1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I lived in the 2 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: mountains from the time as a college professor up into 3 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: North George Mountains, in the Blue Ridge Mountains specifically, there 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: was a place I'd like to go to every now 5 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: and then and hop on my truck, sometimes by myself, 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: many times with my son and toe. My wife and 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: I would go up there on the weekends as well, 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: and it's one of those places that's untouched. It's a 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: federal park. It's called Windfield Scott and there's actually a 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: lake Windfield Scott up there, and when you see it, 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: it's surrounded by hemlock trees and these big beautiful indigenous pines, 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: some hardwoods, and the lake is stocked with trout. But 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: you know, the thing about that lake is that on 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: the surface it's absolutely gorgeous. The water seems almost untouched, 15 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: and you can take photos up there and it's like 16 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: it's frozen in toime a place of a beauty. You 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: almost hate to disturb the water. But the moment you 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: pick up a stone and you throw it as you're 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: standing on the bank, into the middle of it, there's 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: a ripple that goes out and anything that's on the 21 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: surface is affected. Even the picture you have in your 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: mind's eye of it is disrupted, and for that moment 23 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: in time, you've changed the face of that otherwise pristine environment. 24 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: I think, at least in my way of thinking, that 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: sixty years ago in Dallas, Texas, that's kind of what happened. 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: That's what happened on November twenty second when our president 27 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: at time, John F. Kennedy was shot. Because there were 28 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: those times prior to President Kennedy having been assassinated murdered, 29 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: and those times afterwards, and we as a country, I 30 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: think at least my generation marks that time that way. 31 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: Today we're gonna chat about the failures of the medical 32 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: legal system in John F. Kennedy's assassination investigation. I'm Joseph 33 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. Hey, David, do you 34 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: know where I was when John Kennedy was murdered. 35 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: I'm thinking you probably weren't born yet. 36 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: I was in utero. I was in my mommy's tummy 37 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: as it were. Yeah, that's where I was. And still, 38 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: even though you know, I obviously don't have a real 39 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: time connection to that event, so many of my friends 40 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 1: do that are older, and you can talk to those 41 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: folks and say, do you remember where you were when 42 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: the president was murdered, and they will be able to 43 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: tell you just spot on, you know, what they were doing, 44 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: where they were. It's kind of, you know, it's kind 45 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: of like nine to eleven, you know, you ask people, now, 46 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: where were you, what were you doing? And I think 47 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: that it's maybe you could, I don't know, maybe you 48 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: could go back to Abraham Lincoln's time, you know where 49 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: if you could talk to those people that were living 50 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: during that time post Civil war, immediately post Civil War, 51 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: and you ask them where were you when you found 52 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: out that Lincoln died or was murdered, they could probably 53 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: tell you that that's kind of etched into their memory. 54 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: But even now, sixty years later, we've got generations that 55 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: have been born afterwards and people still know the story. 56 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: And I think that it's still haunting us as a nation. 57 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: I think that that's probably an understatement. 58 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: I think it's one of those stories that will never end. 59 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 3: And what you're going to talk about with regard to 60 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: the autopsy, this is the second part of the story 61 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: that people don't know. There are plenty of theories that 62 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: have been bandied about. Most people tell you that they 63 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: don't believe Lee Harvey Alifold actor alone and shot Kennedy 64 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: from behind from the sixth floor of Texas school Book 65 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: Depository building, while others will say many other things and 66 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 3: what they've heard. Let's just start from the moment the 67 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 3: limousine convertible in Dealey Plaza. The President's been shot. If 68 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: we start right there, what took place with the president 69 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 3: of the United States of America. 70 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: Obviously, the most glaring piece of evidence is going to 71 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: be the suppruder film. And I'm talking about just from 72 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: a death investigation perspective, nothing else. We can look at 73 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: that and think we've just witnessed it, you know, the 74 00:04:53,520 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: murder of sitting American president. And to this day there 75 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: are all these questions that exist. And look, people can 76 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: go down the road with a variety of different types 77 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: of scenarios that may or may not happen. But you know, 78 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wanted to do body backs was, 79 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: at least in my own little way, I could perhaps 80 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: introduce some science into things so that people from a 81 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: forensic perspective, so that people could understand, you know, what 82 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: they're seeing, it seems, and that sort of thing and 83 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: try to interpret some of the data that comes in, 84 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: and there was so much. I mean there truly was, Dave, 85 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, in this particular case that was essentially kind 86 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: of bulldozed over for any number of reasons that have 87 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: been put out over the years as rationalees as to 88 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: why we didn't do this, and why we didn't do that, 89 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: and why we did this. And you look back at 90 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: it and you think that if you had just merely 91 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: taken the time to stick with the standard procedure, you 92 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't have all these questions that are left dangling out there, 93 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: these things that people scratch their heads over, people study 94 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: and write books over for years and years afterwards. If 95 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: you had just taken that moment Tom to hit pause 96 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: and to work the case, That's what it comes down to, 97 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: and that's what makes this such a monumental failure to you. 98 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 3: Okay, the standard procedure you're talking about is about the 99 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: autopsy itself, performing the autopsy within the jurisdiction, which was 100 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: not done. According to Texas state law. The standard is 101 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 3: that the autopsy should have been done in Dallas County 102 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: and again per state law, which states in all cases 103 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 3: of accident homicide, suicide and undetermined deaths. The medical examiner 104 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 3: is mandated by Texas law to determine the cause and 105 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 3: manner of death. 106 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: Correct. 107 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, his jurisdiction was that Joe as a death investigator 108 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 3: who should have been in charge of the investigation of 109 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 3: the murder of a man in Dallas, Texas. 