there are

354
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: if you wanted to do just an episode on scientific

355
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: argument m we could easily do it and read their

356
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: correspondence back and forth and things that they wrote to

357
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 1: other people about each other, and things they put in

358
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: journals about each other and like. But someone at some

359
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: point had kind of pointedly asked JB. Smith, like, why

360
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: do you still work with this man if you clearly

361
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: have so many problems? And his response was, I am

362
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: more interested in mosquitoes than in quarreling, okay. And I'm like,

363
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: that is probably the best attitude anyone could have in

364
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: dealing with someone like Harrison Dyer, I agree, who clearly

365
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: loved to quarrel, loved it, and loved to make his

366
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: life complicated. I imagine him down there digging, being like, man,

367
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: what did I do? I'm really in it, Like I

368
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: got two families to support, I got a lot of problems,

369
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: and I made them all myself. I don't know compulsion.

370
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: I get the cruelty not so much. Right. If this

371
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: is your weekend coming up, we hope you don't have

372
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: to deal with anybody quarrelsome complicated, or in any way

373
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: possibly passing themselves off as a fictional person. If you

374
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: have to work or have other responsibilities that don't give

375
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: you this time off, I still hope you don't have

376
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: to deal with any of that, and I hope you

377
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: get some time for yourself. We will be right back

378
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 1: here tomorrow with a classic episode, and then again on

379
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: Monday with something brand new. Stuff you missed in History

380
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

381
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

382
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.