110 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: Well the prosecutor for Dallas County. It lays right at 111 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: that individual's feet. And what's really striking about this is 112 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: that they had Dallas County had actually a real gem 113 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: of a person in place for forensic autopsies, a man 114 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: that was for his day in time, was in the 115 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: forefront of well, certainly in the sense of Texas kind 116 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of codifying the standard for death investigation. And let me 117 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,119 Speaker 1: back up just a second, because a lot of people 118 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: don't understand what goes on in Texas relative death investigations. 119 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: You know that. I don't know if we discussed this before, 120 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: but it's kind of an interesting little aside. Traditionally Texas 121 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: not traditionally, Texas does not have corners, all right, they 122 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: actually have the Justice of the Peace is the de 123 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: facto corner in the state of Texas. And prior to 124 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: doctor Earl Rose, who was the forensic pathologist and the 125 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: chief medical examiner, if you will, for Dallas, Texas at 126 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: that time, and he had just taken that office not 127 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: too long before all of this went down. As matter 128 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: of fact, I think it was earlier in nineteen sixty three. 129 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: He just kind of appears doctor Earl Rose, board certified 130 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist. So you're not talking about just some pathologist 131 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: that just walks in off the street that happens to 132 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: do hospital pathology. You're talking about a highly trained individual 133 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: that was a forensic pathologist that had done forensic autopsies, 134 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: that understood wound ballistics and could contextualize everything. And just imagine, 135 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: if you will, You're faced with seemingly probably the most 136 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: daunting murder investigation any Jars diction could possibly be faced with, 137 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: and you have at your literally at your fingertips, access 138 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: to this fantastic forensic mind that is in the hallway 139 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: day of Parkland. Just let that sink in. 140 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 3: To be clear, As you said, Joe Earl Rose was 141 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 3: the medical examiner for Dallas County, Texas at the time. 142 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: However, at the trauma room door. 143 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: Rose was met by the Secret Service and the President's 144 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 3: personal physician, who informed Rose that there was no time 145 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: for an autopsy, and that the body would be transported 146 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: to the airport. Rose objected tried to stand in the way, 147 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: but was reportedly pushed aside by the President's aids, and 148 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 3: the body was transported back to Washington. 149 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: That's what happened. I don't And here's the interesting thing. 150 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: Parkland Hospital where the pros since motorcade went to. It's 151 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: fine hospital and had a reputation as being a fine 152 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: hospital still does. It's teaching hospital. So you had residents there, 153 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, you had people that were working as neurosurgical residents. 154 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: A lot has been made of that because you had 155 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: all these neurosurgeon surgeons that were physically there in the 156 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: trauma room when the president rolled in. Because they called 157 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: a code. Everybody knew the president was in town. And 158 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: this in a hospital, it's like a little town. It 159 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: spread like wildfire. So everybody that was anybody sprinted toward 160 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: the trauma room when the call went up, and he 161 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: was there within just a few minutes. The first shots, 162 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, rang out at right at about 163 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: twelve thirty. It was all said and done in the 164 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: motorcade by twelve thirty. That third shot had wrung out, 165 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: they had to Parkland, and they're on a direct route 166 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: for it. Anyway, that's in the general direction. But in 167 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: secret service types, they know where all the hospitals are. 168 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, before the Secret Service even 169 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: brings a president in the town, they know where all 170 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: the trauma centers are. They lay in a supply of 171 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: the president's blood. Did you know that at all of 172 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: these hospitals where there's a trauma center, they knew where 173 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: Parkland was, and they knew that they were on a 174 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: direct route for it. So when they go under the 175 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: viaduct over the trestle, you know he's got his foot 176 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: in the floor. They're heading toward the er and within 177 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: twenty seven minutes, I think it's twenty seven roughly President's dead. 178 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they've called it at that point. 179 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: So let me ask you Joe was the president based 180 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: on the condition of his body at that moment when 181 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 3: he was shot. Did he die in the limo or 182 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 3: did he actually make it? Was he alive when he 183 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: got to Parkland? 184 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: I think that if he had any kind of. 185 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: Pulse. 186 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: I've used this term before on body bags or agonal respirations, 187 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: which means that your chest is still rising and falling. 188 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: That's going to be at an autonomic level auto meaning 189 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: self where you're on cruise control. Even Abe Lincoln when 190 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: he was shot, Dave, you know, he shot and we 191 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: did a great episode of I think it's great personally, 192 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: but with Lincoln. You know, Lincoln lasted through the night 193 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: and he was shot in an area that transacted you know, 194 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: his brain. It went from I think right right to left. 195 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: The round wound up behind his left eye. I might 196 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: be way off the mark there. Either way, it criss 197 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: crossed across his brain. 198 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: So it's possible that JFK was alive when it techniques. 199 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't speak to the quality of life, but 200 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: he would have had at least maybe agonal respirations. But 201 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: he wasn't long for this world because he sustained at 202 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: minimum two gunshot wounds, and both of them in their 203 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: own right or horribly traumatic. The headshot alone is enough 204 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: to have taken him out just in and of itself, 205 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: because so much was lost, so much disruption took place. 206 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: That's an it's an unsurvivable wound, so you know, but 207 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: they knew that when he rolled in, the fact that 208 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: they were doing heroic efforts We've heard a lot about 209 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: the the tracheotomy that was performed, and I can address 210 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: that too, because that, you know, that plays into this 211 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: whole scenario about you know what, what are you seeing 212 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: there as a clinician when you're assessing when they would 213 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: have made those efforts. They were merely heroic efforts because 214 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: they knew that it was a president and so they're 215 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: trying to establish an airway that implies that they thought 216 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: that there might be a glimmer of hope. I mean, who, 217 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, what physician would want to be the person 218 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: to have to answer to the question of this is 219 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: our president, why didn't you try? And so that they're 220 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: faced with that, and I'm sure and they had to 221 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: have an awareness of that. I don't know about you, Dave. 222 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could. I could necessarily stand 223 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: there and separate my clinical brain from just a person, 224 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: a citizen. And you're standing there over the body of 225 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: the president, guy that you've seen in the news, a 226 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: guy that you've read about in the papers, Camelot. 227 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: His wife is out in the hallway. 228 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, how do you you know, how 229 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: is it that you do that well? In medicine? 230 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: I would not walk out of that room without being 231 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: able to say I did everything I knew and then 232 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 3: made some other stuff up. 233 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: Hope. 234 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're going to leave it all on the field, 235 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: you know, to use a sports metaphor, I mean, you 236 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: don't want to leave anything to question. 237 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: Which is why this bothers me so much that we 238 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 3: have so many questions that we ought not have sixty 239 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 3: years after the fact. There shouldn't be one question about 240 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: what happened to John Fitzgerald Kennedy, President of the United 241 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 3: States of America, leader of the free world, on November 242 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 3: twenty second, nineteen sixty three. There should not be one 243 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: thing we don't know. 244 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: Right you are, Dave, And I'll tell you who did 245 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: know something. It was doctor Earl Rose. He was that 246 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: one person. He was that He was that one individual, 247 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, kind of crying in the dark there shouting 248 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: to whoever would listen, you need to stop. He was 249 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: their first warning along the way to all those in attendance. 250 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: If they had just listened to that man, instead of 251 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: pushing him against the wall, physically threatening him and then 252 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: out those doors with the President's body to get him 253 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: away from there and get him away from an actual 254 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: suitable autopsy. He was that first warning along the way, 255 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: and they failed to listen to him. Earl Rose knew 256 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: that the president had been shot. He responded after the 257 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: code had been called an order, in other words, pronouncement 258 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: had taken place, priests had come down to give last rites. 259 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: He knew. Do you know why he knew, Dave? And 260 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: this is the one thing that really stands out in 261 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: my mind. Earl Rose was officed in the trauma center 262 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: at Parkland. A lot of people don't know that he 263 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: was literally across the hall and he knew what he 264 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: was looking at. He knew that he was looking at 265 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: though it was the President of the United States, he 266 00:16:38,280 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: knew that he was looking at a murder investigation. In 267 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: the business of death investigation, it is profoundly important that medical, 268 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: legal death investigators and forensic pathologists remain that calm, quiet 269 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: voice in the center of the storm where you bring 270 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: scientific reasoning to an otherwise chaotic environment. And I can't 271 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: begin to express to you, Dave. I know that I've 272 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: mentioned his name several times of what a significant moment 273 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: in time it was where you had this man standing 274 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: there telling them that is doctor Rose telling the Secret 275 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: Service and the aids of the President, telling them specifically 276 00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: that by law, by law, this is a murdering investigation. 277 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: It has taken place in Dallas County, we have jurisdiction 278 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: over the body. And Earl Rose years later had said 279 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: that he did not want to create any more of 280 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: a stir in this environment that you know, he saw 281 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: that this thing was escalating beyond his control. And look, 282 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it would be like to try 283 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: to go toe to toe with the US Secret Service 284 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: and the authorities that have rolled into town, associated with 285 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: the highest echelons of the federal government. Are you going 286 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: to be that person? I don't know that I could 287 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: have been. But he warned them. He warned him because 288 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 1: he knew the law. He knew the law in his 289 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: little area of expertise, which is medical legal death investigator. 290 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 3: Right, So he warns them that what they're about to 291 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 3: do is wrong. They're going to do it anyway. But 292 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 3: for those of us who don't understand Joe, it seemed 293 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 3: to me when I was growing up that to take 294 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 3: the president's body because he is the president of the 295 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 3: United States of America, what has happened is a national 296 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: tragedy that his autopsy ought not be left to a 297 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 3: local jurisdiction. It ought to go back to Washington, d C. 298 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: And be dealt with either I'm thinking Walter Read or 299 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 3: Bethesda something. Probably Bethesda because he was a navy man. 300 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 3: But you know, that's what I was thinking along those 301 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 3: lines as the president and all that. But in reality, 302 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 3: there's a reason that's not the case. There's a time 303 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 3: period here there, you do, You doesn't the time of 304 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 3: when you're when you're examining the body of the of 305 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 3: this victim. Now we're dealing with a murder victim, and 306 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: it is a murder that has taken place. It's got 307 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 3: to be solved. A trial would take place in Dallas. 308 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 3: I mean, this is still regardless of who's killed, it 309 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: is still a local crime, correct. 310 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, do you know there was not a statute 311 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: on federal books until sixty five that made the assassination 312 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: of a president of federal offense, So there was not 313 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: actually a law in the books relative to this, And 314 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: that's isn't that odd? Because you know, prior to Kennedy, 315 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: we'd Hadcoln we talked about President Lincoln. We had Garfield 316 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: who was shot, you know in the train station, and 317 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: then we had President McKinley, so we had a history, 318 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, we had a history. And every all, all 319 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: four of these men died as a result of gunshot wounds, 320 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: and the people that were involved in their examinations had 321 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: always consistently been the military up all the way through McKinley. 322 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: McKinley's autopsy was very thorough. I mean it was for 323 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: their time. It was a well done autopsy. I'm thinking 324 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: back right now. Lincoln's was only a partial. They essentially 325 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: examined his head. James Garfield, who probably not to make light, 326 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: but President Garfield died more as a result of his 327 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: treatment that he received. 328 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 3: Treatment, because he lived for a while. He lived for 329 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 3: a while and wrote letters while after he was shot, 330 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 3: he wrote letters and how he was doing. 331 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: Just utter agony. And X rays played played a role 332 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: in his case, just like they play a role in 333 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: President Kennedy's death. Because I think it was Alexander Graham 334 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: Bell introduced the first use of an X ray machine 335 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: relative to Garfield to try to locate this projectile that was, 336 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, still lodged in his body. And what's interesting 337 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: is they when President Garfield was autopsy, they actually took 338 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: out that segment of his spine, and they still have 339 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: that segment of his spine, which I've always found quite 340 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: fascinating as well. So, yeah, that we it's not like 341 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: it's not like we don't have a history. 342 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: There was president Yeah, yeah, there was. 343 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: And still this this this had not been cured. And 344 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: let me just interject something here. Personally, I don't have 345 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: a lot of patience with people Dave that that say 346 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: things like, well, it was a different time back then, 347 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: and their ways were not necessarily the ways of that 348 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: we understand today. Well, let me break this down to you. 349 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Earl Rose actually wound up doing the autopsy on 350 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald, who was the alleged assassin. Remember he 351 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: never went to trial. And in addition to that, doctor 352 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: Rose also did the autopsy on Officer Tibbets, who had 353 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: allegedly died at the hand of Lee Harvey Oswald. And 354 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: on top of that, he did the autopsy on Ruby, 355 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: who died in custody there in Dallas as well. So 356 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: he's connected with all those But but yet, when you 357 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: have the catalyst that kicked this whole thing off with 358 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: the death of the president, he's on the outside looking 359 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: in and that's what's that is what the real tragedy 360 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: is here. The Secret Service are not you know, granted, 361 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: they've got a long history, and their main purpose when 362 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: they were established, I think in the eighteen seventies or 363 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: whatever it was was not personal security for the president 364 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: and the higher ups in government. It was to fight counterfeiting. 365 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: And in that area they're fantastic investigators. But back then 366 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: they're not homicide investigators. That's not what they do. It's 367 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: a specific skill set. 368 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 3: But Joe, let me just the people that actually did 369 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 3: the autopsy. Once they broke all the laws in Dallas, Texas, 370 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 3: once they ruined the investigation and they loaded the body 371 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 3: on the airplane to take it out of love Field 372 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: where he had landed. We've got the picture of Johnson 373 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 3: being sworn in by a judge he appointed, and we've 374 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 3: got Jackie standing there in her bloody outfit basically passing 375 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 3: the torch giving her approval. So there wouldn't be any 376 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 3: question they did that on the plane in Dallas before 377 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 3: they left and got in the air they fly the 378 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 3: body back to Washington, d C. I'm going to assume 379 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 3: that whoever is waiting on this in Washington, DC is 380 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 3: going to be a better, better trained, better doc, better 381 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 3: path thought, better everything than what was existing in Dallas, 382 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 3: Texas at the time. That's my assumption. That's why they're 383 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: doing it. Is that the case. 384 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: You know what they say about assumptions, and that's what 385 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: we're faced with, Dave, and I think that a lot 386 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: of the general public thinks, oh my gosh, yeah, let's 387 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: get him, let's get him back to DC. Well, first off, 388 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: here's the problem. According to what was what has been 389 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: put forth over all the years. And I find this 390 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: very interesting. You're talking about the homicide of a president, 391 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: the murder of a president, and he was not just 392 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: Jackie Kennedy's husband, he was our president. So it has 393 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: been stated that it was the wishes of the widow 394 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: for President Kennedy's body to go to Bethesda because it 395 00:24:54,359 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: was a naval hospital. Okay, And so what difference does 396 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: that make Because at Bethesda you don't have any forensic pathologists, 397 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: but within a stone's throw of Bethesda you have Walter Reid. Well, 398 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: guess what's housed at Walter Reed The Armed Forces Institute 399 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: of Pathology. Guess what's contained within there? The Armed Forces 400 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: version their Division of Forensic Pathology. They they actually had 401 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: established the af I P. I think in uh just 402 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: in the in the years just after World War Two. 403 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, doctor Ed Johnson, who 404 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: was a colonel in the Army, he was head DAVE 405 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: of Forensic Pathology. He was right down the road from 406 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: his place. But yet they chose to have to completely 407 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: unqualified naval physicians at Bethesda do the autopsy. They had 408 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: never either one of them when we get their name straight, 409 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: it was Humes in Boswell. They were both naval physicians. 410 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: They were pathologists working at Bethesda doing what naval pathologists 411 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: at a hospital. Do you know what that is? Looking 412 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: at tumors and making diagnoses on surgical specimens that are 413 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: coming in and oh yet managing the lab. Notice nothing 414 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: in that description I just gave you qualifies them to 415 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: do forensic pathology. And as it turns out, neither one 416 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: of them had ever even done a forensic autopsy period. 417 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: And so you're going to trust arguably what turns out 418 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: to be the most complicated, complex homicide investigation that is 419 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: now being performed on a body that has been removed 420 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: from the jurisdiction where it occurred in a location that is, 421 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: I don't know, just over one thousand miles away. You 422 00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: had to take the body there to have it done 423 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: by two unqualified people. And just to give you like 424 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: a little aside about this, many times what happens with 425 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: a medical examiner's office is that when you're working there 426 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: and you have a trauma case that rolls into like 427 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: a major emergency room. It doesn't have to be a major, 428 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: it can be any emergency room the corner of the 429 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: medical examiner. First off, you'll go to the hospital to 430 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 1: examine the body and interview the physicians that did the treatment. 431 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't until the next morning that these two people 432 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: that did the autopsy on the President's body at Bethesda 433 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: actually spoke with the doctors at Parkland who had rendered 434 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: treatment to the president. At that moment time, they didn't 435 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: have a frame of reference about the now infamous tracheostomy site. 436 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: And people say, well, why would why would they create 437 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: a tracheostomy You've got a gunshot wound. Well, here's why 438 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: you do it that way. If it's in a position 439 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: and this happens with some great frequency, and I can 440 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: tell you why this happens many times, so that they 441 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: don't have to traumatize the body further. All right, So 442 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: you've got a hole, if you will, a bullet hole 443 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: that's just off center. If people will find their larynings 444 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,479 Speaker 1: and kind of find where the Adams apple would be 445 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: and just go slightly below that area right there, and 446 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,719 Speaker 1: it's just off center where this defect was, they created 447 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: a tracheostom site where they could get an airway established. Now, 448 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: this happens a lot. People don't realize this. You have 449 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds to the chest, for instance, people will uh 450 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: the physicians in the trauma room will actually use a 451 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: gunshot wound that's existing in the chest to create they'll 452 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: open it up further to put a chest tube me 453 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: in to get the blood out of the chest. They'll 454 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: do this a lot. It's not that this is an 455 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: uncommon occurrence, but with Humes and Boswel, they had no 456 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: history whatsoever of assessing trauma, ballistic trauma, particularly at that 457 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: point in time. So when they're looking at this defect 458 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: in the mid line of the neck that they know 459 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: is in fact, they believe at least is a gunshot wound, 460 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: they can't factor that into their thinking when they're doing 461 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: their initial exam and of course that's the most important thing, 462 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: and because you lose all frame of reference and the 463 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: other thing that was really odd about this case from 464 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: just a practitioner standpoint, when Boswel and Hume saw the 465 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 1: body of the president, when they initially opened up this 466 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: casket that had like a broken handle on it and 467 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: all this stuff, body was not in a body bag body. 468 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: They described the body as being swaddled, which means it 469 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: was wrapped in sheets, and the president had a big 470 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: bandage over his head, which is not uncommon. I mean, 471 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: they'll do that with these gaping gunshot wounds. They'll wrap 472 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: gauze around the head, that sort of thing to keep 473 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: anything from kind of falling falling out. Ideally, you would 474 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 1: want the body they called them, they didn't call them 475 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: body bags back then, they called them disaster pouches. You 476 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: would want to be able to do that. But they 477 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: didn't apparently choose to do that. They merely put him 478 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: in the casket. They when the president's body arrived at Bethesda, 479 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: when they unswaddled the body, he was nude. There was 480 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: no clothing with the body. And one of the big 481 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: things that came up over the years is that I 482 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: beg everyone that's listening to this, when you take a 483 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: look at the president's suit he's wearing the president, you know, 484 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: you get pictures of him when he's in you know, 485 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: Martha's vineyard with the family, and he's wearing an open collar. 486 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: This man never went anywhere without a tie on, particularly 487 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: in a formal setting. He's riding in a motorcade. This 488 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: is a campaign. The fact that he had a tie 489 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: on and he sustained this gunshot wound to the back 490 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: of the neck that impacted literally the trajectory of this 491 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: round because that's what's referred to as a shored s 492 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: h u r ed wound. There's a lot of tension 493 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: placed over this area, so they could not appreciate what 494 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: defects there were in the clothing at that moment time. 495 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: And it's my understanding that they never actually saw the 496 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: clothing until I might have my date Trill. It seems 497 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: like nineteen sixty six is the first time that they 498 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: ever saw the president's clothing, and it's international archives. 499 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: So this is after the Warrant Commission has come out 500 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 3: with its document on what they say happened, but they 501 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: still have not even touched the clothes match it up 502 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 3: with the wounds they saw. Now you mentioned that that tracheotomy, 503 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 3: that the bullet wound. If you had the shirt and 504 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 3: the you know where it's button with the tie and 505 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 3: all that, what would you be able to tell from that? 506 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: It would be significant because you can track, you can listen. 507 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: Clothing moves independent. I don't care how tight your clothing is. 508 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: The clothing moves independent of the exterior of your body, 509 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: all right. That goes without saying. It doesn't matter how 510 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: tight your vestments are that you have on. And one 511 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: of the things that is brought up by Humes and 512 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: Boswel is that when the president is sitting in the car, 513 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: and we've seen him been there's images of him even 514 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: in the early part of the Suppruder film, his hand 515 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: is raised and he's waving. That's what politicians do in 516 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: the back of cars. They're trying to make a connection 517 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: with the crowd. Well, think about raising your arm and 518 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: you're wearing a shirt or maybe you're wearing a jacket 519 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: right now as you're listening to this, your your clothing 520 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: will act adjust according to the movement of your arms. 521 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: So you're guys that wear sports coats, I know, I 522 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: have to wear them on air a lot. They bunch 523 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: up in the back, you'll create like a crease back there. 524 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: And so if you don't have a full appreciation of 525 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: the position of the individual in the vehicle and to 526 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: try to understand where they were relative to all the 527 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: other individuals in the car, and also the relationship of 528 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: the antier side of the body the neck where you 529 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: have this collared shirt, you lose all perspective. And remember this, 530 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: this bullet now that we're talking about is also known. 531 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 2: As the magic bullet. 532 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: And this is going to go on to create I 533 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: don't know, I think it's seven other wounds or something 534 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: like this in the governor's uh, the governor's body. 535 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 3: It goes into JFK's upper back correct, Yeah, comes out 536 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 3: his throat, makes a right hand turn into his right arm, 537 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 3: It goes into. 538 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: It goes into connolly and and goes through his rib 539 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: and he's seated in a jump seat. That is actually 540 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: the pictures are are deceptive that you see it. 541 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 3: They are those jumpsies are not sitting directly in front 542 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 3: of one another, and they're not watch his hand, watch 543 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: his hand on the hat. 544 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: That gives you an idea of what's going on and 545 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 2: when yeah. 546 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: The trajectory, when that bullet exits the President's throat, it 547 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: does strike Conley, and so it's going to take out, 548 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think one of his ribs. It's gonna 549 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: go down and shatter, you know, his wrist, and eventually 550 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: it's going to come to rest in his left inner thigh. 551 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: So you've got this scene creating like seven different defects 552 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: and making crazy turns and all that sort of stuff 553 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: that many people have opined about over the years. But 554 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: just the clothing alone and not having access to that 555 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: clothing to examine it contextually relative to the injuries that 556 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: you're seeing on the body, It's quite an amazing thing. 557 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: And you know, back in Dallas, you've still got an 558 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: active crime scene back there. And David, I got to 559 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: tell you one thing here that on one image has 560 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: always has always struck me going back to Parkland thinking 561 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: about this, and I listen, don't believe anything I'm saying. 562 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: Go look it up yourself, is what I'm saying to 563 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: my audience right now. There's an image of a what 564 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: appears to be a Secret Service agent in the ambulance 565 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: bay adjacent to the Presidential limo. They have taken the 566 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: trunk is open on the car. They have taken this 567 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: the bubbletop out. Apparently it would fit back there. They've 568 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 1: got the bubbletop now in place on top of the car. 569 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: They're standing there to day with a stainless steel bucket 570 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: and they're washing out the interior of that car at Parkland. 571 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 1: And if you don't believe me, everybody go look at it. 572 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: It's out there. There's an image of this taking place. 573 00:35:53,840 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: And so that car, that car is a crime scene. 574 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: That car is a crime scene. As a matter of fact, 575 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: the whole damn Deeley Plaza was a crime scene, but 576 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: it was not locked down. There were still two bone 577 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: fragments that were found later on that had to be 578 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: brought to Bethesda to be examined that were not discovered 579 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: at that period of time. And those are key because 580 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: what you're talking about is when you begin to think 581 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: about wom ballistics, particularly as they apply to the head 582 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: to piece together this fragmented skull, and trust me, it 583 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: was fragmented. You're talking about a six point five millimeter 584 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: military round that delivers an incredible punch here. If you're 585 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: just talking about the Carcano round alone or any kind 586 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: of high end, high velocity round, the skull is going 587 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: to fragment, and it's in multiple pieces. Even Humes and 588 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: Bibles will talk about when they they didn't even have 589 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: to use the saw on the President's skull to open 590 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: it up, that when they reflected the scalp, the skull 591 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: was particulate, came a part in their hands. So when 592 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: you're trying to assess the skull, one of the things 593 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: that you look for is internal and external beveling, and 594 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: that gives you an indication of where a bullet entered 595 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: entered the skull. It's just like throwing a rock through 596 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: a piece of glass. One side's going to be smooth 597 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: and the other side is not going to be smooth. 598 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things we look for. But unfortunately, 599 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: I think a lot of evidence was left behind and 600 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: now unfortunately we're so far down the tracks, Dave, that 601 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: I don't know that we'll ever be able to answer 602 00:37:38,880 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: some of these questions. Assessment without an assessment, in any 603 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: kind of homicide case, when you cannot gather the facts 604 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: appropriately from the beginning, you can lose so much. And 605 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: the fact that you take arguably one of the most 606 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: complex homicide cases that has been on our radar now 607 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: for sixty years, in the past sixty years, and you 608 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: throw it into the sea of chaos, this political world 609 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: that's all churned up. It's a recipe for a disaster. 610 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: And when the president's body arrived in Bethesda that night 611 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: on Air Force one, with a newly sworn in president 612 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: and a grieving widow, it seems as though that whoever 613 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: was in charge didn't know what they were doing. I 614 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: think that that's as kind as I can be with 615 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: that statement, because it was at that moment time you 616 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: needed to have someone that was fully in charge of 617 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: their faculties trying to understand how to direct people, what 618 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: people should do. And one of the measures of that, 619 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: when you think about forensics is you have to know 620 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: your limitations, and if you don't know what to do, 621 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: you defer to those individuals that do have specific knowledge 622 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: about forensic science, and you defer to them and let 623 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: them handle it. 624 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, the President of the United States of America, they're 625 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 3: trying to rush an autopsy out of state and get 626 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 3: it done as quickly as they can, trying to find 627 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 3: a bullet. 628 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 2: That's what it amounts to. 629 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something? How do you know? 630 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 3: How can you tell where the bullet entered when it's 631 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 3: already in that I mean, they don't look at it 632 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 3: the right way. You don't where do you start without 633 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,399 Speaker 3: if it was done the right way, where would you start? 634 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 2: Joe? 635 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: Well, the most important thing in a case like this, 636 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 1: and just not just not just from trying to track things, 637 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: but also a documentary perspective, are X rays. And they 638 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: did do X rays, and there's been a lot of 639 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: questions about the quality of the X rays that they had. 640 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: And again, the technology then is not necessarily what it 641 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: is today. That's not an excuse. It's just that things 642 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: have been fine tuned since then. We have an expectation 643 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: now with the way we do X rays, they're much 644 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: more fine tuned. If you've got this radio opaque bodies 645 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: that are along the wound track, you can really pick 646 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: up a lot of the little nuanced areas. Back then, 647 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: you necessarily you could not necessarily pick them up the 648 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: way you can now. You could see it, but it 649 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 1: wasn't in as fine detail. So X rays are where 650 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: you start before you ever do anything. And I question 651 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: even how those X rays were performed. You know on 652 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: the president's body. You know, I talked a little while 653 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: ago about the body being swaddled in that sort of thing. 654 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: I really wonder if those X rays were done prior 655 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: to his head being unwound with the bandages they had 656 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: on there. And let me back up just for a 657 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: second here, when you begin to think about what was 658 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: going on at this historic moment in time, when you've 659 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 1: got the body of the commander in chief laying there 660 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: in this autopsy suite in Bethesda, They've got a this 661 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: is a teaching area. They've actually got grand stands in here, 662 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: so there are seats for people to observe. There have 663 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: been some estimates that they're at any one time there 664 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,959 Speaker 1: could have been up to thirty two people in this room. 665 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 1: So you're you, as a physician and anexperienced physician in 666 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: the area of forensic pathology, You're trying to perform a 667 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: task that you've never performed before in front of a 668 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: live audience on the body of the leader of the 669 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: free world. Just let that sink in just for a second. 670 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: You know, I've been around a lot of friends of 671 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: pathologists in my lifetime. I've been very fortunate and blessed 672 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: to have sat it at the feet of some pretty learned, 673 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,479 Speaker 1: learned folks, and one thing you always knew was that 674 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: there was a master and commander in that room, that 675 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,280 Speaker 1: they were in charge, and by God, no one else 676 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: was to be in their period, end of story. And 677 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: that was not the case in that environment. And Humes 678 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: and Bosle both have stated that there was nobody else 679 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: giving them direction in that room. Maybe that's maybe that's so, 680 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: But Dave, I know that you've had an experience, I'm 681 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: sure in your life where you don't have to have 682 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: anything said to you. Merely a look, and you're talking 683 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: about a military organization here, merely a look can convey 684 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: volumes to you within this environment. And so they're having 685 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: to contend with this highly, highly technical undertaking and they're 686 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: doing it under a microscope here, and it's they even 687 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: they realized, I think they be in Basle and Humes 688 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: realized that they were out of their depth. And here's 689 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: why I know this. They reached out knowing that there 690 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:48,839 Speaker 1: was an autopsy that would be performed to AFIP arm 691 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: Forces Institute of Pathology, and they sent over doctor Pierre Fink. 692 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: Now people might not be familiar with doctor Fink, but 693 00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: doctor Fink was a forensic. 694 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 2: Pathologist, ballistic expert. 695 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was actually present in the room, and his 696 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 1: area of expertise is actually wound ballistics. So you've heard 697 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: about all of the studies that have been hinted at 698 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: over the years where the army, the military would conduct 699 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: ballistic test on cadavers, that sort of thing. He's the 700 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: guy that would would look and assess the bodies that 701 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: had been shot, whether they you know, primarily animals, to 702 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,359 Speaker 1: try to determine the effectiveness of weaponry at that point 703 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: in time. And so he he did come to Bethesda 704 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: that night. Here's the interesting little aside. Now, this guy 705 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: who is I guess he is the gold standard when 706 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 1: it comes to ballistic assessment. Prior to him arriving, Humes 707 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: in Boswell had already removed the President's brain. It had 708 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: already been taken out of the cranial vault at that 709 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: moment time. And you know, according to their reports, they 710 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: took the brain and placed it in formulae to fix it. 711 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: Because you don't with brains. Brains are they're an interest. 712 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: They have an interesting consistency there. It's not as soft 713 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: as like a jello. Okay, it's a bit firmer than that. 714 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: But in order to dissect a brain, it needs to 715 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: be firm. So what we normally do at autopsy many 716 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 1: times is you will take the brain and we have 717 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: a way of anchoring it with strings through there's a 718 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: little nerve bundle at the base of the brain where 719 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: the optic nerves come out and all this sort of thing, 720 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: and we can suspend the brain in a bucket of formulae, 721 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: which is a type of formaldehyde, and it's being anchored 722 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: in there with strings. So it's kind of floating in 723 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: this big bucket and you let it set. Some people 724 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: will let it set up to two weeks. And so 725 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: when you take finally take the brain out of this bucket, 726 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: it has a very firm, hard consistency, and so the 727 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 1: dissection has done what it's referred to as bread loafing. 728 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: So you go from the frontal lobe lobes bilaterally of 729 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,439 Speaker 1: the brain and you slice like you're slicing a loaf 730 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 1: of bread, and you can actually flip through it like 731 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: book leaflets almost, or slices of bread, and you can 732 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: appreciate each bit of trauma along the way. Well, that 733 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: was the intent with this, but the brain had already 734 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,760 Speaker 1: been removed from the head prior to Fink arriving. What's 735 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: so tragic about that is that doctor Fink, with his expertise, 736 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: at least at minimum, he could have been standing there 737 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: to see in context what the skull looked like, what 738 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: the brain looked like within the skull, and to have 739 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 1: been able to assess it before it was ever removed. 740 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, if it were my autopsy, 741 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: I would have automatically have deferred to doctor Fink and 742 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: have said, man, you got your scrubs on, you got 743 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 1: your gloves on, come on over here, man, We're gonna 744 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: let you handle this part of the dissection. Because you know, 745 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,919 Speaker 1: people look at the President's autopsy and here's another thing 746 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,799 Speaker 1: that they don't really understand. You know, his autopsy was 747 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: not a complete autopsy. They examined the heart and the lungs, 748 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: but nothing else was examined on the president's body. As 749 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, probably the most critical thing that 750 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:39,800 Speaker 1: still to this day, it just absolutely just absolutely blows 751 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: my mind. The President's neck was never dissected. So at autopsy, 752 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: what we do is when we actually reflect reflect the 753 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: chest essentially is what we do and we literally goes 754 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 1: over the face when we make the famous y incision 755 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 1: that autopsies are known for. Go in then and dissect 756 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 1: out the trachea out of the neck, I mean everything. 757 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: We go all the way up to the tongue, remove 758 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: everything down, and that way we can see all of 759 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: the organs of the neck. And there are multiple vessels 760 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: that run through here. You have the trachea that runs 761 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,400 Speaker 1: through here, the larynx, the tongue, all of the stuff 762 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: that runs through here. You want to be able to 763 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 1: see behind those organs of the neck. You want to 764 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: be able to see the structure of the final column 765 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,359 Speaker 1: at that point in time. I mean, I don't know. 766 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: To me, that's kind of critical. That was never done. 767 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: And Humes was even quoted as saying that, let me see, 768 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: let me get the phraseology right here. I don't want 769 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: to miss quote said. He said it would have been 770 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 1: it would have been a crime. It's the term he 771 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: used to have dissected the president's neck. And I'm thinking, 772 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: have you lost your mind? It would have been a 773 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 1: crime to have dissected his neck. You're talking about an 774 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: individual that had that. You guys are saying, it's got 775 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: a bullet hole that is running through through the neck 776 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: and exits out of the front, and you think that 777 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 1: it would be a crime to remove the organs of 778 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,439 Speaker 1: the neck. Give me a break, Have you lost your mind? Yeah? 779 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: And as it turns out, I think that that goes 780 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: to the bigger picture here, where you're looking at this 781 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: and you're thinking, you know, how could you you know, 782 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,400 Speaker 1: how could you have have just kind of taken this 783 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: so lightly and not done your job? And again they 784 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,319 Speaker 1: defer back to the family's wishes. This is something I 785 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,360 Speaker 1: keep hearing all the way through, and it's kind of 786 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 1: a weasel thing to say when you're in authority over 787 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 1: an autopsy and certainly a homicide investigation of this magnitude, 788 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: and you're saying, well, we're going to stick with the 789 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,720 Speaker 1: family's wishes. But he was also everybody's president. And now, 790 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: sixty years later, because such a poor job was done, 791 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: I don't know that, you know, looking back recor respectively, 792 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,400 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would have wanted to 793 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 1: have had a more thorough autopsy. You jump you jump forward, Dave, 794 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: We'll see that was in sixty three. You jump forward 795 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:17,799 Speaker 1: to sixty eight. The President's the president's brother Bobby was 796 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: at the Ambassador. He had just given this fantastic speech. 797 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: He's going through the kitchen at the Ambassador Hotel and 798 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: he is assassinated by Sir and Suren. And to give 799 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,960 Speaker 1: you an idea how how much things had changed between 800 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 1: sixty three and sixty eight. As you well know, that 801 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 1: took place in Los Angeles County. Well, who was the 802 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,320 Speaker 1: chief medical examiner slash corner. It was doctor Tom to Go. 803 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,759 Speaker 1: He's one of my heroes, as you know. And the 804 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 1: family had told the folks with La County at that 805 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: point in time, look up, yeah, we don't really need 806 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 1: need the autopsy. We know what killed him. Doctor Nogucci said, 807 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,439 Speaker 1: you know what, I think. We're going to go ahead 808 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,000 Speaker 1: and do an autopsy, and not only going to do it, 809 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: but when I do it, I'm going to have like 810 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: five forensic pathologists in the room with me. He actually 811 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: to show you how thorough doctor Noguchu. And just so 812 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 1: the people understand, Bobby Kennedy's autopsy has been named in 813 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,800 Speaker 1: it has been cited a couple of times as the 814 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: most thorough forensic autopsy that's ever been conducted. Just let 815 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: that sink in compared to what happened to the President's body. 816 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,960 Speaker 1: Forensic pathology, medical, legal death of us. Such a small community, 817 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,279 Speaker 1: even though we didn't know in sixty eight what we 818 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 1: know now. People talk, all right, and Nogucci would have 819 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: been fully aware of the rumor. Meal he would have 820 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 1: heard about what had gone on in Bethesda that night. 821 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,439 Speaker 1: He not only reached out to AFIP and had them 822 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 1: send people. Doctor Fink was present for Bobby's autopsy in LA. 823 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,440 Speaker 1: That's quite fascinating when you look at that, you know, 824 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:15,520 Speaker 1: in its totality, you think about how much the how 825 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 1: much things had changed just in that period of time. 826 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: And I never want to hear anybody say that, you 827 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,759 Speaker 1: know that they didn't know any better at the time 828 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: of the President's assassination, that it was you know, well, 829 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,879 Speaker 1: one pathologist is just as good as any other pathologists. No, 830 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 1: that's not the case, because Earl Rose had been doing 831 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:44,279 Speaker 1: homicide autopsies in Dallas. Uh, there were as a matter 832 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:50,279 Speaker 1: of fact, let's just say for the sake of argument that, okay, 833 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:54,120 Speaker 1: going back to d C with the President's remains was 834 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: a good idea, which you could never convince me that 835 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:04,799 Speaker 1: it is or was within an hour, within an hour's 836 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,640 Speaker 1: plane flight. You could have had, arguably at that point 837 00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: time in sixty three, you could have had the top 838 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: forendsic pathologist in the country standing in DC there to 839 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: do that autopsy. But yet you choose to go down 840 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:26,239 Speaker 1: this path utilizing two naval physicians who I'm sure were 841 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: fine hospital pathologists, but not for this particular case. You 842 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: could have had Milton Helpern. You could have had doctor 843 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: Fisher who was in Baltimore. You could have had Werner 844 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: Spitz who was in Detroit. You could have had literally 845 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 1: a pantheon. There's a pantheon of these forensic pathologists that 846 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,200 Speaker 1: are out there that were practicing at the time that 847 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,920 Speaker 1: now we look back and if in forensic pathology, if 848 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,440 Speaker 1: we had a mount rushmore, these guys' faces would be 849 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,640 Speaker 1: on it. But yet you chose not to do that. 850 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 1: You chose to go down this path. And this is, 851 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, my my little slice of the pie here 852 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: from a medical legal standpoint, it's just a small portion 853 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 1: of the overall case, you know, relative to how the 854 00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,479 Speaker 1: president's murder was handled. I hate calling an assassination. Yeah, 855 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,240 Speaker 1: it was an assassination, but that's such a political term. 856 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, you're talking about a murder, 857 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: a murder that occurred in Dallas County, Texas. 858 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,240 Speaker 3: A husband and father was taken away from his family 859 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,320 Speaker 3: and they didn't get answers. They had to have been haunted. 860 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 3: But Joe, this is one of the things that goes 861 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,360 Speaker 3: that feeds the conspiracy. I want to ask you about 862 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 3: the wounds. Were any of the other wounds he's sustain 863 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,600 Speaker 3: Were they life threatening other than the head shot? 864 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,280 Speaker 2: Was the back the shot to the back? Was it deadly? 865 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: I don't, well, Gee, Dave, I don't know because the 866 00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 1: neck wasn't dissected, you know. And again, I know, you 867 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,960 Speaker 1: know I'm being flipped by saying that, but you know, 868 00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: when you know, I would love to be able to 869 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,320 Speaker 1: answer that question, and I think that many people would 870 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,160 Speaker 1: would like an answer to that question definitively. But if 871 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: you're looking at this from the perspective of, you know, 872 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,200 Speaker 1: gee whiz, I wish we had time to go back 873 00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 1: and get a do over, there are no mulligans in 874 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,680 Speaker 1: forensic pathology. You don't get a do over. You get 875 00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:31,040 Speaker 1: to do it the first time. When people are quick 876 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,239 Speaker 1: to say again, I have to emphasize this point, well, 877 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,640 Speaker 1: they didn't do things back then like they do them now. 878 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:42,640 Speaker 1: It's unfair to judge that they we're talking about we're 879 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 1: talking about the same generation that within five years would 880 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,560 Speaker 1: put a man on the moon. Are you kidding me? 881 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:54,800 Speaker 1: You're not intellectually sophisticated enough, medically sophisticated enough at this 882 00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,040 Speaker 1: point in time to understand the gravity of what you're 883 00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,920 Speaker 1: in the middle of, that you're going to allow people 884 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,560 Speaker 1: to make decisions driven by emotion at that moment, Tom 885 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: is beyond the pale. I don't think that there's any 886 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,680 Speaker 1: There was no excuses then, there's still no excuses today 887 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:14,719 Speaker 1: for because now you've left this generation and generations to 888 00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:18,520 Speaker 1: come without any solid answers. And Dave, I don't know 889 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:22,960 Speaker 1: that we'll ever have any conclusive answers as time goes on. 890 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,319 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks